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A document in Russia's official archives has surfaced that shows Armenians carried out mass killings in 1915, and is one of the strongest pieces of evidence that reveals Yerevan's claims of "genocide" are nothing but a lie. (UPDATED)
Turkish academic, Mehmet Perincek, has uncovered a 65-page report while conducting research at the Russian State Military History Archives, Hurriyet daily reported on Monday. The report was written by Brigadier General Leonid Bolkhovinitov and sent to the Russian headquarters in Dec. 11, 1915.
"Armenian voluntary units had started violent slaughters against the Muslim people with racist motives," the report was quoted as saying by Hurriyet.
The Russian general also said in his report the information given by the Armenians "are politically-motivated" and did not reflect the actual situation in the region. He also named the incidents as, "The issue defined as the Armenian question."
"We shall not believe in the death tolls that the Armenians give. The number of missing people has been exaggerated in the memos distributed by the Dashnak party and there is no doubt that they are politically-motivated. Those Armenian gangs, who triggered the slaughters, are the ones who should be blamed for those missing," Bolkhovinitov said in his report.
He also accused England of provoking the Armenians to prevent a potential alliance between the Ottoman Empire and Russia. "Before that Turks, Armenians, and Kurds used to live in peace. Even the living conditions of Armenians were much better than Kurds' and Turks," he added.
This report is likely to create a new perspective on the Armenian claims, given the fact that Russia and the Ottomans were enemies during the late 1910s, increasing the importance of the report.
Turkey says parliaments and other political institutions are not the appropriate bodies to debate and pass judgment on disputed periods of history. Past events and controversial periods of history should be left to historians for their dispassionate study and evaluation.
However Turkey's efforts to carry a deeper investigation have yet to have a positive outcome. In 2005, Turkey officially proposed to the Armenian government the establishment of a joint historical commission composed of historians and other experts from both sides to study together the events of 1915 and to open the archives of Turkey and Armenia, as well as the archives of all relevant third-party countries and share their findings publicly. Unfortunately, Armenia has not yet responded positively to this initiative and Turkey's proposal remains on the table.
Text: Hurriyet
Images: Mehmet Perincek
Russian Archives Refute Armenian Claims by Michael van der Galien
A Turkish scientist who did research in the official Russian archives, has found a document that clearly disputes just about everything Armenian activists said during World War I and now, about their own conduct and that of the Turks / Ottomans. Before looking at the document, and quoting it, it has to be pointed out that those of us who are actually honest don’t take these things at face value alone; the document has to be authenticated. However, it’s reasonably save to publish it here since the chance that it is not authentic is not that big.
Of course, everything is possible, if it is not authentic, you will see me publish a post retracting this one at a later date. I am, however, confident that it will not be necessary to do so.
All the more so because the document does not give us much new information; it only confirms what we already know. Armenian activists have tried to deny it for years, but it should be clear for everyone who has studied this subject in some detail, that the Turks are not the ones lying about the conduct of tens of thousands of Armenians before, during and after World War I.
OK, here is what the document, partially, says:
Firstly, it was written by Brigadier General Leonid Bolkhovinitov and sent to the Russian headquarters in Dec. 11, 1915. The Turkish scientist found the document at the Russian State Military History Archives.
He wrote: “Armenian voluntary units had started violent slaughters against the Muslim people with racist motives.” The Russian Brigadier General added that the information given by the Armenians “are politically-motivated” and did not reflect the actual situation in the region. He also named the incidents as, “The issue defined as the Armenian question.”
“We shall not believe in the death tolls that the Armenians give. The number of missing people has been exaggerated in the memos distributed by the Dashnak party and there is no doubt that they are politically-motivated. Those Armenian gangs, who triggered the slaughters, are the ones who should be blamed for those missing,” Bolkhovinitov wrote in his report.
Furthermore, he argued, Britain was responsible for must of the hostilities between Russia and the Ottoman Empire. Without British interference, the report said, the two may have formed an alliance. However, the British - the report says - provoked the Armenians to attack Turkish Muslims, which made the situation untenable. He then added: “Before that Turks, Armenians, and Kurds used to live in peace. Even the living conditions of Armenians were much better than Kurds’ and Turks.”
Before people start commenting on that line; this too is nothing but a confirmation of what we already knew. Armenians were doing and living well in the Ottoman Empire. Far more Muslims than non-Muslims lived in poverty. Armenians were basically an upper class of the Ottoman population. They were government officials, businessmen, and so on.
Thanks to readers Jason (not the co-blogger), Meltem and some others for e-mailing me the article.
Comments »
1
John
June 16, 2008
We’ll have to wait for the authentication of this document, which has a high chance, as you state, of being authentic. However, there is something curious about the content as presented. This document blames the British for ruining a possible alliance between the Russians and the Turks, an odd lamentation coming from a Brigadier General who’s country is at war with an enemy called the Ottoman Empire, wouldn’t you agree?
There is another odd "regret" expressed by this general that until these latest British-provoked Armenian attacks , everybody (Turks, Kurds, Armenians) were living together peacefully. It is curious that this gentleman was not aware of the Armenian massacres of 1895-96 in Constantinople, and the Adana massacres of 1909, and quite oblivious about the Armenians in Anatolia who had a slave-master relationship with the armed-to-the-teeth Kurdish tribes.
And as if to bestow Turkish benevolence of "letting" Armenians prosper, he concludes "Armenians were better off then all of them".
Well, Michael although you agree with this general’s comments about Armenians being better off, meaning: Armenians could not have been persecuted, is a hogwash and you know it. Armenians were better off (only in the big cities I might add) because of the level of education in comparison to the Turks or the Kurds, and better education brings better opportunities, therefore more possibilities of success and prosperity. Which, at the end of the Ottoman Empire, was a great source of jealousy that led to xenophobia and intolerance thanks to racist-nationalist writings of Zia Gökalp.
I am sure you don’t need me to give other examples of such educated prosperous minorities in Europe that were persecuted and subjected to pogroms, in spite of them being "well off".
Well, I guess now, due to this document, the Turks have to revise their accusations of Russians being the ones who provoked the Armenians to attack the Turks, it was the British all along.
An American legislator right after the war was confused and perturbed about all these accusations against the Turks, in a solidly authenticated document this gentleman calls for gratitude, instead, for Turks having moved an entire people from a harsh Anatolian climate to more temperate and tropical lands that "would stir the envy of every American", This must proves the ingratitude of the Armenians.
2
nevber
June 16, 2008
Michael, I don’t know if you heard but a few days ago the Swedish Parliament rejected the resolution that characterizes the events of 1915 as Genocide. The reasons they gave for this was as follows : 1- the United Nations has never accepted the Armenian case as genocide 2- The United Nations Genocide Convention does not apply retroactively to events before 1948 3- There is substantial disagreement between experts regarding the events of 1915 4- There is concern by experts about broadening the definition of genocide and overlapping with other crimes; and, 5- A legislature should not intervene in foreign affairs and disturb the Turkish domestic process.
3
Kemal
June 16, 2008
If you knew the history of the Treaty of Berlin, about Britain’s interference in the agreement ending hostilities between the Ottoman Empire and Russia in 1878, the Russian gains that Britain forced them to give back, Britain’s reason for doing so, the false promises made by the British, the manner in which the Brits encouraged Armenian revolutionaries, you would not find the "regrets" expressed in the document at all odd.
But, ignorance or avoidance of facts that don’t promote Armenian genocide claims is nothing new.
Other interesting items in the report are admissions that the Russians could not control the Armenian militias and that the Russians feared the Armenians, once finished in Anatolia with Ottoman civilians, would turn their bayonets on the Russians.
And, John, nothing has to be revised with respect to Russia’s responsibility for what happened. The Russians armed the Armenians and this Russian archival document admits that, that the Russians could not control the Armenians they had armed and that the Armenian militias were so out of control that even the Russians feared them.
4
P. Connolly
June 16, 2008
Response to Post #1 by John above:
"However, there is something curious about the content as presented. This document blames the British for ruining a possible alliance between the Russians and the Turks, an odd lamentation coming from a Brigadier General who’s country is at war with an enemy called the Ottoman Empire, wouldn’t you agree?"
No not odd at all; it is an error to infer that the Russians were the faithful friends of the Armenians simply because they were fighting on the same side in the war; rather they were reluctant bedfellows. Russia was the hereditary enemy of the Turks but they also viewed the Armenians with a healthy amount of distrust. The Armenians knew this; they only allied themselves with the Russians because - of the two - they felt an alliance with the Russians was a better bet and they felt so confident in support from the "Great Powers" that they recklessly disregarded the dangers of treason. As Katchaznouoni (first prime minister of Armenia) would write shortly after the events "we were ignorant of the true strength of the Turks and too sure of our own strength.". Regarding the Russian distrust of Armenians, see Pastermajian’s "Why Armenia Should be Free" (pub. 1918) pages 28-35 section entitled "Attitude of Russian Czarism". Everything this Brigadier General says reflects faithfully the statement of the situation as stated by Contemporary Armenian Leaders of the time; specifically Papazian, Katchazanouni, and Pasdermadjian shortly after the catastrophe. In their words: "The Russians wanted an Armenia without the Armenians." ("Armenia" here referring to Western Anatolia).
"There is another odd "regret" expressed by this general that until these latest British-provoked Armenian attacks , everybody (Turks, Kurds, Armenians) were living together peacefully. It is curious that this gentleman was not aware of the Armenian massacres of 1895-96 in Constantinople, and the Adana massacres of 1909, and quite oblivious about the Armenians in Anatolia who had a slave-master relationship with the armed-to-the-teeth Kurdish tribes."
No, not correct. The well-documented influence and meddling of the western powers goes back far earlier than 1895-6
" And as if to bestow Turkish benevolence of ‘letting’ Armenians prosper, he concludes ‘Armenians were better off then all of them’. Well, Michael although you agree with this general’s comments about Armenians being better off, meaning: Armenians could not have been persecuted, is a hogwash and you know it. Armenians were better off (only in the big cities I might add) because of the level of education in comparison to the Turks or the Kurds, and better education brings better opportunities, therefore more possibilities of success and prosperity."
It is well established that -at least in Turkey- the implementation of the Moslem law requiring military service of Moslems and a tax from non-Moslems instead of military service had the long-term effect of comparatively impoverishing the Moslems whose men would be gone for long periods of time, thus depriving the family of a breadwinner. The Armenians are known to have benefitted in the long run from this system. And in the decades leading up to the events in question this was particularly acute due to the Balkan wars.
"Well, I guess now, due to this document, the Turks have to revise their accusations of Russians being the ones who provoked the Armenians to attack the Turks, it was the British all along."
No wrong again. Those of us familiar with this whole episode never sought to exhonerate the Western powers completely and lay all the blame on the Russians. But the above-mentioned Armenian Leaders who were there on the scene and documented what they witnessed shortly after these very events, themselves deeply regretted the terrible decision to bluntly tell the Turkish government -their own government- that they were going to enter the war on the side of the enemy. They couldn’t have picked a worse time to do such a thing and they themselves confessed and acknowledged as much in writing.
5
pacific_waters
June 17, 2008
I’ll be sure to tell my greek friends whose grandparents lost everything when they fled Armenia that they really didn’t have to.
6
Armen
June 17, 2008
I’m confused: there are dozens of reports by Russian, German, and Austro-Hungarian military officers and troops saying that the areas where the deportations were taking place were quite and undisturbed. How is it that the report of this one Russian general (whose work does indeed require verification) is being embraced with such enthusiasm and the reports of the aforementioned individuals are always waived as wartime propaganda or just labeled unreliable?
7
ESHES
June 17, 2008
Armen, just like Admiral Bristol who came and asked the
Turks what happened to the Armenians, The Turks today don’t understand their is hearsay and eyewitness accounts.
Also Armenians never said that the did not have militias fighting Turks, just like the Sudanese liberation Army, there were Armenians fighting for equal rights aka DEMOCRACY, but that is no excuse to attempt to commit GENOCIDE!
8
Lucrèce
June 17, 2008
This report corroborate other Russian documents, translated into Turkish and into French since the 1910’s:
louisville.edu/a-s/history/turks/turcs_et_armeniens.pdf
louisville.edu/a-s/history/turks/atrocites_commises_par_les_armeniens.pdf
9
Lucrèce
June 17, 2008
English version of the reports written by the Russian General Mayewski, consul in Van and Erzurum before the WWI:
louisville.edu/a-s/history/turks/Mayewsky.pdf
10
Cilicia
June 17, 2008
When the gates of hope are opened
And winter takes our homeland,
When our beauteous land of Armenia
Beams its euphoric, delightful days;
When the swallow returns to its nest;
When the trees are clothed in leaves,
I yearn to see my Cilicia,
World that deluged me in eternal sun.
11
John
June 17, 2008
P. Connolly,
It is interesting that you see nothing out of the ordinary in this new-found document , and reject every comment I make. Please allow me to reject your rejections.
You fail to demonstrate how " Everything this Brigadier General says reflects faithfully the statement of the situation as stated by Contemporary Armenian Leaders of the time; specifically Papazian, Katchazanouni, and Pasdermadjian shortly after the catastrophe. In their words: "The Russians wanted an Armenia without the Armenians." ("Armenia" here referring to Western Anatolia)."
Papazian, Katchaznouni and Pastermadjian never claimed to have "slaughtered" Turks, never claimed that they were exaggerating the numbers of the "missing" (notice this General uses the word "slaughtered" for Turks and "missing" for Armenians). So the words of this General does not necessarily correspond to the truth, it is a mere expression of an opinion. Russia was an imperialist State, and as such no one was under any illusions what the Russians wanted and aspired for. 1905 Russian confiscations of Armenian church and national properties in Caucasian Armenia proved where Russia stands in its "alliance" with the Armenians. They were conquerors and behaved as such. So Russians wanting "Armenia without Armenians" only proves that a certain Brig. General’s anti-Armenian views should be taken in accordance to this reality.
Also you misquote Katchaznouni, he didn’t say "we were ignorant of the true strength of the Turks and too sure of our own strength." No, he said: "We overestimated the ability of the Armenian people, its political and military power, and overestimated the extent and importance of the services our people rendered to the Russians. And by overestimating our very modest worth and merit we were naturally exaggerating our hopes and expectations."
P. Connolly, They were not ignorant of strength of the Turks, they had seen what the Turkish armies could do to the Armenian defenseless or very poorly armed populations over the prior twenty years, Katchaznouni is talking about overestimating the ability to defend his people from such Turkish attacks.
You seem to think defending oneself is not a legitimate right, especially with a history that proves the legitimacy of such a right. Let me elaborate; You say "The well-documented influence and meddling of the western powers goes back far earlier than 1895-6" This statement only validates my point that this General is wrong in saying It was due to the actions of the Armenians that the Turks reacted. As far back as 1870’s the Ottoman Empire was giving every reason for outside meddling because every grievance Armenians put forward was met by butcheries of the Sultan’s armies. To this end Fromkin correctly states "nothing in history of the Ottoman rule predisposed them (Armenians) to remain loyal to Constantinople. The Turksih massacres of Armenians in 1894, 1895, 1896 and 1909 were still fresh in their minds." Even after such a bloody history of Turkish brutality against the general Armenian population, the Dashnak party did pledge loyalty to the Porte in the event of Turkey entering the War, this is quite an established fact. But what does Enver do? again Fromkin: "Then, too, Enver had sent their (Armenians’) blood enemies, the Kurds, into Armenia in Ottoman military units, rekindling ancient feuds and giving rise to new ones".
I choose to quote Fromkin, because of the Turkish acceptance of him to be on their side, even so, the reality cannot be avoided. Actually, Fromkin proves the Turks to be on a very shaky ground on this issue, even though he uses Sukru Elekdg, Stanford Shaw as his sources.
I see, quite often, Turks throw quotations from Armenian ex-leaders, in small "sound-bites", taken completely out of context in the hopes of "proving" Armenian treachery. This is a very simplistic approach and it only gives credence to those who say that such practices are for simplistic propaganda purposes rather than any in-depth study of the issues at hand.
The logic of "nothing happens in a vacuum", if it applies to the Turks also applies to the Armenians.
12
P. Connolly
June 17, 2008
Response to "John" in post 11 above
"You fail to demonstrate how " Everything this Brigadier General says reflects faithfully the statement of the situation as stated by Contemporary Armenian Leaders of the time; …Papazian, Katchaznouni and Pastermadjian never claimed to have "slaughtered" Turks….So the words of this General does not necessarily correspond to the truth, it is a mere expression of an opinion. …General’s anti-Armenian views should be taken in accordance to this reality. …Also you misquote Katchaznouni, "
I’m afraid that John has got his facts wrong, wrong, and wrong again:
1. The quote from Katchaznouni is on the authority of Papazian himself on page 45 of "Patriotism Perverted". It’s not at all out of context; the context makes the meaning abundantly clear.
2. Regarding the depravity and barbarity of the the Armenian Revolutionaries, this is explained in detail on pages 13-18 of "Patriotism Perverted" in the section entitled "Terrorism in the early program".
3. Yes the words of the general were his opinion, he himself seems to be expressing it from that vantage point. But clearly, based on the affirmations of the Contemporary Armenian Leaders of the time, his assesment was justified and fully conformable to the facts.
"Katchaznouni is talking about overestimating the ability to defend his people from such Turkish attacks."
Katchaznouni makes it quite clear that a revolution was under way and that they thought they could succeed. "We were not afraid of war because we were sure of being victorious." (p45). Present-day lying Armenian Propagandists may try to twist the facts to make it look like an entirely defensive operation but it was not entirely defensive and they are liars!! The Testimony of the Contemporary Armenians Leaders themselves make this quite clear.
"You seem to think defending oneself is not a legitimate right. …As far back as 1870’s the Ottoman Empire was giving every reason for outside meddling because every grievance Armenians put forward was met by butcheries of the Sultan’s armies."
This ploy of revising historical facts to make the Armenian actions look like a defensive movement may work with all those ignorant legislators you people are constantly deceiving, and the IGNORANT educators that you people are constantly duping into working your "genocide" claims into the curriculums of unsuspecting children, but it doesn’t work here. Your own primary historical sources show what liars you are!! Furthermore, when we talk about Western powers meddling we’re talking about well before 1870, as previously mentioned.
13
Michael van der Galien, Editor-in-Chief
June 17, 2008
This ploy of revising historical facts to make the Armenian actions look like a defensive movement may work with all those ignorant legislators you people are constantly deceiving, and the IGNORANT educators that you people are constantly duping into working your "genocide" claims into the curriculums of unsuspecting children, but it doesn’t work here.
Quite well said.
14
Article 301 is dead, Long live Article 301
June 17, 2008
A Turkish publisher has been sentenced to five months in prison for publishing a book by a British author about the mass killing of Armenians in 1915. Ragip Zarakolu was found guilty of "insulting the institutions of the Turkish republic" under Article 301 of Turkey’s penal code. The controversial law was recently reformed under pressure from the EU to ensure freedom of speech in Turkey. This is the first high-profile verdict to be handed down since then. Mr Zarakolu’s sentence seems to confirm campaigners’ fears that changes to the law were merely cosmetic, says the BBC’s Sarah Rainsford in Istanbul. In April it became a crime to insult the Turkish nation, rather than Turkishness. But insulting the Turkish nation can still be punished by up to two years in jail. Sensitive issue Mr Zarakolu was brought to trial for publishing a book by British author George Jerjian on the mass killings of Armenians under the Ottoman Empire in 1915. Turkey denies the killings were genocide and the issue remains highly sensitive. Passing sentence, the judge told Mr Zarakolu he had insulted the Turkish republic and its founders. His own defence - that he had the right to criticise - was rejected. Mr Zarakolu’s case was not referred to the Turkish ministry of justice, as required under the reforms, and he has said he will appeal against the verdict, our correspondent reports. His sentence will not be imposed until that appeal process is complete. Outside the court, Mr Zarakolu said that such rulings had silenced many writers in Turkey but that he would continue to challenge the restrictions. "I was partly waiting for this result. But it is a struggle for the truth and it will go on. I do not accept myself as convicted. This is a conviction for official history and for denialism," he said. The justice ministry recently revealed that 1,700 people were tried under Article 301 in 2006 alone.
15
Lucrèce
June 17, 2008
1) What is the relationship between this case and the Russian report?
2) What’s your mind about this other case of violation of freedom of expression: www.yektan.org/ ? Hmm?
16
Kemal
June 17, 2008
This ploy of revising historical facts to make the Armenian actions look like a defensive movement…
… is a fiction, a farce, another falsification, distortion and lie.
Righto, so you argue the rebellion at Van that occurred BEFORE any relocation order issued and in which Armenians massacred tens of thousands of unarmed Ottoman civilians? …. please explain why it is defense if Armenian militants kill unarmed civilians.
Notably, after the Armenians were finished with their revolt in Van, only three buildings were left standing in the Muslim quarter of the town, Armenian militants carefully and deliberately razed to the ground every other structure to ensure the ethnic cleansing of the Muslim population stuck–if there was nothing for them to come back to, the hope was they’d stay away.
If not, explain why it was necessary for Armenian militants to defend themselves against the empty homes and structures that once belonged to civilians.
“Everything Islamic in Van was destroyed. With the exception of three antique buildings, all the mosques were burned or torn down. The entire Muslim quarter was destroyed. When the Armenian work and the battle between Ottomans and Armenians were finished, Van more resembled an ancient ruin than a city… When the Armenians attacked Muslims’ own villages or nearby villages, Muslims fled with whatever moveable property they could carry. On the road, Armenian bands first robbed them, then raped many of the women and killed many of the men. Usually, but not always, a number of women and young children were killed as well… After the Armenian retreat, much of eastern Anatolia was a graveyard.” (Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims: 1821-1922, p. 189, 202)
The Ottoman decision to deport the Armenians from the East came after these events.
My advice to you John and all the other one-note bugle genocide proponents is that you better learn to sing another tune.
The Russian archives are about to put an end to this "genocide" gig and show the events for what they were– a war declared by Armenian militants against the Ottoman Empire, which they lost.
17
Thought Crimes in Switzerland & France
June 17, 2008
Did you know that Armenians lobbied to make it a crime to question labeling the events of 1915 in southeastern Anatolia?
Did you know that Armenians filed FOUR lawsuits against the most preeminent expert in Ottoman history for stating during a magazine interview that he did not believe a genocide had occurred during WWI?
Did you know that Swizterland has convicted Dogu Perincek, Chair of the Labor Party in Turkey, of the CRIME of denying a genocide against Armenians occurred during WWI?
Did you know that Swiss prosecutors have indicted historian Norman Stone for writing an article in which he concluded no genocide against Armenians occurred during WWI?
There is one consistent element in Armenian genocide claims: HYPOCRISY, and one could add a second: deceit.
While Armenians scream, yell and dance about Article 301, Armenian genocide proponents praise and lobby for laws that PROHIBIT freedom of speech, academic inquiry, debate or discourse to anyone who would dare to question their claims.
IF ARMENIAN GENOCIDE CLAIMS WERE SO INDISPUTABLE, THEY COULD WITHSTAND ROBUST DEBATE AND WOULD NOT REQUIRE ABSOLUTE CENSORSHIP OF DISPARATE VIEWS.
18
JanJan
June 18, 2008
ADMIN: banned for attacking Michael’s fiance, who isn’t even here
19
Eugenie
June 18, 2008
admin: admin actions are not up for debate. you know this, because you have been banned before. now you are banned again.
20
Armen
June 18, 2008
Did you know that Armenians lobbied to make it a crime to question labeling the events of 1915 in southeastern Anatolia?
Denying the Holocaust is a crime in many European countries, Germany serves as a fine example.
While Armenians scream, yell and dance about Article 301, Armenian genocide proponents praise and lobby for laws that PROHIBIT freedom of speech, academic inquiry, debate or discourse to anyone who would dare to question their claims.
Few, if any, Armenians deny that a genocide took place. Almost all historians agree that a genocide took place whereas Turks are the sole deniers of the genocide, with only a handful of scholars who have barely even spoke to a single genocide victim, and who in any case present strawman or otherwise fallacious arguments to justify the deportations.
The reason for this is because almost all Armenians suffered some sort of loss due to the Turks’ actions of 1915-1916. My great-grandmother (from Constantinople, as we all know was near the war zone /end sarcasm) lost her mother during the genocide while she and her sister watched Turkish doctors blind an orphanage full of children in northern Syria.
Have any of you considered as to why Armenian political parties were formed in the first place? Asides from the mythological tales they explain to Turkish children about "foreign interference" (which I do not deny, existed, although at far greater exaggerated level presented by denialists), do you guys honestly think that 90% of the Armenians were happy living under the Islamic laws of the Ottoman Empire? With the double taxation, of the Kurdish tribes unleashed by the Turkish government to punish them, with the devshirmeh system, with being called gavour and denied the right to ride atop horses?
Or do you still think we’re making this up?
21
Kemal
June 18, 2008
Denying the Holocaust is a crime in many European countries, Germany serves as a fine example.
The crimes committed during the Holocaust were proven in courts of law with credible evidence, the right of cross-examination and with due process afforded to the accused.
That has never happened for Armenian claims. NEVER.
Turks are the sole deniers of the genocide
Wrong. There is an ever increasing number of historian and experts in Ottoman history who conclude the genocide label is inappropriate–and, NONE of them are Turks. And, there are many who post here who challenge Armenian claims who are not Turks. Another false assertion on your part.
I’ve read enough of Dashnak publications to know that Armenian militants and revolutionaries were criminals and that statements like "a doctor blinded an entire orphanage" is nothing but a blatant lie.
I’ve also read enough of the recently uncovered documents in the Russian archives to know this is the last gasp for those of you on the genocide kick.
denied the right to ride atop horses?
Talk about fiction. Do you have some forged document you can offer up as proof of this? Armenian genocide proponents claim Armenians had no guns, yet there are tons of photos in publications by Dashnak authors of the time with groups of Armenians very well armed.
Or do you still think we’re making this up?
What you have written–it’s clearly made up.
22
Armen
June 18, 2008
And what exactly are the names of these prominent Ottoman experts? I cannot stress this link enough (though many denialists waive its value), published by the International Association of Genocide Scholars, that the genocide clearly took place: www.genocidewatch.org/TurkishPMIAGSOpenLetterreArmenia6-13-05.htm
If anything, the genocide recognition drive is only growing more prominent, as more and more historians mention it in books.
Yes, there were armed revolutionaries and militants, but they represented perhaps .001 percent of the entire Armenian population. You cannot brand an entire group of people guilty by association, which is a major reason as to why historians believe a genocide took place: what crime did a 1 year old child commit to deserve deportation and massacre? or a disabled person? or a young girl? There is absolutely no rational justification anyone has been able to counter this point, security measures be damned.
that statements like "a doctor blinded an entire orphanage" is nothing but a blatant lie.
How hurtful. How hurtful of you to ever say something like that without an ounce of shame on your soul. My great-grandmother was but 6 years old during the genocide and she would always speak in Turkish but she would never speak ill of the Turks. The exact opposite, she would praise those great Turks who went to lengths to save her and her sister’s lives, those Turks from the Red Crescent who put their lives on the line so that they can remind Armenians that not everyone was their enemy.
Talk about fiction. Do you have some forged document you can offer up as proof of this? …What you have written–it’s clearly made up.
Abundantly many, yes. Take any course in Ottoman history, ask any serious history professor, and you will hear the exact same things. Read the history of the Ottoman Empire published by authors such as Taner Akcam, Robert Melson, and Donald Bloxham and you will be enlightened. Read at least two books that present the genocide thesis (know well, that I have read all of the denialist literature on the genocide, which are so flimsily built on lies and are not in need of addressing here) and I dare you to return unconvinced in face of such overwhelming evidence.
I pity you. I pity you because a certain group of individuals have robbed you and your countrymen of learning about the truth of the Armenian genocide. And they have done so in the most despicable manner by playing to your nationalist and ethnic beliefs, by claiming that we Armenians posed a danger to your national security, that we massacred your people by the hundreds of thousands — all of which are blanket lies.
I hope you learn the truth one day Kemal, inshallah. In the end, you and your fellow compatriots stand to benefit from it. I hope you think of my grandmother’s words (her name was Rosa,by the way, 1908, born in Constantinopolis -1999, died in Los Angeles,CA) the next time you meet another ancestor of a genocide survivor and be far more amiable and reserve your anger towards those who have cheated you of teaching you the horrors of 1915.
If you persist, and wish to lecture me about our "treachery" and repeat more Turkish government myths, feel free to do so but know that I will not read your words and that you will have lost a potential friend to help you.
Good luck.
23
Lucrèce
June 18, 2008
Denying the Holocaust is a crime in many European countries, Germany serves as a fine example.
Denying the Shoah is a violation of res judicata. If there’s a similar violation in the Armenian affair, it’s the Armenian propaganda, because the judicial in Malta ended by a non-lieu-general.
The German governement has alwas refused to approve the Armenian allegations.
Guenter Lewy and Eberhard Jäckel, two of the most respected specialists of nazism, have challenged the "genocide fanfare".
The comparison between the Shoah and the events of 1915-1916 makes no sense.
24
Lucrèce
June 18, 2008
And what exactly are the names of these prominent Ottoman experts?
Paul Dumont : professor at Strasbourg-II University, former director of the Institut français d’études anatoliennes (French Institute of Anatolian Studies);
Roderic H. Davison (RIP): former professor at George Washington university;
Edward J. Erickson: Ph.D., researcher at Birmingham university;
Michael M. Gunter: professor at Tennessee university;
Gwynne Dyer: Ph.D.;
J. C. Hurewitz (RIP): former professor at Columbia university;
Bernard Lewis: professor emeritus at Princeton university;
Heath Lowry: professor at Princeton university;
Justin McCarthy: professor at Louisville university;
Andrew Mango;
Jeremy Salt: professor at Melbourne university;
Stanford Jay Shaw (RIP): former professor at UCLA;
Norman Stone: professor at Bilkent university, former professor at Oxford;
Gilles Veinstein: professor at the Collège de France.
I cannot stress this link enough (though many denialists waive its value), published by the International Association of Genocide Scholars, that the genocide clearly took place:
"I am less than impressed by the unanimous vote of the International Association of Genocide Scholars that the Armenian case ‘was one of the major genocides of the modern era.’ The great majority of these self-proclaimed experts on Ottoman history have never set foot in an archive or done any other original research on the subject in question."
Guenter Lewy, Shoah-survivor, retired professor from Massachussetts university, author of The Armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey: www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/genocide–11140?page=2
25
Kemal
June 18, 2008
Your offer of pity is rather touching, even if insincere. Keep your pity for yourself, you need it.
And what exactly are the names of these prominent Ottoman experts?
For starters there’s William Batkay, Roderic Davidson, Paul Dumont, Dr. Gwynne Dyer, Edward J. Erickson, Edwin A. Grosvenor, Michael Gunter, J.C. Hurwitz, Eberhard Jäckel, Steven Katz, Avigdor Levy, Bernard Lewis, Guenther Lewy, Heath Lowry, Andrew Mango, Robert Mantran, Justin McCarthy, Pierre Oberling, Dankwart Rostow, Jeremy Salt, Stanford Shaw, Norman Stone, and Gilles Veinstein.
armed revolutionaries and militants, but they represented perhaps .001 percent
Really? And, what piece of Armenian genocide propaganda did you get that ridiculous percentage that is so easily proven false?
According to Katchaznouni, Pasdermajian and Bogho Nubar–Armenian revolutionary leaders in 1915, 200,000 Armenians were armed and fighting against the Ottoman regime during WWI. That’s more troops than the U.S. has in Iraq.
Of course, these three distinguished Armenian militants wrote those admissions long before the strategy of using genocide claims to try to obtain possession of lands Armenian militants could not obtain by force.
Then there are the words of the infamous Toynbee:
"Since the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-8, the Armenian diaspora in the north-eastern territories of the Ottoman Empire had been nursing political ambitions. Like the Greek diaspora farther to the west in Anatolia, the Armenians had been hoping to be able, one day, to carve out a successor state of the Ottoman Empire for themselves. These Greek and Armenian political aspirations had not been legitimate; for the diasporas were minorities scattered among a Turkish majority. Their aspirations did not merely threaten to break up the Turkish Empire; they could not be fulfilled without doing grave injustice to the Turkish people itself."
Arnold J. Toynbee, Acquaintances (1967), p. 241.
Edward Erickson’s new article Ottoman Military Policy and the Armenians lays out all of the activity Armenian militias engaged in to sabotage all Ottoman efforts to defend against the invasion of Ottoman lands by Russia. They were quite systematic and deliberate in their purpose and more than one historian has opined that Armenian militant activity cost the Ottomans the war.
that we massacred your people by the hundreds of thousands — all of which are blanket lies.
I guess that means that you haven’t read about the most recent document pulled out of the Russian archives in which a Russian general reports back to his command that the Armenian militias are out of control and massacring the local Ottoman civilian population and that it would not be surprising if the Armenian militias turned their bayonets on the Russians once they were finished with the Ottomans.
I suppose it also means that you don’t know that Anatolia absorbed over 7 million refugees, while 5 million others disappeared altogether, from 1821-1920 as a result of being "cleansed" from the Balkans and the Caucasus by Orthodox Christians and Armenians. You can read about those statistics in Kemal Karpat’s book on Ottoman population statistics, if you care to educate yourself about what the Armenian militias were up to.
I guess it also means you don’t know why France withdrew its support for the Armenian Legion and their efforts to establish an ethnically pure "greater" Armenia in southeastern Anatolia–I’ll give you a hint–it’s because the Legion was committing vile atrocities against the unarmed civilian population, again.
I have read all of the denialist literature on the genocide
Really? and what have you read? Your time might be better spent reading some of the publications by your own Armenian revolutionaries who describe how bravely they fought and killed.
Have you read Dasnabedian’s history of the Dashnaks? It lays out in great detail all of their insurgent and terrorist activities.
cheated you of teaching you the horrors of 1915
How presumptuous and arrogant of you. My family was ethnically cleansed by Christians on both sides of the family, one side from the Balkans, the other from the Caucasus.
Turks living throughout southeastern Anatolia today have their own horror stories–and they are all about atrocities committed by Armenian militias. And then, we have the more recent videos of the Khojaly massacres committed by Armenian militias. It seems their tactics have not changed much during the past 100 years.
How hurtful. How hurtful of you
Oh, that’s right, how could we forget?
Armenians are permitted to malign, slander and libel an entire nation, accuse it of crimes against humanity, but Armenians are not required to prove their allegations or anything for that matter, and at the same time, urge countries to pass laws to make it a crime for that nation or its people to speak. That’s justice and democracy according to Armenian genocide proponents.
I pity you.
Save your pity for yourself and for your people. Those of you who persist with genocide claims have not learned from your past mistakes–allowing yourselves to be used and abandoned by European powers that cared not one whit if you had an independent homeland, but intended to, and did, use Armenian militias to suit their purposes. And, once their goals were achieved, abandoned them. Do you know about the Picot-Sykes Agreement? If you don’t, look it up and see if there’s a "greater Armenia" in the plan. Hint: there isn’t.
Armenia is free and independent for the first time in a thousand years, and your people have squandered this precious time on warring with neighboring countries and promoting genocide claims that will get you nothing, when your time, money and efforts would have been better spent developing an economy, helping your poor, improving your democracy.
Instead, Armenia is now moving back into the Russian sphere and losing U.S. support, soon to become the hapless puppet and Russian satellite of old. Yes, that’s a much better option than engaging in friendly relations with neighboring countries and cutting the strings that have bound your people for over 100 years to the Russians, who have never had Armenians best interests in mind.
And, as for your complaints in your previous post about the Ottoman government’s treatment of Armenians. The Ottoman borders were not closed. Armenians were free to migrate to other countries if they chose throughout the life of the Empire. But they chose not to. Why?
Because Europe was killing any and all who refused to submit to the supremacy of the catholic church, whereas the Ottoman Empire welcomed the Gregorian Christians and even established their patriarch in Istanbul.
you will have lost a potential friend to help you.
Help yourself first. I live firmly in the present, not in the past. While my family was cleansed from its homelands, I don’t seek revenge, reparations or to retrieve whatever was lost. It’s those who are lost in some bizarre prurient distortion of the past and who cannot live in the present who are in dire need of help.
26
Lucrèce
June 18, 2008
Edward Erickson’s new article Ottoman Military Policy and the Armenians lays out all of the activity Armenian militias engaged in to sabotage all Ottoman efforts to defend against the invasion of Ottoman lands by Russia. They were quite systematic and deliberate in their purpose and more than one historian has opined that Armenian militant activity cost the Ottomans the war.
Read online: armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2008/04/2438-armenians-and-ottoman-military.html
27
nevber
June 18, 2008
I must really ask you Armen, what is the name of the doctor who was blinding children? Or is this yet another concoction from your diasporas fantastic imagination. This totally confirms the fact that, your minds are filled with filth, horrible stories of untrue events and your hearts are (on purpose) consumed with hate. If you want to know about first hand pain, why don’t you sit down and talk to an Iraqi? They can REALLY tell you what pain and suffering means. Instead of dwelling on BS stories that is only hear say from 100 years ago!
28
Lucrèce
June 18, 2008
www.eraren.org/index.php?Lisan=en&Page=YayinIcerik&IcerikNo=217
The children who had been adopted and the women who had converted were being identifled and gathered by a commission. We can make the following observations concerning this issue.
In 1922 in the League of Nations it was claimed that hundreds of thousands of Armenians and Greek children and women were still hidden in the ‘harems’ in Turkey. We quote the following passage from a brochure published by the Ministry of the Interior:
"After the Armistice the Ottoman Government spent more than 1,150,000 liras, and employed hundreds of officials to return the Greeks and Armenians to their previous areas of residence from the regions they had been transferred to. The procedures involving the transfer of these people to their homelands, and returning to them their movable and immovable properties, have been carried out through joint delegations formed by British officers appointed by the British High Commission, Ottoman officials, and one member of each of the interested nations. These delegations, whose number exceeded 62, formed by British and Ottoman officials, which were sent to all parts of the country, acted with the utmost attention and care. Even women who had married Muslim men of their own accord were summoned one by one, and were asked again if they had consented, and those who declared that they were pleased were left to their wishes. In the ‘harems’ or orphanages of Istanbul there were not hundreds of thousands of Armenian or Greek children and women, there are not even two children who remained. While there are no remaining Armenian children, some Muslim children, asserted to be Armenian, are still in Armenian orphanages, even though their mothers and fathers are known to be alive."
Then, how is it possible that thousands of Armenian children, as it is claimed, are still in the presence of Turks? How can the League of Nations, which does not have the legal character of an executive power, and does not have an organization or the means to investigate the actual situation in depth, conceive of the existence of children and women whom the police force, the joint delegation, and the high officials of the Entente Powers in Istanbul were unable to find?
For those who are somewhat aware of the actual situation, the matter is quite simple. Because, if an American historian, who has been in Turkey for more than thirty years, and who is at present a member of the Executive Committee of a Benevolent Society in Istanbul, can try to find (only a week ago) a slave market in Istanbul where girls and women are sold for money, then the report and speech reminding one of the Arabian Night Stories, made by Mademoiselle Vakaresko of Rumania, who does not know Turkey, who constantly looks at Turkey from the perspective of the Armenians and the Greeks, and who is influenced by their exaggeration of violence, must not be considered strange.
How can it be explained that this issue which has escaped the attention and the investigation of the officials, the official and non-official organizations of the Great Entente Powers in Istanbul, was able to be detected only by Mademoiselle Vakaresko who resides in Switzerland?’[117]
Halide Edip makes an interesting observation about the children in the orphanages.
"… Taking the Armenian children from the Turkish orphanages was becoming a tragic sight…. A committee was founded, presided over by Colonel Heathcote Smythe, and it was attempting to find the Armenian children and separate them from the Turkish children. They had rented a house in Shishli (a quarter of Istanbul). The majority of the central committee which was to separate the children were Armenians. Nezihe Hanim, General Secretary of the womens’ branch of the Red Crescent, had been invited to represent the Turks…. When children were brought from the orphanages in Anatolia, to Istanbul, they were sent to the Armenian church in Kumkapu, and there they were claimed to be Armenian. Some children tried to escape, but were caught and brought back.
It was a day when I had gone to visit Nezihe Hanim. Two frightened children came into the room, one was limping and the other had been wounded in the head… they had come from an orphanage and had been brought to a church. They had strongly resisted being considered as Armenians, as the Armenians had killed their parents. They had been severely beaten, but had succeeded in escaping. They were crying, they were pleading to be protected, not to be sent back…. Nezihe Hanim called a few journalists and requested that they be brought to Mr. Ryan, the head translator of the British Embassy…. Although it was known how much hatred he had against the Turks, Nezihe Hanim thought that he would be compassionate in the presence of these two innocent and desperate children…. I later heard that when these two children were speaking, an Armenian official entered the room to say something to Mr. Ryan. One of the children screamed ‘this was the man who beat and kicked us’. The man was a member of the delegation in the Church of Kumkapu…."
The pain of this little creature aLected me very much. For me he symbolized the desperate Turkish nation. He was small and weak.[118]
29
Kemal
June 18, 2008
Ah, Lucrece, Halide Edip’s "The Turkish Ordeal" contains some very sad and distressing stories from that time. She has another story in there about a little boy that they forcibly took, despite his repeated protestations that he was a Turk and not an Armenian. He was still shouting that he was a Turk as they took him from her presence.
Ataturk’s memoirs also contain stories of children he ran across who were parentless as a result of the massacres. I think the little boy that his mother raised was one of those children that he found and couldn’t leave behind.
Kazim Karabekir’s memoirs have yet to be published, but Halide Edip writes that he adopted in some fashion over 1,000 orphaned children he found in northeastern Anatolia after his forces drove the Armenian militias back into Russian territory in 1920. I believe Karabekir’s daughter is working on getting his memoirs published soon.
30
Armen
June 18, 2008
*sigh*
I have said my piece. If you wish to repeat your lies over and over again, go ahead, the rest of the world is clearly not listening. It’s up to all of you to face reality.
I hope you may all see the light one day and that the Armenians forgive what your ancestors did to theirs.
Take care, and God protect you all.
31
Jason, Managing Editor
June 18, 2008
The idea that people in the present should need forgiveness for something that their ancestors allegedly did is what keeps cycles of violence alive in the first place. However, it is unsurprising that you would endorse that mindset, Armen.
32
John
June 19, 2008
P.Connolly.
No, The real ploy is to equate the actions of Armenian revolutionaries to that of the colossal crime of the Turkish State, and indoctrinating generations of Turks that left them ignorant to the fact that there were, in Anatolia, an Armenian nation who lived on their ancestral lands. Tourists came to Anatolia only to find medieval churches belonging to "Christian ancestors of the Turkish nation". That is a ploy.
I am not "you people", I am an individual who thinks that you, and this magazine, continuously disregard huge volumes of evidences that point to Turkish culpability, a practice that perfectly falls in line with the Turkish government stance, and so long as Turks do not have the freedom to investigate, by themselves, these issues freely, no Turkish government source is to be trusted. And an offer for a "commission of historians" is void of any seriousness. Just today, the five months prison term imposed on a book publisher on Armenian issues , Ragib Zarakolu, speaks volumes.
It is amusing to see how Katchaznouni’s words have spread like wild-fire among the Turkish detractors and websites, with a frenzy of copy-and-pasting activities as if a Holy Grail of "Armenian treachery" has been unearthed. All Katchaznouni does is simply confirm what is a well-known, publicly discussed and never denied facts that Armenian liberation movements, such as the ARF, tried to protect the Armenians from Turkish onslaught and also made mistakes and certainly suffered the consequences, there is nothing new in this. The Muslim killings by Armenians, on the Eastern Russian borders with the Ottoman Empire, were directly connected to recent Ottoman actions. It is a well crafted ploy (using your words) on the Turkish side to try to equalize this with the Turkish genocidal campaigns, and pretend the Ottoman government was merely responding to Armenian attacks. This just does not add up because of one glaring and undeniable fact:
The "existence" of so-called 200 000 UNIFORMED Armenian armies that you promote as another "Holy Grail", which supposedly were strong enough to have been been able to threaten the Ottoman Empire, is contradicted by Katchaznouni’s statements, they were no match against the Turkish Armies and made a mistake in thinking so. The "threat" issue has always been an unattainable accusation, this only proves it’s so. Secondly, this vast Armenian army of 200 000 soldiers somehow vanishes from the scene, into a thin air, and it’s nowhere to be seen when town after town, village after village unarmed defenseless and easily targeted populations where herded like sheep and marched to their deaths by relatively small number of Turkish military units. Kurdish tribes feasted upon these deportees with complete and unchecked freedom. This is an argument, with a solid factual basis, that only proves the Turkish leadership was intentionally targeting the peaceful and defenseless population. It is curious that this very issue evades your and this magazine’s attention. An oversight? not likely.
In the absence of honest and self-critical debates within the Turkish society today only gives rise to nationalistic fervor, an accusation often labeled against the Armenians by the Turks, which fits perfectly to modern Turkish attitudes.
33
nevber
June 19, 2008
John, you have said nothing new or different from your friends in this blog. What boring and repetitive rhetoric your minds were indoctrinated in. But I understand it! In order for the next generation to feel Armenian, your Diaspora must feed the same junkie thoughts over and over again. Otherwise, with out the issue of “genocide”, your kids/grand kids will disintegrate into the societies they are living in. The big “G” is the glue that must be kept going at all costs. Otherwise, your children will no longer feel Armenian, but rather French, Canadian or American…
34
Scarlet
June 19, 2008
I agree with your comments #33 Nevber, The Armenian Diaspora was born out of the idea of genocide. Genocide has become the only issue and identity of the Armenians today. The psychology of Armenians world wide has been damaged by the propoganda, the exagerrated stories, etc.. I have read the very disturbing article written by Ms. Line Abrahamian for the Readers Digest. She clearly states that her own mother who is a kindergarden teacher teaches 5 year olds, genocide courses! Armenian children are raised with horrible images of their ancestors dead bodies and the cruelty of those ‘barbaric Turks’.Nothing but child abuse if you ask me….They are brought up with hatred and only the one-sided versions of the events….when told of the Turkish deaths, they simply reply that those were acts of self-defense…it is utterly useles.As Armen so conveniently dissed us all for simply explaining our view…they ONLY care about the deaths of their ancestors and have been forced to believe that these deaths were the results of an organized, well thought out planned, extermination of the Armenian population….with the exception of tens of thousands of Armenians being ’spared’ by this genocide , in Istanbul.. And they will not even question how could it have been ever possible for hundreds of thousands of people, with small children, to escape on foot …in the desert none the less…from those brutal Turkish troops and …ending up in other countries safely. ..By the way Armen, incase you are still on and reading the posts, an answer to your question regarding the Russian archive that has been discovered…’How is is it that the report of this one Russian General being embraced with such enthusiasm, and the the reports of the aforementioned individuals are always waived as wartime propoganda’…Because my dear Armen, the Russians were an enemy of Ottoman Turks and friends of the Armenians!! Hope that says it all.
35
John
June 19, 2008
Nevber,
Otherwise, with out the issue of “genocide”, your kids/grand kids will disintegrate into the societies they are living in. The big “G” is the glue that must be kept going at all costs. Otherwise, your children will no longer feel Armenian, but rather French, Canadian or American…
Every time a community lives outside the boundaries of its national homeland there is always the possibility of assimilation. This is true for any ethnic group, including the Turks, I’m afraid. But "disintegration" is only a wishful thinking on your part. On the contrary, Armenians have successfully integrated among different communities around the world and have flourished thanks to a deep understanding of the importance of education.
By contrast, take your PM, Mr. Erdogan, who shamefully warned, on a recent visit to Germany, about the "dangers" of integration withing the German society, and undiplomatically called for Turks born in Germany to learn and speak only Turkish, to remain a good Turks. I guess he was calling for the dis-integration of the Turks, so to speak, living abroad. Is this because Turks are assimilating so fast that they are dropping Turkish values the minute they stop speaking Turkish?
Armenians cling to their nationality by a deeply rooted culture and deep faith in Christianity. Only those, like you, with little knowledge about the Armenians can come up with this ridiculous idea that the Genocide issue is just a "national preservation" issue. The rich Armenian culture is a driving force to fight against the injustice of the Genocide and the Turkish denial, not the other way around.
36
nevber
June 19, 2008
John, at first I really wanted to write you a long response but then I thought, what is the use? It would be like talking to a brick wall! You are so far gone that it would be impossible for me to reach you on a human level. Tell your Diaspora, they did a good job on you. I am sure the way you feel about yourself and Turks, you will do a good job on your kids! Pass along the "rich" education that was given to you by your family and community… After all "HATE" is easy to teach and not that expensive…
37
Global Hero
June 20, 2008
That Armenians in general hate the Turks is just a fiction coming out of the imagination of Turkey’s propaganda machine in order to stir up Turks against Armenians. As far as I know Armenians are asking for justice and that in my mind is not hate. It is a win win if Turkey plays it right.
38
P. Connolly
June 20, 2008
Response to "John" above in post #32:
"…no Turkish government source is to be trusted"
A position like that might work in Armenian Propaganda meetings where Armenian Propagandists regurgitate their vicious rhetoric about "Turkish Government Denial" and it might also work with those ignorant vote-hungry legislators you people are constantly seducing into passing legislation to put "Deniers of the Armenian Genocide" into jail. But it doesn’t work here and it doesn’t work with impartial historians who are experts in determining which government documents can be accepted and which ones must be questioned and rejected. Only Armenian Propagandists who are raised on a diet of Anti-Turkish Hatred take such a position; it only proves how hate-filled they are!!
"The Muslim killings by Armenians, on the Eastern Russian borders with the Ottoman Empire, were directly connected to recent Ottoman actions."
No, no!! Wrong again!! The Muslim killings by Armenians were directly connected to an AMBITION to "Take Back" lands which they considered to be "theirs" - lands where Armenians were in a small minority. But because of the intervention of the Western Powers and Russia the Armenians -even though they were a minority- thought themselves powerful enough to overthrow the rule of the Turkish Government; but first they had to "do something" about all those Moslems living in those lands which they suddenly decided were "Theirs".
"Secondly, this vast Armenian army of 200,000 soldiers somehow vanishes from the scene, into a thin air"
No, Wrong again; they didn’t "vanish ..into thin air" - some fled across the Caucasus and some of them disappeared into the civilian population. In many ways this was the Ottoman Empire’s "Vietnam"; the local population was supportive of the revolutionaries.
39
John
June 20, 2008
P. Connolly,
You’re beginning to bore me.
nevber,
In all of my posts I have never used a disparaging or denigratory remark to you or anyone else, but in return I have received quite a few insults. That’s OK, this is not my problem. However, you gratuitously call me a sub-human and yet claim that I am the one full of hate.
In reality you are hiding behind an irrational yet convenient "feelings" of being "hated" to avoid facing the truth. Talking about the reality of the Armenian genocide is not hateful, it is beneficial first of all to Turkish democracy, because you’d be debating about a true event, instead of wasting energy in rewriting it.
I realize that these words may anger you, that is not my intention, and I apologize if I sound didactic, I am simply expressing my honest feelings.
I think I have said all I have to say.
good day
40
Kemal
June 20, 2008
it is beneficial first of all to Turkish democracy,
Oh? So genocide claims are promoted to benefit Turkey and Turks?
Did ASALA and the Justice Commandos kill innocent unarmed people to benefit Turkey and Turks?
So Armenian aspirations to annex eastern Anatolia is purely to benefit Turkey and Turkish democracy?
Now, if that isn’t a prime example of someone pissing on your leg and telling you its raining, I don’t know what is.
There were not riots, no one was killed or arrested for challenging Turkey’s last election. The same cannot be said of the last Armenian election.
Turks do not flee to Armenia to live as illegal immigrants, whereas Armenians flee Armenia and prefer to live in Turkey as illegal immigrants.
Perhaps you should try to save Armenia’s "democracy" first.
41
Kemal
June 20, 2008
That Armenians in general hate the Turks is just a fiction coming out of the imagination of Turkey’s propaganda machine
That a large segment of the Armenian diaspora teaches its children to hate Turks is a reality that is admitted by Armenians:
So at age five, I decided to hate all Turks. At my Armenian school in Montreal, the worst insult you could hurl at another kid wasn’t a four-letter word, it was “Turk lover.” … “So would I be less loyal to my heritage if I didn’t hate Turks?” I ask her. “Yes,” my mom replies unflinchingly.
Line Abrahamian, My Jounrey from hate to Hope, Reader’s Digest
Our patriotism is nothing if not anti-Turkism, and the most patriotic Armenian is the most anti-Turkish. In general, for an Armenian, anti-Turkism and patriotism are directly proportional. The whole of our Soviet literature and art, the whole of our culture, bears the stamp of anti-Turkism ….
Vartan Harutiunyan, Patriotism versus Patria (archive.hetq.am/eng/society/h-0203-vharutiunyan.html)
And, of course, there’s this–right out of the "horse’s mouth": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUdLgof56Bw
42
nevber
June 20, 2008
John, in my young developing years, I was a victim of ASALA. I can tell you some seriously terrible stories. But I won’t! "Constant Fear", "Anger", "Isolation", "In Just", "Treats", were ONLY some of the feelings. But family or my friends never uttered a hateful word against Armenians. Sure we were all angry! But our anger was also directed to Europe, Canada US for empowering and unfairly being only on the Armenian side to the point where promoting and support a TERRORIST Group! And here is the result!!!! Armenian Diaspora only lives with hate. Where is my proof? READ ALL THE COMMENTS! and INCLUDING YOURS AGAIN please! Did you make me angry?? NO! You repeat the same boring thing, your history is all messed up, your people are in need of serious therapy… Heck! I met a woman once, when she found out, I was Turkish, she wouldn’t even shake my hand…. If a white person did that to a Black woman or a German to a Jewish Woman, Can you imagine what would happen???? But some how Armenians can get away with it! Your people remind me of spoiled kid! Editors of this Blog are not exactly on the Armenian thesis of "G", you are all having a fit and acting like you are all on a sugar rush…. get over it!!! GENOCIDE IS A LIE that the Europeans have started and you are continuing…. And I said all I wanted to say…. good by to you!
43
nevber
June 20, 2008
Correction: "In Justice"
44
Lucrèce
June 20, 2008
it is beneficial first of all to Turkish democracy
What a good joke.
“Dear compatriots, against Turkey, we will continue to organize us. Us to organize for better mobilizing us. Us to mobilize for better achieving our goals. To better achieve our goals to gain. Not only for the recognition of the genocide, but also for the construction of a free, independent and reunified Armenia, so that all together, we can take again possession of Van, Much, Kars, Sassun, Bitlis and Erzurum. (Chers compatriotes, contre la Turquie, nous allons continuer à nous organiser. Nous organiser pour mieux nous mobiliser. Nous mobiliser pour mieux atteindre nos objectifs. Mieux atteindre nos objectifs pour gagner. Non seulement pour la reconnaissance du génocide mais aussi pour l’édification d’une Arménie libre, indépendante et réunifiée pour que tous ensemble, nous puissions reprendre possession de Van, Mouch, Kars, Sassoun, Bitlis et Erzeroum.)”
Mourad Papazian, chief of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation for Western Europe, speech in Marseille, 24 April 2006.
“Declaration of the 18th General Assembly of S.D.H.P. - 2005 The 18th General Assembly of the Social Democratic Hunchakian Party was held during the last weeks of November in Larnaka, Cyprus. 52 delegates representing 12 adherent part regions participated along with the outgoing Central Executive Board.
[…]
Summarizing the viewpoints expressed by the delegates on the subject of those relations, the Assembly came to the conclusion that on non-official levels that dialogue lead to the recognition of the Genocide and developing the Turkish public opinion in that regard, while the official Armenian-Turkish discussion be conditional on the recognition of the Genocide. The Assembly reaffirmed the traditional positions of the S. D. Hunchakian Party regarding the Armenian Cause and territorial demands.”
Official Website of Hunchakian Party, Australian branch : www.hunchak.org.au/aboutus/historical_Declaration2005.html
“It is in our blood to hate the Turks.”Narek Mesropian, Golos Armenii, August 5, 1997 “Moreover, Armenian willingness to employ unwise violence continued into more recent times despite the attempt by Joseph Kéchichian to term the murder of numerous Turkish diplomats in the 1970s and 1980s as merely ‘alleged Armenian terrorism.’ Several of these murders occurred in the United States. In addition, Armenian activists demanded that Cambridge University Press withdraw Stanford Shaw’s History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (1977) because they did not agree with some of its findings; they threatened the noted UCLA history professor and even bombed his house in Los Angeles. Furthermore, one of the first things newly independent Armenia did upon winning its independence from the Soviet Union in 1991 was to attack Turkic Azerbaijan and conquer some 16 percent of its territory. To this day, Armenia claims large sections of eastern Turkey. However, those who point out such inconvenient facts are denounced as ‘genocide deniers’ who should not even have the right to express themselves. No wonder Turks are hesitant to confess to genocide as defined by their enemies.”Michael M. Gunter, professor of political science, university of Tennessee (hnn.us/roundup/entries/41948.html).
45
Lucrèce
June 20, 2008
That Armenians in general hate the Turks is just a fiction coming out of the imagination of Turkey’s propaganda machine
Armenians in general, no, but the great majority of Armenian notables and activists, and a great part of the diaspora, yes.
www.ataa.org/reference/topalian/VIS6_Berkoz_Affidavit.pdf “During the trial [of G. Yanikian], bus load of Armenian children, aged 7-13, would be transported from Los Angeles area, and when Mr. Yanikian was escorted to the room they would rise in unison to greet a man who was their hero, just because he had murdered two innocent men.” In the same times, Armenian-Americans quickly mobilized and formed a group called “American Friends of Armenian Martyrs” to rise funds for his defense and to use the court case as “an educational campaign to bring the story of Turkish genocide before the American and world attention” (Armenian Mirror-Spectator, March 24, 1973). Until his death almost a decade later, a few months after he was released from prison on the order of the then California governor, George Deukmejian, Yanikian continued to receive gifts and supportive letters from Armenian-Americans (ATAA, Armenian Atrocities and Terrorism, Washington, 1997). The 28 January 1982, Turkey’s Los Angeles Consul General Kemal Arikan was killed by the dashnak militant Hampig Sassounian, who was sentenced to life imprisonment. Sassounian’s father states on public television, “I am glad that a Turk was killed, but my son did not do it.”
A campaign to provide funds for Sassounian’s defense raised $250,000 in small donations from Armenian-Americans throughout the United States. (Michael M. Gunter, “Pursuing the Just Cause of Their People”: A Study of Contemporary Armenian Terrorism, Wesport-New York, Greenwood Press, 1986, p. 74.)
After Hampig Sassounian was found guilty of murdering the Turkish Consul in Los Angeles in 1982… Bishop Yeprem Tabakian, the prelate of the Western Prelacy of the Armenian Apostolic Church, stated: “Hampig’s conviction is an indictment directed against all Armenians.” Archbishop Vatche Hovsepian, the primate of the Western Diocese of the Armenian Church, added: “I am truly shocked about the verdict.” George Mason, the moderate publisher of The California Courier, concluded: “There are many Armenian Americans in California who feel great sympathy and support for Armenian terrorists. I have talked to numerous peaceful, fair, and thoughtful men who have expressed support for the terrorists.”
46
Lucrèce
June 20, 2008
Since 1984, ARF commemorate every years the suicide-attack against the Turkish embassy in Lisbon (25 July 1983), and describe the five terrorists as “heroes” (Gaïdz Minassian, Guerre et terrorisme arméniens, Paris, PUF, 2002). On March 9, 1983, Galip Balkar, the Turkish ambassador to Yugoslavia, was killed by two dashnak terrorists. Both opened also fire on passers-by. One student was killed, two other personns wounded.
The Armenian Weekly (a dashnak newspaper of US), proclaimed that the trial of the two Armenian terrorists was "becoming like the Tehlirian trial" in the sense that the accused terrorists could and were justifying their actions in terms of their political demands against Turkey (“The Belgrade 2 Trial: Becoming Like Tehlirian Trial,” Armenian Weekly, Dec. 24, 1983, p. 1).
The Armenian Reporter wrote, about the same trial: “To consider it a criminal act distorts the selfless struggles of the Armenian Youth, who are pursuing the just cause of their people” (quoted in Michael M. Gunter, "Pursuing the Just Cause of their People": A Study of Contemporary Armenian Terrorism, Westport-New York, Greenwood Press, 1986, introduction: www.ataa.org/reference/cause-gunter.html).
47
Lucrèce
June 20, 2008
www.azsam.org/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=32
Journalists who were waiting for the spoker-man to listen his press statement in Armenia, they forgot the reason of their being there and clapped him for a long time. This event was lived in May before the Armenian authorities’ explanation of their offering sympathy to USA. This man who was clapped was not a diplomat, politician, sport or an artist. This man was Varujan Karapetyan [= Garbidjian] who was a member of “ASALA” – Armenian Secret Army- and who organised the bombing attack in Orly airport in France in 1983.
This organization-ASALA- was a terrorist one which was based on Armenian Revolutionist Federation and organised terrorist attacks on Turkish diplomats in European countries beginning from 1980s. As a result of Karapetyan’s bombing attack on Orly airport in 1983, 8 people died. Karapetyan who was an active member of the “ASALA” was caught by the French police and he was given the punishment of life sentence by the French Court on March 3,1985.
In order to put Karapetyan out of French prison, a sign campaign was started and nearly one million sign was collected under the leadership of Echmiadzin Church and of course with the assists of the Armenian government.
As a result of serious “developments” in French judicial system beginning from 1985 and the sign campaign, French Court of Appeal forgave Karapetyan on April 23,2001 conditionally that he had to leave the country immediately. It was a surprising point that he was let out of prison a day before April 24 which has been known as the remembrance day of the so-called genocide. It was also determined that Karapetyan would be given the right of asylum by the Armenian government and in addition to this a house and a job would be supplied to him by the mayor of Yerevan.
In addition to that the Prime Minister of Armenia, Adranik Margaryan, was visited by Varujan Karapetyan; Margaryan explained his pleasure with Karapetyan’s heroic struggle for Armenia and he demanded Karapetyan to be looked after from the Minister of Health.
The Kocharian government applied the Frenvh government and he demanded Karapetyan to be given back to Armenia in a period when the Kocharian government let the re-activities of Armenian Revolutionist Federation in 1998which was banned by the Armenian Attorney General in 1996 because of taking place in terrorist activities. Armenian Revolutionist Federation whose activities were let in 1991 is not just a political party; it has been a power which has taken place in many terrorist activities, has made its game rules to be accepted and has governed Armenia behind the scenes. Terrorism has been the official ideology of Armenia. Armenia has been seriously developing her relations with Syria, Lebanon, Iran and PKK terrorist organisation. USA who declared that she would be against any country who would not support her in her struggle with terrorism, could not decide whether Armenia was against her or net.
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Lucrèce
June 20, 2008
An article entirely dedied to Monte Melkonian, by the most important Armenian-French Website:
www.armenews.com/article.php3?id_article=31647
Approximative translation:
Monte Melkonian, is undoubtedly the main figure of the revival of the Armenian struggle in the mid 70. The Armenian of California experienced a extraordinary route of fighter. Involved in the ranks of the ASALA the end of 70 years it has carried out numerous actions to his organization before breaking with it because of its disagreements over what he considered to be a degeneration of its guidelines. On 15 July 1983 he scissionne of Asala, resulting in its wake a majority of its fighting forces and policies. Arrested in France in 1985, he was sentenced to 6 years’ imprisonment. At its release, he soon joined the Karabakh in 1991. It takes the leadership of the region Mardouni, organizes the defense of territory, and leads the major offensives of the liberation struggle before he died as a hero on June 12, 1993, near Aghdam.
49
nevber
June 20, 2008
Lucrece, I had to go to the gym this morning to sweat out my memories…. They are not all that pleasant to remember. And When I read comments of anger, revenge, even as far as threats towards the Editors of this blog and Turks in general, It only confirms to me that the silencing act does not work any longer! We are here to stay. We will also express our feelings, our history, our perspective. Thank you Poligazette for creating such an atmosphere where that is possible!
50
nevber
June 20, 2008
Artac, Please keep your negative thoughts to yourself. No one here is interested in threats. It won’t get you or anyone else anywhere…. Hate and aggression are one of the most negative emotions. Let’s be civil!
51
nevber
June 20, 2008
Thank You ATAA…..
52
P. Connolly
June 21, 2008
Response to post #39:
All this evidence contradicting the various smooth lies attempted by "John" repeatedly in this forum and he claims:
"You’re beginning to bore me"
No, No, the feeling isn’t boredom at all, rather it is frustration at the fact that all his smooth lies have been refuted repeatedly by all the posts in this forum exposing his tactics and deceit. He tries to make Ethnic cleansing, Revolution, and Treason look like self-defense and it doesn’t work here.
It is a typical Armenian tactic to take to attacking their opponents with denigrating remarks when their lying propaganda is exposed.
53
John
June 21, 2008
Kemal,
So Armenian aspirations to annex eastern Anatolia is purely to benefit Turkey and Turkish democracy?
Armenian aspirations of "annexation" of any part of Turkey is as irrational as the Turkish denial of the Armenian genocide. And this irrational fear of any border changes is clearly a driving factor for a futile denial campaign.
P. Connally, no really, you make a boring read.
nevber, I am really sorry about the ASALA having touched you personally, these Armenian terrorist groups knew very well that attacking Turkish symbols would result in hurting and killing innocent people, unfortunately the Armenian masses did not see beyond the "Turkish Symbols" at the time, but soon came to realize that it was a mistake for fringe groups to engage in such "political" activities, the worldwide Armenian grass roots movements simply could no longer tolerate such activities. Today no such groups exist anymore. In the leadership vacuum created by the Lebanese civil war in 1970’s these small group of fanatics took advantage of that vacuum.
I am not justifying it, only explaining it, albeit in a condensed manner.
On a human level, and in a perfect world, no man should hurt another fellow human being.
54
Lucrèce
June 21, 2008
Armenian aspirations of "annexation" of any part of Turkey is as irrational as the Turkish denial of the Armenian genocide. And this irrational fear of any border changes is clearly a driving factor for a futile denial campaign.
Your stubbornness to deny the evidence becomes ridiculous.
poligazette.com/2008/06/16/russian-archives-refute-armenian-claims/#comment-58785
55
Lucrèce
June 21, 2008
Décidément…
"Dear compatriots, against Turkey, we will continue to organize us. Us to organize for better mobilizing us. Us to mobilize for better achieving our goals. To better achieve our goals to gain. Not only for the recognition of the genocide, but also for the construction of a free, independent and reunified Armenia, so that all together, we can take again possession of Van, Much, Kars, Sassun, Bitlis and Erzurum. (Chers compatriotes, contre la Turquie, nous allons continuer à nous organiser. Nous organiser pour mieux nous mobiliser. Nous mobiliser pour mieux atteindre nos objectifs. Mieux atteindre nos objectifs pour gagner. Non seulement pour la reconnaissance du génocide mais aussi pour l’édification d’une Arménie libre, indépendante et réunifiée pour que tous ensemble, nous puissions reprendre possession de Van, Mouch, Kars, Sassoun, Bitlis et Erzeroum.)"
Mourad Papazian, chief of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation for Western Europe, speech in Marseille, 24 April 2006.
"Declaration of the 18th General Assembly of S.D.H.P. - 2005
The 18th General Assembly of the Social Democratic Hunchakian Party was held during the last weeks of November in Larnaka, Cyprus. 52 delegates representing 12 adherent part regions participated along with the outgoing Central Executive Board.
[…]
Summarizing the viewpoints expressed by the delegates on the subject of those relations, the Assembly came to the conclusion that on non-official levels that dialogue lead to the recognition of the Genocide and developing the Turkish public opinion in that regard, while the official Armenian-Turkish discussion be conditional on the recognition of the Genocide. The Assembly reaffirmed the traditional positions of the S. D. Hunchakian Party regarding the Armenian Cause and territorial demands."
Official Website of Hunchakian Party, Australian branch :
www.hunchak.org.au/aboutus/historical_Declaration2005.html
"Moreover, Armenian willingness to employ unwise violence continued into more recent times despite the attempt by Joseph Kéchichian to term the murder of numerous Turkish diplomats in the 1970s and 1980s as merely ‘alleged Armenian terrorism.’ Several of these murders occurred in the United States. In addition, Armenian activists demanded that Cambridge University Press withdraw Stanford Shaw’s History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (1977) because they did not agree with some of its findings; they threatened the noted UCLA history professor and even bombed his house in Los Angeles. Furthermore, one of the first things newly independent Armenia did upon winning its independence from the Soviet Union in 1991 was to attack Turkic Azerbaijan and conquer some 16 percent of its territory. To this day, Armenia claims large sections of eastern Turkey. However, those who point out such inconvenient facts are denounced as ‘genocide deniers’ who should not even have the right to express themselves. No wonder Turks are hesitant to confess to genocide as defined by their enemies."Michael M. Gunter, professor of political science, university of Tennessee (hnn.us/roundup/entries/41948.html).
56
nevber
June 21, 2008
John, First of all, I would like to thank you for recognizing ASALA as a terrorist group, which many Armenians do not to this day! Yes, not only innocent people died for nothing, but also many survivors have to live with the haunting memories. I would also like to add that P. Connally is not a boring read. He is just simply stating the obvious. Your defense or justification about the “Genocide” issue is not seen as legitimate or correct, as you perceive it to be to P. Connally. And I can see his point. So it may sound boring to you because you may not want to hear it. But it seems to many others and me a correct observation. I would also like to add that, both sides may disagree, but as long as what they say stays in the boundaries of intelligent and civil behavior, then I am enjoying the debate. Its when (from both sides), individuals write hateful and angry statements that I loose my patients.
57
Lucrèce
June 22, 2008
New confirmation of the territorial claims by Armenian activists (the same who urge to "recognize" the "genocide"):
eafjd.eu/spip.php?breve1405&lang=fr
(original version of the TDN’s article: www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=107706)
In summary, this Armenian-European lobby (a branch of the ARF) claim the borders of the treaty of Sèvres, a treaty which was never ratified.
Source: PoliGazette
