201) The Mind of a Pro-Genocide Partisan: Randy McDonald

The Internet is awash with lazy-thinking individuals who accept the ubiquitous Armenian propaganda at face value, and once in a while... as time permits... I make an effort to set these misled masses straight. I recently came across an essay entitled “Genocides and Denial” by Randy McDonald, writtten on May 18, 2004, on the “livingineurope” site (http://www.livingineurope.net/archives/000272.html), also repeated on what appears to be a sister site.

This is one of those sites that invites readers to post their feedback, and I composed my rebuttal, countering the simple-minded arguments the author had to offer. Moreover, I brought up information the author probably never heard of, such as the Russians’ booting five million Muslims in the century up to and including WWI, and killing another five-and-one-half million more, citing Professor McCarthy’s “Death and Exile.” (Since the author is a proud Irishman who listed Sinead O’Connor — and her conclusions about the Irish Famine — as a favorite, I thought that might be a source he would especially respect.) I also informed him — most likely he was hearing it for the first time — that over one-half million Ottoman Turks/Muslims were killed at the hands of Armenians, more than the Armenians who were killed by Turks. I reminded him that it is not proper to harp on one unproven and so-called “genocide,” valuing the lives of one people as more meaningful than another’s.

The next day, I noticed the post was gone. It was stunning. After all, one comes to expect such censorship from Armenian sites that offer forums/guestbooks... but why would Randy McDonald feel so emotionally involved that he would resort to an outright deletion? It struck me as unethical on various levels; the “livingin” sites seem friendly, and in their bylines is a little rule that seems to go against the idea of such dishonest alterations (“Producers do not alter the essence and structure of entries”); moreover, if Randy McDonald is so convinced about the strength of his argument, why didn’t he feel secure enough to counter my points the way I did with his?

At this point, I decided to give him a comeuppance... and I discovered another surprise. When you sign your name, you get the option of filling in your e-mail address (if I remember correctly), and I decided to put in the URL of the TAT site, instead. In other words, I did not include the site’s URL in the body of my message, but very indirectly... so if one hovered the mouse over my name, they would get the URL rather than an e-mail address.) When I filled in the URL again in my second message, a window came up saying the URL had been banned, as it offered “questionable” material.

Hoo-boy! Now I was getting a good glimpse into the hopelessly dogmatic character of Randy McDonald.

Here was my second message (starting out by responding to a new defensive message he put up after his deletion, reproduced later below, that partly stated, “it's no more intrinsically anti-Turkish...”):

It is anti-Turkish to talk about Ottoman Turkey's so-called genocide, when the proof is based on hearsay and fabrications, and only one side of the story is intentionally told. Furthermore, "genocide resolutions" presented by interest group-catering politicians with a one-sided knowledge of history are meaningless, when people have an agenda... as, now I can see, does Randy McDonald. He must be very insecure to have removed the detailed rebuttal to his points that I took the valuable time to compose, believing a fair exchange of ideas and facts was the idea behind this page. What are you afraid of, Randy? You should be ashamed of the censorship you have performed... if you are so certain about your arguments, then the presentation of other facts and figures should not have fazed you... particularly those coming from non-Turkish sources, having no reason to lie. An honorable person would have let them stand, and tackled them point by point.

Randy McDonald displayed his unerring courage by promptly deleting this second passage, as well.

I’ve run into this kind of absolutist behavior from hypocritical genocide scholars with whom I’ve communicated, especially after their arguments had been obliterated... and these “respected” scholars resort to a childlike sticking out of tongue at the end, stating in effect: “There was TOO an Armenian genocide! Nyaaaah-nyaaah.”

But what would compel this “nobody” to be so passionate about the subject, as to resort to censorship?

(Randy McDonald is a Canadian; his claim to fame is that he runs a blog site, named “Randy McDonald's Livejournal.” Yes, one of those folks who believe his/her life is so fascinating, that people would actually be interested in the minute details of his comings and goings.)

(One of his interests is “alternate history.” Hmmm. There are two ways of taking his view of the Armenian “Genocide.” [1] His view is that of the brainwashed West, having been subjected to the near-unilaterally presented Armenian perspective of history... which would then make him untruthful — in this example — of being interested in “alternate history.” [Or, as pro-Armenians like to tell it, “revisionist history.”] [2] The second way of looking at this claim of his is that the Armenian perspective is such a falsified one, even though the mainstream unthinkingly accepts it, it’s not REAL history.... therefore, Randy McDonald is being truthful when he lists “alternate history” as an interest.)

Here’s the way I see the psychology of those such as Randy McDonald who exercise such intense and dogmatic belief in Armenian propaganda that he would go so far as to censor dissenting views.

Psychology of Genocide Die-Hards

While I hate labels, I say the following with the admission that I am a progressive person, identifying with “liberal” causes.

Taner Akcam, the ex-communist and former terrorist turned Armenian mouthpiece, wrote in a forum recently that those who support the Armenian “Genocide” are mainly “liberal” people. The Wall Street Journal (not what we would call a “liberal” publication) presented an excellent article explaining why it’s people in the liberal camp who love to point to the Turks as their favorite whipping boy.

Extremists in the liberal mode can be really goofy people, not unlike those who are conservative extremists. Months ago I was waiting on a line and there was this fellow with a deliriously wild hairstyle in front of me. When it was my turn, making a reference to this crazy hair was irresistible, and the attendant and I enjoyed some satisfyingly cheap laughter. From the background protested a woman... whom, from her dress, appeared as a stereotypical radical feminist type... saying, what about your haircut?

In other words, we all have the right to wear our hair the way we want it. This is the kind of strict, humorless and diehard “liberal” that helps make me think Jerry Falwell isn’t such a bad guy, after all.

Now we all know “genocide” is bad. In fact, it’s the worst crime against humanity, so one would hope responsible people would be extra careful with their evidence before going around pinning blame. The liberal, who are known as compassionate, identifying with human struggle, immediately identifies with the suffering of the Armenian people. Especially since the liberal is bombarded by Armenian propaganda from every corner, and the only voice of dissent appears to be the Turkish government (helped by pro-genocide forces, trying to give the impression that it’s only the Turkish government objecting). The liberal knows the official voice of any government cannot be trusted, especially when it’s the government of those barbaric Turks... the liberal has probably seen MIDNIGHT EXPRESS, for one thing.

So when someone comes along saying, “It ain’t so,” the liberal’s automatic defense mechanism goes into gear. “How DARE you,” says the liberal. “Why EVERYONE knows those monstrous Turks persecuted the poor, innocent Armenians. See, even the dictionary says the word ‘Turk’ means ‘savage’ and ‘tyrannical’.” (Of course, the fairness in liberals would not allow words such as “monstrous” to be said out loud, but for all practical purposes, this is what the liberal thinks.)

However, the really scary part of this process is that no matter how much sense you talk into dogmatic zealots such as this brand of liberal, their ingrained belief system is so deep, you’re going to make as much headway as a tse-tse fly planning a trans-Atlantic flight. With too many Armenians, you can excuse the fact that it’s like talking into a brick wall... the “genocide” has become their cause, their religion, their reason for being. But how can these non-Armenian “Armenians” be equally irrational?

I mean, look; Randy McDonald has actually taken the radical step of snuffing out the presented counter-evidence. (Of course, his argumentation came across as particularly weak and he personally came across as foolish.... but doesn’t it state somewhere in the Marquis of Queensbury rulebook that censorship is not the honorable way to respond to a challenge, particularly in a format that invites differing views?)

At least Randy McDonald has an excuse, since he’s a “nobody.” He’s not a recognized expert in this field. In contrast to those such as Professor Adam Jones, who runs a gimmicky site dealing with “Gendercide” (get it? Another version of “genocide,” this time targeting the rubbing out of the sexes. Rudy Rummel is the king of defining subsets of genocide, coming up with democide, schlemocide, saladonthecide...) Adam Jones has written an absolutely awful paper on the Armenian episode (first covering the "gendercide" of Armenian men, then the "gendercide" of Armenian women. So... uhhh... if both men and women were targeted, wouldn't that be called, simply, "genocide"?), mainly resorting to Henry Morgenthau (Jones actually calls Morgenthau, who never left Istanbul and relied on his Armenian assistants, as a "Witness to genocide"!) as the main body of “evidence”; the professor received a detailed letter from me in the summer of 2003 pointing out the untrustworthiness of his interest-conflicted references, which he predictably ignored. Did he stop and objectively and scientifically consider the other side of the story? Not if the fact that his piece still remains at his silly site is any indication. No, his response probably was, ““How DARE you! Why EVERYONE knows those monstrous Turks persecuted the poor, innocent Armenians.”

A man like Adam Jones has no excuse, because he’s supposed to be a “professor.” His responsibility is to ascertain the facts, no matter how painful they may seem. (That is the responsibility of all honorable humans, but especially those of duty-bound professors.) Why are these genocide scholars so guilty of ethocide?
Ronald Grigor Suny

Political Scientist Ronald Grigor Suny

Back in 2000, there was a big to-do when Microsoft’s Encarta Encyclopedia wished to revise the Armenian allegations. I don’t know why Microsoft would have chosen to go with such biased “scholars” in the first place (I do know: these genocide scholars come across as “good” and “honorable” to the unwary, just as the missionaries did during Ottoman times), but Prof. Helen Fein, along with Armenian-American Professor Ronald Suny, who were hired to write the original pieces, objected. Suny claimed a Microsoft representative said the Turkish government had threatened to arrest local Microsoft officials and ban Microsoft products, unless changes were made. Steve Young of CNN reported, however: “When we asked, Microsoft denied receiving such threats.”

Common sense: would any government representative actually make such threats? Since Microsoft is just a tiny sliver in the forest mindlessly repeating Armenian claims, if the Turkish government were to arrest local Microsoft personnel in Turkey, what about all the other foreign company representatives stationed in Turkey that are associated with the omnipresent Armenian claims? Could one imagine the fallout if any of these company employees were arrested?

So somebody is lying here, and unless the named Microsoft worker (Frank Manning) had bats in his belfry, I’m afraid the odds are with the ethically-challenged “genocide scholar” pair. They know lazy-thinking people have been well conditioned, and will accept the evilness of the Turkish government at the drop of a hat. Do these people have any scruples, whatsoever?

An ANCA release spotlighting a "Chronicle of Higher Education" (a publication that serves university faculty members and administrators) article reproduced in http://www.greeksunited.com/newsletter/feature/microsoftcontr.html reported Prof. “Fein says Encarta wanted her to include a few lines on the ‘other side of the story’- the Turkish government's side.” Here’s the deception: if the Turkish government also happens to see a version of history as truthful, that does not make it “the Turkish government's side.” I have nothing to do with the Turkish government, and frankly, whatever they have to say wouldn’t sway me. We have to make up our minds for ourselves based on impartial facts... that’s what people of integrity do.



The resolution: “When Ms. Fein and Mr. Suny threatened to remove their names from the article and to publicize Microsoft's censorship, however, Encarta editors backed down. Ms. Fein and Mr. Suny agreed to add that the Turkish government denies the genocide, but held firm to the facts of its occurrence.”

Adding “that the Turkish government denies the genocide” actually made the matter worse, because the reader will have no cause to believe what any government has to say, let alone one with such a bad reputation. But that was the closed-minded goal of these two “genocide scholars.” They preferred to present the picture that Microsoft was under pressure from the “evil” Turkish government, but it was they doing the actual pressuring, by threatening “to publicize Microsoft's censorship.” (“CENSORSHIP”? According to these reports, Microsoft wanted everything to remain the same; they merely wanted the word “genocide” to be removed.)
Niccolò Machiavelli


And even when these two ethically challenged hypocrites had their way with their threats, guess what: the episode wound up being publicized anyway. Do these people have any scruples, whatsoever?

We have an idea of how these dishonorable genocide scholars behave. They’re so wrapped up with their zealous cause, just like the missionaries during Ottoman times, they resort to underhanded methods that would have made Machiavelli's "The Prince" proud.

A “liberal” zealot like Randy McDonald is off the hook on one hand, compared to his professional counterparts. Yet, in another way, he is even more guilty.... since the professionals are also influenced by their inflated sense of purpose that has been providing them with a living, the overblown “field” of genocide studies. Randy McDonald has nothing to lose if he were to look at the equation fairly and determine there really was another side to the story... whereas someone like Prof. Adam Jones would have to snip away from his repertoire such an easy and “sexy” genocidal episode that adds to his professional importance.

One good thing about liberals is that a sense of conscience still manages to emerge, and Randy McDonald actually made reference to the reason for the deletion of my posts. He gave three:

1. He doesn’t care for “the assignation of collective guilt to people on the grounds of their ethnicity... attempts to attribute a non-existent prejudice to critics, attacks on their personal character.” On my first post, there were no attacks on Randy McDonald’s personal character, aside from a lack of respect for his lazy-minded, simplistic acceptance of one side ot the story. And note the hypocrisy: genocide perpetrators are often seen not as an isolated bunch of rabble-rousers, but as an entire people. You had better believe the Armenian “Genocide” is so instantly acceptable because Turks have had the bad rap of being savages in the West, since the days of the Crusades. Whether he realizes it or not, Randy McDonald is assigning “collective guilt to people on the grounds of their ethnicity.”

2. “Also, when you make arguments, don't introduce extraneous arguments irrelevant to the issue at hand which serve only as emotional distraction, i.e. identifying Armenians as Naziphile and Turks as anti-Nazi.” I guess when he visited the TAT site, he noticed the one page on Armenian-Nazis... as I don’t recall bringing up that issue in my first post. This comprehensive site covers many different topics, and the Nazi issue... aside from being ironic, since the Armenians prefer to portray themselves as victims of the Holocaust... is not irrelevant. One of the main leaders of Armenian-Nazis was Dro, who got his practice slaughtering innocent Muslim woman and children during WWI. An open-minded researcher would investigate and see whether there were any connections... but Randy McDonald has made up his mind who the villains are, and the idea that his solidly established victims actually perpetrated systematic extermination is enough to give him epileptic seizures.

3. “Did I mention that for three years, I debated at the university level? Perhaps this is a prejudice, but I most respect debates, and debaters, who treat their partners and positions with a certain basic respect, even as they dissect their positions.” If Randy McDonald was such a professional debater, he should have welcomed the opportunity to put his mettle to the test, instead of putting his tail between his legs and refusing to take up the challenge. The time I became disrespectful with Randy McDonald was with my second post (which you’ve read above), after I noticed he had removed my initial “scholarly” rebuttal. If Randy McDonald desires respect, he must earn it... and the way to earn respect is not to censor someone’s dissenting views, in cowardly fashion.

Isn’t that exactly what genocide conferences do, operating behind closed doors, not daring to give the floor to those with dissenting views?

Was the Irish Famine a genocide?


For the rest of this essay, in case you’ve checked out the link and read what Randy McDonald had to say, let’s examine his position.

He starts out by telling us the Irish Famine was a genocide. My feeling: only among those who have a chip on their shoulder. Now I wasn’t there, and I can’t tell you conclusively whether the British had a master plan to wipe out the Irish in such a diabolical way... any more than I was there during the Armenian “genocide.” This is why we have to keep our minds open to any possibility, and the only thing we can count on are cold, hard, impartial facts.

However, I do know many Irish historians regard the representation of the Irish Famine’s planned genocide potential as bunk. Could the English have done more to save the lives of the Irish? No doubt. Yet, that is a far cry from concluding there was a purposeful strategy in place to kill people in droves.

One can’t compare with how other peoples fared in other famines of the period (as Randy McDonald quotes John Dolan): “[W]hile the potato crop failed in France, Germany, and many other European countries, there were no deaths from starvation. Only in Ireland did genocidal authorities decide to use a crop problem to kill off a troublesome peasant population.”) The difference is, unlike the variety of available crops/livestock in other countries, the potato was the mainstay of the Irish... given their generally cooped up living conditions, they could primarily only grow the potato in their little yards. And Dolan’s proof?

“(A) direct quote from Lord Trevalyan, spoken at the time this artificial famine was at its height: ‘This famine is a judgment of God on a stubborn and indolent people, and we must not ameliorate it.’.”

You can’t take an isolated quote or two from a few prejudiced representatives and derive foregone conclusions, particularly regarding such an important crime against humanity. How batty!

Henry Morgenthau had his ghostwriter report in the racist ambassador’s phony book that thousands of Turks were dying daily from starvation, because all the men were mobilized into the army, and few were left to till the fields. He estimated an entire quarter of the Empire’s population was lost to famine. Even Ottoman soldiers were dying en masse from famine. Does that mean the Ottoman government was guilty of genocide... against the Turks?

(Well, why not? The Turks have been accused of genocide against the Armenians, the Greeks, the Assyrians, the Kurds, the Klingons... might as well add the Turks to the list.)

Randy McDonald offers:

Honesty about the historical record is important, not only in order to develop an accurate historical record but in order to provide some sort of basis for reconciliation between peoples divided by differing interpretations of the same historical events. If, for instance, French and German schoolchildren were still taught about the innate warmongering evil of their neighbour country across the Rhine in the First World War, the European Union would be a less viable proposition.

How very ironic. After the war, Ataturk stressed brotherhood and love so as not to have generations of Turks grow up with hatred in their hearts against the Armenians and the Greeks, who committed such dreadful atrocities and acts of betrayal against their home country and fellow people. (In marked contrast to how too many Armenian and Greek parents have raised their children.) This is the primary reason why so many Turks are ignorant of the facts of the genocidal episode, whereas the pro-genocide fanatics hold the upper hand.

Randy McDonald cites a Turkish study:

The Ottoman Empire exiled Armenians living particularly in the East and Central Anatolia to Syria and Northern Iraq regions belonging to the Ottomans at the time. During this exile, a certain number of Armenian people died due to disease and inconvenient conditions. However, this loss never amounted to the deaths of 1.5 million Armenians and it did not even reach thousands. Thus, documents that indicate the Armenian population in the whole of Anatolia were just that. The number of exiled Armenians was nearly 500,000 and most of the exiled ones returned to their old places after 1918.

Then he goes on to sarcastically pooh-pooh it:

Presumably, the Armenians who never returned--the families, communities, entire regional populations never heard from again--travelled to, say, Antarctica, or Mars, or Alpha Centauri, some location beyond the reach of civilization where they could prepare for future waves of migrants mysteriously vanished from known realms. Perhaps they were joined by Ukrainian kulaks in the 1930s, central and eastern European Jews in the 1940s, Stalinist political prisoners in the 1950s, and the missing tens of millions from China in that country's 1960s. A pity we haven't found that place yet.

If Randy McDonald yearns for respect, he must earn it. He’s doing a very poor job here, by refusing to open his mind to facts he is uncomfortable with. As I pointed out to him in the first message that he deleted, there couldn’t have been 1.5 million Armenians murdered because neutral population statistics estimated a pre-war figure that ranged from 1 million to 1.6 million. The Armenians say 1 million survived. Subtract.

And of those who died, not all died from massacres. Richard Hovannisian, for example, reported some 150,000 Armenians (of the total Armenian mortality of 300,000-600,000, figures most Turks recognize) died of famine while accompanying the Russian retreats, with the Turks nowhere in sight. (“Armenia On the Road to Independence,” 1967.) A few thousand similarly died accompanying the French retreat in Marash. Most of the exiled Armenians did indeed survive, even according to the worst Armenian propagandists: Arnold Toynbee (in his “The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire”) agreed with Morgenthau (private diary, dishonestly not mentioned in his ghostwritten propagandistic book, regarding the visit of Zenop Bezjian) when both believed 500,000 displaced Armenians were alive (and “fairly well satisfied... settled down to business and are earning their livings,” according to Morgenthau), a number that must have surely grown by 1916’s end, as the relocation policy came to a close.

Yes, these are the facts and figures Randy McDonald decided to censor.... sources the pro-genocide crowd cannot argue with, as they don’t derive from “The Turkish government.” Now, it wasn’t like I was saying, “Your mama wears army boots, Randy McDonald!” No, my first post simply gave him these kinds of facts that blew away his biased and weak position. Now, why would his first reaction have been to delete these facts, instead of facing them like a man?

Randy McDonald’s conclusion: “Certainly in excess of a million Armenians were killed, possibly as many as 1.5 million. The scale of the massacres, and the degree of planning involved, is enough to qualify it as the first of the 20th century's genocides.” How could his numbers rate a “certainly”? In order for over a million Armenians to have been “killed” (he doesn’t allow for the majority of Armenians who died from famine, disease and the combat of the treacherous), and possibly as many as 1.5 million, there would have needed to exist over two million to 2.5 million Ottoman-Armenians. (Since the Armenians say, once again, that one million survived.) The only ones who say that many existed were Armenians. Who are we going to believe, the Armenians... so known to exaggerate the facts... or over a dozen Western estimates, none who could be called pro-Turkish?

Randy McDonald is also ignorant of what happened to the Hereros, and to the Filipinos, both between 1900-1910, while eager to give title to “the first of the 20th century's genocides.”

"Are we perhaps not looking too hard for a genocide?”


He then tells us the Turks should stop “the absurd pretense that there was no genocide at all.” We’re talking about a systematic extermination policy a la what the Nazis did to the Jews, correct? If the British couldn’t come up with the proof that such a genocide occurred with W.W.I’s Nuremberg, the Malta Tribunal, what kind of delusion is Randy McDonald suffering from by using a term such as “absurd pretense”? He is so wrapped up with his conclusion, without objectively considering the real facts, he is going to hold his breath and stomp his feet, all the while insisting there was TOO an Armenian “genocide.” We’ll be getting to his “proof” in a moment.

The one dissenter whom Randy McDonald allowed a presentation from was “Ikiz,” who wrote:

“When I read the article you provided the link for, it states that the conclusion was based on various documents found in differen(t) countries. ‘The TTK issued the results of the study it conducted using documents in the U.S., England, Germany, Ottoman archives, and missionary documents. The results of the two year study have been published in a book entitled, Exile and Emigration'. What is wrong about this study? Are we perhaps not looking to(o) hard for a genocide?”

So these were facts from Western (and therefore pro-Armenian) sources, and Randy McDonald presented them as “conclusion of Turkish scholars.” Yes, but what are those conclusions based on? It’s the sources we have to look at, and if the sources come across as impartial... why can’t Randy McDonald bring himself to open up his liberal, compassionate mind to the other side of the story?

Randy McDonald’s response:

Contesting the fact of the Armenian genocide is rather like the fact of contesting the Holocaust. There's far too much historical data, existing inside and outside of Anatolia and the Caucasus, demonstrating the existence and execution of a systematic plan to kill as many Armenians as possible. Only hundreds of Armenian civilians died? That contention is risible, at best, contemptible at worst.

For the love of God. Bringing up an example of a genuine genocide to prove the existence of a falsified one. Does Randy McDonald realize the damage he is doing to the Jewish victims of the Holocaust, by dishonoring them in such a fashion?

Now we’re getting somewhere with our champion debater. The voluminous “historical data... demonstrating the existence and execution of a systematic plan to kill as many Armenians as possible.”

Is it fair of Randy McDonald to say the Turks claim “Only hundreds of Armenian civilians died?” (Basing this contention on someone’s opinion that Armenian deaths “did not even reach thousands.” While engaging in debate, we can’t look at what one isolated person claims, but on what the consensus is. For example, one Armenian site claimed 35 million Armenians were killed. The consensus is 1.5 million, so when I present my own arguments, it would be dishonest for me to say the Armenian position is that 35 million were killed.)

Turks don’t close their eyes to the immense suffering of the Armenian people, the way the Armenians and Randy McDonald close their eyes to the immense suffering of the Ottoman Turks/Muslims. No: 300,000 to 600,000 Armenians may have died from all causes combined. Famine, disease, harsh weather, combat.... and massacres.

As a probable Turk, Ikiz confirms this, by replying: “I don't proclaim that there where no atrocities, but as far as (I) know, these atrocities were conducted on both sides. But just to say that these atrocities conducted by the Ottoman Empire were a genicode, I think is too simple.”

That’s where the discussion died down, until I added my thoughts. Randy McDonald deleted them, and decided to get busy by providing us with his one-sided evidence. Let’s see what he came up with.

The Genocidal Evidence of Randy McDonald

He quoted the findings of a newspaper (The Guardian, from the U.K.; an article entitled, "A People Killed Twice") reporter (Julia Pascal), who simple-mindedly cut and pasted from the tons of Armenian genocide material that is out there, without questioning the legitimacy of any of it.

“The Reverend Henry H Riggs was an American missionary in the Ottoman Empire. His book, Days Of Tragedy In Armenia, is one of the most detailed genocide histories in English.”

The testimony of missionaries is not admissible. If you read the prayers of the missionaries, they considered it their Godly duty to do onto the heathen Turk. It is highly upsetting that in this day and age seemingly intelligent people still insist on pointing to the testimony of biased missionaries as their genocidal proof. (For more on these false Christians, turn here).

“Mehmet Sherif Pasha, former Turkish envoy to Sweden. Writing to the New York Times in 1921, he says, ‘The Armenian atrocities perpetrated under the present regime surpass the savagery of Genghis Khan and Tamburlaine’.”

Now that’s the kind of testimony that’s much more respectable, on the surface: A Turk’s. However, let’s keep in mind that the pro-Armenians have had a tendency to put words into the mouths of Turks (as they did with the 1926 Ataturk interview conducted by an unknown Swiss journalist in the Los Angeles Herald Examiner)... and some Turks, especially from the post-war period, were slavishly saying all kinds of things the Allies wanted to hear. Ferit Pasha established a new Ottoman government on March 4, 1919, going out of his way to “admit” crimes, hoping to butter up his foes for the oncoming peace talks... knowing the Turks were on the short end of the stick regarding the merciless Allies; the latter would go on to pronounce a death sentence upon the Turkish nation, the Sevres Treaty, that Ferit Pasha’s government would eagerly sign. Was this “Turkish envoy to Sweden” part of this illegitimate government? I don’t know. If he was in Sweden, how would he have known about genocidal goings-on, anyway?

It could be that this “Mehmet Sherif Pasha” knew something. First, however, we should find out more about the man, and what he wrote... otherwise, he could be just another person with an opinion, just like Lord Trevalyan who pronounced a “genocide” upon the Irish. I’m aware Armenian sites have put up practically everything damning about the Turks that has appeared in The New York Times from those days, but an Internet search failed to come up with the original.

I find it highly suspect that a Turk would accuse his countrymen of crimes surpassing “the savagery of Genghis Khan”; even if 600,000 Armenians were directly murdered, anyone who says that would be worse than Genghis Khan’s mass rub-outs already is suspect. And we are told Mehmet Sherif Pasha wrote his letter in 1921, accusing the “present regime,” which would be the short-lived administration of Ferit Pasha, established in 1919... Huh? The “Armenian atrocities” took place in the “1915” period, did they not?

One item I found, in a chronology of events: “1919 (November, 20) Two Armenian high category bureaucrats of the Ottoman government, Bogos Nubar Pasha and Sherif Pasha signed Armenian-Kurd independence document.” Could that be the same Sherif Pasha?

Let’s see; if Mehmet Sherif Pasha was an envoy to Sweden, that would make him part of the Ottoman government... so that little fact fits. If Mehmet Sherif Pasha went way overboard by dragging his country through the mud in his country’s most trying time, by taking the extraordinary step of writing to a foreign newspaper... that sounds like he had a propagandistic agenda. It doesn’t seem to me like Mehmet Sherif Pasha was what he appears to be, on the surface. This is all speculation, but the point remains the same: genuine truth-seekers cannot afford to take things at face value.

Next: “Dr E Lovejoy of the executive board of the American Women's Hospital wrote to the Times, ‘I was the first American Red Cross woman in France, but what I saw there during the Great War seems a love feast beside the horrors of Smyrna. When I arrived at Smyrna there were massed on the quays 250,000 wretched, suffering and screaming women beaten and with their clothes torn off, families separated and everybody robbed’.”

Uhhh... does “Smyrna” (which is “Christian code” for Izmir; why wasn’t this city called by what its owners had called their city for centuries, “Izmir”?) constitute evidence for the Armenian “Genocide”? Sharply in contrast, “Smyrna” gives us evidence against the possibility of the genocide. If the Turks were bent on exterminating the Armenians, why did they largely exempt from the relocation policy the Armenians who resided in this city and in other cities of the east and northeast (like “Constantinople,” which was “Christian code” for Istanbul?)

Again, like the untrustworthy missionaries, we have testimony from an individual who wears her Christianity on her sleeve, as the Red Cross was more religiously inclined during those days. They arrived in what was left of the Ottoman Empire as did the Near East Relief, not caring a darn about the equally suffering Muslim population. (Assuming she arrived after the war was over. Don’t the pro-Armenians love to claim the Turks burned their own city in retarded fashion, and massacred all the Greeks and Armenians? How could a quarter of a million women have survived under such circumstances?)

After the Greeks invaded “Smyrna,” weren’t the British so disgusted with the slaughtering ways of their designated attack dogs, that they deserted the Greeks? Why is latter day British journalist Julia Pascal focusing on the suffering of one people at the expense of another... just like her unscrupulous counterparts did in the old days?


Next, Randy McDonald offers the recognition of the Armenian “Genocide” from the European Parliament. (His co-conspirator, someone named “Georg,” would also cite the Swiss Parliament’s recognition a few posts later.) Sorry; opinions of biased non-historian politicians who are weaned on a one-sided version of events offer as much legitimacy as Randy McDonald, and does not prove an extermination policy by the Turks.

Next, there is a Washington Post account whose non-historian reporter journeyed to the myriad Armenian and “genocide scholar” sites, and picked up the random nonsense we get everywhere. As a source of evidence, we are treated to the testimony of racist U.S. Ambassador Henry Morgenthau, who wrote a dishonest book for propaganda purposes. We’re even treated to the ubiquitous Hitler quote that Hitler likely never said.

Is this what Randy McDonald offers as the voluminous “historical data... demonstrating the existence and execution of a systematic plan to kill as many Armenians as possible”? Who is he fooling here?

Next, he ridicules the site of the Turkish Ministry of Culture, offering the following highlights: The Ottoman Turks are not to be confused with the Republic of Turkey; both Turks and Armenians died, as well as Kurds and Jews; the charge of genocide doesn't fit the crime; the country was at war and feared Armenian disloyalty; there are no hard numbers to justify the case of genocide; evidence used to support the claims of genocide may have been fabricated; and because the Ottoman empire was on the wrong side of the First World War from the point of view of the United States and Britain, sources from those countries can't be trusted.

He opines: The Turkish argument throws out a lot of firsthand testimony as politically tainted.

Let’s see now: the imperialist allies hold secret treaties during the war to divvy up the carcass of the dying Sick Man. I’d say British, French and Russian testimony were pretty tainted, wouldn’t you? And as Peter Balakian reported in his “Burning Tigris,” we got first-hand information as to how Armenian colonists infiltrated dewy-eyed American intellectual circles, already conditioned by centuries of prejudicial accounts against the Terrible Turk. The British operated a chapter of their propaganda division, Wellington House, on U.S. soil, after cutting the cable from Germany, further influencing the media’s wholesale swallowing of anti-Turkish propaganda. All one needs to do is read the accounts of the brave few who knew better than to be suckered. Many, like the Briton C. F. Dixon-Johnson, are featured on this site.

As one other example, the American writer E. Alexander Powell ("The Struggle for Power in Moslem Asia," 1923) was painfully aware of the wholesale deception practiced in the West: “Now I can readily understand and make allowance for the public's errors and misconceptions, for it has had, after all, no means of knowing that it has been systematically deceived, but I can find no excuse for those newspapers which, clinging to a policy of vilifying the Turk, failed to rectify the anti-Turkish charges printed in their columns even when it had been proved to the satisfaction of most fair-minded persons that they were unjustified.”

Let’s take a moment with our champion debater and see exactly how convoluted the Turkish site’s claims are.

Answer True or False to the following:


1) The Ottoman Turks are not to be confused with the Republic of Turkey
2) Both Turks and Armenians died, as well as Kurds and Jews.
3) The charge of genocide doesn't fit the crime
4) The country was at war and feared Armenian disloyalty
5) There are no hard numbers to justify the case of genocide
6) Evidence used to support the claims of genocide may have been fabricated
7) Because the Ottoman empire was on the wrong side of the First World War from the point of view of the United States and Britain, sources from those countries can't be trusted.



To back up the answer of “True” for all of the above, I can present evidence from unbiased sources that has nothing to do with “Turkish propaganda.” If Randy McDonald can’t do the same (that is, use UNBIASED sources... unlike the unreliable sources he has been pointing to thus far [with the possible exception of the mysterious Sherif Pasha]) while insisting on answering “False” to the above, then why in the world would he still stomp his feet and hold his breath, childishly insisting there was TOO an Armenian “genocide”?

Randy McDonald smart-mouths: “If it were a legal argument, say pro-Armenian scholars, it would be rather like saying that my client wasn't there, couldn't have done it, has been charged with the wrong crime and it was self-defense.”

Guess what: Not all charged criminals are automatically guilty. Yes, there are actual court cases where the accused “wasn't there, couldn't have done it, has been charged with the wrong crime and it was self-defense.” This is why we have to look at evidence that is truly impartial; sure, it’s easy to take the say-so of whomever just because you’ve made up your mind based on your own prejudices... but making the evidence fit the crime is not an honorable thing to do.

Simplistically, Randy McDonald concludes: “Suffice it to say that the case seems very strong for a genocide of the Armenians ... as a legacy of earlier outbursts of mass violence directed at the country's Armenian minority (the attacks of the 1890s, for instance).” Yes, if one has already made up one’s mind without leaving one’s mind open for the truth, the case would appear very strong. Unfortunately, none of these excerpts would convince the genuine truth-seeker.

I wonder if Randy McDonald is even aware that the Armenian revolutionary groups began forming in the late 19th century, inciting violence, hoping for Muslims to return the favor, so that the Armenians could go to their European Christian protectors and get the free goodies they were looking for? Otherwise, why would the Turks have suddenly directed “mass violence... at the country's Armenian minority,” a minority that lived and prospered for around six centuries as the “loyal millet”? You become disloyal, you pay for the consequences... same as in any other country. Indeed, these events were also reported in the Western press as poor, innocent Armenians getting killed right and left by vicious Turks, just as with the 1915 events.... always ignoring the thousands of Turkish victims. This is why the truth-seeker must try to dig beneath the surface, as much as it hurts and goes against one’s prejudiced convictions.



“And--addressing someone else--it's no more intrinsically anti-Turkish to talk about Ottoman Turkey's genocide of the Armenians than it is anti-German to talk about Nazi Germany's genocide of the Jews.”

That someone else he is haughtily addressing would be me. The difference is, the genocide of the Jews is a proven fact, while “Ottoman Turkey's genocide of the Armenians” is far from a done deal. Randy McDonald certainly hasn’t proven anything. If he wishes to point to “evidence” of hearsay from those with an agenda, that is no way for him to get the respect that he desperately craves.

Randy McDonald then complains:

“Turkey and individual Turks seem to be almost absurdly defensive about the situation, identifying any mention of Ottoman Turkish complicity in the genocide--or, indeed, of any origins for the slaughters of the Armenians--as tantamount to an annhilationist anti-Turkish racism. That's, well, off-putting.”

He’s a sensitive soul, isn’t he? How tragic that he’s so easily put off. Another example of "off-putting," I'd say, is someone's accusing another of a particularly heinous crime without the legitimate evidence to support the charge.

Let’s see: the Christian West regards the Turk as almost beyond the realm of humanity since the Crusades. This is the chief reason why the Armenian “Genocide” — and whatever other handy genocide the Turks are accused of — can be so easily believable. The Turks are barbarians, of course they are guilty of genocide. Someone like Randy McDonald can’t understand this, because he’s a liberal, and his friends can tell us there’s not a racist bone in his body. Well, it’s not so simple. If one relies strictly on the evidence of parties who jumped to such conclusions because of their own ingrained beliefs against the Terrible Turk, and can’t manage the objectivity to look at the matter honestly because of this cradle-to-grave imprinting, OF COURSE that’s racism.

He goes on to demonstrate his bias by paying lip service to what he has not done (“The full context of the genocide should be explored”), only to settle on his main point: “(The Turks’) intellectually dishonest approach to the genocide. (‘What genocide? It was self-defense, anyway.’)”

Self-defense? I’d call it a matter of outright survival. When the mightiest world powers are knocking at your bankrupt gates in multiple fronts, and a rebellious minority rises up and hits your beleaguered armies in the back, how would any nation have reacted? The United States did no less with the Japanese for much less valid reasons, since Japanese-Americans were loyal and there was no immediate threat of invasion.

And the odd thing is... Randy McDonald needn’t take MY word for any of this; the evidence is right there, from the same kinds of sources he uses to prove his beloved genocide. Has he read Boghos Nubar’s 1919 Times of London letter demonstrating the belligerence of the Armenians? What compels a person like this to remain so steadfast, despite the overwhelming evidence demonstrating there could have been no state-sponsored extermination policy?


Ikiz responds:

“I feel obliged to reply to Randy's statement that Turks react ‘absurdly defensive’ about this subject. Is this strange? How would an American citizen react to a same accusation? Or a UK citizen? ... Since the day I have read this article on your blog, I have done some reading on the internet (and there are really a lot of sites, defending both viewpoints) and to repeat myself, I am not convinced by the documents/articles I have read.
I just found out that there were victims at both sides. A lot of Ottoman turks were also massacred. Why isn't this mentioned anywhere?”

What could the reason be besides “anti-Turkish racism”? Turkish lives simply are not considered as meaningful as Armenian/Greek lives. Otherwise, why hasn’t liberal and compassionate Randy McDonald wasted a breath on these Muslim victims, while he’s aggressively convinced about the injustice against Armenians?

Ikiz requests: “Pls take the effort to read objectively,” Well, that would take some doing!

Here is Randy McDonald’s explanations; first, to “How would an American citizen react to a same accusation? Or a UK citizen?":

If Americans, or Britons, committed similar acts, then perhaps you'd expect similar defensiveness. But then again, in Germany--another country which lost badly in a world war, suffering tremendous devastation and loss of life at home in the context--you don't see that defensiveness over the fact of the genocides committed, against Jews, Poles, and other Europeans.

Oh, was there a genocide committed by the Nazis against the Poles and other Europeans? The Nazis certainly mistreated Europeans in occupied countries, but that’s a far cry from what the Nazis committed against the Jews and Gypsies in systematic fashion. Perhaps Randy McDonald’s definition of the word “genocide” is “mistreatment”? The word has become so watered down, anyone can make “genocide” mean whatever they want it to mean.


Let’s get this straight: If I, as an American, came across charges that I know weren’t true (for example, that my government had a “Wannsee Conference” like extermination plan against all Vietnamese because there were massacres committed by isolated troops who went berserk, as in My Lai), you had better believe I would be defensive. Randy McDonald resorts again to the German parallel, comparing his unproven Armenian genocide to the real fact of the Holocaust. What kind of a “debater” does that make him? He could only use such an argument with an opponent who already puts the Armenian “Genocide” on the same plane as the Holocaust. However, the position of his opponents is that there was no Armenian “Genocide.” (And he has done a highly unsuccessful job of proving it.) Is he existing in this planet’s reality?



As far as why Turkish massacres are ignored:

Well, I've mentioned it above in the thread. More to the point, the deaths of Ottoman Turkish and other Muslim civilians aren't covered in the literature on the Armenian genocide simply because that literature deals with the Armenian genocide, not with the deaths of non-Armenians in the First World War.

If he mentioned it above in the thread, I easily missed it... just as he misses the point about paying lip service is not the same as holding murdered Turkish lives as importantly as the Armenian ones he harps on.

And can you get a load of that simple-minded logic!

The Armenians revolt. The Armenians commit wholesale massacres of the defenseless Turkish population, because every Turkish man is needed at the front. Meanwhile, 50,000 (mainly Ottoman) Armenian guerillas operate freely behind-the-lines, slicing and dicing to their heart’s content... especially after the Russians come in with 150,000 more Armenian fighters (according to Boghos Nubar), and more especially after the Russians leave. More Armenians kill Turks than the other way around. These are the very actions that lead to the Armenians’ relocation. The Armenians who die from massacres are mainly targets of Kurds (usually vengeance-minded for what the Armenians had done to Kurdish families) and Arab bandits, along with a few criminal Turks. Most die from famine and disease, as do the nearly 3 million Turks, and if you believe these Armenians died as a result of genocide, I can tell you a story about the Irish Famine.

These events are inextricable from the Armenian “Genocide.” How chauvinistic of Randy McDonald to tell us they’re a whole ‘nother story. It’s like Justin McCarthy teaches us... if we were to relate the Americans’ Civil War by telling only the deaths of the north or the south, then that historic episode would also come across as a genocide.

This is what’s called looking at ALL sides of the story, and that’s what Armenian historians and false genocide scholars (as Helen Fein, who sneers at even the idea of the “other side of the story,” as you read above) deliberately don’t do. Neither does Randy McDonald, because he has already made up his mind who were the bad guys, and who were the innocents. That’s why he doesn’t feel comfortable with letting convincing facts and figures stand... he dishonorably deletes them, so his reader would mostly read his preferred side of the story.


He concludes, as of this writing, by pointing to an article (in http://www.stradigma.com/english/special/articles_02.html) and objects to the following passage:

"Atom Egoyan's ‘Ararat’ is a million-dollar propaganda endeavor in which every scene from those things the Armenians tried to make a symbol of for themselves for years like Noah's Ark to Mount Agri, from the innocence of ASALA to allegations of genocide, from the Armenian spirit to words attributed to Hitler, from Lake Van to employing a Turk to play the homosexual Cevdet smells hatred, rancor and revenge with a view to creating an obscene image of the Turk on the viewer."

Here’s what Randy McDonald tells us:

Inasmuch as I'd be classified by the author as homosexual, and inasmuch as how I fail to see how employing a Turkish actor to play someone who's gay "smells [of] hatred," um. That the site's description of Armenians suggests that they consistently acted as a unified and subversive population is somewhat suspicious, particularly as contrasted to more recent narratives of the Armenian genocide which emphasize the role of sympathetic Turks in saving Armenian lives.

Oh, boy.

Once again, Randy McDonald is in a different sphere of reality. He prefers to dismiss the intelligence conveyed in the entire article by conveying the idea that the writer is a homophobic bigot. Does that translate to... “cheap shot”?

Unfortunately, we don’t live in a utopian world where people of all sexual preferences are treated equally. The reason why “Rambo” isn’t gay, along with just about every other movie hero, is because practically no society exists where homosexuality is seen without stigma. This was the clever notion behind the now famous line in the TV series “Seinfeld,” once a “negative” comment is made about gays: “Not that there’s anything wrong with that.” Yes, more advanced societies tell us we need to be tolerant, but we are not yet at the point where gays are perceived as role models.

So can anyone question why Atom Egoyan decided to add one more propagandistic blow by making his main Turkish character a homosexual? Homosexuals are largely not seen as “normal,” whether some of us like to admit to that fact or not; thus, in other words, even those of us who would defend the rights of gays would not ordinarily welcome the sight of two men French-kissing on the subway as “natural.” (Now that is very unfair, as to the homosexual male, such would be very natural; but we’re talking about the perception of the masses, not the gay perspective.) This was one of the Armenian-Canadian director’s ways to “creating an obscene image of the Turk on the viewer."

Ottoman-Armenians “consistently acted as a unified and subversive population”? Why, it’s shocking! Randy McDonald is in disbelief!

No one doubts many Ottoman-Armenians wanted nothing to do with their fanatical revolutionary leaders. Unfortunately, once they got a sampling of what happened to them (“Ka-Pow!” “Ka-Pow!”), they had no choice but to comply. Whether Ottoman-Armenians were coerced or whether they joined their rebellion actively, the fact remains: the Ottoman-Armenians as a community proved untrustworthy during a desperate life and death struggle. Any nation would have moved them out of the way, under the same circumstances. Many nations would probably have done far worse, as Arthur Tremaine Chester gave as a hypothetical example with America’s blacks.

Randy McDonald concludes: “Balance, here and elsewhere, in arguments is important.”

Brother! So easy to say... and we all know talk is cheap.

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© Holdwater
tallarmeniantale.com/Randy-McDonald.htm
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