2444) Sukru Aya's Reply To Book Review by Ara Baliozian . . .

Reply To Book Review
Part – I
The reader seems to have read all of the 700 pages, more than 1500 verbatim excerpts in less than 2 weeks and could write his book review based “NOT ON THE EXCERPTS” themselves, but “my opinions”- presumed by him.

I thank for the compliment of “mammoth compilation of quotations and documents” but reject the annexation of the word “polemics” because I left the appreciation and judgment to the reader’s choice. I would prefer criticism for the few notes and explanations “I did write” and not for what others wrote or said! The sources are all promptly given and the responsibility lies with those who wrote them, and not me! This research was made in person, trying to get behind this historic incident, which, in my personal idea, is a huge distortion of a human brutality, as a result of opposing aspirations. It is a reaction to the shallow studies made by several scholars. This research was not delegated on to me; I could have been an Eskimo, or Tanzanian or . . else, but I do happen to have a Turkish ID, which makes the difference to the reader and not to me. Hence, the essence is to be “objective and digestive for whatever we read” and does not give us the right to be “selective on what we read”, nor “accepting everything that has been written”, as the only truth! It is because of this concern and desire of neutrality that, certain events were quoted from diverse sources, leaving judgment to the reader!

I could not understand why my birth year is worth mentioning, unless I should expect some flowers on my birth date. Am I too old, too young, impaired, what?

The date 24th April 1915 is important for Armenian diaspora only; it has no historic significance because:

• a- Armenian Revolutionary Volunteers had taken Kars in mid April 1915! 80.000 Moslems died; only 1.500 was left alive. This conquest is evidenced also by photo from Pastirmadjian’s book. (my book’s page 529)


• b- It is known that Enver Pasha gave a verbal warning to Istanbul Patriarch after the Van conquest, to quiet down, or else! This was taken as a bluff! On April 20th (see annex) the Military Order signed by General Bronsart followed, asking “immediate evacuation of War zones”. Since the Patriarchate had not assured cooperation, the same evening 235 notable persons, (some ringleaders or persons believed to be behind the revolution) were arrested! According to this posting # 2441 and speech of Ara Sarafian, they were taken by train to Ayas near Ankara (70) and (150) sent to Cankiri by carts, where they were set free inside the city, reporting to the police in the evening. Six weeks later, some 20 of them came back to Istanbul (may be Protestants and Catholics). None of the 235 was condemned to death! Innocents could have been rounded up alongside guilty ones; it happens! Wet wood burns alongside the dry wood… Worse dramas happen in peacetime!


• c- If the critic indeed had read my book, he should have noticed the excerpt ref. #5, on page 268, with my explicatory note on page 298 which referred to the arrest of the 235 persons. The day is significant, just because it was on the eve of Dardanelle landing by Anzacs on 25th April.


• d- Regarding alleged 1.5 million victims, it becomes clear that the reader has not seen Chapter 15, page 303, line (l) report of French-Armenian land distribution Committee dated March 1st 1914, showing total Armenian population as 1.280.000 and only 542.421 in East Anatolia. Those who disagree may object to those who prepared this report “just before two inspectors arrived in May 1914 for two autonomous areas”!


• e- Readers can also refer to the joint US Congress/Senate report # 192, dated 22.4.1922, and inquire how come that those who prepared this audited monumental report, declared that a total of 1.414.000 Armenians were alive on Dec. 31, 1921! (# 2335 on this free library)


• f- I am not any judge to decide about the responsibility of bilateral crimes. Chapter 29, includes various solid newspapers as evidence. As regards who killed first or more (like if the hen or egg) on page 652, the Dutch Newspaper of 25.5.1920 gives a good idea as regards how and why reciprocal brutalities happened. The Swedish paper of 23.4.1917 with the article of Swedish Officer Pravitz (page 127) and German paper on page 657, as well as a sack of U.S. newspapers gives quite an idea, and readers are independent to decide the way they see and evaluate. I do not remember any statement of mine claiming that the Ottoman State cannot be held responsible for the crimes, when they were fighting a war of “life or death” on three fronts, with Armenian revolts and 5th column activities in the rear! Plenty photos can be seen in Pastirmadjian and other books. Remembering that the Americans of Japanese ethnicity were interned in prison camps or that the Jews were rounded up for death when they had not revolted, or that the Americans took no war prisoners in Okinawa but killed all, the decision of “relocation for military needs” is the most lenient measure that was possible. This of course, does not release the State from the responsibility of proper protection or feeding (when their 80.000 soldiers had just perished at Sarikamish because of the resistance of Armenian volunteers and lack of food and clothing). The Moslem deaths much in excess, do not originate from my comments, but what was reported at that time! One pyramidal truth is that the Dashnakist-Hunchakist Armenians from Russia, instigated REVOLTS all over Anatolia, collaborated in full with the enemies (Russians, French, British) were in actual internal war as traitors to their own country, who had provided best existing opportunities in the past 600 years! Armenian diaspora have hundreds of books on their heroism with photos, but now forget them all!


• g- Regarding failing reporting properties: I can be responsible only for the truth of what I saw and quoted! Further responsibility belongs to the genuine author or source! I am no advocate of the Turkish State or any office or authority!. No one delegated any such authority or duty, or paid me one cent or promised to print my work! Unfortunately the naivety of most Turkish correspondents and officials continues. There are very few aware of my compilation or updated like Turkish Armenians! Although there is no doubt that many emigrants sold their properties at low prices and buyers used day’s advantage , we also have evidence (Pastirmadjian’s book) that the bundles packed and stored in the Erzerum Cathedral were untouched and protected, until the Russian Army occupied the city and General Kalendine was the first to loot the carpets and properties. Needless to guess, that every one robbed the other party for whatever they could get! I have quoted some sections relative to the lootings of Kurds and Turks and Armenians vice versa! However, the Ottomans court martial more than 1670 persons, hanged 67 found guilty, and punished the rest, other than some 400 found innocent. Whether justice could be done in full, is questionable but at least the leaders did not endorse such banditry. However, there is not even one Armenian ever found guilty by any Armenian authority and terrorist criminals are honored with medals. Worse cases persist even in our modern days! Yet, the tunes whistled by the humpbates, “to kill, loot and walk freely over the mountains” is unique! In the excerpts I quoted, there are plenty references to Turkish butchery, but also with Armenians’ as well, to exceed in most cases! I have not portrayed Turks as angels; the same way the Armenian diaspora portrays their heroes, to be “angels but with rifles, daggers and ammunition” (replacing wings) from head to teeth! Plenty photos exist in Pastirmadjian’s book plus other examples before the war started. For more photos, please refer to “The History of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation Dashnaktsutiun 1890-1924” ISBN 88-85822-11-8 in the E-library. (Abandoned land and real estate properties were promptly returned to all applicants, who applied within two years after the Lausanne Treaty!)

Regarding the drama examples given in the last paragraph, the critic can be sure that similar ones and may be much more in excess, exist in the past of the Moslem families in the area, but still there are few examples of humanity on both sides. Since we do not have the concept of “blood purity” (which was the unfortunate words of Hrant Dink) we really do not care, who was the grandfather or mother, or relative. I have “no record that the Sultans married any Turkish women”, since their beautiful wives were mostly, later converts. Rumors are that even Abdulhamid had some Armenian blood in his past! Turkish community never had any ambitions on purity of race or ethnicity. This life-understanding common with most Turks, differs with many other nations claiming to be of pure Arian or other noble races. Inter-family marriages, give unfortunate results. May be we should be thankful for being bastards in some way or another. I absolutely agree with the statement about jackals and hyenas, and I will be pleased if the critic outlines “my statement” which concluded him to such a slander about my evaluation, amidst my efforts to show that none of us is angels and this NONSENSE BETTER STOPS!

Regarding Arnold Toynbee, there are nearly 30 references of this important writer, whose assignment was to write propaganda book blaming the enemy, which he did perfectly. Yet found documentation shows that he did not enjoy the lack of sources of the documents he had to use. He later admitted that all was “war propaganda”. If anything that I quoted from Toynbee is false, it better be shown and proven. Otherwise, we all can read!.

Let me conclude this section with the last sentence of the study of Edward J. Erickson (T-Armenians # 2438) in which he concluded: “However, a case can be made that the Ottomans judged the Armenians to be a great threat to the 3rd and 4th Armies and that the genuine intelligence and security concerns drove that decision. It may be also stated that the Ottoman reaction was escalatory and responsive rather than premeditated and pre-planned. In this context the Ottoman relocation decision becomes more understandable as a military solution to a military problem. While political and ideological imperatives perhaps drove the decision equally, if not harder, these do not negate the fact that the Armenians were a great military danger”.

If this, does not suit the critic’s ideology, he can object the writer and claim that he is just “another denialist”!

I do not agree with critic’s remarks about our personal past, involving dramas and the “ease to blame others for the consequences”, be mishaps of war tragedies and in this particular case, there was considerable risk of some adventurous leaders, who “gambled with the lives of their own nation!” I am surprised to see that the critic, who is fully aware of the rotten part of the apple, fails to confess or admit these naked realities!

PART II
I think that the critic’s approach to the subject of “genocide” is much different from my approach: There is no doubt that some or most of the stories of grandmothers may have considerable essence of truth. On the other hand, the very same in worse excesses is true for the Moslems. Almost all mass graves opened show Moslem victims, some burned inside mosques, others stacked inside water wells with stones on top. International witnesses abstain from attending any mass-grave openings! These butcheries are confessed in the writings of Armenian historians. These are “all individual cases” of bilateral brutality, which I admit, but the critic claims that “ all Armenians were maiden angels”. This is not what the books or Pastirmadjian or other heroes have said or written! In order that any crime can be called “genocide” it must be premeditated, planned in advance and carried in all stages without any exceptions. (Even Mr. Erickson just endorsed my opinion!)

The critic goes out of the line of common sense, by labeling all of the sources I have used as “denialist”, a term, invented to excuse and smear all others who do not speak or write up to their imagination! Who are the persons deserved to be denialists? Cyrus Hamlin (the father of Armenians), Khatchaznuni (Prime Minister), Nassibian and Lalaian (Historian), Pastermadjian (war activist and hero), James Grabill (Protestant Missionary and expert on all Armenian Churches), Margaret McMillan (granddaughter of Lloyd George) or the original documents in archives? I shall appreciate to be quoted “where I accused all Armenians” of being intolerant of dissent? This research has been made because of my attraction to several Armenian friends I have, and I feel sorry for the critic that “puts words I never said or written” in my mouth. Frankly, such distortions reduce my advance confidence in the neutrality, “personality and objectivity of the critic as a human of sincerity and decency!”

Regarding Orhan Pamuk (a novelist who was rewarded after he advertised the Armenian view, which paved his way to the Nobel prize (thanks to Maureen Freely who translated his books in English, being the daughter of a prominent literature teacher at Bogazici University, Prof. John Freely, who authored ISBN-975-08-0255-1, two volumes of “A History of Robert College”). Whilst Mr. Pamuk’s literary fame is controversial in Turkey, plus his proficiency in English writing (which should have improved by now), there is no doubt that he did not read even one percent of the sources given in my book! His grasp of history, may equal his knowledge of medicine! Regarding Taner Akcam, who was a sentenced terrorist – communist fugitive from prison but found his way to Germany where he was taken under the wings of Tessa Savidis Hoffmann, he was later transferred to USA where he became his Master’s Voice Dadrian’s and the Zorian Institute to which he owes all. I cannot compare my ethics and independence with his writings as a “sociologist on historical subjects”, nor his obligations! So far he did not show a single document to confirm his scenarios. He is the pipe blower of the Genocide Fanfare! I am amazed that the critic shows these two turncoats as witness or testimony, to suit their paymasters! Regarding archives, I have quoted what others have written and said. I have not used thousands of Ottoman documents, not to be subject to such objections. Here again, the critic puts the words I have quoted as words I have spoken or written myself. I have not used Ottoman archival material, which the critic claims to be selected, doctored manipulated, and edited. These are serious accusations, and unless they are proven they become as empty as the Genocide Fanfare! I regret to experiment such baseless aggressiveness employed in arguments from a person I had a high admiration. I do not want to believe that I was mistaken so badly!

Regarding added slanders such as “Choir and Allawa akbar”, I am amazed that a person for which I had a high respect, found the necessity of smearing such religious tar on me, in spite of my several excerpts against faiths.

Anyone who walks in a Turkish bookstore can find a multitude of books, and some translations advocating the Genocide fanfare, and almost none for the opposite view. My book does not sell in any bookstore. When I will have the Turkish shorter version printed (if I can find the voluntary publisher), it will be one of the few in response to the Genocide fanfare played loud in Turkey. I kindly ask the critic to read this posting # 2441 about the panel presentation at Bilgi University and posting # 2442 giving the speech of Ara Sarafian, which I responded separately. These two postings already prove that the critic could not rid himself of “Armenianism” when commenting. I do not think that you can find “any other person” who has put so many years of strenuous research to discover the truth (within existing contexts) and prove the uselessness of this Genocide fanfare, which has become a belief within the Armenian community of diaspora, equal or stronger than Christ!

I was “hoping” that the critic Ara bey would understand the sincerity of mine, and contribute to normalization. I hope that at least one of the two Ara-s (better be two) will stop this stupid quarrel -like two pans, blaming each as regards which bottom is blacker-! If the critic would admit that, the Dashnakist Armenians were in open revolt and full cooperation with the enemy, this may help to understand, how and why the eggs were broken! I think that people of logic should stop blaming each other in person or nationality, ethnicity etc. and get over with “what has happened has happened” and look forward for the future, built on compassion instead of grudge and hatred.

The book has no aims of any polarization, other than laying down some facts as written by anti-Turkish or neutral observers, in reaction to landslides of propaganda and monuments, to convert a myth into a reality. Don’t I have the right to put down, opposite views and documentation? If they are fabricated, this must be declared and proven! This topic cannot be resolved unless both sides stand on facts, and not on scenarios!

PART III
In reply to the questions, which the critic concluded, I would have preferred that these were based on “my own words, in the introductions of each chapter or added to the reference notes”. Yet, since every reader has a point, I would reply the critic’s friendly questions, in the same spirit, thanking him again for his compliments of “magnum opus”, which I hope he will have more time to penetrate the pages, instead of hopscotch touching! My work is a compilation of thousands of broken (chinaware like) mosaic pieces. Each piece individually may not tell much, but when all put together within the frame of realities, logic and chronology, it becomes quite visible! My “own personal conclusion” is that: There was no cause, no premeditation, no plans, no time, no means, no clear dates, no places, no murder tools, no reliable eye witnesses (other than individual or reported cases), no documentation, no solid evidence, no legal procedure, no court, no defense, no verdict… but a gigantic conclusion about the criminality of a nation, based on UNPROVEN PRESUMPTIONS! Bilateral brutalities, treasons, fights, killings etc. are on individual or tribal bases, where responsibilities can be laid on too many persons! It was the “Armenian brutalities” which was pardoned in the Gumru Treaty (Dec.3,1920)

• 1- The first question is unique and patent of Armenian nationalism after 1965s. Until that time, there was no word of Genocide. The critic overlooks the reality that the short lived (Dashnakist) Armenian Republic was founded in May 1919 as an Ottoman Protectorate, and the legation sent to Istanbul to pay respects to Sultan Vahdettin, cabled back on Sept. 9th, compliments and good wishes! Why there was no word of genocide and why did the young Armenian Government searched for the protection of the Ottoman Empire, which had sent the Hamidiye troops some 20-30 years ago to put down the sporadic revolts and tribal wars? The Turkish State Archives, after the Oct.30,1918 Mudros Treaty, were placed by British under the charge of Armenian experts who combed every paper trying to find evidence to charge the 144 Ottoman dignitaries, taken to Malta for trial where they were held for two and a half years. The “documents of the Blue Book” or “Ambassador Morgenthau’s Story”, the “Andonian papers”, “fake telegrams” etc. were not found of any legal value, and the five neutral countries (Denmark, Holland, Sweden, Spain, Switzerland) when asked by the puppet Ottoman government in Feb. 1919 to appoint two judges for the international tribunal, abstained from sending any legal witnesses!


• 2- I am not defending anything but TRUTH that I have discovered. This can be changed, but when opposing evidence is laid down. Until such time, it is my duty as a decent human (forgetting my nationality and faith or ancestry) to defend and delegate what I believe to be true. The Empire could have been rotten, there could have been lots of criminals and innocents! Don’t they deserve the right to be heard or defended?
  
  Genocide is a very serious crime and unless it is proven any such accusations are of even higher ethical crime for something that did not happen in that context, but is a distortion of certain dramas to qualify for certain rewards by later generations! If we are to sooth and settle such imaginations or mythology of the “monster in the attic who killed your father/mother and ate them” etc., it means that we are wasting time in the wrong directions. The critic says that the “Armenian Way” is the only correct way! What I did, was to follow the Armenian footsteps and material and arrive at the very same conclusion, none of us are angels, we are all alike in benevolence or criminality!


• 3- Ottoman Imperialism (despite her lack to cope with modern changes) has not destroyed the national and religious inspirations or assimilated any one in the countries they occupied! All these new states live, because they were majority in those lands and were untouched. The number of Moslems, which had to evacuate those lands, is over 5 million and we know that 2.7 millions died in those years. Armenia was too far away, had no true value for the Allied Countries which provoked her! The population was only a minority under 20% in the area. The rebellion had no chance in a serious evaluation. It was a very bad gambling not counting the results; they did and lost!


• 4- Kemalism or last time “objectivism and realism” was the last string which saved an Empire of over 600 years and people who accept to be called Turks regardless of their origins, and I think that this is more of a virtue instead of a sin. Which man with minimal level of intelligence said that Armenianism is a capital offense? Who? Regarding Armenian irredentism, it is definite that the Dashkanist leaders turned down the offer of autonomy in August 1914, openly sided with the enemy, risked the lives of their own community, gambled on their own power and lost a WAR. If they decided not to return and make their claims, that was their choice! Regarding “claiming back the ship that was abandoned”, this has no logical or legal basis, nor any possibility of becoming true, more than an anecdote like the one of the critic about the fly and the elephant.

These dreams of consolation of being right but victimized, and hope for restitution some day, brings no bettering to the lives of the suppressed Armenians in Armenia, or the poor ones who came to a country they were told is their enemy; but where they work to support their families in Armenia. As one them had said when asked: “There can be no bad or good nation, but there are good or bad persons”.

I am not concerned about the diaspora Armenians who live in comfort and security within their offered liberties, who pay and employ a certain choir to propagate this myth and make their livings by investing these donations in monuments and museums of hatred (which no other nation ever thought or invented). Only in April 2008, Ken Hachikian sent his third letter asking donations! My concern is for the Turkish Armenian community, 95% Gregorian Christians with their own Patriarchate, versus a minority of about 5% Protestants exporting troubles from USA and Catholics from France, doing the same thing! It all takes one or two idiot Turkish fanatics to set fire to the existing peace and harmony of the Turkish Armenians, with whom we (at least I) feel as close as fingers and nails. Ottoman Imperialism offered all positions, titles, rights to the Armenian community as the “loyal millet”, whereas all other Western Imperialists injected and used Armenian aspirations for their own good, and then abandoned in full. I have been several times in Las Vegas, and I do not remember any slot machine that pays “jackpots to the loser!” (Gambling is very bad, especially when done on others’ lives!)

If I have left any point unanswered, my E-mail is inside the book. I am open to answer readers’ questions, but responsible only for what I have said or written, and not what I have quoted, showing the source!

Sukru S. Aya

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Please also see

1. Evidence for Talaat Pasha from Lt. General a.D. Bronsart v. Schellendorf



2. 
   

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Regarding book review by a certain Macreau, who apparently has not read the book from this E-library but comments to keep company in the choir of the tune he does not know, please note that:

I will answer this impolite approach only once and forever! I have no desire to deal with fanatics or those who jump into conclusions based on assumptions without respect to the personalities they charge like Don Quxiote!

• a- What does my being born in 1930 or 1920 or 1980 has to do with the subject? Never mind what my age!; Just read what I have presented and answer those written facts! My “personality” or being product of what system has nothing to do with the essence. I strongly recommend the critic to read this posting # 1647, and understand “my total ignorance on the tactics of how to kill other persons, like they are teaching nowadays Elementary schools in Armenia”.


• b- Regarding the “betting habit of this person”, I am afraid that he messes up “betting on documented facts” with horse or hound races! Of course I cannot read or write any foreign languages ! (I have used translators and interpreters to read and scan some 30.000 pages to pick up the excerpts! Any objections? I am not curious to learn his level of Armenian language proficiency, since we are corresponding in English. This compilation is not from the “glorified Turkish History”, but on the contrary, is from Glorified Armenian History and books! Of course, this person speaks in the air, because he just saw a review but not a line of my book! I wrote my bibliography! Had I known that I would be asked “how many foreign languages” I speak , I could have added a “fair level of Rumanian, Italian and French” as well, not counting my English which I could not learn in an American missionary College! They gave me a BA in Literature for walking around with interpreters! My research covers, Swedish, Dutch, German and a sack of U.S.A. papers. All references are given. If any can prove one to be doctored, I will declare myself a LIAR! He may start with the “Reno Evening Gazette” of Oct.14,1915 available in this library or my book pages 662-663. If he has any objections, he better protest the paper or the writer!

• “ Armenian Genocide?” Sure, every one is free to sing the song he likes! (It needs not to be true!)
• * Bask under the sun? Sorry, doctors do not recommend!
• * Turkish masters? I have no masters, never had or tried to have one, except my own conscience!
• * Spinmeisters? I spin no one, and none could ever dare touch or spin me; I am too heavy and hard on fingers!
• * Coffin and nails? Turks use shrouds for burials!

(P.S: I sincerely thank my shadowed interpreter-translator who composed these replies for me, since the critic knows that I can speak no other foreign languages!)
Sukru S. Aya

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24 Apr 2008 -0700 (PDT), From: Ara Baliozian, April 24, 2008
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BOOK REVIEW (PART I)
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THE GENOCIDE OF TRUTH. By Sukru Server Aya. 702 pages. Illustrated. Index. Bibliography. Istanbul: Commerce University Publications. 2008.
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This mammoth compilation of quotations, documents, and polemics sets out to prove once and for all that the Armenian genocide is a figment of imagination, but it succeeds only in proving that the Turks take this figment very seriously.

In his introduction, the author (born in 1930) admits that he first heard of the Genocide in the 1970s when Armenians unleashed a campaign of terror by assassinating more than forty innocent Turkish diplomats. What he fails to mention is that on April 24, 1915, at least four times as many Armenian intellectual leaders in Istanbul, among them some of the most beloved names in modern Armenian literature, were arrested, declared guilty on grounds of their Armenian identity, condemned to death, and executed. He further maintains that the so-called “million and a half” were victims not of a state-sponsored policy of extermination but of badly executed deportations, war, atrocities committed by Kurdish and Circassians bandits, starvation, and disease, all of which claimed many more Turkish victims. It follows, if the Turkish state cannot be held responsible for these crimes, the Armenians have no case. Again, he fails to mention the fact that the properties of the deported Armenians are now in the hands of the Turkish state. Even if not guilty of factors beyond their control, the Turks are guilty of occupying properties that rightly belong to their original owners.

Considerable space is devoted to the discussion of Toynbee’s youthful anti-Turkish stance. What is not mentioned is that even after he acquired Turkish friends and adopted a pro-Turkish stance, Toynbee at no time denied the reality of the Genocide, which he equated with the Jewish holocaust during World War II.
If like me you were born and raised in an alien ghetto populated by Armenian survivors, this book will fail to convince you that everything you were told as a child by your parents, grandparents, schoolteachers, and community leaders was propaganda. But if you are a Turk born and raised in an environment where even uttering the words “Armenian genocide” is considered a criminal offense, the book will succeed in reinforcing your conviction that as a morally upright people, Turks cannot be held guilty of any crime against humanity, let alone genocide, and that all their accusers are no better than misguided and brainwashed dupes, fanatics, charlatans, and profiteers. To which I can only say, all nations produce their share of jackals and hyenas and I doubt very much if Turks are immune to these universal aberration. (More to follow.)
#
Re: book review:Posted by: Macreau, Apr 24, 2008 11:01 am (PDT)
In a message dated 4/24/2008 10:31:22 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, Ara Baliozian writes:
BOOK REVIEW (PART I)
**************************************************
THE GENOCIDE OF TRUTH. By Sukru Server Aya. 702 pages. Illustrated.
Index. Bibliography. Istanbul: Commerce University Publications. 2008.
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This book's contents are not surprising at all. Just consider the following : The author is born in 1930 and is the product of Turkish educational system ( read as glorified Turkish history). I even bet that he does not read or write any foreign languages so that he could consult foreign sources dealing
with the events of 1915.

As a matter of fact another nail was nailed to the coffin of Turkish spinmeisters. Until today we all talked about Austrian, German sources, and NOW we have found Swedish sources in Swedish archives dealing with what we all
know.....the Armenian genocide perpetrated by Ottomans.

Let Mr. Aya bask under the sun of is Turkish masters.....

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From: Ara Baliozian , 25 Apr 2008 -0700 (PDT), April 24, 2008
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BOOK REVIEW (PART II)
*********************************************
THE GENOCIDE OF TRUTH. By Sukru Server Aya. 702 pages. Illustrated. Index. Bibliography. Istanbul: Commerce University Publications. 2008.
*************************************************************
At one point Aya suggests that the Genocide may well boil down to stories told by grandmothers, implying they could hardly qualify as admissible evidence. Which raises the question: If you had a choice between believing the eyewitness account of a grandmother and the hearsay evidence of a politician with an ax to grind, whom would you choose to believe – especially if the grandmother’s stories were supported by countless articles in the international press some of which have now been collected and published in book form.
*
Aya writes: “Armenians are among the most monolithically acting people in the world today.” This assertion is contradicted by the fact that some of his most important denialist sources are of Armenian descent. He further accuses Armenians of being intolerant of dissent. As a result, he writes, the extremists are heard ad nauseam and the moderates are silenced. But isn’t that the case with Turks too? If Turks, unlike Armenians, are tolerant of dissent, why is it that Orhan Pamuk (a Nobel-prize winning novelist and essayist) and Taner Akcam (a distinguished academic), both of whom have dared to write about the taboo subject of the Armenian genocide, now live in self-imposed exile?
*
The Turks have made their state archives available to scholars, Aya informs us elsewhere, but the Armenians have consistently refused to do so. Speaking of Ottoman documents that support the reality of the Genocide, he dismisses all of them as forgeries, implying the documents in the Ottoman archives supporting his thesis have not been selected, manipulated, edited, and doctored in any way.
*
Genocide books (both pro and con) change no one’s mind. They only preach to the choir and the Allawa akbar corner.
*
If there is a moral to be drawn here, it is this: politics is a filthy business, writing history a complex operation, and propaganda the universal medium of all power structures, especially those that view themselves as morally superior.
*
Both Armenians and Turks are unanimous in asserting that the truth must be established and the controversy surrounding the Genocide must be resolved once and for all, even as one side continues to criminalize all mention of the Genocide, and the other to build monuments and museums, produce documentaries and movies, organize demonstrations and symposia, and publish an endless stream of books, editorials, commentaries, and polemics. As a result, both sides continue to be polarized with no end in sight. I regret to say the book under review succeeds only in contributing to this unfortunate process of polarization thus making the prospect of a resolution unlikely, perhaps even impossible. (To be continued.)
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From: Ara Baliozian 26 Apr 2008 -0700 (PDT), April 26, 2008
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BOOK REVIEW (PART III)
*********************************************
THE GENOCIDE OF TRUTH. By Sukru Server Aya. 702 pages. Illustrated. Index. Bibliography. Istanbul: Commerce University Publications. 2008.
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Finally, here are some questions that Aya’s magnum opus raises:
*
Is there a single nation in the history of mankind that has fabricated a genocide and believed in it for almost a century? – more than a century, as a matter of fact, if one includes the Hamidian massacres at the turn of the last century.
*
Why is defending the borders of a disintegrating and rotten empire (perceived as such even by Turks) with every means at one’s disposal politically justifiable and Armenian desire for self-determination a crime against humanity? – unless of course one subscribes to the principle of might is right or what’s mine is mine and what’s yours is mine also.
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Who in his right mind would dare to assert that Ottoman imperialism or Kemalist nationalism is right or acceptable but Armenian irredentism a capital offense?
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Read Full Post !

2443) Erdogan: Turkey & Armenia Have A Priority To Build Up Good-Neighborly Relationship / Armenian PM Welcomes Turkish Dialogue Request

28.04.2008 PanARMENIAN.Net Turkey’s Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has sent a congratulatory message to Tigran Sargsyan on appointment Prime Minister of the Republic of Armenia, the RA government’s press office reported. The message states, in part,

"Dear Mr. Prime Minister,

On behalf of the Turkish people and myself, I extend to Your Excellency my congratulations on your appointment as Prime Minister of the Republic of Armenia.

I am hopeful that during your tenure in office, our bilateral relations will reach such a standard as may promote peace, tranquility, stability and prosperity in the region. . .

In our capacity of geographically next-door neighbors, we have a priority in respect of finding a definitive resolution to the problems available and building up good-neighborly relationship through dialog.

I am convinced that as favored by this new stage following Armenia’s presidential elections of February 19, 2008, as well as owing to Your Excellency’s efforts, specific steps may be taken towards the settlement of our bilateral relations. With this in mind, I would like to stress that the proposals submitted to your side and which, to our firm belief, may facilitate the progress in this process, still stand on our agenda.

I avail myself of this opportunity to wish good health and happiness to Your Excellency, as well as peace and prosperity – to the people of Armenia."

As a follow-up to Mr Erdogan’s congratulatory message, RA Prime Minister Tigran Sargsyan signed a communication in which he has referred to Mr. Erdogan’s proposal on starting a dialog with a view to settling the bilateral relations. The Prime Minister of the Republic of Armenia stated in particular:

"I wish to thank you for those congratulations and best wishes received on my appointment as Prime Minister of the Republic of Armenia.

I am convinced that through personal contacts, we will be able to promote the settlement of any issue of mutual concern.

I would like to reaffirm the willingness of the Armenian Government to initiate a constructive dialog and establish normal relationship between our two countries without pre-conditions.

I strongly believe that together with you, we have a historical mission to complete by shaping an atmosphere of mutual confidence as otherwise it would be hard to enter into an open dialog and settle the existing problems. I can assure you that our endeavors will be aimed at establishing peace, tolerance and stability in the region.

I avail myself of this opportunity to extend to Your Excellency the assurances of my highest consideration."

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Armenian PM Welcomes Turkish Dialogue Request
April 29, 2008, YEREVAN - Reuters
Armenia is ready to start dialogue with Turkey on improving relations if Ankara does not set preconditions to talks, Armenia's new prime minister said Sunday.

The two neighbors have no diplomatic links after Ankara severed ties in protest against Armenian occupation of the Nagorno-Karabakh region, over which Armenia fought Turkey's ally Azerbaijan in a war in the early 1990s.

"I confirm the readiness of the government of Armenia to engage in constructive dialogue and establish relations without preconditions," the press office of the Armenian Prime Minister Tigran Sarksyan said he wrote in a letter to Turkey.

An Armenian-backed administration controls the Nagorno-Karabakh region. Armenia and Azerbaijan are still officially at war over the mountainous area.

Last week Turkey's foreign minister said he had sent a letter to Armenia calling for dialogue. Armenia is a mainly Christian state of around three million on the edge of the Caucasus which hosts a pipeline pumping oil to Europe from Asia.

Armenia also accuses Turkey of genocide during the violence at the end of World War I. Turkey denies the accusations and says that both Christian Armenians and Muslim Turks died in the fighting.

"I assure you that our efforts will be aimed at ensuring peace, tolerance and stability in our region," Sarksyan told Turkey in the letter.

Sarksyan took over as prime minister earlier this month. He had previously been central bank chief.

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2442) Full Transcript : "Why Do Armenians Commemorate April 24th" by Ara Sarafian

Bilgi University, Istanbul
Armenian Genocide Commemoration
24 April 2008

Armenians in the Ottoman Empire on the Eve of WWI: An Overview

Until WWI, Armenian Christians were one of the main communities populating the Ottoman Empire. In the 19th century, Ottoman Armenians were divided into three communities: the Armenian Apostolic (or Gregorian), the Armenian Catholic and the Armenian Protestant. The Armenian Apostolic community was the largest, headed by the Patriarch of Istanbul. After 1864, the Patriarchate of Istanbul evolved a broader base, and included an elected national administration. . .

So, what was the physical presence of these Armenians in the Ottoman Empire? According to the last census of the Patriarchate of Istanbul in 1913, on the eve of WWI, there were approximately 2 million Armenians in the Empire, inhabiting 2,925 town quarters and villages. These communities had 1,996 schools with over 173,000 male and female students, as well as 2,538 churches and monasteries of varying description. So, one could say there was a vibrant and rooted Armenian presence in the Empire.

While Armenian artisans and merchants were very visible—because they dominated much of their professions in urban centers—the vast majority of Armenians were peasants and lived alongside Turks, Kurds and other Muslim and Christian communities.

Following the 1908 Young Turk revolution, a number of Armenian political parties were also active in Ottoman politics. Some were Ottomanists and worked within the political structure of the Empire, while others were more critical of the Ottoman system of government.

The largest Armenian organisation, which ran the day to day affairs of the community—was the Istanbul Patriarchate. Armenian Protestants and Catholics also had a comparable ethno-religious structure.

[Slides: Armenians in the Ottoman Empire: Population, churches, schools]

The Armenian Genocide of 1915

Given the presence of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, when we talk about the Armenian Genocide, we refer to the destruction of over 2,000 Armenian communities—through the expulsion and killing of people, the ruin of communal infrastructure such as schools, libraries, and churches, as well as the loss of private property. If one were to go to the provinces of modern Turkey today—where most Armenians in the world lived before WWI—practically nothing can be seen or is acknowledged of the historic Armenian presence there..

Regarding the mass killing of people, a central component of the 1915 genocidal process, we have substantial evidence from different sources—beyond noting the disappearance of thousands of people.

Just to give you an example of why I believe that the Ottoman state carried out systematic murder during this period, I would like to mention one incident in the Harpoot (Elazig) plain. There are other similar examples from the Harpoot region, as well as other parts of the Ottoman Empire. I use the Harpoot plain as an example because:

1. Around 40,000 Armenians inhabited over 50 town-quarters and villages in this area. Not one village was left intact by the end of 1915.

2. The Harput plain was not a battlefield during WWI, so it is clearer to decide what happened to Armenians there. The state had absolute control at all times, there was no form of resistance, including during the so-called deportations of 1915. The local Armenian population was passive and made no efforts to defend itself when victimised.

3. Many foreigners were present in the region and recorded what was happening. One of the most important sources we have from this area was Leslie Davis, who was the United States consul there.

What did Consul Davis Say?

Consul Davis reported that a reign of terror against Armenians had already started in May 1915 and got much worse in June. Many men were arrested and re-arrested, together with hundreds of others. “On the night of June 23, 1915, several hundred of the most prominent Armenians were sent away in ox carts from the local prison to an unknown destination… all [of] these men were massacred somewhere near Arghana Maden, about half way between Harput and Diarbekir….” The exact number of people deported and killed in this caravan, initially called the caravan of 800, was estimated at 979. Davis stated that several survivors of this group returned to Mezereh and related what had happened. Some government gendarmes also bore witness to what had happened to these Armenians. Davis concluded that the shooting and killing of people a few hours after their departure from Harput showed that “the real intention of the Government is not to exile them but to kill them.” Davis recorded more such killings in the subsequent weeks. He also visited some of the locations where thousands of Armenians had been killed a few hours south of Mezereh (Elazig).

However, not all Armenians were killed outright. Once young men and community leaders were liquidated, the authorities began the deportation of the remaining population—with few exceptions—to Syria. Some of these deportees suffered and died from privations on their way to exile, something Davis witnessed amongst Erzeroum deportees when they passed through the Harput plain. There was no doubt in his mind what deportations entailed.

What happened in the Harput region in June-July 1915 was fairly typical and was repeated elsewhere, including in such regions as Sivas, Erzerum, Diyarbekir, and Yozgat provinces. In all cases such persecutions were totally unexpected by the victims, and the typical response from Armenian community leaders was to accept such abuse in order to avert worse disaster, which, of course, is what happened.


April 24th, 1915

In many ways, events in Istanbul on April 24th—two months before the general deportations and killings of most Armenians living in the provinces—fell into a similar pattern. It was on the evening of April 24th, 1915 when Ottoman police began the arrest of a large number of Armenians in Istanbul. Approximately 220 men were arrested in one night, and gathered in the Central Prison (Mehderhane).

The arrested prisoners came from all walks of life, and most of them were intellectuals and community activists. They included members of political parties, community activists, journalists, doctors, teachers, merchants, artists. It was not clear why they were all arrested, and no reason was given by the authorities.

The following day, on April 25th, these men were taken to Sarayburnu, where they embarked on a waiting ship and taken to Haydar Pasha train station. They were then taken into the interior of Anatolia. They were not told where they were going. They spent a night at Eskishehir and continued their journey eastwards. They disembarked at Sinjankeoy on April 27th, where they were divided into two groups. One group was sent to Ayash, the other to Changiri.

After the prisoners were separated into groups, the situation seemed a little clearer: Those who were sent to Ayash were the mainly political intellectuals. This group of 70 or so prisoners was imprisoned and kept under armed guard. The larger group of around 150 was sent to Ankara, and then taken by carts to Changiri, where they were initially imprisoned in an old army barracks, and then allowed the freedom of the town. They were simply required to report to the police station every day.

Why were they arrested?

The prevailing rationale amongst the prisoners for their arrests was because the Ottoman Empire was at war, there was fighting at the Dardanelles, and Ottoman authorities suspected many Armenians to have sympathies for the Allied powers (Great Britain, France and Russia). The mass arrests, they thought, were probably a precautionary measure to stop any potential trouble from Armenian quarters.

However, most of those arrested could easily protest their innocence. They assumed that the authorities had made a mistake and they waited for an opportunity to prove their innocence. They thought time was on their side.

A small number of people, however, were simply afraid, because it was obvious that the arrested were mostly harmless individuals, and they doubted the motivation of the government in arresting them. They suspected that there were more sinister reasons for these arrests, but they did not know what those reasons were.

The fate of the Prisoners

We know a great deal about these arrests, the names and profiles of most of the arrested, and the manner in which they were initially treated. This is because some of the prisoners were released and survived their ordeal, and they wrote down their experiences. The key sources we have used for this paper are Aram Andonian (Chankiri), Mikayel Shamdandjian (Chankiri), and Krikoris Balakian (Chankiri), Piuzant Bozadjian (Ayash).

To give an account of what happened to the arrested, based on the above sources, we can summarise as follows:

About 20 men were allowed to return to Istanbul following special representations made on their behalf by foreign ambassadors (such as ambassadors Morgenthau, Wangenheim, Pallavicini). A few were also released because their arrest was due to mistaken identity. A few survived miraculously, such as Aram Andonian, who broke his leg and was hospitalised—and missed the death caravans of his fellow inmates.

In the case of the 70 men sent to Ayash, the majority of the prisoners were killed. Krikoris Balakian lists 62 prisoners by name, and records that 45 of those named and 13 of the others were killed. That is 58 men killed out of 70 imprisoned.

In the case of Chankiri, where initially 150 prisoners were sent, 81 people were deported from prison in three caravans starting in June 1915. They also disappeared and were reported killed. The balance of prisoners were expected to remain in exile and not to return to Istanbul.

However, we know very little how the Ayash and Cankiri prisoners were actually murdered. They were marched away and never heard of again. In the case of Taniel Varoujan and Roupen Sevag’s group of five, we are reliably informed that they were killed near the village of Tuney by a Kurdish thug and his gang. It is not clear how the gendarmes in charge of these five men allowed the killing to take place. According to Andonian, a second group of men (24) were shot and buried at Elma Dagh.

Krikoris Balakian lists 69 of the prisoners in the Changiri by name and states that 25 of them were killed. Balakian suggests that most of the balance was also killed, but he does not provide any names.

Arrested

So, the men arrested in Istanbul on 24 April 1915 were taken into state custody. From the moment of their arrest, the government was responsible for whatever fate befell them. The fact that they were not formally charged and not allowed a defence speaks volumes. The arrests could only be seen as a political exercise, directed by the Ittihadist government. These men were not arrested for what they did, but what the government wanted to do in the months ahead. Clearly the law was used as an instrument of power, not for justice.

Because these Istanbul Armenians were arrested before the general deportation and massacre of Armenians in the provinces, the April 24th arrests have been seen as a significant step towards what is now called the Armenian Genocide of 1915. The April 24th arrests liquidated the cream of the Ottoman Armenian intelligentsia, drove others into hiding, and paved the way for the liquidation of provincial Armenians.

Until recently, the Armenian issue was treated as a taboo in Turkey. In some ways, it is still challenging how to discuss the matter. However, it is now clear that Armenians, and the issue of 1915, are part of the common history of this land. Should Turkey continue down the democratic path of openness, I am sure Turkish archives will yield more information that is relevant to our topic today, and we will come to a better understanding of our common past. It is in this spirit that I have presented my commemorative talk on why we Armenians commemorate April 24th as probably the blackest page in our history.

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Transcript Provided Courtesy Of The Gomidas Institute

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Related Articles:
What Happened On That Day? : Panel Presentation at Bilgi University, Istanbul: Report by Yuksel Oktay
24Apr2008 Ist Bilgi Uni Panel : A Sarafian, R Zarakolu. . What Happened On 24th April 1915 In Istanbul?

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Read Full Post !

2441) Exclusive: What Happened On That Day? : Panel Presentation at Bilgi University, Istanbul: Report by Yuksel Oktay

What Happened On That Day?
A Panel Presentation at Bilgi University, Istanbul
Organized by the Human Rights Association of Istanbul

24 April 2008
A first was accomplished in Turkey today when Ara Sarafian, the President of the Gomidas Institute in England (1) and the main speaker at the Panel, told the audience that he was making his presentation as a commemoration of the Armenian genocide day. There were around 150 in the auditorium, including several newspaper columnists, Human Rights Association members and university students. There were also many representatives of TV channels and the media. . .

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2440) U.S. Congressman Meets Convicted Terrorist

Please note: Although the following letter was sent (via e-mail, fax, and snail-mail) almost two months ago to both WDC and local offices (see contact information below) of Congressman HOWARD L. BERMAN (D, CA) to solicit an explanation of his strange conduct along with his views concerning war on global terrorism, no response to date was received. So, I decided to go public with my letter. . .

2221 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515
Phone: (202) 225-4695
Fax: (202) 225-3196

14546 Hamlin Street, Suite 202

Van Nuys, CA 91411
Phone: (818) 994-7200
Fax: (818) 994-1050

Dear Congressman Berman;
The Armenian lobby recently deceived you into meeting with this terrorist:

Source:
Source: LAWEEKLY, June 14, 2006

[ See also ARMENIAN TERRORISM: THEN AND NOW - Part IV
and
FBI files on the Armenian terrorist Mourad Topalian



How does it look to ordinary American on the main street that at a time when our nation is engaged in a global war on terrorism, you should meet with a notorious, convicted terrorist right here at home?

Former Chairman of the Armenian National Committee of America (ANCA)—now described as an "activist" by ANCA—Mr. Mourad Topalian was convicted in 2001 of federal crimes relating to terrorism and received a prison sentence of 37 months plus three years of supervised release – see: United States v. Mourad Topalian, Case No. 1:99, CR 358

He was found to have possessed explosives linked to a 1980 bombing in New York City. Federal Marshals discovered that for decades after, he stored machine guns and explosives at a storage locker dangerously near a daycare center, a school and gas station.

I am profoundly concerned that you—and possibly other Members of Congress and other elected U.S. officials—perhaps unwittingly, have been hosting meetings with known terrorists.

I realize and appreciate the fact that, as an elected official, one of your functions is to meet with constituent groups, you shake hands with hundreds of voters daily, and there is no way you can check the background of each and every person you are meeting. Granted. This letter, therefore, is not targeted at your honor or integrity, but those of others who surround you to the degree of suffocating you and who deliberately choose to “sneak in” “shady characters” into your personal space under the guise of “activist”.

I am referring to The Armenian National Committee of America (ANCA), which apparently has endorsed Mr. Topalian's terrorist past and has been giving him prominence in meetings with Members of Congress. These meetings, according to ANCA press releases and web postings

are aimed at influencing U.S. policy to turn against its allies in Eurasia (Turkey) the Caucasus (Azerbaijan.)

Moreover, such “meetings” steer clear not only of Mr. Topalian's heinous hate crimes, but also of the crimes against humanity perpetrated by the Armenian military regime in the occupied lands of Azerbaijan—especially the Khojaly massacre of 1992.

Nor do such “meetings” address the crippled democracy in Armenia where, as demonstrated in the recent elections, at least 8 protestors were killed and scores injured and arrested on March 1. (Here is the New York Times editorial “Dark Days in Armenia”,

March 7, 2008: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/07/opinion/07fri2.html )

Since convicted felons and known terrorists are denied the right to vote in the U.S. by law, I feel, when the likes of Mr. Topalian come to lobby Members of Congress and other government officials, the least their sponsors should do is honestly disclose their true identity/background and ask for the elected official’s permission to bring them into the meeting. This would help avoid damage to the credibility and image of the Representatives and Senators such they are visiting. Indeed, American foreign policy decisions should not be made on advice from such dangerous felons and terrorists as Mr Topalian or hate-mongering lobbyists like ANCA.

PLEASE, If you are contacted by the Armenian National Committee the next time, ask them to disclose in writing prior to such meeting, “if any in the group, scheduled to meet with you, has ever been involved in terrorism, hate crimes, or other such felonies against Turks, Azerbaijanis, Georgians, Americans, and/or others.”

ANCA and its affiliates have been known to parade those in illegal separatist military regimes, like Messrs. Bako Sahakyan, Arkady Gukasyan, Ashot Gulian, Georgy Petrossian and others, whose hate crimes victimized innocent Azerbaijani civilians in 1988-1994. They still “thumb their noses” at international law and are paraded up and down the halls of the U.S. Congress by ANCA.

Two other ANCA “leaders”, Viken Hovsepian and Viken Yacoubian were granted U.S. citizenship not long ago, despite having been convicted of terrorist crimes. During their citizenship appeals, the FBI testified that if their 1982 conspiracy to bomb a building in Philadelphia succeeded, the number of deaths could have been a staggering 2,000 – 3,000. [U.S. v. Hovsepian, 307 F.3d 922 (9th Cir. 2002)].

For ANCA, apparently it is all too easy to embrace those who commit terrorist crimes on U.S. soil. Please take an honorable stand against known terrorists and convicted felons from among the Armenian special interest groups.

Reconciliation between Turks and Armenians will come from more research and dialog, not through the monstrous acts of Armenian terrorists, fraudulent acts of hate-based Armenian lobby groups, or ill-informed political resolutions they pen and ram through the system using politicians like you.

The Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan has recently reiterated the need to focus on more research and dialogue among the scholars, repeating his 2005 proposal to Armenia—which is yet to be accepted by the Armenians.

This strange Armenian reluctance for open debate may be understood from the following : Brian Ardouny of the Armenian Assembly of America, in a videotaped interview for a documentary on THE ARMENIAN REVOLT clucked: "We don't need to prove the genocide historically, because it has already been accepted politically." Congress should reject that cynicism in defense of historical truth. [1]

No thanks to just this kind of blaringly irresponsible acts of some politicians and their boiler-plate, annoying, and misleading perennial resolutions, the image of the U.S. in Turkey hit all time low. Please, the next time you feel like taking the Armenians’ word for anything—much less meeting notorious Armenian terrorists eyeball-to-eyeball—you might wish to check with a world map to see how prominently Turkey is positioned: smack in the epi-center of that most resourceful tri-continental area, much larger than the United States, encompassing the Balkans, the Caucasus, the Middle East, with neo-silk route to Turkic Central Asia and precious energy lines from there .

And if anyone tells you that you can freely continue to insult and defame Turks, such as with your ill-advised support for the bogus Armenian genocide (HR 106), and still go to Turkey in desperation, to ask for their cooperation in Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Iran, or Russia, or Arab-Israeli conflict, or Lebanon, or Kosovo, or elsewhere, then please ask to get a second opinion, because someone is deceiving you again.

Thank you for your kind attention to the important matter of Armenian terrorism.

Sincerely,

Ergun KIRLIKOVALI
Son of Turkish-survivors from both maternal and paternal sides
ergun@turkla.com

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2439) Armenians in the Diaspora by Michael van der Galien

Although I think that Jason Epstein is right to point out at Pajamas Media that Armenians in the Diaspora should stop forcing governments to recognize the events of 1915 as genocide, and that they should - instead - focus on Armenia itself (with its massive problems, such as corruption), I think that it has to be said that Armenia has received a lot of financial aide from several countries in the past century or so, especially from the United States. As such, it doesn’t make any sense to me whatsoever to ask the US and other Western countries to invest in this country which has been driven into the ground by corrupt, mafia-like, selfish leaders.

The Armenian Diaspora should, most certainly, do all it can to help the country of their relatives - we presume - survive, if they care about the fate of this country at least, but asking other countries to invest once again isn’t the way to go.

What should happen is this; Armenians have to take responsibility for the state Armenia is in, and they should stop blaming Turkey for everything. The events of 1915 have nothing to do with the fact that this Armenia’s leaders have done everything in their power - from the get-go - to oppress their people, and to enrich themselves, to draw more power to themselves, regardless of what doing so would do to their people.

So, in that regard, I’m in complete agreement with Epstein. Members of the Armenian Diaspora would be wise to stop calling on governments to ‘recognize’ the so-called ‘genocide’ and to, instead, focus on making Armenia a better country. It has a lot of problems, most of which are caused by Armenians themselves. Most of its wound are self-inflicted. If you want to heal this country, you’ve got to start with yourself; that means with Armenia, and with the leadership of this country.
April 25, 2008

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Comments »
1
JudasPriest
April 25, 2008
If diaspora invests 1/100th of what they pour in to support "genocide’" claims towards Armenia instead which its infrastructure is dire need of even a dime, they’d at least help the cause of prospering their own people today. I think they have no stake in their mother land anymore, this is more like a mission for them. It makes happy to score against Turkey when they got another country notch recognizing genocide. The reality of Armenia is so far and not-interested for these isolated communities. Their communal power also depends on how much hatred they’d inject to their new generation in the diaspora. Instead they are missing the point as-to how much good it’d bring to Armenia today to have a peaceful relationship with the neighboring Turkey particularly by means of increased trade and modernization. They are not helping Armenians in Armenia.

2
Michael van der Galien
April 25, 2008
JP, that’s because they don’t really care, in my opinion. They worry about other things; they’re almost like a people themselves. They care less about Armenians - if these Armenians suffer today, because of the ‘genocide’ push, the Armenians in the diaspora think to themselves ‘you’re suffering for a good cause,’ and leave it at that. Lets not forget that Armenians have been oppressed most by their own people.

3
JanJan
April 25, 2008
"What should happen is this; Armenians have to take responsibility for the state Armenia is in, and they should stop blaming Turkey for everything."

But this insinuates Armenians ARE responsibility for their predicament. Yes corrupt leaders don’t help and are a blight on the country, but the first year or so of Armenia’s independence in 1991 is regarded as its democratic pinacle. It was also one of the most dire moments in Armenia’s history with no electricity or heat for the entire country. The fact the Soviet Union evaporated leaving it and all the other SSRs stranded was not their faults and is the number one reason for the massive problems each country faces- as I said while oligarchs don’t help they did not single handedly create Armenia’s problem.
Meanwhile Armenia does blame Turkey for at least part of its problems, since the blockade it imposed does nothing to help Armenia free itself of oligarcs, Russia, etc. Expecting Armenians to just never speak about their past again as Turkey lists as procondition for opening the border, no matter what you qualify 1915 as, is something you should be able to admit is an extremely tall and frankly unfair order to impose on an entire people and its diaspora of whom Armenia has little control over.

"The events of 1915 have nothing to do with the fact that this Armenia’s leaders have done everything in their power - from the get-go - to oppress their people, and to enrich themselves, to draw more power to themselves, regardless of what doing so would do to their people."

I enjoy this attack on Armenia, since I can be 100% sure you’d never apply the same standard to Azerbaijan’s own extremely corrupt elite since you like them so much more.

"Members of the Armenian Diaspora would be wise to stop calling on governments to ‘recognize’ the so-called ‘genocide’ and to, instead, focus on making Armenia a better country. "

Who says they don’t? Kirk Kerkorian alone has rebuilt Armenia’s entire road infrastructure and he’s just one of many wealthy diasporans who invest billions in Armenia. This doesn’t count the numerous other diasporans who invest in their own ways or with themselves by repatriating and working for change from the inside. I don’t like Armenia’s leaders either and the corrupt way they stole this election- but I also recognize the opposition in the form of LTP was hardly democratic when he was in charge either and unfortunately was more about hating the authorities than real change. The recent election cycle cannot be painted as good vs. bad, or that the diaspora totally neglects the country in favor of their own diasporan issues. While I would like more concentration on Armenia, it is clear after this last election that the diaspora doesn’t have a dog in Armenia’s internal issues and there is little they can do to change it. This needs to come from within Armenia and there isn’t all that much they can do to change that, short of teaching the authorities a lesson by cutting off all support and contact for Armenia- which ironically would then confirm your notion that the diaspora does nothing for Armenia. So what exactly are you proposing here? All I see is empty talk devoid of real ideas.

4
P. Connolly
April 25, 2008
"So what exactly are you proposing here? All I see is empty talk devoid of real ideas."
I think the proposal is for Diaspora Armenians to start looking at what they have become. In all this fanatical campaign for recognition of a "genocide" label for the events of 1915 Diaspora Armenians have involved themselves in political intrigue and deceit on an international level, have financed terrorists and lent them moral support and instead of becomming fully integrated into their host cultures continue dreaming of re-conquering Eastern Anatolia and drawing Americans (of all people) into this plan (shall we say "crusade"?) to take back land that was conquered 1000 years ago by a non-Christian people. Seriously!!! Has it occurred to you that other cultures have come here and become fully integrated into American culture and that -coincidentally- they did not harbor such dreams and hatreds against their former rulers?

5
JanJan
April 25, 2008
"instead of becomming fully integrated into their host cultures"

Are you daft?! Armenians have assimilated plenty!! In fact maybe too much for most of their liking! An Armenian has been governor one of the largest states in the union, there are two Armenians sitting in Congress and have been others in the past, Armenians can be found in every aspect of the culture from the one who invented the very greenback color on American money in the 19th century to… well I don’t need to list Armenian contributions to America today but without being patronizing or cliche they can be found in every industry and aspect of life.
This isn’t just American either, for example in France Patrick Devedjian is the head of the president’s own party!! The President of the Cyprus House of Representatives is also Armenian.
I’m sick of people who clearly don’t know the first thing about Armenians except what they hear from Turkish propaganda circles making such bizarre and utterly unfounded claims like Armenians are unable to integrate into their societies when they have more than done so!!! It is as if your burden of proof is your ability to type it!
How about loooking at the Turks in Germany instead!

6
P. Connolly
April 25, 2008
Okay, If Armenians are so fully integrated then why do they agitate for the "return" of "Turkish Armenia" ?

7
JanJan
April 25, 2008
First you are using the old Turkish propaganda tactic that the diaspora is a monolith and that all Armenians have salica dripping from their fangs as they scream for a transfer of territory.
Why do Irish-Americans celebrate St. Patrick’s day? Why have Italian-Americans maintained ethnic organizations for 100 years and identify with Italy strongly? Why do Jewish-Americans support Israel’s territory dispute against Palestinians?
None of these things have kept Irish, Italians, and Jews from integrating quite a bit into American society, so how do those Armenians differ?

8
P. Connolly
April 26, 2008
1. I certainly do not consider the Armenian Community a monolith and I certainly recognize the diversity among them.
2. I’m an Irish-American and marched (in uniform) during my four years in High School in what is probably the largest St. Patrick’s day parade in the country. However I do not see any parallel in the Irish, Italian -or any other fully-integrated non-Jewish immigrant community for anything similar to this:
http://setasarmenian.blogspot.com/2007/12/armenians-demand-justice-not.html
http://www.defacto.am/index.php?OP=205520896
Comparing this to the Irish celebrating St. Patrick’s day is clearly unbalanced.

The Jewish case is different. They were subjected to persecution for centuries in the Christian West (culminating in the Holocaust); they are a special case. Clearly the Armenians would like their case to be viewed as similar to the Jews but the facts show otherwise.

9
JudasPriest
April 26, 2008
JanJan you are saying that diaspora have little control over Armenian politics. I find it hard to believe as diaspora seems to have a lot of muscle when it comes to genocide claims over many countries by exerting financial and political means. How come Armenian lobby of France and US can not deal with home problems, I think there is great unwillingness to do it so. Yes, the blockade from Turkish side will continue if diaspora does not change its mind and start acting on matters that will improve life in Armenia on all cylinders. This is more practical than rhetorical since you can only achieve by having countries accepting genocide claims but nothing more. Also you should realize that there is no way that you’d get a penny or portion of Mt. Ararat. Therefore a smarter move for you would be to act responsible for the sake of your motherland country. Otherwise, Armenia would definitely suffer more, as simple as that.

10
JanJan
April 26, 2008
" The Jewish case is different. They were subjected to persecution for centuries in the Christian West (culminating in the Holocaust); they are a special case."

Wow, I didn’t think you’d actually go there. Certainly brave to tread into "Jews-don’t-have-to-fully-intergrate-because-of-the-Holocaust" territory, and then especially to compare them to Armenians and their lack of similarity- despite the fact their events of 1915 are widely put up there second after the Holocaust, whether or not you think it was a genocide.
Sorry but Americans are Americans, you have no right to create a double-standard where it is ok for American Jews to have ties to a foreign entity but not for anyone else. It’s this kind of exceptionalism which leads to resentment.

"Therefore a smarter move for you would be to act responsible for the sake of your motherland country."

Once again I ask for a real plan of action that should be pursued. Turkey says that until Armenians forget that a genocide ever happened and never talk about it again, period, there is no hope for relations. What kind of a sick ultimatum is this?!

11
P. Connolly
April 26, 2008
"Jews-don’t-have-to-fully-intergrate-because-of-the-Holocaust"

Any reader can see that this is clearly a misrepresentation of what I said. I never said -or meant- that they don’t have to fully integrate because of the holocaust. Quite to the contrary; In the case of the Jews, their interest in Israel does not prove a failure to integrate. But with the Armenians their interest in "Turkish Armenia" raises serious questions about their level of integration in their Host Cultures.

Based on previous experience with Armenians resorting to attacks on their opponents when cornered, one has to ask serious questions about "JanJan’s" misrepresentation of my statement.

12
Paul
April 26, 2008
It was the Jewish diaspora that fostered the notion of a Jewish State in an area with little to no Jewish population. That number did increase dramatically thanks to the Holocaust, but the fact remains there was no Jewish population in Israel to speak of at the beginning of the Zionist movement. This has continued to expand to today where American Jewish establishment (certainly not all Jews) continue to support the incursions into Palestinian territory via settlements which run unabated with the US President’s seal of approval. How is this different than some Armenians claiming Turkish land- a claim which certainly is nowhere near as serious a threat of coming true as Zionism? It is a wider reflection of the injustice of not just 1915 when Armenians were totally removed from their historic homeland but the treatment of Armenian property in places like Istanbul for the Armenians who did remain up until today. Their treatment and the ease with which their property still gets confiscated is totally indefensible (unless you are afraid the Armenian community of Istanbul is preparing to join up with Russia tomorrow) and there is absolutely no doubt that even without considering 1915 a serious soul-searching needs to occur in Turkey about this issue and simply saying ’sit down and shut up (and in some cases "love it or leave it")’ is not going to fix it. This is a deep issue which needs resolving, blaming the whole problem on Armenians and then villifying them for "creating" this issue is totally missing the point and origin of it.

13
JudasPriest
April 26, 2008
"Once again I ask for a real plan of action that should be pursued. Turkey says that until Armenians forget that a genocide ever happened and never talk about it again, period, there is no hope for relations. What kind of a sick ultimatum is this?!"

As you could remember, Turkey has been proposing Armenian co-operation to form a joint summit with the historians and offered opening up all Ottoman archives. Diaspora vehemently opposed to this investigation as they thought there was nothing up for debate in their mind. Do you remember? As this uncooperative attitude and hatred towards Turkey at every international platform continues, the relations will never improve, and whether you like it or not, we dont believe Armenian genocide and it can not be pushed down upon us either. The best is to leave it to historians, and stop this hatred.

14
JudasPriest
April 26, 2008
Also we did not forget ASALA and our innocent diplomat victims in Europe during 1970s and 80s. But still this debate would continue and I have no hope that Armenian church and diaspora will ever give up on it.

15
Paul
April 26, 2008
"The best is to leave it to historians, and stop this hatred."

Armenians would say ‘why leave to historians what we already know?’

I would say ‘how many historians do you need to say yes it was genocide before you stop feeling so confident in your handful who says it wasn’t?’ What kind of an answer is leave it to the historians except "let’s let Halacioglu havae the final say because we like what he says and he’s a ‘historian’, while simultaneously discounting all historians who say it was genocide because we’d rather have the (Turkish official) HISTORIAN decide!"

16
P. Connolly
April 26, 2008
Leave it to historians is a polite way of saying: "Why don’t you deceitful Armenian Propagandists stop seducing our politicians with your guaranteed deliveries of huge voting blocks and let the Historians uncover the historical facts." Let’s face it; Politicians have a vested interest in getting votes; they are not qualified to decide on the facts of one of the most complex historical events in the history of the human race. And there’s no need for the services of a group of self-proclaimed genocide "scholars" either. Historians - not politicians or self-proclaimed genocide "scholars" uncover the facts of history and a group of no less than 69 AMERICAN HISTORIANS and specialists in Ottoman and Middle Eastern studies put their names to an open Paid Ad published in the Washington Post and the N.Y. Times in 1986 expressing their opposition to this characterization of the 1915 events as "genocide". Armenians responded with Terrorist acts directed against Turkish Civil Servants, fund-raising for the legal defense of these criminals, and increased political pressure on American Politicians. The home of a highly reputable Historian who opposed the Armenians claims vocally was -coincidentally- bombed!

17
R
April 26, 2008
‘P. Connolly’ your quite partisan for someone who claims to be ‘Irish-American’.

18
P. Connolly
April 26, 2008
Well …like "JanJan" said above, the Armenians are not a monolithic block; she’s quite correct there. I’m well aware that there are many of them who deviate from the "party line". I happen to have studied -independently- the History and Culture of the Turkish people over a period of many years; and the history of Christianity …all from sources carefully screened and chosed for their impartiality. When one investigates the facts that carefully, it’s relatively easy to see that there’s alot of lying coming from the Christian Armenian side against the Moslem Turkish side. Ultimately, I don’t consider myself partial; the Armenians as a people are clearly being harmed by soiling their hands with such a hateful, lying campaign. They could make significant contributions to the human family if they would channel their energy in a more productive direction.

Humiliation of the Armenian people is not the outcome that I seek at all and the Turks don’t seek that outcome either. In the huge crowd of tens of thousands of Turkish Citizens who followed Hrant Dink’s funeral procession there was undoubtedly an overwhelming majority of people who -while oppoesed to this "genocide" label- care sincerely about the Armenian people.

19
Robert
April 26, 2008
Questions to Paul:
How many of your Historians that said "Yes" have actually conducted serious researches in national archives of countries like France, England, Russia and Turkey of course ???

How many of the self-proclaimed Genocide Scholars and the people from the Zoryan Intitute have actually done their own researches in the Archives ???
I mean, even Ara Sarafian that actually devotes his life searching and reading various archive documents, STILL hadn’t come up with the "Unrefutable" proof…
Same for Hilmar Kaiser…

It would be wise to actually let "REAL" historians do their jobs instead of relying on fraudulent, self proclaimed "Scholars".

20
Burnell
April 26, 2008
With all due respect, all the above comments are pretty short sighted. The Armenians as an ethnic group are well assimilated in every country the live in from Russia to the US to Egypt to Romania to Turkey. They are integrated so much so that many Armenians do not recognize the common characteristics of the Armenian culture when meeting a fellow Armenian from another country.

When comparing diaspora, there is not another more powerful diaspora than the Jews. In the US alone, they hold 18% of seats in Congress as well as important cabinent posts. The Armenians, while the second most powerful lobby ethnic group, do not have near the power.

When looking at the effect the Armenian Diaspora can have on Armenian politics, we see they have minimal effect. As correctly mentioned above, most diaspora especially those with family ties to Turkey and Syria are much more focused on Genocide than on Armenia herself. Most Armenians view the people who remain in Armenia as the "left overs" and look down their nose at the citizens of Armenia.

While many Armenians will jump up to the call "Manq Hay enq!", sadly this practice only extends to the diaspora outside of the former Soviet territory. Many hope that one day the diaspora will become a monolith and help Armenia herself but it will be generations to come before that is a reality.

21
Eugenie
April 27, 2008
"Ultimately, I don’t consider myself partial; the Armenians as a people are clearly being harmed by soiling their hands with such a hateful, lying campaign. They could make significant contributions to the human family if they would channel their energy in a more productive direction."

This is just absurd. You seem to be more obsessed with the notion that Armenians make no contribution to the world except to lie and hate and scream about genocide every day of every year and have no other function. Your insinuation that Armenians are devoid of contributions to the "human family", in the face of the numerous ways Armenians have contributed which are easily discoverable with a two second internet search, just shows your totally ignorance. It’s laughable how you rave abour your detailed study with each choice carefully selected for its impartiality, and yet when it comes to Armenians you can’t bring yourself to say a single positive thing about them. You’ve obviously done no real research on Armenians themselves outside of what you hear from Turkish propaganda sources- claiming you are not impartial on the Turkish/Armenian question because Armenians are so wrong and evil that it is impossible to be anything but partial is downright racist and disgusting. I can’t believe you are allowed to get off commenting like that at what is allegedly a professional blog.

22
P. Connolly
April 27, 2008
Response to post #20:
My intention was to simply point out that -other than the Armenians- I’m not aware of any Ethnic group here in the U.S. that is essentially saying to Americans: "We’re a Christian People! Please help us take back land that was conquered by those Moslem Turks a thousand years ago - our ancient hereditary ‘homeland’." …and that such a request raises serious questions about their level of assimilation in the host culture. I provided a link in post #8 above proving that that’s essentially what they’re saying and if that’s not enough I’d be happy to provide more. Response to post #21:

Any reader can see that I never said that the Armenians are ‘devoid of contributions to the human family’. That’s a completely false and groundless charge. However:
1. Clearly Armenians are best known for their "genocide" campaign against the Turks.
2. A huge amount of energy and resources are poured into this campaign by the Armenian Community.

3. The campaign is full of lies and based on deceit and Ethnic hatred.What I said and will now repeat, is that if all this energy were diverted to more productive and ethical ends, the Armenians could make significant contributions to the Human family.

23
Burnell
April 27, 2008
@P. Connolly
While I like the fact your continued combativeness has propelled this discussion forward, your lack of information and perspective on the issue is certainly evident.

Your made up quote shows that you have not understood the interaction of the various ethnic groups that exist in Anatolia as well as the Middle East. Up until the late 1800’s the Armenians, Kurds, Turks, Georgians, Persians, Arabs (Syrian, Iraqi, etc) all lived in together. It was not until the West imposed the ideas of the nation state that we saw the rise of ethnic nationalism.

The core of the Armenian argument is not about the land which is important but not central to the Armenian identity in the way Israel is center the Jewish identity. However, they are saying that the Turks systematically slaughtered 1.5 million Armenians and flung them around the world. Recognition of this atrocity is the core issue.

Most Armenians will correctly say that "Right of Return" as we understand in the Zionistic context is not nor will it be a reality. However, the Armenian heritage in Eastern Turkey in the cities such as Ani is being systematically destroyed. The Armenians inhabited these lands for thousands of years. The Turks are the new comers to the area being there only a mere 1,100 years. Recognising this is the part of the central issue.

Regarding your quip about other ethnic groups complaining to the US Government about past events, obviously you are not very well read on the ethnic group lobby. The Jews and the Armenians are two of the most powerful. However, there are numerous others such as: Hibernian Society of America, National Association of Arab-Americans, Cuban-American National Foundation and Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund.

Once you are a bit more educated on the topic, I would welcome further comment.

24
Eugenie
April 27, 2008
Very good points Burnell. The talk about land restitution which comes from some corners of the diaspora is directly related to the fact they were uprooted from these places and sent away for good. No one has seen them for 93 years and so obviously they take on the role of a wrongly lost homeland, because after all what else could you call it? Armenians watch as their sites of historic heritage throughout the region are systematically destroyed. You might point to Akhtamar as an (arguable) counter (I say arguable because Turkey was extremely heavy-handed in all aspects of that ‘PR campaign’, from trying to have the event on April 24 to making it next to impossible for the Armenian delegation to actually attend to refusing it to be used even once a year for church services to not even allowing the cross which used to adorn it go back up, meaning of course that the renovation was never finished, but that’s a different story) but Akhtamar was one event in the very near future.

One would just look a few decades before that and the Turkish government was actively going around Turkey dynamiting all the Armenian buildings they found. My ancestral church in the town of Cakirtas is just one of numerous examples of Armenian cultural heritage which was wantonly destroyed on purpose, you can find many more examples on the beautiful Virtual Ani webpage (which comes in Turkish too if you prefer) http://www.virtualani.org/ .

Those buildings which escaped this cultural genocide (ironically Akhtamar was almost a victim but luckily someone with a conscious who found out got a reprive) and still by a miracle remain and haven’t been turned into a stable or mosque are in a state of serious decay and are being left to fall in on their own. This is an example of being impartial P. Connelly, look at it from the Armenian’s point of view as well. This is what they have seen over the decades happen to every shred of their cultural history in Turkey. Are you surprised that many see no other solution to save what little is left than to get these lands back, or why so many Armenians resent Turkey’s ownership of these places? Instead of just looking at the effect of the problem, which is that many Armenians see eastern Turkey as historic Armenia (which is indisputable) and as a result claim those lands as belonging to Armenia, look at why these Armenians are furious at Turkey for its stewardship over those lands. Much of this destruction happened before 1965, the year when the global genocide protests began and Armenia was part of the Soviet Union, so you cannot blame either a hostile independent Armenia, the blockade, or a recognition campaign as reasons for this wanton destruction.

The destruction was indefensible of millenia of Armenian cultural history (though I’d like to see you try now) and has caused a lot of this anger, but I’m sure that’s just the Armenians fault too for caring what Turkey does within its own lands since they should just forget about ever living there or building or dying there at all.

25
P. Connolly
April 27, 2008 @ 5:09 pm CEST
It is not necessary for Burnell to attack or denigrate his opponent it is only necessary for him to state his arguments and proofs and let the reader decide.1. Nothing I have said shows ignorance of the condition of the milliet system under which the various ethnic groups lived in the Turkish empire. And yes, ethnic nationalism was a major factor in the Armenians’ decision to lean toward the Russians -the Hereditary enemy of the Ottomans- in 1914, in the hour of dire peril for the Turkish People.

2. Note that Burnell mentions in passing "the land which is important" - as if it were some piece of Real Estate which is up for sale. The fact of the matter is that there was a terrible war fought nearly a century ago. It’s now over, treaties were signed, peace was made and that "land which is important" has been governed by a legitimate government which the Armenians are constantly blackballing, calumniating and denigrating here in the West. This is no coincidence!

3. The Armenian argument that the "Armenians inhabited these lands for thousands of years. The Turks are the new comers to the area being there only a mere 1,100 years" (a **MERE** 1100yrs?) is precisely the problem. Similar arguments could be made for almost every square centimeter of the inhabited earth’s surface in connection with so many other ethnic groups. Armenians need to understand that World War 1 is over.Again, it is not necessary for Burnell to attack or denigrate his opponent, it is only necessary for him to state his arguments and proofs and let the reader decide.

26
P. Connolly
April 27, 2008
Eugenie’s post (#24) is most constructive and helpful in my opinion. Yes I recognize the value of Armenian culture, would not approve of any injury to it and acknowledge fully that what happened in 1915 should never have happened. Certainly I can see how the Armenians feel as Eugenie expresses it. I think many of the Turks can see this too. One must remember that the Turks are not a "monolithic group" either. Let’s look for a moment at American culture. While many Americans feel that something very wrong happened when the "Enola Gay" discharged its payload over Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the official view is that America owes the Japanese no apology whatsoever. Even former president Clinton was asked this question just a few years ago and he responded "No, I think Truman made the correct decision based on the information available to him at the time". This decision brought a instant death to tens of thousands of innocent non-combatant women and children and a life of agonizing suffering from the effects of radiation and other injuries to tens of thousands of others - so many of them innocent and non-combatants. Furthermore here in America African Americans live out their entire lives suffering injustices related to the treatment meted out to their ancestors by Americans. Armenians are holding the Turks to a Utopian standard. One must see it from the point of view of the Turks also.

27
Burnell
April 28, 2008
@P. Connolly
I am amused you viewed my comments as being denigrating. I think most would view them as a in the similar tone to your comments previous to mine which are joyfully direct. Apologies if I offended your sensibilities but I was simply drawing attention to your non sequitur errors.

Your comment in #26 again uses straw man fallacies to exemplify your point. Comparing what occurred from 1915 to 1924 as war is contrary to every definition of warfare outside of genocide. Your last statement, "One must see it from the point of view of the Turks also", is like saying that World War II needs to be seen from the side of the Germans. Most Germans, my extended family included, recognise that Hitler’s plans to exterminate the Jews was unforgivable. The distinction is that most Turks do not recognise what was done to the Armenians and actively work to refute the events using much of the logic you have exemplified above.

As I pointed out directly in comment #23, you need to go beyond the survey material you have been reading from Wikipedia and being to understand the real issues involved. You do a lovely job of using basic fallacy to advance your point and walk the fence of indecision. These comments are not attacking you but pointing out the detriment of your position.

Your third point in comment #25 underscores the limited grasp of the issue. If the Turks had not slaughtered the Armenians, there would still be a large population of of Armenians in Anatolia and we could say they would be living in the same peace they have lived in for the previous 1000 years. The issue is that there was a systematic extermination of an ethnic group and the exterminators refuse to acknowledge their culpability. This was not a case of migration. This was not a case of prolonged warfare. This was a premeditated execution of a group of people.

You can remain smug in your argument that the Russians were to blame for the slaughter. You can use straw man fallacies such as comparing the atomic attack on Japan to the nine year systematic slaughter of women in children. You can complain that your peers are attacking you. You can even go so far as to reference the material put online by the Turks to refute the events of 1915. However, in the end, you are left knowing that you are defending one of the most atrocious inhuman acts of modern times.

With all this said, we can go back to the original argument. Armenians are divided and will be for generations to come. For some, the genocide has defined them. For others, the genocide was a superfluous. However, the Armenians in the US, Russia, France, Syria, Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Norway, England, Wales, Israel and the Netherlands all strive to be good local citizens while they preserve what they view is a special culture. By the way, I have visited Armenians or know Armenians from all of these places. In the end, they want people to realise that the Armenians are a strong people who have made a defining mark on history but continue to be denigrated because many will not official recognise their blight.

In conclusion, P. Connelly, once again I applaud you for remaining argumentative and using basic fallacy to push along a dialogue. It is great amusement to see what you will construct next. I am hopeful in the end that you might be a bit more educated but I suspect you will stick to your current modus operandi. Of course, if you still feel I have offended, I acquiesce and apologise.

28
Robert
April 28, 2008
From post #27: "…If the Turks had not slaughtered the Armenians, there would still be a large population of Armenians in Anatolia…"

That is quite true, but considering the activities of the Dashnaks at the time, I wonder how many Turks would still be living/alive in Anatolia today ???

29
Eugenie
April 28, 2008
Wow, thanks for the drive-by thoughtful comment Robert! Really appreciate all the thought you put into that one line rhetorical (or should I say propagand…ical?) comment. Really adds a lot to the discussion.

30
P. Connolly
April 28, 2008
Burnell first states that he is amused that I take his comments as denigrating, then he feigns apology. For his information the following comments from his post #23 most certainly are condescending, denigrating and veiled attacks:"your continued combativeness has propelled this discussion forward, your lack of information and perspective on the issue is certainly evident."

"you have not understood the interaction of the various ethnic groups that exist in Anatolia as well as the Middle East"

"Once you are a bit more educated on the topic, I would welcome further comment."

And in the same post in which he feigns apology (#27), he goes on with:

"…you need to go beyond the survey material you have been reading from Wikipedia…"

"…You can remain smug in your argument…"
Apology is not accepted; it is clearly insincere. It’s quite clear that the Armenian position on this "genocide" issue is indefensible; we repeatedly see them resort to this tactic of attacks on their opponents instead of sticking to the subject at hand. The whole tactic of accusing their opponents of being "genocide deniers" and "Daniel Irving" is just another example of this inability of the Armenian Propagandists to defend their position. Ultimately they repeatedly resort to these personal attacks.

31
JudasPriest
April 28, 2008
"I am hopeful in the end that you might be a bit more educated" is exactly kind of logic that P. Connolly was indicating as hypocritical. Burnell, I’d say the same for you and that is a totally meaningless, pointless remark. You make your arguments, and we debate on those. I’d admit having read other comments particularly #20 by Burnell, It certainly helped me to calibrate my guessing regarding the extent of diaspora’s influence or power over Armenia’s internal politics. The later comment regarding "Most Armenians view the people who remain in Armenia as the "left overs" and look down their nose at the citizens of Armenia." was exactly my take on this subject anyways. So, when we say if the diaspora exerts more attention or money into their motherland, it’d certainly make more sense in terms of the reality of what could be achievable from Armenian perspective.

In my opinion, recognition of the genocide claim which is not the main subject of discussion on this post, is something that Armenian lobby could declare victory since many countries around the world bought their story. Personally, I don't see any benefit from Turkish perspective to whine about it every time the claim is recognized by a new country. You guys did a great job lobbying for selling it in every possible way and we Turks have failed to show what we believe as the right version of the story. Great many number of Turks perished during those years in the eastern provinces massacred by then turned militia of perfectly Turkish speaking Armenian residents who were happily supported by Russian army as the X-factor in the harsh territory.

This the crux of the issue that makes us think that it should not be treated as genocide but certainly be recognized as a great human tragedy affected all races in the region during WWI. Anyways, like I said before, I have no hope that you’d even be willing to debate what has happened 93 years ago historically, you’d flat out want everyone to define it as genocide, and that is not a subject to be up for debate in your logic. This uncompromising, one-sided approach would certainly fail to produce any possible consolidation on this hotly debated subject.

32
P. Connolly
April 28, 2008
Seeing this issue from the point of view of the Turks is not like "saying that World War II must be seen from the point of view of the Germans" (post #27). This is a typical tactic of the Armenian Propagandists. When backed into a corner they blackball and calumniate the Turkish Government and people. If there were a discussion on World War II and Nazi ideology were introduced, the fallacy of their arguments would be clear and evident to everyone. But what the Armenians insist on doing is arguing that the Turkish side must not be heard because that would be like listening to Nazis or to Daniel Irving. This logic is clearly circular and fallacious.

Regarding the argument that the "exterminators refuse to acknowledge their culpability" - The individuals who ordered the relocation of the Armenians in 1915 are quite dead; not only are they dead but they were killed by Armenians. The problem is that the Armenians in their frenzied thirst for revenge are trying to take out their hatred on people who weren’t even alive at the time of the events in question.

Regarding the accusation that I stated that "The Russians were to blame for the slaughter [of the Armenians]" …I never said this. In fact, it was Armenian leaders themselves who stated IN WRITING -after the events in question- that the decision of the Dashnaqs ("Armenian Revolutionary Federation") were reckless and placed the Armenian civilian population in great danger:

"…the methods used by the Dashnagtzoutune in recruiting these regiments were so open und flagrant, that it could not escape the attention of the Turkish authorities…"
Finally, I am not defending the relocation. Armenian Propagandists are insisting on nothing less than the "genocide" label for the events of 1915. The Turkish people overwhelmingly reject this charge which places them in the same category with the Nazis and their arguments are sound while the Armenian arguments attempting to place the relocation in the same category with the Nazi Extermination of the Jews are completely fallacious.

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