2169) Armenian Allegations And The Truth – With Archival Documents by TurkishDigest

Oct 20th, 2007

Following is translation of Chapter 9-B of “Arsiv Belgeleriyle Tehcir - Ermeni Iddialari ve Gerçekler [Armenian Allegations and the Truth – With Archival Documents]”, Necdet Sevinç, Avrasya Bir Yayin, (Ankara, 2003).

Here, the author chronicles the Armenian atrocities against the Muslim population prior to the deportation order of April 1915. There is immense evidence in Ottoman archives clearly proving the Ottoman decree of relocation was in self defense. If only the Diaspora could face up to historical facts.

Chapter IX-B

Various Armenian Methods to Kill Muslims

The situation faced by the Turks as well as the Ottoman Empire during World War I can be understood upon reading the following information. Hunchak Organization which believed that an Armenian Republic could be founded by terrorist methods[1] published organized instructions on how to kill the Muslims, and how to demolish the cities. One of the articles from the “Hinçakyan Ihtilal Komitesi Azasi’nin Vezaifine (Vazifesine) Dair Talimat” [The Duties of Hunchak Revolutionary Committee Members] instructions booklet is as follows:

Article 8: Each Committee should have a chief executioner with a team of executioners around him who share his values. Duties of this team include getting rid of those who disobey within and around the committee with the orders of the Committee. There are three methods of punishment: (1) warning, (2) beating, (3) death. There are three methods of death: (1) dagger, (2) revolver, (3) choking or poisoning.”

Methods of blowing up buildings are described as: “…Methods to be used for blowing up homes and other buildings: (1) solid dynamite, (2) dynamite solution, salicylic chemical, (3) derivatives of explosives prepared with gunpowder!”[2]

Another similar document titled “Müdafaa-i Sahsiyye Için Talimat [Instructions of Self Protection]” and bearing the signature of Toman was printed in 1910 and was distributed by the thousands. Although it poses as a self protection, this document actually prescribes various ways of wiping out Muslims. On page 4, after explaining which weapons should be used under each circumstance, it goes on to explain how to raid on villages and set them on fire as follows:

“There are three kinds of villages. (1) Armenian villages among other Armenian villages that are habited by Armenians, (2) Villages habited by Armenians but located among villages which are habited by others, (3) Villages where Armenians live altogether with others.

“In all three types of villages, organizations bear no difference. They all should join the “forces” with their ammunition and weapons. The forces are divided as (1) stationary and (2) mobile. Each force should be assigned a chief and an assistant to the chief. The mobile and stationary forces should each elect an experienced chieftain for their village. These chieftains will be the ultimate authority in the villages and all the forces in that village will be under his command. These chieftains will be the representatives of the government and of the armed forces in their villages. All village chieftains will get together to elect three persons in their district as temporary armed command commissions. These government representatives (Erkani Harbiye Heyeti) and the commander will have the power to collect arms from disabled users and redistribute them to more experienced persons during skirmishes. Messengers should be formed to inform nearby village forces in case of a surprise attack on a village. If the Armenians living as minority among others find themselves under attack and if they are unable to get help in time, they should collect their valuables and move in to other Armenian villages.

“In villages where the enemy numbers are fewer than Armenians, the former should be asked to leave if they have not done so on their own. Those who do not leave could be taken as hostage depending on the situation and the decision of the government.

“During skirmishes, doors will be kept open and those who are escaping from the army or police forces will be allowed to enter. Civilians wandering around without weapons should be forbidden. The villagers have to pay for any weapons lost to the enemy. Weapons taken over from the enemy belong to whoever confiscates them.”

“In order to attack villages:
Fortification points of enemy villages must be known.
The escape routes must be decided beforehand and kept under control of the outpost.
Villages that may aid to enemy must be explored beforehand and must be prevented.
Only three sides of the village to be attacked must be kept under siege. One side must appear like an escape route for the residents. (If contained from all four sides, the enemy may counter attack and endanger our victory.) Only a small contingent should be hidden on the fourth side to press and to inflict casualties on them. Actually, the real reason to leave an open side is to assure speedy victory by dividing the enemy’s forces, more so than allowing an escape route to them.
Attacking at dawn would surprise the enemy. Attacking earlier would cause us losses while waiting for the light.
In order to create chaos and commotion, fires must be started in different places at the same time and expanded. Necessary equipment must be prepared beforehand.
If there are no cavalrymen among the attackers, spare horses must be brought along to carry the wounded and the dead bodies into the Armenian villages so that they cannot be identified.

“A few days before the attack, strong and reliable agents selected by our Chief Armed Forces (Erkani Harbiye Heyeti) must be sent to the targeted village. They must stay there as long as it requires to collect the necessary information. Consequent attack preparations must be planned based on these agents’ reports.”[3]

While the Turkish Army was fighting on multiple fronts, thousands of kilometers away from their homes, Armenians were busy preparing brutal plans to eradicate their neighbors of 900 years. An Armed Chief Commander is going to be elected in each city, every Armenian will carry out the orders of this Chief of Armed Forces, agents will be sent to whichever village will be attacked, fire will be started in various places at dawn, and bullets will be raining on the Turks who flee their homes in panic. This was their plan.

Armenians who could publish in their newspapers[4] their belief that the Turks must be eradicated to achieve a peaceful existence on earth, became agents of atrocities that even the most fearsome and sadistic murderers could not imagine. Thus they prepared their end by earning hatred of Turks who ran for reprisals.

Ottoman Government collected soldiers on July 21, 1914 and declared war on November 11th of the same year. Armenians of Zeitun did not miss this opportunity and while the government was busy with war preparations, they started their rebellion on August 17, 1914.

Armenian rebellions will not be described in this book. Only Van and Zeitun rebellions will be mentioned as samples to justify the relocation order of the Ottoman Government.

Zeitun Rebellion

The first Armenian rebellion following the order to enlist men for the army started on August 17, 1914 in Zeitun, which is now the Suleymanli borough of Kahraman Maras. Armenians stopped paying their taxes to the government following their call to arms. They ran away from serving the Ottoman Military, and called the citizens to rebel against the government.

They held up young men on their way to enroll in the army, and robbed them. Those coming from mountain villages were ambushed on the road and killed. They raided a group of 100 Andinir Turks on their way through Ferens on August 17th while the latter were returning home after being discharged from the army. They killed most of these Turks and stole their money. They opened fire on the gendarmerie who were trying to collect vehicles from the village. At the Kaymakampinari site on the road to Maras, they killed some of the Turkish civilians of Besanli village.[5]

In order to ambush the ammunition which was going to be transferred from Maras to the gendarmerie forces in Zeitun, they laid in ambush at the least known passages and out of place roads. When the ammunition safely arrived at its destination because of successful rerouting, they ambushed the gendarmerie forces on their return path and killed 6 of the group of 17 and heavily wounded the rest.

They attacked the gendarmerie patrolling Zeitun and the Maras governor who was sent there to contain the unrest. They attacked the municipality, laid siege on government buildings and took over ammunition and weapons. They demanded release of detained Armenians.

The government forces followed the rebels into the Tekiyye Monastery which is located up on a hill overseeing all of Zeitun. However, the rebels numbering 700-800 killed the governor of Maras along with 25 gendarmerie soldiers and wounded the remaining 36. These armed bandits were able to run away using their location and night time conditions to their advantage. They killed any Turk along their way and set on fire barns, houses, and villages on their escape route.

In the villages of Dönekli, Akçarli, Kümperli, Fatmali, Hartalp, and Önek alone, 27 barns, 3 estate homes, and 62 houses were set ablaze. They also took with them the farm animals belonging to these village folks.[6]

Upon following the bandits’ activities, it was discovered that these uprisings were staged to aid the British invasion forces. Melkom, one of the ringleaders of Zeitun confessed that “the leaders had taken orders to aid the British forces landing on the Mediterranean Coast from shores of Iskenderun”. It was understood that the planner and leader of this operation were the Hinchak Committee Chief Çakiroglu Panos, his brother Yenidünya, Agyaoglu with his 4 sons, Solakoglu Mesrop and Emanuel. They all belonged to the wealthiest families in town and they had been bestowed high compliments by the Sultanate prior to this event. The 61 bandits apprehended included the bishop as well. Some of their weapons turned out to be stolen from the Turkish Army.[7]

Cemal Pasa also mentions in his memoirs that these uprisings were staged with the orders of the British and French Commanders. He writes; “It was obvious to the enemy commanders that uprisings in the area starting with Iskenderun coasts, Dörtyol, Musabba, Halep, Antep, Urfa, and Zeitun would insert a wedge between Syria and Anatolia. At a time when the Turkish armed forces were engaged in fierce battles in Chanakkale, against the French and British forces, their commanders ordered the Armenians to start uprisings in these districts.”[8]

When Bandits Took Over Van

At a time when Turkish Armed Forces were engaged in fierce battles in Chanakkale, Armenians volunteered to collaborate with their enemies French and British on the South and obeyed the Russian army commanders in the East. It is understood from the telegraph sent to the Russian Ambassador by Temren, the Russian Council in Van, that planning of the Russian invasion started in 1908. Temren asks how he should explain the existence of Russian nationals among the 12 Armenian rebels caught in the underground water systems.[9] The reply he received is not yet known to us.

Shortly afterwards, many adventurous Armenians posing as educators, priests, deputies, inspectors, etc. gathered in the Tashnak headquarters of Van, which the entire world knows is administered and manipulated by Russians.

The ringleaders were Ishan and Aram. Both of these adventurers were Caucasus Armenians. Aram Manukian was born in Susta town of Caucasus. Upon graduating from Armenian elementary and middle schools, he settled in the mountains and adopted terrorist means. Because he had masterminded the murdering[10] of Van Mayor Ali Riza Pasha by Alev Basyan in Batum, he was condemned to death. However, at the last minute he benefited form the general amnesty declared to honor the declaration of First Mesrutiyet [Constitutional Government]. After being pardoned, he taught for a short while, but then retreated to the mountains.[11]

Ishan on the other hand was condemned to death for crimes he committed in Russia. But, he saved his skin by escaping into Turkey.

After declaration of the constitutional government by the Ottoman Empire, Van’s fate was left to these two. Two others who were not much different from this duo were the Van deputies in the Ottoman Assembly: Vremian and Papazian.

These ringleaders organized the Van rebellion on behalf of the Russians and closed down the religious seminary school located in the Akhdamar island of Van. They seized the seminary’s assets and assigned the Tashnak committee members to the remote villages as religious clergy. A terrorist like themselves named Yeznik was dressed as minister and assigned to the post of Catogiggos’ assistant. A bloodthirsty a minister named Daniel who escaped form Istanbul since he had run into trouble with the security forces for organizing terrorist activities in Istanbul and various cities was assigned as advisor to him.

Others who joined the team of terrorist ringleaders were; a rebel named Rafael from Iran and Vartan and Osep, ill famed bandits of Van mountains from Karçikan.[12] who posed as an inspector of Armenian schools, inspector of another school named Serkis,

Even though these people were bandits, they found strong support. Their closest allies were the British, French, and Russian counselors. Even Ishan, who was condemned to death in Russia, achieved Russian protection once he entered into Turkey. Most important strategies were being discussed at the Russian Councilors office with these ringleaders whose level of human abuse we explained above.[13]

Atrocities started to occur in Van, when these bandits became administrators of the Tashnak Committee.

Immediately following the mobilization of young men into the army, Armenians started to set on fire Turks’ homes. The water works were clogged with animal corpses, water fountains and wells were polluted with the same. In an effort to provoke the majority of the population in the city, church bells were rang loudly during the call for the Muslim prayers. Oil lamps, which were lit on top of minarets to inform Moslems when it was time to break their fast during Ramadan, were shot and extinguished. Muslims were unable to go to the Mosque of Kizilcami because they were gunned on their way as the road passed through an Armenian district. Eventually, the call to prayer was no longer chanted, and the mosque became desolate, so its name was changed to Mosque under captive.[14] The situation in rural districts was more unbearable. A problem about the number of sheep turned into a riot in the Timar Township on February 14, 1915. The number of rebels exceeded one thousand at no time. Armenians armed with Russians pistols attacked the villages. They attacked the gendarmerie unit stationed at the Banat Village. The soldiers and their commander Captain Süleyman Efendi were killed.

Upon declaration of war, Russian soldiers along with Armenian volunteer battalions crossed the border into Turkish territory, and the local Armenians took up arms. They killed a few gendarmeries in the Havasor sub district, and Governor Kadi Ismail Efendi in the District of Gevas. They attacked police stations and cut telegraph lines on the Gevas – Bitlis road. They rained bullets for 8 hours on the house, where the ruler of the sub-district Akan of Mush was staying with the gendarmeries accompanying him on their way to Kümes Village. Commander of Bitlis gendarmerie regiment along with his detachment was ambushed on their way to Hizan at the Karkar Valley. Many fell, during the fight that lasted 7 hours between the Turkish armed forces and Armenian bandits.[15] In some districts, the revered township governors’ homes were set on fire.[16]

Rebellion spread out all over Van, when teacher Osep was captured in Sitak with a distribution list of weapons and caches enough to arm an army corps. Well organized and heavily armed Armenians who seemed to be applying a pre-determined plan started slaughtering Muslims.

They blocked roads to Van, in order to prevent aid from reaching there. General Mafolski summarizes how the Armenians devoured the small gendarmerie force stationed in Van, how the Turks formed the 5th Squadron under the leadership of Kazim Bey to send to Van, that this squadron blockaded the Armenians in the citadel and the city center and how they came to the aid of Armenians as: “Upon hearing about the Van incident, it was decided to send General Turihin’s forces, later followed by General Nikolayef’s forces to aid the Armenians”.[17]

During the uprising, the Ottoman Bank, Management of Public Debts of the Ottoman Empire, Post Office, and the Government Center were all blown up. Hamit Aga Kislasi (army barracks) and Muslim quarters were set on fire. Russian, French hats and Ottoman style fur caps with ‘Armenia is saved’ scribbled on them were found in trenches during the searches that followed.[18] Armenians who massacred the Muslims of Mahmudiye, converted the mosques into stables.

The District Governor informed the Central Government of the Armenian atrocities with a report dated March 15, 1915. Van Mayor Cevdet Bey’s report which was written 10 days later was more worrisome. Mayor Cevdet Bey reported on March 25, 1915, that the Armenians had undergone huge preparations to allow the Russian invasion of Van with great ease.[19]

During this time, in Çölemerik, the Nasturians rebelled with Russian support. The limited number of Van gendarmerie forces was not sufficient to engulf the rebellion. Mayor Cevdet Bey had to retreat the night of May 16-17 under Armenian and Russian pressure. Armenians started slaughtering Muslims in the city of Van which was now invaded by Russia.

The German Ambassador Wangenheim explained the mayhem in his report to his Ministry of Foreign Affairs on May 25, 1915; “Armenians have rebelled in Van, attacked the Muslim villages and the citadel. The Turkish forces stationed at the citadel lost 300 soldiers. As a result of street fights which lasted for days, the city is now under rebel hands. On May 17th, the city was invaded by Russians, Armenians have sided with the enemy and started slaughtering Muslims. Eighty thousand Muslims have started to run away towards Bitlis.[20]

Armenians who went on a killing spree of Muslims in Van, set on fire the house districts and shopping areas to eliminate those who took shelter in their homes and work places. We learn that the city has been burning for 4 days from a report dated May 21, 1915.

Hundred Thousand Muslims Were Slaughtered

Mustafa Gül writes [21]that 2,500 Muslims were slaughtered by 10,000 Armenians after Van fell to the enemy. This estimate which does not show any reference is quite conservative even if it only reflects those killed in the city center. Hulki Sarol, and Ergünöz Akçora who published valuable documents on the subject, are both in agreement that well above 10,000 Muslims were killed. Armenian sources that aim to keep the numbers they killed to a minimum also confirm that at least 10,000 Turks were killed. For example, the Armenian newspaper Gochnak, published in the USA reports on May 14, 1915 while announcing that Van is no longer an Ottoman city, and stating that all government buildings and army barracks are set on fire that “only 1,500 Turkish women and children remain in the city”[22], and we know these remaining 1,500 were also wiped out later by Armenian militia.[23]

Ergünöz Akçora who wrote; “Turks living in Van were unbearably violated by Russians and Armenians. Thousands of them were thrown into Lake Van to drown.” He also states that “One million Muslims had to emigrate due to unbearable Armenian atrocities … 700,000 of these emigrees, died on the way due to harsh road conditions. This information is available at the report presented by British Ministry of Foreign Affairs to the High Commissioner.”[24] Russians and Armenains who relied on the Russian forces attempted genocide of the Muslim inhabitants of the city center and vicinity of Van, such that; the number of Muslims killed on Agiro mountain in order to wipe out all settlers of Gevas and Vastan exceeded 3,000.[25] Those wiped out in Mahmudin and its district villages reached 2,000.”[26]

In an attempt to conceal their murders Armenians were careful to wipe out witnesses as well, so around the Seyi Village, they literally cut to pieces 300 Jews who were passing through Hakkari as documented in the archives. Only between the villages Engil and Vastan, the number of Muslims murdered exceeded 10,000. Over 40,000 Muslim women, children and elderly were killed on the Sahotu Bridge by Russian soldiers either by being thrown into the water, or by being stabbed with daggers and knives. As mentioned in the archive documents “It can be concluded from the birth records of the Dersaadet (Istanbul), that 100,000 Muslims perished in Van and its vicinity.”[27]

It is understood that even those who were escaping from the cities and villages were traced and murdered ferociously on the roads by Russian and Armenians. Four hundred people who were trying to cross by boats to West coast of Lake Van were gunned down or thrown back into the lake to drown around Adilcevaz and Ercis Villages where they had to take refuge due to stormy weather conditions.[28]

Russians who collaborated in these murders cannot boast about this episode of their history.

Chief General Armed Forces of Russia wiped out 400,000 Turks from Ottoman Europe in order to clear land for Bulgaria during the 7 months following the 1877-1878 war and applied the same method to establish a puppet Armenian state during World War I.

This collaboration is so obvious that, the day following the occupation of Van, Russian Tsar and Russian Minister of Foreign Affairs Sazanoff, each published open declarations “to thank the Armenians for their aid”.[29]

Russians assigned Aram Manukian (whose infamous atrocities as militia were mentioned in earlier chapters) as the mayor of Van[30] and allowed him to select his officers among Armenians.[31] This meant approving Manukian’s murders and providing venue for new massacres. While Lake Van was filled with the blood of innocent victims, Manukian would be promoted The Minsiter of Internal Affairs of Armenia for his genocide efforts.[32]

Lake Van, a Pool of Blood

In an effort to prove how justifiable, unavoidably self protectionist, conscientiously humanitarian the Ottoman decision to relocate the Armenians was, one must observe the loathsome, brutal, savage atrocities committed by Armenians against the Muslims prior to the decree as recorded in archive documents. Here we will give a very brief summary. While the young Turkish men were defending their borders, their villages were burned down, under aged girls, young brides and mature women were brutally raped, mostly in front of crippled war veterans who were honorable men.

Sit Him on the Stake

Deputy of the Ottoman Government from Erzurum Karekin Pastirmacian and his bandits of 1200 men roamed around Muslim villages after the Russians violated their border with Turkey and assaulted women with rape, torture. Pregnant women’s bellies were cut open to remove their babies from their womb instantly killing both. Apart from killing the bride of Kales Aga, from the Village of Kayak, his sons and other family members were killed by setting them on stake piles. In the Agcaviran Village of Mus, Musa and Sadullah Beg along with 10 of their friends were killed in the Kire District when their eyes were carved out.[33]

Babies were Bayoneted

Armenian Militia threw away up in the air a new born baby and butchered him by holding a sword right under him in the Kalafa Village belonging to Yomra sub-district of Trabzon. A lot of Muslims were ferociously murdered and their bodies were burned in the Ipsil, Haçavra and Solday Villages of Maçka.[34]

Strangled Masses

Even though their chief named Molla Hasan had surrendered with a white flag, the 57 residents (27 males, 12 women, and 18 children) of the Mirgehi Village from the Mahmudin sub-district of Van were strangled to death by the Armenian Militia who took away the girls with them.[35]

Broiled on Skewers

A child from the village of Çariksiz was impaled on a spit and broiled like a leg of lamb. Four Turks’ dead bodies were found with their hands tied and their genitals stuck in their mouths between the Ahurik and Avzerik villages. In the village of Kavlit, a 7 year old girl named Fatma and a 9 year old Gülfaz were raped by their front and back numerous times. A 70 year old man named Alo from the same village was killed with his jaw bones broken by a dagger and his genitals inserted in his mouth.[36]

Burned Alive

While a woman named Zeliha in the Village of Ustuci was baking bread in the oven, they threw her six month old son into the fire. When Zeliha resisted, the bandits pushed one of her legs into the fire as well. (This woman survived and lived for years after this event.) Many children were also collected from the same village and burned on bon fires.[37]

Burned Inside Haystacks

All the Muslim men of the Kotur sub-district of Van were filled into a hay stack and set on fire. The women were gathered at another location and were raped. They raped and killed the town chief’s son as well as his daughter, Gülbeyaz.[38]

Raped in Front of Their Dad

Another family victimized by Armenian atrocities was that of an accountant named Hasan Efendi from Van’s Halilaga district. He was terrorized along with his wife, daughter and his brother Hüseyin Efendi who was a teacher. A retired accountant named Besir Efendi’s daughters Hayriye and Sadiye were raped in front of their mom, dad and their uncle Hayri Efendi.[39]

We also learn from the Van Commander’s report that the same district’s 90 year old religious leader imam Isa Efendi, 70 year old retired teacher Rasif Efendi and Hayretiye Mosque’s imam Haci Dervis Efendi were forced to ride around the town on donkeys for a few days. Later, their beards and moustache were cut off and human feces were smeared on their faces. Later, they were killed by being torn apart in piecemeal.

They killed retired teacher Rasif Efendi’s 60 year old wife by inserting a wooden log inside her vagina.[40] Armenians who forcibly entered into Haci Yakup Aga’s house tore apart people who were hiding inside. They were: wife of Çilingiroglu Süleyman Aga from the Halilaga district, retired accountant blind Halil Efendi, an accounting inscriber named Sitki Efendi and his wife, Haci Efendi’s young wife and his five children (two boys and three girls). Later, Armenians killed 200 Muslim women and children.[41]

They tore apart the children

Armenians tore into pieces with dagger, the seven children of Seher after tearing her children away from her hands in the Mehmet Bey district of Van. Seher was Sadullah’s daughter and Cemal’s wife.

Blind Hamza’s son Abbas’ wife and their three daughters were torn into pieces. Halil Çavus’s wife Ayse, her sister, 80 year old Haci Abdullah Efendi and his wife were terribly beaten and killed by smashing their heads with stones.[42] They urinated on the face of Mülazim Abdurrahman Efendi of Sabane district, later beat him up terribly and then killed him.[43]

Families Slaughtered

Guardian Ali from Emin Pasa district, his wife, his daughter in law, his two cousins, and military official Bayram’s 7 year old son; Seyyit Çavus’ son Mustafa’s wife, her two children and Haci Kaya’s son Ibrahim Çavus’s young wife were strangled to death.[44] Ayse, wife of Kasim from Camii Kebir District was forced to witness her two son’s strangling before she was also strangled to death.

In the Tebriz Kapisi district, 17 family members of Salih who was doing his military duty at the frontline were killed by tearing into pieces. The victims included Salih’s wife, 4 children aged 5 to 15, his brother, sister and their families.[45] Only from the Selim Bey district, over 300 Muslims were killed by being slaughtered.[46]

Burned in Hospitals

Seyhane Village’s 300 residents who were on their way to Van were rerouted to Zive Village by armed gunmen and killed en-masse. Forty-five people of Meydan Village and one fourth the total population of Timez, Ercik and Havasor villages were killed. From the Molla Kasim Village, 70 year old Fevzi Aga’s head was placed on his wife’s lap and cut off there. His daughter in law Hayriye was killed. Seventy people were killed from this village. Two of the brides named Fatma and Zahide from this village threw themselves from the bridge into Mermitçay river to escape their captors who were forcibly taking them to Van. Similarly, 17 young girls from the Bagdasan and Karaagaç villages were taken towards Russia.[47] Eighty patients who could not find transportation from Van Hospital were burned alive.[48]

From the Katirci street of Van, Peynirci Recep’s son Mahmut’s 4 sons along with his wife, and Lieutenant Hüsnü Efendi’s 12 year old daughter were taken forcibly. The girl was raped repeatedly even though she was shot in the head.[49]

Nailed by his Hands

Second Lieutenant Sükrü Efendi’s 80 year old uncle Tayyar of Van was nailed to his door by his hands. His nose and ears were cut off and later his chin was also cut off before he was eventually killed.

He was drawn through his Mouth

During the Gevas uprising, the mayor sent Van representatives Munip Bey and Vremian of the Ottoman parliament to Gevas for prevention of bloodshed. While they were in the government house, they saw an out of control oxen cart approaching them. Upon getting close to the cart they saw the terribly mutilated body of the Gevas Müftü. Armenians had drawn a stake large enough to be an axe handle inside this 70 year old man’s mouth. They had nailed his tongue on this wood after cutting it off. In order to fit his body into the small box behind the oxcart, they had cut off his legs and placed his shoes and head turban in his lap. Before putting his corpse on the oxcart and probably before killing him, they had burned his beard and his hands.[50]

Meanly Raped

Toviroglu Misak’s bandits in January 1915, killed all the Muslim population of the Karamese Village of Mus and raped the women. In addition, they also killed 12 people from the Molla Baba and Heskervan Villages, everyone from the Ertiçek, Agdad, Vartitipi, Semerseyh villages, and most people of the Frenk, Bulanik, Honk, Küt, Norgagag, Komla, Kamran, Semtros, Alvezerek, and Kötanan villages. All the inhabitants of the Kazanan village were gathered and burned alive.

Ottoman parliamentarian Karekin Pastirmacian’s bandits killed almost all the villagers of Yeramis and Agcaviran. In Malazgirt 53 villages were burned and razed; in the vicinity of Lize, the wounded Turkish soldiers returning home were put to the sword by this same parliamentarian’s bandits.

Berber Ilyas’s son Sevket and his two wives from Malazgirt’s Beksam village were forced to watch raping of their daughters. When they requested their child to be returned to them, they were killed atrociously by Kelekçi Simon, Kalekasabali Mardivagik of Dolabas village and Sirop of Kürek village.

The Sheikh whose Head was Skinned

The commencement court member of Malazgirt’s Adaköyü Hüseyin Bey and Administration member Samil Bey were killed savagely by their Armenian servant. The Armenians who entered major general Ibrahim Pasa’s brother Ahmet Bey’s house ordered his wife to serve them drinks after removing her clothes. When she refused, they raped her oldest daughter. Also, strangled by Armenians were the notable citizens of Mus, Haci Murat, Resit, Günayli Haci Mehmet, Cafer, Temir, Abdullah, Yusuf, Mehmet Han, and Nadir Han. They threw all the residents of 15 villages belonging to Cündi Aga of Cibran Tribe with heavy weights tied to their feet and horse shoes nailed on their feet into the Gülnihal lake of Murat River. Armenians burned the Muslims who were emigrating through Mukilli road after filling them inside the Seyhelkarip dervish lodge. They skinned a religious man named Seyh Abdullah Gaffar.[51]

All atrocities endured by Turks as documented above were collected from Government archives’ Ottoman documents as referenced in Mehmet Hocaoglu’s research. The truth of these events is not doubted by any historian. Mehmet Hocaoglu referred to the evidence from archives in his publishing of 1973-1974. The same events were later mentioned in the book published by Government Archives in 2001.

It is deemed necessary to mention the authenticity of these “unbelievable” torture methods as they are described in detail. Similar stories that human beings like us find hard to believe have been published from time to time in the Military History Document Magazine of Military Historic and Strategic Research Department (ATASE).

In order to show that Turks were deliberately wiped out according to plan in their home country with violent methods, in other words victimized by genocide, we wish to present two documents:

Armenian Murders at Mergehu Village
Names of those who were killed
Methods of Annihilation

Abdi’s son Haci Ibrahim
Shooting and drawing the sword

Haci Ibrahimis son Abdi
Shooting and drawing the sword

Abdi’s son Reso
Beating and cutting

Ömer’s son Sado
Beating and cutting

Reso’s son Oso
Beating and cutting

Canko’s son Kulu
Passing the sword through his eye

Canko’s son Musu
Passing the sword through his eye

Molla Hamit’s son Emin
Passing the sword through his eye

Hamit’s son Molla Abdullah
Passing the sword through his eye

Haci’s son Ibo
Passing the sword through his eye

Haci’s son Sado
Passing the sword through his eye

Canko’s son Abdullah

Ahmet’s son Ibo
Splitting his abdomen

Ibo’s son Ismail
Burning alive

Özü’s son Musto
Shooting with gun

Seyyo’s son Mahmut

Birro’s son Koçak
Shooting with gun

Hüsnü’s son Musto
Shooting with gun

Alo’s son Uso
Shooting with gun

Peri’s son Maksut
Shooting with gun

Peri’s son Haci
Shooting with gun

Hasanali’s son Mahmut
Passing the sword

Hasanali’s son Ibo
Passing the sword

Abdullah’s son Mazgi
Splitting his abdomen

Hasan’s son Sulis
Shooting with gun

Mustafa’s son Mahmo

Hasan’s son Murat

Avsi’s son Uso
Eyes gauged with sword

Mehmet’s son Lesko
Wedged with dagger

Kasim’s son Abdullah
Shooting with gun

Shepherd Adullah
Shooting with gun

Mümin’s son Seymo
Shooting with gun

Reso’s son Muammer
Shooting with gun

Merzi’s son Paso
Shooting with gun

Bitor’s son Gülü
Shooting with gun

Yusuf’s son Murat
Shooting and drawing the sword

Haci Ibrahim’s son Cedo
Shooting and drawing the sword

Faki Mehmet
Shooting and drawing the sword

Abdulcebbar’s son Sülo
Shooting and drawing the sword

Women Killed From the Same Village

Haci Ibrahim’s wife, Kasi’s daughter Huso
Shooting with gun

Aduz’s wife, Fati’s daughter Iso
Shooting with gun

Reso’s wife, Zerresan’s daughter Amat
Passing the sword

Iyso’s daughter Güllü
Cutting her breast

Ibo’s wife, Sülü’s daughter Sülnü
Splitting her abdomen and throwing her child into the stone oven

Ibo’s daughter Fatma
Cutting and throwing into the stone oven

Fidan Hatun
Burning in the stone oven

Musto’s wife, Haci Han’s daughter Gülfiraz

Halil’s wife, Mehmet’s daughter Rahime
Shooting with gun

Molla Süleyman’s wife, Haci Kerim’s daughter Binefs
Burning in the stone oven

Dervis’s wife, Biro’s daughter Rusi
Burning in the stone oven

Sivno’s wife, Ali’s daughter Mahiye

Ahmet’s wife, Haci’s daughter Hati

Meho’s daughter Hacer
Shooting and drawing the sword

Four women from the same village were killed by rape, five people - three of them women were wounded savagely.[52]

In another document signed by Kaymakam Mehmet and dated March 15, 1915[53], it is recorded that Haci Molla Sait of Kavlit Village was forced to strangle his daughter and every time he refused one of his organs was cut off and he was thus killed. Also documented in the same record are in the Serefhane Village, Cündi Aga’s servant Ahmo and her son were killed by being thrown into the burning stone oven; in Bilecik Village Mehmet Abdi’s wife Ayse was first wounded by stabbing in three spots and then killed by cutting her arms. An even worse Armenian atrocity mentioned in the same document names a woman named Fato from Yaman Bordo village who was burned with her son in a stone oven. Another atrocity which seds chills through one’s spine is recorded in Perkal village. After burning their two sons by throwing them into the stone oven, Armenians wanted to force feed the mother and father with their children’s burned flesh. When they refused, the parents were killed and the grand mother Nezo Hatun lost her mind watching this scene.[54]

It should be noted that these massacres were committed by the bandits under the guidance of Ottoman parliamentarians Pastirmacian and Papazian. Talat Pasha mentions in his memoirs that these striking realities were learned later.[55]

[1] Ki Young lee, “Ermeni Sorununun Dogusu [Birth of the Armenian Question]”, (Ankara, 1998), p. 3.

[2] “Ermeni Komiteleri [Armenian Committees] (1891-1895)”, (Ankara, 2001), p. 12.

[3] Abdullah Yaman, “Ermeni Komitelerin Emelleri ve Ihtilal Hareketleri [Aims and Revolutionary Activities of Armenian Committees]”, (Istanbul, 1973), pp. 126 – 128.

[4] For the contents of the Hayastan paper’s 56th edition dated August 19, 1914 pls see: Ayhan Yalçin, “Belgelerin Isiginda Türk-Ermeni Meselesi nin Içyüzü [Armenian-Turkish Conflict Based on Documents]”, (Istanbul, 1975), p. 232.

[5] Mehmet Hocaoglu “Arsiv Vesikalariyla Ermeni Mezalimi ve Ermeniler [Armenians and Armenian Atrocities Based on Archive Documents]”, (Istanbul, 1976), p. 574.

[6] Abdullah Yaman, ibid, pp. 256-258.

[7] Abdullah Yaman, ibid, pp. 256-259.

[8] Cemal Pasa “Hatiralar [Memoirs]” Prepared by Alpay Kabacali, (Istanbul, 2001), p. 426.

[9] Yusuf Halaçoglu “Ermeni Tehciri ve Gerçekler (1914-1918) [Armenian Relocation and the Truth Behind It (1914-1918)]” (Ankara, 2001), p.37.

[10] Hasan Oktay, “Van Belediye Reisi Kapamaciyan Efendinin Ermeni Tasnak Komitesi Tarafindan Katline Dair [About the Murder of Van Mayor Mr. Kapamaciyan by the Armenian Tashnak Committee]”, YTD, No:38, 2001, p. 842.

[11] Abdullah Yaman, ibid, p. 328.

[12] Mehmet Hocaoglu, ibid, p. 612, Abdullah Yaman, ibid, pp: 298-299.

[13] Abdullah Yaman, ibid, p. 301.

[14] Mehmet Hocaoglu, ibid, p. 620.

[15] “Belgelerle Ermeni Sorunu [Armenian Problem with Documents]”, Historical Publications of the Turkish Republic Armed Forces Military History and Strategic Research Center, (Ankara 1983), p. 194.

[16] Ergünöz Akçora, “Yasayanlarin Dilinden ve Belgelerle Van ve Çevresindeki Ermenilerin Yaptigi Katliamlar [Eye Witness Accounts and Documents of Atrocities Committed by Armenians Around Van]”, 131st issue of TDAD, (Istanbul, 2000), p. 124.

[17] General Maflofski, “Umumi Harpte Kafkas Cephesi (Eserin Tenkidi) [Caucasian Front During the Great War (A Criticism)]”, Translated by Kaymakam Nazmi, (Ankara, 1935), p. 134-135, as conveyed by Ergünöz Akçora, ibid, p.125.

[18] Abdullah Yaman, ibid, p. 305, Mehmet Hocaoglu, ibid, p. 615.

[19] Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi [Historical Military Documents Pblication], 86th issue, (Ankara, 1987) Document No: 2051.

[20] Wangenheim, Deutschisches und Armenien, 1914-1918. Published by: Johannes Lepsius, (Potsdam, 1919), p. 65, as mentioned by Nejat Göyünç, “Türk Ermeni Iliskileri ve Ermeni Soykirimi Iddialari, Ermeni Sorunu ve Bursa Ermenileri [Turkish Armenian Relations and Armenian Allegations of Genocide, Armenian Problem and Bursa Armenians], (Bursa, 2000), p. 113.

[21] Mustafa Gül, “Türk - Ermeni Iliskileri [Turkish – Armenian Relations]”, YTD, 38th issue, (Ankara, 2001), p. 194.

[22] Abdullah Yaman, ibid, pp. 327-328.

[23] Mehmet Hocaoglu, ibid, p. 678.

[24] Ergünöz Akçora, ibid, p. 223.

[25] “Ermeniler Tarafindan Yapilan Katliam Belgeleri - Cilt: 1 (1914- 1919) [Evidence of Armenian Atrocities - Volume 1 (1914- 1919)]”, (Ankara, 2001), p. 24.

[26] “Ermeniler Tarafindan Yapilan Katliam Belgeleri - Cilt: 1 (1914- 1919) [Evidence of Armenian Atrocities - Volume 1 (1914- 1919)]”, (Ankara, 2001), p. 19.

[27] “Ermeniler Tarafindan Yapilan Katliam Belgeleri - Cilt: 1 (1914- 1919) [Evidence of Armenian Atrocities - Volume 1 (1914- 1919)]”, (Ankara, 2001), p. 24.

[28] Mehmet Hocaoglu, ibid, p. 726.

[29] Yusuf Halaçoglu, ibid, p.39.

[30] Yusuf Hikmet Bayur, “Türk Inkilabi Tarihi [History of Turkish Revolution]” C: 111/3, (Ankara, 1983), p. 21.

[31] Kamuran Gürün, “Ermeni Dosyasi [The Armenian File]”, (Ankara, 1988), p. 224.

[32] Hasan Oktay, ibid, p. 842.

[33] “Arsiv Belgelerine göre Kafkaslarda ve Anadoluda Ermeni Mezalimi - Cilt: 1 (1906-1918) [Armenian Atrocities in the Caucasus and Anatolia - Volume 1 (1906-1918)]”, (Ankara, 1995), p. 81.

[34] “Arsiv Belgelerine göre Kafkaslarda ve Anadoluda Ermeni Mezalimi - Cilt: 1 (1906-1918) [Armenian Atrocities in the Caucasus and Anatolia - Volume 1 (1906-1918)]”, (Ankara, 1995), p. 235.

[35] “Ermeniler Tarafindan Yapilan Katliam Belgeleri - Cilt: 1 (1914- 1919) [Evidence of Armenian Atrocities - Volume 1 (1914- 1919)]”, (Ankara, 2001), p. 18.

[36] “Ermeniler Tarafindan Yapilan Katliam Belgeleri - Cilt: 1 (1914- 1919) [Evidence of Armenian Atrocities - Volume 1 (1914- 1919)]”, (Ankara, 2001), p. 18.

[37] “Ermeniler Tarafindan Yapilan Katliam Belgeleri - Cilt: 1 (1914- 1919) [Evidence of Armenian Atrocities - Volume 1 (1914- 1919)]”, (Ankara, 2001), p. 19.

[38] “Ermeniler Tarafindan Yapilan Katliam Belgeleri - Cilt: 1 (1914- 1919) [Evidence of Armenian Atrocities - Volume 1 (1914- 1919)]”, (Ankara, 2001), p. 19.

[39] “Ermeniler Tarafindan Yapilan Katliam Belgeleri - Cilt: 1 (1914- 1919) [Evidence of Armenian Atrocities - Volume 1 (1914- 1919)]”, (Ankara, 2001), p. 19.

[40] “Ermeniler Tarafindan Yapilan Katliam Belgeleri - Cilt: 1 (1914- 1919) [Evidence of Armenian Atrocities - Volume 1 (1914- 1919)]”, (Ankara, 2001), p. 20.

[41] “Ermeniler Tarafindan Yapilan Katliam Belgeleri - Cilt: 1 (1914- 1919) [Evidence of Armenian Atrocities - Volume 1 (1914- 1919)]”, (Ankara, 2001), p. 20.

[42] “Ermeniler Tarafindan Yapilan Katliam Belgeleri - Cilt: 1 (1914- 1919) [Evidence of Armenian Atrocities - Volume 1 (1914- 1919)]”, (Ankara, 2001), p. 20.

[43] “Ermeniler Tarafindan Yapilan Katliam Belgeleri - Cilt: 1 (1914- 1919) [Evidence of Armenian Atrocities - Volume 1 (1914- 1919)]”, (Ankara, 2001), p. 21.

[44] “Ermeniler Tarafindan Yapilan Katliam Belgeleri - Cilt: 1 (1914- 1919) [Evidence of Armenian Atrocities - Volume 1 (1914- 1919)]”, (Ankara, 2001), p. 21.

[45] “Ermeniler Tarafindan Yapilan Katliam Belgeleri - Cilt: 1 (1914- 1919) [Evidence of Armenian Atrocities - Volume 1 (1914- 1919)]”, (Ankara, 2001), p. 21.

[46] “Ermeniler Tarafindan Yapilan Katliam Belgeleri - Cilt: 1 (1914- 1919) [Evidence of Armenian Atrocities - Volume 1 (1914- 1919)]”, (Ankara, 2001), p. 21.

[47] “Ermeniler Tarafindan Yapilan Katliam Belgeleri - Cilt: 1 (1914- 1919) [Evidence of Armenian Atrocities - Volume 1 (1914- 1919)]”, (Ankara, 2001), p. 23.

[48] “Ermeniler Tarafindan Yapilan Katliam Belgeleri - Cilt: 1 (1914- 1919) [Evidence of Armenian Atrocities - Volume 1 (1914- 1919)]”, (Ankara, 2001), p. 24.

[49] “Ermeniler Tarafindan Yapilan Katliam Belgeleri - Cilt: 1 (1914- 1919) [Evidence of Armenian Atrocities - Volume 1 (1914- 1919)]”, (Ankara, 2001), p. 24.

[50] Mehmet Hocaoglu, ibid, p. 623-624.

[51] Mehmet Hocaoglu, ibid, p. 722-723.

[52] This document which was signed by Kaymakam Kemal and dated March 4 1915 is located in the ATASE archive No: 1 /2, Cupboard No: 113, Drawer No: 3, Bin No: 520, File No: 2024, Index No: 11 - 11/1, 11/2, 11/3.

[53] ATASE Archive No: 1/2, Cupboard No: 113, Drawer No: 3, 3, Bin No: 520, File No: 2024, Index No: 11 - 11/1, 11/2, 11/3.

[54] ATBD, Issue 81, (Ankara, 1982), pp. 93-94.

[55] Talat Pasha’s Memoirs, p. 67.

67 Responses to “Armenian Allegations and the Truth – With Archival Documents”
on 20 Oct 2007 at 7:07 pm
1 moral

ALles gut uns schoen

haben Armenier je wiedersprochen , dass die Armenier vor und während des türkischen Völkermordes wiederstand geleitet haben ? NÖ… aber das die Türken viels verdrehne , wissen wir ja bereist

Die Autoren dieser webseit sollten sich auch die Facten auf dem Boden (vor allem in der OST TÜRKEI) sich anschauen ” Ein Armenien ohne Armeneir” wie die Planer des Völkermordes an den Armeniern sich vorgestellt haben

was hier zu aendern ist , ist die Mentahlitaet der türkischen Politiker (Lügen und Rechfertigungen und Drogebergen gegen die Welt) nicht die Facten ueber den tuerkischen Voelkermord and den armeniern

Im Juni 1921 wird das Berliner Landgericht zum Schauplatz eines Prozesses, der die Welt aufrüttelt. Der Angeklagte Armenier, Soghomon Tehlirijan, ein überlebender des Völkermordes, hat den Hauptverantwortlichen für den Völkermord an den Armeniern, den ehemaligen türkischen Großwesir Talaat Pascha, auf offener Straße erschossen. Der junge Angeklagte wird zu großer Überraschung freigesprochen.

Rahael Lemkin, der „Vater der UN-Völkermordkonvention“, schrieb in seinen autobiographischen Erinnerungen an den „Prozess TalaaT Pascha“ 1921:

„Tehlirjan hatte sich selbst zum Vollstrecker des Gewissens der Menschheit ernannt. Doch kann jemand sich selbst dazu ernennen, Gerechtigkeit auszuüben? Wird eine solche Art von Gerechtigkeit nicht eher von Emotionen beherrscht sein und zur Karikatur ausarten? In diesem Augenblick erhielt der Mord an einem unschuldigen Volk eine größere Bedeutung für mich. Ich hatte zwar noch keine endgültigen Antworten, aber religiös begründetem Mord erlassen musste. Souveränität, meinte ich, kann nicht als das Recht missverstanden werden, Millionen unschuldiger Menschen umzubringen „

“…Once the gendarmes had killed a number of Armenians, Faiz El-Ghussein – the former chief district administrator of Mamuret ul-Aziz (today: Elazig) – reported, they put turbans on the corpses and fetched Kurdish women who cried and wailed over the dead, having been told that the Armenians had killed their people. Then they got a photographer to take photographs of the scene. It all then served as proof of the alleged Armenian atrocities.”

on 20 Oct 2007 at 7:10 pm
2 eddy

Excerpted from Der Spiegel, Germany’s leading weekly news magazine
(Der Spiegel , No. 16/18.04.2005, by Klaus Wiegrefe)

Avoiding history… even 90 years after the Armenian Genocide began, Turkey still refuses to face its bloody past…
by Klaus Wiegrefe
Death March to Aleppo
During the first genocide of the 20th Century, the Turks killed more than one million Armenians.

The Young Turk movement, consisting of the western-oriented military and civil servants of the Minister of War Enver Pascha as well as the Minister of Interior and future Grand Vizier Talaat Pascha, dreamed of a Great Turkey without any prominent ethnic minorities. The Young Turks were merciless in making this dream come true.

On the night of April 24th, 1915, the police in Constantinople, as Istanbul was called at the time, arrested 235 Armenian politicians, journalists, bankers, intellectuals – since then, for Armenians this day commemorates the start of the genocide. In the red military busses the men were beaten and, the next day, driven out of the capital city and almost all killed. Enver and Talaat obviously wanted to start by eliminating the leaders of the minority.

… three years later, in the central settlement areas there was not a single Armenian left.

What happened to them has been testified to not only by survivors, but also by nurses, technicians, diplomats or German officers who served the Turkish allies as military advisors.
W. Spieker for example, who was employed by the Baghdad Train Company, reported to the consul in Aleppo on July 27th, 1915, that “In Besniye the whole population of about 1,800 women and children and only few men has been expelled; supposedly they were to be transported to Urfa. At Goeksu… they had to disrobe, were mowed down and thrown into the river.”

In the fall of 1915, Alma Johansson, a nurse at the orphanage “German Society of Aid for Christian Assistance in the Orient” wrote of the deportation at Mus: “When all from our house were underway, we were given two gendarmes for protection, they all told us the same hair-raising stories. The men that were taken alive were promptly shot outside of the city. The women were taken with the children to the closest villages and,
by the hundreds, put into houses and burnt.”

The German Consul, Wilhelm Litten, wrote about what he witnessed on January 31st, 1916, while underway on the road Deir al-Sor and Tibni in what is Syria today:

2 O’clock: 5 fresh graves. At the right: A clothed man. Genitalia exposed.
2.05 O’clock: At the right: 1 man, abdomen and bleeding genitalia exposed.
2.07 O’clock: At the right: 1 man, rotting.
2.08 O’clock: At the right: 1 man, fully clothed, on the back, mouth ripped open, head pushed back, face distorted in pain.
2.10 O’clock: 1 man, lower-body clothed, upper-body fretted.
2.25 O’clock: Left on the path: 1 woman, lying on her back, lower body chewed-up, only the bloody thighbone still sticking out of the cloth.

Rivers washed thousands of bloated bodies along the way; in remote gulches bodies rotted in mass graves, waysides were lined with bones for hundreds of kilometers.
People of the time already considered the actions of the leaders surrounding the intelligent and unscrupulous Talaat in Constantinople … as a break with civilization. The future British Prime Minister Winston Churchill – the First Lord of the Admiralty in 1915 – spoke of a “heinous mass murder.”

It is entirely possible that the murder of the Armenians was even the formative experience of the 20th Century, which was marked by genocide; for contemporaries fully registered that most of the crimes done onto the Armenians were never punished. Under pressure from the victorious allies, a Turkish court did convict 17 of those close to Talaat and considered chiefly responsible to death, but almost all of them fled and escaped penalty. Some even later became Minister.

The National Socialists definitely had great admiration for the Young Turks. Alfred Rosenberg, the chief intellectual theorist of the Nazi Party, praised the Turkish in 1926 as true allies while vilifying the victims. The latter – just like the Jews – had attacked the backs of the second-tier powers during the First World War. Thus, “some severities [were] not avoidable. In 1939, in a speech to the leaders of the Wehrmacht, Hitler is said to have overruled possible objections to the mass murder of Polish civilians with the remark “Who still talks today about the extermination of the Armenians?”

According to Christian Gerlach, an expert on the genocide, the Ottoman central government, the local elite and the simple people had a regular war over the property of the Armenians…. During the death marches, the thievery continued…
In regard to the value of the stolen Armenian possessions, there are only estimations. Information from the Versailles Peace Conference calculates the value as having been around five billion euro.

To date, Turkey has been saved from any debate about collective guilt. Genocide experts such as the Bochum scientist Mihran Dabag, however, take the standpoint that the death marches “were only possible because the organizational and executing perpetrators were of such a broad social span.” The level of acceptance of the genocide among the general Turkish population is also testified to by the German files on Turkey from the First World War now published by Wolfgang Gust, a past editor of Der Spiegel.

For Ankara, these files are a particularly uncomfortable source. No one can write it off as Armenian propaganda when, for example, the German Vice-consul in Mossul, Walter Holstein, narrates how he saw the gendarme patrols in Diyarbakir and Mardin calling upon the people to kill the Armenians. South of Nusaibins, along his entire way, Holstein continues, he saw “all Mohammedans walking around with curved swords, the only thought on their minds being to kill Ermen (”Armenians”).”

Further west, Spieker, a civil servant at the Baghdad Train Station – a likewise reliable witnessed – observed how “Armenians were killed daily by the civilian population, their corpses left lying for days … in the drainage ditches.”

Compassion and civil courage on part of Kurds, Turks and Arabs is also certainly documented in number. Many survivors reported later that families hid them, although it was much more dangerous for Muslims to oppose the genocide of the Christians than it was for Germans in the Dritten Reich to lend assistance to a Jew. Those who helped ran the risk of losing their home or life. Talaat even had governors or district administrators killed when they did not obey the deportation orders…

As of the early summer of 1915, there was only one power that still could have Prevented the genocide: The German Empire.

The most important ally of the Ottoman Empire had, as of 1882, begun providing military assistance and to modernize the Army. Almost 800 officers and several thousand soldiers served in the Turkish Army during the First World War. “What they (the Turks) accomplish is our work, (are) our officers, our heavy artillery, our money,” judged Paul Graf Wolff Metternich, the Berlin Ambassador to Constantinople. “Without our help, the inflated frog loses all its air.”

The diplomat also applied pressure to the imperial government in Berlin to have an end put to the murders. Wilhelm II, however, did not want any problems with the allies. In response to Wolff Metternich’s report, Imperial Chancellor Theobald von Bethmann Hollweg wrote: “Our only goal is to keep Turkey at our side until the end of the war, no matter whether the Armenians die or not.”

The Turkish Minister of Interior Talaat – “The soul behind the persecution of the Armenians,” according to Ambassador Metternich – hid himself in the middle of the German capitol city. Confiding to the Turkish author Edip Adivar, Talaat said, “(I) am ready to die for that that I have done, and I know that I am going to die for it.” In
1921, a young Armenian shot him on Hardenberg Street.

The assassin was put to trial, and to general surprise the Berlin court found him not guilty.

Sitting in the court room at the time was a young law student of Jewish heritage named Robert Kempner who followed the events attentively. Kempner later wrote that during the trial, for the first time ever, the basic principle was applied that “genocide can be opposed by foreign countries and that doing so is not improper interference in internal affairs.”

When the Nazis came to power, Kempner had to immigrate to the USA. In 1945 he came back – as an assistant chief prosecutor of the Americans during the Nuremberg War Trials. “

on 20 Oct 2007 at 7:14 pm
3 Michael van der Galiën

Moral: I understand that you feel passionate about this debate, and appreciate that you want to weigh in (even though we obviously disagree), but most visitors of this website can’t read German (I can). We only allow English comments. Try to put it in English from now on please.

on 20 Oct 2007 at 7:15 pm
4 eddy

The Press Release on Genocide Released by the Leading Governing Faction of the German Parliament
Source: http://www.spdfrak.de/cnt/rs/rs_dok/0,,33401,00.html or http://www.bundestag.de)

21.04.05 - 383
Remembrance of the Fate of the Armenians as the Start of Reconciliation
Deputy Floor Leader of the Leading Parliament Faction
During the German Parliament session marking the anniversary of the campaign to exterminate the Turkish Armenians in 1915, Gernot Erler, the Deputy Floor Leader of the SPD Faction of the German Parliament, declared:
One of the basic preconditions for Europe to become one is the reconciliation of cultures which, in the past, were involved in mutual conflict and enmity. Indispensable to this is an honest processing of history and the recognition of responsibility and historic guilt. Only then are mutual forgiveness and the development of peaceful and normal relations possible. In Germany, we in particular know how difficult this path is, and that there is no alternative.
The debate with which the German Parliament marks the anniversary of the campaign to exterminate the Turkish Armenians in the year 1915 pursues common three goals shared by all parties:
• The German Parliament recognizes that Germany, during the First World War, through partial approval and the failure to implement effective counter measures, shares a joint responsibility for this genocide and, therefore, asks the Armenian people for forgiveness.
• The German Parliament calls for Turkey to discontinue the hitherto prevailing suppression of the recognition of the historical responsibility of the Young Turk Regime for the massacres of the Armenians and to ask the descendants of the victims for pardon. The Parliament offers encouragement to the powers within the Turkish society which increasingly engage themselves for this purpose.
• The German Parliament calls for normalization of international relations between Turkey and Armenia, as well as for the termination of the dangerous isolating of Armenia. Neighborly relations with the nations of the Caucasus are not only in the interest of Europe, but represent an important precondition for the stability of the entire Caucasus region.
Die SPD parliamentary faction hopes that this debate supplies a productive impetus to a process of reconciliation which constitutes an important, fundamental aspect of Turkey’s continuing process of integration into Europe. “

on 20 Oct 2007 at 7:29 pm
5 Gusan Yedic

Armenian allegation of genocide supporters should drop their mask and admit that they are being toyed around by international credit cartels. As a matter of fact, none of the US Congress members care about the people who died from both sides almost a century ago. They are trying to create a genocide industry and push more high interest rated credits to foreign country governments. Armenian allegations would only help to imperial powered monetary fund organizations. They are the ones who try to rewrite the history. They are the ones who don’t mind mongering hate between the nations just for financial gain.

Only the narrow minded people would deny “real” facts… So, I want one honest Armenian to answer me now… Who are the “real” deniers…?


Gusan Yedic

on 20 Oct 2007 at 7:29 pm
6 eddy


The malicious denial of the Turkish-instigated genocide of the Armenians and the continual demand for still more proof is a byproduct of the “glorious history” invented by Turkish bureaucrats for this “chosen people.” This invented, glorious history declares all civilized people who ever existed within the perimeter of today’s Turkey – no matter what their indigenous culture is or was – as proto-Turks. Armenians, of course, do not belong to this. The splendid history of Turkey, an artificial, eulogistic and ideological fabrication, continues to exclude the worst and darkest sides of Turkey’s past – such as the systematic extermination of the Armenians.

on 20 Oct 2007 at 7:35 pm
7 eddy




Ragep Zaraqolu, a tenacious Turkish scientists. Akos Armenian newspaper of Istanbul published in its July 8 issue the article of Zaraqolu titled “1915 has its deep roots” that was previously published in Zaraqolu’s Uzun Yuruyus magazine in spring. To prove the historicity of the Armenian Genocide, the author bares the hidden reasons why the Turkish Republic takes a firm hold of denialism. Here is what Zaraqolu writes: “There is an impression that the tragedy will not look that horrifying, everybody will come down and the elimination of a whole people will be seen as something natural once the term ‘genocide’ is eschewed.
“If it is not so, what’s the point of sticking to disgusting denialism? The point is, of course, distortion of the issue and prevention of discussions over the essence of the things, over the scale events and over the historic continuance. But there is one more point to be mentioned, it is the tendency of keeping the truths concerning the foundation of Turkish Republic under wraps.
“The state does not want the names of those who occupied high positions in the mechanism that organized mass killings of the Armenians come into light. It is attempting to keep this sphere sealed off. Everything is being done to erase the period from 1915 till the republic from memory. Those doing the opposite are immediately accused of dishonoring the republic created by “heroic efforts” and “honest” purposes. Yet, without examining the official ideology it is impossible to create a democratic state.
“If you take a look at the group photo shot on occasion of opening the session of the Turkish National Assembly in 1936, you will notice two officials right behind the president (Ataturk) who occupied important posts in 1915. One of them, Mustafa Helik Renda, was the chairman of the National Assembly in 1936. The second figure was Mustafa Abdulhalik who was the governor of Bitlis in 1915. He played major role in uprooting Armenians from Bitlis and Mush. Then he tracked down those who miraculously escaped to Syrian deserts and killed them. Abdulhalik was meanwhile one of the chief advisers of Talaat.
“It was greatly thanks to his efforts that Ismet Pasha was elected president after Ataturk’s death. The first thing Ismet Pasha did was granting pardon to members of Ittihat Party and making part of the authority. In 1943, he signed an agreement with Nazi Germany to convey remains of Talaat Pasha to Turkey.
“Suqru Qajan, interior minister, is another political figure form the 1936 photo. He was the chief coordinator of the Armenians’ deportation, i.e. annihilation. Qajan, secretary general of People’s Republican Party in 1927-38, rebuilt the party a la Italian fascistic organization.
“Prof. Tevfik Salim, rector of Istanbul University in 1943-46, was a military doctor in 1915. According to a letter published in Alemdar newspaper on 1919, he carried out medical experiments on Armenian soldiers injecting them a virus of typhoid. A clinic at the Istanbul University bearing his name still functions today.
“One of the regions of Van province is named after Qyazm Ozalp, chairman of the National Assembly in 1924-35. He was elected deputy from the province of Van. Yet, he also was a member of Ittihat ve Terakki Party and the commander of the 36th platoon that cleared Mush off Armenian soldiers. Nurin, brother Enver Pasha who quenched the Commune of Baku in 1918 slaughtering local Armenians, used to trade in drugs with Germany during the WW II. In 1945, he disappeared together with his factory of weapons. “As you can see, events go as deep as the year of 1915. Perhaps that’s the reason why discussion of such issues is cut immediately.”

on 20 Oct 2007 at 7:41 pm
8 exposer

Nice try. Archival historians have already demonstrated that Armenians did not rebel but rather were victim of severely sadistic policies by Ottoman governors. They were citizens for God’s ake. They were decimated by the military, the police, the gendarmerie, the gangs, orchestrated by the same people who controlled all routes and supplies and logistics. There was no civil wat. There was full control under Marshall law and total media blackout.

Note by MvdG: this comment has been edited. No need to compare people to nazis, etc. (aside from it being historically incorrect)

on 20 Oct 2007 at 8:00 pm
9 Michael van der Galiën

exposer: that’s not true. historianslike mango, lewis, and others have stated that the armenians formed militias and ruthlessly killed turkish muslims. it’s one of the reasons that perhaps the most respected and best historian in the world on turkey / the ottoman empire, Bernard Lewis, says that you shouldn’t compare what happened to the armenians to the holocaust. Two completely different things.

Gusan Yedic: your comment is filled with nonsense. I wonder whether you actually believe what you wrote.

on 20 Oct 2007 at 8:14 pm
10 Erol Palantekin

Not all Armenian’s in Diaspora, or living elsewhere in the world, share your opinions, that there was a GENOCIDE. I too, like them feel that many people died in a Civil War, brought upon by the Russians within WWI. Some of the Armenians during that time were forced to wear Russian outifts and fight against the Ottomans. These are all documented my friends.

If there was anyone who is a denier, I would have to say, that Armenians of Diaspora, are the true deniers of truth. If this was not the case, than why have the Deniers come forward, in a Debate or a Court of Law, to bring the allegations forward like most civilized people do. But to use the 1st Ammendment of our country, and hold hostage several Congresses throughout the years, is now coming to an end. I believe that Congress is fed up with this tactic.

I as an American and all my friends are fed up with your tactics. We have more problems to deal with in this country, than to be HIJACKED by the Armenian Diaspora Train. I foresee, that this probably will be the last time, such a resolution will be brought forth to congress, because I am pushing for a new resolution that will dissallow, resolutions of this nature, to even be considered. The main reason is, our politicians are not Historians! And Politicians should not be dicatating history, especially of an event that occurred well over 90 years ago.

Given this premise, I too share sympathy to all of the dead, whether they be muslim or christian. It is absurd to show disrespect to all of the humans that sufferred this trajedy.

I believe that we owe it to humanity, to recognize all people in the world who died needlessly, not just Armenians or Ottoman Turks. Special interest groups, are undermining the US congress and creating policies that only ensure, future wars for our young. The Ermenian Diaspora’s main thesis, has always been this.

But it is time to work together and address this matter, with verifiable facts in a Debate without using Government’s.

I doubt very much, that even if the resolution passed, Turkey is not going to give any reparations if it goes that far, now will they give up 1 inch of land, they fought for. They are a formidable force in the Middle East, a US ally and no amount of money or munitions is going to bring Turkey down in the future that I see.

It is time to come together and examine all of the evidence and move forward to come together and help your brothers and sisters in Armenia, where poverty and curruption is detrioating the Armenian homeland. Fighting is not the answer, neither is denial of the facts presented before you. This is just the tip of the Iceberg my friends. Lay your arms down, loose your hate, it causes cancer, the war ended in over 90 years ago, let me remind you today’s date is October 20, 2007!

Thank you for your time.

on 20 Oct 2007 at 8:22 pm
11 Gusan Yedic

Armenian deniers never wanna talk about the 1864 – 1908 era. Yes, they were Ottoman Empire citizens. Yes, they were living in the borders of Ottoman Empire. Now, if anybody comes out and denies these facts, either they might be paid lobbyist or an official who is on international money cartels payroll. Yes, that was a civil war on that time and now, Armenians are trying to make money from First World War casualties. You may call them grave digger if you wish to…

What if Mexicans supplies Navajos with uniforms and heavy artillery to upraise in United States.. How US military and American people would react?.. Is there anybody have guts to answer that..?

Whoever wants to answer this question, first of all he/she must explain the reason for FBI swoop operation in Puerto Rico against the Puerto Rican leader who wanted to free Puerto Ricans…!

First blood shed by Armenians. They killed 452.000 innocent Turkish villagers including children and woman. What should’ve Ottoman government done at that time?.. Send a writing letter to Armenian terror group leaders and let their sorrow?!..

My Gosh, Armenian supporters are not just deniers, they are also jokers…


Gusan Yedic

on 20 Oct 2007 at 9:08 pm
12 Areen

The truth is painfully clear to Turks, i.e. that the events were genocide orchestrated against the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. They’ll come to terms with it eventually.

BTW Erol, Armenians will bring this resolution up again and again as long as we have political power, so don’t hold your breath that congress has somehow become fed up with it. If the Jews, Greeks, and Cubans can effect U.S. foreign policy as U.S. citizens, then we have the right to as well. This issue is never going away…poison be damned. We have a right to get affirmation from our home government for historical wrongs committed against our people.

Of course, you have the right to push for the opposite. Go for it. Start a lobbying group. I’m sure the Turks would provide financing.

on 20 Oct 2007 at 9:28 pm
13 Erol Palantekin

PS, my previous POST went out, by me fingering the wrong button - I apologize for this.

Dear Areen:

I believe your right about Congress, but Congress is responsible to their constituents, and majority of the people are fed up with it.

As I said in my earlier post, don’t you feel that we should go about this in another matter. If indeed a systematic Genocide took place during that time, than we should take action to bring the truth forward. But what action? Turkey has been denied, speaking their side of the story. Freedom of speech, is of course our right, but there sometimes are meny sides to each story. We have only heard 1 side over and over again. Don’t you think it is time to go about this in a civilized manner. Using methologies that are accepted and practiced today, to get to the bottom of any issue? Don’t you want to get to the truth, I certainly do, but I do not want to do in in a vacuum. Today, the issue is in a vacuum.

If the facts brought forth by Historians that specialized in this era can bring forth evidence that support the so called Genocide, why have they not brought it forward to begin with? But let us assume for a moment, they were brought forward, don’t you believe that everyone will be behind you and your people?

And let us not forget, that not only Armenians died during that period of time, many ethnic Ottomans did …..

Isn”t time to come together and examine all of the facts, and come to a resolution on this matter.

Thank you for your consideration.


on 20 Oct 2007 at 9:34 pm
14 Chris

Michael van der Galiën- Bernard Lewis has received at least 3 grants by the government of Turkey, of course he would be a revisionist of history.

on 20 Oct 2007 at 9:38 pm
15 Michael van der Galiën

Chris: that’s ridiculous. In other words, one of the world’s finest historians would lie about something as big as a ‘genocide’ because of a few grants?

on 20 Oct 2007 at 9:42 pm
16 Jason Steck

I love how the receipt of grants is supposed to transform scholars into liars whenever the grants are from a source that some liberals don’t like, but when environmental scientists receive support from the IPCC, of course, that’s just good science.

There are a LOT of grants out there. If you want to get into the game of assuming that grant recipients are automatically not credible, don’t be surprised when that bites your own side, Chris.

on 20 Oct 2007 at 9:45 pm
17 edic


Georg Brandes (1842-1927) was a prominent Danish
An Appeal to Europe’s Conscious: A Complaint from 1903 (!) about the Massacres which, Long Before the First World War and the Armenian Genocide, Large Masses of Armenian People Fell Victim to.
Armenian and Europe” is a speech that was held in Berlin on February 2nd, 1903.
Georg Brandes, the speaker, spoke before Armenian students in Berlin. The German Empire was closely allied to the Turkish Ottoman Empire, which justifiably becomes an aspect of the polemic here. But G. Brandes speech is first of all an expression of the misery suffered by Armenians at the hands of the Ottoman rulers before the Genocide.

This historic document from 1903 was reprinted in Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, on, July 2nd, 2005 (”Frankfurt’s General Newspaper,” one of Germany’s leading daily newspapers):
“I owe the honor of being requested to speak here tonight by the Armenian students of Europe to the fact that I am one of the European authors who began early to raise their voices for Armenia; who tried very early on to direct public attention to the most appalling and shocking human tragedy of recent times.
I do not tend to overrate the spoken words of a simple author, and I know quite well that the decision of all major political questions lies with the ruling powers. But in our times, even the powers that be must take note of a strong and unanimously expressed public opinion, and that is why we must shout for as long as it takes until such a public opinion is awoken in all countries – and especially in the German Empire. As you all know, during the last ten years Turkish Armenia has been the scene of atrocities incomparable to anything in recorded world history since the time of the barbarians. Prior to it happening, no one would have thought it possible that an entire population could become the object of such bloodshed, torture and mass murder. The blood of hundreds of thousands is screaming to the heavens.

I know that Turkey, as a power, is a friendly ally of Germany. Exactly that has given the Turkish government a free hand. I don’t want to say a syllable about the personality of the Sultan. But the friendship that accounts for his good fortune cannot prevent advocates of humanity from coming forward to the German public. Hungary has a friendly relationship to Turkey based on hundreds of years of ancestral relations and tradition. Nonetheless, Pierre Quillard, the brave champion of Armenia’s cause, was given complete attention recently – in the middle of December – when he presented Hungary with facts about Armenia’s current history. The German People stand much further removed from the Turkish than the Magyar, and as a whole are much more powerful. An elevation of the public opinion in Germany regarding the Armenian cause could now possibly be of decisive importance. Inasmuch that the Armenians have had nothing for themselves other than their misfortune, it is impossible to refuse them compassion. What they have suffered can barely be put into words, much less described, not least because the listeners would hold their ears closed.

If one says three hundred thousand lives have been extinguished, partly through acts of violence, partly through starvation and frost, little impression is made; it does not put the imagination into motion. For example, what use is the report that in August 1894, in the villages near Musj, a mass murder happened over a three-week period; that without difference men, women, children were hacked down; that the women everywhere were violated before they died; that first two hundred, soon three hundred women at a single time were handed over to the soldiers before they were killed with bayonets and sabers! What is the use of telling what one German traveler found out directly on location: In Kendránz the Kurds swore to each other to rape every female human being, from five-year-old child on up! Or to say: At an other location, almost sixteen thousand young women and girls were locked in a small church, surrendered to the soldiers and, finally, killed by them. A river of blood flowed From beneath the
Church door.

To make an unforgettable impression, one has to go into detail. That a hundred thousand have been slaughtered has less of an effect than when an individual is murdered. A woman fell to her knees and begged the soldiers to spare her life – in truth, two lives. The soldiers jeered, “Is it a boy or a girl?” And they bet seven Medsjidié on a boy. “Let’s find out!” And they slit open her stomach. The man who told of this can supply all the facts and name witnesses. Elsewhere the Kurds bet about whether they could chop off the heads of four infants with a single blow, and they did so in front of the mother’s eyes. In Trebisund, on the first day of the bloodbath, an Armenian left a bakery where he had bought bread for his ailing wife and children. Taken by surprise by an angry mob, he begs for mercy, and in deceit it is promised that no harm will be done to him. He believes and gives heartfelt thanks, but they are only having their fun with him. They bind his feet together. They chop off a hand and hit him in the face with it; then they chop off the other hand. It is demanded that he make the sign of the cross, while others insist that he shout louder so that his God can hear him. Someone cuts off his ears, first stuffing them into his mouth and then throwing them in his face. Another insists that the mouth of the Effendi must be punished because it has spurned such a delicacy, and they cut out his tongue. Now he can no longer hold any blasphemous speeches. With the tip of a dagger someone pops his eye from the eye socket. The horribly distorted face, the twitching of the poor body, makes the fanatics even wilder; they pop the other eye out as well and chop off his feet before they slit his throat with a final stroke of the dagger.
A report by the British Consul in Erserúm describes an event in the village of Semál that occurred prior to the beginning of the bloodbath. The Armenian Azó refused to denounce some of the best men of the area, whereupon the judge Talib Effendi and two Turkish town leaders tortured him an entire night long. First his feet were beaten with a stick, then he was tied naked onto two beams with his arms spread and the whipping began. The unfortunate could not move a limb. The twitching of his face betrayed his suffering. The more he screamed, the more they beat him. He pleaded with the authorities to finally kill him. He tried to smash in his skull against the beams, but that was prevented. When he still did not bear witness against his own, to keep himself clean of innocent blood, Judge Talib had the hairs of his beard pulled out with pliers. Then they began to abuse his body with red-hot iron, burning him on the hands, on the feet and on even other body parts. With red-hot pliers they burnt his tongue. He passed out three times but remained steadfast. In the next room his wife and children, frozen in terror, listened to his moaning.

And now, the stay in the prisons – in Bitlis, for example – where the prisoners, penned together by the hundreds, are sometimes unable to either sit or lie in the dreadful filth and, in addition, have been starved and often tortured.

I know and can noticeably feel it: You do not like listening to me. You have to use force to stop yourself from shouting at me: “Enough! Enough!” To be sure, I have also noticed that numerous ladies have left the hall. It has been horrible for you to listen to all this. Thus I now ask that you multiply the horrors that I have told you a couple of hundred thousand times, and to keep in mind: What the Berliner ladies have not been able to endure hearing, the Armenians have endured a hundred thousand times over. It is happening in our day, throughout the last decade, about four to five days journey from here – and we have let it happen; we have done nothing against it. Europe was long warned. The preparation for the slaughter in Sassún was done so openly that the English Consul submitted a long report requesting protection for the Armenian population. England does “not want to interfere in the internal affairs of allied powers.” That is standard procedure. And what is truly outrageous is that even now, when Europe is no longer blinded by ignorance, the atrocious situation still continues.

The Armenians are still being robbed – plundered – of their liberties; abused; cut down individually or en masse. I could give hundreds of examples. I’ll tell of one: On July 3rd, 1900, five hundred Kurds encircled the village of Spaghánk. They cut loose with bullets, swords, bayonets. Women and children ran towards the soldiers, pleading in supplication. The small children, still alive, were raised upwards spiked on the bayonets; the women were stripped naked, violated, murdered. The village priest, an 80-year-old man, had both sides of his mouth slowly split and his lower jaw ripped out. A pregnant woman named Timene, who was married to the parish chairman, had her stomach slit open; the infant was hacked to pieces and the woman killed with fifty stabs of a knife. We have always been aware that our civilization does not completely exclude criminal behavior, be it the predation or bloody deeds of individuals or those of criminal gangs. As regrettable as this has been, it never seemed to disprove the level of civilization that we have believed to have achieved. In the same way we have always known that our culture, even in the most civilized of nations, does not exclude social misfortune such as poverty and the disregard of the poor. But even the wretchedness of the most miserable never seemed to disprove the high standard
of contemporary civilization.

Armenia as the Vanguard of Western Civilization in Asia

We have always known what war means, how it excites the passions, what atrocities it produces. But we do not wage war nowadays as it was waged in the past. Military leaders are reluctant to do harm to the peaceful population; war is waged against women and children only under specific conditions – for example, when cities are bombed. This way, war does not go against the principals of our conscious, which are based on highly civilized standards. Thus, although we have had to acknowledge the frequent transgression, the social injustice and cruelty, the racial and religious hatred and prejudice, the horror of war, there was nevertheless one remaining outrage which seemed inconceivable to us in our day and age; that was labeled as belonging to antiquity or the Middle Ages. We can no longer do that. Since Europe has not prevented the atrocities being done in Armenia and presently in Macedonia as well, it is impossible to maintain that our age is ethically more advanced than the Dark Ages.

I said: Inasmuch that the Armenians have had nothing for themselves other than their misfortune, they have earned our sympathy, our help. The Armenians are one of the oldest civilized races on the earth, with an almost 4000-year-old history – a civilized culture that has done great things for the civilization within their country, and even more for that outside their country. Like the Poles, Armenians are divided between three large powers. Subjects of Russia, Persia and Turkey, the educated among this people often have a command of all three languages in addition to that of their own, and often understand and speak a European language as well. It is the culture of the East which has adapted itself the most to the European human nature; it was, as one of its shining sons, Archag Tchobanián, has said, “the advance guard of European civilization in Asia.”

Mount Ararat, on which Noah’s Ark landed, is the spiritual center of the Armenian People. The engraving is based on a drawing by Taylor, 1886.

Although his land, which lay in the path of the conquering cultures of Asia, has continually been inundated and suppressed by foreigners (already in ancient times by the Assyrian and Medes on up to the Arabs), the land has revealed a highly unusual power of resistance and a not much smaller power of assimilation. The Parthian kings who began governing Armenia two centuries before Christ became Armenians. Some of the distinguished kings of the Royal Family of Bagratuni which followed were apparently Armenian Jews, although this is not known for sure as at the time it was considered an honor to descend from the “House of David.” From the most ancient ages on up until today, Armenia has continually bestowed foreign civilizations with men of great importance. During the Byzantine Empire the Armenians were outstanding warriors and pioneering thinkers, and almost a dozen of the Emperors were of Armenian descent.
Under the rule of the Turkish emperors, they retained their position as a life-giving element; the trade was in their hands and they distinguished themselves as artists, businessmen and statesmen. Nubár Pasha, who governed Egypt for so long a time, was an Armenian, as was the Russian dictator Loris-Melikov. Since the Armenian people were the first to accept Christianity, most of its ancient heathen poetry has regrettably been lost. Not just the antique temples, but the literature glorifying the gods and heroes has been destroyed as well. All that remains are fragments giving evidence to the lyric talents of the people – enough, nonetheless, to be able to recreate the pantheon of the Armenian divinities. They have neither the excessive breadth of the Asiatic divinities nor the beauty of the Greek gods; they are – just like the people who created them – industrious, rational and good.

In the ancient architecture of the country, once so rich, there is a blend of Assyrian and Persian forms with Hellenic style. Christianity became a new culture element for the Armenians, a national one. When Armenia lost its political independence, the Church became the representation and guardian of the national traditions, similarly to what happened in Poland. The literature became in part historical, in part highly devout, consisting of religiously-toned chronicles and mystical verses – retaining, however, a poetic sense both individual and dark. Golden hymns finding their way to the light. The poetic, fervent historiography of Moses Khorenazi occupies an important position here; he had studied in Greece and knew of the Ilion. He praised the bravery of the heroes. And he loved his country. He glorified the wonderful beauty of the region surrounding Van, an area eventually chosen by Semiramis as her summer residence: “In a land, she said, where the climate is so mild and the air so pure, we must build a city and a royal castle so as to live amidst all the glory.”

Earlier Ideas – What the Ancient Chronicles Tell

Another eminent historian of antiquity, Jerisjé, told of the wars between the Armenians and Persians and, in a famous fragment, sang praise of the Armenian women who have shown rare courage at all times – like recently, a few years ago, in Sassún, where fifty young women threw themselves into an abyss so as not to fall into the hands of the Turks; and in Palú, where, singing a hymn, thirty women sprang into the river Euphrates for the same reason. Jerisjé described the sincerity and sacrifice of the widows during the hard times of the war.

A chronicle, written by Vartabed Lasdivertsi, narrated the invasion of the Tartars and the Persians and already described, 900 years ago, how Armenians, “lying naked at the side of the road are trodden, chased from their homeland, imprisoned and enslaved by all nations.” From the fifteenth to the nineteenth century the national character of the Armenian people was completely suppressed, as good as destroyed. All that still stood tall was the Church. The ancient manuscripts lay in slumber in monasteries. A monk named Mechitár, realizing that no spiritual center for the Armenian intellectual life could be established in Turkey, brought the valuable manuscripts to Venice and established the San Lázaro Monastery there; it served as a sort of Armenian university and is where Lord Byron started his studies of the Armenian language.
The inhabitants of this monastery developed tremendous skills as translators and thus introduced their compatriots to all the intellectual treasures of Europe, ancient and new, from Homer to Racine and from Alfieri to Schiller. In literature, they now began to use modern instead of old Armenian; the heyday of Armenian intellectual life in the nineteenth century was the result. Young men returning from Europe brought the creations of the European Romantics and founded a national theater in Constantinople. With humor and passion poets such as Gabriel Sundukiánz and, later, Avetis Nazarbék attacked the middle-class attitudes and prejudices of their compatriots in their plays.

The Spirit of 1848 was transplanted to the Armenian mountains; the soul of the Armenian people became more and more Europeanized. On Russian soil, the influence of the Russian novel and the social-democratic works of the Germans brought forth a second Armenian literature, one which awoke the people to fight against the Turkish encroachments. Nalbandián gave the Armenian people their anthem of freedom. The novel “Dsjellal-ed-din,” written by the talented Raffi in French and translated into German, describes the conditions faced in Armenia in 1877; it supplies an emotionally moving depiction of the martyrdom of the people back then (and of today). All the atrocities which we have recently encountered – the assaults and the acts of violence, all the miserable wretches that have been impaled on stakes, that have been martyred with red-hot irons – all of this has occurred before. The novel leaves about the same impression as that left by the letters written at the sites of misery between the years 1894 to 1896. Nazarbék’s book “Through the Storm”, available in English, deals with the Armenian Revolt in the form of a novel; the revolt was the result of atrocities and the cause of new atrocities.

While the spirit and intellect of the people was dormant, the folk music remained fresh and continually sprouted anew; no nation has folk songs as modern as those of the Armenian – the plaintive songs of the expatriated, the passionate verses of those in love. A younger generation grew that was familiar with the Armenia of old and simultaneously modern-minded, a generation which raised objections against the injustice of the government and the cruelty of the Kurds. Thus could the patriarch Nersés send 1878 men to the congress in Berlin to speak with authority for the Armenians. And he was lucky and brought about Article 61, which seemed to secure the future of the Armenians; even today every friend of the Armenian Cause must grasp at the unfulfilled promises of this article.

Europe had seemingly taken the oppressed nation of people under its protection. Unfortunately, the participation of the Great Powers was not serious. And alone the fact that the Armenians dared to turn to Europe drove the rancor of the Turkish government to the extremes. The Armenian theater in Constantinople was closed; the teaching of Armenian history, the holding of meetings, celebrations, lectures and so forth: all was forbidden. The press was subject to the sharpest censorship. Step by step, incarceration and persecution began happening more and more than ever before. The Kurds were organized into regimented cavalries against the Armenians in the name of the Sultan, who let these irregular troops loose upon their unlucky neighbors to plunder and crush them.
When the Armenians began to defend themselves at numerous places, the pretext was supplied to exterminate this infidel – that is, Christian – population through mass torture and mass slaughter. At the Berlin Congress, the Ottoman Government had committed itself under Article 61 to introduce the reforms required to guarantee the safety of the Armenians from the Cherkessk and Kurds, and to report on this from time to time to the political powers. The signing governments were given the right to supervise the Turkish code of conduct. For the entire fifteen years thereafter, Turkey kept the political powers at bay with empty words. And subsequently, if Turkey remained far from introducing reforms but rather, on the contrary, only bothered to answer the insistent messages of the English, Russian and French embassies by ordering a mass bloodbath, they were only encouraged in this – as is acknowledged by such a fervent German Patriot as the well-informed traveler Paul Rohrbach – because “the excellent relationship to Germany” made it possible for the Turkish government to do so.

Germany’s Responsibility is Decisive.

Turkey would have had to give in had the Great Powers acted unanimously. The country would have been blocked from all sides. The friendly relationship to Germany provided them with breathing space. The blockade that they saw themselves confronted with was not effective. They slipped through and could sedulously silence the Armenians with bayonets and lances, with sharp sables and red-hot iron, with rape and arson. No one would deny that some individual Germans, both men and women, revealed themselves as being helpful after the worst time of terror. German willingness of sacrifice has resulted in orphaned children being taken in and raised. Everyone is familiar with Eduard Bernstein’s speech, and everyone knows that a man such as Johannes Lepsius did everything he possibly could to reveal the truth about the conditions in Armenia to his fellow countrymen and, revealingly enough, lost his vicarage as a result. Nonetheless, if it were not for the cordial relationship between the German Empire and the Turkish cabinet, the most obscene political crime of the last century would have been an impossibility.

Therefore it is essential, especially in Germany, to raise an outcry for the Armenian People. In the most famous Old Icelandic Saga, a woman throws the blood-soaked cloak of her slain husband over a relative disinclined to get involved in her situation; she does this to move him into taking action to avenge the deceased. No one here is thinking of vengeance. But if it were possible to throw the cloak gone completely rigid from the blood of the slain Armenian victims around the shoulders of the German people and thus induce the German government to demand security and liberty for the survivors of the ancient, venerable Armenian people, then the action would be a useful one. “

on 20 Oct 2007 at 10:35 pm
18 Gusan Yedic

Michael van der Galiën- Bernard Lewis has received at least 3 grants by the government of Turkey, of course he would be a revisionist of history. / Chris says.

How about ex-convict Taner Akcam?.. How many awards he received by German and US government?.. Who is loading him with fabricated anti Turkish data?.. We all know that he signs his book but do anybody know who writes them?.. Oh excuse me… I forgot that we only oppose the Turkish defenders…

I said it once. I am saying it again…

Armenian defenders are not just deniers, they are also jokers…


Gusan Yedic

on 20 Oct 2007 at 10:41 pm
19 edic-eddy

about Georg Brandes ( see his historic speech on armenia in 1903 (!) in berlin, posted above)

Georg Brandes (1842-1927) was a prominent Danish and European literary critic particularly between about 1870 and 1900. He is credited with lifting Søren Kierkegaard’s writings out of relative obscurity a quarter century after the philosopher’s death by introducing it to Germany, where it was propagated further to France, finally to be discovered by the existentialist philosophers who so influenced the twentieth century. Recognized in Germany primarily for helping to make Nietzsche known to the European public; Brandes was born under the name Morris Cohen in 1842 in Copenhagen, where he died in 1927. His work was dedicated to monographs of, amongst others, Goethe, Disraeli and Ferdinand Lassalle. The bust sits at the entrance of Copenhagen’s King’s Gardens.

on 20 Oct 2007 at 11:09 pm

!!!!!!!!!!! Bernard Lewis @ CO !!!!

I hope strongly that Palestina and Israel will make peace and will ltehy ive in freedom, because this is goofd for Armenians too!

BUT the “friendship” of US and Israel (above all) is bulit on the foundation of the denial a crime against humaity, this is the denial of Aremnian Genocide, BUT such a “partnership” can NOT exist for a long just because of the American vlaues (Moral, Justic, Freedom ,,,,)

Therfore Mr. Bernard Lewis & Co are involved currently more in politic rather than science and uniqueness history..
That is way what ever Bernard Lewis & Co are writting one has to take it with a pinch of salt, because Bernard Lewis & Co are first of all concern about the security of Israel (to please Turk ey) and defend the uniqueness of Jewish Holocaust

on 20 Oct 2007 at 11:24 pm
21 EDy-edic

sooory .there were a mistake

!!!!!!!!!!! Bernard Lewis @ CO !!!!

I hope strongly that Palestina and Israel will make peace and they are going to live in freedom, because this is good for Armenians too!

BUT the “partnership ” of US and Israel (above all) is bulit on the foundation of the denial a crime against humaity, this is the denial of Aremnian Genocide, BUT such a “partnership” can NOT exist for a long just because of the American values (Moral, Justic, Freedom ,,,,)

Therfore Mr. Bernard Lewis & Co are involved currently more in politic rather than science and serous history works ..
That is way what ever Bernard Lewis & Co are writting one has to take it with a pinch of salt, because Bernard Lewis & Co are first of all concern about the security of Israel (THEY HAVE TO please Turkey) and defend the uniqueness of Jewish Holocaust as long as it is possible “

on 21 Oct 2007 at 1:41 am
22 Erol Palantekin

Dear Eddy:

Please tell me what is NOT POLITICAL?

Best Regards,

on 21 Oct 2007 at 3:42 am
23 Erol Palantekin

Sorry I meant EDy-edic not Eddy…my apolgies.

Please tell me what is NOT POLITICAL?

Best Regards,

on 21 Oct 2007 at 5:05 am
24 Areen


Turkey has not been denied speaking their side of the story, because clearly, as has become painfully obvious in the last few weeks, a lot of people in the American media still believe there is a legitimate debate surrounding the events of 1915, or they purposefully distort the truth in their articles for whatever reason.

BUT THE FACT IS there is no real debate among Genocide scholars. If that’s not enough to surmount the critical burden of proof that deniers or appeasers wish from those that call genocide by its name, then I don’t know that anything ever will be enough. It’s just a cycle with no end, albeit a cycle that is leaving Turkey and deniers slowly more encircled and alone, which is a positive, because it forces them to question their beliefs.

As for the political side of this matter, I am all for the Turkish and Armenian states coming together to talk about the past, the present, the future. No harm could come of it. But this can’t happen while Turkish historians cannot even call these historic events by their name for fear of insulting Turkishness. Undoubtedly some major strides have been made in Turkey in recent years to address the issue more truthfully, but it’s still not enough to make me believe that any historic discussions on the political level would be helpful in settling the issue.

Regardless of all that, the truth is the truth. It matters little to me if there are deniers out there. I’m an Armenian and I know the pain and trauma that this event has forever wrought upon my people and I’ll fight for its recognition as long as I’m capable, and there are many, many, many more where I come from all across the world.

on 21 Oct 2007 at 6:31 am
25 Erol Palantekin


I understand your pain and of other Armenians that were re-located, the survivors. No doubt about that. But also understand that my own family sufferred the same, mutilations and massacres. Many of my family members were also slaughtered, just like many Armenians were. Two wrongs do not make a right.

It was a horrific time for all people in the region, but I do not believe that it was a Genocide, I do believe that it was massacre on both sides because of several reasons. One major reason is, had their been a Genocide, using the legal definition, every Armenian in all of the Ottoman Territories would have been rounded up and murdered. Instead, most were relocated to Syria as you know, or else you and I would not be having this exchange.

Also we can not compare the standards of living back in 1915 to today. They did not have Jet’s or, diseases were rampant, condition during that time did not allow mankind to offer even basic elements of survival. Even today, if you and I were to backpack and retrace the steps your for fathers took, I don’t know that we could make it today.

The decision to relocate the Armenians to Syria was taken because your ancestors sided with the Russians, an enemy of the Ottoman Empire. To secure their territories without harming more Armenian people, an order to relocate them was given. This order, in fact was not only to ensure the security of the territory but in effect, secure the lives of your ancestors. If that was not the case, again we would not be having this meaningful exchange.

The Turks who immigrated to the US, today are not as powerful as your group is, therefore we are not in the position to buy the influence which the Armenian lobbiest groups can. That is what I mean, that we do not have a voice, because we are not there yet.

Yes, it was a horrific event, but this occurred on both sides, you must accept this, so that we can move forward.

As you may or may not know, the first President of Armenia OVANNES KAZANUNI (Turkish name)’s book was recently found. If you have not read or heard about the book, let me enlighten you. In his own words, He says that the “Armenians were totally responsible for what happened in Armenian, not the Ottomans”. When the book recently was re-discovered, almost every copy in Europe mysteriously dissapeared! Isn’t that sad. But the Turks, not only have the original publications. They have reprinted thousands of copies of this book. Besides, there are thousands of documents already in several countries, that do not support any thesis that the Ottoman commited Genocide. So why should the Turkish Government who was not even founded yet, admit to anything of the sort. Would you, when everything points back to the Armenians. I am sorry, I just can not accept your argument, it is not justified or backed by facts that are everywhere, including Armenia, for you to examine and find the truth.

Now your own President back in 1923, come out with a book and declares that the Ottomans did not commit any form of Genocide, and here you are arguing against your own President. Denial?

Again, I totally understand the pain involved with the Armenian people and the suffering, but your energies need to focus on releasing this hatred towards the Turks and work towards a solution in coming to terms not only with yourselves but with the Turks. Hatred causes cancer and is not productive and if you are an American, we all need to concentrate on solving problems that are also very important, far more important than this issue, because there are children out there without health care, there are people starving to death in one of the richest countries in the world. Let’s work together in solving those, together and go beyond what has happened in the past. I know it is easy for me to say this to you, but believe me, I too have had many relatives killed during that era and also have feelings just like any Armenian.

I wish you a very good Sunday.



on 21 Oct 2007 at 7:50 am
26 Erol Palantekin

Dear Areen:

Here is my source on Hovhannes Katchaznouni’s book. It is a sad story.


The Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnagtzoutiun) Has Nothing to Do Any More

(The Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, First Prime Minister of the Independent Armenian Republic)

Translated from the Original by Matthew A. Callender
Edited by John Roy Carlson (Arthur A. Derounian)

Published by the
Armenian Information Service
Suite 7D, 471 Park Ave.
New York 22

1955 Price 75c

“It would be useless to argue today whether our bands of volunteers should have entered the field or not. Historical events have their irrefutable logic. In the Fall of 1914 Armenian volunteer bands organized themselves and fought against the Turks because they could not refrain themselves from organizing and refrain themselves from fighting. This was in an inevitable result of a psychology on which the Armenian people had nourished itself during an entire generation: that mentality should have found its expression, and did so.

And it was not the A.R.F. that would stop the movement even if it wished to do so. It was able to utilize the existing conditions, give effect and issue to the accumulated desires, hopes and frenzy, organize the ready forces — it bad that much ability and authority. But to go against the current and push forward its own plan — it was unfit, especially unfit for one particular reason: the A.R..F. is a people’s mass strong in instinct but weak in comprehension.

If the formation of bands was wrong, the root of that error must be sought much further and more deeply. At the present time it is important to register only the evidence that we did participate In that volunteer movement to the largest extent and we did that contrary to the decision and the will of the General Meeting of the Party.

The Winter of 1914 and the Spring of 1915 were the periods of greatest enthusiasm and hope for all the Armenians in the Caucasus, including, of course, the Dashnagtzoutiun. We had no doubt the war would end with the complete victory of the Allies; Turkey would be defeated and dismembered, and its Armenian population would at last be liberated.

We had embraced Russia whole-heartedly without any compunction. Without any positive basis of fact we believed that the Tzarist government would grant us a more-or-less broad self-government in the Caucasus and in the Armenian vilayets liberated from Turkey as a reward for our loyalty, our efforts and assistance.

We had created a dense atmosphere of illusion in our minds. We had implanted our own desires into the minds of others; we had lost our sense of reality and were carried away with our dreams. From mouth to mouth, from ear to ear passed mysterious words purported to have been spoken in the palace of the Viceroy; attention was called to some kind of a letter by Vorontzov-Dashkov to the Catholicos as an important document in our hands to use in the presentation of our rights and claims — a cleverly composed letter with very indefinite sentences and generalities which might be interpreted in any manner, according to one’s desire.

We overestimated the ability of the Armenian people, its political and military power, and overestimated the extent and importance of the services our people rendered to the Russians. And by overestimating our very modest worth and merit we were naturally exaggerating our hopes and expectations.

The deportations and mass exiles and massacres which took place during the Summer and Autumn of 1915 were mortal blows to the Armenian Cause. Half of historical Armenia —the same half where the foundations of our independence would be laid according to traditions inherited from the early eighties and as the result of the course adopted by European diplomacy — that half was denuded of Armenians: the Armenian provinces of Turkey were without Armenians. The Turks knew what they were doing and have no reason to regret today. It was the most decisive method of extirpating the Armenian Question from Turkey.

Again, it would be useless to ask today to what extent the participation of volunteers in the war was a contributory cause of the Armenian calamity. No one can claim that the savage persecutions would not have taken place if our behavior on this side of the frontier was different, as no one can claim the contrary, that the persecutions would have been the same even if we had not shown hostility to the Turks. This is a matter about which it is possible to have many different opinions.

The proof is, however — and this is essential — that the struggle begun decades ago against the Turkish government brought about the deportation or extermination of the Armenian people in Turkey and the desolation of Turkish Armenia. This was the terrible fact!

Civilized humanity might very well be shaken with rage in the face of this unspeakable crime. Statesmen might utter menacing words against criminal Turkey. “Blue”, “yellow”, “orange” books and papers might be published condemning them. Divine, punishment against the criminals might be invoked in churches by clergymen of all denominations. The press of all countries might be filled with horrible descriptions and details and the testimony of eye-witnesses. . . . Let them say this or that .. . but the work was already done and words would not revive the corpses fallen in the Arabian deserts, rebuild the ruined hearths, repopulate the country now become desolate. The Turks knew what they ought to do and did it.

The second half of 1915 and the entire year of 1916 were periods of hopelessness, desperation and mourning for us. The refugees, all those who had survived the holocaust, were filling Russian provinces by tens and hundreds of thousands. They were famished, naked, sick, horrified and desperate floods of humanity, flooding our villages and cities. They had come to a country which was itself ruined and famished. They piled upon each other, before our own eyes, on our thresholds dying of famine and sickness

And we were unable to save those precious lives. Angered and terrified, we sought the culprits and quickly found them: the deceitful politics of the Russian government. With the politically immature mind peculiar to inconsequential men, we fell from one extreme to another. Just as unfounded was our faith in the Russian government yesterday, our condemnation of them today was equally blind and groundless.

By an extraordinary mental aberration, we, a political party, were forgetting that our Cause was an incidental and trivial phase for the Russians, so trivial that if necessary, they would trample on our corpses without a moment’s hesitation.

I am not saying that we did not know the circumstances. Of course we knew and understood and so we stated when it was necessary to explain the situation. Deep down in our hearts, however, we did not grasp the full meaning of that word-formula; we forgot what we already knew and we drew such conclusions as though our Cause was the center of gravity of the Great War, its cause and its purpose. When the Russians were advancing, we used to say from the depths of our subconscious minds that they were coming to save us; and when they were withdrawing, we said they are retreating so that they allow us to be massacred. . . .

In both cases we misinterpreted the consequence with the purpose and intention. We sought proofs of Russian treachery and of course we found them — exactly as we sought and found proofs of the same Russians’ undeniable benevolence six months before. To complain bitterly about our bad luck and to seek external causes for our misfortune —. that is one of the main aspects of our national psychology from which, of course, the Dashnagtzoutiun is not free.

One might think we found a spiritual consolation in the conviction that the Russians behaved villainously towards us (later it would be the turn of the French, the Americans, the British, the Georgians, Bolsheviks — the whole world — to be so blamed). One might think that, because we were so naive and so lacking in foresight, we placed ourselves in such a position and considered it a great virtue to let anyone’ who so desired to betray us, massacre us and let others massacre us.


TRANSLATOR’S NOTE: Up to this point the words of the author have been translated verbatim in order to give an idea of Mr. Katchaznouni’s logical mind and the exposition of the facts that drove him to present his “Manifesto” to his colleagues at the 1923 Convention. From here on, and solely for the sake of brevity, we shall quote excerpts of his arguments which led to his decision as to why the Dashnagtzoutiun, in his opinion, should “decisively end its existence” because “there is no work for the Party.”

on 21 Oct 2007 at 7:52 am
27 Charlie

I get sick and tired of people using the term or words to the effect of “Deportation Order” it wasn’t a deportation at all in the true sense of the word. It was a relocation it was all one empire and they were removed or ordered to be removed from one part of the empire to the other.

By saying “Deportation Order” it confuses the issues and adds weight to the fallacious “Armenian Genocide” claims.


on 21 Oct 2007 at 9:19 am
28 Erol Palantekin

Dear Areen;

Talk About “Truth” … I leave you with your forefather’s so called Truths. I am also saddened to enlighten you to it, but unfortunately, the Dashnak’s lost a war to the Ottoman Empire. Turkey founded by Mustafa Kemal Pasa, overthrew the Ottoman Empire and even allowed a defeated Armenian nations people to come back to their lost lands. A man of compassion, how many leaders would have done that? Even today? And most Armenians still argue that 1.5 million Armenians were killed …. that number has tripled in the last 3 generations, yet they forget that many more Ottomans were killed. The real numbers today reflect quite a differant story. But I will let you do your own research. I have given you a start. Please follow up.

Here are just a few qoutes ..with references. Now do you understand why your current leaders will not go to Court, why they will not Debate the Turks ….. they have no credible evidence to show any jury or judge.

” All Turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the Armenian nation”
Hamparsum Boyaciyan, nicknamed “Murad,” a former Ottoman parliamentarian who led Armenian guerilla forces, ravaging Turkish villages behind the lines, 1914. Cited from Mikael Varandean, “History of the Dashnaktsutiun.” (Alternately known as “History of the A.R.Federation” [”H. H. Dashnaktsutyan Patmutiwn,” Paris,1932 and Cairo,1950]. The author [1874-1934] has other works, including “L’Arménie et la Question Arménienne,” noted in the library as “Delegation propaganda authenticated by the Armenian delegation at the Paris Peace Conference, 1919?])

“I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones. as I did. I gathered all of the women, men and children, threw big stones down on top of them. They must never live on this earth.”

A. Lalayan, Revolutsionniy Vostok (Revolutionary East) No: 2-3, Moscow, 1936. (Highly deceptive Armenian activists on the Internet are spreading rumors there is no Lalayan. The above quote has been confirmed. Lalaian was an Armenian Soviet historian and the Dashnag report above was first published in issue 2-3 of the magazine, Revolyutsionniy Vostok and then in issue 2 of Istoricheskie Zapisky, the organ of the USSR Academy of Sciences, Institute of History, The above quote is from a proud Dashnag officer, Aslem Varaam, in the report he wrote from the Beyazit-Vaaram region in 1920, Updated translation:: “I exterminated the Turkish population in Bashar-Gechar without making any exceptions. One sometimes feels the bullets shouldn’t be wasted. So, the most effective way against these dogs is to collect the people who have survived the clashes and dump them in deep holes and crush them under heavy rocks pressed from above, not to let them inhabit this world any longer. So I did accordingly. I collected all the women, men and children and extinguished their lives in the deep holes I dumped them into, crushing them with rocks.”)

“When we arrived at Zeve, the village couldn’t be passed through because of its stench. It was as if the bones in our noses would fall off… There were bodies everywhere. We saw a weird scene on the threshold of one house: they had filled the house with Muslims and burned it, and so many people had been burnt that the fat that had oozed from under the threshold had turned back into the trench in front of the door. That is, it was as if the river of fat had risen and later receded. The fat was still fresh. The entire village had been destroyed and was in this situation. I saw this with my own eyes, and I’ll never forget it. We heard that they did the same thing to the Muslims on Carpanak Island. The Armenians told me about the latter; I did not see it for myself.”

Haci Osman Gemicioglu, an Armenian-Turk (having converted to Islam) who eyewitnessed the 1915 Zeve massacre; as told to Huseyin Celik, during interviews conducted in the late 1970s-early 80s.

“Only 1,500 Turks remain in Van”

The Gochnag, an Armenian newspaper published in the United States, May 24,1915 … in a proud report documenting the slaughter of the Turkish citizenry of Van. (Holdwater: this Internet quote needs to be verified. The date is wrong; the closest issues for the weekly are from May 22 and May 29. The origin evidently was a 1982 publication from Ankara’s Institute of Foreign Policy, entitled “Ermeni Sorunu [Armenian Question], 9 soru 9 cevap,” page 23. Guenter Lewy states on p. 98 of his 2005 “Disputed Genocide” book that 3,000 Muslims were left in Van.)

“Thousands of Armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer regiments rendered valuable service to the Russian Army in the years of

Kapriel Serope Papazian, Patriotism Perverted, Boston Baker Press, 1934, pg. 38
“With the decline of Ottoman power, and the formalization of tyranny, the spirit of the Zeitun mountaineers remained alert. The government launched a number of expeditions against the town, but these were unsuccessful. The warrior spirit of its armed inhabitants, and its fortress-like setting, made Zeitun a natural focus for the attention of a nationalist or revolutionary, who had seen the success of the revolts in Greece and Serbia. Perhaps a similar success could be gained in Cilicia…”

(Christopher J. Walker, Armenia, The Survival of a Nation, Croom Helm, London / St. Martin’s Press, N. Y., 1980, pp. 100-101).

“I have it from absolute first-hand information that the
Armenians in the Caucasus attacked Tartar (Muslim) villages
that are utterly defenseless and bombarded these villages
with artillery and they murder the inhabitants, pillage the
village and often burn the village.”

Admiral Mark Bristol, Bristol Papers, General Correspondence: Container #32: Bristol to Bradley Letter of September 14, 1920.
“The Moslems who did not succeed in escaping [the city] were put to death…”

Grace H. Knapp, The Tragedy of Bitlis, Fleming H. Revell Co., New York (1919) , page 146.
“We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the Tartars (Turks), and then proceeded in the work of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stones and dust, and when the villages became untenable and the inhabitants fled from them into the fields, bullets and bayonets completed the work.”

Ohanus Appressian, describing incidents in 1919; Memoirs of an Armenian officer, Men are Like That, 1926.
“This three-day massacre by Armenians is recorded in history as the ‘March Events’ and thousands of Muslims, old people, women and children lost their lives.”

F. Kazemzadeh, The Struggle for Transcaucasia (New York, 1951), p. 69. (This excerpt refers not to Armenian atrocities against Ottoman Turks, but to “Tartar” (derogatory for “Tatar”) Turks, when Armenia attacked Azerbaijan in 1918. Regarding this period of March 30 to April 1 1918, Vladimir Lenin said that commissar S. Shaumyan, the chief architect of the massacres throughout Azerbaijan, “turned Baku into an Armenian operated henhouse [slaughterhouse].” According to Justin McCarthy’s “Death and Exile,” “Between 8,000 and 12,000 Muslims were killed in Baku alone.…”)
“As the Armenians found support among the Reds (who regarded the Tartars as a counter-revolutionary elements) the fighting soon became a massacre of the Tartar population”

W. E. D. Allen and Paul Muratoff, “Caucasian Battlefields”, Cambridge University Press, 1953, p. 481
“Many massacres were committed by the Armenians until our army arrived in Erzurum… (after General Odesilitze left) 2,127 Muslim bodies were buried in Erzurum’s center. These are entirely men. There are ax, bayonet and bullet wounds on the dead bodies. Lungs of the bodies were removed and sharp stakes were struck in the eyes. There are other bodies around the city.”

Official telegram of the Third Royal Army Command, addressed to the Supreme Command, March 19, 1918; ATASE Archive of General Staff, Archive No: 4-36-71. D. 231. G.2. K. 2820. Dos.A-69, Fih.3.
“There is little news from the interior save that the Russians have entered Van. The contingent is mostly composed of Armenian volunteers who fight with desperate courage, but whose excesses have shocked even the Russian commanders.”

Lewis Einstein, “Inside Constantinople – A [Diplomat’s] Diary During the Dardanelles Expedition, April-September, 1915,”. 1917, p. 68; John Murray, London. The book is a daily recording of what Einstein saw, heard, received and possibly imagined with cleverly inserted passages on the Armenian massacres. Curiously, Ambassador Morgenthau is not mentioned at all.
“The Armenians did exterminate the entire Muslim population of Russian Armenia as Muslims were considered inferior to the Armenians by the prominent leaders of the Dashnaks.”

Mikael Kaprilian, Armenian revolutionary leader, in Yerevan, 1919.
“In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul.”

Sahak Melkonian, Preserving the Armenian Purity, 1920
“Literally Tzeghagron means ‘to make a religion of one’s race.’ Patterned after the Nazi Youth It was also called Racial Patriots. Nejdeh wrote: ‘The Racial Religious believes in his racial blood as a deity. Race above everything and before everything. Race comes first. Everything is for the race.’ In the April 10, 1936, issue of Hairenik Weekly, Nejdeh stated: ‘Today Germany and Italy are strong because as a nation they live and breathe in terms of race.’ From Racial Patriots and Tzeghagrons, the name of the [Boston] Dashnag youth group was later changed to Armenian Youth Federation, or the AYF, as it is currently known.”

John Roy Carlson, a.k.a. Arto Derounian, “The Armenian Displaced Persons,” Armenian Affairs, 1949-50, p. 19. A beautiful description of fanatically racist Armenian minds in today’s Internet forums, proudly carrying on the tradition of Hitleresque racial superiority. This ability to distinguish Armenian “purity” from sub-human Muslims and Jews is what helped enable so many Armenians to commit mass murder.
“Since all the able Moslem men were in the army, it was easy for the Armenians to begin a horrible slaughter of the defenseless Moslem inhabitants in the area. They … simply cleaned out the Moslem inhabitants in those areas. They performed gruesome deeds, of which I, as an eye witness honestly say that they were much worse than what Turks have been accused of as an Armenian atrocity.”

General Bronsart von Schellendorf , “A Witness for Talat Pasha,” Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, July 24, 1921
“There are 400.000 Armenians in the Caucasus, who escaped from the Ottoman State.”

Hatisov, a later Armenian President, who had joined the Trabzon Conference (14 March-14 April 1918), in a message to Hüseyin Rauf. (Richard Hovannisian later updated this figure to 500,000.) In addition to other non-Ottoman lands many thousands of Armenians had found refuge in (e.g., Iran, Greece), it becomes plain to see all the Armenian men could not have been murdered in one magical stroke, as Armenian propaganda tells us. (Akdes, Nimel Kurat, Turkey and Russia, Ankara, 1990, p.471)
“It is in our blood to hate the Turks. However, we hate Bulgarians and Greeks also. The Jews like Turks, but they hate Arabs. The Arabs, in their turn, are not in favour with the Turks. And the level of hatred is rising.”

Narek Mesropian, described as Armenia’s poet laureate, in Golos Armenii, a Russian-language newspaper in Armenia, in an August 5, 1997 article reflecting the tension between the Armenian and Jewish communities. Interestingly, the Turks are not accused of hating anybody.

“For too many years Armenian mothers had lulled their children to sleep with songs whose theme was Turkish fierceness and savagery.”

Ohanus Appressian, lending testimony to how innocent Armenian children are subjected to the brutality of racism by their parents; their “Love NOT Thy Neighbor” churches are also known to join in this hatred bandwagon. Men Are Like That, 1926.

“… It’s better that I be a dog or a cat, than a Turkish barbarian…”

Edna Petrosyan, a SIX YEAR OLD Californian girl who recites hateful poems on the insistence of her mother. It is easy to see how this cycle of hate-perpetuation feeds the “Armenian Genocide” obsession for most Armenians. The Los Angeles Times, February 1, 1990
“Who wants to defend Turks?”

Pauline Kael, “When The Lights Go Down,” 1980, p.499
“The Armenians snap, or rather they eat, the hands that feed them”

Henry Morganthau, U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, in private to American officials, in response to reports concerning Armenian Cannibalism. (Source unconfirmed)

“…In the early part of 1915, therefore, every Turkish city contained thousands of Armenians who had been trained as soldiers and who were supplied with rifles, pistols, and other weapons of defense. The operations at Van once more disclosed that these men could use their weapons to good advantage…”

Henry Morganthau, U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, Ambassador Morgenthau’s Story, Doubleday, Page & Co., Garden City, New York (1918), page 301

“I have really found it impossible to sit down and dictate a letter quietly. So I have instructed (Hagop) Andonian to take my diary and copy it with some elaborations of his own. Of course this relieves me of all responsibility for any error.”

Henry Morganthau, U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire (Lowry, 1990; Franklin Delano Roosevelt Presidential Library, New York, Letters; Box 7 May 11, 1915; Box 1 2 September 1, 1915; Box 8 July 13, 1915)

on 21 Oct 2007 at 1:52 pm


!!!!!!!!!!! Bernard Lewis @ CO !!!!
@Erol Palantekin
@ Charlie

AN historian is in some way a politican too but . Bernard Lewis @ CO are in the DUTY of turkish governmont and some specific jewish organisatio, for Lewis and Co Jewish Genocide should be remain uniq

“How you ever heard of “ploitical prostitution” ? some some historinas are involved in this
even if tomarrow Bernard Lewis @ CO would change their religon and call the Armenian Genocide by its name I wouldn´t give such historians any credit at all !

on 19 October 1918, Ahmed Riza, the elected president of the Turkish senate and a former supporter of the Young Turk leaders who committed the genocide, stated in his inaugural speech: “Let’s face it, we Turks savagely ( vahshiane in Turkish) killed off the Armenians.”

############### THE GENOCIDE and so called modern TURKEY#######
one shouldn´´t go realy back to 1915 to ask why Taalat@ co commited the Armenian Genocide.


1- We shouldn’t forget that out of six principles defined by Kemal Attaturk one reads as fallow:
“Turkish nation/people is in no way indivisible there are NO non Turkish minorities and languages in Anatolia allowed” (No place for others! ). Is this principle of so called modern Turkey not based of racism and a call for expulsion, ethnic cleansing and massacres and even a call for further genocides like the one committed by Ottoman Turks against Armenians and other No Turkish minorities in the past?

2- “Only the Turkish nation has the right to claim (or put) ethnic and racial demands in this country (Turkey).” Ismet Inönü, 1938, President and successor of Attaturk. (He was one of the architects of denial policy regarding Armenian genocide. No further comments!)

3- Do we have really to be surprised of Turkish denial policy and when Turkish politicians like Mr Tayyep Erdogan announce?
“Even if the Kurds establish a Kurdish state in Argentina the Turks would fight this.” Turkish PM Erdogan, 2004 (No comments)


on 21 Oct 2007 at 6:49 pm
30 Erol Palantekin


First of all, you must know that all of Asia Minor and the all of the Ottoman territories prior to it’s demise was just like the US. It was comprised of multi-ethnic groups throughout the region which the Empire had conquered after centuries of rule in the area.

After Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, ousted the last Sultan and created the new country, called The Republic of Turkiye.

The job of unifying the remnants of the Ottoman Empire, had to be one of the most difficult things any leader could have done, because Asia Minor including Istanbul included and today, still does, many multi-ethnic groups. Most live harmously together.

It is still a melting POT, just like the US.

Under those conditions, he was able to unite every group, and created a country and fought for it. He won. Armenia lost because it sided with Russia.

It is unfortunate that the Armenian’s took sides of Russia and than were abandon. Please go to the publication written by your 1st President and read the entire text. There is 2 forms, one is just exceprts the other is the entire text. Most of the the answers lie there, but there are plenty of material that just does not support any kind of Genocide.

I was truely saddened by Katchaznouni’s writtings, but nonetheless, he was a MAN, able to tell the truth about his own countrymen and their role during the downfall of the Ottomans.

While in Turkey, I have met with many Armenians that still live there, quite a few by way. They are not happy with what the Armenian of Diaspora are doing.

The sad part about this whole mess is, you and many can not and will not accept the TRUTH as to what happened during that terrible time, even from your own President pen.

You also think that you can just roll overthe Turks with your money and influence, as if we had anything to do with what happened back in 1915.

I have been very patient and understanding in my writings to you and your friends. All I want is a Debate by historians ….. why is it that Armenians will not accept a DEBATE? The answer to me and many others is very obvious, because the real TRUTH is going to come out and you will again be all ridiculed in the eyes of the world a second time, as your 1st President pointed out.

I pray for all you and ask for your forgiveness for bullying innocent people because I feel that is also a sin. Try and work for a Debate to put all of this behind us, if that is possible.



on 21 Oct 2007 at 7:48 pm
31 Areen


You’re quite the dramatist and you’re also quite the amusing denialist. Call it a war if you wish, bring up your stilted facts, etc. etc., but you’re thesis is just plain wrong. It was genocide, in the context of a wider world war, which is why the policy was so horribly successful and so complete in its removal of any trace of Armenians from their homeland. And let’s not forget the Pontic Greeks and the Assyrians…and the Kurds of today.

This moral relativism that Turkish denialists always offer up doesn’t stand to reason. Were there Armenian revolutionaries? Yes, there were. Was there resistance? You’re damn right there was, and rightfully so. Did some Turks dies at the hands of Armenians? Yes, they did. An oppressed Christian minority that was being bled to death and forced off its land for centuries had every right to stand up for itself as much as it did.

But these facts, while relevant to the history of the period, don’t change or augment the reality that an ethnic group was wiped out from its traditional lands for being identifiably different. It was a genocide.

As far as your arrogance to assume that Armenians are financially strong arming western states to recognize a “false” genocide, you sound like nothing more than a delusional conspiracy theorist. A dispersed people of only 5-6 million in varying stages of assimilation (except in Armenia proper) doesn’t have nearly as much clout or resources as a burgeoning nation of 70 million by any stretch of the imagination. You sound ridiculous. Take a look at your conscience and then write up your next response. Be a little level-headed for God’s sake.


on 21 Oct 2007 at 8:14 pm
32 eddy

for a peace of land turks killed armenians in mass and after that they destroyed their more than 4500 year culture in their historical homeland… did more than 2500 armenian churches monoments ” in turkey side with russia “?

why is turkey ubusing the armenians in istanbul for dirty propagada ? Is thi snot the same turkey as 1915 ?

What debate ..

in turkey we have a turkish amnesia which is simulated!!!!

imagen a jews is going to debate with a nazi … to convince him there were a jewish genocide… what will be the result!

when Turks are not even ready to accept thta there was a “turkish armenian or armenian velijats” !

The problem is the mentality of turkish politicans.. this has first to change …

There are many couragous Turks in Turkey who are willing to help turkish gov. to heal its simulated amnesia about the annhilation of a big part of armenians in turkey…

I agree with fallowing:

“My personal impression is the lack of morality from the Turkish,”

“What the majority of Armenians want is a recognition … and an apology,” “That would solve 70 or 80 percent of the problem.”

Why hasn’t it happened yet?

The roots of Turkey’s denial of the genocide, Akcam said, lay with the founding of the Turkish republic in 1923.

“The founders of the republic were members of the party which organized the genocide,” … “They either participated in the killing, or they became rich by plundering Armenian property. It’s not easy for a state or a nation to call its founding fathers murderers and thieves.”

but the germans faced their bloody past

armenians are well aware of the fact , there were revange acts and resistance ..this is true too.. but for this i don´´t hav eto be ashamed ..i am proud of the smal resistance during the genocide…

on 21 Oct 2007 at 8:34 pm
33 Erol


I am going to take your personal comments

“You’re quite the dramatist and you’re also quite the amusing denialist. Call it a war if you wish, bring up your stilted facts, etc. etc.,”

as a compliment.

However, I just can’t understand why, you are all afraid of a debate, or why you will not take the Ottoman Empire to court on your allegations of Genocide.

Can you answer that?


on 21 Oct 2007 at 8:38 pm
34 Jason Steck

If commenters cannot make their points without using personal attacks, labels (i.e. “denialist”) or characterizations about an entire ethnic group (i.e. the comments that have been made about how all “Turks” are immoral or are liars or are bribed), then the commenters responsible will be banned without further warning.

We have had enough of this. Grow up and argue like mature adults, all of you.

on 21 Oct 2007 at 8:48 pm
35 Erol


Mankind is anything but kind. Throughout recorded history, we are finding out that many many civilizations were destroyed and burned to the ground. The fact is, Armenians were DEFEATED in a WAR, they lost their country… again I ask you to read the 1st President of Armenian and his comments regarding what happened.

The Geneva Convention did not exist back than…. nor rules of engagement of wars….. It was brutal …. Mankind was brutal.

You can not take today’s rules and make them retroactive, 100 years ago. If that was possible, than we need to go back in time, (with a time machine) and apply the all of the new rules and regulations, that “mankind”, has imposed upon itself today. Even today, we still have Genocides going on right this minute. But it is IMPOSSIBLE to go back in time and impose the rules of today.

In fact, prior to rules that the some treaty imposed (I can’t remember the treaty name) but it was only established in in the last century after WWI. Where it was okay to be an aggresor to protect one’s territory. In other words, any country could attack it’s neighbor without warning, just to protect itself. Even if they were not provoked. Ottoman’s did not invent the aggresion, mankind did. Those were the rules, either be invaded or invade, those were the rules prior to the establishment, of I believe the United Nations. Very recently. Sadly enough, Genocide still happens today.

So, here you are trying to apply today’s rules on yesterday’s events. You can not do that. On top of it, Turkey did not even exist in 1915!!!! On top of that, Turkey’s founder overthrew the Ottoman Empire. Technically Turks owe NO ONE any apologies because they were not even in existance.


on 21 Oct 2007 at 9:35 pm
36 Areen

Denialist is a fitting label. It’s not a personal attack.

Also, again, no one’s afraid of a debate. Just as soon as Turks in Turkey can call the events by their true name without fear of prosecution or murder, like in the case of poor Hrant Dink . Then talk would not just be possible, but would be the preferred course of action. Until then, international pressure is the way to go. The more we bring it up, the more Turks are made to look ridiculous in their exaggerated responses to simple declarations of the truth. It only works in our favor and makes the Turks look anachronistic and backwards. The longer this goes on, the more the Turkish street will be forced to come to terms with the truth as their pangs of logic and reason become less obstructed by raging nationalist sentiment.

As to your last posting, so now your relativism has become a pan-mankind, pan-historic sort of relativism. The bars been set pretty low then, i.e. just because mankind was cruel, is cruel, and always will be cruel, then we can’t call events by their proper name because it would unjustly single out a group of people. What an interesting, albeit frightening proposition…lol.

Also, the word genocide may have been coined after the events of 1915, but what came first, the meaning or the word? Surely it was the former.

Anyways Erol, take care. Keep trying to spread your message through poorly conceived and roundabout messages on marginal internet message boards while the truth makes its way into the textbooks of the world, the halls of international organizations, and various legislatures. Fight the good fight. You’re really making a difference.


on 21 Oct 2007 at 9:38 pm
37 eddy

Erol –so your denail is all about land and stolenarmenian property ?

if 100 years are to much..so why are turks saying no, no, my father , groundparents couldn´´t be a murder? or why is acting turkey like a faild state.. ?

recognition of Armenian Genocide has nothing to do with the lost “West Armenai an dpart of east Armenia”

but any way in 1915 there was the internationla regulation of War on Land aggrement of Hague 1908 … in force.. if armenians in 1915 were “Spionins” in their historicla homeland so by the hague conv. of 1908 Turkish gov was for their security responsible…

soory for my in your heart you are a ultranationalist… what troubles you is the fact that Armenians have Mt. ARART in their hearts.. you have it but you are not sure if you have it and can enjoy the life…

but i go for a drink…. and i will laugh on turkish politicas and Turkey just being so paranoid , even though..but …this is realy sad.. that turkey is getting day by day sick trough its denial-policy ..as if this were turks who has gone through a genocide and have lost everything… but turkey has lost only its memory…

on 21 Oct 2007 at 9:39 pm
38 Areen

And also, thanks for the free publicity.

on 21 Oct 2007 at 9:41 pm
39 eddy

i was to fast…

Erol –so your denail is all about land and stolen armenian property ?

if 100 years are to much..so why are turks saying no, no,no, no my father , groundparents couldn´´t be a murder? or why is acting turkey like more and more a faild state.. ?

recognition of Armenian Genocide has nothing to do with the lost “West Armenai and part of east Armenia”

but any way in 1915 there was the internationla regulation of War on Land aggrement of Hague 1908 … in force.. if armenians in 1915 were “Spionins” in their historicla homeland so by the hague conv. of 1908 Turkish gov was for their security responsible…

soory for my in your heart you are a ultranationalist… what troubles you is the fact that Armenians have Mt. ARART in their hearts.. you have it but you are not sure if you have it and can ´´t really enjoy the life…

but i go for a drink…. and i will laugh on turkish politicas and Turkey just being so paranoid , even though..but …this is realy sad.. that turkey is getting day by day sick trough its denial-policy ..as if this were turks who has gone through a genocide and have lost everything… but turkey has lost only its memory

on 21 Oct 2007 at 10:31 pm
40 Erol

Areen and Eddy:

As I began in this exchange with you on this site, I told you how I felt about the needless deaths of the Armenians during the era in question. However, Armenians were not the ones who lost their lives. The missing element in H. Res 106. Turks did not invent Genocide as you all seem to think, label and propagate to the masses.

Your writtings showed me that you do not even recognize those souls.

Today you are committing Ethocide towards American’s with Turkish ancestery and all Turks, as well as the country Turkey. Do you know what that means?

“ethocide means “pre-meditated and systematic mass deception employed by any person, group, institution, country, or block of countries, to destroy partially or wholly, another person, group, institution, country, or block of countries, with the aim of benefiting from the results.”. By Ergun Kirlikovali


By the way, this was no debate, this is just labeling me without even knowing me as a person. I repeatedly asked you for answer to my question, that I never got.

“However, I just can’t understand why, you are all afraid of a debate, or why you will not take the Ottoman Empire to court on your allegations of Genocide.

Can you answer that?

Well, one thing I did accomplish, and that was, that at least I was able to make you laugh. Laughter is good medicine, I hope it cures your hate towards someone who has no hate for you or all of the dead.

I am not a historian, just common man wanting to have a dialogue and try to show my compassion through words, which sometimes get in the way. My hopes are to bring Armenians of Diaspora and Turks together and be friends. That is my true goal. But I see I have failed in this exchange, but there will be others.

There are no winners here …. this is not a race …. it is a sad for all… I wish both of you success in your endeavors and hope that you will find in your hearts, that there are people out there that do share your pain because they too, have sufferred and or suffering.

I for one, want to end the sufferring by establishing first a dialogue, but I see that the words I use do not matter or are being misunderstood, even turned around. I can not communicate in a vacuum. Unfortunately on this platform, words are all I have to offer to you, and the only tool, I have here to communicate my feelings to you. However, the element of respect is not there. Without mutual respect for each other, we can not establish a dialogue. Without dialogue, we can not move forward towards answers and solutions to the problem at hand.

Take care,

on 21 Oct 2007 at 10:33 pm
41 Michael van der Galiën

Very well said Erol and you handled the debate in a good, respectful manner.

on 21 Oct 2007 at 10:39 pm
42 Erol

Thank you Michael, your kind words mean alot to me. I believe this is an excellant site. I will visit it more often and bring more people here.

You have a great Sunday!!

on 21 Oct 2007 at 10:46 pm
43 Michael van der Galiën

Thank you, you too. You may have noticed that I didn’t participate very actively in the comment section, that’s not because I don’t agree with you, but because we’ve posted so much about it that most of the points ‘the other side’ continues to make have already been rebuted (by me and meltem aka turkish digest). Having said that, you had some very good points, which is why I wanted to let you know I appreciate your comments and the tone of them.

on 21 Oct 2007 at 10:50 pm
44 Areen

Erol…again…I said I’m for dialogue, but only whenever the events can be called by their name in Turkey. I guess you don’t read my comments, but only skim them…no problem though.

As far as the term ethocide you invoke, I hate to say it, but if you feel that’s what’s really being done by Armenians towards Turks, then you don’t understand the Armenian psyche in the slightest. All we seek is closure, and we go about it the only way that the modern Turkish state has left us, namely, to use our limited political, financial, and human resources all over the world to gain recognition.

All this would disappear in a day, if only the events were allowed to be called by their name and if the Turkish state issued an apology for the actions of their ancestors’ against the Armenians, Assyrians, and Greeks of the time, allowing the ancestors of these people to reclaim their cultural artifacts to preserve whats left of them for progeny…and you know, maybe even open the border with Armenia.

And this might be a shot in the dark, but maybe the Turkish state could treat the Kurds (”mountain turks”) of today properly.

It’s called tolerance. Look it up.

on 21 Oct 2007 at 10:52 pm
45 Areen

lol Michael…way to go buddy…keep on rebuttin’ “the other side.” Keep on copy pastin’. You’re fooling nobody.

I’m done. It’s been fun.

on 21 Oct 2007 at 10:56 pm
46 Michael van der Galiën

Actually, Areen - I appreciate reading what ‘the other side’ has to say, as long as it’s done a respectful manner.

on 21 Oct 2007 at 10:58 pm
47 Areen

Speak the truth…in fact, anything CLOSE to the truth, and then respect will follow.

on 21 Oct 2007 at 11:07 pm
48 Michael van der Galiën

But your version of the truth is, in my opinion, distorted. According to my research, the ‘truth’ is that it’s not as simple as some - in this case you - pretend. Am I wrong for pointing that out because that’s what I truly believe?

You understand?

The debate has to take place in a respectful manner. Calling people holocaust deniers, for example, isn’t doing you or your case any good.

on 21 Oct 2007 at 11:11 pm
49 Areen

It isn’t a debate my friend. It’s a psychological disorder for the Turkish nation. You’re “research” could perhaps embellish the established facts as they relate to rebellion and insurrection on a small scale, but the term genocide defines what those events were for the vast majority of historians…Armenian and non-Armenian alike.

If I gave you the false impression that I was debating you about the subject, then I guess wasn’t firm enough in my sarcasm or tongue in cheek.

on 21 Oct 2007 at 11:13 pm
50 eddy

well Erol … soory but believe me , believ eme “ADAM AND EVA WERENT TURKS” and soory for this ,but for me you are crying like the politicans in ankara… you like turkish ultranationalist like to kill the truth but this is not possible…

You just trying to justify a genocide , nothing else…!!

i don´´t compair Armenian Genocide with Jewish Holocaust and turks in 1915 with nazis but I do compair Turkey with Germany and other nations who had the courage to face their darke pages of their historey, maby armenians asking for to much…but the can not change anything… armeniand do not compair Armenian Genocide with Holocaust but Turks with Germans of after WW II….

there is not possible to have a dialog with turks just because, they think peopel were killed by documents turks have destroyed a big part of armenians in turkey and it sculture …., now , the turks are calling .. , show me, show me your documents.. where are documentsß

if there were documents turka have burnd with the peopel whome this docoments were belong to…

look, in germany there is big rich, very rich turkish comunity (maybe 1,8 Mil) Turkey and Turks predict the end of the world n 2005, if germany confirmms the fact of systematic annhilation of armenians but what was the result of turkish threats and blackmails:

your peoblem si to accept that before the genocide their were west armenia wich was occupied by turks! ..for armenias ahve never exist..because anatolia was alllways turksih and as the turks came to anatolia this was no mans land, but you are wrong…

############# the closest allay of Turkey, confirms: ##########

Excerpts from the rationale of the cross-party and unanimously adopted “Armenian Resolution” of the German Federal Parliament, which condoms the denial policy of Turkish government and asked Turkey to accept its history.
(Source: Lower House of the German Parliament Printed Matter 15/5689, 15th Legislative Period 15.06.05)

90 years ago, on April 24th, 1915, by order of the Young Turk movement steering the Ottoman Empire, the Armenian political and cultural elite were arrested, transported deeper inland and to a large extant put to death. For Armenians throughout the world, this date has become the Day of Remembrance for the expulsion and massacre of the Armenian subjects of the Ottoman Empire which had already begun towards the end of the 19th Century and, however, occurred to an even greater extant during the First World War.

At the start of the war the recruited Armenian soldiers of the Ottoman Army were combined into work battalions and, for the most part, murdered. As of spring 1915, the women, children and elderly were put on death marches through the Syrian Desert. Those among the expelled who did not die or get murdered while underway suffered this fate at the latest in the inhumane camps located the desert around Deir ez Zôr. Massacres were also carried out by special task forces set up specifically for this purpose.
High-ranking Turkish civil servants who voiced resistance to these procedures as well as criticism from the Ottoman Parliament were met by the Young Turk Regime with brutal rejection. Many areas from which the Christian Armenians were expelled were then resettled with Kurds or Muslim refugees of the Balkan Wars…

According to impartial calculations, over one million Armenians were victim to the deportation and mass murder. Numerous independent historians, parliaments and international organizations describe the expulsion and annihilation of the Armenians as genocide.

To date, the Republic of Turkey – the legal successors of the Ottoman Empire – still continues to deny the fact that these actions were systematic in nature and/or that the mass deaths during the resettlement marches and the massacres were committed intentionally by the Ottoman government…Turkish justification is that the Armenians used of force and armed resistance against Turks during the Turkish resettlement measures…

As a whole, the magnitude of the massacres and deportation that occurred in Turkey is still played down and largely denied. This attitude of Turkey is in direct contradiction to the idea of reconciliation which stands at the forefront of the European Union’s community of values. Even today historians in Turkey are still not free to deal with the history of deportation and murder of Armenians; despite relaxation of the previously existing liability of punishable culpability, they are still subject to great pressure.

As the main military ally of the Ottoman Empire, the German Empire was likewise deeply involved in these events. From the outset, both the political and the military leadership of the German Empire were fully informed of the persecution and murder of the Armenians.
The files of the foreign office, which consist of reports from the German Ambassadors and Consuls to the Ottoman Empire, document the systematic implementation of the massacres…”

do not forget the armenians have the truth on thier side… arabs, romans, greecks, persians, russians, etc.. had occupied armenia , tehy did a lot of harm to armenian peopel/nation…but non of them had acted for a peace of land like barbarians as did turks in 1915-1923..and we are proud because we have servived a turkish laid genocide…

have nice

PS: truth will set you all free…

on 22 Oct 2007 at 12:02 am
51 Erol

Dear Eddy:

You survived because the Ottoman Empire did not exterminate you, they showed compassion, relative to the environment they were faced with. They could have done it better, if the conditions allowed it.

The times and conditions were not right for such a relocation. There were no JETS, helicopters no …. and very little resources during that time to ensure the relocation, of a Civil Uprising by the Dashnuk’s who led your people down the wrong path and you all lost. We all lost!

As far as real estate, don’t you think that the resolution’s in the free world, are all about a real estate transaction that will not take place? You want reparations and land, that is your fight, your not fooling anyone. Turkey is a beautiful country, rich of resources and historical artifacts and strategically located, surrounded by 4 seas.

The conditions of War is not good and never has been, had Armenia was fighting a WAR, on 3 fronts, trying to survive, and a Civil uprising occurred, what would they have done? Allowed their enemies to massacre them? Give me a break. We can not change what has happened, it is history, we need to look towards a better future.

Barbara Lerner gives a good account of what happened and the conditions during the time we are talking about. I know you may not even read it, but she does give a good account about the conditions, both Armenians and Ottomans were living. It was not like today, the INSTANT GRATIFICATION generation.


By the way, what makes you think I am even totally Turkish and from Ankara? My name? My accolades …. My family roots dating back to the 1600 hundreds, show I even have Armenian blood in me. I do not endorse everything the Turkish Government does or believes, I am an American my loyalties here for the United States of America, practicing my rights under the 1st Ammendment.

Trying to understand your soul…. I was saddened by your comments and thus I am trying to find the answers, you posed, in an attempt to reach a dialogue with you. Because my belief in communication is, that the person who is trying to communicate to another, owns the responsibility of getting their message accross - I have perhaps failed, because I could not get my message across to you.

Thus I must seek the reasons why and to find the answer, I must understand your soul as you pointed. But understanding a soul who has no understanding of other souls, shows only one thing, a vacuum. No communication can occur in a vacuum, one sided …. No my friend - it always takes two to tango…..

Take care,

on 22 Oct 2007 at 12:31 am
52 Areen

“They could have done better but they didn’t”

That’s your argument, ey? You’ve really got the kinks worked out there.

on 22 Oct 2007 at 1:06 am
53 Erol

Thank you Areen - you have set me free, with your version of the “truth.” You are a living testament to that, with what you had to offered me in a way of words, phrases and feelings. I do thank you for your time and words spent, it was not a waste time for you, nor for me.

May you live a happy, healthy and prosperous life. I can not change what happened 100 years ago, all I can do is help create an evironment to heal what did happen, by dialogue leading to the closure to the events we are both trying to resolve in our own ways.

Although they clash at this point in time, at least I was able to communicate with you to some degree, and allow you to bash me, it is okay - because your words only speak of yourself, not me because you don’t know me or what is in my heart or soul. However that is your loss, not mine.

Although, I wish I could change the past - like I said - communication and dialogue with respect is the key to a beginning of perhaps answers to your wishes. It can not and will not go anywhere, with the current strategy of the Armenian Diaspora. For a better tomorrow.


on 22 Oct 2007 at 1:49 am
54 Lazlee

In denial: the Armenian Diaspora.

In the words of their own leader, before any relocation orders issued (the first order issued in May 1915), Armenians in vast numbers openly began fighting against the Ottoman regime on behalf of Russia.

At the link below are the words of Gregorin Pasdermadjian, a leader of the Dashnak Revolutionary forces and one time representative to the Ottoman parliament. This work’s copyright has expired so it may be copied and distributed freely. I recommend it to all Armenians in the audience.


As I read Pasdermadjian’s words, the Allies’ success in defeating the eastern front of the Ottoman Empire are largely due to the assistance of the Armenian Revolutionary forces. Professor Justin McCarthy concludes the same.

Pasdermadjian clearly states, as has Katchzanouni, that Armenian Revolutionary forces began waging war against the Ottomans in 1914.

So, here you have an Empire being attacked on all sides by the Allies, and according to Pasdermadjian, about 160,000 of its own cArmenian citizens sabotaging its military’s efforts to defend the eastern border.

Exactly how should the Ottoman regime responded?

And, all those who like to compare events of WWI to the holocaust, please provide a source for information about Jews in Germany who took action comparable to those described by Pasdermadjian before WWII started.

I promise, I will read it, and am open to changing my mind about this.

on 22 Oct 2007 at 1:36 pm


This is perverse at all you write

“You survived because the Ottoman Empire did not exterminate you,”

while reading the frist line of your posting I gave up to read your post

It seems the problem of turkish ultranactinalist is not with the fact of Armenian Genocide, but many turks have problem that Armenians have survived this genocide after all…

I have much respect fordecent, honest and well educate Turks .. I knoe many Turks, Muslims, Arabs had helped in different way many Armenians to survive this Genocide


I do believe, for Armenians , Armenia and world freedom current Turkey is unpredictable and a big portion of its society and its rulers are able to repeat such a crime like the one as the Armenian Genocide any time. . Turkish nationalism – with its deep religious roots- which is being systematic promoted by Turkish government (in order to blackmail democratic countries) is not less dangerous than the NAZI SS and the ideology of “Al-Qaida…

Turkish nationalism (Turkishness) can be cause of WW III

on 22 Oct 2007 at 1:58 pm
56 Areen

Eddy, it’s entirely within the realm of possibility that they don’t believe their ancestors could commit a crime as heinous as genocide. Just leave them be. There’s no use wasting your breath or text on them. We’re winning the battle for truth, and that’s all that matters.

Lav ku lini amen inch.

on 22 Oct 2007 at 4:03 pm

I l leave them.. they hav estarted to blackmail EU too….

ANKARA is pumping money and rude nationalism, but not logic, when it comes to truth..


Turkish extremists destroyed and burned Armenian café in Brussels
22.10.2007 17:49 GMT+04:00
/PanARMENIAN.Net/ Last night some 200 people, belonging to Gray Wolves extreme movement, destroyed and set to fire the Jardin de Babylone café owned by an Iraqi Armenian in the neighborhood Saint-Josse-Ten-Noode of Brussels.

A little before in the evening the hooligans had pulled out then burned the American flag which was hanging on the frontage of the U.S. Embassy.

Mehmet Koksal, a Belgian journalist of Turkish origin, who filmed the scene, was severely beaten by the extremists howling hostile and insulting the U.S. slogans.

This demonstration would have a direct relation to the Turkish-Kurdish confrontation that has claimed lives of 12 Turkish soldiers are 23 Kurdish rebels.

As a PanARMENIAN.Net came to know from the European Armenian Federation, some 20 people were in the café at that moment. None of them was hurt. However, a policeman, who was at the site, is reported to be injured.


on 22 Oct 2007 at 7:16 pm
58 Erol


With all respect to you, my use of the word “exterminate” is no differant from the word “Genocide”, so I beg to differ with you. However, you are very right, it was tasteless.

I admit it was a harsh word but I am anything but a ultranationalist, whatever that is, not am I a liar as you accuse me of. However, if my choice of words, hurt you - I apologize for that, it was not my intention. I too am human and capable of making errors from time to time.

Everything I presented here, comes from many sources, some which I have shown you, which you do not consider reliable. Even your own President’s words are not enough.

So what’s the point?

As I pointed out, for us to have a meanful exchange, I believe we need to respect one another, if that bridge is out, we are not going to be able to reach either side.

Take care, again I do apologize for my tasteless words.

on 22 Oct 2007 at 7:32 pm
59 Erol

I don’t believe you understand the Turkish People living in Turkey.

Most could careless, if they joined the EU or not, business still goes on, irregardless.

I am against Turkey joining the EU because it is a Christian Club, and it does not want a so called Moslem country in it. The EU is filled with bigots ….. and live in the dark ages, they never came out of. But still Turkey and EU countries are doing business at record levels. 70 percent of the TV’s in EU are made in Turkey, that is just tip of the iceberg. EU needs Turkey, but Turkey does not need the EU. I am against Turkish policy and politicians who are still trying to get into this club, that does not want it. Most Turks feel this way, because I don’t feel Turkey is ready in many ways to be in this club and will not be. The reason is, they are new to the world of business, only 27 years in the global markets, and doing quite well, but they have a long way to go, in my mind.

By the way, did you know that many Christians live and reside in Turkey. Turkey is not all moslem, nor does their constitution state that you have to be a moslem. Everyone is free to practice whatever religion they want.

I too am disgusted with the news item you posted here, regarding the violent act of the Grey Wolves, but it is not in the context of the Debate. I despise violence or any form of it. I condem this act as I am sure 99 percent of Turks do.

on 22 Oct 2007 at 11:42 pm
60 Areen

Many Christians did live in Turkey…not so much today.

on 23 Oct 2007 at 1:36 am
61 Joe

Let me be clear what can be defined as genocide.

1. Ottoman Empire did not establish Gas Chambers for Armenians, as Nazis did on Jewish people.

2. Ottoman Empire did not perform fierce medical experiments on Armenians, as Nazis did on Jewish people.

3. Ottoman Empire did not create concentration camps for Armenians, as Nazis did on Jewish people.

4. Ottoman Empire did not regard Armenians as lower rank race, as Nazis did on Jewish people.

on 23 Oct 2007 at 1:57 am
62 Joe


You were asking what happened to Christians lived in Turkey…not so much today.

In historical order,

Armenians living in Anatolia have been forced to migrate since they fought against Ottoman Empire through World War I. Some of them is still living in Syria, Lebanon and Isreal now. Some of them voluntarily moved to Armenia at that period.

After World War I, Greece attacked to Anatolia, a small scale war happened and they lost against Turks. So, there was an agreement between Greece and Turkey and they exchanged Muslim population in Greece with Christian population in Turkey to stop further conflict between these countries. So, Christian Population in Turkey reduced substantially by this aggreement. Even some orthodox origined Turks have been sent to Greece, since they are Christian. Same was case for Greece origined Muslims.

After establishment of Turkey, there had been some remaining Christian and Jewish population in Turkey (around %20 of overall population) living in cities mostly. They migrated from Turkey to US, Europe and Israel because of economical hardships country was going through at that period and other reasons.

Additionally, since the establishment of Turkey, there has been various forced and unforced muslim migration from Balkan region and other neighbouring regions increasing Turkey’s population.

That’s why non-muslim population is currently very low in Turkey. I guess the number should be less than one percent. But there are still active Armenians churches, Jewish sinagogs and other type of temples.

on 23 Oct 2007 at 6:54 am
63 Areen

Joe, I know Christians still live in Turkey. I have many friends in the Istanbul Armenian community. My point is that there’s very few left. I wasn’t questioning as to why this is the case, because I know precisely why: it’s called GENOCIDE.

As far as your explanation though, way to whitewash your facts. You describe this sad history of Christians in Turkey very casually, as if millions of people just picked up and left willfully. It just happened. No big deal.

Turks say leave it to the historians. I guess that’s code for leave it solely to unquestioning and irrational Turkish historians.

Must be nice to live in a parallel historical universe that starts and ends within the borders of present day Turkey while the rest of the world acknowledges and studies the true facts about Turkish history.

Again, I repeat, I’m not here to debate anything because there is no debate. I’m here to add a little sardonic twist of truth to falsities being propagated on a random internet message board that I’ve somehow added to my bookmarks list.

on 23 Oct 2007 at 1:34 pm
64 Armenians blame this to every one but the Armenians

There is a legitimate historical controversy concerning the interpretation of the events in question and most of the scholars who have propounded a contra genocide viewpoint are of the highest calibre and repute, including Bernard Lewis, Stanford Shaw, David Fromkin, Justin McCarthy, Guenther Lewy, Norman Stone, Kamuran Gürün, Michael Gunter, Gilles Veinstein, Andrew Mango, Roderic Davidson, J.C. Hurwitz, William Batkay, Edward J. Erickson and Steven Katz.

This is by no means an exhaustive list. A good number of well-respected scholars recognize the deportation decision in 1915, taken under World War I conditions, as a security measure to stop the Armenians from co-operating with the foreign forces invading Anatolia.

On the legal aspect, the elements of the genocide crime are strictly defined and codified by the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Genocide, adopted by the General Assembly on 9 December 1948. However, Armenians, claiming that “the evidence is so overwhelming”, so far have failed to submit even one credible evidence of genocide.

on 23 Oct 2007 at 4:38 pm
65 Areen

Sure…copy paste something a Turkish ambassador published.

on 23 Oct 2007 at 9:15 pm
66 Erol


What makes your words so much more important or valid than anyone else’s? In your world as you have portrayed on this site show that you can not see beyond yourself. The world does not revolve around one individual, we are a society of men and women with differant cultures, thoughts, experiences. Everyone has a right to express their opinions and experiences and if you are a part of society, one of your duties as a civilized human being is to also listen to others about their thoughts and experiences or whatever it may be they are trying to convey to you.

You live in a vacuum my friend, you need to get out of yourself and see the perception you have created of your own identity not only here but everywhere you probably go and interact with people. Interacting with people requires the basic element of knowing to listen to others as well, it is a two way exchange, it doesn’t work, if the exchange is only one way. With your posts, you are shutting out individuals totally, some who want to actually reach you.

I am sad that your perception of reality is so confined to only one thesis, it has unfortunately consumed your soul and has become your life mission. More power to you, however, your hatred and unwillingness to have a civil dialogue, will eventually consume you.

You too are also one of gods children and I pray that one day, you will see that not everyone is as bad as you seem to think they are.

Source: The Van Der Galiën Gazette


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