2677) "I Do Not Apologize" Campaigns Vs. " I Do"

Recent Figures:
• I Expect(Armenian)Apology OzurBekliyorum.com : 85.000
• Not Apologizing OzurDilemiyoruz.biz : 49.000
• I Don't Apologize OzurDilemiyorum.net : 38.000
Vs.

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• We Apologize OzurDiliyoruz.com : 17.000

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* New & Other Sites: Wouldn't It Be Better Merging Your New Site/Database Into Existing Sites ?

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1. As Votes Increase (It's Time) To Lodge Blood Money Claim
2. What Are Some Armenians Planning Next?
3. I Do Not Apologize Campaign
4. Is Turkey Ready to Apologize for 1915? Hetq Online
5. Turkish Thinkers' Armenia Apology, By Sarah Rainsford, BBC
6. Turks' Apology for Armenian Genocide: Not Good Enough By Sassounian
7. Ex-Turkish Envoys Slam Campaign Apologizing To Armenians
8. Declaration Of Retired Turkish Ambassadors With Regard To Campaign
9. Campaign To Apologize Starts
10. Campaign Of Apology, Commentary: O E Lütem

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As Votes Increase Very Timely To Lodge Blood Money Claim
December 17 2008
To fatherland and diaspora armenians. First and armenian saying as an example:-"the cunning fox falls with all fours into the trap". By keeping to their policy of postponing recognition of armenian genocide and denying it, in the past and present, great turkey has inadvertently or if you will unwisely(for to be cuning is one thing wise another) been led to come to terms gradually that indeed history cannot be misinterpreted for long.

The remnants "mnatsortats" heirs should now muster up clout become one superstructure in the diaspora and in partnership (full-fledged) with fatherland lodge our principle cliam, that of compensation for blood shed-blood money- by ottoman turkey at the international court of justice, the u.N and other pertinent instances.

For presenting (belated)apologies is one thing making amends and restitutions to victims another.

At a time when the economic crisis is upon all countries and nations,indeed it may result very difficult for great turkey to make tangible monetary compensations from their almost always defunct treasury coffers. However, another solution exists.
And I have always suggested following:-

in as much as the fuel oil pipeline,the famous btj ,from azeri oil fields ,operated by anglo -american (mainly) oil giants by error or by preference over passed armenia -the shorter route-after recognition by latters' governments the authenticity of the armenian genocide, they should be asked by court to withhold tangible percentage of the transit duty presently being paid to republic of turkey and paid to armenia/armenians,as compensation. Indeed, this on a perpetual basis .As to claim of usrped land/properties and monuments/churches/monasteries destroyed in the thousands, that also ought to be brought to attention of mentioned international instances for a just arbitration-as we ought to(unlike great turkey,admit kurds lived and live there, thence the process for this part of the cliam may take longer to be properly administrated and settled between the three parties involved. Therefore first things first,as the saying goes."Blood money"is indisputable,like the jewish case was and the germans were made to pay.It has this "antecedente".It is a world accepted reality.And the same world now owes to pass justice on the armenian case, period.

At least this time over the armenian reflexes ought to be at a quick pace. And time should not be wasted with futile arguments.

Hama-Haigagani Siro
G.P
Armenian Cafe

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What Are Some Armenians Planning Next?

" I suggest Armenians Should respond to this Apology on The line of " We accept the apology from our Turkish Brothers and sisters " ......

If we all agree on this we should promptly with no time wasted create a Site and make it public around the world , to Show that we are a forgiving nation and people .

This must be done without any mention of any political or religious party , it is simply from Armenian Intellectuals who are sympathetic to this apology from the 222 Turks who advocated for this website. . ."

\\\" . . . I have been a volunteer for the Australian Institute of Holocaust and Genocide studies here in Sydney Australia , and for many years I felt sick when words like Armenian and Turks were brothers and sisters etc were uttered,

but throughout the years I have learnt not to judge all Turks especially those in Academia ,

because they will be our sword in the justice of Genocide recognition in Turkey . . . \\\"

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(Full Name and address withheld)
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And the implications are . . your guess is as good as ours . .

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I Do Not Apologize Campaign
http://www.ozurdilemiyorum.net

I DO NOT APOLOGIZE

If you agree, please support our campaign! [continue]


WHAT THE WORLD NEEDS NOW IS TRUTH AND HONESTY, NOT SELECTIVE MORALITY

BIAS IN THE PHRASE “ARMENIAN GENOCIDE”

If one cherishes values like objectivity, truth, and honesty, then one should use the phrase “Turkish-Armenian conflict”. Asking someone “Do you accept or deny Armenian Genocide” shows anti-Turkish bias. The question, in all fairness, should be re-phrased: “What is your stand on the Turkish-Armenian conflict?”

Turks believe it was a civil war within a world war, engineered, provoked, and waged by the Armenians with active support from Russia, England, and France, and passive support from the U.S. diplomats, missionaries, media, and others with anti-Turkish agendas, all eyeing the vast territories of the collapsing Ottoman Empire. [1]

Most Armenians claim it is a one way genocide, totally ignoring the Armenian complicity in war crimes ranging from raids, rebellions, and terrorism to treason, causing many casualties in the Muslim, mostly Turkish, community.

GENOCIDE ALLEGATIONS IGNORE “THE SIX T’S OF THE TURKISH-ARMENIAN CONFLICT”

While some amongst us may be forgiven for taking the ceaseless Armenian propaganda at face value and believing blatant Armenian falsifications [2] merely because they are repeated so often, it is difficult and painful for people like us, sons and daughters of the Turkish survivors most of whose signatures you see below. [3]

Those seemingly endless “War years” of 1912-1922 (seferberlik yillari) brought wide-spread death and destruction on to all Ottoman citizens. No Turkish family was left untouched, those of most of the signatories’ below included. Those nameless, faceless, selfless Turkish victims are killed for a second time today with politically motivated and baseless charges of Armenian genocide.

Allegations of Armenian genocide are racist and dishonest history.

They are racist because they imply only Armenian (or Christian) dead count, the Turkish (or Muslim) dead do not. [4] The former must be remembered and grieved; the latter must be ignored and forgotten. Do you know how many Muslims, mostly Turks, were killed during World War One? Answer: About 3 million, including half a million of them at the hands of well-armed, well-motivated, and ruthless Armenian revolutionaries and para-military thugs. [3,5] Compare that with less than 300,000 Armenian casualties [8] which number is gradually magnified to 1.5 million over the years through Armenian propaganda.

And the allegations of Armenian genocide are dishonest because they simply dismiss

“THE SIX T’S OF THE TURKISH-ARMENIAN CONFLICT”:

1) TUMULT (as in numerous Armenian armed uprisings between 1890 and 1920) [6,7]

2) TERRORISM (by Armenian nationalists and militias victimizing Ottoman-Muslims between 1882-1920) [8,9]

3) TREASON (Armenians joining the invading enemy armies as early as 1914 and lasting until 1921) [6,7,8,9,10]

4) TERRITORIAL DEMANDS (from 1877 to present, where Armenians were a minority, not a majority, attempting to establish Greater Armenia. Ironically, if the Armenians succeeded, it would be one of the first apartheids of the 20th Century, with a Christian minority ruling over a Muslim majority ) [1-11]

5) TURKISH SUFFERING AND LOSSES (i.e. those caused by the Armenian nationalists: 524,000 Muslims, mostly Turks, met their tragic end at the hands of Armenian revolutionaries during WWI, per Turkish Historical Society. This figure is not to be confused with 2.5 million Muslim dead who lost their lives due to non-Armenian causes during WWI. Grand total: more than 3 million, according to Justin McCarthy) [7-10]

6) TERESET (temporary resettlement) triggered by the first five T’s above and amply documented as such; not to be equated to the Armenian misrepresentations as genocide.) [12]

Armenians, thus, effectively put an end to their millennium of relatively peaceful and co-habitation in Anatolia with Turks, Kurds, Circassians, and other Muslims by killing their Muslim neighbors and openly joining the invading enemy. Muslims were only defending their home like any citizen anywhere would do.

VERDICT WITHOUT DUE PROCESS AMOUNTS TO LYNCHING

Those who take the Armenian “allegations” of genocide at face value seem to also ignore the following facts concerning international law:

1- Genocide is a legal, technical term precisely defined by the U.N. 1948 convention (Like all proper laws, it is not retroactive to 1915.) [13]

2- Genocide verdict can only be given by a "competent court" after "due process" where both sides are properly represented and evidence mutually cross examined. [14]

3- For a genocide verdict, the accusers must prove “intent” and “motive” at a competent court and by allowing due process to run its natural course. This was not, perhaps cannot ever be, done by the Armenians, whose evidence mostly fall into five major categories: hearsay, mis-representations, exaggerations, forgeries, and “other”. [15]

4- Such a "competent court" was never convened in the case of Turkish-Armenian conflict and a genocide verdict does not exist (save a Kangaroo court in occupied Istanbul in 1920 where partisanship, vendettas, and revenge motives left no room for due process.) [8]

5- Genocide claim is political, not historical or factual. It reflects bias against Turks. Therefore, the term genocide must be used with the qualifier "alleged", for scholarly objectivity and truth. [1-15]

6- Recognizing Armenian claim as genocide will deeply insult Turkish-Americans as well as Turkish-Europeans, and Turks around the globe. Such a conduct would negatively influence the excellent relations currently enjoyed between the U.S. and Turkey, if not the West and Turkey. It will, no doubt, please Armenian lobbies in the U.S. Europe and Turkey but disappoint, insult, and outrage Turkey, one of America's closest allies since the Korean War of 1950-53. Turks stood shoulder to shoulder with Americans in Gulf War, Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, and more. Armenian lobbies will have been allowed to poison the U.S.-Turkey relations. American gratitude and thanks will appear to come in the form of the worst insult that can be dished out to an entire nation.

7- History is not a matter of "conviction, consensus, political resolutions, propaganda, or public relations." History is a matter of research, peer review, thoughtful debate, and honest scholarship. Even historians, by definition, cannot decide on a genocide verdict, which is reserved only for a "competent tribunal" with its legal expertise and due process.

8- What we witness today, therefore, amounts to lynching [14] of the Turks by Armenians and their supporters to satisfy the age old Armenian hate, bias, and bigotry. American values like fairness, presumption of innocence until proven guilty, objectivity, balance, honesty, and freedom of speech are stumped under the fanatic Armenian feet. Unprovoked , unjustified, and unfair defamation of Turkey, one of America's closest allies in the troubled Middle East, the Balkans, and the Caucasus, in order to appease some nagging Armenian activists runs counter to American interests.

9- Hate-based, divisive, polarizing, and historically biased proclamations, such as Schiff’s HR 106, have never been an American way to do business. Why start now?

10- Those who claim genocide verdict [14] today, based on the much discredited Armenian evidence, are actually engaging in "conviction and execution without due process", which is the dictionary definition of “lynch mobs”.

APOLOGY ?

Those who claim Turks need to apologize or show sensitivity to victims of WWI and/or their descendants—without remembering or respecting the Muslim, mostly Turkish, victims of the same WWI due to same wartime conditions—are insulting the silent memory of millions of Muslim, mostly Turkish, victims of WWI tragedy. They are also engaging in Ethocide [16],

A new term coined by a Turkish-American in 2003, Ethocide means “systematic extermination of ethics via malicious mass deception for political, economical, religious, social, and other gain.” Ethocide comes with a new Turkish companion term: “AHLAKKIRIM” [17]

If an apology is needed today, then the entire humanity should apologize for the mistakes and excesses of the past generations, without resorting to “selective morality” and discrimination on the basis of ethnicity, race, or religion. And if more sensitivity is required, then it should be provided by all for all, without resorting to division, polarization, hostility, bias, or bigotry. Our accounst of WWI are replete with expressions of sadness and sympathy for all the victims of WWI, Turk, Kurd, Laz, Circassian, Armenian, Arab, Greek, Jew, and all others. We do not feel we should segregate the Armenians or others from this lot and grieve only for them.

If an apology is needed today, we should all start apologizing for the world hunger, global warming, aids epidemics, endless wars, inequity in income distribution, plundering human and natural resources, violation of civil rights of women, children, and some cases all humans, global lack of education and health care, and more.

ISN’T IT TIME TO STOP FIGHTING THE FIRST WORLD WAR AND GIVE PEACE A CHANCE?

We would like to conclude with a heartfelt message of peace:

We wish the entire world just and lasting peace, good health, balanced and thriving nature, sufficient prosperity and unlimited happiness in the coming years.

As Ataturk so ably put it for all of us: “Peace at home, Peace in the World.”

Coalition of Turkish-Americans, Turkish-Canadians, Turkish-Europeans, Turkish-Asians & Citizens of Turkey and the World Community for Truth, Fairness, Honesty and the Sons and Daughters of Turkish Survivors of Tragic “War Years” of 1912-1922

Signed: 8 December 2008
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References:

[1] History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey, Vol I & II, Stanford Shaw (Cambridge University Press, London, New York, Melbourne, 1976)

[2] The Story Behind Ambassador Morgenthau’s Story, Heath W. Lowry ( The Isis Press, Istanbul, Turkey, 1990)

[3] The Ottoman Peoples and the End of Empire, Justin McCarthy (Arnold, London, U.K., 2001

[4] Declaration Signed by 69 Prominent North American Academicians, New York Times and Washington Post, may 19, 1985 (for a copy: http://www.turkla.com/yazar.php?mid=338&yid=4

[5] Ermeniler: Sürgün ve Göç, Türk Tarih Kurumu (Ankara, Turkey, 2004)

[6] Houshamatyan of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, Centennial, Album-Atlas, Volume I, Epic Battles, 1890-1914 (The Next Day Color Printing, Inc., Glendale, CA, U.S.A., 2006)

[7] The Armenian Rebellion at Van, Justin McCarthy, Esat Arslan, Cemaletting Taskiran, Omer Turan (The University of Utah Press, Salt lake City, USA, 2006)

[8] The Armenian File, Kamuran Gurun (Rustem Bookshop, Mersin, Turkey, 1985)

[9] The Armenians in History and the Armenian Question, Esat Uras (Documentary Publications, Istanbul, Turkey, 1988)

[10] Free E-Book : "Genocide Of Truth" by Sukru Server Aya, Based On Neutral or Anti-Turkish Sources ( Istanbul Commerce University, Turkey, 2008) For a copy: http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2008/04/2429-new-e-book-genocide-of-truth-based.html

[11] “Pursuing the Just Cause of Their People”, Michael M. Gunter (Greenwood Press, New York, USA, 1986)

[12] “Ermenilerin Zorunlu Göçü, 1915-1917, Kemal Cicek (Turk tarih Kurumu, Ankara, Turkey, 2005)

[13] Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948: http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html

[14] Article 6, Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948: http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html

[15] Article 2, Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948: http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html

[16] Ergun KIRLIKOVALI, 2003, “It Was Not ‘Genocide’; It was - and still is – ‘Ethocide’ “, http://www.turkiye.net/bbasol/gorusler27.htm ;

[17] Ergun KIRLIKOVALI, 2003, “SOYKIRIM DEGIL, AHLAKKIRIM ”
( http://www.turkla.com/yazar.php?mid=323&yid=4 )

If you agree with the above sentiments,

then please sign your full name at

http://www.ozurdilemiyorum.net

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Is Turkey Ready to Apologize for 1915?
"My conscience does not accept the insensitivity showed to and the denial of the Great Catastrophe that the Ottoman Armenians were subjected to in 1915. I reject this injustice and for my share, I empathise with the feelings and pain of my Armenian brothers. I apologise to them."

This public statement, made by a group of Turkish intellectuals apologizing for the events of 1915, has created uproar in Turkey and has lead to a backlash within national circles there. The statement is the initiative of three scholars, Ahmet Insel, Baskin Oran and Cengiz Aktar, and a journalist, Ali Bayramoglu, Aytekin Yıldız, the coordinator of the Confrontation Association (Yüzleşme Derneği), pointed out that the Armenian community was already aware of the fact that there are many people in Turkey of conscience, and the important thing was not to declare what is already known. “It is a good starting point, but not enough. Firstly, what do they mean by ‘great disaster’? Let us name it; it is genocide. Secondly, the state has to apologize,” Yıldız stressed.

Historian Ayşe Hür said apologizing is the duty of those who were responsible for the act, or for those who share their arguments. “It seems that a very elite group discussed that petition, because I learnt about this petition from the media and I was surprised,” she said, and added, “I approach these types of events as a scientist, as a historian, not as a member of the Turkish nation. For me, all these events were the fault of Turkish nationalism flourishing at that time, and personally, I don’t identify with it, so I do not feel the need to apologize personally.”

She also pointed out that the petitioners are concentrating only on 1915; however, she says there were events after and before. “There is a state tradition which legitimizes all these events and prevents any discussion about them. Firstly, the state has to ensure a suitable atmosphere to discuss all these things; then it has to apologize on behalf of the perpetrators and for itself, because it has legitimized their actions through the years.”

Zeki Ertukay, National Movement Party (MHP) Deputy for Erzeroum, in an interview given to “Today’s Zaman”, charged the authors of the statement for “being in a state of hysteria”. According to Ertukay, it was not Armenians who suffered at the hands of the Ottoman Turks but rather Turks who were assaulted by Armenians. “I regard apologizing to the Armenians as an insult to the Turkish nation. People who call themselves intellectuals have not even been enlightened about their own history. A stain of shame like genocide has never taken place in the history of the Turkish nation. If there is somebody who needs to apologize, it is the Armenians and the Western states that provoked the Armenians against the Turks by promising them a state of their own.”

Behiç Çelik, a MHP deputy from Mersin, was equally enraged. "It is impossible to refer to these people as intellectuals. The so-called intellectuals trying to apologize to Armenians do not know the past. They do not know history. There has never been any genocide in the history of the Turkish nation. Apologizing even for the deportation is not acceptable, because deportations have been carried out by many nations, not just Turkey. The US relocated Native Americans; Russia deported the Kazaks and the Crimean Tatars. Their intellectuals never apologized to anybody."

Yusuf Halaçoğlu, a well-known ultranationalist who formerly headed the Turkish Historical Society (TTK), said the real target here was linked to Turkey's new foreign policy initiative, started in early September with President Abdullah Gül and Foreign Minister Ali Babacan visiting Yerevan for a soccer match between the national teams of Turkey and Armenia. "The aim here is to foment public opinion to be able to take that earlier initiative to the next level," Halaçoğlu said.

As reported in “Today’s Zaman” Halaçoğlu said only 22,000 people died before 1915, the year of the forced deportation. "Will they apologize for those, too? Or will the Armenians declare whom they cooperated with when the Ottoman Empire was fighting world powers? Are they going to publicly announce how many Armenians were part of the French and Russian armies at the time? Armenians, as a people who cooperated with the enemy in their own countries, have lost this war. This is the state of affairs as it stands today," he said.

Turkish historian Cemalettin Taşkıran was quoted in nationalist newspapers as saying, "This is the biggest betrayal that could be shown to our forefathers." Taşkıran said the campaign was set up to hurt the unity of the Turkish nation and to prepare the way for Turkey's eventual recognition of Armenian claims of genocide

“Today’s Zaman” writes that, The reaction to a petition initiated by a group of intellectuals… has shown yet again how courageous one must be to publicly announce his or her unorthodox opinions in Turkey, particularly if those opinions contradict the official ideology.”

During a recent visit to Armenia, Turkish reporter Osman Koker informed “Hetq” that the public apology was severely being criticized in Turkey, especially within nationalist circles. It is true that no criminal charges have yet been brought against the statement’s authors. Mr. Koker stated, “This is an attempt to request an apology but not for something they did. I applaud this initiative and I was one of the first to sign it.”

Cengiz Aktar, a professor of European Union studies at Istanbul's University of Bahcesehir stated, "Today many people in Turkey, with all good intentions, think that nothing happened to the Armenians," during an interview with the “Vatan” newspaper. "The official history says that this incident happened through secondary, not very important, and even mutual massacres … Unfortunately, the facts are very different." Aktar said the initiative was meant to allow Turks to offer a personal apology and to end an official silence. "We are not targeting anyone. It is an apology of individual nature. We want to tell our Armenian brothers and sisters we apologies for not being able to discuss this issue for almost 100 years.”

The campaign’s organizers state that they will first collect signatures of intellectuals and that afterwards they will set up a website to collect signatures from the public at large (press reports claim that the petition is now available on the internet). Several contending groups have already popped in the pages of Facebook where heated discussions on the subject are being held.

At the same time, a public letter signed by 300 intellectuals in Armenia has been addressed to Turkish President Abdullah Gul. The letter notes that modern Turkey bears “hereditary responsibility” for what they consider a “monumental crime against humanity” and calls on the Turkish President to finally recognize the Armenian Genocide.

Signatories to the Armenian letter include the writer Berj Zeytunyants; USSR National Artist Sos Sargsyan; Levon Ananyan, President of the Writers Union of Armenia; Karen Aghamyan, President of the Artists Union of Armenia; Aram Abrahamyan, Editor of “Aravot” and Harutyun Harutyunyan, Program Director of Armenian Public TV’s “Haylur” news agency.

“Your generation of Turkish leaders must accept the undeniable truth and recognize the fact of the Armenian Genocide. Recognition of the indisputable fact of the Armenian Genocide is first essential for the Turkish people. In addition, by doing so they will free themselves of this historical burden and stand in the company of other nations with a clear conscience. Only in that case can there be a sincere dialogue and a process of real reconciliation between our peoples,” the letter stresses.

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Comment*
Apologize should come from Turkish goverment (2008-12-16 )

so called modern Turky is able to commit a new genocide any time

The world community – above all in US/EU- knows almost nothing about Turkish fascism and nationalism, because all this is being propagandize as “modern or modern Turkey”. In some case the Mullah regime in Iran is more progressive than Turkish. It is just enough to study how many different nationalists are living in Iran, who have there own “ethnic areas” or provenances What would happened to all these ethnic groups in Iran or other Islamic/Arabic countries if there regimes would take Criminal Turkey as an example?! Western politcasn, who are trying to present Turkey as a example for other Islamic countries acting NOT in a responsible way!

Should other countries like Iran fallow the example of Turkey and use genocide and start a "homogenization policy" ?

So called modern Turkey made still in 70´s and 80´plans to “re-locate” Kurds to different areas (eg. Near Trabzon etc). Armenians had there Genocide behind but if so called modern Turkey had a chance (in a new big war) would not hesitate to implement the same genocide against Kurds!

Armenians should make differences between ordinary Turks and Turkish state and Turkish nationalist groups, who are behind Turkish denial policy.

If Ataturk would come out of his grave today the possibility that he would choose Turkish women wearing a chador is higher but do not expect Turkish government, which was and is a collation of fascists, racist, ultra-nationalist to change its denial policy- expects using a different rhetoric or different denial strategy for a while for misleading the world community!

Turkish government may be for such a step – to accept the truth on Armenian Genocide- in 90 years or if US distraction recognize this crime, there are still a lot of brain washed ambassadors and ex ambassadors and other Turkish politicians and academicians who are convince “Turkish being a chosen people is unable to commit any crime and injustice” this list includes corrupt ,racist , paid lobbyist and academicians in western countries, the actions of such groups is being orchestrated by well organized gangs within Turkish government/state

How about Gül and Erdogan?
Politicians like Gül or Erdogan would had been offer any support to Azeri President Abülfaz Elçibay who attached Karabakh in 1992. Armenians shouldn’t forget comments made by people like Gül in 90´s and till today. For politicians like Gül, deported and en mass killed men, women, children were just “terrorists” and beside this according to President Gül. Ottoman Turkey did pay for the transport cost of “deported Armenians, Ottoman government paid for train cost etc”

What can Armenians expect from such politicians, academicians who one should regard them as “racist” or people with “sadistic body of thought”!?

No To Turkish Racism (2008-12-15 20:49)
TO: " tragic unsuccessful independence war NOT a genocide" what you want to say is : " only Turks like Talaat Pasha are allow to decide which nation should live in "Anatolia" or which nation has the right to exist at all" The problem of people like you is “how to size territories and keep them” do not forget: "Anatolia is just- and will remain - for you an as “adopted home land” but it will remain the ancient homeland of Armenians, this simple fact make you worry otherwise people like you wouldn´t try the simple historic facts like a babba/child !

No To Turkish Racism (2008-12-15 )
like Talaat Pasha are allow to decide which nation should live in "Anatolia" or which nation has the right to exist at all" The problem of people like you is “how to size territories and keep them” do not forget: "Anatolia is just- and will remain - for you an as “adopted home land” but it will remain the ancient homeland of Armenians, this simple fact make you worry otherwise people like you wouldn´t try deny the simple historic facts like a babbay/child

a tragic unsuccessful independence war NOT a genocide (2008-12-15 )
Armenian story is a tragic unsuccessful independence war. It is not a genocide for 4 reasons. 1) Before 1915, Armenian groups start revolts/kill many Ottomans for ethnic cleansing to carve out an independent Armenia 2) As documented in the archives, to deal with this situation, Ottomans make a deportation decision (not a genocide) to move the Armenians from the eastern Anatolia to the south. 3) If it would be genocide, if Ottomans would systematically destroy Armenians throughout the country, they did not, except for the problematic Armenians (collaborating with the enemy to betray and attack their own country at the time) in the east, it seems others were not touched or deported. 4) Moreover, there were trials right after the WWI by English and Armenians to try Ottomans. After months of search English and Armenian officials concluded that there was no evidence of any genocide and released all Ottoman officials. Case Closed.

For something to be called a “genocide” it needs be fit into the definition. This case does not.

Sorry but Let the historians decide about the history (2008-12-15 )
I feel sorry for all the people including Armenians and Turks who died during WWI, but why to make a tragedy more than what it is. Armenians should be encouraged to accept the offer of Turkey to establish joint committees of historians perhaps with the involvement of historians from other nations to review past data and make a scientific conclusion.

For years Armenians have been using money and votes to buy out politicians in many countries and have been trying to pass laws to make the events as genocide artificially. In countries where they have big minorities unfortunately they have been successful. For example in France, you cannot deny this so called “genocide” otherwise you will be prisoned and will need to pay a hefty monetary penalty. What a shame on French people and France, which should be a country of freedom of speech. Politicians should not rewrite history. Let the historians decide about the history using facts and science.

Let us be honest (2008-12-15 )
these are couragous steps and are welcomed ! but let us be honest!

Armenians and non Turkish minorities in Turkey have to deal with Kemalism which is nothing but racism and a strong Turkish Islamo fascist ideology which is being controlled by Turkish nationalist and ultra- nationalist group like MHP!

Where Turkish nationalist – “Itihad and Union” as rulers of Ottoman Turkey ready to accept the international reform plans for Western Armenia (“Armenian Velijats of Ottoman Turkey” in 1908 and 1914 !?

Didn’t so called progressive Turks promised reforms and security in 1908 !? How could Armenians trust such a nation and the elite of such a criminal government as Turkish!
Continues

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Turkish Thinkers' Armenia Apology, By Sarah Rainsford, BBC News, Istanbul
An internet petition has been launched in Turkey, apologising for the "great catastrophe of 1915" when hundreds of thousands of Ottoman Armenians died.

Armenians and many international historians describe as "genocide" the massacres and deaths during a forced deportation from eastern Turkey.

Turkey firmly denies that, saying those killed were just victims of war.

The petition - the first of its kind - was initiated by prominent Turkish academics and newspaper columnists.

They say they want to challenge the official denial and provoke discussion in Turkish society about what happened.

The petition is entitled "I apologise", and a short statement at the top rejects what it calls the ignorance and denial in Turkey of what the Ottoman Armenians suffered in 1915.

It then apologises for the pain that was caused.

It is a bold and original step in a country where writer Hrant Dink was killed just last year for openly saying that the events of 1915 were genocide.

Sparking discussion

Nationalist politicians have condemned the move as an insult to the Turkish nation, and the organisers have received abusive emails.

Turkey admits that many Armenians were killed but it denies any genocide, saying the deaths happened during widespread fighting in World War I.

The petition does not call on the state to apologise for what happened and it deliberately avoids the highly controversial definition of genocide.

But the Turkish academic who dreamed up the idea says he hopes it will spark a proper discussion of what happened and promote empathy for what the Armenians suffered.

Cengiz Aktar called it the responsibility of all Turks to think and talk openly about how, and why, the Armenian people disappeared from a land they inhabited for 4,000 years.

The petition's authors say they have received many encouraging comments.

In the first few hours after the petition was launched, more than 1,000 people had signed their names beneath it.

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Turks' Apology for Armenian Genocide: Good First Step, but not Good Enough by By Harut Sassounian, Publisher, The California Courier

The Armenian Genocide issue has been attracting ever-growing attention despite the Turkish government's persistent attempts to suppress its discussion at home and recognition abroad.

During the past week, two public appeals were issued on the Armenian Genocide -- one by Turkish intellectuals and the other by prominent individuals in Armenia.

The Turkish appeal was initiated by scholars Ahmet Insel, Baskin Oran, and Cengiz Aktar, and journalist Ali Bayramoglu. Risking death threats by Turkish extremists and possible legal action, they issued a personal apology for "the Great Catastrophe that the Ottoman Armenians were subjected to in 1915." On December 15, they set up an Internet site titled "We Apologize"

(www.ozurdiliyoruz.com) which quickly attracted the signatures of more than3,000 Turks. The Turkish petition stated: "My conscience does not accept the insensitivity showed to and the denial of the Great Catastrophe that the Ottoman Armenians were subjected to in 1915. I reject this injustice and for my share, I empathize with the feelings and pain of my Armenian brothers. I apologize to them."

This apology was not only criticized by Turkish denialists, but also by some Turks who felt the statement had not gone far enough. Aytekin Yildiz, Coordinator of the Confrontation Association, stated: "It is a good starting point, but not enough. Firstly, what do they mean by 'Great Catastrophe'? Let's name it. It is genocide. Secondly, the state has to apologize." Historian Ayse Hur said that Turkey "has to apologize on behalf of the perpetrators and for itself, because it has legitimized their actions through the years." Another prominent Turkish intellectual, who wished to remain anonymous for obvious reasons, told Zaman newspaper that the Turkish state, rather than individuals, must do the apologizing.

Turkish extremists, on the other hand, strongly condemned the signatories of the apology for "betraying" the Turkish nation. Historian Cemalettin Taskiran was quoted as stating: "This is the biggest betrayal that could be shown to our forefathers=80¦. The campaign was set up to hurt the unity of the Turkish nation and to prepare the way for Turkey's eventual recognition of Armenianclaims of genocide." Several Parliament Members representing MHP, a radical Turkish political party, accused the signatories of "insulting" Turkey. More seriously, 60 retired Turkish diplomats set up their own counter-website, describing the "apology" campaign as "unfair, wrong and unfavorable for the national interests."

The Turkish intellectuals' apology generated both positive and negative reactions on Armenian websites. Some Armenians welcomed the apology as a good first step, while others expressed concern that Turks would try to cover uptheir responsibility for the Genocide by simply apologizing. Armenian critics pointed out several shortcomings in the Turkish statement: First, the apology avoided the term Armenian Genocide by referring to it as the "Great Catastrophe." Second, it alluded to the year 1915 only, rather than 1915-1923. Third, the apology was issued by individual Turks rather than the Turkish state. Even if the apology emanated from Turkish officials, it could not be viewed as a substitute for reparations and restitution.

This statement, however, serves the useful purpose of educating the Turkish public that has been kept in the dark so long about the Armenian Genocide. Rather than an Armenian-Turkish historical commission, what is needed is a purely Turkish commission that would provide a forum for Turks to discuss and discover the mass crimes of their forefathers.

By coincidence, around the time of the Turkish appeal, nearly 300 prominent individuals from Armenia issued an open letter to Pres. Abdullah Gul asking him to take the bold step of recognizing the Armenian Genocide. The Armenian appeal, like its Turkish counterpart, does not go far enough. Rather than recognition, the Armenian signatories should have sought justice for the crimes committed against the Armenian nation.

Nonetheless, the Armenian letter accomplishes several useful objectives: First, it debunks the oft-repeated Turkish lie that the genocide issue is raised only by "radical Diaspora Armenians" rather than residents of Armenia. Second, it strengthens the hand of Pres. Serzh Sargsyan in his discussions with Turkish officials to show to them how strongly Armenians feel about the Genocide. Third, even though the letter is addressed to the Turkish President, it also sends an indirect message to Pres. Sargsyan not to accept normalization of relations with Ankara, without the latter's recognition of the Armenian Genocide.

Despite their shortcomings, these two appeals may play a significant role in future decision-making by the Obama administration. It is hoped that when Turkey's lobbyists call on the White House to block U.S. acknowledgment of the Armenian Genocide, Pres. Obama would reject their request and hear the voices of thousands of Armenian and Turkish signatories who support reconciliation based on truth and justice.

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Ex-Turkish Envoys Slam Campaign Apologizing To Armenians
Deniz Bölükbaşı claims that in Turkey there is an Armenian lobby and a campaign of apology forms a part of their objectives.

A group of retired Turkish ambassadors signed a declaration on Monday urging intellectuals Baskın Oran, Ahmet İnsel and Ali Bayramoğlu, who had recently launched a campaign to apologize for the Ottoman killings of Armenians in 1915, “not to be a part of an insidious plan against Turkish national interests.”

Recently, some Turkish intellectuals began to collect signatures for a statement that contained a personal apology for the events of 1915, which the Armenian claims of genocide are based on.

“My conscience does not accept the insensitivity showed to and the denial of the Great Catastrophe that Ottoman Armenians were subjected to in 1915. I reject this injustice and for my part, I empathize with the feelings and pain of my Armenian brothers. I apologize to them,” the intellectuals’ statement said.

But the group of retired diplomats, which includes former Foreign Ministry undersecretaries Korkmaz Haktanır, Şükrü Elekdağ and Onur Öymen, in a counter-declaration stressed that the move was a “disrespectful act toward Turkish history and its martyrs.”

“Such a wrong and unilateral initiative is disrespectful to our history and also to our people who lost their lives in violent terrorist attacks during the history of the republic and during the last years of the Ottoman Empire,” the declaration stated.

The diplomats’ declaration made a point of mentioning the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia (ASALA) in which 70 people, including five ambassadors, four consul generals and 34 public workers, lost their lives and 574 people were wounded.

It further claimed that “concessions such as unilateral apologies” do not serve the aim of improving relations between Armenia and Turkey.

“If the aim is to improve relations between Turkey and Armenia and come closer, the proper way to do this is not to make concessions such as unilateral apologies, but to mutually recognize borders and territorial integrity and it will be inevitable that we will share the pain that both sides suffered during history,” the declaration claimed, and added, “Otherwise unilateral acts like apologizing will be wrong, against the facts of history and will have grave consequences.”

The diplomats underlined that the forced immigration of Armenians in 1915 had “bitter results” under war conditions, “but the pain of the Turks were no less than that of the Armenians due to the Armenian insurgency and terrorism,” the diplomats claimed.

“First of all, Armenians who have killed innocent Turkish diplomats, public servants and their families in the recent past should apologize to the Turkish nation. These killers are still alive and unpunished as they have been protected by Armenia and some other countries,” the declaration noted.

The diplomats also claimed that the apology was the second phase of a plan, the first phase of which was to influence world opinion with terrorist attacks. They claimed that they are aware of the third phase of plan, which is to demand compensation and make territorial claims.

The other diplomats who signed the declaration include former Foreign Ministry spokesmen Necati Utkan and Ömer Akbel. It was also signed by former Ambassadors Akın Alp Tuna, Ertuğrul Çırağan, Onur Öymen, Candan Azer and Gün Gür, together with some others.

The retired Ambassadors are supported by Oktay Vural, the deputy chairman of the parliamentary group of the Nationalist Movement Party (MHP), who said the retired ambassadors had done the right thing but interestingly the Foreign Ministry had kept quiet.

Former ambassador and now-MHP deputy Deniz Bölükbaşı claimed that in Turkey there is an Armenian lobby and a campaign of apology forms a part of their objectives.

“Who is apologizing for who? If there is anyone who should apologize, it should be the intellectuals and Armenians. They should apologize to the thousands of Anatolian people who suffered the Armenian atrocities. Are these intellectuals apologizing to the Armenian terrorists who killed Turkish diplomats and are still living in Armenia?” Bölükbaşı asked.

17 December 2008, AYŞE KARABAT ANKARA Zaman

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Declaration Of Retired Turkish Ambassadors With Regard To The “Apology To The Armenians” Campaign
We have been following with concern, the news that a new campaign, lead by a few academicians and journalists, is launched to “apologize to the Armenians”. With the belief that such a campaign will be inaccurate, unfair, and harmful to Turkish national interests, we present our views for the information of the public.

Such an unrighteous and unilateral initiative, will mean disrespect to history and betrayal to our people who have lost their lives in the hands of terrorist organizations during the final periods of the Ottoman Empire and the history of our Republic. Although the Armenian Tereset (temporary resettlement) of 1915 have caused trenchant results under circumstances of war, the loss and pain of the Turkish people from the Armenian rebellions and terrorist acts are not any less. The fact that Armenian terrorists, as a result of planned and continuous provocations of the foreign powers, have, from the second half of the 19th century and subsequently during the First World War and the beginning of the War of Independence, allied themselves with the occupying forces and committed mass exterminations of our people of Anatolia is clearly seen from national and international sources.

Also during the history of our Republic, the terrorist acts that were resurrected in 1973 and carried out by the “ASALA” and “Justice Commandoes” until 1986, have caused the death of 70 Turks and injury of another 574, among whom were included 5 Ambassadors, 4 Consuls-General, 34 civil servants and their family members.

On the other hand, almost one-fourth of the territory of Azerbaijan have been occupied by Armenia since the end of the last century and the problem of its population of one million, sentenced to live in exile in their own land, still awaits a solution.

Would those, who dare such a crippled attempt as “apology to the Armenians” also consider an apology to our own people who have been victims of Armenian terror throughout history?

Instead of organizing initiatives to apologize, recognizing the Armenian allegations at face value, an apology to the Turkish Nation from the Armenians, who have in the recent history ruthlessly massacred innocent Turkish diplomats, officials and their family members should be addressed. These murderers are still walking the earth and remain unpunished thanks to the protection granted to them by Armenia and some other countries.

We, during years of our service abroad, have suffered through the horrors of Armenian terror to its full brutality. We have seen after each act of Armenian terror, thanks to the agenda created by terror, the international community fooled deeper by the crooked, one-sided reflection of Armenian allegations. Today, terrorism has accomplished its objective.

We know that the second stage of the plan includes an apology and after that, territorial and compensational demands. Our sincere wish is that, after all the losses, suffering and injustice that befell us, our own people will stand up to being used as mere instruments of such an insidious and deliberate misrepresentation.

If today, a period of rapprochement and development of good neighborly relations are desired, it should be kept in mind that, the road to this does not pass through our concessions such as one-sided, ill-informed, and ill-advised apologies but through the recognition of common borders and territorial integrity, and if absolutely necessary, MUTUAL acknowledgement of each other’s pains throughout history. Otherwise, such a behavior of “one-sided apology” will be unrighteous and groundless; it will distort the realities of history and will cause grave consequences to Turkish national interests.

Presented respectfully to the public, with the hope and the wish that our people will remain alert in this very serious and already much abused issue.

December 2008

Kindly Forwarded by Sukru Server Aya

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The Campaign To Apologize To The Armenians Starts In The Internet
The campaign to apologize to the Armenians for the insensitivity shown to and the denial of the “Great Catastrophe” has been taken to the internet. The number of the signatures has already risen to 2500.

Bia news center - İstanbul, 15-12-2008

The campaign to apologize to the Armenians for the insensitivity shown to and the denial of the “Great Catastrophe” has already been launched in the internet.

The campaign was organized with the support of the 200 academicians, journalists, jurists and activists and the text of the campaign says the following:

“My conscience does not accept the insensitivity shown to and the denial of the ‘Great Catastrophe’ that the Ottoman Armenians were subjected to in 1915. I reject this injustice and for my share, I empathize with the feelings and pain of my Armenian brothers, I apologize to them.”

The signatories have become 6512

Among the people who joined the campaign are Adnan Ekşigil, Ahmet Çakmak, Ahmet Çiğdem, Ahmet Kuyaş, Ali Nesin, Oral Çalışlar, Ali Arif Cangı, Perihan Mağden, Alper Görmüş, Arzu Başaran, Asaf Savaş Akat, Lale Mansur, Muhsin Kızılkaya, Neşe Düzel, Aydın Engin, Aylin Aslım, Ayşe Önal, Barış Pirhasan, Filiz Koçali, Cem Mansur, Deniz Türkali, Derya Alabora, Ergin Cinmen, İbrahim Kaboğlu, Şebnem Korur Fincancı, Kemal Göktaş, Kezban Hatemi, Tarhan Erdem, Koray Çalışkan, Yavuz Bingöl, Koray Düzgören gib adlar da bulunuyor.(EÖ/TB)

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Anahit Shirinyan December 15, 2008

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A Campaign Of Apology, Commentary: Ömer Engin Lütem, 15 December 2008, ERAREN

Lately a group of four Turkish intellectuals publicized a declaration stating that their conscience do not acquiesce in the indifference towards the ‘‘Great Disaster’’ the Ottoman Armenians had been exposed to and the denial thereof, that they reject this injustice; and they offered apologies to Armenians on their own account.

According to the press news, this declaration will first be submitted to the signature of some intellectuals and/or well-known persons and then will presumably be opened to the signing of the general public over the internet with a year long campaign.

A point needs to be clarified before embarking on the essence of the subject. The term ‘‘Great Disaster’’ mentioned in the declaration is the Turkish translation of the ‘‘Metz Yegern’’ used in the Armenian language for ‘‘ genocide’’ as an attribute to the events of the 1915. Those who drafted the declaration have somehow avoided at this stage using the word ‘‘genocide ’’ and chose a synonym from the Armenian language. This may especially be due to the negative reactions the word genocide has created in Turkey. This sly approach was first exercised in 2001 by Pope Jean-Pierre II and he uttered the word Metz Yegern rather than genocide to alleviate the criticisms of Turkey.

When we come to the essence of the issue; for persons to offer apologies, they should have made a move that harmed or at least injured other individuals or communities in the first place. When one looks at the question from this angle, it will be seen that no living individual today is responsible for the relocation of Armenians for more than a century have elapsed ever since. One may think that they are apologizing on behalf of their grand fathers. Yet, in this case, their own grand fathers should have had responsibility related with the relocation, and this is in fact a very rare case. We personally do not presume that the forefathers of the four individuals who drafted the said declaration have any involvement in such an affair. However, it may be that among their grand fathers there were those killed by the Armenian gangs or, if they were migrants of Balkan origin, then they may have been killed with Bulgarian, Greek or Serbian bullets. On the other hand, even if the forefathers had responsibility as regards relocation, we should point out that the guilt and all types of responsibility are not hereditary, that no one can be judged based on his/her forefather’s guilt as responsible and is therefore not required to apologize, and that it will not have any judicial consequences even if he/she does so.

One of the eye-catching points in the declaration is the allegation that the disasters which the Armenians experienced have been dealt with indifference. In reality, it is a fact that in Turkey not only the public at large but also the intellectual circles are not well informed on the recent history of the country. This is true as regards disasters experienced by the Turks as much as by the Armenians. It is witnessed with pleasure that this situation caused by an inadequate education policy is changing in recent times especially with the contribution of research conducted in relation with issues pertaining to the Armenian case.

When it comes to the allegation that the declaration what the Armenians had experienced are being denied in Turkey, Turkey’s reaction in this context is very normal since the Armenians put forward the genocide charge not only against the Ottoman Empire but also against the Turkey of our day in the form of an accusation and because it is evident that at the base of these allegations lies some claims concerning compensation and territories to be ceded to Armenia. Hence a very great majority of the Turkish people definitely refuse the allegations of genocide and, on this basis, the Turkish policy follows the same line. The fact that not a single person endorses the Armenian allegations in the Turkish Parliament where many political tendencies and movements widely contrasting one another exist, is a feature that needs to be considered both by the Armenians and the foreign circles which support them.

Bringing to an end that the events of 1915 determine the Turkish-Armenian relations and prevent their development, it’s necessary to investigate those events with a scientific approach freed from feelings of rancor, hatred and vengeance and utopian calculations of political interest. In this context, accepting Turkey’s proposal to establish a Joint Commission of Historians should be considered as a necessary first step.

When we try to search why the need aroused to publicise the said declaration, we come across the authors’ explanations that it was purely a personal initiative. In other words, they claim to have acted with humanistic thoughts and, especially, with feelings of justice. If this is true, then why are they not interested in the immense tragedies lived in the recent history by the people whom they are also members of, why don’t they mention those millions chased from the lands lost by the Ottoman Empire starting from the 19th century, most of whom killed or have taken refuge in Thrace or Anatolia in extremely miserable conditions, and, why don’t they demand apologies from those who are responsible of this situation, starting from the Armenians. The atrocities and persecutions exacted on the Turks and other Moslem peoples during the Balkan Wars, pre- and post World War I periods, and Turkish Independence War have especially been well documented. On the other hand, murders of the Turkish diplomats committed by Armenians until twenty years ago solely for they represented their country abroad should also be considered within the same framework. Making no mention to these murders contributes to a deliberate policy implemented to efface them from the collective memory of the mankind.

In our opinion, the most negative aspect of this declaration is that it prefers the sorrows of the Armenians to those of the Turks and by so doing exibits a fundamentally biased and unjust attitude towards Turkey and the Turks.

Although it is alleged that this declaration was a personal initiative, the expressed intention to demand the signatures of the others and a year long campaign envisaged for that end, is a proof of the existence of a political movement rather than a personal initiative, aiming at getting as many Turks as possible to accept that an Armenian genocide had taken place. It is quite obvious that the project will start with the ‘‘apology’’ believed to impress a large number of persons due to its emotional aspect, in case people embrace the apology then will come the stage of recognizing or accepting genocide; once this is accomplished, payment of a compensation to Armenians will take its place in the agenda followed by the ultimate phase of ceding a certain size of land to Armenia in Eastern Anatolia.

The question of why this campaign was started now also deserves particular attention. We think the main reason is the Turkish public opinion’s welcoming attitude towards the “détente” process initiated by President Gül’s visit to Erivan and the desire to find urgent solutions to problems with Armenia and the Armenians which became more marked in the aftermath of the visit. This situation might have led those who prepared the declaration to think the Turkish public opinion was psychologically ready for starting a stage by stage process of endorsing the Armenian allegations. On this occasion, we need to remember that some USA an EU circles have suggested since the year 2000 that ‘‘the Turks should face up to their history’’, that they started certain initiatives and supported some persons and organizations within this framework. The aim is to distance the Turks from nationalist attitudes and behaviors by confronting their history, in other words, by accepting the accusations directed at them, and as a result, to acquiesce in ideas and proposals coming from those circles without much resistance. In short, the Turks’ being subjected to a kind of political reeducation is on the agenda. It would be appropriate to conceive the ‘‘apology campaign’’ as an element of this ‘‘reeducation”.

Diaspora and the Armenian press have mentioned this declaration in news texts but did not make any noteworthy comments in this connection. This may be due to the fact that the initiative is quite new and its results are not yet predictable along with the apology itself being quite a low level initiative insufficient to meet the Armenian demands. As a matter of fact, several days after the publishing of the declaration 300 intellectuals in Armenia sent an open letter to President Gül stating that as long as Turkey does not accept the ‘‘reality of Armenian genocide’’, a sincere dialog and a genuine reconciliation between the two nations will not be possible.

Neither any reaction came from the official hierarchy of Armenia. For Armenia has on many occasions announced that It did not demand Turkey’s acceptance of genocide allegations as a prerequisite to establish relations, it is understood that the apology is not a worthy enough factor deserving special attention. On the other hand, at serious negotiations conducted on a diplomatic level, such sentimentalities as ‘‘apology’’ are quite rare.

When we to evaluate the probable results of the declaration, we must say that every attempt proposing that the Turks accuse themselves hearten the militant Armenians and cause them to assume a more irreconcilable position. This will create trouble first of all for the present Armenian Government that conducts negotiations with Turkey and the fear of making compromise could lead these negotiations to a stalemate.

On the other hand, emergence of some intellectuals in Turkey who think just like the Armenians will give the impression to those in the Obama team who support accepting genocide that Turkey will not show a harsh reaction in case a decision passes through the American Congress. The same is valid for the draft resolutions pending at the parliaments of some other countries. Yet the experience shows that the pressures applied on Turkey yields results contrary to expectations and cause Turkey to harden its stance. In that case, the endeavors to construct a normal relationship between Turkey and Armenia may as well be postponed to an unknown date.

To sum up, though they may look innocent at first glance, the said declaration and the planned campaign have a potential to create many negative developments.

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