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11 June 2008

2493) Reclaim Western Armenia by Michael van der Galien, Editor-in-Chief

Ah, I always find it entertaining when extremists (and racists at that) make clear what their real goals are. The Armenian propagandists are constantly trying to convince the world that it’s not about money or lands, no, it’s about principles. But if it was about principles why would they lie through their teeth in order to get as many people as possible to support their interpretation of history?

Right.


It’s not about principles. It’s about greed. Proven today by Henry Astarjian, a leading Armenian ‘intellectual.’

“The inherent sacred duty of this generation and the future generations to reclaim land that is Western Armenia!”

For those who are wondering, with Western Armenia this man basically means, here it comes, Turkey.

June 10, 2008
Comments »
1
Lucrèce
June 10, 2008
“Dear compatriots, against Turkey, we will continue to organize us. Us to organize for better mobilizing us. Us to mobilize for better achieving our goals. To better achieve our goals to gain. Not only for the recognition of the genocide, but also for the construction of a free, independent and reunified Armenia, so that all together, we can take again possession of Van, Much, Kars, Sassun, Bitlis and Erzurum. (Chers compatriotes, contre la Turquie, nous allons continuer à nous organiser. Nous organiser pour mieux nous mobiliser. Nous mobiliser pour mieux atteindre nos objectifs. Mieux atteindre nos objectifs pour gagner. Non seulement pour la reconnaissance du génocide mais aussi pour l’édification d’une Arménie libre, indépendante et réunifiée pour que tous ensemble, nous puissions reprendre possession de Van, Mouch, Kars, Sassoun, Bitlis et Erzeroum.)”

Mourad Papazian, chief of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation for Western Europe, speech in Marseille, 24 April 2006.

2
Artaç
June 10, 2008
Edited by the Editor-in-Chief. This is utterly unacceptable. We have noted your IP address.

3
A Human-being
June 10, 2008
People think that jews and armenians move and think in a single unified mass. "The Armenians say"… "The Zionist plot" etc etc. This is the sort of talk and beleif that lead to the Holocaust and Armenian genocide in the first place. Just because Henry Astarjian, your "leading armenian intellectual" said this does not mean that it is representative of the thoughts/goals of the Republic of Armenia or the Armenian people in general. A quick google search of "Henry Astarjian" will show that he is a Neurologist from Iraq! You are both paranoid and in denial my friend. Thanks for coming out anyways.

4
Lucrèce
June 10, 2008
"Declaration of the 18th General Assembly of S.D.H.P. - 2005 The 18th General Assembly of the Social Democratic Hunchakian Party was held during the last weeks of November in Larnaka, Cyprus. 52 delegates representing 12 adherent part regions participated along with the outgoing Central Executive Board.
[…]
Summarizing the viewpoints expressed by the delegates on the subject of those relations, the Assembly came to the conclusion that on non-official levels that dialogue lead to the recognition of the Genocide and developing the Turkish public opinion in that regard, while the official Armenian-Turkish discussion be conditional on the recognition of the Genocide. The Assembly reaffirmed the traditional positions of the S. D. Hunchakian Party regarding the Armenian Cause and territorial demands."
Official Website of Hunchakian Party, Australian branch :

http://www.hunchak.org.au/aboutus/historical_Declaration2005.html

5
JanJan
June 10, 2008
Who wants to bet comment number 3 will be deleted for being "racist" while number 2 might stay?

Attributing what your "leading Armenian intellectual" (which apparently all one needs to be a diaspora leader in your eyes is to be Armenian and say something) is about the same as attributing what comment number 2 says to a feeling held by all Turks. Nice try.

Talking abot stuff you don’t know the first thing about in a constant move towards labeling Armenians as a racist nation is getting really tiresome. Don’t you have something more newsworthy to write about?

6
Artaç
June 10, 2008
al you bloodusuckers.

7
Artaç
June 10, 2008
Ben nefret edyorum, sen all ermeniler! Ben memnun olyorum biz etdk, sen anneanneler. Biz hınçı yanlış yorumlıyeceğiz. Uzun zamandır Turks bilinizyorsunuz! F U Ermenistan!!!!!

8
JanJan
June 10, 2008
Wow Michael, hope you’ve seen that you’ve gone far enough. Stop these needless Armenia-bashing posts before you go any further and foment something even worse than we are already seeing here. I don’t know if you are prepared for what you are fostering amongst some readers.

9
Lucrèce
June 10, 2008
Article 11 of the Armenian Declaration of Independence of August 23, 1990 refers to Eastern Anatolia of Turkey as Western Armenia and as such beholds that this area is part of Armenia. Since the Armenian constitution recognizes as a basis “the fundamental principles of the Armenian statehood and national aspirations engraved in the Declaration of Independence of Armenia”, it likewise accepts the characterization of Eastern Anatolia as Western Armenia and this, albeit indirectly, translates into the advancement of territorial claims.

10
Lucrèce
June 10, 2008
In response to "A Human-being": why don’t you comment Mr. Papazian’s speech? And the declaration of Hunchakian Party in 2005? There are always valid in 2008. If the dashnaks and the hunchaks are certainly not all the Armenians, there are the most important part of the Armenian activists… with the former members of ASALA, who are more extremist, if it’s possible.

11
Ara
June 10, 2008
In the 80’s, when Argentina "invaded" the Faulkland Islands, a tiny territory the size of a postcard, Britain went to war to reclaim it. The US stood behind Britain. The Jews, after 2,000 years out of their own homeland, not only went back and claimed it as their own, they even deported the thousands of Palestinians who had been living there for centuries. The US is Israel’s strongest ally.

My ancestors lived for thousands of years in what is now called "Turkey" and the Turks do not even acknowledge that. I can never go back to live in my homeland and even visiting is hard, thanks to my Armenian last name. I cannot even visit the graves of my family members who were slaughtered by the Turks in 1915 because to even mention the Genocide in Turkey is a crime. Moreover, a significant portion of Eastern Turkey was set aside to be the Armenian homeland in 1920 by the Treaty of Sevres, which Turkey signed (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_S%C3%A8vres). So why should I and other like-minded Armenians be branded extremists because we think we have a legitimate right to territory that belongs to us? What would the US do if a foreign power invaded even a minor, insignificant, uninhabited portion of its territory?

12
Artaç
June 10, 2008
Bad Ermeni and Kurds

13
Michael van der Galien, Editor-in-Chief
June 10, 2008
Stop the bullshit Ara. Perhaps it’s important to realize for foreigners that the homeland he talks about, well, that Armenians never and i mean never in their history formed a majority there. Armenians have the somewhat strange tendency to call every part of the region where Armenians have lived or live "Armenia." This regardless of whether or not they were and are the majority in those lands.

The only way for Armenians to later become a majority in what is today the country Armenia was by ethnically cleansing the lands. Armenians and Russians together removed Turks from these lands, and moved in Armenians. The result? A ‘pure’ Armenia, with no Turks.

This is also the approach they want to take to Turkey. They lived there once and still live there, but they conveniently ignore the fact that they are not and have never been the majority there. The majority has been Turk. And still is Turk. But, they want to claim it for Armenia because some Armenians live there. In other words, they want the minority to rule over the majority.

There’s, of course, only one way to achieve that since the majority will never allow such a thing; cleanse the lands.

They’ve done this in Azerbaijan (more on that later; they are busily committing genocide there and have committed genocide there already), and they’re determined to do the same thing in Turkey.

All the time idiotic Westerners are giving them all the reason to believe they can get away with it by supporting their claims regarding the events in 1915. Pathetic.

O, and Ara: Turkey will never allow you and your fellow racists to do what you all want. You can try to take back those lands, but you will have an army of, then, 80 million people standing between you and your dreams of oppression and minority rule. And those 80 million people will fight to death to defend their country.

Even the backing of a powerful country, or the US, will not help Armenia get these lands. Turks won’t allow it. In fact, if it would ever come to that point, and I live hopefully with my then-wife in Turkey, I would personally sign up for the army and kick Armenia and its allies out of Turkey and back the hell-hole they came from (which they only got by committing genocide on Turkish Muslims).

14
Leo Aryatsi
June 10, 2008
Artsakh has but Naxijevan, Kars, Ararat, Van, Moush, Sassoun, Erzerum et cetera will all return to Mother Armenia. Treaty of Sevres is only a small part of proper Armenia.

15
Leo Aryatsi
June 10, 2008
misha the only way to stop the bullshit here is to expose your lies and propaganda which is coordinated with turkey.
the 80 million you speak of is the total population
30 million or so are Kurds!
Who will the Kurds fight with misha?

16
Leo Aryatsi
June 10, 2008
You and your gazette are jokes

17
JanJan
June 10, 2008
“I would personally sign up for the army and kick Armenia and its allies out of Turkey and back the hell-hole they came from…”

This coming from the self-described non-racist person who has no problem with Armenians who aren’t racist themselves. I hope you see your own hypocrisy by now.

18
Michael van der Galien, Editor-in-Chief
June 10, 2008
Artsakh has but Naxijevan, Kars, Ararat, Van, Moush, Sassoun, Erzerum et cetera will all return to Mother Armenia. Treaty of Sevres is only a small part of proper Armenia.

Yeah. And you will take those lands with what army exactly?

And stop your racist, nationalist, supremacist idiocy talking about taking the lands of a completely different country.

JanJan; when you want to take lands that aren’t yours, from a people that isn’t yours, you deserve the epitome racist. Or at least supremacist. And you should be treated as an international outcast for even suggesting the idea to claim lands where others live, in majorities, and where they have lived for thousands of years - also as the majority.

You guys should be laughed out of every single meeting.

And who the hell is Misha?

It is, by the way, enlightening for non-Armenian and non-Turkish readers of this website to read your comments. Quite some Americans especially actually believe that Armenians are going after Turkey out of some sort of enlightened principle, not greed and hatred. Now they see , however, that your true goal is to destroy a country by taking lands that aren’t yours.

You all tried to do that of course, during World War I and afterwards. Sadly the Turks were a tiny bit stronger than you were, weren’t they? You try to take lands which are yours, after which you ethnically cleanse the lands, then cry foul that the majority fights back, and you plan to start all over again. Hilarious hypocritical stuff.

19
warren mcrayan
June 10, 2008
THE WORLD IS SUFFERING ENOUGH FROM IGNORANCE,WHY DO WE NEED YOURS TO EXACERBATE MATTERS…one persons greed if true does not erase a colosal atrocity committed by human beings over another…do you have to experience excruciating pain personaly to believe the pain experieced by millions…there cant be that many liars..Western Armenia

20
alex
June 10, 2008
to editor: did u say turks lived in those lands for thousands of years? get your history straight my educated friend. turks came to these lands as wild nomads from turkmenistan and surrounding areas around 1200 a.d. they pillaged, raped, burned, and slaughtered their way in and tried to wipe out the armenians so that they could claim these lands. but go read a book and find out the real truth for yourself. the tide always turns.

21
Michael van der Galien, Editor-in-Chief
June 10, 2008
wild nomads

they pillaged, raped, burned, and slaughtered their way in

Firstly: all those who wonder why I call Armenians racists, well, stop wondering.

Secondly: those of us who actually know a bit about this subject dear Alex, know that the ones living in what’s today Turkey were, for the far majority, not Armenians. The Selçuks, forefathers of many of today’s Turks, had already established quite a civilization.

Thirdly: just because you too lived somewhere 2000 years ago, or 3000 years ago, does not mean that you can know cleanse the lands and establish a country there in your own name. What’s more interesting, is that the mythical Armenia you guys often talk about, has never existed. ‘Mother Armenia’ has never existed… well, for 30 years or so you had somewhat independence, but that’s many hundreds of years ago or so (and it was quite small).

No, Armenia, the Greater Armenia you talk about, is a mythical nationalistic fantasy, as dangerous and as racist as the vision Hitler had for a Greater Germany.

Which is, I guess, partially why you guys supported Hitler so much in World War II.

22
Lucrèce
June 10, 2008
Which is, I guess, partially why you guys supported Hitler so much in World War II.
Not all this guys, but a great number of dashnaks:

http://www.ataa.org/reference/nazi-ozer.html
http://www.turkishweekly.net/comments.php?id=1133
http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/Nazi-Collaboration.htm

This Nazi-Dashnaks are today official heroes for the ARF and the kotcharian-Sarkissian clique.

http://www.arf.am/English/ARFNews/1999/199902.htm
http://www.humanite.fr/popup_imprimer.html?id_article=287967

23
Lucrèce
June 10, 2008
This coming from the self-described non-racist person who has no problem with Armenians who aren’t racist themselves. I hope you see your own hypocrisy by now.
Where is hypocrisy in Mr. van der Galiën’s words? Mr. van der Galiën denounce the Armenian racists, suprematists, and expansionists; not all the Armenians. Were the antifascits of the 1920’s-1930’s racists against Italians? Obviously no.

24
JanJan
June 10, 2008
“Firstly: all those who wonder why I call Armenians racists, well, stop wondering.”

For those who wonder why Michael insists on stereotyping an entire race based on comments he gets on his blog (which makes numerous anti-Armenian posts for seemingly no reason as if to invite such anger), well, keep wondering.

“Which is, I guess, partially why you guys supported Hitler so much in World War II.”

Which is why hundreds of thousands (the vast majority, a phrase you are suddenly so fond of) of Armenians fought against the Germans as Soviets and Americans. You are so full of it.

25
zekiye
June 10, 2008
From: Journal of Turkish Weekly, December 25, 2007 ARF Bureau’s Hay Dat and Political Affairs Office Director Kiro Manoyan said "The Turkish-Armenian border should be reconsidered".Manoyan added that “The Treaty of Kars, which determines the border, doesn’t have legal effect. Thus, Armenia and Turkey should adjust the issue”.
According to Mr. Manoyan the Treaty of Sevres could serve as a legal basis. He further continued:“The necessity to review the borders emerged when Armenia obtained independence. Soviet Armenia could not insist on revision while formation of independent Armenia, the assignee of the First Republic, put into force the Treaty of Sevres, the only document that can determine the border".Armenian Constitution calls the eastern Turkey as ‘Western Armenia and Armenian Government does not official recognise Turkey’s national borders. Armenia also does not recognise the neigbouring Azerbaijan’s national borders and still occupies 20 percent of Azeri territories. Armenian nationalists time to time express their irredentist interests regarding the Georgis’ Jevahiti region. For many Armenians Jevahiti is an Armenian territory and should be annexed to Yerevan.

26
zekiye
June 10, 2008
From: December 25, 2007, Journal of Turkish Weekly

ARF Bureau’s Hay Dat and Political Affairs Office Director Kiro Manoyan said "The Turkish-Armenian border should be reconsidered".

Manoyan added that “The Treaty of Kars, which determines the border, doesn’t have legal effect. Thus, Armenia and Turkey should adjust the issue”. According to Mr. Manoyan the Treaty of Sevres could serve as a legal basis.

He further continued: “The necessity to review the borders emerged when Armenia obtained independence. Soviet Armenia could not insist on revision while formation of independent Armenia, the assignee of the First Republic, put into force the Treaty of Sevres, the only document that can determine the border".

Armenian Constitution calls the eastern Turkey as ‘Western Armenia and Armenian Government does not official recognise Turkey’s national borders. Armenia also does not recognise the neigbouring Azerbaijan’s national borders and still occupies 20 percent of Azeri territories. Armenian nationalists time to time express their irredentist interests regarding the Georgis’ Jevahiti region. For many Armenians Jevahiti is an Armenian territory and should be annexed to Yerevan.

27
Lucrèce
June 10, 2008
For those who wonder why Michael insists on stereotyping an entire race based on comments he gets on his blog

Mr. van der Galiën wrote Armenians, not the Armenians. English language is not as precise as the French language about it. In French, there are les (les Arméniens = the Armenians) et des (des Arméniens = a part of the Armenians) for the plural.

Which is why hundreds of thousands (the vast majority, a phrase you are suddenly so fond of) of Armenians fought against the Germans as Soviets and Americans.
Hundred of thousands? Really? Anyway, the Armenian-Americans and the majority of Armenian-Soviet had no choice. It’s most interesting to note that there were at least as many Armenians as French in the German Army during the WWII (30 000). There were around 40 millions of French in 1940, but only few millions of Armenians, and fewer still of Armenians in Nazi Europe.

28
zekiye
June 10, 2008
PROMINENT ARMENIAN JOURNALIST: OUR GOAL IS RECOMPENSATION AND LAND FROM TURKEY17 Aralık 2007, Kaynak : Hürriyet A prominent member of the Armenian community in the US, journalist-writer Harut Sasunian, has stated this week in an article published on the Armenian internet site AZG Daily that "The ultimate goal of the Armenians is for the allegations on genocide to be recognized, and to receive recompensation and land from Turkey."Sasunian also recommended in his article that the Armenian diaspora community start following a new strategy to this end.

Sasunian also called on readers in the Armenian community to bring their demands to the "appropriate national and international court system."

29
nevber
June 10, 2008
nfortunately, this horrible disease called “RACISIM” cripples humanity to the level total chaos and baboon like behavior. (No disrespect to the baboon population, but I had to use an animal to describe the situation) This disease is prevalent amount the whites, blacks, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, atheists, Turks, Armenians, Americans, Europeans etc etc etc….. Instead of adding to the chaos and baboon like talk that is coming from various commentators in this blog, we should be able to discuss history with out accusing each other of “Rape, Pillage, in human behavior, uncivilized actions“ and so on and so forth. I have said it many times, and I will say it again. When it comes to the Issue of Genocide, there is no concrete proof of this fact! So we can discuss it until the end of time but both sides of the coin need to do so with out going to the level of an “ameba” and talking like one. Michael brought up an interesting comment; you may disagree or agree to it, but please use your brain and logic to tackle the issue instead of your emotions and one cell membrane. It is a fact that once Turkey accepts the Armenian Genocide, there will be more demands such as Money and Land by the Armenians. Turks need to defend themselves in every way they can. That is a simple fact and all Michael did was bring this obvious fact to life….!

30
Lucrèce
June 10, 2008
According to Mr. Manoyan the Treaty of Sevres could serve as a legal basis. He further continued:“The necessity to review the borders emerged when Armenia obtained independence. Soviet Armenia could not insist on revision while formation of independent Armenia, the assignee of the First Republic, put into force the Treaty of Sevres, the only document that can determine the border".

That’s obviously ridiculous. This treaty was never ratified by Turkey, or another state, unlike the treaties of Gümrü (December 1920), Kars (October 1921) and Lausanne (July 1923).

The Helsinki Accords (August 1975) guarantee the inviolability of borders in Europe, including Caucasus.

31
JanJan
June 10, 2008
“The Helsinki Accords (August 1975) guarantee the inviolability of borders in Europe, including Caucasus.”

That worked out so well in Kosovo, didn’t it?

32
Lucrèce
June 10, 2008
The independence of Kosovo is an application of self-determination’s principle, and even this case is very problematic. There is almost no Armenians in eastern Anatolia. The principle of self-determination is inoperative for the Armenian dreams of Great Armenia.
And why don’t you comment the non-ratification of the Sèvres’s treatie? Or the treaties of Gümrü, Kars, and Lausanne? This treaties constitute the international law, wether you like or not.

33
Lucrèce
June 10, 2008
Sèvres’s treaty: sorry for this typing error.

34
Michael
June 10, 2008
1.) you cant take what everyone says seriously. just because an armenian said they should use the treaty of sevres doesnt mean that all armenians feel that way. I believe what Armenias ex-foreign minister said, before resigning. He said that Armenia will stick to the borders drawn during the Treaty of Kars. I care more about what this guy said than Mr. Manoyan.
2.) Greater Armenia is what the old kingdom of Armenia used to be. We dont want that now. Armenia doesnt want land from Iran or Turkey. From Turkey we want reparations like Germany paid to the Jews. The only dispute over land is with Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan was given Karabakh and Nakichevan by Stalin. Needing to placate Turkey, the Soviet Union agreed to a division under which Zangezur would fall under the control of Armenia, while Karabakh and Nakhchivan would be under the control of Azerbaijan. After the Soviet Union collapsed both countries went to war over that land and Armenia won.
3.) When you were talking about Armenia committing massacres against the Azeris why didnt you talk about the massacres committed by the azeris against the Armenians? Both countries were trying to ethnically cleanse there lands. Everything Armenia did was retaliation for a previous massacre committed by the azeris.
4.)www.armenialiberty.org/armeniareport/report/en/2008/05/2C8C5063-DA19-494C-B3C3-7CAB1865D2A2.asp
5.) Why dont you talk about Greater Azerbaijan? Isnt Azerbaijan the country that basically claims Armenians never existed and that the land we are on now belongs to them and they want it back? Isnt Azerbaijan the country that is trying to annex northern Iran and have it join Azerbaijan? Isnt Azerbaijan the country that has a dispute with Georgia over Zaqatala? So please tell me isnt Azerbaijan trying to create a Greater Azerbaijan.


35
Leo Aryatsi
June 10, 2008
misha your a joke even your threat to fight Armenians is a joke I have seen your physical and mental shortcomings you are a joke not made for serious conversation or battle you give your nation a bad name Dutchman


36
Lucrèce
June 10, 2008
just because an armenian said they should use the treaty of sevres doesnt mean that all armenians feel that way.

Mr. van der Galien has never said that. He has noted that the majority of nationalist Armenians claim the boudaries of the Sèvres’s treaty, and even more, for some of this.

Greater Armenia is what the old kingdom of Armenia used to be.
The were never a kingdom named Armenia in history, only Armenian kingdoms.

From Turkey we want reparations like Germany paid to the Jews.
You, perhaps, but not the dashnaks, the hunchaks, the former members of ASALA (such Mr. Ara Toranian, president of the Comité de coordination des associations arméniennes de France between 2003 and 2007) and the Kotcharian-Sarkissian clique. Anyway, these financial claims are inadmissible, they are excluded by the Treaty of Gümrü (December 1920).

When you were talking about Armenia committing massacres against the Azeris why didnt you talk about the massacres committed by the azeris against the Armenians? Both countries were trying to ethnically cleanse there lands. Everything Armenia did was retaliation for a previous massacre committed by the azeris.

The Azeris were the great majority in the disputed lands, and they never practiced ethnic cleansing.. The few massacres of Armenians by Azeris (totally unacceptables and condemnables) were acts of revenge, individuals, without planification, unlike the campaign of ethnic cleansing by Armenian nationalists, whose origins date back to the nineteenth century. Indeed, the province of Erivan, the present-day Republic of Armenia, was 80% Muslim before 1828, i. e. the Russian conquest (www.turkishweekly.net/articles.php?id=113).

Why dont you talk about Greater Azerbaijan? Isnt Azerbaijan the country that basically claims Armenians never existed and that the land we are on now belongs to them and they want it back? Isnt Azerbaijan the country that is trying to annex northern Iran and have it join Azerbaijan? Isnt Azerbaijan the country that has a dispute with Georgia over Zaqatala?

What is it that this tales? Azerbaidjan claim only the lands invaded by Armenian army in 1991-1994, and nothing else.

37
Leo Aryatsi
June 10, 2008
thus I give you a joke of a nickname….misha

38
nevber
June 10, 2008
Leo Aryatsi, I did not understand a word you said, not for it’s really bad English (which is very obvious) but for it’s contents. Please stick to the issue at hand. Read my comment # 29.


39
JanJan
June 10, 2008
“The Azeris were the great majority in the disputed lands, and they never practiced ethnic cleansing..”

Does this mean you recognize Karabakh as being ‘undisputed territory’? The land of dispute was NKAO itself and not the territories surrounding it and there is no question that Armenians were the vast majority there. Also to say Azeris never practiced ethnic cleansing is a horrible joke seeing as it was Azeri ethnic cleansing in Baku, Sumgayit, and the Shahumian region (northern NK) which escalated this conflict into total war. It is clear that you say whatever you want and whatever you want as a way of making your own truths even if they are detached from reality so I don’t see the point in going further into this issue. You’re never going to convince every ‘internet person’ of everything so why bother? You’re going to respond by saying Sumgayit never happened or that Armenians were a minority in Karabakh and we’ll continue to get nowhere.


40
Lucrèce
June 10, 2008
www.today.az/news/politics/25410.html

Recently the representatives of Mountain Jews community appealed to our Institute and told us about tragic events which took place during 1918-1919 in Guba city. According to them during those years there were mass killings of Mountain Jews committed by Armenian bandits. Semen Ikhiilov, Head of Mountain Jews’ community, writes to the Human Rights Institute of the National Academy of Scince: "In 1980s I discovered uknown facts regarding to mass killings of Jews during the period of Azerbaijanis’ genocide in 1918-1919. According to the witnesses and some documents, together with Azerbaijanis more than 3000 Jews were killed. For the moment we identified 87 names. Each year on March 31st, on the day of Azerbaijanis’ genocide of 1918-1919, special requiem prayers for 87 killed Jewish children, women and men are being read in the synagogues. We continue the researches of other places of mass burial in the regions of our Motherland, Azerbaijan. This letter is accompanied with the list of victims, who were killed by monsters on 19th Iyar, 5679, in Guba city," the letter says.Moreover, you can find in archives facts that during those times the Jewish problem was presented as the Tat problem, without a national identity. That’s why it was a problem of genocide committed by Armenians against the Tat ethnic group of Azerbaijan.After we received the message from Jewish community the experts group was created for working with archives. We discovered this mass killings were committed by group headed by Amazasp under Stepan Shaumian’s command.All the materials were collected by scintillas. But even though the information content is not so wide we can still receive faithful image of murderous deeds committed by Armenians against Mountain Jews, Lezghins, Azerbaijanis during those years in Guba.

The word genocide is unappropriate, for both Moutain Jews and Azeris, but the facts are corrects. Only the Cossaks of White Armies, during the Russian civil war (1917-1920) have killed more Jews than the Dashnaks, between 1648 and 1939.


41
Lucrèce
June 10, 2008
Does this mean you recognize Karabakh as being ‘undisputed territory’?
Not at all, the Azeris were the majority in this land also, before the campaigns of ethnic cleansing, during the XXth century, and especially during the WWI.

Also to say Azeris never practiced ethnic cleansing is a horrible joke seeing as it was Azeri ethnic cleansing in Baku, Sumgayit, and the Shahumian region (northern NK) which escalated this conflict into total war.
The number of Armenian victims, in this cities, during the years 1988-1992, is is far too weak to use the notion of ethnic cleansing. They were acts of revenge, after Armenian crimes (expulsions since 1987, assassinations…).

www.turkishweekly.net/comments.php?id=2018

It is clear that you say whatever you want and whatever you want as a way of making your own truths even if they are detached from reality so I don’t see the point in going further into this issue.
You’ve no argument for demonstrate this.

And why would I do that? I am not a Turkish neither an Azerbaijani. I abhor all kinds of nationalism, including the Turkish and the Azeri nationalisms.


42
Artaç
June 10, 2008
Ermenistan into sand!!!!

43
Michael
June 10, 2008
1.) The kingdom of Armenia was called Greater Armenia because that was the biggest Armenia ever stretched. From sea to sea.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Armenia
2.) Sumgait pogrom, Maraghar massacres, september days, kirovabad pogrom. azeris were trying to get rid of armenians in azerbaijan and armenians were trying to get rid of azeris from armenia.

3.) Talking about genocide what about cultural genocide? Julfa cemetary. Youve probably heard of what happened in Julfa when azeri soldiers began destroying an Armenian cemetary that had been there since 1915. Photos were taken from the Iranian border.
www.armenica.org/history/old-jougha/index.html
When Armenia told them to stop they claimed Armenians have ever lived on that territory.

Having another country claim you never existed is another form of cultural genocide. Aliyev sent a letter to the EU telling them he wanted Yerevan back. What president claims another countries capital? Turks tried the same things a few years ago claiming Armenians never existed in that area. When Armenians confronted them telling them to show there evidence they shut up and back out. Azeris have committed more massacres against the Armenians than the Armenians against the azeri.

I have come to the conclusion that azeris hate Armenians more than Armenians hate azeris.

44
Michael van der Galien, Editor-in-Chief
June 10, 2008
LOL Hans, drunk again?


45
Leo Aryatsi
June 11, 2008
I read this article to laugh not to give you a grammar lesson turk.A murderer doesn’t have to admitt his crime to make him guilty. Same goes for the turk. Why do you think they hire misha and pitiful people like him to help with their lies.


46
Leo Aryatsi
June 11, 2008
As for the other mongrel threatening to get the rest of Armenia, first lets see what you can do with the Kurds then try to take on the Armenians lol. This time you cannot just commit genocide again because there’s no world war to blind the world’s eyes. Your turkey is coming to an end. The zionist spit and American gum that hold your country together is drying up. We can wait as long as needed for you to fall apart satana turk.


47
nevber
June 11, 2008
Leo Aryatsi, you are a pitiful little creature. People like you are a mistake of the universe. Take your vile racist one cell membrane brain and put it where it can exist with more comfortable surroundings. All they teach you in the Armenian churches, community centers, schools and homes is hate, revenge and inhumanity. You and your community needs serious therapy. What a horrible way to live. I am sorry for your bird like mind. And also, the person who calls himself Arac. I am sorry but you are exactly the same as this leo person! When will you small minded people get it!!! This kind of talk gets you no where. The only person you piss of is yourselves…. Have a good night!

48
nevber
June 11, 2008
Leo, by the way! I am a therapist. I wouldn’t mind directing you to a good therapist in your neighborhood. You don’t need to thank me! I am a kind hearted, good Turk :) Ohhh before I forget, Artac can join you and you can even talk about how much you hate each other during your sessions. A good catharsis would be good for both of you…

49
Leo Aryatsi
June 11, 2008
lool

50
Armenia » Armenia - Armeniapedia.org
June 11, 2008
[…] Reclaim Western ArmeniaAh, I always find it entertaining when extremists (and racists at that) make clear what their real goals are. The Armenian propagandists are constantly trying to convince the world that it’s not about money or lands, no, … […]

51
Hans
June 11, 2008
Edited by MvdG: you’re banned.

52
aylin ata
June 11, 2008
Armenia’s attitude towards Turkey’s land integrity: Article 11 of the Armenian Declaration of Independence of August 23, 1990; refers to Eastern Anatolia of Turkey as Western Armenia and as such beholds that this area is part of Armenia. Since the Armenian constitution recognizes as a basis “the fundamental principles of the Armenian statehood and national aspirations engraved in the Declaration of Independence of Armenia”, it likewise accepts the characterization of Eastern Anatolia as Western Armenia and this, albeit indirectly, translates into the advancement of territorial claims. The Armenian politicians and school books call Eastern Anatolia of Turkey, ‘invaded mother land of Armenia’ and in Armenia the school children are being grown up being conditioned to be patriots to rescue their invaded land. Even the marches they sing are about this condition. The Armenians who write in such blogs that the Eastern Anatolia cities do not belong to Turkey, as if the present Eastern boundaries of Turkey was not determined by treaties of Gumru (1920), Moscow (1921) and the whole boundaries by Lausanne (1923) Treaties; after the Turkish Freedom War.

Additionally Armenia refused Turkey’s recurrent offers to commit an agreement declaring that each country recognizes the other country’s land integrity, in 1992 and later. Why do the Armenians force Turkey to accept a genocide? The answer is hidden in a speech of the chief of Dashnak Party Hrant Markaryan who told that their efforts for the recognition of Armenian (so-called) genocide was not an isolated purpose but it was a part of the struggle for rescue of the West Armenia (Armenian Forum Vol2 No 4; Armenian Weekly On-line, 18 June, 4 July 2003). The Armenian then prime minister Andranik Markaryan told that the internationally recognition of (so called) Armenian genocide and demanding land from Ankara as ‘compensation’ was possible only after Armenia had strengthened and the Armenians should not have told that they demanded land from Ankara loudly and everywhere (Arminfo 26 May 2004). On one occasion President Kocharian stated that since today’s Armenia does not have the clout to advance such demands, doing so should be left to future generations at a time when conditions would hopefully be better suited to this end’. A poll taken in Armenia revealed that almost all youngsters in the Republic of Armenia wished to follow up with land claims from Turkey and 90% of them said Turkey must unequivocally accept genocide allegations. (Milliyet - April 11, 2006)The world should not forget that Germany’s claim on Zudetland and Gdansk just because they were its historical lands caused burst of World War II! History is full of wars which broke up because of claims of states on their historical lands. If an item like the aforementioned Armenian item were present in the lawbook of Mexico claiming that Texas, Arizonna, New Mexico and California which were historical lands of Mexico, belonged to Mexico but invaded, would the American tolerate it? Therefore the world should not overlook Armenia’s aggressivity, which is hidden behind their role of victim and should think about the price of their support to the Armenians very well.

53
Scarlet
June 12, 2008
If Armenians have convinced the majority of the world population that genocide against their ancestors have been committed..why is it so important for them to pressure Turkey to accept these accusations? Does Armenia or the Diaspora Armenians really ‘care’ about what Turkey thinks and say on this matter? The answer is No. So the only reason is, once the Turkish Government ‘admits’ to a genocide, the Armenians can start drawing out their plans to annex Eastern Turkey to Armenia. This has been the Dashnaks purpose for the past 90 years, and the genocide campaign is their multi billion dollar business to achieve this unrealistic dream. Although they have convinced their own people as well as most countries that there was this horrendous ‘ethnic cleansing’ committed against their people, the truth will somehow prevail and the deceitful plan of genocide of the Armenians will go down in history as one of the greatest historical lies ever documented. And this is what Armenians everywhere will be recognized for. At the end,Turkey will be the one demanding reperations for the slandering of Ottoman History and for racial discrimination against people of Turkish origin, whom are being attacked and abused everywhere by some hateful Armenians. The truth is inevitable and will surface no matter how many countries illegally have passed Resolutions against Turkey.

54
JanJan
June 12, 2008
Scarlet, the entire Armenian history located within Turkey lies in ruins or has been completely destroyed. Everything an entire generation of Armenians owned, where they lived, their lives were wiped out. The few remaining signs that Armenians were ever there are in total ruins and used as mosques, barns, or silos.

Even the one restoration effort, Akhtamar church, is described as a "Byzantine castle" on the sign at the site, aka Armenians never existed here and if they did it was their own fault they all died and no longer do.

Anyone who would like this to continue and doom the last vestiges of Armenian civilization in Turkey to obscurity and destruction then they should follow your advise and be content with Turkey’s stance today. If you can see why they might feel otherwise though then you might be able to understand the continued pressure on Turkey.

If you don’t believe me see for yourself on this great website:
www.virtualani.org/ - English
www.virtualani.org/citymap-turkish.htm - Turkish


55
Lucrèce
June 12, 2008
Scarlet, the entire Armenian history located within Turkey lies in ruins or has been completely destroyed.That’s false. There are around 70,000 Turkish Armenians in Istanbul, and around 60,000 Armenian citizens who life in Turkey. Fortunately, this Armenians are much more open and tolerant than the dashnaks or the hunchakists: www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=90022 The few remaining signs that Armenians were ever there are in total ruins and used as mosques, barns, or silos.That’s right only for a part of these monuments.Before the Russian conquest, the territory of actual Armenian Republic was 80% Muslim. How many mosques remain in Armenia? How many Muslim cemeteries remain in this country? And in the part of Azerbaijan invaded and destroyed by Armenian army during the years 1991-1994?The destruction of cultural and religious monuments is unfortunately commonplace from Zagreb to Baku, and from Poland to Near East.
www.meforum.org/article/1108McCarthy has unearthed a horrifying and extremely important fact: that in the course of the century between the Greek war of independence and World War I, the Ottoman Empire suffered five and a half million dead and five million refugees. He deems this Europe’s largest lost of life and emigration since the Thirty Years’ War. Christian suffering in this time and place is well-known; McCarthy shows the other side, that "Muslim communities in an area as large as all of Western Europe had been diminished or destroyed." His study minutely reviews the regions and wars, pulling information from foreign and Ottoman sources to produce a compelling account.The Armenian claims to be the greatest victims are grotesque and shocking. Even the one restoration effort, Akhtamar church, is described as a "Byzantine castle" on the sign at the site, aka Armenians never existed here and if they did it was their own fault they all died and no longer do.That’s ridiculous. The Armenian origin of this church is not denied. The Armenian diaspora was even invited by the Turkish authorities, but she refused, with her superb and legendary arrogance. I was in the public of an Armenian meeting during the last year, and I have seen the fanatical hate, the extraordinary contempt for the Turks, all the Turks, when this question was addressed.

56
Lucrèce
June 12, 2008
Scarlet, the entire Armenian history located within Turkey lies in ruins or has been completely destroyed.
That’s false. There are around 70,000 Turkish Armenians in Istanbul, and around 60,000 Armenian citizens who life in Turkey. Fortunately, this Armenians are much more open and tolerant than the dashnaks or the hunchakists:

www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=90022

The few remaining signs that Armenians were ever there are in total ruins and used as mosques, barns, or silos.
That’s right only for a part of these monuments.Before the Russian conquest, the territory of actual Armenian Republic was 80% Muslim. How many mosques remain in Armenia? How many Muslim cemeteries remain in this country? And in the part of Azerbaijan invaded and destroyed by Armenian army during the years 1991-1994?The destruction of cultural and religious monuments is unfortunately commonplace from Zagreb to Baku, and from Poland to Near East.

www.meforum.org/article/1108

McCarthy has unearthed a horrifying and extremely important fact: that in the course of the century between the Greek war of independence and World War I, the Ottoman Empire suffered five and a half million dead and five million refugees. He deems this Europe’s largest lost of life and emigration since the Thirty Years’ War. Christian suffering in this time and place is well-known; McCarthy shows the other side, that "Muslim communities in an area as large as all of Western Europe had been diminished or destroyed." His study minutely reviews the regions and wars, pulling information from foreign and Ottoman sources to produce a compelling account.

The Armenian claims to be the greatest victims are grotesque and shocking.

Even the one restoration effort, Akhtamar church, is described as a "Byzantine castle" on the sign at the site, aka Armenians never existed here and if they did it was their own fault they all died and no longer do.

That’s ridiculous. The Armenian origin of this church is not denied. The Armenian diaspora was even invited by the Turkish authorities, but she refused, with her superb and legendary arrogance. I was in the public of an Armenian meeting during the last year, and I have seen the fanatical hate, the extraordinary contempt for the Turks, all the Turks, when this question was addressed.

57
Lucrèce
June 12, 2008
www.ataa.org/reference/devastation_az.html

JanJan, a comment, perhaps?

58
JanJan
June 13, 2008
Lucrece your reliance on links from ATAA.org has reached beyond absurd proportions. There’s also an alleged non-partisan non-Turk commenter on here who says they understand both sides and agrees completely with the Turks, yet all their proof backing up why is similarly from the ATAA site. Perhaps you are the same, who knows, but until you accept propaganda from a Dashnak site don’t throw that ATAA "fact pages" at me. At least the mosques of Shushi and Aghdam still stand.. meanwhile VirtualAni is a non-partisan site being that it’s not made by Armenians and is utterly covered in photographic proof. They also have an interesting section about the Julfa cemetery, or should I say former Julfa Cemetery thanks to the Aliyevs and Azerbaijan as proof of the fate of just one of numerous Armenian monuments that used to be on the territory of Azerbaijan.

Ironically they deny that those sites were Armenian by calling them "Albanian" in origin, but then destroy them anyway, as if to contradict their own assertion.

59
Michael
June 13, 2008
JanJan is right. they claim that Armenians never lived on Azeri soil. The churches and cemetaries are Albanian and azeris claim they are of Albanian descent. But here is the question: If those are albanian cemetaries and churches why were you destroying the monuments of your ancestors?
www.accc.org.uk/Book%20review%206%20R%20Galichian.pdf
read this review. it is about a book written by an azeri claiming armenians never existed, all the churches, cemetaries, were albanian, all famous armenians like Mesrop Mashtotz, founder of the Armenian alphabet, David Bek, a famous political leader, were actually azeri.


Source: PoliGazette