31 May 2008

2482) “Denying” Fake Genocide: 5 Years in Jail by Michael van der Galien

If you can’t prove yourself to be right about historical events, simply lock up those who dare disagree with your twisted version of what happened. This is what Armenians and their racist (anti-Turk) allies are trying to do throughout the world; they don’t want people to talk about the facts, they don’t want people to take the Turkish side into account. Once people do, they may very well come to the conclusion that the issue isn’t as simple as the Armenians pretend… and once that happens, Armenians will have no chance whatsoever of getting money or lands.

Slovakia’s Justice Minister said: “The Armenian Genocide is the most outrageous crime against humanity.”

Really? What about the crimes committed by the Greek against the Muslims / Turks? What about the massacres of Turkish Muslims by the Armenians well before, during, and after World War I (and thus before, during and after the relocations which are dubbed “genocide” these days)?

And if we want to look at other parts of the world, what about the holocaust. You know, when innocent people were purposefully killed by the government, in an attempt to wipe out an entire race (unlike what happened to the Armenians; they were, firstly, not innocent, and there was, secondly, no government controlled effort to wipe them out)?

I am starting to sincerely hope that my own government adopts a law like it as well, and that I will have to defend myself and my views in court. There is no doubt in my mind that I and people who agree with me will win such a lawsuit with ease.

Which is, of course, why racist Armenians refuse to take their case to an international court; they know that if objective, non-racist and independent judges have to rule about this matter, they will most likely conclude that what happened does not constitute genocide.

Luckily, there are more sensible ministers in Slovakia. The country’s foreign minister, Jan Kubis, said that ‘the Slovakian parliament’s decision in 2004 does not represent the line of the government. Speaking at a joint news conference in the Slovak capital with his counterpart, Turkish Foreign Minister Ali Babacan, Kubis said he would take up the matter with Justice Minister Stefan Harabin, adding history should be treated by historians, not politicians.’

“I will discuss this matter with the Slovakian justice minister and members of the government. I believe history must be left to historians. We know the sensitivity of the Turkish public opinion on this matter and will not permit this topic to place a shadow on good relations between Turkey and Slovakia,” he said.

Babacan reiterated Turkey had proposed to Armenia the establishment a joint historical committee to study the incidents of 1915 and open all archives; however, Yerevan has yet to give a positive response to the offer.


“Without any evidence, Turkey cannot accept any allegations,” he added.

And that’s exactly what’s missing: evidence for the Armenian thesis. They don’t have any. They only have forgeries, lies, and selective quoting to rely on. O, and propaganda and prejudiced writings, of course.

Turkey, unlike the Armenian racists, isn’t afraid to deal with this subject in an honest and open manner. Turkey knows that when people truly study this subject, they cannot come to any other conclusion that, although what happened to both Armenians and Turks, was terrible, neither deaths constitute genocide and that the Ottoman government was acting in self-defense when it decided to deport the Armenian population of (Eastern) Anatolia.
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1
Claudia
May 31, 2008

Turkey, unlike the Armenian racists, isn’t afraid to deal with this subject in an honest and open manner

Sorry, what? I know I risk your ire by even slightly dissenting on this subject, but I will not accept the prior statement since it is demonstrably false.

Until Turkey does away with the "anti-Turkishness" laws that, amongst other things, are used to persecute those who advocate that the killings of Armenians was genocide, they have no moral high ground from which to condemn the contrary offense.

For the record I think both advocating that it was or advocating that it wasn’t genocide should be perfectly legal, and I think existing European laws outlawing Holocaust denial are abhorrent and wrong.

2
Michael van der Galien
May 31, 2008

Until Turkey does away with the "anti-Turkishness" laws that, amongst other things, are used to persecute those who advocate that the killings of Armenians was genocide, they have no moral high ground from which to condemn the contrary offense.

This is something that’s repeated time and again by anti-Turkish racists, but that doesn’t make it any more true. The law wasn’t meant to cause that - although it has sadly result in a few cases about it. That’s why the article is indeed thrown overboard / changed significantly now.

Those of you who never visited Turkey may fall for the fake-ass rhetoric of the Armenian racists, but those who have actually been to Turkey know that books that say that what happened constitutes genocide are for sale in Turkish bookshops. Scholars who believe it was genocide are allowed to speak in Turkey. Those that have been there also know that those who believe it was genocide can say so publicly and openly.

Art. 301 is, in itself, a limit to the freedom of speech which should be removed, but it’s not designed to make it impossible for people to say that they think that what happened constitutes genocide, nor is it (often) applied in that manner.

O, and it’s being changed already. Why do the Turks change it? Because it has been abused by nationalists.

So it’s time to drop that line, that argument, from the list I’d say.

3
AAAs
May 31, 2008

and what evidence do you have that all Armenians are racist??? idiot.

4
Michael van der Galien
May 31, 2008

Obviously not all Armenians, but many are yeah. My evidence? Read other posts about this issue here and then the comment sections. Also read some books written by Armenians on the region and Turks.

Of all the peoples in the world, the Armenian diaspora is easily the most racist and hateful. Of course they were already like that well before World War I started and it has only increased afterwards. Overly nationalistic, racist, haters. That basically sums up the Armenian Diaspora, especially its leaders.

5
Claudia
May 31, 2008

Of all the peoples in the world, the Armenian diaspora is easily the most racist and hateful. Of course they were already like that well before World War I started and it has only increased afterwards. Overly nationalistic, racist, haters. That basically sums up the Armenian Diaspora, especially its leaders.

Michael, you are characterizing a whole people as hateful and racist. Do you not see that that itself is prejudiced? Do you really not understand that when you say "Armenians are racist" you are doing precisely what you are accusing them of doing? You do not better your case by reacting with outright hostility to the slightest bit of dissent or saying that anyone with a differing point of view is "under the influence" of "Armenian propaganda", you in fact make yourself out to be a propagandist.

6
Paul
May 31, 2008

I can’t even believe the kind of talk coming out of Michael’s posts anymore. I used to post here and watched as Michael went from being rather biased to completely biased to now what we see as so off the deep end he can’t see his own hypocracy. Hypocracy. That’s exactly what this is- to the point it is so sad it’s actually funny. He’d probably deny his own racism against Armenians by saying he has no problem with any Armenian who sees the "truth" on this issue, but seeing as all Armenians know 1915 to be something more than what Michael claims it is (with or without letting the g-word and its connotations get in the way) he has no qualms in thusly calling them all racist. The last time he wrote about Armenians the same point was brought up, he accuses Armenians of being racist stereotypers which is OBVIOUSLY a racist stereotyping in itself! Now he tries to validate that by claiming random things he has seen written by Armenians online is completely valid basis for all of his obviously racist positions. Is this seriously a professional blog? It’s an absolute hate-spewing circus!
All I can say is I hope the Turks DON’T pay you for this kind of propaganda because they sure aren’t getting their money’s worth! In fact I’d be less surprised to hear you are actually being paid by Armenians because if the Turkish government’s stance had any creditibility to begin with (which I doubt) you are simply making an utter embarrassment of them and those who support them.

7
Michael van der Galien
May 31, 2008

Michael, you are characterizing a whole people as hateful and racist. Do you not see that that itself is prejudiced? Do you really not understand that when you say "Armenians are racist" you are doing precisely what you are accusing them of doing

No, the Armenian diaspora tends to be highly racist. It’s not ‘racist’ to mention the obvious. Unless you find "many of you are racist" to be equal to "Turks are Barbarian animals" of course.

You do not better your case by reacting with outright hostility to the slightest bit of dissent or saying that anyone with a differing point of view is "under the influence" of "Armenian propaganda", you in fact make yourself out to be a propagandist.

You are under their influence. You even told me a while ago that you understood my point but still believe it’s genocide. Why, have you done any serious research (you admitted you had not)? Did you read the Ottoman Archives? No. Did you read the run-up to the World War, to the relocations, what Armenians did, and what the Great Powers did? Probably not. But still you said you think it was probably genocide.

Why? Because Armenians and their allies have repeated it time and again.

Hypocracy

You can’t even spell the word correctly.

The last time he wrote about Armenians the same point was brought up, he accuses Armenians of being racist stereotypers which is OBVIOUSLY a racist stereotyping in itself!

Nice try, again. So how about you objecting to the "denialist" term? Or "barbarians" as used so frequently by your fellow Armenians? Right.

It’s an absolute hate-spewing circus!

Yes, because anyone who dares disagree with your vile lies, distortions and anti-Turkish propaganda is a ‘hater.’

All I can say is I hope the Turks DON’T pay you for this kind of propaganda because they sure aren’t getting their money’s worth! In fact I’d be less surprised to hear you are actually being paid by Armenians because if the Turkish government’s stance had any creditibility to begin with (which I doubt) you are simply making an utter embarrassment of them and those who support them.

Funny that you felt the necessity to respond nonetheless and that your fellow Armenians have organized against me on the Internet. On the other hand, you guys also do that to Bernard Shaw, Guenter Lewy, and so on (historians), so I should be not be amazed.

Hey Paul, you guys learned your style from Goebbels?

O, and just to make this clear: there are a lot of reasonable Armenians out there, even in the Diaspora… but they don’t speak out. Their extremist fellow-Armenians do, however.

On the other hand, many, many Armenians are indeed racist. That’s what happens if you indoctrinate your children with hatred for decades and even a century. Perhaps you all should stop teaching your children that Turks are evil, barbarians, animals, the antichrist, etc. Then we’ll talk again.

Claudia: you can compare the way the Armenian Diaspora behaves and teaches its children to how children in Palestine are raised with regards to Israel / Jews. The indoctrination is similar; sure, on a lesser scale, but still very serious and very racist.

8
kamal
May 31, 2008

you are just another denialist, say it and save yourself from all these nonsense words. whenever you need, you just hide behind holocaust and try to ignore facts. racists armenians exist as there are rasict turks and rasict israelis.
you are to attached to turkey and turks to see the truth.

9
Michael van der Galien
May 31, 2008

you are just another denialist

Whoppa.

Keep repeating it brother! It’ll work if you do so for the next 5 years; then people who don’t know what they’re talking about will also call those who dare disagree with your idiotic interpretation of history as ‘denialists.’

Lord knows it worked with the term ‘genocide.’

10
kamal
May 31, 2008

oh i see your interpretation of history isnt idiotic?
you are a funny joker and you do a good job here. keep doing it. Glory to you and your work. who dares to challenge you in your "patriotic" country, those who dare, shot dead in streets of istanbul. more glory to you bro.

11
Michael van der Galien
May 31, 2008

those who dare, shot dead in streets of istanbul. more glory to you bro.

Dink was murdered, which was horrible, but the guilty ones are being punished.

On the other hand, you merry people killed innocent Turkish people and historians in the 1970 and after that. Blowing up the home of a professor, diplomats murdered… all by Armenian terrorists.

Perhaps you guys should starting talking about that.

12
Alan
May 31, 2008

Deleted due to lies

13
kamal
May 31, 2008

deleted due to racism.

14
R
May 31, 2008

I agree with Claudia. Speech should not be criminalized. Even offensive speech. So laws imposing penalties for genocide or holocaust denial are the wrong way to go.

The Article 301 reforms are cosmetic and have been generally criticized.
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=26852

It is truly unfortunate when someone is reduced to slandering an entire people in the following terms: ‘Of all the peoples in the world, the Armenian diaspora is easily the most racist and hateful.’

15
kamal
May 31, 2008

i am so sorry for you:)

16
Michael van der Galien
May 31, 2008

It is truly unfortunate when someone is reduced to slandering an entire people in the following terms: ‘Of all the peoples in the world, the Armenian diaspora is easily the most racist and hateful.’

Yes, because the Armenian Diaspora is an entire people, isn’t it?

And… I’m afraid they are, yeah. Even among the Japanese (notoriously racist towards other Asians) racism isn’t this explicit.

Hateful, racist, anti-Muslim, aggressive. That sums up the leaders of the so-called Armenian Diaspora.

17
kamal
May 31, 2008

admin: banned for arguing with admins & falsely accusing them of crimes

18
war for genocide
June 1, 2008

[…] […]

19
nevber
June 1, 2008

Why is the Armenian archives still such mystery to the world. Why do they insist on keeping it locked up? Because the truth is NOT on their side…. "Armenian Genocide" is a concocted historical BS by the Empires of World War 1 namely the British, French and the Russians…

20
Victor
June 1, 2008

I am not very clear why so many get excited by the gibberish of this moron - "Michael" (more like yet another sick version of mustafa). The difference b/w him and murderers who committed the Genocide is that he speaks English and has an internet access. No reasoning would ever appeal to such desperately narrow-minded racists stuck in "identity crisis" and "inferiority complexes". Can you imagine how much his life sucks being a Turk and living in Wester Europe? Denying the Genocide, nationalism and hatred are the natural outlet for his frustration. Let him be… Instead, I’d be more willing to spend my time discussing Turkish-Armenian affairs with progressive, bright and educated Turks - there are plenty of them, too. I encourage to follow my advise.

21
Alan
June 1, 2008

admin: personal attacks = delete

22
nevber
June 1, 2008

ARMENIA open up your archives…! Do not hide behind the powers of the world….

23
Paul
June 1, 2008

"Hateful, racist, anti-Muslim, aggressive. That sums up the leaders of the so-called Armenian Diaspora."

Which is why Armenians live thoughout the Middle East peacefully in numerous Muslim countries including Syria, Iran, Iraq (well no longer peacefully but you get the point), Lebanon (at least half Muslim, Armenians played an integral role in holding the country together during the Civil War), Jordan, Egypt, and the Gulf States. Your attempts to slander Armenians with such broad terms as "racist", anti-Muslim, or anything else just doesn’t hold water and your unabashed stereotyping Armenians (and merely limiting it to the diaspora as a way of claiming you aren’t racist against all Armenians is a cop-out as the majority of Armenians are in the diaspora to begin with and make up millions of people) is embarrassing for someone purporting to run a professional blog as it is anything but.

24
nevber
June 1, 2008

The issue is not weather the Armenians or the Turks are more racist. The point is, there are wonderful peace full and tolerant on and racist, mean and thick headed people on both sides. In fact in every race, color and human grouping there exists both. We are all getting lost in the nitty gritty as usual. The point is, Turkey has been honest in opening up it’s archives and wanting true and open scholarly discussion for years. But for some reason, (obvious to many Turks) the Armenians or Armenian community or the actual country has been trying every trick in the book to run away from such dialogue. This is the issue. We should be able to talk with out getting angry, accusing each other or being "deniers", "racist", "haters", "not wanting to hear decent" etc etc… the same old stuff I read in every BLOG that exists on this issue. Now, Turks feel one way, Armenians feel another. So instead of accusing each other of nonsense and same old rhetoric, we should be able to openly discuss history with out fear. Both sides need to face up to their wrong doing during their period. This maybe a shock to a lot of people…. But If Armenia was more forth coming, none of these issues would even escalate to what it is now. Long ago, there would have been an agreement between both cultures.

25
Deniz
June 1, 2008

True, it should not be a crime to speak freely in any country. If someone wants to say “It was genocide”, let them say it anywhere. And, if they believe it was not genocide, let them speak their mind, too.

But can they utter the latter opinion in any country? Let me tell you where they cannot say it freely: France and Switzerland. Are you surprized? Well-known historian Professor Bernard Lewis was tried for saying that what happened to the Armenians could not be classified as genocide was found guilty of being a denialist, and was punished (for a token sum) a few years ago in France. A
Turkish scholar, Dogu Perincek, was tried in a court of law for saying the same thing in Switzerland just a few months ago. He, too, was found guilty of the same crime.

Let’s stop setting up double standards and change the restriction on free speech in all the countries, not just in Turkey.

Deniz

26
Hally
June 1, 2008

Armenians are wise to remember: you reap what you’ve sown.

Michael has been writing about this issue for a long time. He’s written thoughtful long dissertations citing primary and other sources that disprove claims by the Armenian diaspora.

Yet, time and time again, Armenians have posted hateful, racist and disgusting diatribes against Michael and those who leave comments supporting Michael’s work, with some Armenians going so far as to leave threats against his person or family.

Michael’s experiences with Armenians who post on his blog has been open to the public for observation, and no one but Armenians posting here are to blame that it is not flattering for Armenians as a whole. Perhaps those who post vicious and slanderous material against Michael, rather than engaging in civilized debate and challenging his notions on an intellectual level should think twice before posting their very public ad hominem attacks.

In light of his experience with the Armenians that post here is it any wonder that Michael’s position against the Armenian line has hardened? Hardly.

I had no notion of this issue before reading Michael’s posts and I’m disinclined to support the Armenian position because it appears to be based on some form of virulent hatred that goes beyond racism rather than fact.

I also find the notion that Armenians praise laws against the freedom of speech and freedom of thought and intellectual pursuit highly reprehensible and contrary to the norms of democracy we in the west value.

Those who silence debate and discourse, or praise such actions, can go live in a totalitarian regime and enjoy dictatorship in all its forms (try Myanmar), but do not think to obtain support by trying to impose such Orwellian values here.

27
Kemal
June 1, 2008

The true face of genocide claims, virulent hatred and racism:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUdLgof56Bw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiYsgpJY48c

This speech was given before a "mainstream" diaspora organization the primary purpose of which is to lobby the U.S. Congress. It’s not flattering… at one point, the speaker calls Turks "dogs".

28
zekiye
June 1, 2008

I wonder how easily people who advocate human rights, peace and freedom of speech forgot all the following: Did the Armenians not establish outlawed terrorist organizations ASALA, JCAG (Justice Commandos for Armenian Genocide) and ARA (Armenian Revolutionary Army) and did they not perform dozens of murders and hundreds of terrorist activities? Because of these Armenian terrorist organization’s activities, did 70 people not die (39 of whom being innocent Turkish diplomats); were 524 people not wounded; were 105 not pledged? Additionally did these organizations not perform 208 bombing activities during 1975-1986? Then, they did not stop; they only passed on their trade to kill Turkish people to the PKK.

What did the American Armenians do when Armenian Yanikyan, who murdered the Turkish diplomats Mehmet Baydar and Bahadir Demir in Santa Barbara, California and surrendered the police (and inspired the formation of ASALA afterwards) ? The Armenians gathered around the district and SALUTED the murderer!!

The Armenian criminal of Orly Airport massacre, Karapetyan, a member of ASALA, who was imprisoned for 18 years but set free by France, Armenians’ ally in crime, returned to Armenia in May 2001, he was welcomed by the then Armenian prime minister A.Margaryan, the Armenian folk and journalists who applauded him as if he were a national hero. A. Margaryan told that he appreciated this hero’s service for his country. Armenian Yerivan municipality provided work and house for the MURDERER (www.prima-news.ru/news/articles/2001/9/13/15705.html)

A monument of Tehleryan, the murderer of Talat Pasha was erected in Yerivan in 2006 (Milliyet March 17,2006 and Agos March 24, 2006).

Mourad Topalian, ex-leader of Armenian National Committee of America was sentenced to 36 months in prison for his complicity in bombing the Turkish mission at the United Nations. In spite of this, he was not labeled a terrorist by Armenian Americans.

In the lecture of Richard G Hovannisian, held in Florida Atlantic University, on April 2, 2008, one Armenian woman told that the Armenians should have killed more Turkish diplomats!

The inadequacy of the international community to give honest and evidence-based responses to the massacres inflicted upon Turks/Muslims by the Armenians in Anatolia in the 1st World War, and its tolerance to aforementioned Armenian terrorism, led the Armenians to perform new Turkish massacres during their invasion of the Azerbaijani territory in 1992. The genocide of the Azarbaijani Turks by the Armenians in Hocali was witnessed by the European journalists: One woman’s fingers were plucked and two men’s skins were flayed. (The Economist March 7, 1992, p.48), some were burned, some of the bodies were destroyed (New Republic Vol 206, No 14, April 6, 1992, p.11); more than 1000 Azarbaijani Turks were massacred (‘Faces of Massacre’ Newsweek, March 16, 1992; ‘Massacre by Armenians Being Reported’. The New York Times, March 3, 1992)].

Here are other examples showing that the Armenians have adopted the language of violence as a life style:

The Armenians committed sabotage upon the house of American historian Stanford J Shaw just because he declared that Armenian genocide did not occur in 1977. They also murdered their own chairman of assembly Karen Demirciyan and prime minister Vazgen Sarkisyan in the Armenian Parliament building, in 1999. (http://raufray.worldpress.com/2008/03/14/armenianterror)

Turkish prime minister, Assembly several times suggested Armenia to discuss these events together with historians from both sides and even historians from other countries. Armenia persistently refused. By making the parliaments pressure to pass genocide resolutions, Armenia aims to bypass historical realities and wants to escape from facing with its own history unlike Turkey.

Therefore, people and countries who support Armenia in its policy, foster and approve violence which had become Armenian national language, instead of supporting dialogue and peace for other countries.

PC: But, when Hrant Dink was murdered, Turkish people, president, all members of goverment, bureaucrats from all levels, journalists sincerely mourned and condemned the murderer. Millions of Turkish citizens gathered in his funeral ceremony and shouted as ‘we are all Armenian’ with tears. Including the annual Press Freedom Award of Turkish Journalist Association, Hrant Dink was awarded with many prizes, after his death.

29
gary
June 1, 2008

[admin]: Deleted for personal insult, stupidity and horrible Spanish, all in 6 words!

30
zekiye
June 1, 2008

Genocide is the greatest crime of humanity and International Court of Justice or domestic courts are the only authorities reserved to prosecute and proclaim genocide according to the 1948 UN Convention. Therefore, accusing a whole nation and its generations as criminals of genocide requires strong historical and legal proofs and supports. Turkish historians, Turkish prime minister and Turkish Assembly several times suggested Armenia to discuss the events which occured in the WWI together with historians from both sides and even historians from other countries.

The Armenians have neither applied to international courts nor accepted to discuss these events in joint commissions made up of historians from Armenia, Turkey and other countries. The claim of the Armenians that international scholars support their thesis is thus meaningless. Does one not ask them ‘then why they fiercefully reject to present their very strong evidences supported by thousands of international scholars to historical commissions made up of Armenian, Turkish historians, in addition to historians from other nations’. If they really believed that they were supported by the scholars of the world, then why are they afraid of proving their thesis? The other reason why the Turks and Turkish governments do not accept the label of genocide is that the Turkish documents and family stories the Turkish people heard from their own grandparents do not comply with an Armenian genocide. The Ottoman Archives demostrate that:* the Armenians inflicted massacres upon Turks/Muslims from the beginning of 1890’s; *that when the deportation were under way, the Armenians of the big cities (and Catholic and Protestant Armenians) were exempted;* that officials who were found faulty during the deportations were court marshalled in early 1916 (out of 1673 who stood in court, 67 were given death sentences, 524 jail term, 68 row boat and monetary punishments by Talat Pasha government, before we lost the war);* that in December 1918, a new law letting the Armenians return their homes and claim their properties was issued and that many of them returned their homes (According to Armenian Church in Istanbul a total of 644,000 people returned back from exile. Children were returned to their parents. In a report presented by Aneurin Williams, chief of English-Armenian Committee, to Lord Curzon it was reported that many immigrants who were forced to migrate in 1915 returned to Cilicia from Syria, Palastine and Egypt after the Mondros Armistice (UK ARCHIVES, FO 608/278);*that those who returned their homes cooperated with the French and English armies and fought in these armies individually wearing their uniforms during the Turkish Freedom War and *that the documents presented by the Armenians to support their views are full of forgeries. Apparently, the Armenians are afraid of anything which may question the reliability of the scenario they created. And they are afraid of anything which may lead their children who had already been filled with Turkish hatred, to question the reliability of the history written by their parents and to discard this hatred. Perhaps, hatred serves as something which hinders them to face with their own ancestor’s faults. Refer to Line Abrahamian’s article in the Readers digest. http://www.readersdigest.ca/mag/2006/10/hate_to_hope.php. She says hatred is OK if it involves Turks.

Hatred is the major nutrient the Armenians are fed, so they are afraid of getting rid of it. And as long as the public opinion supports Armenia on its biased and fake thesis, it will have fostered hatred and thereby violence and taken the responsibility of destroying world peace. Is it what the world’s public opinion wish?

31
nevber
June 1, 2008

Gary , you are playing the 3 monkeys very well. "I do not hear", "I do not see", "I do not speak"….. that kind of sums up the Armenian diaspora… You are a good representative… Well done! Keep on hiding under your HATE. Because, with out that hate, the Armenian diaspora will not survive. The only thing that keeps you together is the hate of the Turks! What a sad… sad…. situation for your community…

32
Vilen
June 2, 2008

Nonsensical article. There is not a single point that even worth refuting. Makes absolutely no sense for all those who even hardly knows history.

33
P. Connolly
June 2, 2008

Response to post #32:
True to form, when Armenian Propagandists find themselves unable to defend their lies, they attack their ideological opponents. We have seen it time and time again here on this gazette. Or to put it as Michael puts it, simply lock up your opponents if you get the opportunity to seduce vote-hungry politicians into passing such a law. ANYTHING to avoid the risk of having your lies publicly exposed!!

34
Beemer
June 2, 2008
PROPAGANDA ARTICLE!!!

Armenian Genocide is a fact and the world knows it.

35
Lucrèce
June 2, 2008

« In the entire region from Bitlis through Van to Bayezit, we were informed that the damage and destruction had been done by the Armenians, who, after the Russians retired, remained in occupation of the country and who, when the Turkish army advanced, destroyed everything belonging to the Musulmans. Moreover, the Armenians are accused of having committed murder, rape, arson and horrible atrocities of every description upon the Musulman population. At first, we were most incredulous of these stories, but we finally came to believe them, since the testimony was absolutely unanimous and was corroborated by material evidence. For instance, the only quarters left at all intact in the cities of Bitlis and Van are Armenian quarters […] while the Musulman quarters were completely destroyed. »
Report of Captain Emory H. Niles and Mr. Arthur E. Sutherland Jr. on Trip of Investigation through Eastern Turkish Vilayets, Istanbul, 1919 : http://louisville.edu/a-s/history/turks/Niles_and_Sutherland.pdf

« Turkish crimes, observed Arnold Toynbee in 1922, “are undoubtedly exaggerated in the popular Western denunciations, and the similar crimes committed by Near Eastern Christians in parallel situation are almost always passed over in silence.”
The Turkish side has published the testimony of Muslims villages from the areas of Van, Bitlis and Mush, who are said to have survived armenian massacres.
[…]
Similar accounts can be found in published documents from Turkish archives. a district governor reported on March 4, 1915, that local armenians, in concert with armenians volunteers in the Russian army, had murdered forty-two men and thirteen women in the Merhehu. They had raped, cut off breasts, burned a baby in an oven, and so forth. […]
The austrians ambassador on august 19, 1915, wrote of “large-scale massacres of Turks” by armenians that had taken place but added that it was not clear whether Turks or armenian had started such killings. […] The Turkish senator ahmed Riza, whom Dadrian praises as concerned about armenian suffering and was a man who “valiantly challenged the Ittihadist power-wielder”, in a memorandum dated Marc h 17, 1919, called for an international inquiry into the crimes committed against the Muslim population by armenian bands before the deportation of the armenian community. […] In January 1916 the Russians, led by advance guards of armenians volunteers, took Diarbekir. “The Moslems who did not succeed in escaping”, recalled the american missionary Grace Knapp, “were put to death”. […] When Turkish forces entered the city of Erzinjan in February 1918, they found a destroyed city and hundred of bodies in wells and shallow graves. […] The pro-armenian author Yves Ternon acknowledges that, following the Russian abandonment of the Caucasus front, armenians massacred the civilian population of Turkish villages and committed “unspeakable crimes”. »
Guenter Lewy, The armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey. a Disputed Genocide, University of Utah Press, 2005, pp. 116/118.

« N° 8. - Déposition sous serment de Mehmed Toufan effendi, fils du Major Essad effendi, juge suppléant au tribunal de Hakiari.

[…]
Dès la déclaration de la guerre générale, des bandes arméniennes formées d’avance entrèrent en activité et se firent les éclaireurs et les estafettes des troupes russes se trouvant à la frontière persane.
Ils appelèrent les Russes et les introduisirent le 9 novembre 1330 (1914) dans le villase de Dir, chef-lieu de la commune de Chikefti, du district de Hekguiari.
Pendant que les Russes occupaient Dir, ces bandes massacraient de leur côté tous les habitants mâles des villages kurdes qui se trouvaient sur leur chemin et au fil de l’épée des milliers d’enfants.
Plus de 400 jeunes filles kurdes et femmes âgées furent massacrées.
[…]
Partout où ils avaient passé, gisaient des corps de femmes éventrées avec des mamelles coupées, des enfants mis en morceaux, des jeunes filles violées, des hommes aux yeux crevés. Il est impossible d’énumérer toutes les cruautés commises par les Arméniens.

N° 10. - Déposition sous serment da Féhin bey, fils de Kahraman bey, originaire de Maoradio, membre du Conseil administratif de cette ville, se trouvant actuellement émigré au village de Klet (vilayet de Van).

C’était au commencenlent de 1331 (1915) que des bandes russo-arméniennes, formées la plupart d’Arméniens, avaient envahi le district de Bayazid ainsi que les 300 villages de la commune d’Ayara dépendant de Mouradié. Là, elles ont massacré tous les habitants musulmans qu’elles rencontraient sur leur route, sans épargner même ceux qui se rendaient à elles. Sachant que nous aurions le même sort que nos coreligionnaires, si nous nous rendions à ces bandes, nous décidâmes de fuir et partimes pour Erdjiche avec les habitants des villages environnants de Mouradié.
[…]
En route, nous avons constaté avec Salih bey que le village musulman de Iguidjé, composé de 30 maisons, et celui de Gumuche de 100 habitations avaient été entièrement dévastés par des bandes arméniennes. Des cadavres d’hommes et de femmes horriblement mutilés gisaient partout. On voyait dans les fours les squelettes carbonisés des enfants. »
Kara Schemsi, Turcs et Arméniens devant l’histoire, Genève, 1919 : http://louisville.edu/a-s/history/turks/turcs_et_armeniens.pdf

36
Lucrèce
June 2, 2008

Armenian Genocide is a fact and the world knows it.
Really ?

"We don’t need to prove the genocide historically, because it has already been accepted politically."Brian Ardouny, Executive Director of the Armenian Assembly of America, quoted in Washington Times, Tuesday, October 16, 2007 : http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2007/oct/16/armenian-crime-amnesia/

As said a writer of my country :
« Le plus grand dérèglement de l’esprit, c’est de croire les choses parce qu’on veut qu’elles soient, et non parce qu’on a vu qu’elles sont en effet. »

Jacques Bossuet, Traité de la connaissance de Dieu et de soi-même.

37
susnet eagle
June 2, 2008

Quite interesting accusation that Armenians are "racist". Don’t you think that the Turks are more racist by calling the Kurds the "Mountain Turks"!
SSE

38
Lucrèce
June 2, 2008

On the other hand, you merry people killed innocent Turkish people and historians in the 1970 and after that. Blowing up the home of a professor, diplomats murdered… all by Armenian terrorists.

« Outraged over the alleged genocide of some 1 1/2 million Armenians by the Turks during World War I and the resulting loss of their ancestral homeland, Armenian terrorists in the past decade have murdered 30 Turkish diplomats or members of their immediate families, including 4 in the United States. In addition, some 34 non-Turks have been murdered and over 300 wounded because they happened to be in the terrorists’ line of fire.When the terrorists have been apprehended, however, some Armenian apologists have implied that the terrorists have a right to murder and should not be prosecuted. After Hampig Sassounian was found guilty of assassinating Kemal Arikan, the Turkish consul general in Los Angeles in 1982, for example, some Armenians in Boston announced: "What occurred throughout Hampig’s trial was a mockery of justice, an attempt to stop the Armenian people from actively pursuing their cause… We are outraged by the…guilty verdict…""Armenians protest misuse of judicial system," proclaimed another article in the same Armenian-American newspaper. Referring to the trial of two other Armenian terrorists, who had murdered the Turkish ambassador to Yugoslavia in March 1983, the same publication declared: "To consider it a criminal act distorts the selfless struggles of the Armenian Youth, who are pursuing the just cause of their people."Embassies of Turkey in such disparate locations as Athens, Beirut, Belgrade, Berne, Brussels, Lisbon, Madrid, Ottawa, Paris, The Hague, and Vienna, as well as the Turkish delegation to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) and the Turkish Center at the United Nations also have come under attack. The Turkish Consulate in Geneva has been bombed on two separate occasions, the consulates in Los Angeles and Lyons once, and the Paris Consulate seized and occupied.The Turkish Airlines (THY) offices in Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Frankfurt, Geneva, London, Milan, Paris, and Rome have been bombed too, making good a terrorist threat against "any Turkish institution that lies within its striking limits." Foreign governments have been cautioned to "lift the protection thus far accorded" to Turks and Turkish property or else be "held responsible for the innocent victims within their own personnel [sic]," while travelers have been advised against using any form of Turkish transportation "because they might become the innocent victims of our rage."Furthermore, non-Turkish air-lines or their offices, such as Air France, Alitalia, British Airways, El Al, KLM, Lufthansa, Pan Am, Sabena, Swissair, and TWA, have been hit because of their commercial relations with Turkey.[…] In the United States the Turkish State Folk Dance Ensemble performances in California were canceled because of threats and a bombing, the Ataturk Centennial night organized by the American-Turkish Association of Houston was disrupted, and in January 1982 Armenian extremists broke up a Turkish history class at the University of California - Los Angeles being conducted by Stanford J. Shaw, a prominent professor of Ottoman studies. In addition, Professor Shaw’s home was bombed, his office at the university broken into and ransacked, and frequent verbal and written threats of violence hurled at him. Finally, he was forced to cancel his regularly scheduled classes and go into hiding. The apparent reason for this harassment was the pro-Turkish views he expressed in his History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey, 1977. Replying to an inquiry concerning this matter, William D. Schaefer, the executive vice chancellor at UCLA, wrote: "Because an international terrorist organization is involved, the University’s power to remedy the situation is limited." »

Michael M. Gunter, "Pursuing the Just Cause of their People". A Study of Contemporary Armenian Terrorism, Greenwood Press, 1986 : http://www.ataa.org/reference/cause-gunter.html

39
Lucrèce
June 2, 2008

Quite interesting accusation that Armenians are "racist". Don’t you think that the Turks are more racist by calling the Kurds the "Mountain Turks"!
The Kurds are not any longer called "Mountain Turks" since 1991. The Kurd Turgut Özal was president of Turkish Republic between 1989 and 1993. An other Kurd, Hikmet Çetin, was minister of Foreign Affaires between 1991 and 1994, president of the Great National Assembly of Turkey between 1997 and 1999. About 200 deputies of Turkey are Kurds.

40
Lucrèce
June 2, 2008

But can they utter the latter opinion in any country? Let me tell you where they cannot say it freely: France and Switzerland. Are you surprized? Well-known historian Professor Bernard Lewis was tried for saying that what happened to the Armenians could not be classified as genocide was found guilty of being a denialist, and was punished (for a token sum) a few years ago in France.

Il n’y a pas de loi en France interdisant de contester les accusations arméniennes. Le tribunal qui a condamné M. Lewis ne lui a pas nié le droit à cette contestation. Pour justifier la condamnation, il a tordu un article du code civil sur les troubles à l’ordre public.

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/bullied-historians.htm#lewis

En 1995, un grand historien français, M. Gilles Veinstein, a publié un article réfutant les accusations arméniennes. Il a été insulté, diffamé, mais pas condamné :

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/gilles.htm

J’espère que M. Van der Galien ne m’en voudra pas d’écrire en français.

41
tuna
June 2, 2008

History speaks for itself and does not need politics. So do the following documents: *) "… We sent armies, we burnt and destroyed places and we carried out massacres." (From H. Katchhaznouni, the first Prime Minister of Armenia, 1923) *) "The Dashnaks and Hunchaks have terrorised their own countrymen, stirred up Muslim people with their thefts and insanities, and paralysed all efforts made to carry out reforms; all the events taken place in Anatolia are the responsibility of the crimes committed by the Armenian revolutionary committees" (From The British Vice Consul Williams wrote from Van on 4 March 1896) *) "I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones, as I did." (From Lalayan, Revolutsionniy Vostok (Revolutionary East) No: 2-3, Moscow, 1936) *) "All Turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the Armenian nation" (From Hamparsum Boyaciyan, a former Ottoman parliamentarian who led Armenian guerilla forces, ravaging Turkish villages behind the lines, 1914. Cited from Mikael Varandean, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun." (Alternately known as "History of the A.R.Federation" ("H. H. Dashnaktsutyan Patmutiwn," Paris,1932 and Cairo,1950) *) "It is the armed bands led by Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian who during the past months have raided and destroyed many Muslim villages in the regions of Surmali, Etchmiadzin, Zangezour, and Zangibasar. There are official charges of massacres by the Armenians." (From Avetis Aharonian, From Sardarapat to Sevres and Lausanne; Armenian Review, Vol. 16, No. 3-63, Autumn, Sep. 1963, p. 54, cont’ed) *)"While the Dashnaks [x-Russian Armenian Government] were in power they did everything in the world to keep the pot boiling by attacking Kurds, Turks and Tartars; by committing outrages against the Moslems; by massacring the Moslems; and robbing and destroying their homes." (From U.S. Library of Congress - Bristol Papers - General Correspondence Container #34. *)"I have been on the scenes of massacres where the dead lay on the ground, in numbers, like the fallen leaves in a forest. Muslims had been as helpless and as defenseless as sheep…" (From Leonard R Hartill, Men Are Like That The Bobbs-Merrill Company, Indianapolis(1926)Memoirs of Ohanus Appressian, pge 218 *) " In the courtyard of the mosque the corpses lay heaped to a depth of two lance-lengths. There were bodies of men, women, children, old people, people of every age. …" On the 27th February the Armenians crucified a Turkish woman-still alive -on a wall after tearing out her heart; she was hung head downwards." ""the Armenians slew more than 800 Turks in Erzindjan, and so avenged one of their miserable accomplices who had been killed by a Turk in justified self-defense. Furthermore, the Armenians massacred the unhappy Mohammedan population of Ilidja, in the neighborhood of Erzerum, without sparing the women and children." "…In the night of the 26th-27th the Armenians eluded the vigilance of the Russian officers and perpetrated another massacre, but at once took to their heels at the first approach of the Turks. This massacre was no impromptu affair-it had been planned beforehand; all captured Turks were collected and put to death one by one. The Armenians reported with pride that the night’s toll reached a total of 3,000" (From Second Russian Garrison Artillery…Lieutenant-Colonel Griaznoff) *) "Europe wanted blood from us, we gave; they wanted soldiers, we gave warriors and volunteers. So that they wanted us to bathe with freedom blood…… dangerous future is forward…….. but we have hopes. Victorious Armenians." (From Istanbul 01.01.1914 Aspares num 350 Aktoni Malumyan. Armenian Tashnak Terrorist. *) "It is time that Americans ceased to be deceived by Armenian propaganda in behalf of policies which are nauseating…" (From John Dewey, Columbia University professor, (From "The Turkish Tragedy," The New Republic, Nov. 1 1928). *) The village of Deurtyol - about 5000 Armenians- Armenians of Deurtyol are now well armed with modern rifles, every male adult having one in his possession. (Deurtyol is a town very close to Alexandretta) (From: 1913, October 21 FO, 371/1773. No. 52128 In Sir P. Mallet’s Despatch No 925 of Kov. 12 Consul Fontana to His Majesty’s Charge de Affairs Aleppo) *) …..Armenians in Russia and Turkey were extremely anxious that war would break out between Russia and Turkey, as in that event the Armenians both in Russia and Turkey would endeavor to avenge themselves on the Turks. He also stated that 60,000 Armenians had already volunteered to fight the Turks in the event of war breaking out. (From: 1914, Nov 6 FO, 371/2146, No. 68443 7 November 1914 (Sent November 6th,1914) Signed by Francis Blyth Kinby) *) ….Boghos Nubar Pasha has represented to me that the Armenian population of Cilicia would be ready to enroll themselves as volunteers in support of a possible disembarkation at Alexandretta, Mersina, or Adana on the part of the allied forces. (1914, Nov 12 FO, 371/2146, No. 70404 Cairo, November 12, 1914. No. 257 (Telegraphic) Mr. Chcetham to Sir Edward Grey.(Received November 12) *) In reply to your letter, the arming of these Armenians was part of a scheme for the occupation of Alexandretta, which is not in contemplation at the present moment. (From: 1915, March 1 FO, 371/2484, No. 25073 1st March, 1915 Signed by D.D. Culite/ The Under Secretary of State For Foreign Affairs Foreign Office S. W., London) *) Sir, In conformity with your Excellency’s telegraphic instructions. …. The population of Ourfa before the 28th December, 1895, was close to 65,000, of whom about 20,000 were Armenians, 3000-4000 (other Christians and Jews), and the remaining -40,000 are Turkish, Kurdish and Arab Muslumans… .(From: ………….1896, March 16 Ourfa FO, 424/187, No.66, p.66-82 Inclosure 2 in No. 53 Vice -consul Fitzmaurice to Sir P. Currie) *) Sir, I have the honour to submit some general observations on Armenians and other races of this consular district….Erzeroum town….First, as to Erzeroum town. This is an important, fairly prosperous, distributing trade center with a population of perhaps 50,000, perhaps a third of whom are Armenians……….. The Turkish villagers, who form the majority of the population of the Erzurum Vilayet…….the population of the Vilayet may be very roughly estimated at 600,000, of whom perhaps 150,000 to 200,000 are Armenians, 100-150,000 Kurds, and the rest Turks.. …………….The Armenian inhabitants of what is called the great Armenian tableland in Turkey (the vilayets of Van, Bitlis, and Erzeroum, and parts of the vilayets of Kharput and Diarbekir) are perhaps half a million, and are in the region as a whole and in almost every subdistrict in the minority. The Armenians of the adjacent Russian territory of Trans-Caucasia are about 2,000,000, and in that territory are again in the minority.

…………(From: 1912, November FO, 424/233, No 126, p.51-53 Inclosure in No.354 Consul Monahan to Sir G. Lowther (No.84) Erzeroum, telegraph) Turks were massacred everywhere in the 19th century…. 1913, October 31 FO,195/2450, p83-87 Inclosure in Mr. Consul Monahan’s No 69 A summary translation from an Armenian newspaper Haratch: …The Turkish Government after being defeated by the four Balkan Powers, and lost seven million of population…" The Turks who had been slaughtered like animals were buried in large holes in the Eastern Anatolia (Lieutenant Colonel Twerdo-Khlebof. I wittnessed and I Lived Through Erzurum, 1917-1918.

http://www.tsk.mil.tr/ermeni_sorunu/arsiv_belgeleriyle_ermeni_faaliyetleri/pdf/yarbay_tverdohlebov.pdf The British Archive Documents, can be requested from: CELIA HARRIS, Enquiry/Correspondence section Record Copying Department, The National Archives, (www.nationalarchives.gov.uk)

42
aylin ata
June 2, 2008

Let us reevaluate Armenia’s persistence on the word ‘genocide’ from a different perspective:Armenia’s attitude towards Turkey’s land integrity: Article 11 of the Armenian Declaration of Independence of August 23, 1990; refers to Eastern Anatolia of Turkey as Western Armenia and as such beholds that this area is part of Armenia. Since the Armenian constitution recognizes as a basis “the fundamental principles of the Armenian statehood and national aspirations engraved in the Declaration of Independence of Armenia”, it likewise accepts the characterization of Eastern Anatolia as Western Armenia and this, albeit indirectly, translates into the advancement of territorial claims. The Armenian politicians and school books call Eastern Anatolia of Turkey, ‘invaded mother land of Armenia’ and in Armenia the school children are being grown up being conditioned to be patriots to rescue their invaded land. Even the marches they sing are about this condition. The Armenians who write in such blogs that the Eastern Anatolia cities do not belong to Turkey, as if the present Eastern boundaries of Turkey was not determined by treaties of Gumru (1920), Moscow (1921) and the whole boundaries by Lausanne (1923) Treaties; after the Turkish Freedom War.

Additionally Armenia refused Turkey’s recurrent offers to commit an agreement declaring that each country recognizes the other country’s land integrity, in 1992 and later. Why do the Armenians force Turkey to accept a genocide? The answer is hidden in a speech of the chief of Dashnak Party Hrant Markaryan who told that their efforts for the recognition of Armenian (so-called) genocide was not an isolated purpose but it was a part of the struggle for rescue of the West Armenia (Armenian Forum Vol2 No 4; Armenian Weekly On-line, 18 June, 4 July 2003).

The Armenian then prime minister Andranik Markaryan told that the internationally recognition of (so called) Armenian genocide and demanding land from Ankara as ‘compensation’ was possible only after Armenia had strengthened and the Armenians should not have told that they demanded land from Ankara loudly and everywhere (Arminfo 26 May 2004). On one occasion President Kocharian stated that since today’s Armenia does not have the clout to advance such demands, doing so should be left to future generations at a time when conditions would hopefully be better suited to this end’. A poll taken in Armenia revealed that almost all youngsters in the Republic of Armenia wished to follow up with land claims from Turkey and 90% of them said Turkey must unequivocally accept genocide allegations.

(Milliyet - April 11, 2006)The world should not forget that Germany’s claim on Zudetland and Gdansk just because they were its historical lands caused burst of World War II! History is full of wars which broke up because of claims of states on their historical lands. If an item like the aforementioned Armenian item were present in the lawbook of Mexico claiming that Texas, Arizonna, New Mexico and California which were historical lands of Mexico, belonged to Mexico but invaded, would the American tolerate it? Therefore the world should not overlook Armenia’s aggressivity, which is hidden behind their role of victim and should think about the price of their support to the Armenians very well. And the most important question which should be asked is how the assosiations and governments could fall within the scope of Armenian propagandists and become a major advocate of Armenian agressivity, dramatically while pursuing humanist missions!



43
Lucrèce
June 2, 2008

http://www.haberdar.fr/lyon-turk-dernekleri/lyon-turk-dernekleri/faire-taire-les-menteurs.html

Il importe de bien écouter ce qu’a dit Mourad Papazian, président du Dachnack pour l’Europe occidentale, en présence d’officiels français lors de l’inauguration à Marseille d’un monument dont on nous dit qu’il a été payé uniquement par des fonds publics: « Chers compatriotes, contre la Turquie, nous allons continuer à nous organiser. Nous organiser pour mieux nous mobiliser. Nous mobiliser pour mieux atteindre nos objectifs. Mieux atteindre nos objectifs pour gagner. Non seulement pour la reconnaissance du génocide mais aussi pour l’édification d’une Arménie libre, indépendante et réunifiée pour que tous ensemble, nous puissions reprendre possession de Van, Mouch, Kars, Sassoun, Bitlis et Erzeroum. »

44
Lucrèce
June 2, 2008

France, Armenians’ ally in crime
France was never an ally of armenian terrorists in the years of bombings and assassinations. On the contrary, France was a target of hate and attacks of ASALA.

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/terrorism-breakdown.htm

February 5, 1981
FRANCE (Paris): Bombs placed at the Paris offices of Trans World Airlines and Air France exploded, injuring one and causing extensive damage. A group identifying itself as the ‘October 3 Armenian Nationalism Movement’ claimed credit for the attacks.

August 22, 1981
FRANCE (Paris): An early morning bomb explosion occurred in front of the Paris offices of Olympic Airlines. An anonymous caller claimed the attack for the ‘October 3 Armenian Organization’;

October 25, 1981
FRANCE (Paris): Fouquet’s, the fashionable French restaurant on the Champs-Elysees, was the target of a bomb attack which injured three employees. A group calling itself ‘September-France’ claimed the attack;

October 26, 1981
FRANCE (Paris): A booby-trapped automobile exploded in front of ‘Le Drugstore,’ a fashionable shop on the Champs-Elysees. The ‘September-France’ group claimed responsibility for the attack;

October 27, 1981
FRANCE (Paris): A bomb explosion in the parking lot of Paris’ Roissy Airport destroyed a parked car. The ‘September-France’ group claimed the attack;

October 27, 1981
FRANCE (Paris): A second bomb exploded in a trash can near a busy escalator in the Roissy Airport. No one was injured in the explosion. The ‘September-France’ group claimed responsibility;

October 28, 1981
FRANCE (Paris): A crowded Paris movie theater was the site of a bomb explosion which injured three people. The ‘September-France’ group claimed responsibility;

November 5, 1981
FRANCE (Paris): A bomb exploded in the Parisian Gare de Lyon train station, injuring one person and causing considerable damage to luggage lockers. Subsequently, the attack was claimed by an Armenian terrorist organization, styling itself as the ‘Orly Organization’;

November 12, 1981 LEBANON (Beirut): Simultaneous bomb explosions occurred in front of three French offices in Beirut: A) the French Cultural Center; B) the Air France offices; and C) the home of the French Consul. No one was injured in the attacks which caused extensive physical damage. The ‘Orly Organization’ (named for an Armenian arrested at the French airport on charges of using false documents), claimed the attacks, and demanded the immediate release of Monte Melkonian, the Armenian-American detained in France;

November 14, 1981
FRANCE (Paris): A bomb explosion damaged an automobile parked near the Eiffel Tower in Paris. A caller claimed the attack for the ‘Orly Organization’ and announced that it was ‘The First Warning’;

November 14, 1981
FRANCE (Paris): A group of tourists disembarking from a siteseeing boat on the River Seine were subjected to a grenade attack. No one was injured. The ‘Orly Organization’ claimed the attack;

November 15, 1981
FRANCE (Paris): The ‘Orly Organization’ issued a threat to blow up an Air France airplane in flight;

November 15, 1981
LEBANON (Beirut): Simultaneous bomb attacks were carried out against three French targets in Beirut; A) the Union des Assurances de Paris; B) the Air France offices; and C) the Banque Libano-Fnançaise. No one was injured in the attacks which caused extensive physical property damage. The ‘Orly Organization’ claimed responsibility for the attacks;

November 15, 1981
FRANCE (Paris): The ‘McDonald’s Restaurant’ in Paris was the site of a bomb explosion, claimed by the ‘September-France’ and ‘Only Organization’;

November 16, 1981
FRANCE (Paris): A bomb planted in the luggage lockers at Paris’ Gare de l’Est railroad terminal exploded, injuring two poeple and causing property damage. The ‘Orly Organization’ claimed responsibility for the attack;

November 18, 1981
FRANCE (Paris): The ‘Orly Organization’ announced it had planted a bomb at Paris’ Cane du Nord. No explosive device was located;

January 17, 1982
FRANCE (Paris): A bomb exploded at a branch of the Union of Banks of Paris, and a second explosive device was disarmed at a branch of the Credit Lyonnais. The ‘Orly Organization’ claimed credit for the two explosive devices;

January 19, 1982
FRANCE (Paris): A bomb exploded in the Air France office in the Palais des Congrès in Paris. The ‘Orly Organization’ claimed the attack;

July 21, 1982
FRANCE (Paris): A bomb explosion near a crowded Parisian cafe in the Place Saint-Sevnin, injured sixteen people. Credit for the explosion was claimed by the ‘Orly Organization,’ who stated that it was in retaliation for the failure of French authorities to keep their promise to grant political asylum to the four terrorists who perpetrated the takeover of the Turkish Consulate on September 24, 1981;

July 26, 1982
FRANCE (Paris): Two women were injured when a bomb exploded in Paris’ ‘Pub Saint Germain.’ The ‘Orly Organization’ claimed the attack;

August 2, 1982
FRANCE (Paris): Pierre Gulumian, a suspected Armenian terrorist, was killed (apparently when a bomb he was making exploded) in his Paris apartment;

August 8, 1982
FRANCE (Paris): French bomb squad officials successfully defused a bomb found near a telephone center in Paris ‘Seventeenth District.’ The ‘Orly Organization’ took credit for the attack;

February 28, 1983*
FRANCE (Paris): A bomb exploded at the Turkish owned ‘Manmara Travel Agency’ in Paris. Killed in the explosion was Renée Monin, a French secretary. Four other Frenchmen were wounded in the explosion. The bomb also caused heavy damage to the building. A few minutes after the attack, ASALA claimed responsibility;

July 18, 1983
FRANCE (Lyon): A bomb threat was made by ASALA against the Lyon Railroad Station;

July 20, 1983
FRANCE (Lyon): Armenian terrorists threatened to blow up Lyon’s Perrache Railroad Station, causing the facility’s evacuation. ASALA claimed credit for the threat;

July 22, 1983
IRAN (Tehran): A French Embassy building and the Air France office in Tehran were bombed. ASALA claimed the attack in the name of the ‘Orly Organization’;

July 28, 1983
FRANCE (Lyon): Once again a threat that a bomb was planted in Lyon’s Perrache Railroad Station forced the evacuation of the facility. The caller claimed the bomb was planted by ASALA. A thorough search of the facility failed to uncover any explosive device;

July 29, 1983
IRAN (Tehran): A threat to blow up the French Embassy in Tehran with a rocket attack, caused Iranian officials to increase security at the facility. The threat emanated from the ‘Orly Organization’ who demanded the release of twenty-one Armenians imprisoned in France;

July 31, 1983
FRANCE (Lyon & Rennes): Bomb threats made by Armenian terrorists forced French authorities to order the emergency landing of two domestic French flights carrying 424 passengers. The planes landed at Lyon and Rennes respectively. A search of the airliners failed to uncover any explosives;

August 10, 1983
IRAN (Tehran): A bomb exploded in an automobile at the French Embassy in Tehran. ASALA claimed credit for the attack;

August 17, 1983
IRAN (Tehran): A car being driven by a local representative of Air France in Tehran was attacked by automatic weapons. ASALA claimed credit for the attack;

August 25, 1983*
FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY: French Consulate offices were destroyed by a bomb blast which killed two and injured twenty-three others. ASALA claimed responsibility for the attack;

September 9, 1983
IRAN (Tehran): Two French Embassy cans in Tehran were firebombed. One of the bombs injured two embassy staff members. ASALA claimed credit for the attacks;

October 6, 1983
IRAN (Tehran): A French Embassy vehicle was bombed in Tehran. Two passengers were injured in the explosion. The ‘Orly Organization’ claimed credit for the attack;

October 29, 1983
LEBANON (Beirut): A can drove up to the front of the French Embassy in Beirut. One man got out and threw a hand grenade onto the staircase leading into the building. He was apprehended by security guards, but his accomplices escaped. ASALA claimed responsibility for the attack;

August 13, 1984
FRANCE (Lyon): A bomb exploded in the Lyon Railroad Station, causing minor damage due to a malfunction. ASALA claimed credit for the attack;

October 9, 1986
LEBANON (Beirut): The ‘Armenian Secret Army for the the Liberation of Armenia’ (ASALA) released a handwritten statement to western news agencies in Beirut, threatening more violence against France, unless Varoujan Garabedian and two other Middle Eastern terrorists were released from prison. The statement claimed that ASALA would strike at French planes, airports, ships, trains and diplomats in retaliation for police raids on homes of Armenians living in France. It further promised France would be hit with “additional blows with vast damage and grave consequences’ if Garabedian were not freed. The wording of the ‘ASALA’ statement leaves no doubt but that this Armenian terrorist organization was one of the perpetrators of the series of bombings which rocked Paris in September, and, which resulted in the deaths of 10 people and the wounding of more than 160 others;

Oct. 5, 1987
LEBANON. Two French Embassy guards were killed and another critically wounded when gunmen opened fire on them as they were shopping in East Beirut. A person claiming to be a spokesman for ASALA claimed responsibility, while others close to the group denied having carried out the attack. Another group called the Tanyus Shahin Armed Unit also claimed responsibility, demanding that the French release George Ibrahim Abdallah from prison and stop interfering with Lebanese affairs.

Feb. 2, 1988
LEBANON. A Frenchman, identified as an intelligence agent, was killed by two gunmen firing from point-blank range in East Beirut. Jacques Merrin was killed just minutes after conferring with the director of Lebanese Internal Security. Papers Merrin was carrying at the time of his death were stolen by his assailants. A statement claiming the assassination by ASALA was followed by another statement denying involvement.

Je continue en français.

La Fédération révolutionnaire arménienne (FRA) et l’ASALA ont détesté la France du président Giscard d’Estaing (1974-1981). Elles ont accueilli favorablement l’élection de François Mitterrand, mais elles ont vite été déçues : pas de reconnaissance du prétendu génocide par l’Assemblée nationale, pas d’indulgence particulière pour les terroristes, du moins de la part du pouvoir exécutif (dans certains tribunaux, ce fut autre chose). L’ASALA s’en est pris violemment à la France, de plus en plus, car elle était financée et soutenue par la Syrie, puis par l’Iran, qui avaient de gros contentieux avec Paris (affaire libanaise, affaire Eurodif…). Plus maline, la FRA a préféré recourir aux campagnes d’opinion et à l’infiltration de tout de ce qui compte dans le pays : médias, associations, partis politiques de gouvernement, etc.

Malgré ses efforts laborieux, la FRA n’est vraiment influente que dans certaines agglomérations où le vote arménien est décisif : Paris, Lyon, Marseille.
Le maire socialiste de Strasbourg a été élu en mars 2008 sur une liste où figuraient deux Franco-Turcs :

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=96209

The Socialist Party’s candidate in Strasbourg Roland Ries similarly decried the treatment Oran was put through. “It is unacceptable to force candidates on subjects irrelevant to local elections,” he said. Two Turks in Ries’ candidacy list, Mine Günbay and Şaban Kiper said they were not confronted with similar obligations.

M. Ries subit depuis la haine hystérique des dachnaks français.

Un autre maire socialiste, Philippe Kizirian (oui, Kizirian), est détesté par la FRA, pour avoir battu aux élections un ardent propadandiste proarménien. M. Kizirian a assisté à la fête des enfants, le 23 avril, avec les Turcs et les Franco-Turcs de sa ville.

Merci d’arrêter le french-bashing, ce n’est pas ainsi que vous aiderez les Franco-Turcs et les amis français des Turcs à éliminer l’influence délétère des nationalistes arméniens dans leur pays.

45
nevber
June 3, 2008

Lucrece, Thank you! I was only in my teenage years when ASALA committed, one of many, horrific atrocities by brutally murdering one of my schoolmate’s farther in Vienna. (1984) Not only did my family personally suffer from ASALA’s disgusting attacks but also friends around me had suffered in the most horrific way. It is sad that most Armenians and the International community do NOT know this part of history. Or choose to knowingly ignore it!!!!!

46
Lucrèce
June 3, 2008

Isik Wonder (Assistant Labor and Social Affairs Counselor at the Turkish Embassy in Vienna) and Enver Ergun (employed of the United Nations in Vienna), both killed in 1984, was not victims of the ASALA, but of the Armenian Revolutionary Army (ARA), i. e. the terrorist branch of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation. ARA who was called JCAG between 1975 and 1983.

47
Lucrèce
June 3, 2008

And all my condolence for this murdering and other crimes of Armenian terrorists.

48
Eugenie
June 3, 2008

What’s so ridiculous about this whole thing is in the past few years the whole 1915 controversy and differences between Armenians and Turks have been rapidly coming together. They are no longer standing across streets screaming at each other but working together more, especially on the scholarly level. This work has brought the truth of what happened more and more to the fore and I think the scholarly consensus has widely consildated around the genocide thesis over the past few years at a faster rate than before amongst many more people (for another example of toe our line or shut up see the recent Quataert controversy in which an Ottoman scholar switched from saying it wasn’t to it WAS and genocide and receiving backlash from the Turkish government as a result. If even the Ottomanists- the ones who are most specialized regarding this point of history but also the ones most influenced by the Turkish government, grants, and influence are switching over have not the "historians decided"?)

That Slovakia article you jumped on was only reported in that one panarmenia article and I think needs further confirmation before you jump to these conclusions that the whole population of Slovakian will be going to jail, it hasn’t even passed nor is it scheduled for practically a year. This could and most likely will come to nothing.
And I love how enthusiastically hope this same thing you decry happens in your own country. A regular Martin Luther King Jr you are. I wonder if any supporters of segregation wishes it came back so they could become the next Rosa Parks. If that’s not a sign you’re in this for the wrong and terrible reasons I don’t know what is.

This is what’s so wrong about this kind of illegalization, you turn people into martyrs (or wannabe martyrs) for a misguided cause. I feel the same way about Holocaust denial throughout Europe, what more do those who dispute the Holocaust need to feel justified than someone putting them in jail for that opinion?

49
Lucrèce
June 3, 2008

the scholarly consensus has widely consildated around the genocide thesis
A consensus? Which consensus? Where is a consensus? Many respectable (and non-Turkish) historians rejected Armenian claims. For example:
Jean-Pierre Azéma, ancien professeur à l’Institut d’études politiques de Paris ;
Roderic H. Davison (RIP), former professor at George Washington University;
Paul Dumont, professeur à l’université de Strasbourg-II, directeur de l’Institut français d’études anatoliennes ;
Gwynne Dyer, doctor in Ottoman History;
Edward J. Erickson, researcher at Birmingham University;
J. C. Hurewitz (RIP), former professor at Columbia University;
Bernard Lewis, professor emeritus at Princeton University;
Guenter Lewy, professor emeritus at Massuchetts University (Amherst);
Heath Lowry, professor at Princeton University;
Andrew Mango;
Justin McCarthy, professor at Louisville University;
Robert Mantran (paix à ses cendres), ancien professeur à l’université de Provence;
Pierre Nora, de l’Académie française, ancien directeur d’études à l’EHESS ;
René Rémond (paix à ses cendres), de l’Académie française, ancien président de la Fondation nationale des sciences politiques ;
Jeremy Salt, professor at Melbourne University;
Stanford Jay Shaw, former professor at UCLA and Bilkent University;
Norman Stone, former professor at Oxford University, actually professor at Bilkent;
Gilles Veinstein, professeur au Collège de France ;
Robert Zeidner, doctor in Ottoman History;
Erik Zürcher, professor at Leyde University.

The Website of the French historians association Liberté pour l’histoire, against the lobbies of memory, including Armenian lobbies:

http://www.lph-asso.fr/

50
Eugenie
June 3, 2008

This is exactly the craziness I was talking about… I was going to write but didn’t in my last post that when it comes to "let the historians decide", does that mean that until ever last one conforms to calling it the g-word the issue is still up in the air? Will you just rely on Justin McCarthy forever as your beacon of hope in a world of people who call it genocide?

There is a misconception that Ottomanists are the one and only final authority on whether it was genocide or not. While of course that sounds like common sense at first glance, I will defer to quotes by Ottomanist Dr. Quataert said about his colleagues in the field as he has internal knowledge. As I mentioned in the previous point, while they are the ones who study Ottoman history they are also the ones with the strongest connections to the Turkish government, its grants, organizations, and influence. Some of the names you mention are just part of this on-line list of "pro-Turkish scholars" which Turkish propaganda sources quote time after time as proof they are right. Some like Heath Lowry have already been discredited with their own scandals as he was proven to be an agent of the Turkish government. Others have done little to no work on 1915 but even uttering a small line on the issue is enough to get them on this list. I know some lists I’ve seen (not sure about yours) have named people as opposing the g-word by mistake. Anyway, as Dr. Quataert said (someone who was amongst the signators of a 1985 letter opposing the use of the g-word and where you get many of the names on your list from) about these scholars and the state of Ottoman scholarship:

"After the long lapse of serious Ottomanist scholarship on the Armenian question, it now appears that the Ottomanist wall of si- lence is crumbling. In 1998, for example, the Armenian Forum published articles by several Ottomanists, as well as Armenian specialists, in which the scholars actually talked to, instead of past, one another; they sought to engage in constructive dialogues on the massacres and not simply to speak to their own constituencies."

"I use the term [genocide] in the context of this review. Although it may provoke anger among some of my Ottomanist colleagues, to do otherwise in this essay runs the risk of suggesting denial of the massive and systematic atrocities that the Ottoman state and some of its military and general populace committed against the Armenians."

"Indeed, accumulating evidence is indicating that the killings were centrally planned by Ottoman government officials and systematically carried out by their underlings."

"The patterns of killings were chillingly similar in the various areas, powerfully suggesting the presence of a coordinated program." He further states: "On the evidence presented, it seems plausible that high-ranking officials of the Ottoman state, utilizing the Special Organization, directed a concerted, centrally orchestrated program that murdered massive numbers of Ottoman Armenians."

And who would know better, Ottoman historian Donald Quataert or random blogger Michael v. d. G. whose only research appears to have come from Turkish propaganda? I wouldn’t trust either Turkish or Armenian propaganda, but Michael seems convinced that one of those propagandas is totally correct and therefore is justified for usage. In fact up until these recent comments Michael might have found Quataert to be one of those extremely valid sources as an Ottoman historian who said it wasn’t genocide thus validating his opinion. Quataert has given us an interesting look into the world of Ottoman scholarship and the problems with how they current approach the issue at hand.

51
nevber
June 3, 2008

Armenian Diaspora and supporters of the G-Word as you have state it, is always quoting the “world is on our side” so it must be Genocide. But what makes me smile in this logic is those countries that you so much like to hide behind do not seem to be so concerned about other “Genocides” but only the Armenian one. Now did you ever ask the question to yourself why are the European powers and the United States so concerned about what happened almost 100 years ago (the truth is still debated) and not even be concerned about the Genocides committed against the Native Americans by the US government, or the Spanish and Portuguese against the Indigence people of the South Americas or against the Aborigines people slaughtered in the hands of the Australians, or the genocide committed by the French against the Algerians or one of the worst (in my mind) how the Congolese suffered for almost 200 years by the Belgium’s in the most atrocious manner… the list is very very long! The countries that I have just reminded you have committed these heinous crimes but no one seems to notice or talk about it. No one discusses it in their parliament, or even thinks they were actual acts of genocide. The question then must the asked “What is so special about the pain and suffering of the Armenian people?” “Why are they any different from the Indigence people around the world? Aborigines? Algerians? Vietnamese? Iraqis? Africans? Then it all becomes clear to me as to why this is such an issue for the West… The Armenian Genocide is a symbol of a Christian suffering for them and they will not have it. But sod the Arabs, the Blacks, the Indigenous, and the blood of the none-white, none-Christians….. Isn’t this yet another form of Racism and feeling of superiority in the part of the West? The hypocrisy is disgusting and shame on the West for being so racist in the 21st century!!!!! It is time to shine the light on them!!!!

52
Lucrèce
June 3, 2008

J’espère, Eugénie, que vous savez lire le français, parce que soir, je suis trop fatigué pour écrire en anglais.

Will you just rely on Justin McCarthy forever as your beacon of hope in a world of people who call it genocide?

Pour ce qui est de la science, c’est la qualification, la rigueur du raisonnement, l’honnêteté du travail, la diversité des sources, qui compte. M. McCarthy, même s’il a quelques défauts que je ne chercherai sûrement pas à défendre, un vrai, un bon historien. Il est puérile de balayer l’argumentation d’un revers d’un main, en donnant, pour tout argument, les avis de non spécialistes, formulés sans le moindre argument.

There is a misconception that Ottomanists are the one and only final authority on whether it was genocide or not.
Si vous étiez bien informée, vous sauriez que les professeurs Azéma, Lewy, Nora et Rémond ne sont pas des ottomanistes, et que la grande majorité des membres de Liberté pour l’histoire ne le sont pas non plus.

After the long lapse of serious Ottomanist scholarship on the Armenian question, it now appears that the Ottomanist wall of si- lence is crumbling.

M. Quataert écrit là une sottise. S’il est tout à fait exact, et je ne suis pas le dernier à le regretter, que les ottomanistes n’ont pas assez produit que l’affaire arménienne, depuis 1965, aucune espèce de censure ou d’autocensure n’a existé. Il y a des passages tout à fait explicites et convaincants dans l’History of Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey de Stanford Jay Shaw et Ezel Kural Shaw, traduisant une vraie recherche dans les archives. Le couple Shaw a eu l’honnêteté de corriger, dès 1978, les passages qui, de toute évidence, étaient erronés. Est-ce que MM. Dadrian, Hovannisian, Balakian, Ternon… ont fait de même, une seule fois dans leur triste carrière ? Je ne crois pas.

Par ailleurs, et contrairement à toutes les sornettes qui sont racontées ici ou là, un véritable débat a eu lieu entre historiens turcs et arméniens, de 1965 à 1975-1978. C’est le ralliement massif à l’ASALA, du côté arménien, qui a rompu le dialogue. En 1967, dans Armenia on the Road of Independence, M. Hovannisian défendait l’idée d’un génocide arménien d’une façon modérée, sans sectarisme. Après 1977, il a approuvé les violences contre ses collègues S. J. Shaw et E. K. Shaw (dont l’attentat à l’explosif contre leur domicile), et encouragé ses étudiants arméniens à perturber leurs cours. Ce fut un franc succès : pendant des années, Stanford Jay Shaw n’a pas pu faire cours ; il a finalement choisi de terminer sa carrière en Turquie.

As I mentioned in the previous point, while they are the ones who study Ottoman history they are also the ones with the strongest connections to the Turkish government, its grants, organizations, and influence.

Et les liens étroits entre les auteurs arméniens d’une part, les organisations nationalistes, voire terroristes, arméniennes, d’autre part, cela vous gêne pas ? Quand M. Dadrian écrit que la FRA et le Hintchak ne sont liés par la morale traditionnelle, se référant à leurs attentats, vous trouvez cela tout à fait naturel ? Quand M. Balakian hurle sa haine des Turcs, vous faites la sourde oreille ?
Encore une fois, une argumentation historique se juge par sa propre valeur, et non par les liens, réels ou supposés, d’un historien avec tel ou tel État, telle ou telle idéologie.

Some of the names you mention are just part of this on-line list of "pro-Turkish scholars" which Turkish propaganda sources quote time after time as proof they are right.

Je n’ai pas besoin de sites de propagande turque pour établir cette liste, ou pour quoi que ce soit, d’ailleurs. Je n’aime pas la propagande turque, et je vais, à la première occasion, rappeler que le massacre de Khodjaly n’est pas un génocide, que les Turcs ne sont pas crédibles en rejetant le mot génocide dans le cas arménien, et en le revendiquant pour les Azéris.
Vos insinuations, gardez-les pour vous.

Some like Heath Lowry have already been discredited with their own scandals as he was proven to be an agent of the Turkish government.
M. Lowry a été victime d’une campagne de diffamation, qui n’a déshonoré que ses responsables. Et encore, le gang Balakian-Hovannisian peut-il être déshonoré ? Il faudrait pour cela qu’il ait de l’honneur.

Others have done little to no work on 1915 but even uttering a small line on the issue is enough to get them on this list.
Des noms, des noms !

"Indeed, accumulating evidence is indicating that the killings were centrally planned by Ottoman government officials and systematically carried out by their underlings."
Mais quelles preuves ? Il n’y a aucune preuve.

On the evidence presented, it seems plausible that high-ranking officials of the Ottoman state, utilizing the Special Organization, directed a concerted, centrally orchestrated program that murdered massive numbers of Ottoman Armenians.
M. Quataert se ridiculise définitivement avec cette affirmation. L’argument de l’Organisation spéciale, avancé par M. Dadrian et sa bande depuis 1993, a été complètement détruit par M. Lewy et M. Erickson :

http://www.meforum.org/article_print.php?id=748&v=0472252121

http://www.meforum.org/article_print.php?id=991&v=0072252121

53
Richard
June 3, 2008

It is interesting that at #49 Lucrece in her list mentions Erich J. Zurcher, a prominent Dutch historian who in his book "Turkey: A Modern History", concludes that there was a centrally-controlled plan by the CUP to exterminate the Armenians. Zurcher doesn’t hesitate to use the word "genocide" and he recently hosted Taner Akcam at a conference in Holland.

As far as the Liberte Pour l’Histoire Groupe in France, they do not contest the Armenian Genocide but rather are against any legislation restricting discussion on historical subjects - including the Loi Gayssot (the law on Holocaust denial). I agree with them on this.

54
Lucrèce
June 3, 2008

Erich J. Zurcher, a prominent Dutch historian
Mr. Zürcher is a Swiss citizen since 1997.

who in his book "Turkey: A Modern History", concludes that there was a centrally-controlled plan by the CUP to exterminate the Armenians.
Mr. Zürcher don’t say about the CUP, but a part of the CUP.

Zurcher doesn’t hesitate to use the word "genocide" and he recently hosted Taner Akcam at a conference in Holland.
Are you sure?
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/yazarDetay.do?haberno=32983
Professor Eric Zurcher, a famous Dutch professor and an expert on Turkey, considers getting stuck on the word “genocide” is unfortunate.

Mr. Zürcher argued that the Andonian materials "have been shown to be forgeries" (Turkey: A Modern History, London: I.B. Tauris, 1997, p. 121).

55
Lucrèce
June 3, 2008

Mr. Zürcher wrote :

http://tulp.leidenuniv.nl/content_docs/wap/ejz24.pdf

Erickson’s treatment of the military developments of 1915-1916 is convincing.

And what Mr. Erickson wrote, in his book, about the relocation of Armenians, in 1915-1916? Not at all the same allegations than Mr. Akçam.

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/Erickson-ArmenianRebellion.htm

56
Eugenie
June 3, 2008

"Indeed, accumulating evidence is indicating that the killings were centrally planned by Ottoman government officials and systematically carried out by their underlings."
–Mais quelles preuves ? Il n’y a aucune preuve.

All I have to say is that line came from an Ottoman historian, not some random blog commentor. In the past year the only line I hear from the Turkish side is "no proof! no proof!" No clarification from them on whether this is actually the proof or how saying no proof somehow is enough to automatically justify anything they say. That line might work in response to fellow civilians but it does NOT work up against the words of an Ottoman historian. He is a professional and if he says there’s proof he obviously has that proof to back it up- or else he’d risk his credibility. He is one of the foremost Ottomanists and his book is used in numerous college courses. I only posted excerpts, read the rest of his work for the proof instead of screaming "no proof!" at what was a one sentence excerpt of his work. Or are you just so convinced that there is no work that not even the words of one of the most well-established Ottoman historians can’t even change you otherwise?

I also don’t appreciate you questioning my intelligence by insinuating I didn’t realize all the names listed are not Ottoman historians. Of course I knew that, especially seeing as in some cases their very titles were listed next to them. I was just making a generalization, and of course like Richard said many of those non-Ottomans opposed the French law to ban genocide denial instead of actually denying the genocide. By that thinking they also deny the Holocaust. By that thinking I also deny the Armenian Genocide because I don’t think denial of it should be illegal. There is a clear difference between the two and unless those French members actually wrote a paper on how the genocide is not real as opposed to signing a letter saying denial of it is not a crime they cannot in good conscience be listed as disagreeing with the genocide thesis. This is just an attempt at list padding with prominent names.

57
Lucrèce
June 3, 2008

As far as the Liberte Pour l’Histoire Groupe in France, they do not contest the Armenian Genocide but rather are against any legislation restricting discussion on historical subjects - including the Loi Gayssot (the law on Holocaust denial).
That’s right for a part of this association, but not for another part, including Jean-Pierre Azéma, Pierre Nora, René Rémond, and, of course, Gilles Veinstein.

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=33114

"It is easier to discuss the Armenian question in Turkey than it is in Paris" said Nora, highlighting the conferences held for the Armenian issue in Turkey and the Turkish government’s initiative to create a commission of historians, which he considers significant improvements.

And in his interview to Le Figaro, he said:

Q. L’intention n’est-elle pas de punir une forme perverse de négationnisme, pratiquée par de célèbres historiens ?A. Non, vous vous trompez. De la part des historiens auxquels vous faites allusion, que ce soit Gilles Veinstein ou Bernard Lewis, il n’y a jamais eu l’expression du moindre négationnisme. Aucun de ces éminents chercheurs n’a jamais nié l’immensité du massacre subi par les Arméniens. Lewis et Veinstein se sont engagés, tour à tour, dans une discussion critique dont l’enjeu n’était aucunement d’être affirmatifs ou définitifs - mais de mettre en perspective ce que l’on appelle, en termes juridiques, un « génocide ». La tempête déclenchée, il y a quelques années en France, autour de Bernard Lewis relève du terrorisme intellectuel.

Quel terrorisme intellectuel ?Bernard Lewis est un très grand historien, dont les analyses sur l’histoire du Proche-Orient et sur l’islam font l’objet de la plus vaste reconnaissance internationale. Eh bien, il a suffi qu’après quinze années de recherches fouillées sur le massacre des Arméniens, il en vienne à écarter la qualification de « crime contre l’humanité », pour qu’en France, la « bien-pensance » le condamne en justice. Il aurait pourtant fallu se souvenir que, dès qu’elle fut forgée, à la Libération, l’appellation de génocide fut une notion intentionnaliste ; il aurait suffi de comprendre qu’elle désigne la décision, prise par un État, de conduire une politique d’extermination. Lorsque des historiens se demandent si le massacre des Arméniens relève de l’intentionnalisme génocidaire, il ne s’agit nullement pour eux de pinailler ou de contester l’existence de ce qui pourrait être un génocide au sens général ou générique du terme. Non. Le problème dont nous avons à débattre aujourd’hui est ailleurs.

All the members of Liberté pour l’histoire are victims of dashnak’s hate.

58
Lucrèce
June 3, 2008

All I have to say is that line came from an Ottoman historian, not some random blog commentor.

Et tout ce que j’écris, moi, vient de plusieurs historiens de grande renommée.

Or are you just so convinced that there is no work that not even the words of one of the most well-established Ottoman historians can’t even change you otherwise?
Les arguments arméniens, je les ai pris les uns après les autres, et j’ai vu ce qu’en disaient MM. Lewy, Dyer, Erickson, Veinstein, McCarthy, Mango, Shaw, Salt, Gürün, Sonyel, etc. Ce ne sont sûrement pas les sottises de M. Quataert, tout grand ottomaniste qu’il est, qui vont me faire changer d’avis. Invoquer l’Organisation spéciale comme exécutant principal du prétendu génocide arménien, après les travaux de MM. Lewy et Erickson, c’est montrer sa profonde ignorance de la question, voire sa partialité proarménienne. D’ailleurs, vous n’avez pas répondu à ce sujet, qui est pourtant l’unique argument de M. Quataert que vous ayez cité.

I also don’t appreciate you questioning my intelligence by insinuating I didn’t realize all the names listed are not Ottoman historians.

Eh bien, si vous ne voulez pas lire des commentaires pareils, écrivez plus clairement ! Je donne une liste comprenant des non-ottomanistes, et vous répondez : les ottomanistes ne doivent pas être les seuls à décider.
Que vouliez-vous que j’en déduise ?

I was just making a generalization, and of course like Richard said many of those non-Ottomans opposed the French law to ban genocide denial instead of actually denying the genocide. By that thinking they also deny the Holocaust. By that thinking I also deny the Armenian Genocide because I don’t think denial of it should be illegal. There is a clear difference between the two and unless those French members actually wrote a paper on how the genocide is not real as opposed to signing a letter saying denial of it is not a crime they cannot in good conscience be listed as disagreeing with the genocide thesis. This is just an attempt at list padding with prominent names.

Ma liste ne comprend que des historiens ayant explicitement critiqué les accusations arméniennes. Je n’ai pas mentionné les autres, comme Jean-Pierre Vernant, qui, lui, a seulement critiqué les lois mémorielles, sans rejeter l’idée d’un génocide arménien.

MM. Azéma, Nora et Rémond ont clairement dit que la contestation de la notion de génocide, dans le cas arménien, était une hypothèse parfaitement admissible, défendue, avec des arguments scientifiques, par d’excellents collègues. Les autres historiens de ma liste ont écrit des articles ou des livres démontant tout ou partie des accusations arméniennes.

Je n’ai donc pas fait dire à d’éminents historiens ce qu’ils n’ont pas dit. Je ne m’appelle pas Dadrian.

Au fait : je présente mes excuses à tout le monde pour les coquilles et les lourdeurs de style dans certains de mes messages.

59
Richard
June 4, 2008

Lucrece,

Eric Zurcher is a Dutch professor at Leiden University. Whether or not he has taken Swiss citizenship is irrelevant.

His view of the issue is:
"At the same time, the feeling that what had happened should never be allowed to happen again; that Anatolia should not go the way of the Balkans and was in a very real sense the “Turk’s last stand” was certainly instrumental in the decisions to embark on the wholesale extermination of the Armenians and the expulsion of the Greek Orthodox"
www.let.leidenuniv.nl/tcimo/tulp/Research/ejz16.htm

He considers Akcam’s work to be authoritative.

Pierre Nora has not pronounced himself one way or the other:
"It is not up to French historians to speak out about the Armenian genocide because they do not have an understanding of its specific conditions, said Nora, as he declined to express his own ideas over the Armenian issue, mentioning instead he is rather interested in the French politician’s attitude towards the Armenian question."
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=4& url=http://poligazette.com/2008/05/31/denying-fake-genocide-5-years-in-jail/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.turkishweekly.net%2Fcomments.php%3Fid%3D2095&ei=GL5FSI24B6TOeoLHsbgI&usg=AFQjCNHXCa-fPEMPolkcmCgPhmngQOdecQ&sig2=hUXesf-6ETUnpWrah0tNQw


60
nevber
June 4, 2008

Richard, answer me 2 questions…. and please give me a direct answer. DO NOT go into some kind of a tangent on who said what..1) Why are the Armenian government is insisting on keeping their archives closed? What are they afraid?2) Why won’t the Armenian government and the diaspora come together with Turkey and have a joint research team from all sides to find out what really happened in 1915? Again, What are they afraid of?Turks have been pushing for it for years but the Armenians are running away like plague? Unless of course they have something to hide!!!!


61
R
June 4, 2008

1) The state archives in Armenia are open.
www.armarchives.am/

The Dashnak Party archives in Boston are also open:
www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=105568

2) The Turkish proposal for a joint commission is recent and was made by Prime Minister Erdogan in a letter to President Kocharian. Kocharian responded in a letter to Erdogan stating that all issues between the two countries could be addressed once there are diplomatic relations. Turkey has refused to re-establish the relations it broke off in 1993.

Nevertheless there are ongoing studies and meetings between Turkish and Armenian historians. www.armturkwokshop.org/

Also of interest is Dr. Hilmar Kaiser’s view of the Turkish archives:
www.armeniangenocide.com/showthread.php?p=28420

62
Lucrèce
June 4, 2008

The archives of Dashnak Party are open only for the dashnaks:

www.tallarmeniantale.com/lewy-interview.htm

Q: Which countries’ archives were you able to research?

A: American, Turkish, German, Russian and British. I would like to have access to Armenian archives as well. Dashnaks’ archives are very important. Historical research cannot be based on one document, different documents from varied sources need to be analyzed and compared.

63
Lucrèce
June 4, 2008

The Armenian state archives are theoritically open, but in fact the research is dangerous…

www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=21027
www.yektan.org/

64
Hans
June 4, 2008

All:
Erik Zurcher is a sinologist and died a couple of months ago.
Eric-Jan Zurcher is a Dutch professor of Turkish languages and cultures, co-founder of Dutch Institute for higher Education in Anakara (2006) and in 2007 the Turkish Institute in the Netherlands. He is awarded the Medal of High Distinction from the Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, an honor rarely awarded.
Everything is sum up here
internations.blogspot.com/2007_08_30_archive.html
Next to this, the Dutch Centre for Holocaust and Genocide studies
www.chgs.nl/index_eng.html is an independent institute (read the three sentences of Anne Frank on the Front page) Tom Zwaam of this institute together with Eric Jan Zurcher support the Armenian genocide claim although the latter disaprove the tactics used by some in the Armenian diaspora.

65
Lucrèce
June 4, 2008

Eric Zurcher is a Dutch professor at Leiden University. Whether or not he has taken Swiss citizenship is irrelevant.

Perhaps, but i’m allways happy to idificar errors of my detractores, especially the supporters of Armenian claims.

"At the same time, the feeling that what had happened should never be allowed to happen again; that Anatolia should not go the way of the Balkans and was in a very real sense the “Turk’s last stand” was certainly instrumental in the decisions to embark on the wholesale extermination of the Armenians and the expulsion of the Greek Orthodox"

Very good, my dear. And where is the term genocide? Why Mr. Zürcher write "that Anatolia should not go the way of the Balkans"? What happened in Balkans, during the years 1821-1829, 1876-1878, 1912-1913? Monopoly’s parties? Picnics?

louisville.edu/a-s/history/turks/Russian Atrocities.pdf
louisville.edu/a-s/history/turks/atrocites_bulgares_en_thrace.pdf
www.meforum.org/article_print.php?id=1108&v=4627852121

Pierre Nora has not pronounced himself one way or the other:
Of course, but Mr. Nora has said that the arguments of Mrs. Lewis and Veinstein are admissible, because the question was-it-genocide-or-not has no definitive answer today. Mr. Nora is against both the Gayssot Act of 1990 and the proposition law of 2006, but Mr. Nora has never said that Mr. Faurisson or Mr. Irving were respectable scholars, who ask the right questions.
See you the difference?

66
Lucrèce
June 4, 2008
Eric Zurcher is a Dutch professor at Leiden University. Whether or not he has taken Swiss citizenship is irrelevant.

Perhaps, but i’m allways happy to idificar errors of my detractores, especially the supporters of Armenian claims.

"At the same time, the feeling that what had happened should never be allowed to happen again; that Anatolia should not go the way of the Balkans and was in a very real sense the “Turk’s last stand” was certainly instrumental in the decisions to embark on the wholesale extermination of the Armenians and the expulsion of the Greek Orthodox"
Very good, my dear. And where is the term genocide? Why Mr. Zürcher write "that Anatolia should not go the way of the Balkans"? What happened in Balkans, during the years 1821-1829, 1876-1878, 1912-1913? Monopoly’s parties? Picnics?

louisville.edu/a-s/history/turks/Russian Atrocities.pdf
louisville.edu/a-s/history/turks/atrocites_bulgares_en_thrace.pdf
www.meforum.org/article_print.php?id=1108&v=4627852121

Pierre Nora has not pronounced himself one way or the other:
Of course, but Mr. Nora has said that the arguments of Mrs. Lewis and Veinstein are admissible, because the question was-it-genocide-or-not has no definitive answer today. Mr. Nora is against both the Gayssot Act of 1990 and the proposition law of 2006, but Mr. Nora has never said that Mr. Faurisson or Mr. Irving were respectable scholars, who ask the right questions.
See you the difference?

67
Richard
June 4, 2008
Hans, thank you for the information and the blog posts.

Lucrece, please read Hans’s posts which clarify Professor Zucher’s position. As for Pierre Nora, who is a specialist in French history, it would seem that like Zucher he should be removed from your list. Are there others?


68
Lucrèce
June 4, 2008
Lucrece, please read Hans’s posts which clarify Professor Zucher’s position.
Where is the word genocide in Mr. Zürcher’s declarations and books?


69
nevber
June 5, 2008
What is happening between the thinkers who believe there was indeed “genocide" and those who believe there was NOT are like a dog trying to catch it’s own tail. This is an endless circular debate. The reason for it is because there is no concrete historical proof. In my opinion, what is important here is to convince the general public (US/EU) of the legality and the reality of whether genocide was committed by the Ottomans or not. The truth is, mainly the Armenian Diaspora has been very good at mobilizing and infusing the opinion of the western conscientious on this particular issue. They are very good at silencing decent, debate and creating a monologue preferable to their line of thinking. The Turkish side unfortunately did not achieve this. For many reasons including political and economical developments in Turkey for the last 60 or so years, Turks were unable to mobilize and put their point of view in the public arena. So as a result of this empty space, Armenian lobby and supporters have been vigorously and comfortable pushing for their own agenda. The conscientious is changing in Turkey. Turks are feeling unfairly judged by politicians and are now are voicing their own opinion on the issue of G-word and are trying to create a dialogue between Armenians and Turks, rather then a monologue like the Armenians have been doing for so long…. What the Turks need to do is, mobilize even more, spend lots and lots of money on politicians, media conglomerates in targeting to push for their own agenda just like the Armenians…. It is that simple! As a result, the Armenian lobby could not comfortably say “THE WORLD IS ON OUR SIDE, THERE FORE IT IS GENOCIDE”…. So, this “blog” is very important but not enough… there needs to be lots and lots more blogs like this one…. The public desperately needs to hear both sides of the debate!!!!


70
Lucrèce
June 5, 2008
What the Turks need to do is, mobilize even more, spend lots and lots of money on politicians, media conglomerates in targeting to push for their own agenda just like the Armenians…. It is that simple! As a result, the Armenian lobby could not comfortably say “THE WORLD IS ON OUR SIDE, THERE FORE IT IS GENOCIDE”…. So, this “blog” is very important but not enough… there needs to be lots and lots more blogs like this one…. The public desperately needs to hear both sides of the debate!!!!
I applauded your propositions! But if the Turkish-American are, since some years, relatively well organized (and even very well in Bulgaria), in Western Europe, and especially in France (where, however, live approximately 300 000 Turks), the Turkish associations are pitifull, and the Turkish lobbying, about the Armenian claims, is almost non-existent. I have, unfortunaly, a direct knowledge of these regrettable facts.


71
Beemer
June 5, 2008
This is plain one sided/twisted Turkish government sponsored propaganda.

Get over it, or you can stay on it as much as you want, the WORLD knows what has happened.

RIP Armenian Genocide innocent victims of 1.5 million people.

72
nevber
June 5, 2008
Lucree, don’t forget this type of political "play" is all very new for Turkey and Turks around the world. They are just learning the name of the game and that is why they are soooo behind the curve. But the awakening has started…. Beemer, you just made a complete fool of yourself! I laughed so loud that I almost fell of my chair. Everything that is related to this issue, in the Armenian mind is a Turkish governments’ propaganda…. J J J WAKE UP & SMELL THE COFFEE. Turks, independent from their government are mobilizing and understanding the need to fight back. Your opinion is not only infantile but also extremely funny. Thanks for making laugh on a boring Thursday afternoon.

73
nevber
June 5, 2008
Correction. Thanks for making ME laugh on a boring Thursday afternoon.

74
Lucrèce
June 5, 2008
Lucree, don’t forget this type of political "play" is all very new for Turkey and Turks around the world.
That’s right, but:

1) The anti-Turkish campaigns by nationalist Armenians began in 1965.

2) When you discover that the group of Turkish associations, in the Lyon’s region, has only 3.000 euros (around 4.600 dollars) in case, you are disappointed. The Turks of this region are not all working poor, far from them.

75
Michael van der Galien
June 5, 2008
Nevber: it’s funny isn’t it? Frankly, with all the accusations of Armenians (me being a paid agent for the Turkish government), I’m starting to wonder when the hell I will receive my first paycheck. I mean, I’m a student man. I can use the do’.

But you are right; slowly but surely Turks are waking up, and realizing that they’ve got to act against the slanderous Armenian accusations. For if they do not, their country (its borders) is in jeapordy, as is their money (secretly, Armenians are preparing now to wage a strong compensation campaign). On top of that, if they would remain silent, the memories of their fathers and grandfathers would be dishonored.

And the truth would suffer tremendously.

So that’s why Turks are becoming more active.

What enables them to become more active, by the way, isn’t money. It’s knowledge and integration.

Up until recent years, most Turks didn’t speak English, and most migrated Turks weren’t actively involved in the country they migrated to.

That is changing now, however; most Turks living in the West are not immigrants themselves. Their parents or even grandparents were. These Turks are fully integrated and want to play an active role in society… while still feeling a strong band with Turkey.

76
Lucrèce
June 5, 2008
What about the crimes committed by the Greek against the Muslims / Turks?
Compilation on the Greek atrocities:
louisville.edu/a-s/history/turks/greekatrocities_smyrna.pdf
louisville.edu/a-s/history/turks/Greek Atrocities in Asia Minor.pdf
louisville.edu/a-s/history/turks/coalises_balkaniques_5.pdf

77
Lucrèce
June 5, 2008
But please, mister van der Galien, don’t write the Greeks. All the Greeks was not war criminal, and the Greek army is the only christian army, who has tried a part of his war criminals, in the years 1918-1922.

78
Lucrèce
June 5, 2008
Sorry: All the Greeks were not war criminals.

79
nevber
June 5, 2008
Michael, keep on writing … Good Job! There are a lot more of us then then they realize. (Independent from a pretty useless former and present Turkish government)

80
zekiye
June 6, 2008
It is true that the Armenians are incredibly intolerant to anti Armenian thesis or any thesis even in partial discrepancy with their own. And it is a fact that books which have such characteristics (like the book of Katchaznouni, the first prime-minister of the Armenian state, Dashnagzoutiun Has Nothing to do Anymore, the book of K.S.Papazian, Patriotism Perverted, the book of Samuel Weems , A Terrorist State: Armenia) are banned in Armenia. But more unacceptable attitute of the Armenians is their approach to people who do not think like them:

The home of American Professor Stanford Shaw of the University of California-Los Angeles was firebombed in retaliation for his academic courage in disputing the Armenian genocide claim, in 1977 (washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071016/COMMENTARY).

Sixty nine academicians who specialized in Turkish, Ottoman and Middle Eastern studies from 44 different American universities and colleges published a declaration in The New York Times on May 19, 1986 and declared: …….No signatory of this statement wishes to minimize the scope of Armenian suffering. We are likewise cognizant that it cannot be viewed as separate from the suffering experienced by the Muslim inhabitants of the region. The weight of evidence so far uncovered points in the direction of serious inter-communal warfare (perpetrated by Muslim and Christian irregular forces), complicated by disease, famine, suffering and massacres in Anatolia and adjoining areas during the First World War. Indeed, throughout the years in question, the region was the scene of more or less continuous warfare, not unlike the tragedy which has gone on in Lebenon for the past decade. The resulting death toll among both Muslim and Christian communities of the region was immense. But much more remains to be discovered before historians will be able to sort out precisely responsibility between warring and innocent, and to identify the causes for the events which resulted in the death or removal of large numbers of the eastern Anatolian population, Christian and Muslim alike………… the history of the Ottoman-Armenians is much debated among scholars, many of whom do not agree with the historical assumptions embodied in the wording of H.J.Res.192. ….Such a resolution, based on historically questionable assumptions, can only damage the cause of honest historical enquiry, and damage the credibility of the American legistlative process.

The producers of the ‘historical documentary film Sarı Gelin (www.sarigelinbelgeseli.com) suggested to interview some of these academicians. However they were rejected because these academicians and their families were threatened by the Armenians, via telephone calls and letters, in 1986 for signing this declaration. Justin McCarthy’s family had to get police protection. Prof. McCarthy himself was threatened with losing his job if he continued his research. turkishweekly.net/comments.php/id2418/top/comments.php?id=594, www.tallarmeniantale.com/69histors-charny.htm, www.tallarmeniantale.com/intimidate.htm

The Armenians sued Bernard Lewis, the French historian famous for his Middle Eastern and Ottoman studies, in France, in 1993 just because he wrote in Le Monde that ‘the 1915 events were not genocide.

Life of American judge Samuel Weems was threatened by the Armenians since he published his book ‘A terrorist State: Armenia’.

In Netherlands, Turkish origined party members who told that they did not agree with the Armenian thesis were discharged from the party, because of the pressure of the Armenian voters of the country.

Additionally, Turkish university students studying in the USA are under threat of Armenian students, just because they reject the Armenian claims. In some universities it reaches to such an extreme point that one young university student needs police escort.

And at present saying what happened in 1915 is not genocide could be life threatening in Republic of Armenia. Imagine giving a conference with Turkish academicians there. And did you hear any Armenian who attempted to hold a conference advocating that Armenian genocide did not occur, in Armenia?

In spite of all these facts, the Armenians continuously attack the Turks claiming that Armenian thesis can not be talked in Turkey, since there is not freedom of speech.

Could anybody tell me, if Armenian thesis were banned in Turkey, then how could Armenian Ara Sarafyan give a conference on the thesis of Armenian genocide in İstanbul and discuss them with the Turkish citizens? www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=102831

And as a most important point, Turkish historians, Turkish prime minister and Turkish Assembly several times suggested Armenia to discuss these events together with historians from both sides and historians from other countries. Everybody in Turkey knows very well that those who advocate the Armenian thesis most passionately are the Armenians themselves. Could anybody tell me again if Turkey was a place where Armenian thesis were banned, then why did Turkish prime minister and Turkish Assembly several times call on Armenia to discuss these events with whoever they choose?

No wisdom can overlook this Armenian hypocrisy.


Source: PoliGazette, May 31, 2008