01 March 2010

3018) Turkey and Armenia's Battle Over History : 60 Minutes : CBS & Comments by Sukru Server Aya




Source: http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/battle-over-history/



Bob Simon Reports on the Longtime Feud Between Turkey and Armenia over Genocide
Feb. 28, 2010

(CBS) Wars are fought over oil, land, water, but rarely over history, especially about something that happened nearly 100 years ago. But that's what Turkey and Armenia are still fighting over: what to label the mass deportation and subsequent massacre of more than a million Christian Armenians from Ottoman Turkey during World War I.

Armenians and an overwhelming number of historians say that Turkey's rulers committed genocide, that its actions were a model for what Hitler did to the Jews. The Turks, meanwhile, say their ancestors never carried out such crimes, and that they too were victims in a world war.

Ever since, this battle over history has not only ensnared the two nations but even the White House and Congress, where resolutions officially recognizing the genocide are currently moving through the House and Senate.

But our story begins where the lives of so many Armenians ended, far from Istanbul, in the desert.

"60 Minutes" and correspondent Bob Simon took a drive into what is now Syria, to the barren wilderness, to what amounts to the largest Armenian cemetery in the world.

"As many as 450,000 Armenians died here," author Peter Balakian told Simon.

Balakian is an Armenian American who has written extensively about what happened in this desolate place.

According to Balakian, 450,000 Armenians died in this spot in the desert. "In this region called Deir Zor, it is the greatest graveyard of the Armenian Genocide," he explained.

Deir Zor is to Armenians what Auschwitz is to Jews. The most ghoulish thing about the place is that 95 years later the evidence of the massacres is everywhere.

Just a short distance from the banks of Euphrates there's a dump. It's also the site of a mass grave. It has never been excavated. All we had to do was scratch the surface of the sand to collect evidence of what had happened here.

Under the surface was evidence of bones. "It's the hill full of bones," said Dr. Haroot Kahvejian, an Armenian dentist who showed Simon around.

"Nobody bothered to dig them up until now?" Simon asked. . .

It was extraordinary standing on a mound where perhaps thousands of people lie entombed. There is no record of who they were or where they could have come from.

"Look at that. There are kids who know exactly where they are. They are finding them by the dozen," Simon observed.

"Evidence comes in many forms. It comes in photographs, it comes in texts and telegrams," Balakian said. "And it also comes in bones."

So just how did all these bones end up here?

In 1915, the First World War was raging and the Ottoman Empire was crumbling. The Armenians were a Christian minority who were considered infidels by the ruling Muslims -- a fifth column who sided with the enemy in the war.

The fact that they were prosperous didn't help, says Balakian, whose great uncle survived the genocide and wrote about it in a memoir Armenian Golgotha.

"Like the Jews of Europe the Armenians of the Ottoman Empire had a dominant role in commerce and trade, they were highly educated, many of them," Balakian.

And he said they were highly resented.

Asked what happened next, Balakian said, "What happens from the spring of 1915 on through the summer is a well orchestrated project of government planned arrests and deportations."

Some were forced to buy round trip tickets for train journeys from which they never returned. They ended up in box cars; the rest, mostly women and children were forced on death marches for hundreds of miles. Many perished from starvation, disease or brutal killings. The survivors ended up in concentration camps hundreds of miles from Istanbul, out of sight.

At the time of the deportations, American diplomats in the region sent dispatches to Washington detailing what they had seen and heard. Just weeks after the arrests had begun, Henry Morgenthau the U.S. ambassador, sent off this one: "Deportation of and excesses against peaceful Armenians is increasing and from harrowing reports of eyewitnesses it appears that a campaign of race extermination is in progress…"


To this day the Turks vigorously deny there was any such campaign.
When we spoke to Nabi Sensoy, he was Turkey's ambassador to Washington.

"We were in Syria, sir, and we scratched the sand and came up with bones. How can you argue with that?" Simon asked the ambassador.

"Well bones you can find anywhere in Turkey, you know. There have been a lot of tragedies that have happened in those lands," he replied.

"Excuse me, sir. We dug up these bones in a place called Deir Zor, which Armenians say is their equivalent of Auschwitz," Simon pointed out.

"Well, I don't think that it was anything to comparable to Auschwitz. This was only deportation. And things happened on the road," Sensoy replied.

"But the deportations ended in massacres, didn't they?" Simon asked.

"No, it did not," the ambassador insisted.

"Weren't there massacres, mass executions and death marches of the Armenians?" Simon asked.

"There was no death marches of Armenians. There was deportation and tragic things happened. Many people perished under the deprivations of the First World War," Sensoy said.

But did what happen in 1915 amount to genocide? The UN defines it as the intent to destroy a racial, ethnic or religious group.

"The most important thing is the intent. The killings are something else. It happened on both sides. But whether it constitutes genocide is another matter. It is a legal word and it should not be lightly used," Sensoy explained.

"But you're saying there was no intention of the Turkish government…," Simon said.

"There was no intention of annihilating in all or in part the Armenian population," Sensoy said.

Bishop Sarkin Sarkissian is convinced that the massacres were intended and meticulously executed. He showed us one of the caves into which he said untold numbers of Armenians, women and children were thrown.

It was, the Armenians believe, a primitive gas chamber.

According to the bishop, they lit fires at the mouth of the cave.

"And the people inside couldn't breathe anymore?" Simon asked.

"Exactly. And there is no other way to escape out," Bishop Sarkissian replied.

The Ottoman Turks developed a template, which according to genocide scholars, was later adopted by the Nazis.

"Most dramatically we have Adolf Hitler saying eight days before invading Poland in 1939, 'Who today, after all, speaks of the annihilation of the Armenians?' Hitler was inspired by the Armenian extermination. You know, it made him think, 'Well, sure you know, you can get rid of a hated minority group and if you're powerful and your side wins, that event will never get recorded,'" Balakian explained.

The Turks dispute the evidence that Hitler ever uttered those words or was inspired by the events of 1915. Nonetheless, when the Ottomans were swept from power, and the modern Turkish state was founded, all memory of what happened to the Armenians was erased. Records were destroyed, a new alphabet was adopted and ever since, the massacres have not been taught in schools.

The use of the word genocide is regarded as an insult to Turkish nation; it is a jailable offense.

Hrant Dink, who edited an Armenian newspaper in Turkey, was prosecuted three times for insulting the Turkish nation. He also received thousands of death threats from extremists, but kept on writing.

His daughter Delal recalls the Turkish authorities telling her father they couldn't protect him.

"They were kind of warning my father about what might happen. And the days following that, nationalists groups came in front of Agos [her father's newspaper] ... in front of the newspaper shouting that he's their target. And he's their enemy. And one day they will come for him," Delal Dink remembered.

Days later, as he stepped outside that same office, he was shot at point blank range.

Dink is viewed as a martyr now, in Armenia, where he is seen as the latest victim of the genocide. His picture emerges from the wall of flowers on a hillside outside the capital Yerevan, where every April hundreds of thousands attend a memorial to remind the Turks, and the world, of what they went through. They pay homage to those who died nearly a century ago. It's as if the entire country turns out for what is emotionally a funeral, a burial the victims never had.

And on the same day, in Times Square, thousands of Armenian Armenians gather to demand that Congress pass a resolution recognizing the genocide.

Two years ago, before a resolution was to be put to a vote in the House, Turkey recalled Ambassador Sensoy in protest. Its president warned of "serious troubles" and its top general said that military ties with the U.S. would never be the same. To limit further damage, the Bush administration and eight former secretaries of state then weighed in to kill the bill. It worked.

"Eight former secretaries of state rallied behind Turkey to defeat that resolution," Simon told Ambassador Sensoy. "Why do you think that was, Sir?"

"Well, I think it's the importance of Turkey for the United States. We have a long list of positive agenda between us," he replied.

And the items on that list, Sensoy says, are far more important than the Armenian issue: Turkey is, after all, a regional superpower and an essential broker between the U.S. and the Muslim world. It has the second largest army in NATO and the U.S. relies on the country's Airbases for its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Seventy percent of American supplies to those wars go through Turkey, which is also a crucial conduit for oil.

Which is probably why no U.S. president has uttered the word genocide.

During his presidential campaign, Candidate Obama promised that, if elected, he would use the word. "The Armenian genocide," he said, "is a widely documented fact supported by an overwhelming body of historical evidence."

But when President Obama made his first overseas trip to Turkey, he never mentioned the word.

Late last year, the U.S. brokered an agreement between Turkey and Armenia to establish diplomatic relations, with one key condition: that a historical commission be formed to rule on whether a genocide took place. Nearly six months later, the deal appears to be unravelling. The battle over the use of the word is far from over.



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Comments on: Turkey and Armenia's Battle over History Bob Simon Reports on the Longtime Feud Between Turkey and Armenia over Genocide



by Figaro12 March 4, 2010 1:38 PM EST
Even the Turiksh government in these days admitts that.. "during WW1 of the War the Turkish government did relocate most of the Armenian population through forced marches mainly from Anatolia to Syria. ..."in the course of which hundreds of thousands Armenians lost their lives,...'accidentally' as a result of the hunger and devastating humanitarian conditions of WW1".

WHERE THE MASSACRES WELL PLANNED ? DID THEY INTEND TO DESTROY THE WHOLY ARMENIAN POPULATION OF ANATOLIA ?

It can only be obvious to any researcher, that the collapsing Ottoman Empire, after so many years of wars, against so many enemies from all sides (Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs, in the Balkan Wars), tried to dodge the Armenian Question, by the extermination of its population. And that is absolutely proved, by the very well organised and operated thunder arrest and killing of 600 intellectualls and spiritual leaders of the Armenian community on the 24th of April 1915. There can be no other reason to arrest, the spiritual leaders, writers and intellectuals of any community than to cripple the head of the body you intend to finish. The evidence can not be denied. Someone can find the original hand-written order issued on April 24 1915 by a leading figure of the young Turks, Talaat.(www.en.wikisource.org/wiki/Circular_on_April_24_1915)

There are so many eye-witness reports and assertions on what was happening during WW1 in Anatolia, from so many different sources, that there is no real space for doubt.

In the words of H. Morgenthau (Ambassador of the U.S in the Ottoman empire) "When the Turkish authorities gave the orders for these deportations, they were merely giving the death warrant to a whole race; they understood this well, and, in their conversations with me, they made no particular attempt to conceal the fact..."

" the whole history of the human race contains no such horrible episode as this. The great massacres and persecutions of the past seem almost insignificant when compared to the sufferings of the Armenian race in 1915." (Ambassador Morgenthau's story, 1918)


DID THE ARMENIAN REVOLUTIONARIES POSE A REAL THREAT TO THE OTTOMAN STATE ? DID THE ARMENIAN REVOLUTIONARIES COLLIDE WITH INVADING RUSSIANS AND START MASSACRING MUSLIM CIVILIANS IN ANATOLIA ?

Let's not forget that Turkey was an Empire at the time that had just lost enormous territotries in the Balkan Wars of Independence against Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria and Romania. Let's not forget that the Ottoman Empire was between the biggest powers of the time and was capable of holding repeated wars against Russia in the 18th century, and Russia France, and Britain during WW1. Armenian revolutionaries where just another ehtnicity looking for their own independence from the Ottoman Empire. Armenian revolutionaries did collide with invading Russians and fought against the Ottoman Empire to assert their right of self determination. Turkish attempts to bargain down the Armenian Genocide by claiming that Armenians also massacred muslims are totally in vain, since tha Ottoman Empire colliding with Germany was in the middle of large scale World War against the biggest powers of the time.

Let's not forget that massacres against the Armenians population in massive scales, had already started with the Hamidian Massacres of 1894-1896 when, between 100.000 and 300.000 where slaughtered. Armenian revolutionaries stood up against the Ottoman Empire in order to protect their own civilian population.

Since the middle ages and throughout the centuries Imperial and Colonial powers have ruled over other nations, through overwhelming power and might. Many times in history before, Imperial powers had used overwhelming might to suffocate a revolution. Many times in history before, Imperial Powers had slaughtered, resisting indigenous people and innocent civilians.

But it was the first time in history that an Imerial Power attempted to erase a acivilization on it's entire in such a brutal and inhummane manner.

Let's not forget that the term crime against hummanity was first used by the Tripartite Power during the First World War, based on the consent that such acts of horror should never happen again, under no circumsatances...



On May 24, 1915, the Allied Powers, Britain, France, and Russia, jointly issued a statement charging explicitly for the first time ever, another government of committing "a crime against humanity".

"In view of these new crimes of the Ottoman Empire against humanity and civilization, the Allied Governments announce publicly to the Sublime Porte that they will hold personally responsible for these crimes all members of the Ottoman Government, as well as those of their agents who are implicated in such massacres."[3](Wikipedia, Armenian Genocide, also...in Crimes Against Humanity(citing the original telegram sent by the U.S Department of State).


by Funky-President March 3, 2010 3:38 PM EST
Who will correct American history>?

PUBLISHED SEPT 4, 2001.

nytimes.com/2001/09/04/international/04GERM.html ?pagewanted=all

Earlier this year, administration officials said, the Pentagon drew up plans to engineer genetically a potentially more potent variant of the bacterium that causes anthrax..."



This was an engineered copy of a soviet anthrax strain containing silicon on the inside of the anthrax spore. We didn't (really weaponize it)add it to the outside until later...2003 if you believe the FBI. yet is was already resistant to some antibiotics and already had over 1% silicon in 2001. But if you belive them, the mail anthrax was made up to two years before the attacks.
Please check the dates and projects in the article and compare that to what the FBI said about the suspect.
It's alarming.


by Funky-President March 3, 2010 3:31 PM EST
Can we declare the Extermination of native American indians as Genocide also. It seems the genocide label would go over better if we took a look at ourselves.


by kplazlee March 3, 2010 3:29 PM EST
Here's a partial list of the 60+ third-party historians who conclude no genocide occurred during WWI:

Bernard Lewis
Stanford Shaw
David Fromkin
Justin McCarthy
Guenther Lewy
Norman Stone
Michael Gunter
Gilles Veinstein
Andrew Mango
Roderic Davidson
J.C. Hurwitz
William Batkay
Edward J. Erickson
Steven Katz
Edwin A. Grosvenor
Pierre Oberling
Dankwart Rostow
Heath Lowry
Avigdor Levy


by kplazlee March 3, 2010 3:18 PM EST
60 Minutes should take special notes of comments like this by the "genocide pushers".

Marialouisa, there is no such thing in the Koran. In fact, the Koran teaches that all who believe in one God are "people of the book" and that their religions and religious books are to be treated with great respect.

An entire chapter of the Koran is dedicated to Mary, mother of Jesus Christ. While the Koran does not consider Christ the son of God, it labels Christ and Abraham prophets of God.

Indeed, the Ottomans rescued Jews from the Catholic Church run Spanish inquisition in 1492. Their descendants still live and worship in synagogues all over the modern Republic of Turkey.

Your comment is either made of ignorance or intended to incite the hatred of people based solely on their religion--something Hitler promoted.


by kplazlee March 3, 2010 3:07 PM EST
Dear 60 Minutes,

Thank you for displaying your Christian crusader mentality and driving a wedge even further between people by your irresponsible and error laden "report."

First off, it is inconceivable that Bob Simon would pick up a piece of bone, and with no expertise whatsoever in archeology or any further scientific inquiry, not only declare it to be human, but also to be of Armenian origin from precisely 95 years ago with the death of that Armenian caused by Turks in a "concentration camp."

The utter contempt and disregard for truth, investigation and accurate reporting by your team is no less than astonishing.

On the most basic level, the constant reference to Turks was incorrect. There was no Turkey in 1915.

There was no "deportation" of anyone from the Ottoman Empire during WWI. Instead, there was a RELOCATION from a war front to another geographic location away from the fighting that was also WITHIN the Empire. Deportation implies exile from one country to another. No such thing occurred.

Next, the photos you displayed and represented as Armenians eerily resemble photographs of dead Ottoman Muslims, massacred at the hands of Armenian insurgents during WWI from the Ottoman archives.

Armenians have been parading photos of not only Ottoman Muslims they massacred, but also photos of Jews killed by Nazis during the Holocaust, and falsely claiming the photos depict Armenians killed by Ottomans (see for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0JzfCA2fFo).

How so very bigoted of you to so pointedly ignore the hundreds of thousands of Ottoman Muslims massacred by Armenians during WWI with the help of western nations like England, France, Russia and, yes, even the U.S.

How so very bigoted of you to also display a photo of Hrant Dink and placards describing him as a victim of "continuing genocide", while completely disregarding the several dozens of civilian Turks gunned down by Armenian terrorists in the streets of the U.S. and Europe from the 1970s through the 1990s.

Kemal Arikan, for example, was assassinated by a brainwashed Armenian teenager in Los Angeles, and like Dink he was married and a father. But, no Armenian in Los Angeles marched down the streets shouting in solidarity with Turks against senseless murders "We are all Turks" as did hundreds of thousands of Turks in Istanbul after Dink's murder.

No Armenian leader condemned the killing. Instead, Armenians collected money for the murderer's legal defense and consider him a HERO. Most do not know who Arikan is today. There are more than 70 such human tragedies that Armenians and so-called "reporters" like you shamefully ignore.

Your tears and concern are not for humanity; your tears are for one side only--Christians. Your tears are partisan. Your morality is selective, entirely un-American and positively medieval. If you had a conscience you would be ashamed.


by kakudu March 3, 2010 2:21 AM EST
they arent turks. they are enemy of turks and u are a fasist because muslim's terorizm was made by USA. bin ladin and saddam was a member of the usa. remember the past. and never forget it. history of TURKS have began b.c 3000 and still we live in the word but can u tell me about US history? muslims arent murder. we cant hit anybody. because our religion order us like this.


by factsveritas March 2, 2010 11:49 PM EST
Really? Look again at that page and view the forgeries. The one that stands out most as a well known forgery is the photo of Russian soldiers, probaly including Armenian recruits (yes not Turkish - though the correct word should be Ottoman) viewing the dead, most likely Ottoman (this is the photo with the caption:"Turkish soldiers proudly posing with bodies of their Christian victims.". No Ottoman soldier or officer has worn a hat with a visor, ever! The uniforms, once you look closely are also clearly Russian. The first two photos of dead people are also well known to be those of Moslems murdered by Armenian bands, and the web site will never be able to give a reference as to where they got those pictures. Do the people in the second picture of the dead really look like they are rejoicing? Look at the pained expressions on all the faces! How ingenious of the web page creator to assume that the Armenians from Kayseri posing in overcoats are to be killed in one hour! Really? The photo with the heads and officers does not match the period uniforms of the Ottoman officers, especially that of non-coms. The photo of a convoy of Armenians walking is from across page 152 of _Story of Near East Relief_(1930) by missionary James L. Barton, and carries the caption "In 1922-23 Near East Relief evacuated 22,000 children from orphanages in interior Turkey to Syria and Grece. These two pictures show part of the 5,000 children from Kharput en route on donkey back and foot". Thus, it is not the Ottomans (or Turks, as you wish) who made the people in the photo walk, it was the Near East Relief. The people who created that atrocious propaganda page should be ashamed of themselves. I have no problem giving the URL to the page, so that you can all see the forgeries for yourselves: http://www.bibleprobe.com/christianmartyrs-armenia.htm


by usofcredit March 2, 2010 9:22 PM EST
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28240840/


by usofcredit March 2, 2010 9:11 PM EST
muslims....nazis
they speak in parallels
bibleprobe.com has a collection of pictures of the muslims using the armenian bodies as trophies you may want to check out.


by usofcredit March 2, 2010 9:22 PM EST
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28240840/

by factsveritas March 2, 2010 11:49 PM EST
Really? Look again at that page and view the forgeries. The one that stands out most as a well known forgery is the photo of Russian soldiers, probaly including Armenian recruits (yes not Turkish - though the correct word should be Ottoman) viewing the dead, most likely Ottoman (this is the photo with the caption:"Turkish soldiers proudly posing with bodies of their Christian victims.". No Ottoman soldier or officer has worn a hat with a visor, ever! The uniforms, once you look closely are also clearly Russian. The first two photos of dead people are also well known to be those of Moslems murdered by Armenian bands, and the web site will never be able to give a reference as to where they got those pictures. Do the people in the second picture of the dead really look like they are rejoicing? Look at the pained expressions on all the faces! How ingenious of the web page creator to assume that the Armenians from Kayseri posing in overcoats are to be killed in one hour! Really? The photo with the heads and officers does not match the period uniforms of the Ottoman officers, especially that of non-coms. The photo of a convoy of Armenians walking is from across page 152 of _Story of Near East Relief_(1930) by missionary James L. Barton, and carries the caption "In 1922-23 Near East Relief evacuated 22,000 children from orphanages in interior Turkey to Syria and Grece. These two pictures show part of the 5,000 children from Kharput en route on donkey back and foot". Thus, it is not the Ottomans (or Turks, as you wish) who made the people in the photo walk, it was the Near East Relief. The people who created that atrocious propaganda page should be ashamed of themselves. I have no problem giving the URL to the page, so that you can all see the forgeries for yourselves: http://www.bibleprobe.com/christianmartyrs-armenia.htm




by RickCain4150 March 2, 2010 6:40 PM EST
Adolf Hitler suggested that nobody would care what the nazis do to the jews, if you took into account what the Turks did to the Armenians in 1915.

That comment pretty much speaks for itself.


by fehmicolpan March 2, 2010 10:51 AM EST
5
So, it is not surprising that both the book of Hovannes Katchaznouni, the first prime-minister of the Armenian state, ?Dashnagzoutiun Has Nothing to do Anymore? and the book of K.S.Papazian ?Patrionism Perverted? are banned in Armenia. It is also a fact that all the copies of the book of Hovannes Katchaznouni, in all languages were collected from the libraries in Europe by Dashnags. The book is included in the catalogues but no copies can be found in the racks.


It is not surprising either that, the Armenians even claim that nobody called A.A. Lalayan, the Soviet-Armenian historian, ever lived!

Yes, they can ban the books of the makers of their history, they can buy politicians by their votes and urge them to accept historical resolutions and memorial laws in their parliaments, they can threaten the historians who do not support their thesis, they can sue them, they can even bomb their houses

(http://209.232.239.37/gtd1/ViewIncident.aspx?id=56624), they can make the world opinion blind by their propaganda and may deceive some of them, but they can never ban scholar thought and silence all the historians of the world!


Note that Pierre Nora, president of the association ?Liberty for history? founded in 2005, has recently stated that the history should not be a slave to currency or written under the dictation of competing memoirs; in a free state, it does not belong to any political authority to define the historical truth and restrict freedom of the historian under threat of criminal sanctions. In a democracy, freedom for history is the freedom of all (http://www.lph-asso.fr//articles/46.html, . http://www.lph-asso.fr//tribunes/49.html)


by fehmicolpan March 2, 2010 10:49 AM EST
4
Of course, even these few examples give great harm to the present Armenian thesis and lead people to question the Armenian?s innocence, their predominance in Ottoman population, and most importantly their genocide thesis.

Of course, the fact that Turks offered the Dashnaks an autonomous Armenia (made up of Russian Armenia and the three Turkish vilayets of Erzurum, Van and Bitlis) under the suzerainty of the Ottoman Empire?, if they joined the Turkish side and stopped supporting the Russians, the other fact that the executive committee of the Dashnagzoutiun rejected the proposal in August 1914 before the war broke and that they rejected all other Turkish calls of negotiations repeated during WWI too, are the major points that are not wanted by the Armenians to be known

(Garo Past?rmac?an, Why Armenia Should be Free?, Boston, Dec.1918, Hairenik Publishing Company p. 16-17 and Papers relating to the foreign relations of the United States The Paris Peace Conference 1919 , United States Government Printing Office, 1948, Vol IV, p 139-157).

Of course they fear a question of why the Turks did offer autonomy to Armenians if they decided to eradicate them.

And they fear the question of why and how the Armenian prime minister Simon Vratzian applied the Turkish government on March 18, 1921 and asked military help of the Turks against the Bolsheviks, in spite of the fact that the Turks committed a (so-called) genocide and murdered 1.5 million Armenians!

And they also are very frightened of the question how the Ottoman Government eradicated 1,5 million of Armenians but in spite of this it was the Ottomans who first conceived the idea of founding an independent Armenia, and recognized it first. Moreover, it was the Ottoman Sultan who first wished not only the development of Armenian Republic, but that she be strong in order to retain her independence! Astonishingly, it was the Ottoman Sultan, who stated that friendly relations would always exist between the two countries.

That is, the Armenian ancestors who created their history (the top representatitives of the Ottoman Armenians, Dashnags and prime ministers of Armenia), the Armenian historians and poets who wittnessed this period and even the Armenian murderers of Turkish diplomats are the main deniers!


by fehmicolpan March 2, 2010 10:47 AM EST
3
Armenian T. Ha?iko?lyan who told that the Dashnaks eradicated thousands of Turks with their bloody hands (T. Ha?ikoglyan, 10 Let Armyanskoy Sttrelkovoy Divizii ,p4-6. ?zdatelstvo Polit. Uprav. KKA, Tiflis, 1930) was also a denier and agent of Turkish government.
1418

6
The Armenian poet Mikael Nalbandyan who wrote these lines in his poem ?The March of People of Zeytun, was another denier and Turkish nationalist:
?..?ad ?sdrugner ye?an azad/Miyayin menk mnank h?lu h?badag/Zeytuntsiner mer zposank/E baderazm yev ar?avank/ Sur, tur, k?ntag yev h?ratsan/ Mer kha?alik?n en havidyan?.?
(A lot of slaves were set free/ Only we were left who were obedient/Amusements of us, people of Zeytun are/ War and raid/ Our inexhaustible toys are/ Sword, saber, bullet and gun??.) (Nor Knar, p99). Zeytun was one of the places where the Armenians rebelled and massacred the Turks and Muslims.

The Armenian journalists of Armenian newspapers published in ?stanbul, like Hayrenik, were also deniers, since they praised the Ottoman government for letting the relocated Armenians return their previous locations in 1918 and allocated 2 million liras for their return. They were deniers since they also critized the Russians and other states for using the Armenians as their tools.
995

7
KS Papazian the writer of ?Patriotism Perverted? published in 1934, in Boston was also a denier. Because:

Papazian critized A. Khatisian and the then prime minister S.Vratzian for not publishing the text of Treaty of G?mr? which they signed on December 2, 1920 to put an end to the war between Turkey and the Armenian Republic on December 2, 1920, which coincided with the entrance of Bolsheviks in Armenia.

Papazian also stated that the Armenian prime minister Simon Vratzian applied to the Turkish government on March 18, 1921 and asked military help of the Turks against the Bolsheviks!

Even Gourgen M?g?rd?? Yan?kyan (age 78), the Armenian murderer of Los Angeles prime consul of Turkey Mehmet Baydar (age 49) and the co consul Bahad?r Demir (age 30) in Santa Barbara, in 1973, was a real denier, Turkish nationalist and agent of Turkish government. Because he admitted in his trial on June 13, 1973, via his attorney Lindsay that he (Yan?kyan) had been a member of an army made up of 10 000 volunteers to fight against the Turks in Armenia, in the beginning of March 1915 and in chief of this army had been an Armenian general called Andranik.


This had been prepared as four parties and had started to battle with the Turks in I?d?r, under the leadership of Russian general Dron and had proceeded to Van, they had occupied Van and meanwhile had destroyed and had fired Turkish villages (D??i?leri Bakanl???

by fehmicolpan March 2, 2010 10:46 AM EST
2
*British occupation aroused hopes of the Dashnaks,
*They were provoked by imperial Sea to Sea land demand,
*They had not taken into consideration Turkey?s power,
* They should have used a peaceful language towards the Turks but they (Armenian Dashnaks) rejected the Turks who suggested to negotiate with them and they went on making war
(KS Papazian the writer of ?Patriotism Perverted? published in 1934, in Boston, also confirms this Turkish suggestion. Note that ?Patrionism Perverted? is banned in Armenia).
*The decision of the deportation of Armenians was a rightful measure taken by Turks.
*Turkey had acted with an instinct of self-defence.
*Their government was a Dashnak dictatorship.
*The fault was within the Dashnak Party. They should commit suicide. They had nothing to do.

Vratsyan, the last prime minister of Dashnaks who wrote in an article published in December 3 1920 issue of Ara?, that they transformed Armenia to an arenna of endless wars with its neighbours for the Entente Powers (RGASP? fond 80, list 4, file 83, sheet 136) was another chief denier and agent of Turkish government.

Armenian Messrs. Ahonian and Hadissian who were the spokesmen of the Armenian delegation of the New Armenian Republic and visited Sultan Mehmet VI, Vahdeddin in Istanbul on September 6, 1918 were also Turkish nationalists. See the telegram sent by Mr Ahorian to the Armenian Prime Minister Kachaznuni:

?On September 6th, we presented our congratulations on his accession to the throne. We submitted our best wishes for the development of the Empire and its well-being and stated that the Armenian nation would never forget that it was the Ottoman Government which first conceived the idea of founding an independent Armenia, and recognized it, that the Armenian Government would do everything possible to protect friendly relations between the two countries and to strengthen them. His Majesty thanked and stated that he was very happy at seeing the envoys of independenbt and free Armenia, that he wished not only her development , but that she be strong in order to retain her independence. His Majesty is entirely convinced that friendly relations will always exist between the two neighboring countries, Turkey and Armenia, in order that both of them may develop. He concluded his remarks by stating that he was very hapy to see that Armenia had the strength to found an independent state which was able to send envoys to Istanbul, and repeated his best wishes for our country?. (Erich Feigl, A Myth of Terror, Edition Zeitgeschichte Freilassing, Salzburg, Austria p.97)


The Armenian Soviet historian A.A.Lalayan who stated that the Dashnaks displayed extreme courage to massacre Turkish women, children and ill and old people

(Contrarevolyutsionn?y ?Da?naktsutyun? ? ?mperialisti-?eskaya Voyna 1914-1918 gg.?, Revolyutsionn?y Vostok, No.2-3, p.92, 1936) and who also quoted the following report of a Dashnag officer, Aslem Varaam written in 1920, in Beyazit-Varan was an Armenian denier and he was also hired by the Turkish government .

The report of Aslem Varaam was:

"I exterminated the Turkish population in Bashar-Gechar without making any exceptions. One some times feels the bullets shouldn't be wasted. So, the most effective way against these dogs is to collect the people who have survived the clashes and dump them in deep holes and crush them under heavy rocks pressed from above, not to let them inhabit this world any longer. So I did accordingly. I collected all the women, men and children and extinguished their lives in the deep holes I dumped them into, crushing them with rocks."


by fehmicolpan March 2, 2010 10:45 AM EST
1
Whoever tells about topics which obviously abolish their imaginary past, are labelled as ?deniers?, as ?agents of Turkish government?, or ?people hired by the Turkish government? or ?disingenous scholars/authorities? Turkish nationalists?, ?Turkish racists?. And, here are the names of Armenians who comply with the these terms:

?Garo Pasdermichan (Pastirmaciyan), the Ottoman deputy of Erzurum and commander of all the Armenian officials and soldiers of the Ottoman Third Army which joined the Russian Army in 1914, was the main denier and Turkish racist. Because, he wrote in his book ?Why Armenia Should Be Free? (Boston, Dec.1918, Hairenik Publishing Company p. 16-17) that annual Congress of Armenian Party Dashnagzoutiun was held in Erzurum in August 1914, before the war broke, and Turkish emissaries offered Dashnaks an autonomous Armenia (made up of Russian Armenia and the three Turkish vilayets of Erzurum, Van and Bitlis) under the suzerainty of the Ottoman Empire?, if they joined the Turkish side and stopped supporting the Russians.

He also stated that the executive committee of the Dashnagzoutiun rejected the proposal! The Armenian members of this parley were the well-known publicist E.Aknouni, the representative from Van, A.Vramian, and the director of the Armenian schools in the district of Erzurum, Mr Rostom.


Another main denier was Boghos Noubar Pasha, the Armenian National Delegation President in The Paris Peace Conference 1919 who also stated that the Turks offered them autonomy in August 1914, much before the deportation, but they rejected this proposal and placed themselves without hesitation on the side of the Entente Powers from whom they expected liberation [Papers relating to the foreign relations of the United States The Paris Peace Conference 1919 (United States Government Printing Office, 1948, Vol IV, p 139-157)].

Armenian Boghos Noubar Pasha, who told that ?150 000 Armenian volunteers in Russian Army were the only forces against Turks? (Times of London , 1919 Jan 30 Link: http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/10/2013-150-000-armenian-volunteers-in.html) was obviously a denier and agent of Turkish government.

Hovannes Katchaznouni, the first prime-minister of the Armenian state founded in 1918 and the prime authority of the Dashnagzoutiun Party who wrote a book ?Dashnagzoutiun Has Nothing to do Anymore? was also another chief denier. Because, in his book which is banned in Armenia at present, he stated that
*it was a mistake to establish the volunteer units.
*They were unconditionally allied with Russia,
*They massacred the Moslem population,
*The Armenian terrorist acts were directed, at winning the Western public opinion.


by love2ridend March 2, 2010 8:00 AM EST
More peacefull Muslims at work.


by kakudu March 2, 2010 4:52 AM EST
http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/kitap.asp?kitap=991
this adress is Turkish Historical Archieve. visit there and learn the trues.
dont blame turkish people beecause orginal murders are armenians.
and never blame some people before you dont research the trues.


by factsveritas March 2, 2010 1:33 AM EST
I forgot to note: a Christian American lady, not of Turkish heritage, for those who might think I have played with words. Since I am back for this, I would like to leave with you a brief quotation from Christian missionary George M. Lamsa from his book _The Secret of the Near East_ (1923), from the chapter entitled "The Armenian Revolution" (note that the chapter is not entitled Armenian Genocide):

"In some towns containing ten Armenian houses and thirty Turkish houses it was reported that 40,000 people were killed, about 10,000 women were taken to the harem and thousands of children left destitute; and the city university destroyed and the bishop killed. It is a well-known fact that even in the last war the native Christians, despite the Turkish cautions, armed themselves and fought on the side of the Allies. In these conflicts, they were not idle, but they were well supplied with artillery, machine guns and inflicted heavy losses on their enemies."
It behooves us all to study well what unbiased research offers.


by factsveritas March 2, 2010 1:13 AM EST
Is there any doubt as to whether the 60 minutes program was not one-sided? How come equal time is not given to Americans of Turkish heritage? How can it be that more Armenians than existed in the Ottoman Empire can be killed, especially since the initial claim of Armenians killed was two-hundred-thousand in 1919, which was still based on war propaganda and the Armenian church? How does Mr. Balakian (a writer, and a bad one at that) represent historical research? How come people incensed about Hrant Dink's senseless murder are not similarly incensed about assassinations of over 60 Turkish diplomats and their families by Armenian terrorists? It should suffice to present here what a retired American lady had to say about this travesty of a program (not a word has been modified): "Did anyone notice that most of the speakers on that segment had names ending in --ian, that this was a one sided, Armenian presentation. There was so much blatant propaganda, one wonders how anyone could take it as absolute fact."


by Davidwhitman March 1, 2010 11:50 PM EST
For those of us who have been researching this event for decades, we know that there was an Armenian genocide and subsequent denial by the government of Turkey. It is one of the most well documented mass killing events in recorded history. It is only disputable by the ignorant and by those who know the truth but choose to deny it.


by Raf_Hank March 1, 2010 10:33 PM EST
The point is that the program didn?t just misinterpret the events; it humiliated the descendants of victims of real genocide accomplished by Armenians. The bones, author held in his hand, are(can be) bones of my grandfather?s family: his dad, his mom, his sisters, and his brothers as well as other Turks ? victims of Armenian genocide.
For killing to become genocide the killing should be done on the basis on ethnicity/religion and the number of killed people does not matter. Intention to kill matters.

1915-Russian-Turkish war: Russians were not able to defeat Turks and armed Armenians to use them as military force against Turks. Armenians started the massacre against civilian Turks. Among their victims was family of my grandfather ? farmers. My grandfather and his brother survived by chance: at the time of massacre they were in the field, saw that terror, and run away. They did not have a chance even to approach the bodies of the loved ones.After that ?successful? massacre against civilians, Armenians started attacks on Turkish military units. Turks had to fight against Russians and Armenians(2 wars). Armenians INTENTIONALLY (they planned and started that mass killing) killed civilians because they (civilians) were Turks. What did Turks do? They stopped the genocide. Were there more Armenians killed than Turks? Probably, yes (but not in the number armenians claim: every decade they add 200-300 thousands more. I believe they counted bones of my grandfather's family 9 times as the bones of Armenians.

Author talked about cleansing. There?s no country as mono-ethnical as Armenia (99% Armenians). Even during the time of Soviet Union (Communist Party tried to get ethnical diversity in all parts of USSR) Armenians managed to keep Armenian Socialistic Republic mono-ethnical. Armenians always knew how to get rid of ?unwanted? people-not Armenians.
Author made a link between Hitler and Turkey, saying that Hitler learned Turkey?s experience. True connection is Turkey?s experience in WWI and USA?s experience in WWII. It was Turkey?s experience that convinced American authorities to move Japanese to different parts of USA, including Utah, after Japan attacked American Harbor. And, that was the right thing to do ? otherwise after a while USA would be blamed for genocide.

I am not a historian. This is my side of the story, though. And I am a descendant of those killed by Armenians. Have you ever wondered why Armenian government refuses to open archives to independent historians and experts to study the documents and to make conclusion about those events. Turkish government keeps proposing it and Armenian government keeps refusing. Have you ever wondered why? They are afraid that the truth will be revealed and will become available to all people including ?60 minutes? program journalists.

Have you heard about the recent Armenian genocide in Hodjaly where almost 700 innocent people ?women and children, were tortured and killed only because they were Azeries; and more than thousand deported. Do you want to talk about people killed by Armenians on the basis of ethnicity? Or, are you interested only in Armenian side of the story? The chief of the Russian military unit that ?helped? to accomplish this genocide in Hodjali got from Armenians 1.5 million dollars. A lot of money


by anamaden March 1, 2010 10:30 PM EST
Thank you CBS!
It is extremely disturbing that a government refuses to admit the truth and keeps lying through decades. My grandfathers were murdered during the Genocide. Their bones are scattered somewhere in modern Turkey and I will never have closure.

They disappeared being young and leaving no trace and no chance to protect their families from all the suffering left behind. How can I forget?


by squeakof2006 March 1, 2010 10:26 PM EST
Another example of the Turks lying to push the Muslim agenda. Muslims have been killing all who disagree with them from the start. Christians in the area were a minority and were killed intentionally. Today, the fanatics use political pressure to keep an investigation from being launched. IF there truly was no genocide, then why the problem with an investigation? If there is nothing to hide, then the Turks should welcome the investigation that would clear their ancestors.


by Raf_Hank March 1, 2010 10:20 PM EST
The point is that the program didn?t just misinterpret the events; it humiliated the descendants of victims of real genocide accomplished by Armenians. The bones, author held in his hand, are (can be) bones of my grandfather?s family: his dad, his mom, his sisters, and his brothers as well as other Turks ? victims of Armenian genocide.
For killing to become genocide the killing should be done on the basis on ethnicity/religion and the number of killed people does not matter. Intention and reason to kill matters.

1915-Russian-Turkish war: Russians were not able to defeat Turks and armed Armenians to use them as military force against Turks. Armenians started the massacre against civilian Turks. Among their victims was the family of my grandfather ? farmers. My grandfather and his brother survived by chance: at the time of the massacre they were in the field, saw that terror, and run away. They did not have a chance even to approach the bodies of the loved ones. After that "successful" massacre of civilians, Armenians started attacks on Turkish military units. Turks had to fight against Russians and Armenians(2 wars). Armenians INTENTIONALLY (they planned and started that mass killing) killed civilians because they (civilians) were Turks. What did Turks do? They stopped the genocide. Were there more Armenians killed than Turks? Probably, yes (but not in the number armenians claim: every decade they add 200-300 thousands more. I believe they counted bones of my grandfather family 9 times as the bones of Armenians.

Author talked about cleansing. There?s no country as mono-ethnical as Armenia (99% Armenians). Even during the time of Soviet Union (Communist Party tried to get ethnical diversity in all parts of USSR) Armenians managed to keep Armenian Socialistic Republic mono-ethnical. Armenians always knew how to get rid of ?unwanted? people-not Armenians.
Author made a link between Hitler and Turkey, saying that Hitler learned Turkey?s experience. True connection is Turkey?s experience in WWI and USA?s experience in WWII. It was Turkey?s experience that convinced American authorities to move Japanese to different parts of USA, including Utah, after Japan attacked American Harbor. And, that was the right thing to do ? otherwise, after a while, USA would be blamed for genocide.

I am not a historian. This is my side of the story, though. And I am a descendant of those killed by Armenians. Have you ever wondered why Armenian government refuses to open archives to independent historians and experts to study the documents and to make conclusion about those events. Turkish government keeps proposing it and Armenian government keeps refusing. Have you ever wondered why? They are afraid that the truth will be revealed and will become available to all people including ?60 minutes? program journalists.

Have you heard about the recent Armenian genocide in Hodjaly where almost 700 innocent people ?women and children, were tortured and killed only because they were Azeries. Do you want to talk about people killed by Armenians on the basis of ethnicity? Or, are you interested only in Armenian side of the story? The chief of the Russian military unit that ?helped? to accomplish this genocide in Hodjali got from Armenians 1.5 million dollars. A lot of money.


by The_Truth1 March 1, 2010 8:44 PM EST
InformedAmerican you should change your name to UneducatedAmerican.


by peretzi March 1, 2010 7:33 PM EST
Young Turks are grasping at straws and lies. It is so very ugly-it is sIo very sad. I saw the ravaged but still beautiful face of my "Auntie"-Isaw the crippled foot-I saw the crooked mouth. She was a Dersor survivor who told of the thousands who marched, the ruthless soldiers and the deprivation of even water. She,herself, witnessed mothers praying and placing their children in rivers as acts of mercy. The denials sicken me but not the people who deny. Armenian Americans raise their children to abhor ignorance NOT FACTS!


by peretzi March 1, 2010 7:07 PM EST
I applaud CBS for revealing the true facts about the Turkish genocide of the Armenians in 1915 and thereafter. Every respectable, reliable and credible source of information has confirmed the fact that the Turkish government engaged in a systematic program of genocide to eliminate the Armenian population of Turkey. My parents who were survivors,wept for the million plus whose death haunted them. They blessed America daily. Their story is filled with the tragedy, heroism, love and sacrifice which all of the survivors share. Turkey should acknowledge the mistakes of the past and get on with the future as Germany has. Noone blames the current government of Turkey, except for their mistaken notion that denial can hide the truth. Turkey-teach your children that truth can liberate! I am 71 and my sister is 81- I fear that I will die without having told all of the events which I learned about from those wonderful people who had suffered so profoundly.


by InformedAmerican March 1, 2010 5:52 PM EST
Part 5

Simon also failed to remind his unsuspecting audiences that Armenians resorted to a massive revolt in April 1915, killed more than 40,000 Muslims in cold blood, wrestled the city out of the Ottoman government forces , and turned it over to the invading enemy armies (Russians.) That was the equivalent of 9/11 for the Ottoman Empire. Why is it acceptable for the U.S. to cross the oceans to start a global war on terrorists in Afghanistan in 21st Century but not acceptable for the Ottoman Empire to move its terrorists from one corner of its land to another in the 20th Century?

And the 24 April 1915, billed by the Armenian falsifiers as the start of a genocide is actually the equivalent of Guantanamo for the Ottoman Empire when known Armenian terrorists and their suspected accomplices were arrested and incarcerated for questioning. If it is good for the goose now, it should be good for the gander then. Please, no more double standards.

Loaded terms like ?death march?, ?concentration camps? and claims like the Nazis learned from Turks are more recent inventions and after thoughts by the Armenian lobby, not unlike the genocide scholars, genocide curriculums, genocide lectures at Holocaust museums and Jewish synagogues. All new, all cunning steps in a master propaganda scheme, all designed to establish ?credibility by association?, all funded by the Armenian lobby.

Morgenthau, the career diplomat , historian, writer, quoted in the documentary, was actually none of those. He was a real estate agent and a developer from upstate new York who raised the most funds for Wilson in 1912 presidential campaign and was rewarded for his services by an ambassadorial post. He was a rabid anti-Turks and a Muslim hater. His book, published in 1918, was actually ghost ?written by a Pulitzer Prize winner for him. Morgentahu never left Istanbul (except once for Jerusalem) but never set foot in Anatolia from where he reported. He could speak none of the languages of the era and area (Turkish, Persian, Arabic, Ottoman) so he relied on the translations and reports of his two male Armenian secretaries, Schmavonian and Andonian, hardly impartial sources of information. Morgenthau simply relayed the embellished and exaggerated reports filed by Armenian revolutionaries, American missionaries and other biased parties who could not care less about Muslims? suffering, either directly or through American consuls in the area. As any fair-minded, honest, truth-seeker can easily see, the deck was shuffled with a pro-Armenians and anti-Turkish bias from the start.

Turkish-Armenian journalist Hrant Dink?s assassination of 2007 was mentioned, but no word about the thousands of Turks who took to the streets condemning it. No mention, either, of the murder of Turkish Consul General Kemal Arikan in 1982 in Los Angeles or the fact that Armenians took to the streets to ?celebrate it?! This is important, because both men were the same age when assassinated under similar circumstances by brain-washed youths, both married, and both had kids, both victimized by a similar hate crime. Yet, the Armenian victim (Dink) is glorified while Turkish victim is forgotten, dismissed, or ignored. Also ignored are more than 70 victims of Armenian terrorism and hate crimes since 1973. What is even more incredible that four of those victims were murdered in cold blood on American soil! Still, not a word from CBS on Turkish victims. Perhaps CBS reporter thinks Turks are expendable sub humans who deserve deaths, being of the wrong ethnicity and religion.


by InformedAmerican March 1, 2010 5:51 PM EST
Part 4

Many other such fabrications, meticulously documented in recent a book by Ataov, are the reasons why we would be careful, if we were CBS reporters, not to take any Armenian claims, let alone who lies in the alleged mass grave, at face value.

Armenians were never called infidels by the Ottomans as claimed in the film. On the contrary, it is a matter of historical record that the Ottomans had established one of the most tolerant administrations in history, with its millet system where the faith-based groups were organized in self-ruling, "autonomous ?millets?.

When the Jews of Iberia were persecuted during the 1492 Spanish inquisitions and were told to convert to Catholicism, or leave, or get killed, no country in Europe would offer sanctuary to Jews for fear of retaliation by Catholic Rome. No country, except the Ottoman Empire, that is. Since than many other persecuted peoples have freely come to the Ottoman lands and prospered there in the centuries since. Turkey continued this fine tradition when German Jews in 1930, secular Iranians in 1980s, Iraqi Kurds in 1990s, and many others have also been saved. Balakian?s deliberate misrepresentation speaks volumes about his character. Like the skulls photo and the Hitler quote, this claim is fake, too.

Then there the forced comparison between the court-proven (Nuremberg, 1945) uniquely Jewish tragedy of Holocaust versus the long discredited, political, and unsubstantiated claim of genocide. Deportation is a misnomer, because the treasonous elements were moved from one part of the country to another temporarily, until the end of the war, hence the term TERESET, temporary resettlement. Therefore, mentioning the factual Jewish Holocaust in the same breath with the bogus Armenian genocide is an insult to the silent memory of six million Jews who were killed just for being Jews. Jews did not take up arms against their own government. They did not demand German territories to establish a Jewish state on them. They did not terrorize the German countryside. They did not kill their German neighbors to the tune of 524,000 German victims. They did not join the invading enemy armies during WWII. Armenian, on the other hand, committed all of those heinous crimes during WWI and got away with them. Judging by CBS?s ethocidal coverage, the Armenians are still getting away with murder.


by InformedAmerican March 1, 2010 5:49 PM EST
Part 3

A single site was shown along the Euphrates, claiming that the bones were everywhere, which is extremely questionable after 95 years. The Armenian propagandists featured in the documentary certainly are not known to be below placing those bones there just before the ?show? for maximum impact on the story, in the finest tradition of Andonian, the master fabricator of fake Talaat telegrams fame.

The Turkish Ambassador Nabi Sensoy was not given an opportunity to tell the truth, as he appeared for less than a minute, and erroneously referred to the re-settlement as deportations.

Many American researchers and scholars, all experts in the history of the Ottoman Empire, dispute Armenian allegations, leading to the conclusion that although Armenian civilian losses during World War I were tragic, the events of 1915 were not tantamount to genocide. Armenians did not suffer alone, millions of Turks, Azeris, Kurds, Jews, Circassians, Persians also lost their lives during the same period from similar causes, including massacres by Armenian rebel bands. Take a look at the photos of Armenian revolutionaries, armed-to-the-teeth, here: www.ethocide.com . Do they look like the ?poor, starving, unarmed, helpless Armenians? myth promoted deceptively and incessantly?

The mound said to contain Armenian bones sounds very much like that Vereshagin painting of skulls of 1871, hanging in a museum in Moscow, with which the Armenians duped the world into thinking that those were the skulls of Armenians killed by Turks. When the Armenian lies were finally exposed by Prof. Turkkaya Ataov in 1983, no apology was issued by the Armenian lobbies. Same thing with alleged Hitler quote: it is a hoax. Even the most cursory search in the internet will readily reveal many sources showing Princeton historian Heath Lowry?s extensive work exposing the Armenian falsifications.

That the frequently used infamous Hitler quote is a hoax is beyond suspicion. It suffices to read a few lines from the article ?Historian of Armenian Descent Says Frequently Used Hitler Quote Is Nothing But a Forgery?, that appeared in The Armenian Reporter Vol. XVII, NO. 40, on August 2, 1984, where an Armenian historian advises his fellow Armenians not to use this fake quote again. ??Dr. Robert John, a historian of Armenian heritage from New York City stated, according the news article, that a commonly used quotation of an alleged statement by Adolf Hitler about the Armenian massacres was a forgery and should, therefore, not be used?? The complete article available at : http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:6ztdC2UPN9sJ:www.tallarmeniantale.com/hitler-quote.htm+historian+Armenian+descent+Hitler&hl=en&ie=UTF-8


by InformedAmerican March 1, 2010 5:48 PM EST
Part 2

Even the U.S. Congress? own records from those times and dates clearly corroborate the Turkish position on the conflict:

a- ?American Military Mission to Armenia? (General Harbord) Report 1920 and the Annex Report Nat. Archives 184.021/175 ?which does not mention any ?race extermination? but, on the contrary, refers to ??refinements of cruelty by Armenians to Muslims??

b- Joint U.S. CONGRESS RESOLUTION NO. 192, APRIL 22, 1922 relative to the activities of Near East Relief ending 31 December 1921 which has unanimously resolved that a total of 1,414,000 Armenians were alive (which makes killing of 1.5 million Armenians an impossibility, since the total Armenian population was around 1.5 million at the time.)

c- George Montgomery, a member of the U.S. delegation at the Paris Conference, had presented a detailed tabulation in 1919, showing a total of 1,104,000 Armenians alive, apart from those who had already immigrated to other countries.

d- 29 March 1919 report of the Paris Conference subcommittee on atrocities, chaired by the U.S. secretary of State Lansing, lists Armenian losses as ??more than 200,000?? Even this number is exaggerated as they got their information from the Armenian church, not exactly an impartial source. After meticulous research through the archives, the Turkish Historical Society documented the deaths of 54,000 Armenians using Ottoman police reports filed on site, of which number only about 8,400 are reported as victims of massacres. The paragraphs a, b, and c jointly point to the THS number being closer to reality.

Who, then may have jacked this number of Armenian casualties from the original 54,000 first to 200,000 in 29 March 1919 (Paris Peace Conference;) 600,000 in May 1919 (in a poster created by Armenians soliciting money in U.S. churches;) to the current 1.5 million? Take a guess!

Many of the re-located Armenians did arrive in Syria and all of them were given homes, land and money. Armenians were given an option to return to Turkey in 1916 and 1917, and many actually did, in fact, some even joined the French forces and fought against the Ottoman Empire. The descendants of the re-located Armenians who chose to live in Syria and Lebanon make up a large portion of the Diaspora Armenians today. These facts, unfortunately, were not mentioned in the presentation.


by InformedAmerican March 1, 2010 5:47 PM EST
CBS 60 MINUTES TAKES SIDE IN ?BATTLE OVER HISTORY?

It is with utmost disappointment and grave sadness that Americans of Turkish heritage coast-to-coast watched CBS?s 60 Minutes program on 28 February 2010 blatantly take side on the documentary ?Battle Over History?. Instead of being impartial, objective, and balanced reporters, as expected from an international news media organization, CBS chose to act like an arrogant journalist with a cause, promoting a long discredited political claim of a spurious genocide as settled history.

Selection of obviously biased contents, clearly provocative symbols, incredibly misrepresented location, dishonest and racist Armenian speakers, and overtly partisan narratives pointed to a propaganda campaign rather than an honest attempt to educate public about a historical controversy.

The documentary start with a falsehood purporting ??overwhelming majority of historians recognize genocide?? whereas the opposite is true. Here is a partial list of 69 world renown historians who rejected publicly on 19 May 1985, in New York Times & Washington Post, the Armenian characterization of WWI events as genocide, instead called it ??inter communal warfare fought by Christian and Muslim irregulars??: Prof. Bernard Lewis of Princeton, Prof. Stanford Shaw of UCLA, Prof. Justin McCarthy of Louisville, and many others.

In fact, so many of the true scholars were refuting the Armenian claims that the Armenian lobby was forced to create new avenues to buy credibility: genocide scholars. These are mostly retired professionals, psychiatrists, lecturers on US Government, English teachers, and others, all posing as authorities in history but most are not even historians, and all organized through the Armenian lobby, financed in part by the Cafesjian Foundation and organized by the notoriously anti-Turkish Zoryan Institute.

It was remarkable that an English professor, Balakian, and not a historian was selected as the spokesperson for Armenians in a complex event in history, along with a dentist, a priest, and others. The token inclusion of the harshly edited words of the frequently interrupted Turkish ambassador did little to counter the massive infusion of disinformation and deception by the Armenian propagandists featured prominently throughout the documentary.

Balakian asserted ??450,000 Armenians died in Dar El Zor?? which was another falsehood. Even American consul wrote that 500,000 Armenians survived the move within the context of the temporary resettlement (TERESET) order of 1915. TERESET was a wartime homeland security measure taken to defend the country in the face of brutal foreign invasions (i.e. military campaigns by the ANZAC and the French in the Dardanelles, Russians in the Ottoman-Russian border, and British in Sinai, among others) and equally atrocious domestic revolts and fifth columns (i.e. Van Revolt by Armenians in April 1915).


by Genocidesurvivor March 1, 2010 5:10 PM EST
Too bad for u you have Armenian blood running through your veins since it seems it has meant nothing for you. And an infinity of too bads for us that you have Armenian blood running through your veins.

FYI during illnesses and starvation (as you put it) people dont get slaughtered nor massacred right? nor do they burn, or get raped, or or or should I go on my friend... Besides why would Turkey admit it,I mean I am a logical human being if I commit a crime I definetly would not leave any proof or archives lying around in scrolls, documents etc... right? unless I'm stupid so be happy that at least the Turks were not stupid and they got rid of all the archives hence the Armenian Historians cannot do work with Turks...unless you want to say that the Ambassadors of other countries had false proofs but let's go with your story you know what was the big mistacke Turks did? they left the bones lying around hundreds of them everywhere, second mistacke they left eye witnesses... third and the most horrific mistacke they did was they allowed our grandparents as children to survive and here I am again in your face today having what you call a humane uprising and I am also in the face of Talaat Pasha laughing HAHAHA seeeeeeee cause I'm still here so his plan failed to exterminate the Armenian cause there are still true Muslims in the world that saved Armenians...

I promise you the day will come when Talaat and I will meet but it will be too late for him... cause I wont be the one to judge, Allah still rules the Heavens maybe the Shaytan in the prince of this world me just a human on a humane cause reporting historical facts here as you would put it about an entire Millet that was scattered suddenly all over the world with horrific tales to tell....but did not perish... say how about you deny what you have done to the Greeks as well and the lebanese? Cypriotes in the 70's? Kurds? should I go on about your beautiful humane history I mean your history is full of humane acts starting from Genghis Khan we know how humane he was right?!!!!!!!!!
let me tell you something we are all going to die one day right? and you will face Allah whether you like it or not let's see what excuse you and your Talaat will have to give in front of the Almighty Rahman and Rahim. And if God is ok with what happened then Im ok with it too after all what am I but a genocide survivor...


by Robert5604 March 1, 2010 4:37 PM EST
I tought that 60 minutes was an investigative kind of program...
The best information you could manage to find on the subject is coming from an English professor, a Dentist and probably Wikipedia !!!
And yes, an "overwhelming number of historians" !?!?!
Can anyone tell me how many of those historians did any research in any national archives ???

The bones part was interesting, The english Professor has suddenly become an archeologist. Just by looking at a bone fragment he could tell right away that they Armenian fingers !

I mean, come on, NO human tibia, NO human skull, NO human vertebrea...
But LOTS of... chicken bones !

And after 95 years, those bones are still on the surface of the ground ?

Indeed, evidence comes in many forms.

Then it was time to plug the "Armenian Golgotha".

Then Mr. Balakian goes on saying: "...a well orchestrated project of government planned arrests and deportations."

Well I'm sorry Mr. Balakian but the "relocation process" was anything BUT a well orchestrated plan.
It was in fact quite a badly organized plan and that's why so many perished in the process.

Now we come to the Henry Morgenthau precious document about "race extermination".
I bet none of the researchers at CBS knows that Mr. Morgenthau co-signed the Near-East relief report of december 1921 that stipulates that over 1.4 million Armenians were still alive in the Ottoman Empire !!!
According to various sources, around 1.8 million Armenians were living in the Empire before the war,
According to the American N-E relief report of 1921, 1.4 million were still alive after the war,
Do the maths and tell me how can anyone end up with the 1.5 million figure.
And there are no figures about those who fleed to Russia, France, USA, etc.

And then Mr. Balakian comes up with that famous Hitler "Inspirational quote"...
Now, check this out:
The quote had been declared a FORGERY since 1984, that was 26 years ago.

Dr. Robert John, a historian and political analyst of Armenian descent from New York City, declared that a commonly used quotation of an alleged statement by Adolf Hitler concerning the Armenian massacres was a forgery and should not be used.

During the Nuremberg trial, the German defense lawyers were able to introduce the most complete account of the August 22 1939 address, taken down by German Admiral Hermann Boehm, which runs to 12 pages in translation. There is NO mention of the Armenians or the rest of the ?quotation.?

Kevrok Bardakciyan in a June 11, 2005 interview admits clearly that the statement of Hitler saying "who remembers the murdered Armenians?" could not be found out despite all the searches in the archives. "? I have conducted researches for eighteen months in order to reach an evidence of this statement. I could not find out valid evidence proving that Hitler said such a statement..."

Mr Carlos Porter, who found these documents made the following important warning:
Note: This translation attempts to retain the style and punctuation of the original, which is not correct in German: full space before colons and commas, no full space before following word. The document contains not one single sharp S (? ) a standard letter in the German alphabet. C.Porter.

If I have only one suggestion to male to CBS researchers:
Spend more time in the USA's Government archives, Niles and Sutherland report, Admiral Bristol's report, Near-East Relief reports come to mind.
I am sure that your findings are going to be more accurate than Wikipedia !


by araratlfeza March 1, 2010 3:09 PM EST
This was 100 years ago...It was war time- WWI ,it was NEVER an intended genocide,it was deportation> FYI:PLEASE CHECK THE MEANING OF GENOCIDE!
People died in both sides... in order to learn the truth please enlighten yourselves & read this book:DEATH AND EXILE by JUSTIN MCCARTHNY--


by edgy44 March 1, 2010 2:53 PM EST
I think he, like many, realize that Turkey is not a friend to the world, and has dirt in their pockets, and their gardens are filled with Christian bones.


by Rodeo_Joe March 1, 2010 2:50 PM EST
An eye for an eye, and the whole world will end up blind - to paraphrase Gandhi.
Honesty is the best policy.


by Kevork424 March 1, 2010 2:24 PM EST
This report raises some good points and important facts on the Armenian Genocide, but is rife with big negatives, deliberate misrepresentations and outright lies:

1. Its frequent use of the terms "battle...the massacres...the events" to describe an incontestable fact is unacceptable and constitutes an unconscionable act of genocide denial -- the ultimate form of hate speech!

Allowing Amb. Sensoy the opportunity to deny the Armenian Genocide on national television is as criminal and cruel an act as airing any statements by a neo-Nazi leader denying the Jewish Holocaust!

2. It deliberately fails to identify the Armenian homeland of more than four millennia.

There is no reference to "Anatolia...eastern (Ottoman) Turkey...Western Armenia and Cilicia..."

CBS: "But our story begins where the lives of so many Armenians ended, far from Istanbul, in the desert...The survivors ended up in concentration camps hundreds of miles from Istanbul, out of sight."

Istanbul (then Constantinople) was never the Armenian homeland or part of the Armenian homeland. During the Armenian Genocide, Armenians (95%+) were cleansed and driven primarily from Western Armenia and Cilicia!

CBS deliberately does not want the nation to identify and respect the specific location and boundaries of the occupied Armenian homeland, the return of which is the crux of the Armenian Question and the main factor that would end the Armenian Genocide!

3. CBS: "Which is probably why no U.S. president has uttered the word genocide."

This is a blatant lie, as we know that Reagan used the "G" word during his presidency!

4. It highlights the power imbalance between Armenia and Turkey and stresses Turkey's "importance" to the United States and so-called "regional superpower" status.

CBS: "The use of the word genocide is regarded as an insult to the Turkish nation; it is a jailable offense..."

Why didn't CBS emphasize that the nonuse "of the word genocide is regarded as an insult to the [Armenian] nation"?!

5. With the one-sided Armenia-Turkey protocols practically dead, the timing of this report is driven by a desire to "kill the bill" using the same immoral arguments and tactics that somehow "worked" in 2007.

Most congressional supporters of the Armenian Genocide resolution are not that foolish and will not buy into these denialist measures.

When the House passed similar legislation in the late 1970s and early 1980s, Turkey didn't and couldn't retaliate! All it did was cry and verbally abuse the United States, and days later, everything was back to normal.

This righteous bill will again pass in the Foreign Relations Committee and advance to the House floor for a full and successful vote!


by brianbwb2011 March 1, 2010 1:18 PM EST
No joke, especially since we are in the midst of a campaign of genocide in two countries today.

by brianbwb2011 March 1, 2010 1:17 PM EST
I challenge you to show where the Quran teaches such. You are like the standard American Christian, quoting from a book you have never read.

For the record, I am atheist, but have thoroughly read the Torah, the Bible, and Al Quran.


by thedgs March 1, 2010 1:06 PM EST
The Armenian Genocide certainly did happen. I know because I lost my great grandparents and great uncles and aunts. Do we have proof of this? Sure we do. Was there violence and murder committed by Armenians against Turks - of course - it was a state of war. However, were whole villages of Turks rounded up by Armenians, all of their belongings and homes taken away, and "deported" out to the Syrian desert, never to be seen or heard from again? No.

Turkey erased the majority of historical records on the Genocide. Why? Well, to cover up atrocities. What country would want to be recognized for their inhumanity? So what's the problem with the present-day Turks recognizing the Armenian Genocide? They have been taught in schools and by their ancestors to deny the Genocide. Besides, why should they have to be made monsters due to the sins of their great grandfathers? They just need to be convinced that living with the truth is much better than living a lie.

It is all a matter of respect for all of those that lost their lives. Racial healing would have a great start if Turkey recognizes the Armenian Genocide. Recognizing the Armenian Genocide will help the world recognize the cruelty of man, and hopefully prevent tragedies like this from being perpetrated in the future.


by burakayarci March 1, 2010 12:52 PM EST
Armenian gangs did thier mass murder in Bitlis, Turkey. 500.000 Turks were murdered by uprising armenian gangs, I hope bob will report on this as well...


by burakayarci March 1, 2010 12:49 PM EST
I am a Turk living in istanbul, I had armenians in my family... my grandad was an ottoman officer major (turk), in the region between 1912-1916... He always used to say armenians were provoced by russians and french ( during the 1st w.war, russia, france, England were allies fighting against Ottoman( turk) and Germans) This always made sense to me that france and russia provoced the ottoman "gayrim?slim" ( ottoman citizens who are not muslim) in order to make a way for an uprising in the ottoman soil. than grandad used to say we had orders to transfer these armenian uprisers out of the ottoman soil... During these transfers illnesses and starvation had happened and people died, why transfer? We are talking about an era where human rights were a luxary in the wartime.. wrongs have been made but genocide or mass murder NEVER took place... That is why today armenian historians can not and do not work together with their Turkish collegues... I have armenian blood but I am human enough to judge the right and wrong... The armenian gangs ( uprisers) caused at least 500.000 Turks murder in bitlis, Turkey, isnt this a genocide?? Noone talks about this!!


by Genocidesurvivor March 1, 2010 5:10 PM EST
Too bad for u you have Armenian blood running through your veins since it seems it has meant nothing for you. And an infinity of too bads for us that you have Armenian blood running through your veins.
FYI during illnesses and starvation (as you put it) people dont get slaughtered nor massacred right? nor do they burn, or get raped, or or or should I go on my friend... Besides why would Turkey admit it,I mean I am a logical human being if I commit a crime I definetly would not leave any proof or archives lying around in scrolls, documents etc... right? unless I'm stupid so be happy that at least the Turks were not stupid and they got rid of all the archives hence the Armenian Historians cannot do work with Turks...unless you want to say that the Ambassadors of other countries had false proofs but let's go with your story you know what was the big mistacke Turks did? they left the bones lying around hundreds of them everywhere, second mistacke they left eye witnesses... third and the most horrific mistacke they did was they allowed our grandparents as children to survive and here I am again in your face today having what you call a humane uprising and I am also in the face of Talaat Pasha laughing HAHAHA seeeeeeee cause I'm still here so his plan failed to exterminate the Armenian cause there are still true Muslims in the world that saved Armenians...

I promise you the day will come when Talaat and I will meet but it will be too late for him... cause I wont be the one to judge, Allah still rules the Heavens maybe the Shaytan in the prince of this world me just a human on a humane cause reporting historical facts here as you would put it about an entire Millet that was scattered suddenly all over the world with horrific tales to tell....but did not perish... say how about you deny what you have done to the Greeks as well and the lebanese? Cypriotes in the 70's? Kurds? should I go on about your beautiful humane history I mean your history is full of humane acts starting from Genghis Khan we know how humane he was right?!!!!!!!!!
let me tell you something we are all going to die one day right? and you will face Allah whether you like it or not let's see what excuse you and your Talaat will have to give in front of the Almighty Rahman and Rahim. And if God is ok with what happened then Im ok with it too after all what am I but a genocide survivor...

by maistir March 1, 2010 12:28 PM EST
The Turkish Government continued to allow pogroms against the remaining Greek and Armenian communities and businesses well into the 1950's. All one has to do is read the Turkish writer Orhan Pamuk's book(s) about his life in Istanbul and look at the photos of looted properties (rather like *Kristallnacht* wasn't it?). Until the Turkish Republic admits its culpability for ethnic cleansing (Turkification) from 1915 on it should never be admitted into the EU. Its suppression of the Kurdish language, books and schools is still another blot on its record.


by zelster March 1, 2010 10:12 AM EST
On behalf of all the Armenian Genocide VICTIMS as well as the SURVIVORS I would like to thank CBS NEWS for taking a stand by valuing "Humanity".
My maternal and paternal grandparents were the sole survivors of their families.They witnessed the death of their parents, relatives and siblings, to mention the least. They lost everything; their parents, homes,and their siblings.They were too young to remember their family names...Suddenly they were homeless and wondering the streets among corpse...my grandfather, who was seven at the time, he was rescued by a "TURKISH GOOD SAMARITAN" and became to be his slave. After enduring years of slavery, my grandfather was able to escape and begin to rebuild his life. He was a true "Armenian". His actions were motivated by his determination to uphold the values of humanity and dignity instilled by his family. We are living PROOF that the "ARMENIAN GENOCIDE of 1915 OCCURRED". Therefore,bodies of governments and their people who still DENY the "GENOCIDE" are guided by false and inhumane values and principles, which are the blue prints of "Inhumanity". Thank you again to CBS NEWS for RECOGNIZING the Genocide and upholding the individual rights of all Armenians who perished. "Denial is an easy alternative, however the denial of a real occurrences such as the Atrocities of 1915 is difficult".


by Marialouisa March 1, 2010 9:13 AM EST
Thank you for doing this story. This genocide inspired Hitler in his own. And the Koran teaches that Jews and Christians should be killed. So we must not forget.


by brianbwb2011 March 1, 2010 1:17 PM EST
I challenge you to show where the Quran teaches such. You are like the standard American Christian, quoting from a book you have never read.

For the record, I am atheist, but have thoroughly read the Torah, the Bible, and Al Quran.

by kplazlee March 3, 2010 3:18 PM EST
60 Minutes should take special notes of comments like this by the "genocide pushers".

Marialouisa, there is no such thing in the Koran. In fact, the Koran teaches that all who believe in one God are "people of the book" and that their religions and religious books are to be treated with great respect.

An entire chapter of the Koran is dedicated to Mary, mother of Jesus Christ. While the Koran does not consider Christ the son of God, it labels Christ and Abraham prophets of God.

Indeed, the Ottomans rescued Jews from the Catholic Church run Spanish inquisition in 1492. Their descendants still live and worship in synagogues all over the modern Republic of Turkey.

Your comment is either made of ignorance or intended to incite the hatred of people based solely on their religion--something Hitler promoted.

by Gititdun March 1, 2010 9:03 AM EST
nice of 60 Minutes to be SO adamant about genocide 100 years ago somewhere else and not consider America was built upon the worse genocide in the worlds history with what 30 MILLION native Americans slaughtered for their lands and with slave labor, It still amazes me how quick America is to condemn others while ignoring their own sins.


by brianbwb2011 March 1, 2010 1:18 PM EST
No joke, especially since we are in the midst of a campaign of genocide in two countries today.

by logicalbatu March 1, 2010 6:39 AM EST
there is no genocide and a certain question has to be answered by armenians. why do not they open their historical records? turkish government invites all historicians to research in turkish records.
we expect to see the same treatment from armenian government. they can not do this because this a lie.
REMEMBER THE ARMENIAN L?ES!
REMEMBER THE TURKISH AMBASSADORS WHO WERE KILLED BY ARMENIAN TERRORISTS!


by korhanerel March 1, 2010 5:56 AM EST
My mother's great grandfather hosted a large group of Armenian women and children for as much as he could on his farm in Malatya. When the Armenians had to leave eventually, one woman with a small baby 'took' some of my mother's grandmother's gold with her. Her reaction to this was 'She had a baby. We understand and see the gold as a present for her.'


by Kevork424 March 1, 2010 2:24 PM EST This report raises some good points and important facts on the Armenian Genocide, but is rife with big negatives, deliberate misrepresentations and outright lies:

1. Its frequent use of the terms "battle...the massacres...the events" to describe an incontestable fact is unacceptable and constitutes an unconscionable act of genocide denial -- the ultimate form of hate speech!

Allowing Amb. Sensoy the opportunity to deny the Armenian Genocide on national television is as criminal and cruel an act as airing any statements by a neo-Nazi leader denying the Jewish Holocaust!

2. It deliberately fails to identify the Armenian homeland of more than four millennia.

There is no reference to "Anatolia...eastern (Ottoman) Turkey...Western Armenia and Cilicia..."

CBS: "But our story begins where the lives of so many Armenians ended, far from Istanbul, in the desert...The survivors ended up in concentration camps hundreds of miles from Istanbul, out of sight."

Istanbul (then Constantinople) was never the Armenian homeland or part of the Armenian homeland. During the Armenian Genocide, Armenians (95%+) were cleansed and driven primarily from Western Armenia and Cilicia!

CBS deliberately does not want the nation to identify and respect the specific location and boundaries of the occupied Armenian homeland, the return of which is the crux of the Armenian Question and the main factor that would end the Armenian Genocide!

3. CBS: "Which is probably why no U.S. president has uttered the word genocide."

This is a blatant lie, as we know that Reagan used the "G" word during his presidency!

4. It highlights the power imbalance between Armenia and Turkey and stresses Turkey's "importance" to the United States and so-called "regional superpower" status.

CBS: "The use of the word genocide is regarded as an insult to the Turkish nation; it is a jailable offense..."

Why didn't CBS emphasize that the nonuse "of the word genocide is regarded as an insult to the [Armenian] nation"?!

5. With the one-sided Armenia-Turkey protocols practically dead, the timing of this report is driven by a desire to "kill the bill" using the same immoral arguments and tactics that somehow "worked" in 2007.

Most congressional supporters of the Armenian Genocide resolution are not that foolish and will not buy into these denialist measures.

When the House passed similar legislation in the late 1970s and early 1980s, Turkey didn't and couldn't retaliate! All it did was cry and verbally abuse the United States, and days later, everything was back to normal.

This righteous bill will again pass in the Foreign Relations Committee and advance to the House floor for a full and successful vote!


by brianbwb2011 March 1, 2010 1:18 PM EST No joke, especially since we are in the midst of a campaign of genocide in two countries today.


by brianbwb2011 March 1, 2010 1:17 PM EST I challenge you to show where the Quran teaches such. You are like the standard American Christian, quoting from a book you have never read.

For the record, I am atheist, but have thoroughly read the Torah, the Bible, and Al Quran.


by thedgs March 1, 2010 1:06 PM EST The Armenian Genocide certainly did happen. I know because I lost my great grandparents and great uncles and aunts. Do we have proof of this? Sure we do. Was there violence and murder committed by Armenians against Turks - of course - it was a state of war. However, were whole villages of Turks rounded up by Armenians, all of their belongings and homes taken away, and "deported" out to the Syrian desert, never to be seen or heard from again? No.

Turkey erased the majority of historical records on the Genocide. Why? Well, to cover up atrocities. What country would want to be recognized for their inhumanity? So what's the problem with the present-day Turks recognizing the Armenian Genocide? They have been taught in schools and by their ancestors to deny the Genocide. Besides, why should they have to be made monsters due to the sins of their great grandfathers? They just need to be convinced that living with the truth is much better than living a lie.

It is all a matter of respect for all of those that lost their lives. Racial healing would have a great start if Turkey recognizes the Armenian Genocide. Recognizing the Armenian Genocide will help the world recognize the cruelty of man, and hopefully prevent tragedies like this from being perpetrated in the future.


by burakayarci March 1, 2010 12:52 PM EST Armenian gangs did thier mass murder in Bitlis, Turkey. 500.000 Turks were murdered by uprising armenian gangs, I hope bob will report on this as well...


by burakayarci March 1, 2010 12:49 PM EST I am a Turk living in istanbul, I had armenians in my family... my grandad was an ottoman officer major (turk), in the region between 1912-1916... He always used to say armenians were provoced by russians and french ( during the 1st w.war, russia, france, England were allies fighting against Ottoman( turk) and Germans) This always made sense to me that france and russia provoced the ottoman "gayrim?slim" ( ottoman citizens who are not muslim) in order to make a way for an uprising in the ottoman soil. than grandad used to say we had orders to transfer these armenian uprisers out of the ottoman soil... During these transfers illnesses and starvation had happened and people died, why transfer? We are talking about an era where human rights were a luxary in the wartime.. wrongs have been made but genocide or mass murder NEVER took place... That is why today armenian historians can not and do not work together with their Turkish collegues... I have armenian blood but I am human enough to judge the right and wrong... The armenian gangs ( uprisers) caused at least 500.000 Turks murder in bitlis, Turkey, isnt this a genocide?? Noone talks about this!!


by maistir March 1, 2010 12:28 PM EST The Turkish Government continued to allow pogroms against the remaining Greek and Armenian communities and businesses well into the 1950's. All one has to do is read the Turkish writer Orhan Pamuk's book(s) about his life in Istanbul and look at the photos of looted properties (rather like *Kristallnacht* wasn't it?). Until the Turkish Republic admits its culpability for ethnic cleansing (Turkification) from 1915 on it should never be admitted into the EU. Its suppression of the Kurdish language, books and schools is still another blot on its record.


by zelster March 1, 2010 10:12 AM EST On behalf of all the Armenian Genocide VICTIMS as well as the SURVIVORS I would like to thank CBS NEWS for taking a stand by valuing "Humanity". My maternal and paternal grandparents were the sole survivors of their families.They witnessed the death of their parents, relatives and siblings, to mention the least. They lost everything; their parents, homes,and their siblings.They were too young to remember their family names...Suddenly they were homeless and wondering the streets among corpse...my grandfather, who was seven at the time, he was rescued by a "TURKISH GOOD SAMARITAN" and became to be his slave. After enduring years of slavery, my grandfather was able to escape and begin to rebuild his life. He was a true "Armenian". His actions were motivated by his determination to uphold the values of humanity and dignity instilled by his family. We are living PROOF that the "ARMENIAN GENOCIDE of 1915 OCCURRED". Therefore,bodies of governments and their people who still DENY the "GENOCIDE" are guided by false and inhumane values and principles, which are the blue prints of "Inhumanity". Thank you again to CBS NEWS for RECOGNIZING the Genocide and upholding the individual rights of all Armenians who perished. "Denial is an easy alternative, however the denial of a real occurrences such as the Atrocities of 1915 is difficult".


by Marialouisa March 1, 2010 9:13 AM EST Thank you for doing this story. This genocide inspired Hitler in his own. And the Koran teaches that Jews and Christians should be killed. So we must not forget.


by brianbwb2011 March 1, 2010 1:17 PM EST I challenge you to show where the Quran teaches such. You are like the standard American Christian, quoting from a book you have never read.

For the record, I am atheist, but have thoroughly read the Torah, the Bible, and Al Quran.

by Gititdun March 1, 2010 9:03 AM EST nice of 60 Minutes to be SO adamant about genocide 100 years ago somewhere else and not consider America was built upon the worse genocide in the worlds history with what 30 MILLION native Americans slaughtered for their lands and with slave labor, It still amazes me how quick America is to condemn others while ignoring their own sins.


by brianbwb2011 March 1, 2010 1:18 PM EST No joke, especially since we are in the midst of a campaign of genocide in two countries today.


by logicalbatu March 1, 2010 6:39 AM EST there is no genocide and a certain question has to be answered by armenians. why do not they open their historical records? turkish government invites all historicians to research in turkish records. we expect to see the same treatment from armenian government. they can not do this because this a lie. REMEMBER THE ARMENIAN L?ES! REMEMBER THE TURKISH AMBASSADORS WHO WERE KILLED BY ARMENIAN TERRORISTS!


by korhanerel March 1, 2010 5:56 AM EST My mother's great grandfather hosted a large group of Armenian women and children for as much as he could on his farm in Malatya. When the Armenians had to leave eventually, one woman with a small baby 'took' some of my mother's grandmother's gold with her. Her reaction to this was 'She had a baby. We understand and see the gold as a present for her.'


by korhanerel March 1, 2010 5:53 AM EST Turkey's president's family is also said to have Armenian roots.. Which one will we believe?


by korhanerel March 1, 2010 5:51 AM EST I am Turkish and do not deny the Ottoman Empire's role (specifically the role of Enver Pasha, who can actually be compared to Hitler for many things he did and tried to do) in the Armenian deaths. Whether that was a planned genocide or not, I cannot say. In my family, there are many stories about the conflict. My father's father was sent to Istanbul from his native Erzincan, because Armenian gangs were specifically targeting boys and men. My mother's family has the story of an Armenian priest, who alerted the Turkish residents of Malatya about a large scale massacre planned by Armenian gangs. I am sure our Armenian neighbors have similar sad, horrible stories on their side. However, I'd like to point out to one fact: when this issue is discussed on the international arena, there is surprisingly no mention of Germany's and Russia's role in these events. Germany and their pupper Enver Pasha were driving Turkey towards a national-state ideal, where Germany's interest laid in gaining solid ground in the conquest for Central Asia (Enver Pasha was killed by Bolshevik agents as he was trying to organize a rebellion in Central Asia). The Russians retailated by organizing Armenian militia to attack Ottoman posts and villages in the East. In the midst of all this, innocent Armenians, Turks and Kurds suffered great losses. And today, no mention of these two countries at all.


by korhanerel March 1, 2010 5:56 AM EST My mother's great grandfather hosted a large group of Armenian women and children for as much as he could on his farm in Malatya. When the Armenians had to leave eventually, one woman with a small baby 'took' some of my mother's grandmother's gold with her. Her reaction to this was 'She had a baby. We understand and see the gold as a present for her.'

by chinesespy February 28, 2010 11:52 PM EST Turkeys presidents grandfather is to have killed 5,000 armenians in 1915


by korhanerel March 1, 2010 5:53 AM EST Turkey's president's family is also said to have Armenian roots.. Which one will we believe?

by February 28, 2010 11:38 PM EST The Turkish ambassador said ?There was no intention of annihilating in all or in part the Armenian population."

Mr. ambassador, if you deport 1.5 million people and lose all of them on the way then I think it is obvious that you meant to lose them.

Thank You Bob Simon for a great report.


by burakayarci March 1, 2010 12:52 PM EST Armenian gangs did thier mass murder in Bitlis, Turkey. 500.000 Turks were murdered by uprising armenian gangs, I hope bob will report on this as well...

by GREGORIANARPA February 28, 2010 11:38 PM EST There was no bashing dear, just straight forward journalism. Perhaps a reporting on more significant stories such as the FBI linking the Turkish Lobby to bribery and blackmail would soothe you more?


by jasepru February 28, 2010 10:33 PM EST What's Bob Simon's deal with Turks? This is his second or third report bashing Turkey...Report on 'significant' stories please.


by armyoftwelve February 28, 2010 10:11 PM EST turkey brings disgrace upon itself by failing to admit the genocide it perpetuated against the Armenians. Imagine if the Germans were still in denial about the Holocaust!

We also shouldn't forget the pogroms turks commited against Anatolian Greeks, Syriacs and Assyrians...

REMEMBER THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE!



Comments on: Battle Over History

by armenia33 March 1, 2010 2:38 PM EST The facts that Turkey relies on are all falsified by the government. Turkey has dumb down their population so they would be easily influenced. Many TURKISH scholars believe the Armenian Genocide happened. Your won intellectuals trying to tell their own mislead and misinformed leaders that indeed Genocide occurred to the Armenians. Why are you Turks so hard headed?



by Kevork424 March 1, 2010 2:35 PM EST This report raises some good points and important facts on the Armenian Genocide, but is rife with big negatives, deliberate misrepresentations and outright lies:

1. Its frequent use of the terms "battle...the massacres...the events" to describe an incontestable fact is unacceptable and constitutes an unconscionable act of genocide denial -- the ultimate form of hate speech!

Allowing Amb. Sensoy the opportunity to deny the Armenian Genocide on national television is as criminal and cruel an act as airing any statements by a neo-Nazi leader denying the Jewish Holocaust!

2. It deliberately fails to identify the Armenian homeland of more than four millennia.

There is no reference to "Anatolia...eastern (Ottoman) Turkey...Western Armenia and Cilicia..."

CBS: "But our story begins where the lives of so many Armenians ended, far from Istanbul, in the desert...The survivors ended up in concentration camps hundreds of miles from Istanbul, out of sight."

Istanbul (then Constantinople) was never the Armenian homeland or part of the Armenian homeland. During the Armenian Genocide, Armenians (95%+) were cleansed and driven primarily from Western Armenia and Cilicia!

CBS deliberately does not want the nation to identify and respect the specific location and boundaries of the occupied Armenian homeland, the return of which is the crux of the Armenian Question and the main factor that would end the Armenian Genocide!

3. CBS: "Which is probably why no U.S. president has uttered the word genocide."

This is a blatant lie, as we know that Reagan used the "G" word during his presidency!

4. It highlights the power imbalance between Armenia and Turkey and stresses Turkey's "importance" to the United States and so-called "regional superpower" status.

CBS: "The use of the word genocide is regarded as an insult to the Turkish nation; it is a jailable offense..."

Why didn't CBS emphasize that the nonuse "of the word genocide is regarded as an insult to the [Armenian] nation"?!

5. With the one-sided Armenia-Turkey protocols practically dead, the timing of this report is driven by a desire to "kill the bill" using the same immoral arguments and tactics that somehow "worked" in 2007.

Most congressional supporters of the Armenian Genocide resolution are not that foolish and will not buy into these denialist measures.

When the House passed similar legislation in the late 1970s and early 1980s, Turkey didn't and couldn't retaliate! All it did was cry and verbally abuse the United States, and days later, everything was back to normal.

This righteous bill will again pass in the Foreign Relations Committee and advance to the House floor for a full and successful vote!


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 2:20 PM EST "The Armenian problem, like most race problems, was the result of centuries of ill-treatment and injustice. There could be only one solution for it, the creation of an orderly system of government, in which all citizens were to be treated upon an equality, and in which all offenses were to be punished as teh acts of individuals and not as of peoples. I argued fora long time along these and similar lines"..."It is not use for you to argue." Talaat answered. "We have already disposed of three quarters of the Armenians; there are none at all left in Bitlis, Van, and Erzeroum. The hatred between the Turks and the Armenians is now so intense that we have got to finish with them. If we don't, they will plan their revenge."..."If you are not influenced by humane considerations." I replies. "think of the material loss. These people are your business men. They control many of your indistries. They are very large tax-payers. What would become of you commmercially without them?"..."We care nothing about the commercial loss," replied Talaat. "We have figured all that out and we know that it will not exceed five million pounds. We don't worry about that. I have asked you to come here sa as to let you know that our Armenian policy is absoltely fixed and that nothing can change it. We will not have the Armeinans anywhere in Anatolia. They can live in the desert but nowhere else". ..."I still attempted to persuade Talaat that the treatment of the Armenians was destroying Turkey in the eyes of the world, and that his country woudl never be able to recover from this infamy. "NO ARMENIAN" replied talaat, "CAN BE OUR FRINED AFTER WHAT WE HAVE DONE TO THEM".


-----Henry Morgenthau, U.S. Ambassador to turkey: "The Murder of a Nation" pg.66-68


by Hrantwas March 1, 2010 2:19 PM EST Thanks BOB SIMON and CBS. # Let?s face it the only people that deny the GENOCIDE are the TURKS, Basically, a sleazer is a sleaze who refuses to accept they're a sleaze, when everyone knows for a fact, how damn sleazy they really are. Kind of in a perpetual state of self-denial about their sleaziness. Check it in Urban Dictionary if you would like.


by alpha4100 March 1, 2010 2:17 PM EST Thank you 60 Minutes for shedding light and informing public about one of the greatest human tragedies of 20th century. Armenians need a closure in this tragic part of their 5,000 year history and Turkish denials are only inflaming the wounds on descendents of genocide survivors. In contrast to general Turkish perception, Genocide has nothing to do with politics. It?s a human tragedy that needs recognition so the future generations do not repeat the inhumane acts of their predecessors. Killer needs to feel remorse, not justification of his/her actions.


by NAA2126 March 1, 2010 2:16 PM EST Thank you for doing a truly fantastic, crucial job to not only bring awareness to the Armenian Genocide to the greater American public, but also for addressing in the brief time CBS had the political effects even today of what, to many, might seem a far-away horror from the past century. It's absolutely critical for this issue to continue to be spoken about, discussed, and eventually resolved. Resolved does not mean have Armenian receive monetary compensation, or even necessarily land back, although obviously they deserve it. What I mean by resolved is for fact to be made known so that we as inhabitants of the modern world can incorporate what we can learn from this event, to make sure it never, ever, ever happens again. Until the U.S.A., and, more importantly, Turkey, openly recognize these basic facts as truth, we cannot truly learn from the events of 1915-1918. Again, thanks CBS.


by MAM2061 March 1, 2010 2:07 PM EST Thank you to 60 Minutes for airing, ?Battle Over History,? a poignant and factual representation of what really happened in the early part of the 20th Century with the 1.5 million Armenians who according to the Turkish government ?moved away? or ?just vanished.? There is irony in the Turkish government?s refusal to use the word genocide when sighting the mass deportation and village massacres of Armenians. The creator of the term ?genocide,? Raphael Lemkin, specifically cited what had happened to the Armenians and later to the Jews as his impetus for coming up with a word that would effectively describe those horrors. If the word was invented for this purpose, how can anyone dispute using it to describe what happened to the Armenians?


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 2:07 PM EST A REALITY CHECK FOR THE TURKS:

14 November 2005

British Foreign and Commonwealth Office rejects Turkish Parliament's letter against 1916 British Blue Book

In a further development in the on-going Blue Book saga, the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) has responded in kind to the Turkish Parliament's criticism of the 1916 British Parliamentary Blue Book The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire 1915-16. The Turkish letter of 28 April 2005 claimed that the Blue Book was British propaganda fabrication and that it vilified Ottoman Turks and continues to harm Turkish interests today.

However, in a letter dated 8 July 2005, the British Ambassador to Turkey, Sir Peter Westmacott, informed the Speaker of the Turkish Parliament that the Turkish Parliament's letter and enclosures criticising the Blue Book had been placed "in the Library of the House of Commons where they are available to all Members of Parliament" and where "it would act as a comment on the Blue Book itself and one to which historians have access."

There has been no formal response from British MPs and Peers because they were not told of the existence of the Turkish letter, even though it was addressed to all members of the Houses of Parliament and solicited a response.

In his opening remarks, Ambassador Westmacott explained that the 1916 Blue Book, The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire 1915-16, was a Parliament-owned document and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office could not make a statement on it. "However," Sir Westmacott added, "the Foreign and Commonwealth Office understands that whilst the publication of the Blue Book may have been regarded as desirable at the time in the context of the war effort, none of the individual reports has been refuted; and few have suggested moral or intellectual dishonesty on the part of the authors, Lord Bryce and Arnold J. Toynbee."

Sir Westmacott's words are significant because they represents a careful rejection of the Turkish position.

1/ Despite Sir Westmacott's statement that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office cannot say anything about the Blue Book because it is "a Parliament-owned document," he actually made such a statement on behalf of the British Foreign Secretary. His words were not an oversight but a warning to Turkish Parliamentarians that the FCO could engage the Blue Book issue if need be.

2/ Sir Westmacott clearly chose to disagree with the two cardinal points of the Turkish letter when he pointed out that (a) truth and propaganda are not necessarily mutually exclusive and do not appear to be so in the blue book; ( Bryce and Toynbee remain in good standing, and their roles in formulating the Blue Book have not been seriously challenged. This was a further suggestion that the British were able to dispel the Turkish criticism if need be.

3/ Finally, when making these statements, Sir Westmacott did not credit the offending Turkish letter and its assertions about the Blue Book with any weight at all. In fact his blanket rebuttal of Turkish criticisms is a measure of the British government sentiment regarding the Turkish position.

According to Ara Sarafian, who edited the "uncensored edition" of the 1916 Blue Book, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office's response was a skilful effort to defuse the Armenian issue before it became a self-inflicted debacle for Turkish Parliamentarians. By burying the Turkish letter in the House of Commons library, the FCO has prevented British Parliamentarians from defending their own document in a forthright manner. It also answered allegations against Great Britain by Turkish Parliamentarians, and threatened to examine the 1916 Blue Book in a forthright manner, should the Turkish side insist on their allegations.

To date, there has been no response to the British ambassador's letter


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 2:04 PM EST CULTURAL GENOCIDE: 'THEY DESTROYED THE CHURCH TO BUILD A MOSQUE'

Under this title Milliyet daily of Turkey informed on October 19 that in Argun village of Kulp province of Diarbekir an Armenian church was pulled down to build a mosque in its place. Construction of the mosque was suspended after a few citizens' complaint. According to Milliyet the historic Armenian church of Argun was partially destroyed in the time of republic to build houses with its stones thus making it useless for religious services.

But the Council of Protection of Cultural Heritage and Ecology included the semi-ruined church and the Armenian graveyard into the list of historic monuments needing protection. But builder Kerem Emre, resident of the village, pulled the church down together with part of the graveyard by approbation of his fellow villagers and used the stones of the church to lay foundation of the mosque.

The construction of the mosque began on May 10 but it was stopped after the complaint of several citizens that made the mayor of Kulp and the Diarbekir museum administration intervened.

Head of the village administration, Sadek Turan, told Milliyet on occasion of the illegal construction: "I tried to stop the construction. I provided them with another area for the mosque and told that there are already two mosques functioning in the village. Then builder Emre gathered his fellow villagers and came to me. They accused me of being against the mosque and therefore concluded that I must be an Armenian. I could not stand the pressure any more and gave in."

The village of Kulp was formerly Armenian village Khulp that administratively belonged to province of Mush before 1915.


by vanetsi March 1, 2010 2:03 PM EST Thank you to CBS, 60 minutes and Bob Simon for this report. It was accurate, to the point and fair. I would also like to thank the Turkish Ambassador for his honesty as well. I guess given the direct questions asked of him, he could not avoid giving answers that helps the Armenian Cause.

My top three answers from the Turkish Ambassador are the following:

First, he admitted that there are bones everywhere in Turkey. Obviously, Turkey has a violent history. I cannot imagine other civilized countries admitting that there are mass graves everywhere in their country.

Second, he admitted that there were mass deportations into the desert and "bad things" happened along the way. Obviously, if you deport defenseless people into the desert without food, water and protection, they will die. It is similar to a murderer saying I stabbed the guy. If there is a hole in his chest and blood is gushing out, bad things will happen.

Third, he admitted that the reason why past US leaders are against a congressional resolution recognizing the genocide is not because it is a lie, but because Turkey is too important to the US for US to make such a recognition.

For these three points, I thank the Turkish Ambassador. He practically made our case for us.

I would have also liked him to answer this question: Why is it a crime punishable by a jail, to use the word "Genocide" in Turkey? If he answered this question like he answered the ones above, he would have said: because we don't want our people to start talking about what happened in 1915 and start realizing the truth. We want to brainwash them and keep them ignorant, because that is the only way we can make this pesty genocide issue go away.

Again, I thank Bob Simon for asking the right questions and CBS 60 minutes for giving their valuable time to an imortant issue.

Good job.


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 2:02 PM EST BUCKLEY: WELLESLEY WOMAN IMPRISONED IN ARMENIAN GENOCIDE By James J. Buckley

MetroWest Daily News, MA


Modern-day Turkey's efforts to join the European Union (EU) is being opposed by humanitarians throughout the world. They repeatedly cite the genocide perpetrated by the Turks between 1915 and 1923 as sufficient reason to deny Turkey membership.

The Turks claim nothing out of the ordinary happened to Armenians during those years. However, the events surrounding the capture of a young Wellesley woman clearly shows that something quite out of the ordinary was indeed occurring in that part of the world in 1920.

Some historians have suggested that if the world had reacted negatively toward Turkey's actions in Armenia in 1915, Hitler would not have concluded he could get away with the genocide of Jews during World War II. And in fact Hitler did cite the lack of any worldwide efforts against Turkey in the years 1915-1923 as proof that he could get away with exterminating Jews without any significant backlash.

All this implies that nations such as the U.S. did nothing for the Armenians during those years. But such an implication is not completely valid. The U.S. took a number of steps to help -- one of those steps involved Miss Marion Peabody of Arlington Road, Wellesley Hills.

The Near East Relief (NER) was organized with congressional approval and with the ardent support of President Woodrow Wilson. Its job was to coordinate all relief efforts and fundraising activities throughout the U.S. in order to save "the starving Armenians." In time, millions were raised and filtered through the U.S. Embassy in Constantinople that in turn handed the funds over to missionaries who delivered the money and goods to Armenians.

Needless to say, the Turks were not happy with this arrangement, even though it was abundantly clear that the U.S. was making every effort to help the Armenians without antagonizing the Turkish government. But the Turks wanted no aid to reach the Armenians who were unwilling subjects of the Ottoman Empire.

Some Turks set out to make life as miserable as possible for the missionaries and NER workers who were charged with distributing the funds and goods. As a result, in 1920, 20 workers associated with the NER and working in the Black Sea port of Samsoun were detained by a group calling themselves Turkish Nationalists.

The press at that time had virtually none of the abundance of resources available to it today. But even so, the news media of that time was somehow able to uncover this incident and highlight it in their news reports. This forced the NER to confirm that the workers were being detained, but it stressed that they were in no danger.

But subsequently it was learned that two weeks before the Samsoun incident, five other workers, including Colonel Coombs and Marion Peabody, had been captured by the Turks. If the leaders of NER had kept the earlier incident secret because they did not want to alarm the families of the detainees and the American people in general, they must have been dismayed when their secrecy had the opposite affect.

If detaining the 20 Americans had been an isolated incident, the American people might have not become alarmed. But when they discovered that another group of Americans had been detained two weeks before, Americans saw a pattern of behavior by the Turks that was interpreted as a definite threat against their countrymen.

Suddenly Colonel Coombs and, to a lesser extent Marion Peabody, became celebrities whose ominous situation became the topic of discussion throughout the nation.

In order to quell the fears of the American people, the NER decided that Charles Vickery, secretary of the NER, should personally travel to Samsoun and other locations where NER personnel were in order to determine firsthand what was happening to Colonel Coombs, Marion Peabody and the other detainees.

Fortunately for the workers, even though the leaders of the Turkish government stubbornly refused to admit any genocidal action against the Armenians, they nevertheless began to realize that detaining Americans was causing the American press to spotlight their activities in Armenia. Since their policy was to keep their persecution of Armenians as quiet as possible, they reluctantly decided to release the Americans. As a result, Vickery was able to announce upon his return to the U.S. that the NER workers were being released and that they had not been harmed.

When Marion Peabody's brother Harry learned that Marion was no longer in custody and was on her way back to the U.S., he and his wife journeyed to New York City to await her arrival and bring her back to the safety of her home in Wellesley Hills.


by ozball March 1, 2010 1:59 PM EST If Armenians were treated so terrible, then why was the richest man in the history of the world (until he died), was an Armenian born in Turkey (in 1869)? Calouste Gulbenkian ("Mr. 5 percent" of all the oil in Iraq) who worked for the Ottoman Empire, and who swindled the Empire out of Iraq, was a Turkish-Armenian, and at that time Ottoman empire was the closest thing to the USA, as in multi-ethnic. And yes, I said he swindled the Empire out of Iraq...specifically the oil under it, he didn't give a hoot about any Christians or Armenians there until he made his zillions. Of course, CBS has no clue about actual history and gets its history from Wikipedia, which by the way has Turkish history made up by Armenian high school kids in Glendale, California. This is very simple. Think about it. Ottoman Empire lost 90% of population, 90% of territory, and 99% of it's treasury. But in the wake of, and during all this, Armenians created a new nation from Ottoman territory, an Armenian became the richest man for nearly a century without ever lifting a finger, all the oil in Iraq went to Armenians and their allies, Armenians soldiers received heroes medals from the French, Russians, and Brits, and Armeniasn attended the best schools in the west like Oxford, Harvard, Stanford, AND Iraq and the Middle East is still in shambles. So I ask you CBS, what do you think this is all about? Justice? Kurdish rights? It's simple. It's about what WW1 was about, and that was wiping out Turks and Turkish power in the middle east, and looting all the resources from under everybody. So, when you make allegations of mass murder against on the air, against an entire race of people, PLEASE DO SOME INDEPENDENT RESEARCH.


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 2:20 PM EST "The Armenian problem, like most race problems, was the result of centuries of ill-treatment and injustice. There could be only one solution for it, the creation of an orderly system of government, in which all citizens were to be treated upon an equality, and in which all offenses were to be punished as teh acts of individuals and not as of peoples. I argued fora long time along these and similar lines"..."It is not use for you to argue." Talaat answered. "We have already disposed of three quarters of the Armenians; there are none at all left in Bitlis, Van, and Erzeroum. The hatred between the Turks and the Armenians is now so intense that we have got to finish with them. If we don't, they will plan their revenge."..."If you are not influenced by humane considerations." I replies. "think of the material loss. These people are your business men. They control many of your indistries. They are very large tax-payers. What would become of you commmercially without them?"..."We care nothing about the commercial loss," replied Talaat. "We have figured all that out and we know that it will not exceed five million pounds. We don't worry about that. I have asked you to come here sa as to let you know that our Armenian policy is absoltely fixed and that nothing can change it. We will not have the Armeinans anywhere in Anatolia. They can live in the desert but nowhere else". ..."I still attempted to persuade Talaat that the treatment of the Armenians was destroying Turkey in the eyes of the world, and that his country woudl never be able to recover from this infamy. "NO ARMENIAN" replied talaat, "CAN BE OUR FRINED AFTER WHAT WE HAVE DONE TO THEM".


-----Henry Morgenthau, U.S. Ambassador to turkey: "The Murder of a Nation" pg.66-68




by Hrantwas March 1, 2010 1:58 PM EST Turkish government was the one that gave birth to ASALA by deniying the GENOCIDE. At that time there was USSR. turks are still calling the Armenians `Gavuur` {Racial slurs} Abdullah ?atl?'s Neo-Fascist one of the worst types of terrorists one might think of. He brutally killed turkish students, children, was involved in drug trafficking, his Girlfreand a turk Beuty Quen; had connections with mafia, was a drug addict himself and still was a Turkish police agent. ## Foreigners and Journalists in turkish JAILS. Tourist Boycott anything from Turkey


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 1:58 PM EST The Independent (London)



by Robert Fisk



In the spring of 1993, with my car keys, I slowly unearthed a set of skulls from the clay wall of a hill in northern Syria. I had been looking for the evidence of a mass murder - the world's first genocide - for the previous two days but it took a 101-year-old Armenian woman to locate the river bed where her family were murdered in the First World War. The more I dug into the hillside next to the Habur river, the more skulls slid from the earth, bright white at first then, gradually, collapsing into paste as the cold, wet air reached the calcium for the first time since their mass murder. The teeth were unblemished - these were mostly young people - and the bones I later found stretched behind them were strong. Backbones, femurs, joints, a few of them laced with the remains of some kind of cord. There were dozens of skeletons here. The more I dug away with my car keys, the more eye sockets peered at me out of the clay. It was a place of horror.

In 1915, the world reacted with equal horror as news emerged from the dying Ottoman Empire of the deliberate destruction of at least a million and a half Christian Armenians. Their fate - the ethnic cleansing of this ancient race from the lands of Turkey, the razing of their towns and churches, the mass slaughter of their menfolk, the massacre of their women and children -was denounced in Paris, London and Washington as a war crime. Tens of thousands of Armenian women - often after mass rape by their Turkish guards - were left to die of starvation with their children along the banks of the Habur river near Deir ez-Zour, in what is today northern Syria. The few men who survived were tied together and thrown into the river. Turkish gendarmes would fire a bullet into one of them and his body would drag the rest to their deaths. Their skulls - a few of them - were among the bones I unearthed on that terrible afternoon seven years ago.

The deliberate nature of this slaughter was admitted by the then Turkish leader, Enver *****, in a conversation with Henry Morgenthau, the US ambassador in Constantinople, a Jewish-American diplomat whose vivid reports to Washington in 1915 form an indictment of the greatest war crime the modern world had ever known. Enver denounced the Armenians for siding with Russia in its war with the Turks. But even the Germans, Ottoman Turkey's ally in the First World War, condemned the atrocities; for it was the Armenian civilian population which was cut down by the Turks. The historian Arnold Toynbee, who worked for the Foreign Office during the war, was to record the "atmosphere of horror" which lay over the abandoned Armenian lands in the aftermath of the savagery. Men had been lined up on bridges to have their throats cut and be thrown into rivers; in orchards and fields, women and children had been knifed. Armenians had been shot by the thousand, sometimes beaten to death with clubs. Earlier Turkish pogroms against the Armenians of Asia Minor had been denounced by Lord Gladstone. In the aftermath of the 1914-18 war, Winston Churchill was the most eloquent in reminding the world of the Armenian Holocaust.

"In 1915 the Turkish Government began and ruthlessly carried out the infamous general massacre and deportation of Armenians in Asia Minor," Churchill wrote in his magisterial volume four of The Great War. "... the clearance of the race from Asia Minor was about as complete as such an act, on a scale so great, could well be ... There is no reasonable doubt that this crime was planned and executed for political reasons." Churchill referred to the Turks as "war criminals" and wrote of their "massacring uncounted thousands of helpless Armenians - men, women and children together; whole districts blotted out in one administrative holocaust -these were beyond human redress."


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 1:57 PM EST The Independent (London) August 5, 2000, Saturday



by Robert Fisk


So Churchill himself, writing 80 years ago, used the word "holocaust" about the Armenian massacres. I am not surprised. A few miles north of the site where I had dug up those skulls, I found a complex of underground caves beneath the Syrian desert. Thousands of Armenians had been driven into this subterranean world in 1915 and Turkish gendarmes lit bonfires at the mouths of the caves. The smoke was blown into the caves and the men were asphyxiated. The caves were the world's first gas chambers. No wonder, then, that Hitler is recorded as asking his generals - as he planned his own numerically far more terrible holocaust - "Who does now remember the Armenians?"

Could such a crime be denied? Could such an act of mass wickedness be covered up? Or could it, as Hitler suggested, be forgotten? Could the world's first holocaust - a painful irony, this - be half-acknowledged but downgraded in the list of human bestiality as the dreadful 20th century produced further acts of mass barbarity?

Alas, all this has come to pass. When I wrote about the Armenian massacres in The Independent in 1993, the Turks denounced my article - as they have countless books and investigations before and since - as a lie. Turkish readers wrote to the editor to demand my dismissal from the paper. If Armenian civilians had been killed, they wrote, this was a result of the anarchy that existed in Ottoman Turkey in the First World War, civil chaos in which countless Turks had died and in which Armenian paramilitaries had deliberately taken the side of Tsarist Russia. The evidence of European commissions into the massacres, the eye-witness accounts of Western journalists at the later slaughter of Armenians at Smyrna - the present-day holiday resort of Izmir where British sunbathers today have no idea of the bloodbath that took place around their beaches - the denunciations of Morgenthau and Churchill, are all dismissed as propaganda.

by WarWrongs March 1, 2010 1:55 PM EST The 1800's and Early 1900's were Barbaric + Violent all throughout Europe + the Middle East. The Ottoman EMPIRE mentality was rampant in the Region. You can not hold that Empire + Mentality, Responsible for activities that happen in War Times !!!! WWI was the cause of this Fighting, and there is no such EMPIRE exsisting today to blame. Labeling this Fight from over 100 years ago is a Useless Topic to bring up. Everyday people die on the Street because of Barbaric Reasons and we don't call this anything but Life / War.

All countries + regions used Tough Barbaric Mentalities during wars, and Single'ing out 1 incident from over a Century ago, is very Childish + Embarasing for the Aremenians.


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 1:54 PM EST The Independent (London) ---I


by Robert Fisk

When a Holocaust conference was to be held in Israel, the Turkish government objected to the inclusion of material on the Armenian slaughter. Incredibly, Auschwitz survivor Elie Wiesel withdrew from the conference after the Israeli foreign ministry said that it might damage Israeli-Turkish relations. The conference went ahead, but only in miniature form. In the United States, Turkey's powerful lobby groups attack journalists or academics who suggest the Armenian genocide was fact. Turkish ambassadors regularly write letters - which have appeared in all British newspapers, even in the Israeli press - denying the truth of the Armenian Holocaust. No one - save the Armenians - objects to this denial. Scarcely a whimper comes from those who would, rightly, condemn any denial of the Jewish Holocaust.

For Turkey - no longer the "sick man of Europe" - is courted by the Western powers which so angrily condemned its cruelty in the last century. It is a valued member of the Nato alliance - our ally in bombing Serbia last year -the closest regional ally of Israel and a major buyer of US and French weaponry. Just as we remained largely silent at the persecution of the Kurds, so we prefer to ignore the world's first holocaust. While Britain's massive contribution to the proposed Euphrates dam project in south-eastern Turkey was in the balance, Tony Blair was not going to mention the Armenian atrocities. Indeed, when this year he announced that Britain was to honour an annual Holocaust Day, he made no mention of the Armenians. Holocaust Day, it seems, was to be a Jewish-only affair. And it was to take a capital "H" when it applied to the Jews.

I've always agreed with this. Mass ethnic slaughter on such a scale -Hitler's murder of six million Jews - deserves a capital "H". But I also believe that the genocide of other races merits a capital "H". Millions of Jews - despite Wiesel's gutlessness and the shameful reaction of the Israeli government - have shown common cause with the Armenians in their suffering, acknowledging the 1915 massacres as the precursor of the "Shoah" or Jewish Holocaust. Norman Finkelstein in his angry new book on the "Holocaust industry" makes a similar point, adding that the Jewish experience - both his parents were extermination camp survivors - should not be allowed to diminish the genocide committed against other ethnic groups in modern history. Indeed, the very word "genocide" was invented for the Armenians in 1944 - by a Polish-born Jew, Raphael Lemkin.

Nor can I myself forget the Armenian Holocaust. The very last survivors of that genocide are still - just - alive, and several of them live in Beirut where I am based as Middle East correspondent of The Independent. I have read extensively about and, occasionally, researched the Jewish Holocaust -my own book about the Lebanese war, Pity the Nation, begins in Auschwitz, where I found frozen lakes filled with the powdered bones of the dead from the ashpits of Birkenau. But the Armenian Holocaust has been "my" story because it is part of the Middle East's history as well as the world's. Only this year, I interviewed Hartun, a 101-year-old blind Armenian in an old people's home in East Beirut who remembered how, in the Syrian desert in 1915, his mother pleaded with Turks not to rape her 18-year-old daughter - Hartun's sister. "As she begged them not to take my sister, they beat her to death," Hartun recalled. "I remember her dying, shouting 'Hartun, Hartun, Hartun' over and over. When she was dead, they took my sister away on a horse. I never saw her again." Hartun - after years of bitterness and longing for revenge - was overcome with what he called "my Christian belief" and decided to abandon the notion of vengeance. "When the Turkish earthquake killed so many people last year," he told me, "I prayed for the poor Turkish people."


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 1:53 PM EST The Independent (London) ---II




by Robert Fisk



It was a deeply moving example of compassion from a man whose suffering those Turks will not admit and whose Holocaust we prefer to ignore. Stirred partly by Hartun's story, I wrote an article for The Independent in January of this year on the "sublimation" of the Armenian genocide, its wilful denial by US academics who hold American university professorships funded by the Turkish government, and the absence of any reference to the Armenians in the British Government's announcement of Holocaust Day. And, yes, I referred to the Armenian Holocaust - as I did to the Jewish Holocaust - with a capital "H". Chatting to an Armenian acquaintance, I mentioned that I had given the Armenian genocide the same capital "H" which I believe should be attached to all acts of genocide.

Little could I have guessed how quickly the dead would rise from their graves. When the article appeared in The Independent - a paper which has never failed to dig into human wickedness visited upon every race and creed - my references to the Jewish Holocaust remained with a capital "H". But the Armenian Holocaust had been downgraded to a lower case "h". "Tell me, Robert," my Armenian friend asked me in suppressed fury, "how do we Armenians qualify for a capital 'H'? Didn't the Turks kill enough of us? Or is it because we're not Jewish?"

There are no conspiracies on The Independent's subs desk; just a tough, no -nonsense rule that our articles follow a grammatical "house style" and conform to what is called "common usage". And the Jewish Holocaust, through common usage, takes a capital "H". Other holocausts don't. No one is quite sure why - the same practice is followed in newspapers and books all over the world, although it has been the subject of debate in the United States, not least by Finkelstein. Harvard turned down a professorial "Chair of Holocaust and Cognate Studies" because academics objected to the genocide of other groups (including the Armenians) being lumped together as "cognate". But none of this answered the questions of my Armenian friend. To have told him his people didn't qualify for a capital "H" would have been shameful and insulting.

A debate then opened within The Independent. I wrote in a memo that the word "holocaust" could be cheapened by over-use and exaggeration - take the agency report last year which referred to the "holocaust" of wildlife after an oil -spill on the French coast. But I said that I still had no answer worthy of the question posed by my Armenian friend.

One of the paper's top wordsmiths was asked to comment - a grammatical expert who regularly teases out the horrors of definition in an imperfect and savage world. He cited Chambers Dictionary, which stated that the Jewish Holocaust was "usually" capitalised. And, said our expert on the paper, "It is in the nature of a proper noun to apply to only one thing." Thus there may be many crusades but only one Crusade (the Middle Ages one). There may be many cities but the City is London. Similarly the Renaissance.

"There can be only one Holocaust," he wrote. "Is the Holocaust really unique? Yes. It was perpetrated by modern Europeans. Its purported justification was a perversion of Darwin, one of the great thinkers of modern Europe. Above all, in the gas chambers and crematoria it manufactured death by modern industrial methods. The Holocaust says to modern Western man that his technological mastery will not save him from sin, but rather magnify the results of his sins. There have been acts of genocide throughout history and some of them have killed more people than the Nazis did, but we call the Nazi holocaust 'the Holocaust' because it is our holocaust."


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 1:50 PM EST The Independent (London) ---III




by Robert Fisk




Must we, our grammarian asked, "commit grammatical faux pas and overturn an accepted usage for which there is ample justification? Finally, where does it end? Are, for instance, the crimes of Stalin against minority nationalities in the Soviet Union not just as bad as the Armenian slaughters? What of the Khmer Rouge? Rwanda? The Roman destruction of Carthage? Are these also to be 'Holocausts'? If not, why not?"

Powerful arguments, but ones with which I disagreed. The Jewish Holocaust, I wrote back, should be capitalised not because its victims were European Jews, or those of any other race, but because its victims were human beings. Human values, the right to life, the struggle against evil, are universal - "not confined to Europeans or one ethnic or religious group, or involving those who distorted Darwin's theories of biological evolution". It was, after all, The Independent's editorial policy that the world must fight against all atrocities - a belief which underlay our demand for humanitarian action in East Timor and Kosovo. This did not mean that I regarded Timor and Kosovo as holocausts, but that we should never accept the idea that one group of victims had special status over others. I spend hours telling Arabs that they must accept and acknowledge the facts of the Jewish Holocaust, but if we are now to regard this as a specifically European crime, as "our" crime, I have few arguments left. The Arabs can say it is none of their business.

As for the question, "Where does it end?" Yes, what about Armenia? And Rwanda? If Armenians are disqualified from a capital "H" because they only lost one and a half million, what is Rwanda's sin of exclusion? Religion? Race? Colour? When Armenians in Israel speak of their people's suffering, they use the Hebrew word Shoah - which means Holocaust.

The Independent's editor suggested that we should debate these questions in an article in the paper - this is the article - but the issues, of course, remain unresolved. "Common usage" is a bane to all us journalists but it is not sacred. It doesn't have to stand still. My father fought in what he called the Great War - common usage which was later amended, after 1945, to the First World War. Similarly, I believe, the Holocaust. In the aftermath of my January remarks on the Armenian genocide, The Independent published a denial of that same genocide by a Turkish Cypriot academic, in which we printed the word Holocaust with a capital "H". The world did not end. The Turks did not complain. Nor did any members of the Jewish community. Indeed, only last year, a prominent academic at the Hebrew University's Armenian studies programme in Israel talked of the Armenians and Jews having "suffered holocaust".

In the meantime, Holocaust - or holocaust - denial continues. President Chirac has declined to endorse the French parliament's acknowledgement of the Armenian genocide and forthcoming Holocaust conferences have not invited Armenians to participate. Mr Blair doesn't mention the destruction of the Armenians. They don't count, literally. Common usage - and our concern for Turkish sensitivities - has seen to that, even though genocide is anything but normal. Germany dutifully acknowledges its historical guilt for the wickedness of the Jewish Holocaust. Not so the Turks. Armenians accept that a few Turks - courageous, outstanding men - risked their lives in 1915 to shelter their Armenian friends and neighbours, just as "righteous gentiles" did for the Jews of Europe. But Turkey cannot honour these brave men. Since the Armenian Holocaust supposedly did not exist, nor did they. A holocaust rather than a Holocaust helps to diminish the suffering of the Armenians. What's in a name? What's in a capital letter? How many other skulls lie beneath the sands of northern Syria? Did the Turks not kill enough Armenians?


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 1:48 PM EST Independent (London)


'THE TURKS BROUGHT WHOLE FAMILIES UP HERE TO KILL THEM' ROBERT FISK DESCRIBES HIS RETURN TO THE SCENE OF THE ARMENIAN MASSACRE; THE GREAT WAR FOR CIVILIZATION BY ROBERT FISK FOURTH ESTATE ?25

by ROBERT FISK


Robert Fisk recovers after being beaten by a mob on a road near Quetta, Pakistan, 2001 HUSSEIN MALLA/AP

Exposed to the air, the bones became soft and claylike and flaked away in our hands, the last mortal remains of an entire race of people disappearing as swiftly as their Turkish oppressors would have wished us to forget them. As many as 50,000 Armenians were murdered in this little killing field, and it took a minute or two before Ellsen and I fully comprehended that we were standing in a mass grave. For Margada and the Syrian desert around it " like thousands of villages in what was Turkish Armenia " are the Auschwitz of the Armenian people, the place of the world's first, forgotten, Holocaust.

The parallel with Auschwitz is no idle one. Turkey's reign of terror against the Armenian people was an attempt to destroy the Armenian race. The Armenian death toll was almost a million and a half. While the Turks spoke publicly of the need to 'resettle' their Armenian population "as the Germans were to speak later of the Jews of Europe" the true intentions of the Turkish government were quite specific. On 15 September 1915, for example " and a carbon of this document exists " the Turkish interior minister, Talaat *****, cabled an instruction to his prefect in Aleppo. 'You have already been informed that the Government... has decided to destroy completely all the indicated persons living in Turkey... Their existence must be terminated, however tragic the measures taken may be, and no regard must be paid to either age or sex, or to any scruples of conscience.'

Was this not exactly what Himmler told his SS murderers in 1941? Here on the hill of Margada, we were now standing among what was left of the 'indicated persons'. And Boghos Dakessian, who along with his five-year- old nephew Hagop had driven up to the Habur with us from the Syrian town of Deir es-Zour, knew all about those 'tragic measures'. 'The Turks brought whole families up here to kill them. It went on for days. They would tie them together in lines, men, children, women, most of them starving and sick, many naked. Then they would push them off the hill into the river and shoot one of them. The dead body would then carry the others down and drown them. It was cheap that way. It cost only one bullet.'


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 1:46 PM EST Author Akcam, Taner Publisher Zed Books ISBN 1842775278 Binding PB List Price ?16.95 Discount Price ?14.41 (15% off!) Categories History, Human Rights, Politics buy this book


* 'Taner Ak?am is one of the new generation of scholars from Turkey developing a new understanding of Turkish history, and who are trying to explore the transition from the Ottoman Empire to the Republic. In Turkey, this subject has been made taboo politically and in official historical writing, and efforts at seeking historical truth and justice


are full of personal risks. We hope that his example of courage and intellectual honesty will contribute to a better understanding between peoples in the region.' - Yair Auron, The Open University of Israel


* 'This book is original, discriminating, and confronts profound issues. It should be accessible to a wide audience, not scholars alone.


From Empire to Republic is a book that could have a large impact on how both Turkish history and the Armenian Genocide are understood' - Roger W. Smith, Professor Emeritus, Department of Government, College of William and Mary


* 'Taner Ak?am's approach to the analysis of the lingering Turkish-Armenian conflict is as novel as it is phenomenal. He proposes a new kind of scholarly dialogue that is based on non-partisan, authentic official documents and upon scholars, both Turkish and Armenian, whose commitment to unadulterated truth is optimal' - Vahakn N. Dadrian, Director of Genocide Research, Zoryan Institute


* 'Dr. Ak?am has been working tirelessly, and against tremendous odds,to overcome prejudices and biases in order to initiate dialoguebetween the Turks and the Armenians. He has diligently delved into primary sources to understand, illuminate and analyze some of the darker aspects of human behavior in general and the Armenian tragedy in particular. His critical focus on this particular silence in Turkish history is bound to bolster the democratic forces in that society. Dr. Ak?am's scholarship is meticulous, his perspectives illuminating, and his moral fortitude inspiring. In all, what is most remarkable is not only his perseverance, but also his genuine sense of optimism' - Fatma M?ge G??ek, Sociology Department, University of Michigan-Ann Arbor


Taner Ak?am is one of the first Turkish academics to acknowledge and discuss openly the Armenian Genocide perpetrated by the Ottoman-Turkish government in 1915. This book discusses western political policies towards the region generally, and represents the first serious scholarly attempt to understand the Genocide from a perpetrator rather than victim perspective, and to contextualize those events within Turkey's political history. By refusing to acknowledge the fact of genocide, successive Turkish governments not only perpetuate massive historical injustice, but also pose a fundamental obstacle to Turkey's democratization today.


Contents
Preface Introduction
1. What Are Turkey's Fundamental Problems? A Model for Understanding
Turkey Today 2. A Theoretical Approach to Understanding Turkish
National
Identity
3. Some Aspects of Turkish National Identity and the Armenian Genocide
4. The Homogenizing and Ethnic Cleansing of Anatolia
5. The Decision for Genocide in Light of Ottoman-Turkish Documents
6. The Treaties of S?vres and Lausanne: An Alternative Perspective
7. The Causes and Effects of Making Turkish History "Taboo"
8. The Genocide and Turkey 9. Some Theoretical Thoughts on the
Obstacles
to Armenian-Turkish Reconciliation


Taner Akcam is Visiting Professor at the University of Minnesota,
Twin Cities.


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 1:44 PM EST
Age, Australia



Turkey's wilful forgetting



If Turkey wants to be part of the EU it must be prepared to face up to its history.


'Who remembers today the Armenians?" Adolf Hitler is reputed to have said as he prepared to invade Poland. Ninety years after the killing of up to 1.5 million Armenians by Ottoman Turks during World War I many people do still remember - most of all the descendants of those who were murdered. In April 1915 Turkish soldiers arrested hundreds of Armenian intellectuals and community leaders in Constantinople, then tortured and executed them. The Ottoman authorities then ordered the mass expulsion of Armenians from eastern Anatolia, where they were suspected of working with Russia to create a separate state. The slaughter of Armenians continued over the next several years.

Terrible atrocities were carried out, even against children. This has become known as the first genocide of the 20th century. What has kept bitterness alive is Turkey's insistence that no genocide ever took place, although it admits many thousands of people died as a result of "civil strife".


Now the Armenians are seeking international recognition that their people were victims of a deliberate campaign of extermination. One thing gives hope they might achieve this: Turkey's desire to become part of the European Union. France, which is one of 15 countries to recognise the Armenian genocide, has called on Turkey to set the record straight before it can join the EU. The Turkish Prime Minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, has recently proposed a joint Turkish and Armenian commission to investigate the genocide claims. The proposal is welcome, even though its critics say most of the incriminating evidence has been expunged from the Turkish archives.


Turkey has been guilty of wilful amnesia. Germany has managed to reinstate itself as a responsible international citizen because of its recognition of, and contrition for, its Nazi past. Japan is belatedly realising the importance of properly apologising for its wartime atrocities. Turkey wants to be seen as moderate and progressive, fit to be part of Europe, and to that end it has instituted significant social and human rights reforms. But if it is to be permitted to join the EU it must be prepared to own up to its past. As history shows, victims do not forget, and forgiveness is not possible before an acknowledgement of the wrongs committed.


by OttomanSultan March 1, 2010 1:44 PM EST
Well, Armenians just show their real face. No facts, just political games. Actually, you made my day by prooving me the Armenian Genocide Resolution is not based on facts, but on political grounds. Bravo! Keep on!


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 1:43 PM EST
ARCHIVE

Telegram Sent


Department of State, Washington


May 29, 1915


Amembassy [American Embassy],


Constantinople.


French Foreign Office requests following notice be given Turkish Government. Quote. May 24th


For about a month the Kurd and Turkish populations of Armenia has been massacring Armenians with the connivance and often assistance of Ottoman authorities. Such massacres took place in middle April(new style) at Erzerum, Dertchun, Eguine, Akn, Bitlis, Mush, Sassun, Zeitun,


and throughout Cilicia. Inhabitants of about on hundred villages near Van were all murdered. In that city Armenian quarter is besieged by Kurds. At the same time in Constantionple Ottoman Government ill-treats


inoffensive Armenian population. In view of those new crimes of Turkey against humanity and civilization, the Allied governments announce publicly to the Sublime-Porte that they will hold personally responsible [for] these crimes all members of the Ottoman government and those of their agents who are implicated in such massacres.


Unquote.


R.G. 59,867.4016/67


by OttomanSultan March 1, 2010 1:41 PM EST
Your text above prooves there was no genocide, only a relocation of citizens who were in close collaboration with the enemy during wartime. All Armenians here see one side of the medallion. There is also the other side, where millions of Turks suffered from Russo-Armenian attrocities. So the Ottoman government was obliged to protect its citizens and they did by relocating the revolting Armenians. Sadly, and no Turk denies this, Armenians died because of this relocation. This by no means can be called genocide. This is a drastic measure in a drastic moment!


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 1:40 PM EST
Israel Hasbara Committee, NY



By Mayaan Jaffe



One-and-a-half million innocent individuals were killed. Women were raped and children were tortured. The survivors are few, the pain is great. But even ninety years after the Armenian Genocide, in which Armenians were systematically murdered at the hands of the Ottoman Turks, many ignore or deny the tragedy; many, but not all...


On 2 May 2005, the Hebrew University Armenian Studies Program, under the auspices of Professor Michael E. Stone, brought the massacre to the forefront of the thoughts of Israelis in a commemorative evening, one week after the 24 April official day of remembrance of the genocide. There was laughter, there were tears, and despite the pain of the speakers (who presented materials in English, Hebrew, Armenian and Russian), they offered sentiments of empowerment, outlooks of hope. His Beatitude Patriarch Torkom II, the Armenian Patriarch of Jerusalem, was present. Steven Kaplan, Dean of the Department of Humanities at the Hebrew University, attended as well. Mr. Tsolag Momjian, Honorary Consul of the Republic of Armenia, inspired the crowd with his personal story. And leading scholars in the field of genocide, including keynote speaker Professor Israel Charney and Armenian Studies Program Director Professor Michael E. Stone, offered educational and inspirational lectures.


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 1:39 PM EST
Israel Hasbara Committee, NY I



By Mayaan Jaffe



The evening was not a small feat for the Hebrew University. Despite an Armenian-Israeli population of 25,000 and aside from scattered Israeli politicians who support genocide commemoration and study, the Jewish state has refused to recognize the Armenian massacre. The country's reasons are twofold. First of all, Israel has few allies and is afraid to harm its relations with Turkey, a perpetrator who has still not taken responsibility for its crime. Second of all, there is a hesitation among Jews to give credence to other genocides so as not to detract from the world's focus on the Nazi Holocaust, in which some six million Jews were murdered. While the former may be a viable reason for Israel's stance, according to Monday's keynote speaker Professor Israel Charney, the second reason is totally unfounded.


Said Charney, "We have an absolute moral responsibility to recognize the Armenian Genocide... Respecting and honoring the memory and history of each and every genocide is the first essential step towards creating new means of preventing genocide to all people in the future."


And there might be some truth to Charney's statement. The Armenian Holocaust of 1915 occurred less than half-a-century before the Jewish Holocaust. Adolf Hitler was aware of how the world almost instantaneously 'forgot' about the Armenians. In one of Hitler's many speeches he recognized the Armenian Genocide, drew comparisons between it and the acts he plotted to carry out, and used it as a means to encourage his followers. He said, "I have issued the command - and I'll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad - that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formations in readiness ... with orders for them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space ... we need. Who after all speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?"


Making the connection then


As the statement by Hitler alludes, there is a deep connection between the Armenians and the Jews. But the histories of the two peoples connect more extensively than one might imagine. Senior lecturer at the Open University of Israel and the Kibbutzim College of Education, Professor Yair Auron has dedicated himself to bringing to light the connection Armenians and Jews, their trials and tribulations. In his book The Banality of Indifference: Zionism and the Armenian Genocide (Transaction Books, 2000), which was published this year in Hebrew in honor of the 90th anniversary, he writes: "At the time of the Armenian genocide, the possibility of its extension to include the Ottoman Jews was just barely avoided. One cannot help but be reminded that between the two world wars, when the fate of the Armenians became the forgotten genocide, European Jewry failed to heed the clear early warnings of Hitler's final solution."


Auron devotes the major portion of his study to the fate of the Armenians and the Jews under Turkish rule during the twilight of the Ottoman Empire, from the beginning of the twentieth century, to the rebalancing of world power in the Middle East after World War I.


He proves that the Jews of the Yishuv were well aware they were next in line for a Turkish genocide. Indeed, during the spring of 1916 the order for expulsion of the Jews from Jaffa was a distinct possibility. The intervention of the U.S. and German consuls with the Turkish government in Jerusalem proved to be decisive in helping the Jews avoid the fate that befell the Armenians.


Ironically, it was Henry Morgenthau, a Jew and the American ambassador to Turkey during World War I, who became the first whistleblower in what he described as the murder of a nation. In September 1915 Morgenthau requested emergency aid from his government, and in the same year the American Committee for Armenian and Syrian Relief (ACASR) was established. In 1916, assistance efforts under the auspices of Congress were reorganized as the Near East Relief (NER), which collected and distributed substantial sums from private and government sources. Through these projects, tens of thousands of Armenians were saved. However, more were murdered than saved; according to Professor M.E. Stone, head of the Hebrew University Armenian Studies Program, the number of Armenians murdered by the Ottoman Empire totaled more than 1.5 million, virtually wiping out the Turkish-Armenian population.


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 1:38 PM EST Israel Hasbara Committee, NY II



By Mayaan Jaffe


Ambassador Morgenthau was also effective in rescuing Jews, saving leaders such as David Ben Gurion and Yitzhak Ben Tzvi, later prime minister and president of Israel, respectively. Both men were avidly pro-Turkish. Indeed Ben Gurion had tried to organize a Jewish corps in support of the Ottomans, but when his name appeared on a Zionist list he was jailed and charged with treason. On arriving in Alexandria he was jailed again by the British, and then evacuated to New York. In both instances, he was saved thanks to the intervention of Ambassador Morgenthau.


Auron argues that Ben Gurion knew of the murders and what the Turks capable of doing. Auron writes, "Whatever Ben Gurion's strategy may have been, he wrote privately to his father in 1919 that 'Jamal ***** [then Turkish military ruler in Palestine] planned from the outset to destroy the entire Hebrew settlement in Eretz Yisrael, exactly as they did the Armenians in Armenia.'"


The murder of the Armenian political, cultural and business leadership in Constantinople in April 1915 marked the beginning of full-scale genocide. One month prior, Ambassador Morgenthau made arrangements through his friend Josephus Daniels, Secretary of the Navy, to have the USS Tennessee evacuate a number of Jews from Palestine to refugee camps in Alexandria, Egypt. On the eve of World War I, there were some 85,000 Jews out of a population of 700,000 in the area of Palestine west of the Jordan River [modern day Israel]. Half of the Jews were part of the "Old Yishuv" and half were part of the "New Yishuv," immigrants who had arrived at the end of the nineteenth century and the beginning of the twentieth.


As noted, evidence suggests the Jews knew what was happening to the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire.


"The Yishuv knew about the fate of the Armenians and feared a similar fate," Auron writes.


Interestingly, it was Mordecai Ben-Hillel HaCohen, a Jewish journalist in the Yishuv and uncle of the late Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, who became the first publicist to report the chain of events affecting the Armenians of the Ottoman Empire. This was as early as 1916.


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 1:36 PM EST Israel Hasbara Committee, NY III



By Mayaan Jaffe



Likewise, the first book to document the plight of the Armenians, The Forty Days of Musa Dagh: Symbol and Parable, was also written by a Jew, Franz Werfel, and published in Germany in 1933. Translated into Yiddish and Hebrew, Franz Werfel's novel influenced Zionist youth movements in Palestine in the 1930s and the resistance movements to the Nazis throughout occupied Europe.


When Hitler's plans began to come to fruition, it was Morgenthau's son, Henry Morgenthau II, the treasury secretary under President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who became the only member of the American government during World War II to campaign for the creation of a World Refugee Board to save the remnants of European Jewry. He was always quoting the cables sent from his father, which warned of the Armenian genocide during his time.


Making the connection now


One might assume these parallels, especially those between the tragic events themselves, would lead the Jewish people to both identify with and recognize the Armenian Genocide. This is especially since the Armenian community has been in Jerusalem and the Holy Land since the fourth century (more than 1,700 years). However, this is not the case; as mentioned, Israel does not officially recognize the Armenian Genocide. But it is also not accurate to say the facts have gone unnoticed by everyone. Five years ago, for example, then-Israeli Minister of Education Yossi Sarid became one of the first Israelis to take a stance against denial of the Armenian Genocide when he participated in that year's memorial event. During his speech he said, "The Armenian Memorial Day should be a day of reflection and introspection for all of us, a day of soul-searching. On this day, we as Jews, victims of the Shoah [Holocaust], should examine our relationship to the pain of others. The massacre, which was carried out by the Turks against the Armenians in 1915 and 1916, was one of the most horrible acts in modern times..."


Sarid even recommended the state implement a new history curriculum that would include a central chapter on genocide, and within it, an open reference to the Armenian genocide. (Since Limor Livnat took over as education minister, this idea has been dismissed.)


While few other politicians have followed Sarid's lead, educated historians and professors such as Auron have for a long time taken a stand. As Director of the Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide in Jerusalem, Charney lectures regularly about the significance of Jewish recognition of other people's tragedies.


"Denying that there was an Armenian genocide, or any other genocide, is the same as someone saying there was no Holocaust of the Jewish people," he said.


During the aforementioned 2 May memorial event, Charney noted that there has been decisive progress against denials, but that there is still much work to be done.


Stone also has extensively written and lectured about the similarities between the atrocities committed against the Armenians by the Ottomans and those committed against the Jews by the Nazis. He said, "In my view they are the same sort of event. The Holocaust was simply 'bigger and better' because the Nazis had a much more organized state and much more advanced technology."


But Stone has taken it all a step further. It is through his work that the Armenian Studies Program has come alive in the last ten years; Stone plays a critical role in the education of Israel about the genocide, but also Armenian history, culture and art.


"It is vital that we not only focus on the horrible effect of genocide or the one-third of the Armenian people that were wiped out," said Stone, "but also focus on rejuvenating the culture and history that the Ottomans attempted to eradicate."


In his short but poignant remarks last Monday, Stone declared that his work in general, and the memorial event in particular, are not solely about remembering those needlessly murdered, but serve the purpose of creating positive results from evils that have occurred.


Echoing the Jewish message that as terrible as the pain could be, the happiness can be even greater, Stone said, "From evil, make good."


And that is what the Armenians plan to do...


by armenia33 March 1, 2010 1:34 PM EST Armenia now is in the drivers position regarding the protocols. Turkey has for years shaped the foreign policy in terms of the Armenian Genocide. That is coming to an end. Now the United States is pressuring Turkey to sign the protocols or else the Armenian Genocide Resolution will be voted on March 4. Turkey has always threatened the U.S. of the negative implications the passage of the Armenian Genocide would create. Now Turkey is crying like a little baby because they are not the favorite anymore. Stop being a baby and man up Like Germany did. The only country that actually likes Turkey is Azerbaijan.


by OttomanSultan March 1, 2010 1:44 PM EST Well, Armenians just show their real face. No facts, just political games. Actually, you made my day by prooving me the Armenian Genocide Resolution is not based on facts, but on political grounds. Bravo! Keep on!

by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 1:34 PM EST
WAITING FOR THE DENIAL TO END


Ha'aretz, Israel



By Dalia Shehori


How long will Turkey continue to deny the Armenian genocide, and why is Israel helping it?

On April 24, 1915, some 300 Armenian leaders - authors, intellectuals and professionals - were arrested in Constantinople, deported and eventually exterminated. On that day, 5,000 more Armenians were murdered in the capital of the Ottoman empire. In the following years, 1.5 million of the 2.5 million Armenians living in Turkey were liquidated.


Although the Turkish prime minister acknowledged recently the need to reexamine the issue, Turkey's official stand has not changed. It persists in stating that there was no genocide.


The denial angers the Armenians. Not only is it not true, they argue, but it does not enable them to grieve for the extermination of their people. As long as the Turks deny it, the Armenians say, we must devote all our resources to convince the world that genocide did take place in the years 1915-1918, and the Ottoman Empire and its heir, the Turkish government, bear the blame.


Every year, as April 24 approaches, the Turkish government tensely checks various parliaments in the world for resolutions recognizing the Armenian genocide. If such a decision is made, Turkey exerts steamroller pressure on the adopting state to change it.


Two years ago a member of the Armenian community in Israel, Naomi Nalbandian, was chosen to light a torch on Mount Herzl on Memorial Day as the representative of the rehabilitation ward of Hadassah Hospital on Mount Scopus. She was forced - following the Turkish government's insistent demand to the Foreign Ministry - to change the text she intended to read at the ceremony. Instead of "third generation of survivors of the Armenian holocaust, which took place in 1915" in the original text, Nalbandian presented herself as "daughter of the long-suffering Armenian nation." Incidentally, the use of the word "holocaust" in the Armenian context raises objections in another quarter - Yad Vashem and other Jewish organizations object to it, wishing to preserve the Holocaust as a unique term to mark the Nazi liquidation of the Jews.


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 1:32 PM EST WAITING FOR THE DENIAL TO END II


Ha'aretz, Israel April 17 2005


By Dalia Shehori



Expulsion and murder


The Turks' denial of the genocide is the focal point of a study day entitled "Genocide in the 20th century - 90 years to the Armenian genocide," held at Jerusalem's Van Leer Institute 10 days ago with the participation of Israeli and Armenian historians. One of the participants was Dr. Ara Sarafian, head of the Gomidas Institute in London, which promotes and disseminates research, scholarship and analysis of the modern Armenian experience. Sarafian brought books published last year at the institute's initiative about the Armenian genocide, including "Ambassador Morgenthau's Story," based on the diaries of Henry Morgenthau, the American ambassador to Turkey from 1913-1916. Another book was the memoirs of Abram I. Elkus, who succeeded Morgenthau in the years 1916 and 1917.


"Ambassador Morgenthau's Story" was first published in 1918, but Sarafian says, "We find ourselves having to prove that the genocide took place, so we published again a series of documents and memoirs. Quoting archival material is not enough. The denial will persist. Therefore it is necessary to publish memoirs, diaries, letters and documents systematically."


Sarafian preferred to focus on American documents because they are in English and accessible to all. The United States was not involved in World War II until April 1917; consequently Americans - consuls, missionaries and citizens - were present at various places where Armenians were murdered and briefed the State Department regularly. At the end of 1915 they served as the only authorized source of information in the Western world on the Armenian genocide.


Sarafian cites, for example, the reports of American consul Leslie Davis on the gathering, deportation and extermination of Armenians -men, women and children - in the Harput area in central Turkey. He says these deportations were systematic. "The state officials had a list of names. They would read out your name, put you in a caravan and deport you. Then came the reports about the murder of these people. Consul Davis personally investigated a few places where the murder was committed and reported to the State Department ... he described the valleys where the deportees were taken and murdered. He talks of thousands of people and says things like: `I knew there were several caravans in a certain valley, because the corpses were in various stages of rot.'"


Sarafian says that although all the murder victims' personal effects had been taken from them before their murder, Davis knew they were Armenian because their personal papers were found at the murder site.


Ambassador Morgenthau "was the first person to notice that what happened at Harput was happening in other places throughout the empire...if you read his diaries after April 1915, you will see that the word `Armenian' becomes the most commonly used noun. He was obsessive about this issue. As he related in a private letter to his son, Henry Morgenthau Jr., `Ottoman Armenians were like the people of Israel in captivity, though they did not have a Moses to lead them out of their predicament.' This is very moving. There is a place in our heart for Morgenthau as a righteous non-Armenian, who did much to save Armenians."


Morgenthau also wrote his son that the Turkish government was using the fact that there was a state of war to wipe out the Armenian people.


Together with the diaries of the American diplomats, Sarafian says there is no substitute for the testimonies of Armenian survivors "because they were there, they were the victims, and they are very articulate."


These testimonies are written in Armenian, and it is necessary to publish at least some of them in English to answer the skeptics who ask how Morgenthau could have known what was happening, if he was based in Constantinople. We must publish everything possible, says Sarafian, for "if we give the Turks a chance to get away not merely with the slaughter but with the denial - it would serve as a precedent for future denials ... it's very troubling that a state with a population of 60 million refuses to confront history and make the required concession to solve this issue once and for all."


by PhantomDis March 1, 2010 1:32 PM EST The Turkish Ambassador essentially admits that almost all Armenians were deported from Anatolia. However, he says that for this act to be considered Genocide, there had to have been intent on the part of the Ottoman government to kill the Armenians. He says there was no such intent.

The Armenians were driven mostly on foot en masse for hundreds of miles with no food, water or shelter. Their destination was the desert of Der Zor, a baren place. No provisions were made by the Ottoman authorities for sustaining life either on the marches or in Der Zor, and Der Zor by itself had no means to sustain life. There was no clean water, no food, and no shelter waiting for any Armenians who may have managed to live through the forced deportation marches. Did the Ottoman authorities have any doubt that the deportees would die either en route or in Der Zor once they got there? Do the current Turkish authorities believe that a video-taped admission is needed here to prove intent?

Today there are no Armenians living in Anatolia, which is the ancestral homeland of the Armenian people. Their churches, schools, and monastaries, which numbered in the thousands before 1915 have been directly and intentionally destroyed, are crumbling out of neglect, or have been converted to mosques, or other uses.

The Turkish people learn only one thing about the Armenians who lived there in the past: that they were back-stabbing, ungrateful citizens, and so they were deported. They learn nothing else about the Armenian people. They don't know that the very alphabet that they use today was created by an Armenian linguist, or that their most majestic palaces and mosques were designed and built by Armenian architects; or that Ataturk himself was saved from an assasination attempt by an Armenian. What's amazing is that they are just now learning, in horror, that many of them Armenian grandmothers and great-grandmothers. They are the little girls that were saved from the deportations either because of kindly Turkish neighbors that saved their lives, or because they were snatched by Turks along the deportation routes to essentially be enslaved in Turkish families. Either way, they were forced to relinquish their Armenian heritage and grow up muslim. There were thousands of such little girls, and their offspring is estimated in the high hundreds of thousands or low millions in Turkey today.

Thank you 60 Minutes for airing this program. It's an incredible and incredibly sad story that needs to be told.


by OttomanSultan March 1, 2010 1:41 PM EST
Your text above prooves there was no genocide, only a relocation of citizens who were in close collaboration with the enemy during wartime. All Armenians here see one side of the medallion. There is also the other side, where millions of Turks suffered from Russo-Armenian attrocities. So the Ottoman government was obliged to protect its citizens and they did by relocating the revolting Armenians. Sadly, and no Turk denies this, Armenians died because of this relocation. This by no means can be called genocide. This is a drastic measure in a drastic moment!

by gurun123 March 1, 2010 1:31 PM EST
AshNYC,

Since you are quoting stuff, I will quote some stuff for you:

The Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia (ASALA) was a Marxist-Leninist militant organization, that operated from 1975 to 1986. The Orly Airport attack was the 15 July 1983 bombing of a Turkish Airlines check-in counter at Orly Airport in Paris, France, by the Armenian militant organization ASALA as part of its campaign for the recognition of and reparations for the Armenian Genocide. The explosion killed eight people and injured 55.

French police detained 29-year old Varoujan Garabedian (Varadjian Garbidjian), a Syrian national of Armenian extraction, who confessed to planting the bomb at the airport.
In 2001, after 17 years in jail, Garabedian was released on the condition he was deported to Armenia. He was greeted by Prime Minister of Armenia Andranik Markarian, who expressed happiness at Garabedian's release.

Yes, I really wonder where they got the money from. It seems maybe they just won the California Lottery.

Nagorno-Karabakh is a landlocked region in the South Caucasus, lying between Lower Karabakh and Zangezur and covering the southeastern range of the Lesser Caucasus mountains.?The territory is internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan, which has not exercised power over most of the region since 1991.

The offensive provoked international rancor against the Armenian government, marking the first time Armenian forces had crossed the boundaries of the enclave itself and into Azerbaijan's territory. On April 30, the United Nations Security Council (UNSC) passed Resolution 822, co-sponsored by Turkey and Pakistan, affirming Nagorno-Karabakh as part of Azerbaijan's territorial integrity and demanding that Armenian forces withdraw from Kelbajar.

If Armenia invades its neighbors, yes we do have an issue with that.

You and I both know that although what happened during World War I is a sad chapter in history, no one in modern day Turkey were a part of the Ottoman army. I or anyone I know have any problems with Christians or Armenians. Bottom line is Armenia and Turkey need to move forward in peace as that is the only way to prosperity. As long as people like you keep provoking conflict from your cozy homes in New York City, the Armenians will keep on living on trash in the streets of Yerivan.


by Hrantwas March 1, 2010 1:58 PM EST
Turkish government was the one that gave birth to ASALA by deniying the GENOCIDE. At that time there was USSR. turks are still calling the Armenians `Gavuur` {Racial slurs} Abdullah ?atl?'s Neo-Fascist one of the worst types of terrorists one might think of. He brutally killed turkish students, children, was involved in drug trafficking, his Girlfreand a turk Beuty Quen; had connections with mafia, was a drug addict himself and still was a Turkish police agent.
## Foreigners and Journalists in turkish JAILS. Tourist Boycott anything from Turkey

by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 1:31 PM EST
WAITING FOR THE DENIAL TO END III


Ha'aretz, Israel
April 17 2005


By Dalia Shehori




Israel is still denying


Professor Yair Auon of the Open University, author of the recently published "The Banality of Denial: Israel and the Armenian Genocide," expressed disappointment that Israel, as a state that represents the Holocaust survivors and is supposed to be more sensitive than other countries to the suffering of other nations, does not recognize the Armenian genocide.


"Israel's approach to other nations' genocide, and especially the Armenian genocide, harms our struggle to make the Holocaust part of the collective memory of human society. While we help Turkey deny the genocide - and Israel has regrettably become Turkey's staunchest aide in its denial policy - we are in fact desecrating the Holocaust's memory," he says.


Auron and Yona Weitz, a Hebrew University anthropologist, quoted Shimon Peres' statements about the Armenian genocide. In 2001, when he was foreign minister, Peres told Turkish Daily News that, "It is a tragedy what the Armenians went through, but not a genocide." Auron said Peres' position reflects Israel's official stand today as well. He added that the Education Ministry has been saying since 1994 that the Armenian genocide would be taught in schools "this year or next year" but in the schoolbooks it is referred to as a "tragedy," "pogroms," "slaughter" - and not a genocide. Even university students hardly know anything about the Armenian genocide.


Auron spoke of Yossi Sarid's abortive effort to legitimize the Armenian genocide when he was education minister. Five years ago, on the 85th anniversary of the genocide, Sarid was invited to speak in the Armenian church in the Old City. Sarid affirmed the genocide and concluded his statement with a promise to include the Armenian genocide in Israel's secondary school history curriculum. But Ehud Barak's government hastened to express reservations about his statement and explain to the Turks that Sarid was merely expressing his own opinion.


Auron also criticized Israeli academia, noting that senior members of it deny that a genocide took place and even doubt the reliability of Morgenthau's diaries. "They use the Turkish denial literature as though it were the only literature dealing with the Armenian genocide, and on that basis they claim there is no evidence that Morgenthau's diaries are not forged," he said.


One of the Armenian genocide's prominent deniers is Islam researcher Professor Bernard Lewis. Lewis says the Armenians suffered terrible massacres, but these were not committed as a result of a deliberate, preconceived decision of the Ottoman government. In an interview with the American Web site Book TV, Lewis said about three years ago: "What happened to the Armenians was the result of a massive Armenian armed rebellion against the Turks, which began even before war broke out, and continued on a larger scale. Great numbers of Armenians, including members of the armed forces, deserted, crossed the frontier and joined the Russian forces invading Turkey. Armenian rebels actually seized the city of Van and held it for a while, intending to hand it over to the invaders. There was guerrilla warfare all over Anatolia."


He says there is proof that the Turkish government planned to deport the Armenians from the sensitive areas but "no evidence of a decision to massacre." On the contrary, there is evidence of an unsuccessful attempt to prevent it. He says appalling massacres were committed by irregular soldiers and local villagers, who were reacting to what had been done to them. Claiming that the numbers of Armenian dead are uncertain, he acknowledged that 1 million deaths were likely.


Historian Dr. Claude Mutafian of the University of Paris said Turkey is not willing to recognize the Armenian genocide because it was based on ethnic cleansing, not only of the Armenians, but also of other groups. Therefore it has been trying to rewrite history since Ataturk's days and claim that only Turks have lived in Turkey since the beginning of time. Today Turkey is fighting for this more intensely than ever because it wants to join the European Union, "and this provides us with a new weapon to force the Turks to accept history the way it was."


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 1:28 PM EST DESTRUCTION OF DOCUMENTS IMPORTANT PART OF TURKISH CULTURE


TANER AKCHAM: "PURGE OF ARCHIVES IS QUITE IMPORTANT ADMINISTRATIVE CULTURE" IN TURKEY"


The destruction of documents is "an important part of our culture," historian Taner Akcham, a representative of the progressive Turkish intelligentsia, writes in his large article concerning the purge of the Turkish archives. The article was published by the "Radical" newspaper in its Sunday appendix. In his article Akcham, at first, mentions the "Sabah" newspaper's publication from November 7 1918, where it is said that the government looked for the documents testifying about the massacre against the Armenians but couldn't find them. The newspaper's indicated article writes "Taleat ***** and his company, probably, before leaving authority, ordered to destruct all the documents witnessing about their giving directions on the massacre. Akcham emphasizes that it was right, as the indictment against "the Young Turks", which was heard in the Istanbul Court Martial of the State of Siege in May 1919, writes that the documents concerning the administrative center of the "Ittihat" party and so-called Teshkilat Mahsuse organization were "stolen". In this connection the Prosecutor said that Aziz Bei, the Chief of Security of the region, took away with himself a lot of documents before Taleat *****'s resignation and didn't return them. Then Taner Akcham cites numerous examples concerning the stealing and destruction of the documents and notices that during the "Ittihat's" power the following was written under all the instructions and documents concerning massacres: "Read and destruct after reading." Akcham mentions the self-defense of different officials in the courts, they reported that "they destructed the documents as they received such an order." In particular, Akcham sets as an example the 1919 action against Osman Nuri Effendi, the Deputy Director of the Chatalcha post office, who said: "I burned down all the documents in accordance with the received order. My chiefs ordered me to burn down the documents concerning the period of their power from such-and-such to such-and-such date and I did it.." The author of the article also sets other examples. According to the "Marmara" daily newspaper of Istanbul, at the end of the article the Turk historian notices: "As seen the destruction of documents is quite an important "administrative culture". For that reason some persons talk profusely with the quiet of those who know that the documents have already been destructed, that "nothing had happened with the Armenians, and all the documents are in their places." Perhaps, people of my generation will find some documents about their greats and promulgate them, arguing that beside those considering the destruction of documents as success, there are also such people that want to discover truth".


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 1:27 PM EST Turkey extends ban on alluding to genocide By Nicholas Birch in Istanbul


Irish Times



Turkey Turkey's new criminal code was supposed to be a crucial part of its efforts to bring itself in line with European norms. Instead, it stumbles from one controversy to another.


Last autumn, voices were raised over plans to criminalise adultery. The centre of attention now is an article that looks as if it sets the courts loose on anyone describing the 1915 mass expulsion of Ottoman Armenians as a "genocide".


Article 305's prescription of between three and 10-year prison sentences for individuals acting "against fundamental national interests" originally only affected Turkish citizens. Late on Tuesday, though, hours before a revised draft of the criminal code was due to be presented to Turkey's parliament, three MPs succeeded in extending its remit to include "foreigners in Turkey". "According to the legal changes we have made, those materially benefiting from claims that there was a genocide can be punished," Hasan Kara, one of the MPs tabling the motion, told reporters.


Heavily criticised for its vagueness, the draft article was originally published last autumn with notes explaining its possible uses. These included "making propaganda for the withdrawal of Turkish troops from Cyprus", or arguing "contrary to historical truths, that the Armenians suffered a genocide after the first World War".


The Armenian genocide issue usually drops off Turkey's agenda immediately after April 24th, the date that has come to mark the start of the 1915 massacres. That it is still there this year is largely due to the decision of a Swiss court last week to open an investigation into a Turkish historian accused of denying the Armenian genocide.


The case caused outrage in Turkey, even among the very few who openly describe 1915 as a genocide. Tuesday's last-minute legal changes are widely thought to have been an act of retaliation.


The historian in question, head of the government-funded Turkish Historical Foundation Yusuf Halacoglu, is a staunch defender of Turkey's official position on the events of 1915. Expelling Anatolian Armenians, he has argued, was a necessary response to their co-operation with enemies of the Ottoman Empire. And while most historians of the period estimate between 800,000 and one million people died, he insisted recently the total death toll could not have exceeded 100,000.


Punishing those who oppose the official line is not new in Turkey. The novelist Orhan Pamuk, who told a Swiss newspaper in February that "one million Armenians were killed in Turkey", is currently facing three separate charges under a notorious section of the old criminal code. Article 312 makes "provoking the people to hatred and animosity through the media" a criminal offence. The article was removed from the new code.


It remains to be seen whether Turkey's parliament will cave in now to internal and international pressure as it did over the adultery clause. If not, the perceptible broadening of freedom of speech in Turkey looks set to dwindle.


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 1:25 PM EST IMAM OF KARS DOES NOT ALLOW ARMENIAN TOURISTS TO LIGHT CANDLES IN CHURCH TURNED INTO MOSQUE


A number of Turkish newspapers ("Hurriet", "Milliet" and some others) reported on August 15 that the imam of the city of Kars did not allow a group of tourists from Armenia to light candles and hold a religious ceremony at the Church of Twelve Apostles turned into a mosque. The Armenian Apostolic Church was turned into a mosque in 1998 and called Qumpet Chamii. Imam Mehmed Altun prohibited the Armenian tourists from lighting candles or singing in the former church. According to the imam, such ceremonies are not allowed in a mosque, the newapaper "Marmara" wrote. Later the tourists intended to light candles in the garden of the former church, but this time some locals intervened, preventing them from doing so. The Armenian tourists had to interrupt their ceremony and leave.


by OttomanSultan March 1, 2010 1:24 PM EST THE DREAM OF ?A GREATER ARMENIA?

The ? Great Armenia ? has been put forward b the Armenian President Levon Ter ? Petrosyan. The past and the ideas of Ter ? Petrosyan, who was born in Aleppo, is based on the principles of the Armenian Communist Party, which was the only political party at the time of USSR / CCCP period. (1)

Ter ? Petrosyan is the chief organiser who has flamed the Nagorno Karabakh matter and the demonstrations that were intensified from 1987 onwards in Armenia. The ? Nagorno Karabakh Committee ? which was founded by him in February 1988, for the connecting of Nagorno Karabakh to Armenia after it is separated from Azerbaijan, has changed its name as ? Armenian National Movement ? in November 1989.

After he won the elections, and within the process of becoming a party, Ter ? Petrosyan, who collected the majority of the votes, and who was elected as the President Armenian Supreme Soviet on August 1990, has declared the independence of Armenia on August 4, 1990. Armenia has signed the Alma ? Ata (Almat?) Declaration on December 21, 1991 and then became a member of AG?K (AG?T) and United Nations.

In the same period, Armenia has violated the international agreements, its own commitments, Helsinki and AG?T principles and actually invaded the Nagorno Karabakh, which is an autonomous region connected to the Republic of Azerbaijan. Armenia has applied a clear genocide against the Azerbaijani people here, apart from invading. (2)

Ter ? Petrosyan, in his first speech in the 1990 elections, has made the call for the recognition of so-called genocide of 1915 to the international organisations. (3)

Ter ? Petrosyan visited US President Bill Clinton on August 8, 1994 in The White House. The members of the Armenian Church, Priest Rafael Andonyan, Chief Bishop Mesrob A???yan, Chief Bishop Hayag Barsamyan and Chief Bishop Vahe Hovsepyan were present among those who participated the meeting along with the Ta?nak Party leaders. Here the weighted subjects that were discussed, were the difficulties shown to Armenia by Turkey and Azerbaijan, and the recognition of the so ? called Armenian genocide. (4)

The Clinton visit of Ter ? Petrosyan was attracting attention. Because, such kind of a meeting; was made for the first time within the last 10 years; by an US President. Apart from this, the discussing of the so ? called genocide in between a President of USA and Armenian leaders has been evaluated as a new situation.


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 1:24 PM EST Death Threats Stalks Turkish Author of April 24 Article in Nevada Acknowledging 1915 Genocide


By Serge L. Samoniantz California Courier Editor


LAS VEGAS - Selcuk Tezgul, a native of Turkey residing in Las Vegas, is now living under the shadow of death threats from fellow Turks after authoring an article in the April 24 issue of the Las Vegas Review-Journal, where he decried the Turkish government's silence over the 1915 genocide, and called for an official acknowledgment of their ancestor's biggest crime ever. Tezgul told The California Courier that he wished to make a favor to the Armenian people by writing the truthful article, and was not expecting this flood of negative reaction from some of his closest friends and associates. A storm of phone calls, some originating from Turkey itself, have threatened to burn down his house, and get rid of him. His own business partner, he said, swore at him on the phone and threatened to kill him with his own bare hands for writing such an article. They are reluctant to acknowledge reality, Tezgul surmised. The souls of 1.5 million Armenian victims are, after 81 years, still longing for acknowledgment and an apology from Turkey, his April 24 article begins. After describing an encounter with an Armenian elderly couple at his Las Vegas shop where I felt shame and pain because of my Turkish identity, Tezgul goes on to explain that he is not one of the 60 million Turks who was cheated for decades by his own government's chauvinistic, illogical, unfair and nonsensical official state ideology and history. On the contrary...I am one of the handful of Turks who is aware of that horrible genocide and acknowledges too, Tezgul readily admits. I've never trusted and believed in the official history and ideology of my country, he adds, and when I researched and studied the reliable and honest foreign historians, I came face to face with the blood-chilling truth. In addition, I've listened to the chilling details of the massacres from the mouths of the living Turkish witnesses, he continued. And today, I'm still hated by my own relatives and friends because of my acknowledgment of the genocide. Unfortunately, their brains are washed by the lies and suppression of the truth by the Turkish government and army. Tezgul writes that the agriculturist Armenians had settled in Asia Minor almost two millennia before the Turks invaded the region. The Armenians' home country is still occupied by the Turks today, he wrote. Observing that the agriculturist Armenians had built a rather advanced civilization, especially famous for accomplishments in architecture and art. They were an honest, lovely, noble, humanistic, and peaceful people, Tezgul write flatteringly. On the other side, the Turks were a pastoralist, nomadic, quarrelsome, totalitarian people, without artistic and architectural talents like the other nomadic tribes of Central Asia, the Turkish author harshly notes. He goes on to explain that the Ottoman Empire collapsed at the end of World War I, but not before it had blamed its Eastern Front defeats on the Armenians and began its genocide.


by armenia33 March 1, 2010 1:23 PM EST
If you take the time to read books not published in Turkey, then you would see this information. We want justice for Armenians, Kurdish, Greek, Dar fur and all of humanity.


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 1:23 PM EST
Death Threats Stalks Turkish Author of April 24 Article in Nevada II
Acknowledging 1915 Genocide


By Serge L. Samoniantz
California Courier Editor

It was planned entirely by Turkish statesmen and leaders and was carried out by Turkish soldiers -- sadly even by the Armenians' Turkish neighbors, Tezgul wrote. That horrible genocide has never been forgotten, must never be forgotten, and will never be forgotten, he asserts. Alas, still today the Turkish government and its leaders are deaf and dumb, and they remain silent about their country's bloody past. They are still denying history's clear and solid truths. Its 60 million people are still not completely aware of the genocide committed by their ancestors, because of the official state policy to suppress history. Of course, grandchildren should not be judged responsible for their grandparents' crimes, but the grandchildren should not endorse their ancestors' brutality either. History is waiting for that honest, dignified, fair and noble Turkish leader who will acknowledge his ancestors' biggest crime ever, who will apologize to the Armenian people, and who will do his best to indemnify them, materially and morally, in the eyes of the entire world. Besides the threatening phone calls which brand him a traitor, Tezgul said, his own close friends have now shunned him because of the lengthy article. This is disturbing me emotionally, he frankly acknowledged. A graduate of Istanbul's Bosphorus University, Tezgul came to the United States 15 months ago on a B-2 visa. Seeking freedom and new opportunities in these shores, he invested $50,000 - his life savings - in a gift shop in Las Vegas, which he operates jointly with a partner, Nevzet Baguis. That investment is in jeopardy now, because of the article he wrote, he said. Furthermore, his visa is due for renewal because of the nature of the business investment. But, now with his life in danger, he does not dare to go to the store, where his wife works. In addition, his legal status in the U.S. is at risk, unless his visa is renewed or upgraded. Extremely reluctant to talk to The Courier, Tezgul, in a very subdued voice, nonetheless asked that this story not be taken further, and wished that the matter would settle down quickly. I am sure the Turkish authorities in the United States have already faxed these details to Ankara, he said. I will probably need a new identity and new passport if I wish to return to Turkey, he said, understandably not too thrilled at the prospect. As of May 6, he had not yet notified the FBI about the nature of the phone calls and threats he had received, but the federal agency was aware of the reason for Tezgul's distress. Plans were not yet in place to begin an investigation, according to Las Vegas FBI office spokesperson Debbie Calhoun. She suggested that Tezgul contact the local authorities and tell them of his concerns. Tezgul told The Courier he had received sympathetic calls from Las Vegas Armenians congratulating him for his courage, but he was more interested in putting this matter behind him, and resume a normal life. Unfortunately, history shows us that honest, dignified, fair and noble Turks are not given much rest by their own. The novelty of speaking the truth -- even if it exposes one's own myths -- is still equated in too many cultures as comforting the enemy, rather than freeing future generations of Armenians and Turks of the burden of the past. On a personal level, Tezgul's attempt to make a favor to the Armenians has perhaps backfired. But, whether the Turks like it or not, in the long run, his is the shot heard round the world.



by aybike111 March 1, 2010 1:22 PM EST A historian first discovers what actually happened, then tries to explain the reasons. An ideologue forgets the process of discovery. He assumes that what he believes is correct, then constructs a theory to explain it. He first accepts completely the beliefs of the Armenian nationalists. He then constructs an elaborate sociological theory, claiming that genocide was the result of Turkish history and the Turkish character. This sort of analysis is like a house built on a foundation of sand. The house looks good, but the first strong wind knocks it down. In this case, the strong wind that destroys the theory is the force of the truth.

A historian knows that one has to look back in history, sometimes far back in history, to find the causes of events. An ideologue does not bother. Again, he may be afraid of what he will find. Reading the Armenian Nationalists one would assume that the Armenian Question began in 1894. Very seldom does one find in their work mention of Armenian alliances with the Russians against the Turks stretching back to the eighteenth century. One never finds recognition that it was the Russians and the Armenians themselves who began to dissolve 700 years of peace between Turks and Armenians. These are important matters for the historian, but they hurt the cause of the ideologue.

The historian studies. The ideologue wages a political war. From the start the Armenian Question has been a political campaign. Materials that have been used to write the long-accepted and false history of the Armenian Question were written as political documents. They were written for political effect. Whether they were articles in the Dashnak newspaper or false documents produced by the British Propaganda Office, they were propaganda, not sources of accurate history. Historians have examined and rejected all these so-called "historical sources." Yet the same falsehoods continually appear as "proof" that there was an Armenian Genocide. The lies have existed for so long, the lies have been repeated so many times, that those who do not know the real history assume that the lies are true.There is a series of military histories that accurately portray the events of the Ottoman wars and the Turkish War of Independence--the histories published by the Turkish General Staff--many volumes, filled with great detail, many maps, and descriptions of Ottoman plans and actions. These books are based on the reports of the Ottoman soldiers themselves, not only on the reports of the Ottoman enemies. They should be read by every historian of World War I.

And there must be many more accurate and honest books on Turkey for teachers and students in Europe and America. Only by telling the truth to youth can the prejudices against Turks be finally ended. We have made a start. The Istanbul Chambers of Commerce have financed the first detailed book on Turkey for American teachers. Many more books are needed. Finally, I wish to comment on current politics. Some may feel that I should not do so. I am not a Turk, and this is surely a Turkish problem. Nor am I a political scientist or a politician. I am a historian. I am speaking on this problem because it is basically a historical question. As a historian, I am infuriated when any group, or any country, is ordered to lie about its history. The political problem I am speaking of is the growing cry from Europe that Turkey must admit the "Armenian Genocide" before it can enter the European Union.

I am angry that anyone can believe that accepting a lie about Turkish history will somehow be a benefit to Europe or to Turkey. I know, and I believe you know, that it will make matters much worse.

I have faith in the honor of the Turks. What I know of the Turks tells me that they will never falsely say there was an Armenian Genocide. I have faith in the honesty of the Turks. I know that the Turks will resist demands to confess to a crime they did not commit, no matter the price of honesty. I have faith in the integrity of the Turks. I know that the Turks will not lie about this history. I know that the Turks will never say their fathers were murderers. I have that faith in the Turks."


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 1:21 PM EST SONS OF THE ARMENIAN NATION WHO "TURNED INTO" KURDS AND TURKS


It was a taboo till recently to write of the Armenians who were forcibly turned into Turks and Kurds during the Ottoman reign. Most of them, living today in Western Europe, Western Armenia and Cilicia (modern-day Turkey), are going through a revival of national identification. After the Armenians of Hamshen, those from Sassoon, Mush and Taron, who were forcibly converted into Islam, are especially easy to talk with about their past and present. They try to return to the bosom of their nation by overcoming their "guise", the names and surnames, and to fight for their rights and to recover the historic legacy of their forefathers massacred by the Turks.


One can meet those Armenians returning to their roots in Germany as well as in Armenia especially after the war in Iraq and the vents at the Turkish border. Some "Kurdish" Armenians fought in the ranks of the


PKK (Kurdish Workers' Party) and got disappointed after Ojalan's capture and left for Germany where they could find a wide field for political and national activity. They settled in Frankfurt, Wiesbaden, Stuttgart, Mainz and elsewhere.


"I was born in Karmir Khach (Kzl Akhach) village of Taron. We shunned the Armenian Genocide as we accepted Islam feigningly and were Kurdish-speaking. My father and brother enrolled in the PKK to fight against Turkish fascism, they were imprisoned and tortured numerous times. I've been studying and working here in Germany for a long time and am in touch with the Armenian community and the progressive forces.


But in Western Armenia, especially in originally Armenian Vardo town, which was stricken by an earthquake in 60s and where my relatives live,


human rights violations are rampant", Simon Kostanian (Sardet Kosdun), who regained his Armenian identity today, tells.


Razmik Hakobian (Nureddin Yagub) from one of Cilicia villages was a PKK


warrior but was arrested and jailed in one of Ankara's horrific prisons. He is a writer and a film director who is planning to shoot a film about the life of Diaspora Armenians.


"My parents concealed our identity particularly because being an Armenian was an unforgettable affront in Adiamani where I am coming from. Despite this, many "Kurdish" and "Turkish" Armenians were called "gyavur". The film I am trying to shoot is about an Armenian outcast and also is an odyssey of a Western Armenians who survived the Genocide. I shall realize my plans if I find necessary support in Armenia and by the help of our confederates in Western Europe", Razmik tells.


The number of Armenians, who only now discover their identity, above all in Sassoon and Mush, amounts to thousands.


"There are around 1000 Armenians in Mush. The Turkish government has forgotten us for a while, as there are the Kurds to deal with. The sons


of the Kurdish people say sorry for their fathers' deeds who were killing Armenians together with the Turks", Armen from Mush says.


by aybike111 March 1, 2010 1:21 PM EST The Armenians of the Ottoman East rebelled in exactly those areas that were most important to the Russians. The benefit of the rebellion in Van City, the center of Ottoman Administration in the Southeast is obvious. The other sites of rebellion were in reality more important: Rebellion in Erzurum Province cut the Ottoman Army off from supplies and communications. The rebellion was directly in the path of the Russian advance from the North. The Armenians rebelled in the Saray and Baskale regions, at the two major passes that the Russians were to use in their invasion from Iran. The Armenians rebelled in the region near Catak, at the mountain passes needed for the Ottomans to bring up troops to the Iran frontier, the passes needed for the Ottoman retreat. The Armenians rebelled in great numbers in Sivas Province and in Sebinkarahisar. This would seem to be an odd place for a revolt, a region where the Armenians were outnumbered by the Muslims ten to one, but Sivas was tactically important. It was the railhead from which all supplies and men passed to the Front, basically along one road. It was the prefect site for guerilla action to harass Ottoman supply lines. The Armenians also rebelled in Cilicia, the intended site for a British invasion that would have cut the rail links to the South. It was not the fault of the rebels that the British preferred to attempt the madness at Gallipoli instead of an attack in Cilicia that would surely have been more successful.

All these regions were the very spots a military planner would choose to most damage the Ottoman war effort. It cannot be an accident that they were also the spots chosen by the rebels for their revolt. Anyone can see that the revolts were a disaster for the Army. The disaster was compounded by the fact that the Ottomans were forced to withdraw whole divisions from the Front to battle the Armenian rebels. The war might have been much different if these divisions had been able to fight the Russians, not the rebels. I agree with Field-Marshall Pomiankowski, who was the only real European historian of World War I in the Ottoman Empire, that the Armenian rebellion was the key to the Ottoman defeat in the East.

Only after seven months of Armenian rebellion did the Ottomans order the deportation of Armenians (May 26-30, 1915).

The Ottoman Record

How do we know that this analysis is true? It is, after all, very different than what is usually called the history of the Armenians. We know it is true because it is the product of reasoned historical analysis, not ideology.

To understand this, we must consider the difference between history and ideology, the difference between scientific analysis and nationalist belief, the difference between the proper historian and the ideologue. To the historian what matters is the attempt to find the objective truth. To the nationalist ideologue what matters is the triumph of his cause. A PROPER HISTORIAN FIRST SEARCHES FOR EVIDENCE, THEN MAKE UP HIS MIND. AN IDEOLOGUE FIRST MAKES UP HIS MIND, THEN LOOKS FOR THE EVIDENCE.


A historian looks for historical context. In particular, he judges the reliability of witnesses. He judges if those who gave reports had reason to lie. An ideologue takes evidence wherever he can find it, and may invent the evidence he cannot find. He does not look too closely at the evidence, perhaps because he is afraid of what he will find. As an example, the ideologues contend that the trials of Ottoman leaders after World War I prove that the Turks were guilty of genocide. They do not mention that the so-called trials reached their verdicts when the British controlled Istanbul. They do not mention that the courts were in the hands of the Quisling Damad Ferid Pasa government, which had a long record of lying about its enemies, the Committee of Union and Progress. They do not mention that Damad Ferid would do anything to please the British and keep his job. They do not mention that the British, more honest than their lackeys, admitted that they could not find evidence of any "genocide." They do not mention that the defendants were not represented by their own lawyers. They do not mention that crimes against Armenians were only a small part of a long list of so-called crimes, everything the judges could invent. The ideologues do not mention that the courts should best be compared to those convened by Josef Stalin. The ideologues do not mention this evidence.


by aybike111 March 1, 2010 1:22 PM EST A historian first discovers what actually happened, then tries to explain the reasons. An ideologue forgets the process of discovery. He assumes that what he believes is correct, then constructs a theory to explain it. He first accepts completely the beliefs of the Armenian nationalists. He then constructs an elaborate sociological theory, claiming that genocide was the result of Turkish history and the Turkish character. This sort of analysis is like a house built on a foundation of sand. The house looks good, but the first strong wind knocks it down. In this case, the strong wind that destroys the theory is the force of the truth.

A historian knows that one has to look back in history, sometimes far back in history, to find the causes of events. An ideologue does not bother. Again, he may be afraid of what he will find. Reading the Armenian Nationalists one would assume that the Armenian Question began in 1894. Very seldom does one find in their work mention of Armenian alliances with the Russians against the Turks stretching back to the eighteenth century. One never finds recognition that it was the Russians and the Armenians themselves who began to dissolve 700 years of peace between Turks and Armenians. These are important matters for the historian, but they hurt the cause of the ideologue.

The historian studies. The ideologue wages a political war. From the start the Armenian Question has been a political campaign. Materials that have been used to write the long-accepted and false history of the Armenian Question were written as political documents. They were written for political effect. Whether they were articles in the Dashnak newspaper or false documents produced by the British Propaganda Office, they were propaganda, not sources of accurate history. Historians have examined and rejected all these so-called "historical sources." Yet the same falsehoods continually appear as "proof" that there was an Armenian Genocide. The lies have existed for so long, the lies have been repeated so many times, that those who do not know the real history assume that the lies are true.There is a series of military histories that accurately portray the events of the Ottoman wars and the Turkish War of Independence--the histories published by the Turkish General Staff--many volumes, filled with great detail, many maps, and descriptions of Ottoman plans and actions. These books are based on the reports of the Ottoman soldiers themselves, not only on the reports of the Ottoman enemies. They should be read by every historian of World War I.

And there must be many more accurate and honest books on Turkey for teachers and students in Europe and America. Only by telling the truth to youth can the prejudices against Turks be finally ended. We have made a start. The Istanbul Chambers of Commerce have financed the first detailed book on Turkey for American teachers. Many more books are needed. Finally, I wish to comment on current politics. Some may feel that I should not do so. I am not a Turk, and this is surely a Turkish problem. Nor am I a political scientist or a politician. I am a historian. I am speaking on this problem because it is basically a historical question. As a historian, I am infuriated when any group, or any country, is ordered to lie about its history. The political problem I am speaking of is the growing cry from Europe that Turkey must admit the "Armenian Genocide" before it can enter the European Union.

I am angry that anyone can believe that accepting a lie about Turkish history will somehow be a benefit to Europe or to Turkey. I know, and I believe you know, that it will make matters much worse.

I have faith in the honor of the Turks. What I know of the Turks tells me that they will never falsely say there was an Armenian Genocide. I have faith in the honesty of the Turks. I know that the Turks will resist demands to confess to a crime they did not commit, no matter the price of honesty. I have faith in the integrity of the Turks. I know that the Turks will not lie about this history. I know that the Turks will never say their fathers were murderers. I have that faith in the Turks."

by armenia33 March 1, 2010 1:21 PM EST Then I guess Turkey has ran out of money then. The Turkish government pays millions of dollars to Jewish lobbyists to block the Armenian Genocide bill, but that's alright. The double standard is coming to an end Turkey.


by aybike111 March 1, 2010 1:20 PM EST WAR

The Russians gave 2.4 million rubles to the Dashnaks to arm the Ottoman Armenians. They began distributing weapons to Armenians in the Caucasus and Iran in September of 1914. In that month, seven months before the Deportations were ordered, Armenian attacks on Ottoman soldiers and officials began. Deserters from the Ottoman Army at first formed into what officials called "bandit gangs." They attacked conscription officers, tax collectors, gendarmerie outposts, and Muslims on the roads. By December a general revolt had erupted in Van Province. Roads and telegraph lines were cut, gendarmerie outposts attacked, and Muslim villages burned, their inhabitants killed. The revolt soon grew: in December, near the Kotur Pass, which the Ottomans had to hold to defend against Russian invasion from Iran, a large Armenian battle group defeated units of the Ottoman army, killing 400 Ottoman soldiers and forcing the army to retreat to Saray. The attacks were not only in Van: The governor of Erzurum, Tahsin, cabled that he could not hold off the Armenian attacks that were breaking out through the province; soldiers would have to be sent from the front.

By February, reports of attacks began to come in from all over the East-a two-hour battle near Mus, an eight-hour battle in Abaak, 1,000 Armenians attacking near Timar, Armenian chettes raiding in Sivas, Erzurum, Adana, Diyarbakir, Bitlis, and Van provinces. Telegraph lines to the front and from Ottoman cities to the West were cut, repaired, and cut again many times. Supply caravans to the army were attacked, as were columns of wounded soldiers. Units of gendarmerie and soldiers sent to reconnect telegraph lines or protect supply columns themselves came under attack. As an example of the enormity of the problem, in the middle of April an entire division of gendarmerie troops was ordered from Hakkari to Catak to battle a major uprising there, but the division could not fight through the Armenian defenses.

Once careful preparations had been made, Armenians revolted in the City of Van. On April 20, well-armed Armenian units, many wearing military uniforms, took the city and drove Ottoman forces into the citadel. The rebels burned down most of the city, some buildings also being destroyed by the two canons the Ottomans had in the citadel. Troops were sent from the Erzurum and Iranian Fronts, but they were unable to relieve the city. The Russians and Armenians were advancing from the north and the southwest. On May 17 the Ottomans evacuated the citadel. Soldiers and civilians fought their way southwest around Lake Van. Some took to boats on the Lake, but nearly half of these were killed by rebels firing from the shore or when their boats ran aground. Some of the Muslims of Van survived at least for a while, most who did not escape were killed. Villagers were either killed in their homes or collected from surrounding areas and sent into the great massacre at Zeve.

The ensuing suffering of the Muslims and Armenians is well known. It was a history of bloody warfare between peoples in which all died in great numbers. When the Ottomans retook much of the East, the Armenian population fled to Russia. There they starved and died of disease. When the Russians retook Van and Bitlis Provinces, they did not allow the Armenians to return, leaving them to starve in the North. The Russians wanted the land for themselves. It is also well known that Armenians who remained, those in Erzurum Province, massacred Muslims in great numbers at the end of the war.

My purpose here is not to retell that history. I wish to demonstrate that the Ottomans were right in considering the Armenians to be their enemies, if further proof is needed. The map shows proof that the Armenian rebels in fact were agents of Russia.


by aybike111 March 1, 2010 1:21 PM EST The Armenians of the Ottoman East rebelled in exactly those areas that were most important to the Russians. The benefit of the rebellion in Van City, the center of Ottoman Administration in the Southeast is obvious. The other sites of rebellion were in reality more important: Rebellion in Erzurum Province cut the Ottoman Army off from supplies and communications. The rebellion was directly in the path of the Russian advance from the North. The Armenians rebelled in the Saray and Baskale regions, at the two major passes that the Russians were to use in their invasion from Iran. The Armenians rebelled in the region near Catak, at the mountain passes needed for the Ottomans to bring up troops to the Iran frontier, the passes needed for the Ottoman retreat. The Armenians rebelled in great numbers in Sivas Province and in Sebinkarahisar. This would seem to be an odd place for a revolt, a region where the Armenians were outnumbered by the Muslims ten to one, but Sivas was tactically important. It was the railhead from which all supplies and men passed to the Front, basically along one road. It was the prefect site for guerilla action to harass Ottoman supply lines. The Armenians also rebelled in Cilicia, the intended site for a British invasion that would have cut the rail links to the South. It was not the fault of the rebels that the British preferred to attempt the madness at Gallipoli instead of an attack in Cilicia that would surely have been more successful.

All these regions were the very spots a military planner would choose to most damage the Ottoman war effort. It cannot be an accident that they were also the spots chosen by the rebels for their revolt. Anyone can see that the revolts were a disaster for the Army. The disaster was compounded by the fact that the Ottomans were forced to withdraw whole divisions from the Front to battle the Armenian rebels. The war might have been much different if these divisions had been able to fight the Russians, not the rebels. I agree with Field-Marshall Pomiankowski, who was the only real European historian of World War I in the Ottoman Empire, that the Armenian rebellion was the key to the Ottoman defeat in the East.

Only after seven months of Armenian rebellion did the Ottomans order the deportation of Armenians (May 26-30, 1915).

The Ottoman Record

How do we know that this analysis is true? It is, after all, very different than what is usually called the history of the Armenians. We know it is true because it is the product of reasoned historical analysis, not ideology.

To understand this, we must consider the difference between history and ideology, the difference between scientific analysis and nationalist belief, the difference between the proper historian and the ideologue. To the historian what matters is the attempt to find the objective truth. To the nationalist ideologue what matters is the triumph of his cause. A PROPER HISTORIAN FIRST SEARCHES FOR EVIDENCE, THEN MAKE UP HIS MIND. AN IDEOLOGUE FIRST MAKES UP HIS MIND, THEN LOOKS FOR THE EVIDENCE.


A historian looks for historical context. In particular, he judges the reliability of witnesses. He judges if those who gave reports had reason to lie. An ideologue takes evidence wherever he can find it, and may invent the evidence he cannot find. He does not look too closely at the evidence, perhaps because he is afraid of what he will find. As an example, the ideologues contend that the trials of Ottoman leaders after World War I prove that the Turks were guilty of genocide. They do not mention that the so-called trials reached their verdicts when the British controlled Istanbul. They do not mention that the courts were in the hands of the Quisling Damad Ferid Pasa government, which had a long record of lying about its enemies, the Committee of Union and Progress. They do not mention that Damad Ferid would do anything to please the British and keep his job. They do not mention that the British, more honest than their lackeys, admitted that they could not find evidence of any "genocide." They do not mention that the defendants were not represented by their own lawyers. They do not mention that crimes against Armenians were only a small part of a long list of so-called crimes, everything the judges could invent. The ideologues do not mention that the courts should best be compared to those convened by Josef Stalin. The ideologues do not mention this evidence.

by aybike111 March 1, 2010 1:20 PM EST DESERTION ZONE

As World War I threatened and the Ottoman Army mobilized, Armenians who should have served their country instead took the side of the Russians. The Ottoman Army reported: "From Armenians with conscription obligations those in towns and villages East of the Hopa-Erzurum-Hinis-Van line did not comply with the call to enlist but have proceeded East to the border to join the organization in Russia." The effect of this is obvious: If the young Armenian males of the "zone of desertion" had served in the Army, they would have provided more than 50,000 troops. If they had served, there might never have been a Sarikamis defeat.

The Armenians from Hopa to Erzurum to Hinis to Van were not the only Armenians who did not serve. The 10s of thousands of Armenians of Sivas who formed chette bands did not serve. The rebels in Zeytun and elsewhere in Cilicia did not serve. The Armenians who fled to the Greek islands or to Egypt or Cyprus did not serve. More precisely, many of these Armenian young men did serve, but they served in the armies of the Ottomans' enemies. They did not protect their homeland, they attacked it.

In Eastern Anatolia, Armenians formed bands to fight a guerilla war against their government. Others fled only to return with the Russian Army, serving as scouts and advance units for the Russian invaders. It was those who stayed behind who were the greatest danger to the Ottoman war effort and the greatest danger to the lives of the Muslims of Eastern Anatolia.

It has often been alleged by Armenian nationalists that the Ottoman order to deport Armenians was not caused by Armenian rebellion. As evidence, they note the fact that the law of deportation was published in May of 1915, at approximately the same time that the Armenians seized the City of Van. According to this logic, the Ottomans must have planned the deportation some time before that date, so the rebellion could not have been the cause of the deportations. It is true that the Ottomans began to consider the possibility of deportation a few months before May, 1915. What is not true is that May, 1915 was the start of the Armenian rebellion. It had started long before.

European observers knew long before 1914 that Armenians would join the Russian side in event of war. As early as 1908, British consul Dickson had reported:

The Armenian revolutionaries in Van and Salmas [in Iran] have been informed by their Committee in Tiflis that in the event of war they will side with the Russians against Turkey. Unaided by the Russians, they could mobilize about 3,500 armed sharpshooters to harass the Turks about the frontier, and their lines of communication.[4]

British diplomatic sources reported that in preparation for war, in 1913, the Armenian revolutionary groups met and agreed to coordinate their efforts against the Ottomans. The British reported that this alliance was the result of meetings with "the Russian authorities." The Dashnak leader (and member of the Ottoman Parliament) Vramian had gone to Tiflis to confer with the Russian authorities. The British also reported that "[The Armenians] have thrown off any pretence of loyalty they may once have shown, and openly welcome the prospect of a Russian occupation of the Armenian Vilayets." [5]

Even Dashnak leaders admitted the Dashnaks were Russian allies. The Dashnak Hovhannes Katchaznouni, prime minister of the Armenian Republic, stated that the party plan at the beginning of the war was to ally with the Russians.

Since 1910 the revolutionaries had distributed a pamphlet throughout Eastern Anatolia. It demonstrated how Armenian villages were to be organized into regional commands, how Muslim villages were to be attacked, and specifics of guerilla warfare.

Before the war began, Ottoman Army Intelligence reported on Dashnak plans: They would declare their loyalty to the Ottoman State, but increase their arming of their supporters. If war was declared, Armenian soldiers would desert to the Russian Army with their arms. The Armenians would do nothing if the Ottomans began to defeat the Russians. If the Ottomans began to retreat, the Armenians would form armed guerilla bands and attack according to plan. The Ottoman intelligence reports were correct, for that is exactly what happened.


by aybike111 March 1, 2010 1:20 PM EST WAR

The Russians gave 2.4 million rubles to the Dashnaks to arm the Ottoman Armenians. They began distributing weapons to Armenians in the Caucasus and Iran in September of 1914. In that month, seven months before the Deportations were ordered, Armenian attacks on Ottoman soldiers and officials began. Deserters from the Ottoman Army at first formed into what officials called "bandit gangs." They attacked conscription officers, tax collectors, gendarmerie outposts, and Muslims on the roads. By December a general revolt had erupted in Van Province. Roads and telegraph lines were cut, gendarmerie outposts attacked, and Muslim villages burned, their inhabitants killed. The revolt soon grew: in December, near the Kotur Pass, which the Ottomans had to hold to defend against Russian invasion from Iran, a large Armenian battle group defeated units of the Ottoman army, killing 400 Ottoman soldiers and forcing the army to retreat to Saray. The attacks were not only in Van: The governor of Erzurum, Tahsin, cabled that he could not hold off the Armenian attacks that were breaking out through the province; soldiers would have to be sent from the front.

By February, reports of attacks began to come in from all over the East-a two-hour battle near Mus, an eight-hour battle in Abaak, 1,000 Armenians attacking near Timar, Armenian chettes raiding in Sivas, Erzurum, Adana, Diyarbakir, Bitlis, and Van provinces. Telegraph lines to the front and from Ottoman cities to the West were cut, repaired, and cut again many times. Supply caravans to the army were attacked, as were columns of wounded soldiers. Units of gendarmerie and soldiers sent to reconnect telegraph lines or protect supply columns themselves came under attack. As an example of the enormity of the problem, in the middle of April an entire division of gendarmerie troops was ordered from Hakkari to Catak to battle a major uprising there, but the division could not fight through the Armenian defenses.

Once careful preparations had been made, Armenians revolted in the City of Van. On April 20, well-armed Armenian units, many wearing military uniforms, took the city and drove Ottoman forces into the citadel. The rebels burned down most of the city, some buildings also being destroyed by the two canons the Ottomans had in the citadel. Troops were sent from the Erzurum and Iranian Fronts, but they were unable to relieve the city. The Russians and Armenians were advancing from the north and the southwest. On May 17 the Ottomans evacuated the citadel. Soldiers and civilians fought their way southwest around Lake Van. Some took to boats on the Lake, but nearly half of these were killed by rebels firing from the shore or when their boats ran aground. Some of the Muslims of Van survived at least for a while, most who did not escape were killed. Villagers were either killed in their homes or collected from surrounding areas and sent into the great massacre at Zeve.

The ensuing suffering of the Muslims and Armenians is well known. It was a history of bloody warfare between peoples in which all died in great numbers. When the Ottomans retook much of the East, the Armenian population fled to Russia. There they starved and died of disease. When the Russians retook Van and Bitlis Provinces, they did not allow the Armenians to return, leaving them to starve in the North. The Russians wanted the land for themselves. It is also well known that Armenians who remained, those in Erzurum Province, massacred Muslims in great numbers at the end of the war.

My purpose here is not to retell that history. I wish to demonstrate that the Ottomans were right in considering the Armenians to be their enemies, if further proof is needed. The map shows proof that the Armenian rebels in fact were agents of Russia.

by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 1:20 PM EST IN SEARCH FOR FORCEFULY ISLAMISED ARMENIAN ORPHANS


According to a BBC message published in Armenian Mirror Spectator weekly, a Turkish documentary filmmaker Berke Bas left for his birthplace of Ordu at the Black Sea to look for Armenian orphans to shoot a documentary about them. Speaking to her relatives there, she found out that her parents once adopted at least 5 Armenian children.


No one has so far taken up the story of Armenian children spared by the Armenian Genocide and converted into Islam. Discussions of the Armenian Genocide issue incited by Turkey's furious efforts to join the European Union were apparently the cause for removing the taboo from these issues.


"I'm sure it will be difficult. People are unwilling to respond to my initiative and ask why I dig the past", Bas confessed, noting that many Turkish families refuse that they once had Armenians in their families.


"But we know that there were many such families to the extent that the Ottoman authorities issued a secret order to punish all those saving Armenian children by hiding them in their families", Prof. Selim Deringil of Bosphorus University of Istanbul assures.


"Those Islamised Christians fear to speak about their past. If a Turk says that his parents were Armenians, he will be labeled "gyavur" (unfaithful) and classified as an outcast", editor of Akos newspaper Hrant Dink said during the talk with Bas.


by aybike111 March 1, 2010 1:19 PM EST It must be remembered that the very existence of the Ottoman Empire was at stake. Serbia, Bosnia, Romania, Greece, and Bulgaria had already been lost because of European intervention. The Europeans had almost divided the Empire in 1878 and had planned to do so in the 1890s. Only fear that Russia would become too powerful had stopped them. Public opinion in Britain and France could easily change that. Indeed, that was exactly what the Armenian revolutionaries wanted. They wanted the Ottomans to jail and execute Armenian rebels. European newspapers would report that as government persecution of innocent Armenians. They wanted the government to prosecute Armenian revolutionary parties. The European newspapers would report that as denying political freedom to the Armenians. They wanted Muslims to react to Armenian provocations and attacks by killing Armenians. The European newspapers would report only the dead Armenians, not the dead Muslims. Public opinion would force the British and French to cooperate with the Russians and dismember the Empire.

Many politicians in Europe, men such as Gladstone, were as prejudiced against the Turks as were the press and the public. They were simply waiting for the right opportunity to destroy the Ottoman Empire. The result was that it was nearly impossible for the Ottomans to properly punish the rebels. The Europeans demanded that the Ottomans accept actions from the revolutionaries that the Europeans themselves would never tolerate in their own possessions. When the Dashnaks occupied the Ottoman Bank, Europeans arranged their release. European ambassadors forced the Ottomans to grant amnesty to rebels in Zeytun. They arranged pardons for those who attempted to kill sultan Abdulhamid II. The Russian consuls would not let Ottoman courts try Dashnak rebels, because they were Russian subjects. Many rebels who were successfully tried and convicted were released, because the Europeans demanded and received pardons for them, in essence threatening the sultan if he did not release rebels and murderers. One Russian consul in Van even publicly trained Armenian rebels, acting personally as their weapons instructor. All the Ottomans could do was try to keep things as quiet as possible. That meant not punishing the rebels as they should have been punished. One can only pity the Ottomans. They knew that if they governed properly the result would be the death of their state.

World War I

There were two factors that caused the Ottoman loss in the East in World War I:

The first was Enver Pasha's disastrous attack at Sarikamis. Enver's attack on Russia in December of 1914 was in every way a disaster. Of the 95,000 Turkish troops who attacked Russia, 75,000 died. The second factor, the one that concerns us here, was Armenian Revolt.


by aybike111 March 1, 2010 1:20 PM EST DESERTION ZONE

As World War I threatened and the Ottoman Army mobilized, Armenians who should have served their country instead took the side of the Russians. The Ottoman Army reported: "From Armenians with conscription obligations those in towns and villages East of the Hopa-Erzurum-Hinis-Van line did not comply with the call to enlist but have proceeded East to the border to join the organization in Russia." The effect of this is obvious: If the young Armenian males of the "zone of desertion" had served in the Army, they would have provided more than 50,000 troops. If they had served, there might never have been a Sarikamis defeat.

The Armenians from Hopa to Erzurum to Hinis to Van were not the only Armenians who did not serve. The 10s of thousands of Armenians of Sivas who formed chette bands did not serve. The rebels in Zeytun and elsewhere in Cilicia did not serve. The Armenians who fled to the Greek islands or to Egypt or Cyprus did not serve. More precisely, many of these Armenian young men did serve, but they served in the armies of the Ottomans' enemies. They did not protect their homeland, they attacked it.

In Eastern Anatolia, Armenians formed bands to fight a guerilla war against their government. Others fled only to return with the Russian Army, serving as scouts and advance units for the Russian invaders. It was those who stayed behind who were the greatest danger to the Ottoman war effort and the greatest danger to the lives of the Muslims of Eastern Anatolia.

It has often been alleged by Armenian nationalists that the Ottoman order to deport Armenians was not caused by Armenian rebellion. As evidence, they note the fact that the law of deportation was published in May of 1915, at approximately the same time that the Armenians seized the City of Van. According to this logic, the Ottomans must have planned the deportation some time before that date, so the rebellion could not have been the cause of the deportations. It is true that the Ottomans began to consider the possibility of deportation a few months before May, 1915. What is not true is that May, 1915 was the start of the Armenian rebellion. It had started long before.

European observers knew long before 1914 that Armenians would join the Russian side in event of war. As early as 1908, British consul Dickson had reported:

The Armenian revolutionaries in Van and Salmas [in Iran] have been informed by their Committee in Tiflis that in the event of war they will side with the Russians against Turkey. Unaided by the Russians, they could mobilize about 3,500 armed sharpshooters to harass the Turks about the frontier, and their lines of communication.[4]

British diplomatic sources reported that in preparation for war, in 1913, the Armenian revolutionary groups met and agreed to coordinate their efforts against the Ottomans. The British reported that this alliance was the result of meetings with "the Russian authorities." The Dashnak leader (and member of the Ottoman Parliament) Vramian had gone to Tiflis to confer with the Russian authorities. The British also reported that "[The Armenians] have thrown off any pretence of loyalty they may once have shown, and openly welcome the prospect of a Russian occupation of the Armenian Vilayets." [5]

Even Dashnak leaders admitted the Dashnaks were Russian allies. The Dashnak Hovhannes Katchaznouni, prime minister of the Armenian Republic, stated that the party plan at the beginning of the war was to ally with the Russians.

Since 1910 the revolutionaries had distributed a pamphlet throughout Eastern Anatolia. It demonstrated how Armenian villages were to be organized into regional commands, how Muslim villages were to be attacked, and specifics of guerilla warfare.

Before the war began, Ottoman Army Intelligence reported on Dashnak plans: They would declare their loyalty to the Ottoman State, but increase their arming of their supporters. If war was declared, Armenian soldiers would desert to the Russian Army with their arms. The Armenians would do nothing if the Ottomans began to defeat the Russians. If the Ottomans began to retreat, the Armenians would form armed guerilla bands and attack according to plan. The Ottoman intelligence reports were correct, for that is exactly what happened.

by aybike111 March 1, 2010 1:19 PM EST An agent arrived in a certain village and informed a villager that he must buy a Mauser pistol. The villager replied that he had no money, whereupon the agent retorted, "You must sell your oxen." The wretched villager then proceeded to explain that the sowing season would soon arrive and asked how a Mauser pistol would enable him to plough his fields. For reply the agent proceeded to destroy the poor man's oxen with his pistol and then departed."[2]

The rebels had more than military organization in mind when they forced the villagers to buy weapons. The villagers were charged double the normal cost of the weapons. A rifle worth 5 was sold for 10. Both the rebel organization and the rebels themselves did very well from the sales. It was the peasants who suffered most. The most basic policy of the revolutionaries was a callous exploitation of the lives of Armenians: The tribes and villages were attacked by the rebels, knowing that the tribes would take their revenge on innocent Armenian villagers. The revolutionaries escaped and left their fellow Armenians to die. Even Europeans, friends of the Armenians, could see that the revolutionaries were the cause of the curse that had descended on Eastern Anatolia. Consul Seele wrote in 1911:

From what I have seen in the parts of the country I have visited I have become more convinced than ever of the baneful influence of the Taschnak Committee on the welfare of the Armenians and generally of this part of Turkey. It is impossible to overlook the fact in that in all places where there are no Armenian political organisations or where such organisations are imperfectly developed, the Armenians live in comparative harmony with the Turks.[3]

The Englishman rightly saw that the cause of the unrest in the East was the Armenian revolutionaries. If there were no Dashnaks, the Turks and Armenians would have lived together in peace. The Ottoman Government knew this was true. Why did the Government tolerate so much from the rebels? Why did the Government not stamp them out?

The Ottoman failure to effectively oppose the rebels is indeed hard to understand. Imagine a country in which a number of radical revolutionaries, most of them from a foreign country, organize a rebellion. They infiltrate fighters and guns from this foreign country to lead their attack on the government and the people. The radicals openly state they wish to create a state in which the majority of the population will be excluded from rule. They murder and terrorize their own people to force them to join their cause. They murder government officials. They deliberately murder members of the majority in the hope that reprisals will lead other nations to invade. They store thousands of weapons in preparation for revolt. They revolt, are defeated, then revolt again and again. The country that gains most from the rebels' actions is the country they come from-the country in which they organize, the country in which they have their home base.

What government would tolerate this? Has there ever been a country that would not jail, and probably hang such rebels? Has there ever been a country that would allow them to continue to operate openly? Yes. That country was the Ottoman Empire. In the Ottoman Empire the Armenian rebels operated openly, stored thousands of weapons, murdered Muslims and Armenians, killed governors and other officials, and rebelled again and again. The only one to truly benefit from their actions was Russia-the country in which they organized, the country their leaders came from. How could this happen? The Ottomans were not cowards. The Ottomans were not fools. They knew what the rebels were doing. The Ottomans tolerated the Armenian revolutionaries because the Ottomans had no choice.


by aybike111 March 1, 2010 1:19 PM EST It must be remembered that the very existence of the Ottoman Empire was at stake. Serbia, Bosnia, Romania, Greece, and Bulgaria had already been lost because of European intervention. The Europeans had almost divided the Empire in 1878 and had planned to do so in the 1890s. Only fear that Russia would become too powerful had stopped them. Public opinion in Britain and France could easily change that. Indeed, that was exactly what the Armenian revolutionaries wanted. They wanted the Ottomans to jail and execute Armenian rebels. European newspapers would report that as government persecution of innocent Armenians. They wanted the government to prosecute Armenian revolutionary parties. The European newspapers would report that as denying political freedom to the Armenians. They wanted Muslims to react to Armenian provocations and attacks by killing Armenians. The European newspapers would report only the dead Armenians, not the dead Muslims. Public opinion would force the British and French to cooperate with the Russians and dismember the Empire.

Many politicians in Europe, men such as Gladstone, were as prejudiced against the Turks as were the press and the public. They were simply waiting for the right opportunity to destroy the Ottoman Empire. The result was that it was nearly impossible for the Ottomans to properly punish the rebels. The Europeans demanded that the Ottomans accept actions from the revolutionaries that the Europeans themselves would never tolerate in their own possessions. When the Dashnaks occupied the Ottoman Bank, Europeans arranged their release. European ambassadors forced the Ottomans to grant amnesty to rebels in Zeytun. They arranged pardons for those who attempted to kill sultan Abdulhamid II. The Russian consuls would not let Ottoman courts try Dashnak rebels, because they were Russian subjects. Many rebels who were successfully tried and convicted were released, because the Europeans demanded and received pardons for them, in essence threatening the sultan if he did not release rebels and murderers. One Russian consul in Van even publicly trained Armenian rebels, acting personally as their weapons instructor. All the Ottomans could do was try to keep things as quiet as possible. That meant not punishing the rebels as they should have been punished. One can only pity the Ottomans. They knew that if they governed properly the result would be the death of their state.

World War I

There were two factors that caused the Ottoman loss in the East in World War I:

The first was Enver Pasha's disastrous attack at Sarikamis. Enver's attack on Russia in December of 1914 was in every way a disaster. Of the 95,000 Turkish troops who attacked Russia, 75,000 died. The second factor, the one that concerns us here, was Armenian Revolt.

by aybike111 March 1, 2010 1:18 PM EST What happened to Armenian clergymen who opposed the Dashnaks? Priests were killed in villages and cities. Their crime? They were loyal Ottoman subjects. The Armenian bishop of Van, Boghos, was murdered by the revolutionaries in his cathedral on Christmas Eve. His crime? He was a loyal Ottoman subject. The Dashnaks attempted to kill the Armenian Patriarch in Istanbul, Malachia Ormanian. His crime? He opposed the revolutionaries. Arsen, the priest in charge of the important Akhtamar Church in Van, the religious center of the Armenians in the Ottoman East, was murdered by Ishkhan, one of the leaders of Van's Dashnaks. His crime? He opposed the Dashnaks. But there was an additional reason to kill him: The Dashnaks wanted to take over the Armenian education system that was based in Akhtamar. After Father Arsen was killed, the Dashnak Aram Manukian, a man without known religious belief, became head of the Armenian schools. He closed down religious education and began revolutionary education. So-called "religious teachers" spread throughout Van Province, teaching revolution, not religion.

The loyalty of the rebels was to the revolution. Not even their church was safe from their attacks.

The other group that most threatened the power of the rebels was the Armenian merchant class. As a group they favored the government. They wanted peace and order, so that they could do business. They were the traditional secular leaders of the Armenian Community; the rebels wanted to lead the Community themselves, so the merchants had to be silenced. Those who most publicly supported their government, such as Bedros Kapamacyan, the Mayor of Van, and Armarak, the kaymakam of Geva?, were assassinated, as were numerous Armenian policemen, at least one Armenian Chief of Police, and Armenian advisors to the Government. Only a very brave Armenian would take the side of the Government.

The Dashnaks looked on the merchants as a source of money. The merchants would never donate to the revolution willingly. They had to be forced to do so. The first reported case of extortion from merchants came in Erzurum in 1895, soon after the Dashnak Party became active in the Ottoman domains. The campaign began in earnest in 1901. In that year the extortion of funds through threats and assassination became the official policy of the Dashnak Party. The campaign was carried out in Russia and the Balkans, as well as in the Ottoman Empire. One prominent Armenian merchant, Isahag Zhamharian, refused to pay and reported the Dashnaks to the police. He was assassinated in the courtyard of an Armenian church. Others who did not pay were also killed. The rest of the merchants then paid.

From 1902 to 1904 the main extortion campaign brought in the equivalent, in today's money, of more than eight million dollars. And this was only the amount collected by the central Dashnak committee in a short period, almost all from outside the Ottoman Empire. It does not include the amounts extorted from 1895 to 1914 in many areas of the Ottoman Empire. Soon the merchants were paying their taxes to the revolutionaries, not to the government. When the government in Van demanded that the merchants pay their taxes, the merchants pleaded that they had indeed paid taxes, but to the revolutionaries. They said they could only pay the government if the government protected them from the rebels. The same condition prevailed all over Eastern Anatolia, in Izmir, in Cilicia, and elsewhere. The Armenian common people did not escape the extortions of the rebels. They were forced to feed and house the revolutionaries. British Consul Elliot reported, "They [the Dashnaks] quarter themselves on Christian villages, live on the best to be had, exact contributions to their funds, and make the younger women and girls submit to their will. Those who incur their displeasure are murdered in cold blood."[1]

The greatest cost to villagers was the forced purchase of guns. The villagers were turned into rebel "soldiers," whether they wished to be or not. If they were to fight the Turks, they needed weapons. The revolutionaries smuggled weapons from Russia and forced the Armenian villagers to buy. The methods used to force the villagers to buy were very effective, as British consul Seele reported:


by aybike111 March 1, 2010 1:19 PM EST An agent arrived in a certain village and informed a villager that he must buy a Mauser pistol. The villager replied that he had no money, whereupon the agent retorted, "You must sell your oxen." The wretched villager then proceeded to explain that the sowing season would soon arrive and asked how a Mauser pistol would enable him to plough his fields. For reply the agent proceeded to destroy the poor man's oxen with his pistol and then departed."[2]

The rebels had more than military organization in mind when they forced the villagers to buy weapons. The villagers were charged double the normal cost of the weapons. A rifle worth 5 was sold for 10. Both the rebel organization and the rebels themselves did very well from the sales. It was the peasants who suffered most. The most basic policy of the revolutionaries was a callous exploitation of the lives of Armenians: The tribes and villages were attacked by the rebels, knowing that the tribes would take their revenge on innocent Armenian villagers. The revolutionaries escaped and left their fellow Armenians to die. Even Europeans, friends of the Armenians, could see that the revolutionaries were the cause of the curse that had descended on Eastern Anatolia. Consul Seele wrote in 1911:

From what I have seen in the parts of the country I have visited I have become more convinced than ever of the baneful influence of the Taschnak Committee on the welfare of the Armenians and generally of this part of Turkey. It is impossible to overlook the fact in that in all places where there are no Armenian political organisations or where such organisations are imperfectly developed, the Armenians live in comparative harmony with the Turks.[3]

The Englishman rightly saw that the cause of the unrest in the East was the Armenian revolutionaries. If there were no Dashnaks, the Turks and Armenians would have lived together in peace. The Ottoman Government knew this was true. Why did the Government tolerate so much from the rebels? Why did the Government not stamp them out?

The Ottoman failure to effectively oppose the rebels is indeed hard to understand. Imagine a country in which a number of radical revolutionaries, most of them from a foreign country, organize a rebellion. They infiltrate fighters and guns from this foreign country to lead their attack on the government and the people. The radicals openly state they wish to create a state in which the majority of the population will be excluded from rule. They murder and terrorize their own people to force them to join their cause. They murder government officials. They deliberately murder members of the majority in the hope that reprisals will lead other nations to invade. They store thousands of weapons in preparation for revolt. They revolt, are defeated, then revolt again and again. The country that gains most from the rebels' actions is the country they come from-the country in which they organize, the country in which they have their home base.

What government would tolerate this? Has there ever been a country that would not jail, and probably hang such rebels? Has there ever been a country that would allow them to continue to operate openly? Yes. That country was the Ottoman Empire. In the Ottoman Empire the Armenian rebels operated openly, stored thousands of weapons, murdered Muslims and Armenians, killed governors and other officials, and rebelled again and again. The only one to truly benefit from their actions was Russia-the country in which they organized, the country their leaders came from. How could this happen? The Ottomans were not cowards. The Ottomans were not fools. They knew what the rebels were doing. The Ottomans tolerated the Armenian revolutionaries because the Ottomans had no choice.


by OttomanSultan March 1, 2010 1:18 PM EST Don't twist the facts, like you do with your so-called genocide claims. At that time, Greece and Turkey agreed on population exchange. Here read and learn:

http://www.hri.org/docs/straits/exchange.html


by aybike111 March 1, 2010 1:17 PM EST The Armenian Revolutionaries

It was not until Russian Armenians brought their nationalist ideology to Eastern Anatolia that Armenian rebellion became a real threat to the Ottoman State.

Although there were others, two parties of nationalists were to lead the Armenian rebellion. The first, the Hunchakian Revolutionary Party, called the Hunchaks, was founded in Geneva, Switzerland in 1887 by Armenians from Russia. The second, the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, called the Dashnaks, was founded in the Russian Empire, in Tiflis, in 1890. Both were Marxist. Their methods were violent. The Hunchak and Dashnak Party Manifestos called for armed revolution in the Ottoman Empire. Terrorism, including the murder of both Ottoman officials and Armenians who opposed them, was part of the party platforms. Although they were Marxists, both groups made nationalism the most important part of their philosophy of revolution. In this they were much like the nationalist revolutionaries of Bulgaria, Macedonia, or Greece.


POPULATION

Unlike the Greek or Bulgarian revolutionaries, the Armenians had a demographic problem. In Greece, the majority of the population was Greek. In Bulgaria, the majority was Bulgarian. In the lands claimed by the Armenians, however, Armenians were a fairly small minority. The region that was called "Ottoman Armenia," the "Six Vilayets" of Sivas, Mam?ret?laziz, Diyarbakir, Bitlis, Van, and Erzurum, was only 17% Armenian. It was 78% Muslim. This was to have important consequences for the Armenian revolution, because the only way to create the "Armenia" the revolutionaries wanted was to expel the Muslims who lived there. Anyone who doubts the intentions of the revolutionaries need only look at their record-actions such as the murder of one governor of Van Province and attempted murder of another, murders of police chiefs and other officials, the attempted assassination of sultan Abdulhamid II. These were radical nationalists who were at war with the Ottoman State.

SMUGGLING ROUTES

Beginning in earnest in the 1890s, the Russian Armenian revolutionaries began to infiltrate the Ottoman Empire. They smuggled rifles, cartridges, dynamite, and fighters across ill-defended borders into Van, Erzurum, and Bitlis provinces along the routes shown on the map. The Ottomans were poorly equipped to fight them. The problem was financial. The Ottomans still suffered from their terrible losses in the 1877-78 War with Russia. They suffered from the Capitulations, from debts, and from predatory European bankers. It must also be admitted that the Ottomans were poor economists. The result was a lack of money to support the new police and military units that were needed to fight the revolutionaries . The number of soldiers and gendarmes in the East was never sufficient, and they were often not paid for months at a time. It was impossible to defeat the rebels with so few resources.

By far the most successful of the revolutionaries were the Dashnaks. Dashnaks from Russia were the leaders of rebellion. They were the organizers and the "enforcers" who turned the Armenians of Anatolia into rebel soldiers. This was not an easy task, because at first most of the Ottoman Armenians had no wish to rebel. They preferred peace and security and disapproved of the atheistic, socialist revolutionaries. A feeling of separatism and even superiority among the Armenians helped the revolutionaries, but the main weapon that turned the Armenians of the East into rebels was terrorism. The prime cause that united the Armenians against their government was fear.

Before the Armenians could be turned into rebels their traditional loyalty to their Church and their Community leaders had to be destroyed. The rebels realized that Armenians felt the most love and respect for their Church, not for the revolution. The Dashnak Party therefore resolved to take effective control of the Church. Most clergymen, however, did not support the atheistic Dashnaks. The Church could only be taken over through violence.


by aybike111 March 1, 2010 1:18 PM EST What happened to Armenian clergymen who opposed the Dashnaks? Priests were killed in villages and cities. Their crime? They were loyal Ottoman subjects. The Armenian bishop of Van, Boghos, was murdered by the revolutionaries in his cathedral on Christmas Eve. His crime? He was a loyal Ottoman subject. The Dashnaks attempted to kill the Armenian Patriarch in Istanbul, Malachia Ormanian. His crime? He opposed the revolutionaries. Arsen, the priest in charge of the important Akhtamar Church in Van, the religious center of the Armenians in the Ottoman East, was murdered by Ishkhan, one of the leaders of Van's Dashnaks. His crime? He opposed the Dashnaks. But there was an additional reason to kill him: The Dashnaks wanted to take over the Armenian education system that was based in Akhtamar. After Father Arsen was killed, the Dashnak Aram Manukian, a man without known religious belief, became head of the Armenian schools. He closed down religious education and began revolutionary education. So-called "religious teachers" spread throughout Van Province, teaching revolution, not religion.

The loyalty of the rebels was to the revolution. Not even their church was safe from their attacks.

The other group that most threatened the power of the rebels was the Armenian merchant class. As a group they favored the government. They wanted peace and order, so that they could do business. They were the traditional secular leaders of the Armenian Community; the rebels wanted to lead the Community themselves, so the merchants had to be silenced. Those who most publicly supported their government, such as Bedros Kapamacyan, the Mayor of Van, and Armarak, the kaymakam of Geva?, were assassinated, as were numerous Armenian policemen, at least one Armenian Chief of Police, and Armenian advisors to the Government. Only a very brave Armenian would take the side of the Government.

The Dashnaks looked on the merchants as a source of money. The merchants would never donate to the revolution willingly. They had to be forced to do so. The first reported case of extortion from merchants came in Erzurum in 1895, soon after the Dashnak Party became active in the Ottoman domains. The campaign began in earnest in 1901. In that year the extortion of funds through threats and assassination became the official policy of the Dashnak Party. The campaign was carried out in Russia and the Balkans, as well as in the Ottoman Empire. One prominent Armenian merchant, Isahag Zhamharian, refused to pay and reported the Dashnaks to the police. He was assassinated in the courtyard of an Armenian church. Others who did not pay were also killed. The rest of the merchants then paid.

From 1902 to 1904 the main extortion campaign brought in the equivalent, in today's money, of more than eight million dollars. And this was only the amount collected by the central Dashnak committee in a short period, almost all from outside the Ottoman Empire. It does not include the amounts extorted from 1895 to 1914 in many areas of the Ottoman Empire. Soon the merchants were paying their taxes to the revolutionaries, not to the government. When the government in Van demanded that the merchants pay their taxes, the merchants pleaded that they had indeed paid taxes, but to the revolutionaries. They said they could only pay the government if the government protected them from the rebels. The same condition prevailed all over Eastern Anatolia, in Izmir, in Cilicia, and elsewhere. The Armenian common people did not escape the extortions of the rebels. They were forced to feed and house the revolutionaries. British Consul Elliot reported, "They [the Dashnaks] quarter themselves on Christian villages, live on the best to be had, exact contributions to their funds, and make the younger women and girls submit to their will. Those who incur their displeasure are murdered in cold blood."[1]

The greatest cost to villagers was the forced purchase of guns. The villagers were turned into rebel "soldiers," whether they wished to be or not. If they were to fight the Turks, they needed weapons. The revolutionaries smuggled weapons from Russia and forced the Armenian villagers to buy. The methods used to force the villagers to buy were very effective, as British consul Seele reported:

by armenia33 March 1, 2010 1:17 PM EST When a group of unarmed Men, Women, and Children are attacked they must defend themselves. In America that is called self-defense. In Turkey they expected people just to sit back and wait until their turn to die was up. The Whole world knows Turkey should be called chicken instead of Turkey.


by aybike111 March 1, 2010 1:16 PM EST Speech given by Dr. Justin McCarthy

March 24, 2005

"THE HISTORY

Ottoman Provinces

Conflict between the Turks and the Armenians was not inevitable. The two peoples should have been friends. When World War I began, the Armenians and Turks had been living together for 800 years. The Armenians of Anatolia and Europe had been Ottoman subjects for nearly 400 years. There were problems during those centuries--problems caused especially by those who attacked and ultimately destroyed the Ottoman Empire. Everyone in the Empire suffered, but it was the Turks and other Muslims who suffered most. Judged by all economic and social standards, the Armenians did well under Ottoman rule. By the late nineteenth century, in every Ottoman province the Armenians were better educated and richer than the Muslims. Armenians worked hard, it is true, but their comparative riches were largely due to European and American influence and Ottoman tolerance. European merchants made Ottoman Christians their agents. European merchants gave them their business. European consuls intervened in their behalf. The Armenians benefited from the education given to them, and not to the Turks, by American missionaries.

While the lives of the Armenians as a group were improving, Muslims were living through some of the worst suffering experienced in modern history: In the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, Bosnians were massacred by Serbs, Russians killed and exiled the Circassians, Abkhazians, and Laz, and Turks were killed and expelled from their homelands by Russians, Bulgarians, Greeks, and Serbs. Yet, in the midst of all this Muslim suffering, the political situation of the Ottoman Armenians constantly improved. First, equal rights for Christians and Jews were guaranteed in law. Equal rights increasingly became a reality, as well. Christians took high places in the government. They became ambassadors, treasury officials, even foreign ministers. In many ways, in fact, the rights of Christians became greater than those of the Muslims, because powerful European states intervened in their behalf. The Europeans demanded and received special treatment for Christians. Muslims had no such advantages.

That was the environment in which Armenians revolted against the Ottoman Empire--hundreds of years of peace, economic superiority, constantly improving political conditions. This would not seem to be a cause for revolution. Yet the nineteenth century saw the beginning of an Armenian revolution that was to culminate in disaster for both. What drove the Armenians and the Turks apart?

RUSSIAN EXPANSION

The Russians

First and foremost, there were the Russians. Regions where Christians and Muslims had been living together in relative peace were torn asunder when the Russians invaded the Caucasian Muslim lands. Most Armenians were probably neutral, but a significant number took the side of the Russians. Armenians served as spies and even provided armed units of soldiers for the Russians. There were significant benefits for the Armenians: The Russians took Erivan Province, today's Armenian Republic, in 1828. They expelled Turks and gave the Turkish land, tax-free, to Armenians. The Russians knew that if the Turks remained they would always be the enemies of their conquerors, so they replaced them with a friendly population-the Armenians.

The forced exile of the Muslims continued until the first days of World War I: 300,000 Crimean Tatars, 1.2 million Circassians and Abkhazians, 40,000 Laz, 70,000 Turks. The Russians invaded Anatolia in the war of 1877-78, and once again many Armenians joined the Russian side. They served as scouts and spies. Armenians became the "police" in occupied territories, persecuting the Turkish population. The peace treaty of 1878 gave much of Northeastern Anatolia back to the Ottomans. The Armenians who had helped the Russians feared revenge and fled, although the Turks did not, in fact, take any revenge.

Both the Muslims and the Armenians remembered the events of the Russian invasions. Armenians could see that they would be more likely to prosper if the Russians won. Free land, even if stolen from Muslims, was a powerful incentive for Armenian farmers. Rebellious Ottoman Armenians had found a powerful protector in Russia. Rebels also had a base in Russia from which they could organize rebellion and smuggle men and guns into the Ottoman Empire.

The Muslims knew that if the Russians were guardian angels for the Armenians, they were devils for the Muslims. They could see that when the Russians triumphed Muslims lost their lands and their lives. They knew what would happen if the Russians came again. And they could see that Armenians had been on the side of the Russians. Thus did 800 years of peaceful coexistence disintegrate.


by aybike111 March 1, 2010 1:17 PM EST The Armenian Revolutionaries

It was not until Russian Armenians brought their nationalist ideology to Eastern Anatolia that Armenian rebellion became a real threat to the Ottoman State.

Although there were others, two parties of nationalists were to lead the Armenian rebellion. The first, the Hunchakian Revolutionary Party, called the Hunchaks, was founded in Geneva, Switzerland in 1887 by Armenians from Russia. The second, the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, called the Dashnaks, was founded in the Russian Empire, in Tiflis, in 1890. Both were Marxist. Their methods were violent. The Hunchak and Dashnak Party Manifestos called for armed revolution in the Ottoman Empire. Terrorism, including the murder of both Ottoman officials and Armenians who opposed them, was part of the party platforms. Although they were Marxists, both groups made nationalism the most important part of their philosophy of revolution. In this they were much like the nationalist revolutionaries of Bulgaria, Macedonia, or Greece.


POPULATION

Unlike the Greek or Bulgarian revolutionaries, the Armenians had a demographic problem. In Greece, the majority of the population was Greek. In Bulgaria, the majority was Bulgarian. In the lands claimed by the Armenians, however, Armenians were a fairly small minority. The region that was called "Ottoman Armenia," the "Six Vilayets" of Sivas, Mam?ret?laziz, Diyarbakir, Bitlis, Van, and Erzurum, was only 17% Armenian. It was 78% Muslim. This was to have important consequences for the Armenian revolution, because the only way to create the "Armenia" the revolutionaries wanted was to expel the Muslims who lived there. Anyone who doubts the intentions of the revolutionaries need only look at their record-actions such as the murder of one governor of Van Province and attempted murder of another, murders of police chiefs and other officials, the attempted assassination of sultan Abdulhamid II. These were radical nationalists who were at war with the Ottoman State.

SMUGGLING ROUTES

Beginning in earnest in the 1890s, the Russian Armenian revolutionaries began to infiltrate the Ottoman Empire. They smuggled rifles, cartridges, dynamite, and fighters across ill-defended borders into Van, Erzurum, and Bitlis provinces along the routes shown on the map. The Ottomans were poorly equipped to fight them. The problem was financial. The Ottomans still suffered from their terrible losses in the 1877-78 War with Russia. They suffered from the Capitulations, from debts, and from predatory European bankers. It must also be admitted that the Ottomans were poor economists. The result was a lack of money to support the new police and military units that were needed to fight the revolutionaries . The number of soldiers and gendarmes in the East was never sufficient, and they were often not paid for months at a time. It was impossible to defeat the rebels with so few resources.

By far the most successful of the revolutionaries were the Dashnaks. Dashnaks from Russia were the leaders of rebellion. They were the organizers and the "enforcers" who turned the Armenians of Anatolia into rebel soldiers. This was not an easy task, because at first most of the Ottoman Armenians had no wish to rebel. They preferred peace and security and disapproved of the atheistic, socialist revolutionaries. A feeling of separatism and even superiority among the Armenians helped the revolutionaries, but the main weapon that turned the Armenians of the East into rebels was terrorism. The prime cause that united the Armenians against their government was fear.

Before the Armenians could be turned into rebels their traditional loyalty to their Church and their Community leaders had to be destroyed. The rebels realized that Armenians felt the most love and respect for their Church, not for the revolution. The Dashnak Party therefore resolved to take effective control of the Church. Most clergymen, however, did not support the atheistic Dashnaks. The Church could only be taken over through violence.

by OttomanSultan March 1, 2010 1:13 PM EST 1992, Khodjaly genocide by Armenians:

The Khojaly Massacre was the killing of hundreds of ethnic Azerbaijani civilians from the town of Khojaly on 25-26 February 1992 during the Nagorno-Karabakh War. The town itself was levelled to the ground. According to the Azerbaijani side, as well as Memorial Human Rights Center, Human Rights Watch and other international observers,[2][3] the massacre was committed by the ethnic Armenian armed forces, reportedly with help of the Russian 366th Motor Rifle Regiment, apparently not acting on orders from the command.[4][5] The official death toll provided by Azerbaijani authorities is 613 civilians, of them 106 women and 83 children.[6] The event became the largest massacre in the course of conflict.


by OttomanSultan March 1, 2010 1:10 PM EST Armenian terror organisation ASALA, ONLY 30 years ago:

According to the MIPT website, there had been 84 incidents involving ASALA leaving 46 dead and 299 injured, including the following:[3]

* February 16, 1976 in Turkish Embassy in Beirut, Oktar Cirit was killed. * October 12, 1979 in Turkish Embassy in the Hague, Ahmet Benler, the son of the Ambassador ?zdemir Benler, was killed (This attack was one of the attacks co-claimed by JCAG. * July 31, 1980 in Turkish Embassy in Athens, Galip ?zmen and his 14 year old daughter Neslihan were killed in the Turkish consulate. Galip ?zmen's wife Sevil ?zmen and their son Kaan survived the attack with injuries. * December 29, 1980 in Madrid, a Spanish journalist, assistant director of the "Pueblo" newspaper, Jos? Antonio Gurriar?n was accidentally injured during an October 3 group attack. Then Gurriar?n was interested what the group's purposes were; he found and interviewed ASALA members. In 1982 his "La Bomba" book was published, dedicated to the Armenian cause and Armenian militant's struggle.[18] * March 4, 1981 in the Turkish Embassy in Paris, Re?at Moral? was killed and Tecelli Ar? was injured. * June 9, 1981 in the Turkish Consulate in Geneva, Mehmet Sava? Yerg?z was killed. * September 24, 1981 in Turkish Consulate in Paris, 56 Turks were held hostage in the embassy by ASALA militants (none of the hostages were harmed), Turkish guard Cemal ?zen was killed. ASALA members demanded the Turkish government free Armenian political prisoners within 12 hours and fly them to Paris. After 15 hours they surrendered peacefully requesting political asylum from the French government.[19] * April 28, 1984 in Turkish Embassy in Tehran, Iran, I??k Y?nder was killed.

One of the most criticized attacks of ASALA was Esenboga airport attack on August 7, 1982 in Ankara, when its members targeted non-diplomat civilians for the first time. Two militants opened fire in a crowded passenger waiting room. One of the shooters took more than 20 hostages while the second was apprehended by police. Altogether, nine people died and 82 were injured. The arrested militant Levon Ekmekjian condemned the ASALA in the aftermath of the attack and appealed to other members to leave and stop the violence.

On August 10, 1982, Artin Penik a Turk of Armenian descent, set himself on fire in protest of this attack.[20][21][22][23]

Prominent Armenian poet Silva Kaputikyan in 1983 wrote "Its raining my sonny" poem dedicated to the memory of ASALA member Ekmekjian.[24]

On July 15, 1983, the ASALA carried out another attack at the Orly Airport near Paris, in which 8 people were killed, most of them being French citizens. The attack resulted in a split in ASALA, between those individuals who carried it out, and those who believed the attack to be counter productive.[25] The split resulted in emergence of two groups, the Nationalists (ASALA-Militant) led by Hagopian and the 'Revolutionary Movement' (ASALA-Mouvement R?volutionnaire) led by Monte Melkonian.[26] While Melkonian's faction insisted on attacks strictly against Turkish officials and the Turkish government, Hagopian's group disregarded the losses of unintended victims and regularly executed dissenting members.

Afterwards, French forces promptly arrested those involved.[27] Moreover, this attack eliminated the suspected secret agreement that the French socialist government made with ASALA, in which the government would allow ASALA to use France as a base of operations in exchange for refraining from launching attacks on French soil. Belief in this suspected agreement was further bolstered after "Interior Minister Gaston Defferre called [ASALA's] cause "just," and four Armenians arrested for taking hostages at the Turkish Embassy in September 1981 were given light sentences."[28]


by Real-politik March 1, 2010 1:10 PM EST navyrecon, First of all,i should inform you that in both Yugoslavian and 3rd persian gulf war,the US subs and part of navy used to resupply from Crete(southest part ofGreece). Secondly,there is no country named Macedonia,there is one called FYROM. Thirdly,yes there were demonstrations,but they were like the ones that took place in Turkey,do you remember the part where the US got a no go from Turkey in the third Gulf war? Fourthly,a few months ago a survey's been taken in Turkey to determine who Turks consider the greatest threat,well guess what..The US were First. Greece recognize sminorities but not ethnic ones,it was signed at lousanne treaty that there were a muslim minority(it now number's ~130thousand) and all other Turkish inhabitants should be exchanged with the Greeks living in Turkey,Turkey recognised the Greek minority of Instabul but in 1955 they were deported after a huge wave of violence against them,which was orchistrated by the military junta that dominates Turkey. Greece kicked Cams out because they commited treason,ofcourse the Greeks could execute them all like turkey did and still does.


by OttomanSultan March 1, 2010 1:18 PM EST Don't twist the facts, like you do with your so-called genocide claims. At that time, Greece and Turkey agreed on population exchange. Here read and learn:

http://www.hri.org/docs/straits/exchange.html

by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 1:09 PM EST Father sues Turkish Education Ministry over Armenian 'genocide' DVD

Suna Erdem in Istanbul

A father is suing the Turkish Education Ministry for forcing his 11-year-old daughter to watch a `racist' and `disturbing' film countering claims that Ottoman Turks committed genocide against Armenians in 1915 with graphic allegations of Armenian atrocities against Turks.

The landmark case takes on what human rights activists have called the State's militarist policy of brainwashing Turkey's schoolchildren to the point of racist paranoia, aiming to preserve a nationalist status quo criticised by the European Union, which Turkey is keen to join.

`My daughter was very disturbed and frightened by the documentary and kept asking me if the Armenians had cut us up,' said Serdar Kaya, an ethnic Turkish doctor, who is suing the ministry and the child's school for inciting racial hatred.

`There are many mass graves, bones and skulls in the DVD. They have interviewed old grandads who inspire confidence and compassion. When they say things like 'They cut off his head' and 'They used it instead of firewood', that is bound to stay with the children,' Serdar Degirmencioglu, a psychologist, told the Armenian newspaper Agos when news first broke that the documentary was being shown to primary school children - including ethnic Armenian Turks. Related Links

The Education Ministry says that it has stopped the distribution of the documentary, Sari Gelin (Blonde Bride), named after an Armenian folk song. But it has apparently not recalled it and critics say that it remains part of the curriculum.

Some MPs are bringing up the case in Parliament. The education union Egitim-Sen has condemned the film, and the History Foundation has dismissed it as baseless propaganda.

Another lawsuit has been filed by a foundation set up in honour of the murdered Turkish-Armenian journalist Hrant Dink. The former editor of Agos was murdered in 2007 by a young nationalist whose links to a group of ultra-nationalists, codenamed Ergenekon, operating within the security forces and state bureaucracy are now being investigated. `In the whole of the documentary the word 'Armenian' has been used thousands of times and only with negative connotations,' the Foundation said.

Mr Dink had been one of several high-profile intellectuals, also including Orhan Pamuk, the Nobel literature laureate, and Elif Shafak, the bestselling author, who had been sued by nationalist lawyers over comments and writings alluding to the mass Armenian deaths. `You can see that all those cases were part of a project of manipulation ... There is a sick, abnormal tissue of Turkish society that is poisoned by a nationalist, racist virus,' said Ufuk Uras, an independent MP who backs Mr Kaya's case.

Many historians class the 1915 events as genocide, but even those who reject the term accept that hundreds of thousands of Armenians died when the Ottoman Turks deported them from eastern Anatolia. According to the International Association of Genocide Scholars, the death toll was `more than a million'.

`You go and kill more than a million Armenians, wipe the traces of Armenians from Anatolia, grab their property, and then show children videos about 'What the Armenians did to us' ... We are cutting these children off from the rest of the world,' said Ahmet Altan, editor of the independent newspaper Taraf.


by OttomanSultan March 1, 2010 1:08 PM EST Read all Armenian attrocities against Turks: http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/massacres/atrocities.html


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 1:07 PM EST CHILDREN EXPOSED TO RACIST PROPAGANDA MOVIE

BIA Feb 18 2009 Turkey

A "documentary" on the events of 1915 prepared by the Turkish army incites protest by NGOs and individuals. The nation-wide showing of the propaganda material in schools will instill hatred in a whole generation they warn.

The General Staff of the Turkish Army has prepared a six-part "documentary", which was sent to all primary schools through the province authorities of the Ministry of Education. The DVDs are to be shown to children "at a convenient time", and schools are to report back on the effects of the film by 2 March, so a letter sent to schools by the Ministry in January.

One of Turkey's most controversial issues The film is named after a well-loved folk song, "Sar? Gelin" (Blonde Bride), a song whose melody is known in Turkey, Azerbaijan and Armenia, yet, so the vehement critics, the film has nothing to do with promoting intercultural understanding.

The full title of this "documentary" is "Sar? Gelin: The Inside Story of the Armenian Problem", and it was sent out to primary schools in June 2008.

It deals with the events of 1915, when, so many Armenians and also an increasing number of Turks say, millions of Armenian citizens of the Ottoman Empire were forcibly sent into exile across to Syria. Definitions of the event range from a genocide (i.e. a deliberate plan to eradicate an ethnic group) to claims that the government was at the least negligent in letting so many people starve, die of exhaustion or be killed by gangs. The Turkish official discourse has long been to deny any wrongdoing, and rather blame nationalist Armenian gangs for causing upheaval in the Ottoman Empire and killing Turkish civilians.

A recent rapprochement between Turkish President Abdullah Gul and Armenian Serzh Sargsyan, as well as an initiative by Turkish intellectuals to apologise for the events of 1915 seemed to be indications of a lessening of polarisation. However, critics of this "documentary" say that it reiterates the Turkish nationalist stance.

"A generation fed on hatred" The education trade union Egitim-Sen has demanded that schools immediately stop showing this film. Trade union leader Zubeyde K?l?c told bianet that their report on the film would be published within a week, and that they may go to court in order to prevent further screenings at schools.

According to K?l?c, the film would teach 12 million children, aged 6-14, to hate Armenians and anyone who is different. It would "create a generation fed on hatred."

She added, "These children are at an age when they accept information without interpreting it, when they accept what they are told as the truth, and when things are stored in their memory. It will be impossible for a child watching this film not to feel hatred for Armenians."

"As for the Armenian children (i.e. citizens of Turkey who will also be exposed to this film), they may be marginalised or discriminated against afterwards. This worry may lead to them hiding their identities."

K?l?c has called on an education which would teach the events of 1915, as well as other controversial parts of Turkey's history, in a way that would heal wounds. "But this film encourages conflict."


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 1:06 PM EST CHILDREN EXPOSED TO RACIST PROPAGANDA MOVIE --II



"Human rights violation"

The History Foundation has also denounced the film as propaganda rather than a documentary. The foundation is currently working on a project to identify human rights violations in school books, and argues that this film represents just such a violation. It has also called on the Ministry of Education to halt the viewings.

The foundation added, "This documentary is using a language of hostility and discrimination to sow seeds of hatred in a society where a hostility towards Armenians exists already. The 'justified reasons' for this hostile attitude towards people who are 'not one of us' is built on manipulative and selective 'arguments' put forward in the film. The young pupils watching this film will accept those claims as the truth."

Societal peace needs to be promoted

The History Foundation further said, "All these children and their families are citizens with equal rights in this country. It should be expected from the Ministry of Education that it would respect such sensitivities in its practices. A safe environment, and societal peace, can only be created when education practices are in tune with such an understanding of citizenship. Damaged children's brains can only stand in the way of societal peace."

Armenian schools worried Aris Nalc?, a writer for the Turkish-Armenian newspaper Agos, reports that schools have started showing the film. He says that the Armenian schools, which have also received the DVDs, are worried. Some heads of school have said that their teaching staff watched the film and decided that it would create traumas among children.

Images of mass graves and bones for children The journalist cites psychologist Asist. Prof. Dr. Serdar Degirmenoglu, who says that children at that age would not be possible to recognise bad propaganda material. The militarist tone of the film is supported by images of mass graves, bones and skulls. Old men, who are calculated to evoke feelings of sympathy, are interviewed. The psychologist expressed his hope that the unsuitability of such a film for such an age group would be realised.


by teveoahora March 1, 2010 1:06 PM EST This is the christian way of living. If there is an incident. You should only read views of christians, testimonies of christians. You should only believe to christians. Oooo, please do not read views/testimonies or muslims, do not believe to muslims, then you lose your christianity. If you are not that narrow minded, please search and read of views and testimonies of Turkish people and writers, release from your prejudices... Turkiye has the most detailed archives about 1915 incidents and they are open to researchers. Do you know that researhes made research on that archives left their prejudices and left believing genocide lies??? Be smart, act with your brain, not with your prejudice...


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 1:04 PM EST HATRED FOR ARMENIANS PROPAGATED IN TURKISH SCHOOLS

Constantinople Patriarchate of the Armenian Apostolic Church summoned a conference to discuss the recent decision of the Turkish Ministry of Education decreed to screen Sari Galin documentary on 'murders of Turks by Armenians' for Turkish schoolchildren.

The documentary is a Turkish view on the Armenian Genocide in the Ottoman Empire. With lots of violence shots, it aims to propagate hatred for Armenians.

43 representatives of the Armenian community of Istanbul have already sent a note to Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan, Normarmara


by OttomanSultan March 1, 2010 1:04 PM EST There was NO Armenian genocide! There was ONLY Armenian crimes against humanity in Karabag-Azerbaijan which happened only 18 years ago. There was ONLY the ASALA-terror which resulted in killing of innocent Turkish diplomats some 30 years ago!!! And there was ONLY the Armenian revolte and collaboration with Russians during WW1 which caused millions of Turkish casualties!


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 1:03 PM EST TURKISH SCHOOLCHILDREN INSTILLED HATRED FOR CHRISTIANS

The Turkish Ministry of Education has issued a new history textbook inciting schoolchildren to persecution of Christians.

The teenagers are taught "to confront Christian missionaries who threaten Turkish national unity and culture."

The Union of Christian Churches of Turkey condemned publication of the textbook, which fills the children with old stereotypes of "Christian conspiracy against Turkey," Regions.ru reports.

Two Christian monks were killed in Turkey in 2007. 4 people were killed in an assault on a Christian mission in Malatia in 2008.


by roveradog March 1, 2010 1:01 PM EST
We are a very sad and sick civilization!!!!!!!!!!!


by algalis March 1, 2010 1:01 PM EST
I PROTEST CBS FOR ONE SIDED STORY. YOU HAVE TO LEAVE THIS ISSUE TO HISTORIANS. TURKS HAVE A LOT OF DOCUMENTS THAT PROVE ERMENIANS KILLED ALOT OF TURKS TOO DURING THE WAR. WHY DID YOU NOT MENTION ABOUT THAT?

WHY DO YOU NOT MENTION ABOUT KHOJALY MASSACRE THAT ARMENIENS DID TO TURKS. THEY KILLED 613 CIVILIANS (106 WOMAN AND 83 CHILDREN) BECAUSE OF THEIR ETHNICITY! WERE THEY NOT HUMAN TO YOU!!!!WAS IT NOT MASSACRE!

ARMENIENIA STILL INVADES TURKS LAND (KARABAKH)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khojaly_Massacre


by armenia33 March 1, 2010 1:17 PM EST
When a group of unarmed Men, Women, and Children are attacked they must defend themselves. In America that is called self-defense. In Turkey they expected people just to sit back and wait until their turn to die was up. The Whole world knows Turkey should be called chicken instead of Turkey.

by OttomanSultan March 1, 2010 12:59 PM EST
What about my relatives who have been brutally murdered by revolting Armenians? Weren't they human either?


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 12:59 PM EST
Robert Fisk: Armenian Orphans were `Turkified', Nazi-Style


The Independent

I am back in Beirut. A Sunday, and Missak Keleshian, an Armenian researcher - actually, he's in love with film and photographs and is a technician by trade - is showing an original archive movie on the Armenian genocide.

It was made by German cameramen in 1918 and 1920. Never before shown. I sit at the back of the big Armenian hall in the Beirut suburb of Dbayeh and the camera tracks across a terrible wasteland of dry hills. Southern Turkey - or western Armenia, depending on your point of view - just after the 1915 genocide of one and a half million Armenians at the hands of the Ottoman Turks. And a woman comes into focus.

She is sitting in the muck and holding her child - alive or dead, I cannot tell. She is weeping and wailing and there before our eyes is the 20th-century's First Holocaust - which our precious US President Barack Obama dare not even call a genocide lest he offends Turkey.

Literally moving proof. Later footage shows 20,000 Armenian orphans in Beirut, 30,000 in Aleppo. Where are their parents? Ask not Obama.

In one extraordinary scene, the orphans of the First Holocaust are sitting at a breakfast table two miles in length. I am both mesmerized and appalled. They smile and they laugh at the camera.

Dr Lepsius, a German working for Near East Relief - how swiftly the good Germans who cared for the Armenians turned into more dangerous creatures - holds the children in his arms.

Outside an orphanage, other children plead for help. Then there is a picture of an orphanage run by the Turks in Beirut in 1915, in which the children, Nazi-style, were `Turkified', given Muslim names to eradicate their identity.

Enough. This will be a big report in The Independent. But there is a long, panning shot across Beirut.

It is Lebanon, 1920; there are tents for the Armenians but the sweep of film shows the port. There are steam ships and sailing ships and the long coast which I see each morning from my balcony.


by taraf35 March 1, 2010 12:57 PM EST adherent program everybody loves tragedy and if u don't find anyone may be u choose "creating one" history looks different for people


by Real-politik March 1, 2010 12:55 PM EST The Genocides of Greeks(pontus and Asia minor),asyrians,alevites and Kurds should also be mentioned and be accepted as ones.


by armenia33 March 1, 2010 1:23 PM EST If you take the time to read books not published in Turkey, then you would see this information. We want justice for Armenians, Kurdish, Greek, Dar fur and all of humanity.

by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 12:53 PM EST Typical turish mentality. You think you can buy and sell everything with money? You think you can blame everyone for all your mistakes? Get in touch with the reality. You spend millions to deny the genocide. All the Armenians and their friends have to do is to record/report the facts. All now post articles proving how the turks spend millions in denying the ARMENIAN GENOCIDE.


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 12:50 PM EST 1. Genocide has no Statute of Limitation.

2. The Armenian massacres took place before and after the creation of the republic of turkey.

3. The republic of turkey has inherited all the wealth stolen from the massacred Armenians. The government of turkey must be held responsible for possessing stolen properties.


4. The republic of turkey is guilty of CULTURAL GENOCIDE.


5. Denial is the final stage of GENOCIDE.


by teveoahora March 1, 2010 12:41 PM EST I would like to learn if any armenian related people or companies gave commercials to CBS related media channels (tv, published or internet). These type of videos are only broadcasted with paying right amount of money paid direct or indirect (by giving commercials)...


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 12:53 PM EST Typical turish mentality. You think you can buy and sell everything with money? You think you can blame everyone for all your mistakes? Get in touch with the reality. You spend millions to deny the genocide. All the Armenians and their friends have to do is to record/report the facts. All now post articles proving how the turks spend millions in denying the ARMENIAN GENOCIDE.

by armenia33 March 1, 2010 1:21 PM EST Then I guess Turkey has ran out of money then. The Turkish government pays millions of dollars to Jewish lobbyists to block the Armenian Genocide bill, but that's alright. The double standard is coming to an end Turkey.

by penbrook75 March 1, 2010 12:32 PM EST to shindirco, COkuaktan, fehmicolpan and timurlang:

Many of these entries were grammatically incomprehensible, but here is a response:

What is genocide? genocide: (Merriam-Webster abridged dictionary) the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group. When men are disarmed and not allowed to defend themselves or their families, women and children are killed, and they are all belong to the same race, and it is done enmasse, whether this group consists of 1,000 people or 1,000,000 people, it is genocide.

The Dashnak party is the result of years of poor treatment of Armenians by the turks as second class citizens, calling them names, using the women, and taking liberties on civilians because Armenians would not give up their Christianity, language or cultures and become turks. At the same time, the Dashnak pledge includes "Mee vakhenar Baji Jahn, yertovoomeh hye fedayeen, ganantz yerpek tzerk chee daloo" (Don't fear Baji Jahn (turkish woman), the armenian defendor promises never to place a hand to the woman."

And yes, to shindirco, do you think Armenians revel in having this history? Do you know how much harder it is to live as a victim than the people who enjoy psychological freedom? This is the greatest tragedy and injustice of all. A victim can not move on past its hurts until his pain is acknowledged, it's human behavior, it's psychology 101.

And yes to COkuatan, I do not hate you, I pity you. Your country has been hurtful to many peoples and still can't admit what they've done is wrong because they/you are afraid of the consequences. You need to play political games to maintain and justify your existence, when the way that your government has arrived at their present state is shameful. Why to this day, are there no mention of Armenians in tourist guides? in turkish history books? the continual destruction of the Armenian race lives on in the hearts and minds of turks by belittling, accusing, denying. I can't blame you, psychologically it is very hard to admit to yourself that you are part of a race of people that committed the documented facts. Armenians were brutally and violently killed in unspeakable ways, I won't go over the laundry list, it's hard to even list, there are so many, every Armenian family has a different story (which you all maintain as made up stories, I don't know how so many people could be lying at once). Many turkish soldiers were prisoners that were set free to help in the campaign. I think turkish so-called soldiers had to view Armenians as inhuman so that they could commit these acts. If you see your victim as a relatable human being, you can not kill them.

turkey's human rights violations, treatment of their literaries, journalists, and Hrant Dink, and of Kurds, to this day, speak for themselves.


by janjik March 1, 2010 12:22 PM EST gurun123, continued...



Lastly, you talk about why should American government care for what happened all those years ago, so many miles away? Frankly that is a very telling statement. Why did they care about Vietnam? Or Korea? Or Sarajevo/Serbia? Quwait? Why do they care about Irak so much? Same reason why it's giving a free pass now to Turkey...because it is in their "interest". The only reason Turkey has such a strong economy is because of its georgraphy. The Bosphorus canal that leads to the sea, being the perfect trade route to landlocked middle East. Turkey lucked out in geography, and because of that they have a thriving economy...good for them. It doesn't mean that Armenia is any less important or any less deserving of mercy and compassion. IT's like saying screw the poor and the sick, let's only take care of the rich. That's not a very "worldy or humane way of thinking, which is why Turkey will never get into the EU no matter how hard they try, unless they concede some things. Firsly they treat the Kurds in such a shamful manner, it is appalling. Secondly, even now, in this day and age, there have been some Turkish scholars, academic historians (not Armenian ones), who have stated that they've concluded as well that genocide occurred...what does the Turkish government do, it calls them traitors and threatens to jail them. Any country that does not allow freedom of speech and freedom of expression is an intolerant country. A country that is intolerant to different views, be it political or social is a dangerous one and it shows that Turkey has something to hide. They won;t even allow open debate about the topic. Turkey loves to talk about how Western an modern and unlike other radical muslim nations they are, yet they use the same silencing techniqes to stop criticism and open discussion. And this is the reason why Turkey will not enter the EU. I have many family friends that are Turkish Armenian, having immigrated to North America in the 1970's. Although they love Istanbul and the hometown they grew up, the culture, the food, the music, the beauty that is Istanbul, they all left because they felt ostrasized, outcast, unable to be fully accepted by the Turkish community. They feel they had no prospects for jobs and future because they are all looked down upon. Even thought their family names were changed during the genocide for turkish family names, aven though they speack perfectly fluent Turkish and are educated, their first names are armenian christian name and not muslim turkish ones, and because of this they have hard time getting jobs and living a good life. My husband still has family there and that is their story. Unfortunately, 95 years later, modern Turkey is still intolerant to differences. If Turkey wants to get in the EU, it has to learn to be more tolerant and to have the same princicples of European cultures (acceptance of minorities, be they of different race, religion, sexual orientation), it has to open its borders to Armenia(as the immigration and border policies would be the ones adopted by EU), it would have to stop the practice of jailing people for speech and expression reasons, and lastly it would have to own up to its deeds (whether to the Armanian, the ethnic Kurds, etc). If they really want to be a modern and peaceful nation, that is what they must do, the rest is just blah, blah, blah...talk with no substance.

Tell all those Ataturk followers, for Peace to rule, their must be forgiveness first. For forgiveness to occur, their must first be an apology...we've been waiting 95 years for it. I think we deserve one.


by janjik March 1, 2010 12:21 PM EST
gurun123, Just because the "new" Republic of Turkey was foudned in 1923, doesn't mean that Turkey gets excused from its past. To become better human beings, we must accept our failures in order to grow and change and to not repeat our mistakes. But Turkey just shoved the evidence under the rug while no one was looking, being too busy with WW1, it gave them perfect timing to take care of the people they didn't like. We were Christians living among Muslims. We were educated and wealthy, and the mass populus resented that fact and their government used that resentment to fuel their agenda by saying the Armenians were being traitorous. Although Armenians may not have agreed with Ottoman Turkey's politics back then, we were never a violent people as a minority living amongst Turkish friends and neighbors. Exactly the same situation as the Jews living in Germany. Have you wondered why the Republic came about in 1923? Maybe it was to get rid of a regime that was tyrannical? Could you not concede that mayhap the predecessors did these things. As modern Turks, you have only been fed the propaganda that your country has given you, that Armenians were Russia's puppets, etc... In fact, Armenia joined the USSR willingly out of desperation during WW1, in order to protect itself from its muslim neighbors with which they have thousands of years of warring history with. This statement you make that "did Turkey just wake up one morning and decide to exterminate" doens't make sense? Their have been thousands and thousands of years of turmoil in that area of the world between the Christian armenians which are completely surrounded by neighboring muslim countries. Religion has long been a fuel for war, compound that by hundreds of years and there is a history and culture of hatred between eachother, regrettably. You say our culture pines over Ararat which belongs to Turkey. Well, just to inform you, Ararat used to belong to Armenia, and any historical map will demonstrate that. During the treaty of Kars, USSR ceded the lands on which Ararat stand to Turkey in exhange for other lands it wanted. Ararat is part of our lore, our songs and stories and books. And we see its majesty beauty from our capital Yerevan, which is why we still talk about it.
Interestingly, you talk about how Armenians have a hatred for Turkey, but it goes both ways. Why does Turkey exercise an embargo on Armenia? Why has it shut its borders to Armenia for trade or psssage? They are the ones that cause us to be landlocked and left with no options. Not only is Armenia surrounded by unforgiving mountains making it difficult for passage, but it is also surrounded by hostile nations that make life very difficult for them. After being trampled on historically time and time again by its muslim neighbors, they are fed up. You talk of terrorist Armenians in Azerbaidjan, they are defending towns that are wholly ARmenian and consist of ancient Armenian cities and holy and sacred grounds (which the Azeris desecreate). After the USSR fell apart, it is normal that neighboring countries fight over land-limits, and that is what was going on. Armenia wanted back its former borders which the Bolsheviks had promised to them, whne the promise was reneiges and Nagorno-Karabagh given to Azerbaidjan, it is no wonder they fight to get it back once USSR collapsed, it is inhabited almost exclusively by Armenians who are fed up of being bullied by others taking away their historical lands. I'm not defending the violence, but let's face it, tribunals and courts mean nothing in those parts of the world...only guns speak unfortunately.
Also, you speak of the diasporan armenians sipping their fancy wines and involving themselves into politics a million miles away...just to let you know...We donate millions of dollars a year for efforts in Armenia to help the country, whether it be schools, orphanages, churches, businesses, arts. We try to fuel toursim by visiting the country and help their economy. (continued)


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 11:55 AM EST
CULTURAL GENOCIDE


VATICAN REACTS TO ARMENIAN MONASTERY DESECRATION


Printed from: http://www.financial...ews.php?id=1880



A decision by the Turkish occupation regime to grant a "license" to operate a recreation centre in the Armenian Monastery of Surb Makar (Saint Makarios) in the Halefka area, north of the Turkish occupied village of Kythrea, has spurred a strong reaction by the Vatican.


Cypriot Government Spokesman Kypros Chrysostomides said today that the government totally agreed with the Vatican's reaction, noting that it was after moves by the government that the desecration of the monastery had come to the attention of the Vatican.


The Spokesman noted that "various protests were made and there has been a reaction on behalf of the Vatican, which says and stresses in its verbal note that the attention of the competent Turkish authorities has been drawn to the specific case, as well as other lamentable incidences."


Chrysostomides added that this was "a severe response, which is not customary on behalf of the Vatican, and the language used is also stern against the occupation authorities."


"We totally agree and it is after actions by the government that the desecration of the monastery has come to the attention of the Vatican," the Spokesman pointed out.


www.financialmirror.com


by Dena191 March 1, 2010 11:54 AM EST The above comment is so sick and disgusting I can't believe CBS allows the post. Its exactly the kind of "logic" that you see here from the Turkish supporters.


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 11:51 AM EST CULTURAL GENOCIDE


THE RAPE OF ANI The Turkish Restorations


The Destruction of the City Walls


In 1995 extensive excavations were started along the length of the outer walls of the city, on both sides of the Lion Gate. The centuries of debris that had accumulated at the base of the walls was cleared away - in some parts this was over 3? metres deep. This was not an attempt to make an archaeological excavation. No archaeologists were present and there was no inspection made of the removed material: it was simply dumped into tipper trucks and taken away. Most of the excavating was done using heavy machinery including bulldozers and shovel excavators.


This work was done as a prelude to a "restoration" of the walls, organised and paid for by the Turkish Ministry of Culture. Restoration in Turkey often simply means destruction followed by a crude rebuilding - many historic monuments have been irreparably ruined


by such "restorations" and the walls of Ani were not to be an exception, as these photographs reveal. In 1998 work on the walls had stopped after (it is said) some condemnation of the end results.


However, local building contractors and politicians (who are often the same people) were making a great deal of money from the "restorations".


In 1999 the process of destruction was resumed on an even bigger scale and the workers now had an on-site stone cutting factory. The walls of this factory were built entirely from stone looted from the ruins!


These "restorations" have nothing to do with preserving the buildings or encouraging tourism, and their appalling results have nothing to do with just bad planning or a lack of knowledge of what should be done. There was never any valid archaeological reason to start the work because the work went against every established practice of modern archaeological conservation.


The truth is that the surviving monuments at Ani are being exploited rather like an open-cast mine for the extraction of money. As long as Ani can be used by Ankara politicians as a conduit to distribute State money into the pockets of their local political and business allies in Kars (Professor Karamagarali has reportedly called them a "Mafia") then the "restorations" will continue until everything in Ani is destroyed.




by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 11:51 AM EST CULTURAL GENOCIDE


THE RAPE OF ANI The Turkish Restorations


The Destruction of the City Walls


In 1995 extensive excavations were started along the length of the outer walls of the city, on both sides of the Lion Gate. The centuries of debris that had accumulated at the base of the walls was cleared away - in some parts this was over 3? metres deep. This was not an attempt to make an archaeological excavation. No archaeologists were present and there was no inspection made of the removed material: it was simply dumped into tipper trucks and taken away. Most of the excavating was done using heavy machinery including bulldozers and shovel excavators.


This work was done as a prelude to a "restoration" of the walls, organised and paid for by the Turkish Ministry of Culture. Restoration in Turkey often simply means destruction followed by a crude rebuilding - many historic monuments have been irreparably ruined


by such "restorations" and the walls of Ani were not to be an exception, as these photographs reveal. In 1998 work on the walls had stopped after (it is said) some condemnation of the end results.


However, local building contractors and politicians (who are often the same people) were making a great deal of money from the "restorations".


In 1999 the process of destruction was resumed on an even bigger scale and the workers now had an on-site stone cutting factory. The walls of this factory were built entirely from stone looted from the ruins!


These "restorations" have nothing to do with preserving the buildings or encouraging tourism, and their appalling results have nothing to do with just bad planning or a lack of knowledge of what should be done. There was never any valid archaeological reason to start the work because the work went against every established practice of modern archaeological conservation.


The truth is that the surviving monuments at Ani are being exploited rather like an open-cast mine for the extraction of money. As long as Ani can be used by Ankara politicians as a conduit to distribute State money into the pockets of their local political and business allies in Kars (Professor Karamagarali has reportedly called them a "Mafia") then the "restorations" will continue until everything in Ani is destroyed.


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 11:50 AM EST CULTURAL GENOCIDE


Local opposition to the restorations is minimal, confined mostly to the


few people in Kars who make a living from tourism. Within much of Turkish society there is a lack of understanding of the concept of an historic monument as understood elsewhere in the world. This must be partially connected to the unimportance given to historical truth in Turkey today. If no value is given to an accurate understanding of the past then objects related to that past have no value. Also, in Turkey, to criticise the powerful is a dangerous thing to do - it is too much to expect just for some old buildings that are not even Turkish.


Outside pressure is also unlikely. From foreign historians and archaeologists the silence has been total. There is no change here -they have been silent for decades, fearful of even mentioning the word "Armenia" lest Turkish officials get to hear of it and deny them their precious research permits for Turkey. Foreign tourists to Ani mostly don't care, would not be in the position to know what has been lost (unless they had visited this website), and are too few in number to matter anyway. The restorations at Ani are politely ignored by most guidebooks (along with the similarly disastrous restorations of nearby places such as the Ishak***** palace and Sumela monastery).


Armenian groups are uninterested in doing anything practical. Many of these groups actually continue to present the lame old reasoning that nothing should be done towards pressuring the Turks on the issue of preserving Armenian monuments because it would only hasten the destruction of the remaining monuments. What has this pathetic policy of inactivity led to during the last few decades - has it saved a single building or has it just provided them with an easy excuse for doing nothing?


1. Archaeological excavations in 1995 - Turkish Ministry of Culture style - click for a larger photo


2. Untrained labourers work unsupervised


3. The Lion Gate before the "restoration" started


4. The Lion Gate after the "restoration"


5. The new stone is very badly worked and is different in colour and texture to the original stone


6. Inside the factory where the new stone is cut: the walls are built from masonry looted from Ani


7. The destruction of the walls continues


Historical texts say simply that the walls of Ani were built during 10th century, but the physical remains shows they were added to many times over the following centuries. Walls were thickened by additional masonry facings - in some places four different faces are revealed by subsequent damage (like the layers of an onion) and earlier crenellations are often "fossilised" within later masonry. The "restorations" have destroyed all of this historical evidence, including building inscriptions. Also destroyed forever is the "patina" of history that these walls once


proudly wore - their outlines softened after centuries of weathering; the marks of thousands of arrowheads inflicted in long forgotten sieges; the glow of the orange stone in the setting sun - all this is now gone. Ten years ago sheep grazed at the base of these walls, on grass covered slopes amid a tumble of fallen masonry - now there is nothing but a sterile wilderness of cement dust and stone chippings.


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 11:48 AM EST CULTURAL GENOCIDE



The Destruction of the Merchant's Palace


In 1999, a "restoration" began on the Merchant's Palace, again organised and paid for by the Turkish Ministry of Culture. The work continued into the following year. It ended in the near total destruction of this monument. There is now far more new stone than original stone in the palace, to the extent that the locals have nicknamed it "the prison" because of its appearance.


There is no archaeological or documentary evidence to show that the walls as rebuilt originally looked like this, and the new building work


resulted in the destruction of large sections of original masonry. Also


destroyed was most of the evidence, in the form of beam holes, of the palace's timber upper floors and outbuildings.


In the year 2000 a "restoration" started on the mosque of Minuchihr and


the destructive restoration of the city walls had reached the Kars Gate. In 2001 the "restoration" of the city walls was extended easward to the Chequerboard Gate. In 2002 the "restoration" moved on to the walls to the east and south of that gate.


8. A photograph of the palace from the 19th century


9. The palace during its destructive restoration


10. Nothing that can be seen here is older that 1999!


12. The palace gateway just before its "restoration"


11. Try to spot any original stonework inside!


13. The palace gateway after its "restoration"


14. The tiles before the restoration


Take a careful look at what the "restoration" has done to the palace's entrance. Notice that all of the original decorative tiles have been removed. A few have been put back, but they are in different positions!


The tile pattern has been altered: it has moved downwards by half a star. Half of the surviving block in the doorway arch has been hacked away, and a large section of the top of the rectangular frame has also vanished.


15. The tiles after the restoration


16. Question - what happens when you pile a lot of new stone onto old and fragile foundations? 17. Answer - the whole structure gets heavier, and heavier, and weaker, and weaker... 18. ...until everything collapses - which means you can get more money for rebuilding it all again!


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 11:45 AM EST
126 HOLOCAUST SCHOLARS AFFIRM THE INCONTESTABLE FACT OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE AND URGE WESTERN DEMOCRACIES TO OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZE IT


At the Thirtieth Anniversary of the Scholar's Conference on the Holocaust and the Churches Convening at St. Joseph University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, March 3-7, 2000, one hundred twenty-six Holocaust Scholars, holders of Academic Chairs and Directors of Holocaust Research and Studies Centers, participants of the Conference, signed a statement affirming that the World War I Armenian Genocide is an incontestable historical fact and accordingly urge the governments of Western democracies to likewise recognize it as such. The petitioners, among whom is Nobel Laureate for Peace Elie Wiesel, who was the keynote speaker at the conference, also asked the Western Democracies to urge the Government and Parliament of Turkey to finally come to terms with a dark chapter of Ottoman-Turkish history and to recognize the Armenian Genocide. This would provide an invaluable impetus to the process of the democratization of Turkey.


Below is a partial list of the signatories:


Prof. Yehuda Bauer
Distinguished Professor
Hebrew University
Director, The International Institute of Holocaust Research
Yad Vashem, Jerusalem


Prof. Israel Charny, Director
Institute of the Holocaust and Genocide, Jerusalem
Professor at the Hebrew University,
Editor-in-Chief of The Encyclopedia of Genocide


Prof. Ward Churchill
Ethnic Studies
The University of Colorado, Boulder


Prof. Stephen Feinstein, Director
Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies
University of Minnesota


Prof. Saul Friedman, Director
Holocaust and Jewish Studies
Youngston State University, Ohio


Prof. Edward Gaffney
Valparaiso University Law School


Prof. Zev Garber
Los Angeles Valley College


Prof. Dorota Glowacka
University of King's Collage
Halifax, Nova Scotia


Dr. Irving Greenberg, President
Jewish Life Network


Prof. Herbert Hirsch
Virginia Commonwealth University


Prof. Irving L. Horowitz
Hannah Arendt Distinguished Professor
Rutgers University, NJ


Rabbi Dr. Steve Jacobs
Temple Sinai Shalom
Huntsville, Alabama
Associate Editor of The Encyclopedia of Genocide


Prof. Steven Katz
Distinguish Professor
Director, Center for Judaic Studies
Boston University


Prof. Richard Libowitz
Temple University


Dr. Marcia Littell
Stockton College
Exec. Director, Scholars' Conference
On the Holocaust and the Churches


Franklin Littell
Emeritus Professor
Temple University


Prof. Hubert G. Locke
Washington University
Co-founder of the Annual Scholar's Conference
On the Holocaust and the Churches


Dr. Elizabeth Maxwell
Executive Director of the International Scholarly
Conference on the Holocaust, London, England


Prof. Erik Markusen
Southwest State University, MN


Prof. Saul Mendlowitz
Dag Hammerskjold Distinguished Professor
of International Law
Rutgers University


Prof. Jack Needle, Director
Center for Holocaust Studies
Brookdale Community College
Lincroft, NJ


Dr. Philip Rosen, Director
Holocaust Education Center of the Delaware Valley


Prof. Alan S, Rosenbaum
Dept. of Philosophy
Cleveland State University


William L. Shulman, President
Association of Holocaust Organizations City University of New York


Prof. Samuel Totten
The University of Arkansas
Assoc. Editor of The Encyclopedia of Genocide


Prof. Elie Wiesel
Andrew W. Mellon Professor in the Humanities
Boston University
Founding Chairman of the United States
Holocaust Memorial Council
Nobel Laureate for Peace


I hereby declare that the originals of these one hundred and
twenty-six signatories are on file in my office. All affiliations
supplied are for identification purposes only.


Dr. Stephen Feinstein, Director,
Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies
University of Minnesota


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 11:43 AM EST
The turkish hysterica to blame 60 minutes for reporting the truth has reached to the limit. Its time to learn what ther others speak of the turks and their denial of the ARMENIAN HOLOCAUST


Arkansas Democrat-Gazette (Little Rock) October 5, 2005 Wednesday

History lesson Turkey and genocide


THE NEXT time a reluctant student or clueless adult says that history doesn't matter, it's time to talk Turkey. As in Turkey the somewhat democratic country that's located mostly in what used to be called Asia Minor.

Over there, a long-festering political sore has broken open. It seems that some of the country's professors are insisting that their countrymen face up to Turkey's dark past, aka the Armenian genocide. An estimated 1.5 million Armenians are believed to have been systematically massacred by the Turks between 1915 to 1923.

It's a touchy subject in Turkey, where national pride in the old Ottoman Empire still runs strong. To accuse the old regime of practicing genocide is an accusation still so offensive that participants arriving at the conference on the subject were pelted by fresh eggs and rotten tomatoes.

It seems the history of events now almost a century old still reverberates. Turkey is up for membership in the European Union, and the Union has objected to the difficulties organizers encountered in setting up such a conference on Turkish soil. The conference had to be canceled twice, once by Turkey's minister of "justice" and a second time by a Turkish court. The minister accused those organizing the conference of "stabbing the people in the back." The court demanded to know the academic qualifications of those who would speak at the conference. Free speech this isn't.

The meeting did finally get off the ground, but the European Union still has questions about just how free its newest candidate for membership may be. The consequences of trying to censor an ugly past aren't just emotional. It turns out they're economic and political, too.

The excuses for refusing to deal with the past are all too familiar by now. What's the point, the apologists ask. It's all ancient history. Those living today-at least most of them-aren't responsible. They didn't participate in those crimes. But the simplest excuse of all is the falsest: It never happened. The Turkish version of denial goes like this: Yes, some Armenians may have died back in the bad old days. But not as many as the critics claim, and lots of Turks also died in the unrest that came with the First World War and the collapse of Ottoman rule.

Such denial is common in Japan, too. That society has yet to fully face its crimes against humanity during the Second World War and the runup to it. The Rape of Nanking is an especially horrific example. In what some Japanese textbooks now call an "incident," Japanese troops systematically slaughtered the Chinese residents of Nanking in a six-month orgy of violence in 1937-38. An estimated 150,000 to 300,000 died. The Japanese may downplay it, but the Chinese aren't about to forget. Neither should the rest of the world. Incident, indeed.Compare the way the Japanese have played down their past with Germany's response to the Holocaust. Bitter as it had to be, the German government accepted that nation's responsibility for the Holocaust. That doesn't change what happened, but it provides an opportunity for conciliation and even redemption. Facing the past is the first step toward freeing ourselves of its iron grip. It is truth, not denial, that sets us free.

Turkey has a long way to go. But this conference in Istanbul shows that at least a few Turks are willing to look at the past. That way lies a better future.


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 11:41 AM EST WORLDWIDE TAX OVERVIEW


by Cathy Phillips, editor of Tax Notes International





THE ULTIMATE DEATH TAX (page 915)


Wealth taxes are common in many countries, and represent one of the oldest forms of taxation. Local governments in the United States, for instance, levy annual property taxes. Annual wealth taxes are levied in several European countries as well. The estate tax is the only wealth tax levied by the U.S. government and applies to wealth held at death. The wealthy are at times also taxed at progressive tax rates on their earnings in addition to being exposed to wealth taxes. Governments levy those taxes to diversify their sources of revenues, augment and protect the income tax base, and regulate the distribution of income and the concentration of wealth. Governments may resort to additional taxes in times of national emergency.


A general guiding principle for any tax system is that it should be sufficiently transparent to enable a taxpayer to construct the size of wealth or income subject to tax, as well as the ensuing tax liability. For local property taxes, for instance, cities inform property owners of the assessed value of their real estate and the amount of tax they owe. For income and estate taxes, taxpayers report the amount of income received and the size of terminal wealth to the government. Once the taxable amount is established, a tax rate schedule is applied to determine the tax liability. Taxpayers are able to appeal assessments and are given adequate time to prepare their documents and make provisions for paying the amounts owed.


A student of taxation may encounter many fascinating features of the various taxes levied throughout history, dating back to ancient Egypt and the Roman Empire. Yet no tax system rivals the peculiarities of a tax employed in the middle of the 20th century. On the morning of November 12, 1942, the citizens of Turkey woke up to the most draconian wealth tax ever envisaged. While the tax in theory applied to the entire predominantly Muslim nation, in practice much of its burden rested with the minority Christian and Jewish communities who primarily resided in Istanbul, formerly known as Constantinople. Neither the rate of taxation nor the taxable base and its derivation were made public. Tax assessments were arrived at in secret, and individuals were directed to settle their government assessed liabilities within two weeks, without any appeal provisions in place. The penalty for Christians and Jews who failed to do so within a month was deportation to forced labor camps in eastern Turkey in addition to having their property confiscated. The tax was initially also extended to Christian and Jewish schools, as well as to churches and synagogues, but not to Muslim institutions, because they were owned or funded by the government. As documented by Faik Okte, the Turkish Ministry of Finance official in charge of implementing the tax, assessments were determined arbitrarily because the authorities lacked information on the income and properties of the minority groups./1/


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 11:39 AM EST WORLDWIDE TAX OVERVIEW

by Cathy Phillips, editor of Tax Notes International



Table 1: Statutory Tax Rates


Provision Applied to Applied to Rate on wartime profit Muslim Turks Non-Muslims 12.5 percent 50.0 percent Additional tax zero Up to 50 percent of personal wealth


Source: Faik Okte, The Tragedy of the Turkish Capital Tax.


Description of the Tax


The Turkish National Assembly passed the tax on November 11, 1942 (Law 4305/12.11.1942), and its decision to levy the tax was published the next day in the government official newspaper, Resmi Gazete. The details of the structure and inner workings of the tax were kept secret by the government. The details, however, were revealed and made public some five years after its enactment in a book authored in 1947 by Okte. In that book Okte also traced the architects of the tax and named all the governmental agencies and personnel engaged in administering the tax.


In an otherwise officially secular state, taxpayers were classified as Muslim and non-Muslim, denoted with the letters M and G, respectively./2/ The latter included Jews and Christians, including Armenians and Greeks. Assyrian Orthodox Christians also fell in that class. An additional class of taxpayers were the Donme, denoted by D. The Donme were Jews whose ancestors had converted to Islam in the 17th century./3/ Like the Jews and Christians, the Donme were taxed at rates higher than those that applied to Muslims. Foreigners were taxed at the same rate as Muslim Turks.


During that period, Greeks were the largest minority group in Turkey, and represented the heirs to Byzantium with Constantinople as its capital. The Armenians originated from western Armenia or the eastern half of Turkey, and represented the descendants of the first Christian nation. The presence of the Jews also predates that of the Turks, whose ranks had been augmented by Ladino Jews from Spain during the Inquisition. The Assyrians are originally from southern Turkey and modern-day Syria and Iraq; their presence also predates the arrival of the Turks from central Asia. Combined, those non-Muslim groups made up less than 1 percent of Turkey's population of 18 million in 1942.


The tax was initially envisaged as a tax on capital or wealth. It was to apply to businesses and real estate (immovable property). By the time it was enacted, it had expanded to include a tax on wages as well that effectively applied only to non-Muslims in Istanbul. Taxpayers were classified according to business type and property earnings. Within the Ministry of Finance, once the size of income, wealth, and type of enterprise were established internally, local assessment boards secretly determined the amount owed by the taxpayer.


The Finance Ministry was responsible for setting the tax rates to be used in computing tax assessments. Minorities were generally to be taxed at 5 to 10 times the amount applied to Muslims with similar wealth. Specifically, Muslims were to be taxed at the rate of 12.5 percent of profits or earnings. In contrast, non-Muslims were to be statutorily taxed at the rate of 50 percent of earnings plus an additional tax of up to 50 percent of their wealth (Table 1)./4/ The reach of the tax also extended to hospitals and educational institutions. The tax did not extend to Muslim institutions, because they were owned or funded by the government.


While internal "guidelines" set minimum and maximum limits, the local boards at the Finance Ministry were free to choose any amount in between. Indeed, they had complete discretion in setting assessments. Information on income and wealth were obtained from Turkish national banks, the Republican People's Party, and the Security Directorate, which is equivalent to the U.S. FBI. Despite the lack of information on the sources of wealth and income, taxpayer records were not requested or considered when setting assessments.


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 11:37 AM EST WORLDWIDE TAX OVERVIEW II

by Cathy Phillips, editor of Tax Notes International


Table 2: Initial Assessments in Istanbul (Constantinople)


Group Number of Taxpayers Amount (TRL
millions)
Extraordinary Rich
Muslims 460 17.3
Non-Muslims 2,563 190.0
Those With Earnings Statements
Muslims 924 3.1
Non-Muslims 1,259 10.4
Profit Tax on Gross Earnings
Muslims 2,589 4.0
Non-Muslims 24,151 72.8
Wage Earners
Muslims -- --
Non-Muslims 10,991 6.9


Subtotal 42,937 304.5
Muslims 3,973 24.4
Non-Muslims 38,964 280.1


Source: Faik Okte, The Tragedy of the Turkish Capital Tax.


The assessed tax was due in cash within 15 days from its published date of December 17, 1942. Payments could be postponed for another 15 days, but would face a charge of up to 2 percent interest. If the tax due was not fully settled within 30 days of assessment, the taxpayer's property was to be confiscated. Furthermore, the taxpayer was to be sent to a labor camp until his debt was discharged, under Regulation 21/19288 approved on January 12, 1943.


The Taxpayers


By August 1943 the tax assessments stood at some TRL 335 million in Istanbul alone, or about one-half the entire currency in circulation. Indeed, those assessments represented as much as the entire budget revenues of TRL 394.3 million for 1942 before enactment of the tax. Table 2 provides a summary of the number of taxpayers assessed and the amount of assessments in Istanbul. Some 42,937 taxpayers were assessed a total of TRL 305 million, as shown in Table 2./5/ Of those, only 3,973 were Muslims, who were assessed a total of TRL 24.4 million. In other words, minorities who made up less than 1 percent of the population were assessed 93 percent of the liability. Table 3 further provides assessments for churches, synagogues, and schools./6/


In a survey of foreign chambers of commerce at the time, C.L. Sulzberger, writing for The New York Times in 1943, documented the discriminatory nature of the tax./7/ As illustrated in Table 4, the effective rates of assessments that merchants faced varied considerably from a low of under 5 percent for Muslims to over 150 percent for Christian Greeks and Jews, to well over 200 percent for Christian Armenians. Similarly, in one large enterprise, only 1.2 percent of the Muslim employees were assessed compared with 96.1 percent for minority citizens.


As illustrated by the head of the Finance Ministry and the person in charge of implementing the tax, Faik Okte, assessments were determined in arbitrary manners because the authorities lacked information on the income and properties of the minority groups./8/ The arbitrary nature of the tax is best illustrated in the treatment of the "extraordinary rich." According to Okte, Mr. Bezmenler, whose ancestors converted from Judaism to Islam in the 17th century and who was classified as a Donme, was assessed TRL 1 million. In contrast, Dr. Cudi Birtek, an extraordinarily wealthy Muslim, was assessed only TRL 25,000, a mere fraction of the amount applied to the Donme./9/ In yet another example, Osman Sakar, K.S. was originally assessed TRL 120,000. When Mr. Sakar proved that he was a "pure Turk" or a Muslim, his tax liability was adjusted downward to TRL 12,000 -- just 10 percent of the originally published amount./10/ Those mistakes were not uncommon because all citizens were forced to adopt Turkish-sounding surnames in 1935 and because Turks have come to resemble more the Caucasians they conquered and less their Asiatic ancestors from central Asia.


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 11:36 AM EST WORLDWIDE TAX OVERVIEW II

by Cathy Phillips, editor of Tax Notes International

Table 3: Tax Assessments of Minority Institutions


Christian and Jewish Institutions/*/ Number Assessment (TRL) Schools 88 227,550 Churches and Synagogues 27 119,200 Hospitals 7 86,750


/*/ Zero assessment for Muslim institutions, which numbered in the thousands.


Source: Faik Okte, The Tragedy of the Turkish Capital Tax.


The discriminatory and confiscatory nature of this tax is also evident in the treatment of non-Muslim institutions. According to Sulzberger, a poorly equipped Armenian hospital in Istanbul, for instance, was assessed TRL 39,000 compared with an assessment of TRL 2,500 for a modern and thriving American hospital. Muslim institutions avoided taxation altogether./11/


Tax assessments were seriously flawed in particular because they failed to consider any documents from the taxpayer. The tax due from a Christian Armenian timber merchant, for instance, was three times his entire fortune. The tax administrator informed him that his deportation to the labor camp could not be prevented, even after all his wealth had been confiscated./12/ At times the tax burden widely diverged in its arbitrariness. A Jewish taxpayer had his tax assessment increased simply because he argued with an assessor. In another example, a Christian Armenian "was taxed excessively at the rate of TRL 400,000," reflecting "the false allegation that he was the leader of the Armenian Tashnag Society, an old member of the Union and Progress Party," better known in the West as the Young Turk regime that governed Ottoman Turkey from 1909 through the end of World War I./13/ At the other extreme, another Armenian was exempted from the labor camp because he had written "favorable articles promoting Turkish interests in the French press."/14/


The punitive nature of the tax was at times also extended to foreigners. While foreigners were supposed to be taxed at the same low rate as Muslims, many in fact were taxed at the higher rates that applied to minority citizens. According to Faik Okte, the principal administrator of the tax, that treatment was deliberate. He reports that tax administrators were instructed to deny the foreigners' "privilege" to Jews from the Axis states./15/ In addition, and under "the pretext of the poor registration system," the property of Greeks and Armenians who had acquired foreign citizenship was immediately auctioned off./16/


Of the first 45 deportees to labor camps, 21 were Jews, 13 were Greeks, and 11 were Armenian. After the first deportation, it was decided that the "elderly, women, the sick, foreign residents . . . would not be exempted from the forced labor obligations."/17/ However, there are no records of any women or foreigners ever sent to labor camps.


Table 4: Effective Tax Rates by Religious and Ethnic Affiliations


Merchants by Affiliation Tax Rates (percent)
Muslim 4.94
Greek Orthodox 156.00
Jewish 179.00
Christian Armenian 232.00


Source: C.L. Sulzberger, "Turkish Tax Kills Foreign Business,"
The New York Times, Sept. 11, 1943.


Concluding Comment


by aramanoogian March 1, 2010 11:36 AM EST
Fatcatmehmet wrote: "If historians can prove the positive INTENT on extermination of Armenians, I suppose no Turk would hesitate to accept the fact."
Armenians and Turks have already done this between July 2001 and April 2004 with the help of a U.S. State Department via the Turkish-Armenian Reconciliation Committee (TACR). In January 2003 the findings of a third-party study commissioned by them were released. The International Center for Transitional Justice (ICTJ), a New York-based human rights organization, ruled that the slaughter of some 1.5 million Armenians fits into the internationally accepted definition of genocide.

What more do we have to do?

Thank you 60 minutes for reporting the truth and showing the world some of the indisputable facts of the Armenian Genocide. It?s clear that you have done your homework.



by slmart March 1, 2010 11:34 AM EST
How dare you say that "your Grandmother is a liar". That means mine was also, no way. Admit the truth Turkey, and the truth will set you free...A PROUD ARMENIAN AMERICAN....


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 11:34 AM EST
WORLDWIDE TAX OVERVIEW III

by Cathy Phillips, editor of Tax Notes International


Shortly after the government published its declaration to levy the wealth tax, a Turkish professor contacted the Finance Ministry to inquire about the details of the new tax. "Have you all gone mad?" was his response after confirming that the new law did not provide for appeals nor did it indicate rate of taxation./18/ Despite its insanity, the tax shook the economy to its foundations.


Many Muslims were enriched by acquiring non-Muslim property at bargain prices. However, those fire sales, or outright "confiscation" by state-owned enterprises, often hindered economic growth and entrepreneurship. Consider the case of the Banzilar and Benjamen Company, a shipping company owned by two Jews that was forced to turn over all of its five ships to the state-owned Maritime Lines in lieu of taxes totaling TRL 1.6 million. Despite the rising value of ships and Turkey's vast needs, those ships, which were productively employed by their previous owners, remained idle at port./19/ In another example, the majority of textile factory owners at the time were either Jewish or Donme converts from Judaism. Yet, after World War II and repeal of the tax, non-Muslim textile start-ups came to a screeching halt./20/


The Turkish wealth tax was advanced as part of a strategy to control prices during the inflationary early years of World War II. The thinking was that the forced sale of property and inventory within a fortnight of the assessments would depress prices. Yet not only did that misguided strategy fail to depress prices, the discriminatory nature of the tax and the taxation of an entrepreneurial group to certain bankruptcy led to a serious loss of confidence in the state and rattled financial markets for years to come.


by slmart March 1, 2010 11:31 AM EST It is a sad commentary that a nation cannot come to terms with the truth. At least the German people admit the Holocaust. No is saying that the Turkey today is the same of yore, but not being able to admit the truth makes one wonder that no wisdom was derived from the genocide....


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 11:31 AM EST INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF GENOCIDE SCHOLARS -II





3) In 1997 the International Association of Genocide Scholars, an organization of the world's foremost experts on genocide, unanimously passed a formal resolution affirming the Armenian Genocide.


4) 126 leading scholars of the Holocaust including Elie Wiesel and Yehuda Bauer placed a statement in the New York Times in June 2000 declaring the "incontestable fact of the Armenian Genocide" and urging western democracies to acknowledge it.


5) The Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide (Jerusalem), the Institute for the Study of Genocide (NYC) have affirmed the historical fact of the Armenian Genocide.


6) Leading texts in the international law of genocide such as William A. Schabas's Genocide in International Law (Cambridge University Press, 2000) cite the Armenian Genocide as a precursor to the Holocaust


and as a precedent for the law on crimes against humanity.


We note that there may be differing interpretations of genocide - how and why the Armenian Genocide happened, but to deny its factual and moral reality as genocide is not to engage in scholarship but in propaganda and efforts to absolve the perpetrator, blame the victims, and erase the ethical meaning of this history.


We would also note that scholars who advise your government and who are


affiliated in other ways with your state-controlled institutions are not impartial. Such so-called "scholars" work to serve the agenda of historical and moral obfuscation when they advise you and the Turkish Parliament on how to deny the Armenian Genocide.


We believe that it is clearly in the interest of the Turkish people and


their future as a proud and equal participant in international, democratic discourse to acknowledge the responsibility of a previous government for the genocide of the Armenian people, just as the German government and people have done in the case of the Holocaust.


Sincerely,


[signed] Robert Melson Professor of Political Science President, International Association of Genocide Scholars


[signed] Israel Charny Vice President, International Association of Genocide Scholars Editor in Chief, Encyclopedia of Genocide


[signed] Peter Balakian Donald M. and Constance H. Rebar Professor of the Humanities Colgate University


by ArattaWorld March 1, 2010 11:29 AM EST INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF GENOCIDE SCHOLARS


President: Robert Melson (USA) Vice-President: Israel Charny (Israel) Secretary-Treasurer: Steven Jacobs (USA) Respond to: Robert Melson, Professor of Political Science Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN 47907 USA


April 6, 2005


Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan TC Easbakanlik Bakanlikir Ankara, Turkey FAX: 90 312 417 0476


Dear Prime Minister Erdogan:


We are writing you this open letter in response to your call for an "impartial study by historians" concerning the fate of the Armenian people in the Ottoman Empire during World War I.


We represent the major body of scholars who study genocide in North America and Europe. We are concerned that in calling for an impartial study of the Armenian Genocide you may not be fully aware of the extent


of the scholarly and intellectual record on the Armenian Genocide and how this event conforms to the definition of the United Nations Genocide Convention. We want to underscore that it is not just Armenians who are affirming the Armenian Genocide but it is hundreds of


independent scholars, who have no affiliations with governments, and whose work spans many countries and nationalities and the course of decades. The scholarly evidence reveals the following:


On April 24, 1915, under cover of World War I, the Young Turk government of the Ottoman Empire began a systematic genocide of its Armenian citizens - an unarmed Christian minority population. More than a million Armenians were exterminated through direct killing, starvation, torture, and forced death marches. Another million fled into permanent exile. Thus an ancient civilization was expunged from its homeland of 2,500 years.


The Armenian Genocide was the most well-known human rights issue of its


time and was reported regularly in newspapers across the United States and Europe. The Armenian Genocide is abundantly documented by thousands


of official records of the United States and nations around the world including Turkey's wartime allies Germany, Austria and Hungary, by Ottoman court-martial records, by eyewitness accounts of missionaries and diplomats, by the testimony of survivors, and by decades of historical scholarship.


The Armenian Genocide is corroborated by the international scholarly, legal, and human rights community:


1) Polish jurist Raphael Lemkin, when he coined the term genocide in 1944, cited the Turkish extermination of the Armenians and the Nazi extermination of the Jews as defining examples of what he meant by genocide.


2) The killings of the Armenians is genocide as defined by the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.


by fehmicolpan March 1, 2010 11:28 AM EST 4

So, it is not surprising that both the book of Hovannes Katchaznouni, the first prime-minister of the Armenian state, ?Dashnagzoutiun Has Nothing to do Anymore? and the book of K.S.Papazian ?Patrionism Perverted? are banned in Armenia. It is also a fact that all the copies of the book of Hovannes Katchaznouni, in all languages were collected from the libraries in Europe by Dashnags. The book is included in the catalogues but no copies can be found in the racks.


It is not surprising either that, the Armenians even claim that nobody called A.A. Lalayan, the Soviet-Armenian historian, ever lived!


Yes, they can ban the books of the makers of their history, they can buy politicians by their votes and urge them to accept historical resolutions and memorial laws in their parliaments, they can threaten the historians who do not support their thesis, they can sue them, they can even bomb their houses (http://209.232.239.37/gtd1/ViewIncident.aspx?id=56624), they can make the world opinion blind by their propaganda and may deceive some of them, but they can never ban scholar thought and silence all the historians of the world!



Note that Pierre Nora, president of the association ?Liberty for history? founded in 2005, has recently stated that the history should not be a slave to currency or written under the dictation of competing memoirs; in a free state, it does not belong to any political authority to define the historical truth and restrict freedom of the historian under threat of criminal sanctions. In a democracy, freedom for history is the freedom of all (http://www.lph-asso.fr//articles/46.html, . http://www.lph-asso.fr//tribunes/49.html)


by fehmicolpan March 1, 2010 11:26 AM EST 3 KS Papazian the writer of ?Patriotism Perverted? published in 1934, in Boston was also a denier. Because: Papazian critized A. Khatisian and the then prime minister S.Vratzian for not publishing the text of Treaty of G?mr? which they signed on December 2, 1920 to put an end to the war between Turkey and the Armenian Republic on December 2, 1920, which coincided with the entrance of Bolsheviks in Armenia.

Papazian also stated that the Armenian prime minister Simon Vratzian applied to the Turkish government on March 18, 1921 and asked military help of the Turks against the Bolsheviks!

Even Gourgen M?g?rd?? Yan?kyan (age 78), the Armenian murderer of Los Angeles prime consul of Turkey Mehmet Baydar (age 49) and the co consul Bahad?r Demir (age 30) in Santa Barbara, in 1973, was a real denier, Turkish nationalist and agent of Turkish government. Because he admitted in his trial on June 13, 1973, via his attorney Lindsay that he (Yan?kyan) had been a member of an army made up of 10 000 volunteers to fight against the Turks in Armenia, in the beginning of March 1915 and in chief of this army had been an Armenian general called Andranik.


This had been prepared as four parties and had started to battle with the Turks in I?d?r, under the leadership of Russian general Dron and had proceeded to Van, they had occupied Van and meanwhile had destroyed and had fired Turkish villages (D??i?leri Bakanl??? santa barbara suikasti. telephone from washington embassy to the turkish foreign ministry, 15.6.1973, no:220 and june 21, 1973. no:225)

of course, even these few examples give great harm to the present armenian thesis and lead people to question the armenian?s innocence, their predominance in ottoman population, and most importantly their genocide thesis. of course, the fact that turks offered the dashnaks an autonomous armenia (made up of russian armenia and the three turkish vilayets of erzurum, van and bitlis) under the suzerainty of the ottoman empire?, if they joined the turkish side and stopped supporting the russians, the other fact that the executive committee of the dashnagzoutiun rejected the proposal in august 1914 before the war broke and that they rejected all other turkish calls of negotiations repeated during wwi too, are the major points that are not wanted by the armenians to be known

(garo past?rmac?an, why armenia should be free?, boston, dec.1918, hairenik publishing company p. 16-17 and papers relating to the foreign relations of the united states the paris peace conference 1919 , united states government printing office, 1948, vol iv, p 139-157).


of course they fear a question of why the turks did offer autonomy to armenians if they decided to eradicate them. and they fear the question of why and how the armenian prime minister simon vratzian applied the turkish government on march 18, 1921 and asked military help of the turks against the bolsheviks, in spite of the fact that the turks committed a (so-called) genocide and murdered 1.5 million armenians!

and they also are very frightened of the question how the ottoman government eradicated 1,5 million of armenians but in spite of this it was the ottomans who first conceived the idea of founding an independent armenia, and recognized it first. moreover, it was the ottoman sultan who first wished not only the development of armenian republic, but that she be strong in order to retain her independence! astonishingly, it was the ottoman sultan, who stated that friendly relations would always exist between the two countries

that is, the armenian ancestors who created their history (the top representatitives of the ottoman armenians, dashnags and prime ministers of armenia), the armenian historians and poets who wittnessed this period and even the armenian murderers of turkish diplomats are the main deniers!


by arattaworld march 1, 2010 11:24 am est adana massacres--- i


the adana massacres of 1909, whose 30,000 victims are being commemorated on the centenary of their death this year, are of special significance to the armenians of cyprus since a large proportion of them are descendants of the 1915 genocide survivors from adana who found refuge in cyprus, and who still consider themselves "adanatsi". in larnaca, the armenian church of st. stephanos, built in 1913, is dedicated to the 1909 victims. massacres of armenians in turkey were nothing new, in fact about 15 years earlier, the hamidian massacres of 1894-96 had claimed tenfold that figure and had shown the lack of enthusiasm of the european powers for taking any effective preventive action. it must be mentioned however that the american missions, whose members were eyewitness to the events, saved countless lives through their valiant efforts on the ground and their very effective fund-raising back home. earlier massacres had been more local affairs, usually the result of periodic kurdish raids on helpless villages and small towns. some were opportunistic, "pacifying" operations by local governing *****s whose main aim was to raise revenue by pillage and extortion to recoup the large sums (some would call them bribes), which they had to pay the porte to obtain their posts. the russian empire, whose primary foreign policy objective was to gain access to the mediterranean through ottoman territory, found a convenient pretext for intervening in ottoman affairs by assuming the role of protector to the christian population. the european powers, led by great britain, fiercely opposed any russian expansion into the mediterranean and wanted any pieces of the slowly collapsing ottoman empire for themselves. hence they supported the sultan. the armenians, caught in the middle, had great hopes on the constitutional changes forced on the reluctant sultan by the european powers. however, these changes were on paper only and were largely ignored by the porte. it was in this context that cyprus was ceded to great britain in 1878 in return for promised british protection against russia.

some time ago, i came across and purchased a letter written by the commissioner of kyrenia of the time, w.n. bolton, which reveals a macabre link between cyprus and the adana massacres of 1909. the letter, written on cream coloured notepaper blind embossed with the british coat of arms, is apparently in response to an enquiry by harry lukach, private secretary to the governor of cyprus hamilton goold-adams. today, he is better known as sir harry luke, having changed his surname to luke in 1919. subsequently, he had a highly successful career in the colonial service and authored numerous books mainly on the middle east where he served in cyprus, armenia (1920), jerusalem, malta etc. his books are full of anecdotal material of his experiences in the places he served in, and show his compassionate interest in the people he came in contact with.


by arattaworld march 1, 2010 11:23 am est
adana massacres ---ii


kyrenia 30th january, 1912

"dear lukach, i have just been looking up the inquests held in my district in 1909 on unknown bodies washed up by the sea. the first case was in the first week in may on the body of a man washed ashore near lapithos. this body was much decomposed but had two bullet wounds one in the neck and one in the abdomen just above the groin. the two next both males came ashore one at ayios ambrosios & one at ayios epiktetos but i do not think there were any marks showing cause of death. no 4 was the body of a little girl about 6 to 8 years her head had been smashed in by some heavy weapon like a hammer or a pick. as far as we could tell from their dress they were all armenians. dr. fuleihan now ast d.m.o. nicosia was the officer who examined the bodies and might if you want it give you more information. besides these there were several bits on which i did not hold inquests. and i also believe a very large number came ashore in the carpas. i cant write owing to gout which i am glad to say is getting better but very slowly. i sent you a wire about the lapithos road on saturday as williams was over in the p.w.d. motor on friday & told me it was quite passable with care, since when they have been hard at work mending it so it should be quite all right.yours sincerelyw.n.bolton".

it is interesting to note that the adana massacres started in early april and bodies started to get washed up in cyprus about a month later. today the fiction being propagated by the turkish state is that there was no genocide in 1915 and that deaths occurred on both sides as a result of fighting between armenians and turks. they further claim that the deportations, during which some "unfortunate" deaths occurred, were necessary for the security of the ottoman empire. they neglect to mention that most of the fit armenian men, who had been conscripted into the ottoman army in 1914, were later disarmed, transferred to labor battalions, and subsequently executed. the fighting claimed by the turkish state only took place in a few mountainous regions when the ottoman army tried to enforce the deportation orders of 1915. we see here another example of reversal of facts employed by the turkish state similar to that of claiming the bodies of armenian victims exhumed from mass graves were those of turks killed by armenians! the final destination of the entire armenian population of anatolia, consisting mostly of older men, women, and children, was the small oasis town of der zor in the middle of the syrian desert! very few were fit or lucky enough to reach there. the majority were killed on the way or died of thirst, starvation or exhaustion during the forced marches, as was intended by the ottoman government.


by fehmicolpan march 1, 2010 11:23 am est
2
armenian messrs. ahonian and hadissian who were the spokesmen of the armenian delegation of the new armenian republic and visited sultan mehmet vi, vahdeddin in istanbul on september 6, 1918 were also turkish nationalists. see the telegram sent by mr ahorian to the armenian prime minister kachaznuni:


?on september 6th, we presented our congratulations on his accession to the throne. we submitted our best wishes for the development of the empire and its well-being and stated that the armenian nation would never forget that it was the ottoman government which first conceived the idea of founding an independent armenia, and recognized it, that the armenian government would do everything possible to protect friendly relations between the two countries and to strengthen them. his majesty thanked and stated that he was very happy at seeing the envoys of independenbt and free armenia, that he wished not only her development , but that she be strong in order to retain her independence. his majesty is entirely convinced that friendly relations will always exist between the two neighboring countries, turkey and armenia, in order that both of them may develop. he concluded his remarks by stating that he was very hapy to see that armenia had the strength to found an independent state which was able to send envoys to istanbul, and repeated his best wishes for our country?. (erich feigl, a myth of terror, edition zeitgeschichte freilassing, salzburg, austria p.97)


the armenian soviet historian a.a.lalayan who stated that the dashnaks displayed extreme courage to massacre turkish women, children and ill and old people (contrarevolyutsionn?y ?da?naktsutyun? ? ?mperialisti-?eskaya voyna 1914-1918 gg.?, revolyutsionn?y vostok, no.2-3, p.92, 1936) and who also quoted the following report of a dashnag officer, aslem varaam written in 1920, in beyazit-varan was an armenian denier and he was also hired by the turkish government .


the report of aslem varaam was
"i exterminated the turkish population in bashar-gechar without making any exceptions. one some times feels the bullets shouldn't be wasted. so, the most effective way against these dogs is to collect the people who have survived the clashes and dump them in deep holes and crush them under heavy rocks pressed from above, not to let them inhabit this world any longer. so i did accordingly. i collected all the women, men and children and extinguished their lives in the deep holes i dumped them into, crushing them with rocks."

a.lalayan, revolutsionniy vostok (revolutionary east) no: 2-3, p.92 vd, moscow, 1936; istoricheskie zapisky no 2, p.101, 1928
armenian t. ha?iko?lyan who told that the dashnaks eradicated thousands of turks with their bloody hands (t. ha?ikoglyan, 10 let armyanskoy sttrelkovoy divizii ,p4-6. ?zdatelstvo polit. uprav. kka, tiflis, 1930) was also a denier and agent of turkish government.

the armenian poet mikael nalbandyan who wrote these lines in his poem ?the march of people of zeytun, was another denier and turkish nationalist:

?..?ad ?sdrugner ye?an azad/miyayin menk mnank h?lu h?badag/zeytuntsiner mer zposank/e baderazm yev ar?avank/ sur, tur, k?ntag yev h?ratsan/ mer kha?alik?n en havidyan?.?

(a lot of slaves were set free/ only we were left who were obedient/amusements of us, people of zeytun are/ war and raid/ our inexhaustible toys are/ sword, saber, bullet and gun??.) (nor knar, p99). zeytun was one of the places where the armenians rebelled and massacred the turks and muslims.

the armenian journalists of armenian newspapers published in ?stanbul, like hayrenik, were also deniers, since they praised the ottoman government for letting the relocated armenians return their previous locations in 1918 and allocated 2 million liras for their return. they were deniers since they also critized the russians and other states for using the armenians as their tools.



by fehmicolpan march 1, 2010 11:21 am est
1
whoever tells about topics which obviously abolish their imaginary past, are labelled as ?deniers?, as ?agents of turkish government?, or ?people hired by the turkish government? or ?disingenous scholars/authorities? turkish nationalists?, ?turkish racists?. and, here are the names of armenians who comply with the these terms:

?garo pasdermichan (pastirmaciyan), the ottoman deputy of erzurum and commander of all the armenian officials and soldiers of the ottoman third army which joined the russian army in 1914, was the main denier and turkish racist. because, he wrote in his book ?why armenia should be free? (boston, dec.1918, hairenik publishing company p. 16-17) that annual congress of armenian party dashnagzoutiun was held in erzurum in august 1914, before the war broke, and turkish emissaries offered dashnaks an autonomous armenia (made up of russian armenia and the three turkish vilayets of erzurum, van and bitlis) under the suzerainty of the ottoman empire?, if they joined the turkish side and stopped supporting the russians. he also stated that the executive committee of the dashnagzoutiun rejected the proposal! the other armenian members were e.aknouni, the representative from van, a.vramian, and the director of the erzurum armenian schools rostom

the armenian members of this parley were the well-known publicist e.aknouni, the representative from van, a.vramian, and the director of the armenian schools in the district of erzurum, mr rostom.
the other armenian members were e.aknouni, the representative from van, a.vramian, and the director of the erzurum armenian schools rostom


another main denier was boghos noubar pasha, the armenian national delegation president in the paris peace conference 1919 who also stated that the turks offered them autonomy in august 1914, much before the deportation, but they rejected this proposal and placed themselves without hesitation on the side of the entente powers from whom they expected liberation [papers relating to the foreign relations of the united states the paris peace conference 1919 (united states government printing office, 1948, vol iv, p 139-157)].


(ks papazian the writer of ?patriotism perverted? published in 1934, in boston, also confirms this turkish suggestion. note that ?patrionism perverted? is banned in armenia).
*the decision of the deportation of armenians was a rightful measure taken by turks.
*turkey had acted with an instinct of self-defence.
*their government was a dashnak dictatorship.
*the fault was within the dashnak party. they should commit suicide. they had nothing to do.

vratsyan, the last prime minister of dashnaks who wrote in an article published in december 3 1920 issue of ara?, that they transformed armenia to an arenna of endless wars with its neighbours for the entente powers (rgasp? fond 80, list 4, file 83, sheet 136) was another chief denier and agent of turkish government.


by sgvotruba march 1, 2010 11:16 am est
concerning the recent report about the ?battle over history.? i would like to express my observation of the poor quality of scientific evidence presented:
?historians? are referred to, but only one?s view was featured. furthermore, this individual proclaims himself as armenian, which puts his impartiality into question. the ?gas chamber? cave is particularly ineffective, being that the hypothesis is supported apparently primarily by a bishop, and no further evidence is provided, even to the antiquity of the cave.
concerning the bones in the sand, that the bones indeed belonged to humans was not provided support. are you sure you were not digging the trash heap of the local butcher? or, perhaps the remains of a pilfered ancient graveyard? i suggest that scientific research be undertaken on this site.
in light of the weakness of evidence, discussion should however move forward concerning the organized movement of the armenian populations, which your report rightly shows is an agreed upon historical fact by both populations. although not fitting with your provided definition of ?genocide,' it successfully emptied central turkey of its armenian population. organized unilateral movement of populations is, in my mind, immoral. -greg


by janjik march 1, 2010 11:11 am est
our ancestors were scattered all over the world 95 years ago, becoming refugees all over the world, carrying with them horrific stories of what had befallen them. 95 years later, we are a population that remains wounded, unable to heal. how can we forgive and move on if the perpetrators of our ancestors' murders, rapes and massacres refuse to apologize for the atrocities they executed upon us. our cultural endeavors are a tribute to our survival and even if the rest of the world wants to erase what happened to us by not giving it its rightful name, we keep it alive with our culture, with our song, our poetry, our art, our hearts. the turks claim that armenians were a casualty of ww1 and that both sides suffered. if the turks were indeed victims of armenian violence as they like to fabricate, where are the following: why are there no international records of mass refugees of turks? why are there no turkish songs and poetry and book and stories that tell of their suffering? where are the commemorations and dedications? why are their hundreds of thousands of life insurance policies for armenian persons that have no body or record of death listed? why would a people that were prosperous and happy minority in turkey suddenly spread out all over the world, penniless, orphaned, sickly, dying. all of us diasporan armenians have heard the stories from our grandparents / great grandparents of the horrors they went through as children. their parents' slaughter, their mothers' and sisters' rapes and murders, the decapitated and eviscerated men. over recent years, as the youngest of these survivors near the end of their life, we fear the loss of this accounted history. it is a crime to deny the jewsih holocaust, yet it seems fine to the rest of american society that we keep calling our genocide a tragedy, a war casualty...anything but its real name. the real reason why turkey doesn't want to name it a genocide as it should rightfully be? they don't want to be financially responsible for it. the jews have collected lands and monies from tribunals from the germans, and they don't want to go through the same thing. in the meantime, usa loves to talk about justice, but because of its military dependance on turkey for its middle eastern efforts, and because of its economic dependance on the the oil countries and turkey's role in that, armenians continue to be denied their history. then we get the added insult of usa telling us to look beyond it, get over it and set up diplomatic ties! imagine a neighbor walks into your home, rapes and kills your paretns, wife and kids, takes your home and business and your worldy possessions, then kicks you out on the street with nothing in the hopes that you will die from starvation and exposure, and then denies it forever. would you be able to forgive and move on? although there are countless reports from 1915 in the new york times and other papers and documents (oncluding photographs) of what happened to the armenians, the turks continue to deny it relentlessly...and although i commend 60 minutes for airing this report, it is very telling that any media reports of this nature are always broadcast at time slots that have low viewership (interestingly the other networks were showing the olympic closing ceremonies). all of the us, including the networks and media, are bowing down to turkey's lobbying and bullying, instead of standing up for truth and justice. i know turkey wishes we would all just disappear and that their image was not tarnished by our hated selves, so that they could join the eu and have a hunky dory life, but you cannot silence us...we will never forget.


by ostelci march 1, 2010 10:56 am est
dear bob simon,

thank you for the animation. we really laughed a lot....

are you also planning to make a programm on "hodjali massacre"? or on "asala terrorism" i advise you not to lose time with battle of history or toy story...

dear lynnavdoyan,

please let me know why your greatmothers ottoman citizien son was in the french foreign legion? what was he doing there? fighting against his country? i am waiting your reply with great interest....

the ottoman armenians were collaborationists and betrayed to the ottomans and their country ottoman empire during the i. world war this is why they are forced to emigration by the goverment.

you were the unforgiven and will always remain same.
if we had wanted to massacred the armenians none of them would have remained alive. you know why? because since this world exists, we turks, have never left our mission uncompleted.
keep this always in mind
usa congress should understand that they cant discipline the turks with an armenian toy story

cbc moderators i hope you will let my comment pass from your system...


by aramism march 1, 2010 10:34 am est
ok. there are still a lot of jews living in poland and germany and throughout europe. what's your point. just because a genocide or holocaust isn't totally successful to wipe out an entire race doesn't make it not a genocide or holocaust.


by usc2010 march 1, 2010 10:23 am est
if you don't mind me asking, which village was your great-grandmother elizabeth from? my grandfather was a boyajian (spelled the same) was from kharpert.


by ashnyc march 1, 2010 10:22 am est
gurun123,

yes they did fail to mention much.

such as the greek's and assyrians in the area who were also wiped out.

you ask about what happened prior to 1915?

"the hamidian massacres, also referred to as the armenian massacres of 1894?1896, refers to the massacring of armenians by the ottoman empire, with estimates of the dead ranging from 80,000 to 300,000[1], and at least 50,000 orphans as a result.[2] the massacres are named for abdul hamid ii, whose efforts to reinforce the territorial integrity of the embattled ottoman empire reasserted pan-islamism as a state ideology"


you ask why the protocols are unraveling?
might it have something to do with the pre-conditions turkey has set... such as not going through with anything until armenia and azerbaijan figure out the nagarno karabagh issue.
that is like armenia telling turkey they have to fix the cyprus issue before moving forward. one issue has nothing to do with the other.

he also failed to mention how the ottoman turkish govt rounded up the armenian heads of state, killed them leaving the entire population open to slaughter, or how prior to all of the killings their weapons were confiscated

the asala was funded by the diaspora, really?

where exactly is your proof of this?

"turkey blamed cyprus, greece, syria, lebanon, and the soviet union of provoking or possibly funding the asala, though nothing of this sort was ever found to be true"


the turkish ambassador admitted to the march through the desert, where exactly were all of these people heading off to, a picnic?


by ashnyc march 1, 2010 10:16 am est
gurun123,

yes they did fail to mention much.

such as the greek's and assyrians in the area who were also wiped out.

you ask about what happened prior to 1915?

"the hamidian massacres, also referred to as the armenian massacres of 1894?1896, refers to the massacring of armenians by the ottoman empire, with estimates of the dead ranging from 80,000 to 300,000[1], and at least 50,000 orphans as a result.[2] the massacres are named for abdul hamid ii, whose efforts to reinforce the territorial integrity of the embattled ottoman empire reasserted pan-islamism as a state ideology"


you ask why the protocols are unraveling?
might it have something to do with the pre-conditions turkey has set... such as not going through with anything until armenia and azerbaijan figure out the nagarno karabagh issue.
that is like armenia telling turkey they have to fix the cyprus issue before moving forward. one issue has nothing to do with the other.

he also failed to mention how the ottoman turkish govt rounded up the armenian heads of state, killed them leaving the entire population open to slaughter, or how prior to all of the killings their weapons were confiscated

the asala was funded by the diaspora, really?

where exactly is your proof of this?

"turkey blamed cyprus, greece, syria, lebanon, and the soviet union of provoking or possibly funding the asala, though nothing of this sort was ever found to be true"


the turkish ambassador admitted to the march through the desert, where exactly were all of these people heading off to, a picnic?


by nikulah march 1, 2010 10:16 am est
wow, we love 60 minutes and watch your program specifically on how typically unbiased your reporting is.

bob simon, you really let us down. this episode really had us shocked, and left us disappointed with the program as a whole. leaving us to doubt your real goal as a fair reporting organization. you neglected to include any real voice from the turkish community. you are only upping the ante for every second, third, fourth etc. generation armenian with a cause that quite possibly has been way over-exaggerated.

regardless of your stance on turkish armenian 100+yr. old story, you insisted on sympathizing with one side. giving the only defense to the turkish people to an ambassador, who from very second you began your interview you were throwing stones. your reporting on this issue was far from fair.

additionally, there was very little mention about this happening over the course of a very economically poor time period when there was no money to even feed the soldiers themselves. with everyone walking in the snow in the mountains of eastern turkey?which as anyone can imagine, how this possibly transpired. (not in spring to summer as mentioned.) ?and to even go so low as to include the words ?nazi germany? in this conversation is? wildly over the top.

sadly, you?ve created another platform for the world to throw stones and your reporting was completely as unbiased, dare i say, as fox news. 60 minutes, please consider revising your story and updating it with the other perspective.


by fatcatmehmet march 1, 2010 10:06 am est
it's very sad to see a reliable network like cbs to run such a biased story. turkish government has invited armenian historians for a work-group authorised to access all national archives, noting that this is a matter of history not politics. but they didn't show. all they do is to agitate around the world. it's a cheap lie to claim that all ottoman documents has been deleted.

if historians can prove the positive intent on extermination of armenians, i suppose no turk would hesitate to accept the fact.

by the way, please someone also mention how they pissed the ottomans off by switching to the enemy side during the battles of wwi!


by aramanoogian march 1, 2010 11:36 am est
fatcatmehmet wrote: "if historians can prove the positive intent on extermination of armenians, i suppose no turk would hesitate to accept the fact."
armenians and turks have already done this between july 2001 and april 2004 with the help of a u.s. state department via the turkish-armenian reconciliation committee (tacr). in january 2003 the findings of a third-party study commissioned by them were released. the international center for transitional justice (ictj), a new york-based human rights organization, ruled that the slaughter of some 1.5 million armenians fits into the internationally accepted definition of genocide.

what more do we have to do?

thank you 60 minutes for reporting the truth and showing the world some of the indisputable facts of the armenian genocide. it?s clear that you have done your homework.


by lynnavdoyan march 1, 2010 9:53 am est
as a second generation armenian, i can confirm from countless stories that more horror stories about the genocide of peaceful armenians occurred. my greatgrandmother elizabeth boyaijian was taken on a forced hunger march into syria by the turks where she died of starvation and was put into a mass grave on the syrian boarder. her son got there 3 days after her death while he was in the french foreign legion. i have heard stories about turks taking the men of a village, tie them up and then run over them with horses and swords until the bodies and blood were part of the earth, turks would find pg women and bet on the sex of the unborn babies and then slice up their bellies and hold the baby on the end of their swords. one woman i knew lost her 3 children to the turks before she found her way to the usa and started another family. there accounts all came from women and men who escaped. whole towns were destroyed. when this excuse for an ambassador says what he does, he is admitting what happened in a political way." terrible things happened", so what did he think happened? our hushing this to appease the turkish government is akin to denying justice for the one and a half million people who lost their lives. i lost an aunt, 8 uncles on both sides, a grandmother and countless others that i will never know about as my grandmother would get upset each time she recounted the stories toward the end of her life here.


by usc2010 march 1, 2010 10:23 am est
if you don't mind me asking, which village was your great-grandmother elizabeth from? my grandfather was a boyajian (spelled the same) was from kharpert.

by jda-1 march 1, 2010 9:39 am est
cbs failed to account for the trauma imposed on valorous turkish soldiers forced to kill armenians. they lived the rest of their lives with psychic pain, as armenians would often not die quickly enough, and the blood stains were hard to clean. these were the true victims, no indemnity was ever paid to the poor turkish soldiers for their pain.


by dena191 march 1, 2010 11:54 am est
the above comment is so sick and disgusting i can't believe cbs allows the post. its exactly the kind of "logic" that you see here from the turkish supporters.

by jda-1 march 1, 2010 9:34 am est
your grandmother was a liar, or you are


by gurun123 march 1, 2010 9:21 am est
it is very disapponting to see a program like 60 minutes that promotes quality journalism to air a piece like this. standing over a mound with bones in syria with an armenian "writer" and an armenian "dentist" and without any evidence of any sort to liken republic of turkey to nazi germany is beyond any form of human decency let alone journalistic ethic.?

there is a number of facts that should have been included that were "somehow" missing. first of all, while dink was shown as a martyr who was murdered, there was no mention of asala, a terrorist organization recognized by department of state, who was funded by armenian diaspora responsible for killings of innocent people including many turkish diplomats and americans as well. the murder of dink is a crime and is being prosecuted in a court of law. just to be clear, i condemn all acts of violence. however, people remembering dink's murder at the hands of extremist nationalists should also remember many people assasinated at the hands of extremist armenians all around the world.

secondly, bob simon mentions that recent agreements between armenia and turkey are unraveling but fails to explain why. the agreements were negotiated by and were signed in the presence of us secretary of state, foreign ministers of france, russia and eu high representative. all terms of the agreement are accepted by the two sides in writing however armenian diaspora labeled the armenian president a traitor trying to improve relations with turkey. he now has to be protected in his own country against these extremists who are threatening to kill him. the armenian senate even recently passed a law giving the president the sole power to back out from an international agreement. no wonder why talks are failing.


by jda-1 march 1, 2010 9:39 am est
cbs failed to account for the trauma imposed on valorous turkish soldiers forced to kill armenians. they lived the rest of their lives with psychic pain, as armenians would often not die quickly enough, and the blood stains were hard to clean. these were the true victims, no indemnity was ever paid to the poor turkish soldiers for their pain.

by ashnyc march 1, 2010 10:16 am est
gurun123,

yes they did fail to mention much.

such as the greek's and assyrians in the area who were also wiped out.

you ask about what happened prior to 1915?

"the hamidian massacres, also referred to as the armenian massacres of 1894?1896, refers to the massacring of armenians by the ottoman empire, with estimates of the dead ranging from 80,000 to 300,000[1], and at least 50,000 orphans as a result.[2] the massacres are named for abdul hamid ii, whose efforts to reinforce the territorial integrity of the embattled ottoman empire reasserted pan-islamism as a state ideology"


you ask why the protocols are unraveling?
might it have something to do with the pre-conditions turkey has set... such as not going through with anything until armenia and azerbaijan figure out the nagarno karabagh issue.
that is like armenia telling turkey they have to fix the cyprus issue before moving forward. one issue has nothing to do with the other.

he also failed to mention how the ottoman turkish govt rounded up the armenian heads of state, killed them leaving the entire population open to slaughter, or how prior to all of the killings their weapons were confiscated

the asala was funded by the diaspora, really?

where exactly is your proof of this?

"turkey blamed cyprus, greece, syria, lebanon, and the soviet union of provoking or possibly funding the asala, though nothing of this sort was ever found to be true"


the turkish ambassador admitted to the march through the desert, where exactly were all of these people heading off to, a picnic?

by gurun123 march 1, 2010 9:20 am est
third of all, there isn't any context at all of what happened before and during world war i. it seems as if ottoman leaders just woke up one morning and decided to "exterminate" armenians just because they felt like it. there were hundreds of different ethnic and religious groups living under ottoman rule for centuries, including jews, christians, etc. many nations including armenians prospered under the protective rule of the ottoman empire while protecting their culture. however, when the empire started to crumble, armenians decided to side with russians who were invading ottoman empire at the time alongside with british, italians, french, etc. armenian militia attacked turkish villages, conspired against the ottoman army fighting the russians in the east. just like any country under attack, ottomans sought to protect its borders and forced armenians to move. people died, it was winter of 1915 during world war i. while any death is regrettable, denying 600 years of protection and prosperity under ottoman rule and to claim an empire consisting of hundreds of nations is responsible for coordinated genocide is just absurd. additionally, whatever happened, happened in 1915 where the republic of turkey was founded in 1923.

what?is armenia to gain from all this animosity against turkey? armenian national identity is just defined by it. the country is land locked and is at war with azerbaijan. the founding constitution of armenia calls for annexing large portions of turkey. the coat of arms of armenia depict mount ararat, a landmark within borders of turkey. there are more armenians living abroad than that live within armenia. this so-called armenian diaspora has significant political influence over mainland armenia. while armenians living in mainland try to survive on $1000 annual income, the armenian diaspora keep promoting the conflict while sipping red wine in their cozy los angeles beachside houses with no regards to the struggle of their fellow countrymen. as long as ordinary armenians don't break the influence of the diaspora and start thinking for themselves, there won't be any progress. the conflicts of the past just hold nations back. armenians should recognize that they were just pawns of the russians back during the world war i and that they are still taken advantage of. it is to the benefit of both turkey and armenia to work together and prosper together instead of using resources for conflict. ? ?

few other facts to mention: turkey is the 17th largest economy in the world, a member of g-20 club of most developed nations, has the second largest army in nato that protected all western europe against a soviet invasion while armenia was a part of soviet union where most of them now speak russian. armenia's all military supplies come from russia. so much for preserving their identity under just a century of russian rule. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??

bob simon wouldn't have asked why eight secretaries of state opposed a legislation if he chose not to ignore the above facts. i think his ignorance of history is not related to his lack of knowledge but probably more related to his bank account.?

finally, i fail to comprehend how airing a piece like this enhances daily lives of ordinary americans. it seems congress or senate don't have anything better to do than to sort out who killed who a century ago on the other side of the planet while they should actually be focusing their time on healthcare, unemployment or education.?

to conclude, "journalistic" pieces like this appear right about this time every year however i expected more from 60 minutes than to be a puppet of armenian diaspora. pieces like this just increase hatred while doing little to improve peace in the world. the piece constantly emphasized armenians being a christian ethnic minority while referring ottomans as muslims as if to say they were "exterminated" just because they were christians. any responsible journalist should promote understanding rather than provoke emotions. this piece is really a shame for what 60 minutes stands for. modern turkey will continue on her path to prosperity and cooperate with any country who seeks to better the lives of its citizens through peace. armenia is more than welcome to be a partner in her journey. there is not a better way to finish than quoting ataturk, founder of the republic of turkey, "peace in the country, peace in the world."


by janjik march 1, 2010 12:21 pm est
gurun123, just because the "new" republic of turkey was foudned in 1923, doesn't mean that turkey gets excused from its past. to become better human beings, we must accept our failures in order to grow and change and to not repeat our mistakes. but turkey just shoved the evidence under the rug while no one was looking, being too busy with ww1, it gave them perfect timing to take care of the people they didn't like. we were christians living among muslims. we were educated and wealthy, and the mass populus resented that fact and their government used that resentment to fuel their agenda by saying the armenians were being traitorous. although armenians may not have agreed with ottoman turkey's politics back then, we were never a violent people as a minority living amongst turkish friends and neighbors. exactly the same situation as the jews living in germany. have you wondered why the republic came about in 1923? maybe it was to get rid of a regime that was tyrannical? could you not concede that mayhap the predecessors did these things. as modern turks, you have only been fed the propaganda that your country has given you, that armenians were russia's puppets, etc... in fact, armenia joined the ussr willingly out of desperation during ww1, in order to protect itself from its muslim neighbors with which they have thousands of years of warring history with. this statement you make that "did turkey just wake up one morning and decide to exterminate" doens't make sense? their have been thousands and thousands of years of turmoil in that area of the world between the christian armenians which are completely surrounded by neighboring muslim countries. religion has long been a fuel for war, compound that by hundreds of years and there is a history and culture of hatred between eachother, regrettably. you say our culture pines over ararat which belongs to turkey. well, just to inform you, ararat used to belong to armenia, and any historical map will demonstrate that. during the treaty of kars, ussr ceded the lands on which ararat stand to turkey in exhange for other lands it wanted. ararat is part of our lore, our songs and stories and books. and we see its majesty beauty from our capital yerevan, which is why we still talk about it.
interestingly, you talk about how armenians have a hatred for turkey, but it goes both ways. why does turkey exercise an embargo on armenia? why has it shut its borders to armenia for trade or psssage? they are the ones that cause us to be landlocked and left with no options. not only is armenia surrounded by unforgiving mountains making it difficult for passage, but it is also surrounded by hostile nations that make life very difficult for them. after being trampled on historically time and time again by its muslim neighbors, they are fed up. you talk of terrorist armenians in azerbaidjan, they are defending towns that are wholly armenian and consist of ancient armenian cities and holy and sacred grounds (which the azeris desecreate). after the ussr fell apart, it is normal that neighboring countries fight over land-limits, and that is what was going on. armenia wanted back its former borders which the bolsheviks had promised to them, whne the promise was reneiges and nagorno-karabagh given to azerbaidjan, it is no wonder they fight to get it back once ussr collapsed, it is inhabited almost exclusively by armenians who are fed up of being bullied by others taking away their historical lands. i'm not defending the violence, but let's face it, tribunals and courts mean nothing in those parts of the world...only guns speak unfortunately.
also, you speak of the diasporan armenians sipping their fancy wines and involving themselves into politics a million miles away...just to let you know...we donate millions of dollars a year for efforts in armenia to help the country, whether it be schools, orphanages, churches, businesses, arts. we try to fuel toursim by visiting the country and help their economy. (continued)

by janjik march 1, 2010 12:22 pm est
gurun123, continued...



lastly, you talk about why should american government care for what happened all those years ago, so many miles away? frankly that is a very telling statement. why did they care about vietnam? or korea? or sarajevo/serbia? quwait? why do they care about irak so much? same reason why it's giving a free pass now to turkey...because it is in their "interest". the only reason turkey has such a strong economy is because of its georgraphy. the bosphorus canal that leads to the sea, being the perfect trade route to landlocked middle east. turkey lucked out in geography, and because of that they have a thriving economy...good for them. it doesn't mean that armenia is any less important or any less deserving of mercy and compassion. it's like saying screw the poor and the sick, let's only take care of the rich. that's not a very "worldy or humane way of thinking, which is why turkey will never get into the eu no matter how hard they try, unless they concede some things. firsly they treat the kurds in such a shamful manner, it is appalling. secondly, even now, in this day and age, there have been some turkish scholars, academic historians (not armenian ones), who have stated that they've concluded as well that genocide occurred...what does the turkish government do, it calls them traitors and threatens to jail them. any country that does not allow freedom of speech and freedom of expression is an intolerant country. a country that is intolerant to different views, be it political or social is a dangerous one and it shows that turkey has something to hide. they won;t even allow open debate about the topic. turkey loves to talk about how western an modern and unlike other radical muslim nations they are, yet they use the same silencing techniqes to stop criticism and open discussion. and this is the reason why turkey will not enter the eu.
i have many family friends that are turkish armenian, having immigrated to north america in the 1970's. although they love istanbul and the hometown they grew up, the culture, the food, the music, the beauty that is istanbul, they all left because they felt ostrasized, outcast, unable to be fully accepted by the turkish community. they feel they had no prospects for jobs and future because they are all looked down upon. even thought their family names were changed during the genocide for turkish family names, aven though they speack perfectly fluent turkish and are educated, their first names are armenian christian name and not muslim turkish ones, and because of this they have hard time getting jobs and living a good life. my husband still has family there and that is their story. unfortunately, 95 years later, modern turkey is still intolerant to differences. if turkey wants to get in the eu, it has to learn to be more tolerant and to have the same princicples of european cultures (acceptance of minorities, be they of different race, religion, sexual orientation), it has to open its borders to armenia(as the immigration and border policies would be the ones adopted by eu), it would have to stop the practice of jailing people for speech and expression reasons, and lastly it would have to own up to its deeds (whether to the armanian, the ethnic kurds, etc). if they really want to be a modern and peaceful nation, that is what they must do, the rest is just blah, blah, blah...talk with no substance.
tell all those ataturk followers, for peace to rule, their must be forgiveness first. for forgiveness to occur, their must first be an apology...we've been waiting 95 years for it. i think we deserve one.

by lapitak march 1, 2010 9:07 am est
during 1st world war a lot of bad things took place. many turks were expelled from the balkan countries they have settled for centuries for instance, kurds and armenians before the 1st world war had many clashes related with posession of the land they lived together, many conflicts took place. turkish government as a result decided to relocate armenians during war time. considering the result of that action can that be called genocide ? maybe. but it is definitely not at a level of holocaust,and trying to connect them is the new agenda of armenian diaspora after their ugly asala terror attacks. current generation of turks or their respected governments along with their armenian counterparts are willing to leave the past behind and build diplomatic relations despite the fact that armenians not a century ago but very recently butchered several azeris who are the closest people to turks and then ridiculously claimed it is actually the continuation of genocide done by turks!!
asking for justice and spreading racial hatred covered with blames are different things. for the time being the latter interest armenian americans more and their puppet guy who makes this programme.
what they don't know is they are doomed to fail!!!


by petera35 march 1, 2010 7:43 am est
dear cbs,

it's not your first programme on this issue where you are supporting one part, the armenians. i would suggested another programme where it shows both sides views on the issue. please look into this link in youtube: sari gelin(english)-bolum 1(so called genocide).

it shows the issue from lots of international professors who are giving more depth into the issue.


by erdobey march 1, 2010 7:22 am est
dear sir,

i am very sad. do you about rurk?sh people h?story. i am sure you are not. i suggest you to search about turk?sh people h?story and of course the ottoman emp?re h?story. in the f?rst war in the world there was tragic actions. turk?s people don't ?ntend to do genoc?de about other people. hovewer jew?sh people l?ved in the ottoman emp?re lands. why they don't talk about them like this action. i refused all th?s. before you should read h?story before making l?ke th?s programme.

bye


by timurlang1402 march 1, 2010 7:18 am est
http://www.armenian-history.com/books/arm-pop-ottoman-emp.pdf please read


by harry_roberts march 1, 2010 7:16 am est
wow, never having heard of this issue before, i have to admit the hysterical comments by pro turkish holocaust deniers make me think that the armenians have a point.
they killed many people in a genocide many years ago. admit it, grow up and move on. turkey can't be taken seriously until it it gets over itself.

by kefji march 1, 2010 7:03 am est
thank you for presenting the segment on the armenian genocide. i am a first generation american armenian whose parents and grandparents were able to escape the atrocities that turkey denies. history validates us as do many who have had the courage to speak up - especially turkish intellectuals! the turkish diplomat in the interview did nothing to support the turkish point of view - rather, i thought, he tried to white-wash the issue by speaking and saying nothing of value.


by kefji march 1, 2010 7:02 am est
thank you for presenting the segment on the armenian genocide. i am a first generation american armenian whose parents and grandparents were able to escape the atrocities that turkey denies. history validates us as do many who have had the courage to speak up - especially turkish intellectuals! the turkish diplomat in the interview did nothing to support the turkish point of view - rather, i thought, he tried to white-wash the issue by speaking and saying nothing of value.


by timurlang1402 march 1, 2010 6:58 am est
doesnt genocide mean to exterminate???? why is there still at least 150000 armenians living in turkey still??? history has 2 sides to a story


by aramism march 1, 2010 10:34 am est
ok. there are still a lot of jews living in poland and germany and throughout europe. what's your point. just because a genocide or holocaust isn't totally successful to wipe out an entire race doesn't make it not a genocide or holocaust.

by timurlang1402 march 1, 2010 6:51 am est
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/proportions_des_populations_en_asie_mineure_statistique_officielle_d1914.png look at this link and please add up the number of armenians it is less than 1,500,000 these are actual population stats from 1914!


by timurlang1402 march 1, 2010 6:36 am est
first of all a very biased video the turkish government opened the ottoman archives to the armenian government and the armenians refused to open theres so how can you say that ???? armenians claim 1 and half million armenians died if you look up wikipedia there is a map there showing how many armenians were living in the ottoman empire as the ottomans had annual censuses there is a total of 1,200,000 so how can you say that 1,500,000. stop causing issues usa you should worry about your own history first like how you guys killed innocent arabs in the middle east and native indians and the african americans. this is all propoganda


by ottomansultan march 1, 2010 6:05 am est
the so-called "armenian massacre" is a huge lie. we should not pull everything out of context and base our conclusion to one particular event in history. we should see this as a whole to see the big picture. look, in the first world war, the ottoman empire was being attacked by several imperial powers, like england, france, italy, russia etc... in that time, the armenians living in the western parts of the ottoman empire were loyal ottoman citizens while armenians in the east collaborated with russian invading forces massacring millions of turkish citizens. this turkish massacre commited by armenians lasted for more than a decade. in the first world war, this killing intensified and as a result the ottoman parliament decided to transfer armenians of the east to other parts. the proof for this is the vast amount of armenians living in lebanon and other parts of the middle east. so, most of them were not killed but survived the journey. unfortunately, during this operation some armenians died because of the situation the ottoman empire was in, but this can by no means be called a genocide. it is not a systematic killing of a group of people, but rather a tragic accumulation of drastic events. the armenians in the west still live in the western parts of turkey which is also a proof that a genocide did not happen....


by yilmkara march 1, 2010 5:51 am est
"genocide", i would like to ask from 60 minutes, how much they are financially supported by armenian diaspora, first of all. how come only armenian resources are welcomed to program to tell what has happened and they could tell their story as long as they wish but turkish council could just say ?yes? or ?no?. why they don't go deeper in the history and tell what armenians did against ottomans with french and russians, how all started? what armenians are still doing in karabag to azerbaijan people against un laws and declarations while expecting "justice" from others?
why 60 minutes doesn't tell, how many turkish politics were killed in the heart of the europe by armenian diaspora between 1930-1970, who just told their opinion? if people could do these what they could do at 19 century?

turks never say sad& bad things happened in our land and we are sorry for that. unfortunately, world was suffering in that time, not only the turks and armenians. millions were dying yearly bases around the world and citizens were killing their own as civil war. and why ottomans haven?t killed millions in europe, balkans, northern africa hundred of years as ruler and did it only for armenians!

orginally i am from eastern turkey (near to armenia) and my grand mother was telling always how armenians were killing turks and kurds then also..

turkey and armenia has started to have negotiations for peace and there is no reason to bomb it from outside by people who are not even leaving in those countries.

history shall not be written by politics, people based on their own benefits. that is why; a neutral commission with historians shall be established to decide what really happened and how. turkey offers it all the time but how come armenians don?t like to idea at all even they are 150% sure on ?genocide?

also usa and french are very wrong countries to get input for our history before they clean up their own mass in vietnam, northern africa and iraq..


by jda-1 march 1, 2010 9:34 am est
your grandmother was a liar, or you are

by cokuzaktan march 1, 2010 5:44 am est
penbrook75, why this hatred? are you sure all you have read is true? come on, move on, and learn a bit about turks. i am fair skinned and blue eyed turk, and although i don't deny at all our asian roots, i dont see how i relate to my mongolian ancestres. times pass, people change, and get mixed. embrace it, and leave living in history. thats dangerous


by timeforpeace march 1, 2010 5:42 am est
people are going to believe what they know in their hearts to be true. yes, i guess it was war and people died on both sides but what about proportionality? if for 100 years the turkish government has refused to acknowledge what happened then they will never change their opinion. the american government for all their resolutions can't jeopordize their relations with turkey due to its location.
the armenian survivors know what happened and that can't change either. yes, there were casualties on both sides as i have been told and the armenian deaths have been recorded by the americans, the british etc. i wonder when wars will end. many of the survivors, my father for one, refused to talk about what happened, in his words "no one should know what i saw." meaning i don't want to talk about it and he never did except one time and it was tearful. governments make decisions and their soldiers comply and who suffers everyone especially the average citizen who only wants to live in peace. i have been to turkey only once with my parents, enjoyed visiting with relatives and whether or not the turkish government acknowledges genocide occurred, it won't change for me, i would never want to reclaim land, or anything else. i was born in america, my father was an american soldier during world war ii for four years and i am grateful for the opportunities my family has had here.
i have had enough heartache in knowing what happened to my family members in turkey. it seems unlikely that the turkish government will be admitted to the eu and are members of nato only because of the location of the country.
there will always be disputes among historians and that will be for the individual reader to determine what they believe based on facts. all history is written by man and everyone interprets it differently based on information provided them. rhetoric and disputes will occur but let's face it the facts will always remain based on eye witnesses. let's not forget the past but we can't let it consume our lives as it will only bring more resentment and frustration. i think the middle east will remain like some parts of the world a place of unrest due to religious differences and anything else governments determine. i for one am glad i live in a country that has a separation of church and state, it makes life much easier. hatred solves no problems and as my father used to say, "in the name of god people kill one another."
i think 60 minutes has wonderful journalists and i greatly appreciate investigative reporting in order to inform us of the truth.
the report was informative and sad, i learned much, even stuff i didn't know and i have studied middle eastern history. unfortunately, it made me sad and based on the comments i have read thus far in this blog i don't see reconcilliation, the temperment is not there, and for the armenians too much hurt.
may we have peace on earth, someday.


by cokuzaktan march 1, 2010 5:40 am est
dear all,

couple of points to consider:

1) armenian diaspora is hysterically fixed to this event, as this is the sole reason for their identity / existence. and therefore cooking this issues over and over again, and unilaterally accusing turks is only self-serving to those armenians overseas, but it is counter-productive for both turks and armenians who need to live next to each other

2) i am puzzled to hear all armenians are so adamant that they are right about the historical facts and the turks are wrong. come on guys, i am sure there is always different sides to the story

3) it was war time, and it is easy to judge this kind of things from a peaceful couch at home. we have seen how american feelings towards tolerance, democracy and human rights have changed over night after 9/11 when they felt they were under attack. it was war time in turkey, and armenians were banding up with the enemy ! imagine us is in war with china, and california is banding up with china, how would you feel. remember what us government did to its own japanese citizens during ww2?

3) i am a turk, i read a lot on this issue. i am sure what i read is not 100% right as the history is always re-written by those who have self-interests, who are powerful (like iraq story will be re-written for new generations). i don?t doubt killings have happened. but marking it as genocide, and comparing it with nazis is a bit extreme, and emotional. come on, you have seen what has happened to bosnia, and it was officially decided that it was not a genocide. what spanish did to mexico, what english did to american indians, what french did to algeria is not genocide, but this is genocide. i think people are looking for scapegoats, and armenians happened to have money and political power, they are doing the much noise? so nothing else is genocide, but nazis and turks are the most evil?? i have no problem going through all mass killings in the history if it will serve to any purpose, but let?s be fair.

4) if you doubt that ottomans were tolerant to minorities, explain me this. greeks were under turkish rules for over 400 years, arabs were for 500, bulgarians 400. calculate this right it is around 20 generations. and they are still speaking their own language and they are still practicing their own religions. how would that have been possible if they were imposed islam by turks? do you see lots of mayans, speaking maya and practicing their own religion in mexico. it took about 100 years to exterminate all. same with pretty much all native indians, australians natives, and much of africa.

i suggest get rid of this hatred, and lets live together. it has been 100 years now, and neither i am responsible for what has happened nor anyone else. let?s move on.

dogan



by shindirco march 1, 2010 5:38 am est
here facts

armenian terrorist gangs i. with france and russia during world war ii killed the ottomans. this figure to be around 2 million a reality. armenian losses to be around 500 thousand has been proved by research. here, real important issue is the betrayal of the armenians. ottoman also defended himself. armenians living in the u.s. in particular, provides the genocide lies with a big return. u.s. administration in return for big money against the armenians do not want to receive. armenians insisted not open its archives. because for years, returning with genocide lie do not want to lose my return. library opened as soon as the truth will emerge. "


by shindirco march 1, 2010 5:35 am est
bruce fein
posted may 8, 2009 | 12:28 pm (est)


the ongoing high-level efforts between turkey and armenia to normalize relations, including establishing diplomatic relations and opening the land border between the two countries, have received president obama's imprimatur during his recent visit to turkey.

while the negotiated resolution of any conflict is a desirable goal, the turkish government would be wise to weigh the public's expectations of this dialogue with existing realities, which will affect the immediate and long-term outcome of bilateral developments between the two countries and turkey's relations with the united states and azerbaijan.

first, there is a dichotomy of interests among the armenian stakeholders in this dialogue. the interests of the armenian diaspora, even different diaspora organizations, the american political establishment and armenia are divergent. the increasingly boisterous voices in the armenian diaspora which object to the armenian government's engagement with turkey; the dismissal of the bilateral process by u.s. lawmakers who carry the armenian lobby's torch in congress; as well as the full blown campaign by all armenian advocacy and lobby groups in furthering their legislative, educational, political and public affairs agenda in the u.s.and elsewhere, are proof of this divergence.

on the other hand, the turkish community abroad, particularly in the u.s., has by and large voiced support of the turkish government's dual approach that manifests itself in engaging in diplomatic efforts to normalize relations with armenia on the one hand, and in committing to accept the findings of an impartial international commission that will address the contested period of armenian-ottoman history and the "genocide" question, on the other.

however, supporting the process does not mean turning a blind eye to competing turkish interests and other realities. there are wide-spread concerns among turks and others that turkey will lose much and gain little from the entente it labors upon with armenia. without a doubt, the most significant loss turkey may endure from this process, particularly from opening its land border with armenia, could be estranging its natural strategic ally, azerbaijan. azerbaijan has shown significant reaction to turkey's perceived "de-linking" of the continuing armenian occupation from its negotiations with armenia.

those in support of normalizing relations with armenia frequently allude to the potential spillover effect this will have on a peaceful solution to the karabakh conflict and also stem the "genocide" campaigns by the armenian diaspora. however, others argue that the economic effect of a closed land border with turkey is the only incentive for armenia to engage in a meaningful dialogue with azerbaijan on lifting its occupation. some azeri analysts argue that removing this sanction may deprive armenia of any incentive for peace and leave azerbaijan with no option but a new war.

the turkish-armenian dialogue is known to have been advocated by successive u.s. administrations as a way to "pacify" the armenian lobby and to weaken the incessant congressional efforts for u.s. recognition of the "armenian genocide," a development that would most certainly damage u.s.-turkey relations.

however, pursuing this advice without addressing the underpinnings of the global armenian campaign against turkey will most certainly result in great disappointment for turkey.

the "armenian genocide" narrative is an existential narrative for the armenian diaspora. it has become the glue that bonds the community across social, economic and political lines. perpetuating this narrative and activating the community around legislative, educational, philanthropic and political endeavors has become the lifeline for armenian diaspora organizations, including the armenian church. hatred against modern day turks and turkey has become an identity strengthening tool, particularly employed toward young armenians, and examples of this hateful behavior against ordinary turks abound.

it is in this area where turkish analysis about the armenian diaspora's state of mind, its wide-reaching agenda and impact seems to be most deficient. the benefits that turkey expects from rapprochement with armenia can not be achieved as long as the armenian diaspora's realities are ignored. unless armenia and other interested parties can engage the armenian diaspora in this process and help bring about fundamental changes in the community, the "genocide" issue will remain at the center of their agenda. consequently, turkey's outreach to armenia will have no effect on the armenian diaspora and its international agenda against turkey, including its lobbying of the u.s. congress and the administration.

bringing about change in the attitudes of the armenian diaspora needs to focus on:


by thetruth1915 march 1, 2010 5:34 am est
dear american people,
i love americans, i love armenians and all the people. but this genocide claim aims only politic results. please also read the turks' answers to this claim:

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/intro/index.html


by shindirco march 1, 2010 5:27 am est
lie lie lie ... ottoman genocide never did ...
this is a rental tv channel


by isaacnt march 1, 2010 5:20 am est
armenian genocide is a huge lie that was created by europe and u.s.a. ottoman and turkey have never made genocide on any nations.

please look at this.
http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/intro/index.html

and also if you really want to learn how genocide may be organized by armenians look at this please:

http://www.khojaly.net/khojaly.html


by penbrook75 march 1, 2010 5:03 am est
genocide deniers,

the massacre of 350,000 armenians in 1895 was a climax to years of mistreatment of armenians in the ottoman lands, and attest to the attitude of the turks to armenians, greeks and jews. these massacres did not happen only in the time of world war 1. to those individuals who claim that armenians and turks lived peacefully side by side for 600 years assume it was peaceful for both parties. there are countless 19th century armenian literaries who express what armenians were constantly going through.

the turks were losing the war and losing land in wwi. they knew that they were going keep losing. it was their own attitudes towards armenians and historic behavior toward armenians that left them knowing that they had not treated this race fairly and armenians were in unrest, so in a desperate attempt at ethnic cleansing, they killed off and deported as many armenians as they could as fast as they could. despite any efforts to defend their women and children, armenian men were gathered and slaughtered. on april 24th, all the community leaders religious and secular were gathered and killed, the essential "head" was cut off to maim this race. at the same time, of the general population of armenians, most were unable to defend themselves. armenians were under turkish surveillance and were not allowed to carry arms.

turkey, open your ankara archives and show the hidden deeds to the land and property you have violently taken, and show how many homes and land lots suddenly and simultaneously changed ownership from armenian names to turkish names. these deeds will prove what armenians have been subjected to. my great grandfather was a landowner. in order to save his family, he was forced to sign away his rights to his home and land and to sign that he was doing it willingly. we have somehow reclaimed those papers in our family records.

please take note of the many, many eye witness accounts of who was being killed and how. there were europeans and americans living in these lands at these times. there are many public accounts of what was really going on. one account should be enough. europeans, especially germans, had no reason to make up stories and would have had to meet and come up with a collective imagination to conjure the same accounts, which is obviously incredulous.

i also find it very interesting how turks changed their alphabet, mixed with europeans, and constantly want to show a very different face than the original mongolian race that they are. it seems they hate themselves, are constantly pretending to be something else to the rest of the world, but never let anyone say anything about them. the so called diplomat who was questioned on this 60 minutes piece with the blue eyes and blond hair is not a true representation of the turcik race, a very different caricature than the majority of turks. it is yet another tactic in a long line of tactics turks play to be relatable to all sides, playing all sides, and to deny their true history.

what other country in this world has a law that says you can't insult "(turkishness)" have you ever heard of a civilized nation with a free press making up such a ridiculous law? why create such a law unless you know you will come under scrutiny? can you imagine a law penal code 301 in france saying you can not write something negative about how the bastille took place because it insults "frenchness." you turks are a cut beyond reality.

and to those who complain that armenians turn to others for help, if someone destroyed everything you had, and you lost all your belongings, power, and strength as a nation, who would you turn to? your enemy? my god.


by cokuzaktan march 1, 2010 5:44 am est
penbrook75, why this hatred? are you sure all you have read is true? come on, move on, and learn a bit about turks. i am fair skinned and blue eyed turk, and although i don't deny at all our asian roots, i dont see how i relate to my mongolian ancestres. times pass, people change, and get mixed. embrace it, and leave living in history. thats dangerous

by vartoushik march 1, 2010 4:15 am est
thank you cbs for being fare and trying to release the truth which is being carefully covered by people who don't want to be a bad guy and say on turkeys face " yes, you lie, million and a half people couldn't of die by deporting only." how hard is that to understand? their cover up stories are the witness of their guilt. how do they sleep after all? i know why, because the didn't loose their grandparents, they didn't hear their horrible stories about turk soldiers behavior, innocent peoples scream over their babies dead bodies, they didn't see the whole family massacre in front of their eyes. o god forbid.

thank you cbs for being brave and using the scary word genocide, even america scares of this word, where is justice, is our statue a lie???


by adopttruth march 1, 2010 3:43 am est
i feel sorry for the aybike111 and other modern people of turkey that your country forbids you to know the truth! censorship is a bad thing and you all should fight penal code 301 and stand side by side with the eastern orthodox christian church who's patriarch bartholomew is threatened by the turkish government.
the lie that armenians killed turks has been a recent propaganda by the turkish denialist. armenians, historians, the world has told the truth about the armenian genocide for 95 years.
stop making up history and lies it is dishonorable to your ottoman ancestors.
lets talke about the brave ottoman moslems that helped armenians, they fed, hid and helped some armenians to escape because they knew their government was corrupt. they did this despite a warning by the ottoman government they too would be killed along side the armenian they help.

"heavy armenian battalions" please - there were something like 30 million ottomans and about 4 mllion armenians. today there are 70 million turks worldwide and about 10 million armenians worldwide -7 million of which are the diaspora which like the jewish people spreads across the world.

your arguments are weak and lame. there is never an excuse to remove, deport, kill, rape, steal from civilians. especially civilians that were some of the best citizens of the ottoman empire.

"the bloody cowardly wolf retreats, then he crys wolf"


by gregorianarpa march 1, 2010 3:21 am est
thank you.


by nesgoldsmith march 1, 2010 3:19 am est
the women and children and elderly that were sent to their deaths were not "soldiers in a war", i am sure of that.


by gregorianarpa march 1, 2010 3:21 am est
thank you.


by nesgoldsmith march 1, 2010 3:17 am est
so are you trying to rationalize the genocide?

..for all the genocides that followed, did the perpetrators "just wake up and decide to exterminate" their victims? just clarifying since this is one of your arguments.


by medical_help march 1, 2010 3:16 am est
nice coverage, i see a lot of controversy here. i am shocked that lessons of these events are not taught to students in k-12. i think human rights should prevail and the hard truth must be spoken at times. i read that the majority in turkey find the united states to be there #1 enemy in a recent poll. i doubt us recognition of the genocide will change the mood of turkey because it is dependant on the us. how much more can turkish- us relation deteriorate anyway, when turkey is actively growing strong relations with iran without the concerns of the u.s. in mind. turkey is also strongly anti-isreal and seems to be leaning towards the enemies of the us daily with their islamic ruling party. this issue can have many consequences but it all roots from one thing, the murder of civilians in the guise of world war 1.


by aybike111 march 1, 2010 3:15 am est
jhan09187,

i didn't know that only muslims could wear certain colors,that's a shame! but what i do know is they were paying less tax than muslims. the also did not have to enroll to the army, unlike muslims. at that time, joining to the army was a big issue, it could take even more than 7 years, and some soldiers were never able to go back home again.

" they had the right to protect their language and religion like the jews, they were all "peoples of the book", who had the right to be treated kindly. they were trusrworthy in the eyes of ottoman, earning them the title "the loyal community". they entered freely all walks of life as traders, bankers, writers, journalists, physicians, lawyers and men of the arts. economically, they were better off than the rest, including the turks. ..
the fact that the ottoman administration entrusted an armenian citizen (gabriel nouradungian), as the minister of foreign affairs, with the reins of the country's foreign policy during the turbulent years of the balkan wars (1912-13). they served in numerous administrative, secretarial and technical fields in the central government and in eastern anatolia. they were never discriminated against, but enjoyed a gratifying prominence in everyday life, whether in government or in private business." [turkkaya ataov-waht happened to the ottoman armenians?]

you're right about war not being an excuse for killing people, but the aim was not to kill them, they got armed and taken side by russians, so ottoman empire decided to relocate them. it is really sad what has happened to them on the road, but this is not a genocide! the dead peoples number is being exaggerated over time and you should also take into consideration other factors like epidemics and other kinds of losses. also you should accept that turkish people also died. there is even a special note of gratitude of the russian czar nicholas ii, to all armenians thanking them for their services to the russian army's military objectives in the war!

in the archives there is proofs of armed terrorism, violent assaults and murder of turks, and participation on the part of heavy armenian battalions n the first world war. so what about my ancestors? do you feel sorry for them as i do for yours?


by adopttruth march 1, 2010 3:43 am est
i feel sorry for the aybike111 and other modern people of turkey that your country forbids you to know the truth! censorship is a bad thing and you all should fight penal code 301 and stand side by side with the eastern orthodox christian church who's patriarch bartholomew is threatened by the turkish government.
the lie that armenians killed turks has been a recent propaganda by the turkish denialist. armenians, historians, the world has told the truth about the armenian genocide for 95 years.
stop making up history and lies it is dishonorable to your ottoman ancestors.
lets talke about the brave ottoman moslems that helped armenians, they fed, hid and helped some armenians to escape because they knew their government was corrupt. they did this despite a warning by the ottoman government they too would be killed along side the armenian they help.

"heavy armenian battalions" please - there were something like 30 million ottomans and about 4 mllion armenians. today there are 70 million turks worldwide and about 10 million armenians worldwide -7 million of which are the diaspora which like the jewish people spreads across the world.

your arguments are weak and lame. there is never an excuse to remove, deport, kill, rape, steal from civilians. especially civilians that were some of the best citizens of the ottoman empire.

"the bloody cowardly wolf retreats, then he crys wolf"

by nesgoldsmith march 1, 2010 3:05 am est
"there is no such thing as genocide in time of 'war'."?

wow. i think a lot of intelligent people would disagree with that.


by gregorianarpa march 1, 2010 2:49 am est
http://www.asbarezcom/.72862/unfinished-nuremberg-the-trial-of-the-young-turks/


by gregorianarpa march 1, 2010 2:48 am est
http://www.genocide-museum.am/eng/photos_of_armenian_genocide.php


by gregorianarpa march 1, 2010 2:35 am est
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/


by gregorianarpa march 1, 2010 2:33 am est
please do not make such fallacious lies about armenians being the ones burning women and children. in regards to all the stories that you have been told by your forth fathers in regards to the many ways in which the armenian women and children were murdered, the victims and culprits are not interchangeable. therefore, stop your nonsensical blaspheme and crawl back into your propagandized and brainwashed state of mind. it is much safer there.

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/


by aybike111 march 1, 2010 2:29 am est
we do not accept that what has happened was a genocide...

ottoman empire was in war with russia and even some russian officers were appalled when they observed armenian destruction in the cities. a french soldier leader, m. larcher, stated in his memories that the armenian population in the zone of operations were openly sharing a common cause with the russians, that they frequently attacked muslim convoys, that they transformed the armenian quarters in van into an armed fortress, and that these were the reasons for the eventual relocation.


by gregorianarpa march 1, 2010 2:22 am est
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/



by mkozo march 1, 2010 2:17 am est
thank you cbs 60 minutes!!!

this is a topic that sickens me to my bones...being an armenian living in diaspora this is nothing but very personal to me?this is the extermination of a human race, which is my human race...they are my people who were subjected to deportation, expropriation, abduction, torture, massacre and starvation...they are my ancestors...it is my history..my past...my language...

this is not just about the double standards of a superpower vs a minority group..it is not about human rights vs international politics...it is also not about the hopelessness of relating morality and justice to this international politics?it is my brutal reality?of my past?my present?and my future? and i will scream until the day i die and i will die knowing that my children and their children will safeguard the armenian cause until the denials stop.


by dogsbestfriend march 1, 2010 2:15 am est
thank you cbs and bob simon for this segment and especially for calling obama on his promise. historical truth shouldn't be used as a bargaining chip for political purposes.


by jhan09187 march 1, 2010 2:12 am est
btgoalie,

i agree you are definitely right on some points. muslims, christians as well as jews had been living together peacefully in the ottoman empire for years. i want the historical facts just as much as you do. being an armenian in the diaspora, i have grown up with the aggressive mentality for recognition of the genocide. and i agree that armenians think too much about the genocide and not on the current state of affairs in the country.

however, you are wrong on some points. how do you explain the hamidian massacres in 1894-1896, a good few years before the start of world war i? although there was much ethnic diversity in the ottoman empire, there existed a great deal of persecution of all minorities. muslims were in majority. this stuff happens. look at the united states until 40 years ago.
look at the ottoman clothing laws that had existed for many years until a push to more secularized society in the ottoman empire. only muslims could wear a certain color, and this showed the class differences between different ethnic/religious groups in society. once a law was passed taking away the original clothing laws, muslims were angered by the fact that they no longer had this kind of display of status. the norm for many years was muslim superiority to others. it is fact. after years of persecution under ottoman authority minorities like the greeks, jews and armenians began to hate this. what would you expect, they tried to protect themselves in any way possible.
"ataturk", or mustafa kemal wanted to unify the crumbled ottoman empire. he preached a secularized society to conform to the ideal "modern state" but he also wanted a unified turkey. one ethnic heritage, one people. what better way than getting rid of the armenians in an ideal scenario, with the blurred lines of war. you would think the ottomans knew their empire was crumbling, it had been going down for many years. they were preparing for their movement towards a country, turkey. why care about a small threat like the armenians? war is never an excuse, for what happened.


by aybike111 march 1, 2010 3:15 am est
jhan09187,

i didn't know that only muslims could wear certain colors,that's a shame! but what i do know is they were paying less tax than muslims. the also did not have to enroll to the army, unlike muslims. at that time, joining to the army was a big issue, it could take even more than 7 years, and some soldiers were never able to go back home again.

" they had the right to protect their language and religion like the jews, they were all "peoples of the book", who had the right to be treated kindly. they were trusrworthy in the eyes of ottoman, earning them the title "the loyal community". they entered freely all walks of life as traders, bankers, writers, journalists, physicians, lawyers and men of the arts. economically, they were better off than the rest, including the turks. ..
the fact that the ottoman administration entrusted an armenian citizen (gabriel nouradungian), as the minister of foreign affairs, with the reins of the country's foreign policy during the turbulent years of the balkan wars (1912-13). they served in numerous administrative, secretarial and technical fields in the central government and in eastern anatolia. they were never discriminated against, but enjoyed a gratifying prominence in everyday life, whether in government or in private business." [turkkaya ataov-waht happened to the ottoman armenians?]

you're right about war not being an excuse for killing people, but the aim was not to kill them, they got armed and taken side by russians, so ottoman empire decided to relocate them. it is really sad what has happened to them on the road, but this is not a genocide! the dead peoples number is being exaggerated over time and you should also take into consideration other factors like epidemics and other kinds of losses. also you should accept that turkish people also died. there is even a special note of gratitude of the russian czar nicholas ii, to all armenians thanking them for their services to the russian army's military objectives in the war!

in the archives there is proofs of armed terrorism, violent assaults and murder of turks, and participation on the part of heavy armenian battalions n the first world war. so what about my ancestors? do you feel sorry for them as i do for yours?

by anagheel march 1, 2010 2:00 am est
i dont know if every thing in this video is true or all the other reports i've seen regarding the armenian genocide but,what happened is that armenian people where killed in scores of numbers by the turks.failure to accept the human atrocities that occured many years ago just tells you how evil human beings can be.the current turkey goverment can act as a civilized nation and issue a apology to the people of armenia and all whom lost family members in that genocide.


by aybike111 march 1, 2010 2:29 am est
we do not accept that what has happened was a genocide...

ottoman empire was in war with russia and even some russian officers were appalled when they observed armenian destruction in the cities. a french soldier leader, m. larcher, stated in his memories that the armenian population in the zone of operations were openly sharing a common cause with the russians, that they frequently attacked muslim convoys, that they transformed the armenian quarters in van into an armed fortress, and that these were the reasons for the eventual relocation.

by aybike111 march 1, 2010 1:59 am est
the turkish governor of van, the easthernmost ottoman province notes during the world war i: " it is the armenians much more than the russians who are fighting us!"

please try to see the reasons behind the relocation decision. some armenians living in certain places (adapazari, aydin, birecik, bolu, canik, canakkale, edirne, kastamonu, karahisar, konya, tekirdag, trabzon, parts of erzurum, etc...) were exempt from the transfer. if there would be a genocide or "a campaign of race extermination" how would you explain that?


by mavsar march 1, 2010 1:49 am est
please see http://www.tallarmeniantale.com

for a long time, you believed that indians were untamed, brutal and barbarous. but, the fact is just the opposite. white guy was the side broke every deal. so-called armenian genocide is the same.

why would a nation exile their neighbours after living side by side for 600 years?

i've been told (by an eyewitness) how armenians burned women and children gathered in an house, whose men were away from home in the army. and, when those men got back home, they've threw those armenians from the highest point they could find. i don't blame them. i'd choose some more painful way to kill them.


by gregorianarpa march 1, 2010 2:33 am est
please do not make such fallacious lies about armenians being the ones burning women and children. in regards to all the stories that you have been told by your forth fathers in regards to the many ways in which the armenian women and children were murdered, the victims and culprits are not interchangeable. therefore, stop your nonsensical blaspheme and crawl back into your propagandized and brainwashed state of mind. it is much safer there.

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/

by gregorianarpa march 1, 2010 2:35 am est
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/

by aybike111 march 1, 2010 1:45 am est
it seems like you already decided what to believe, but just in case that you would like to read and learn...

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/


by thanksyoucbs march 1, 2010 1:38 am est
thank you cbs for telling the truth about the armenian people, it?s about time turkey stands up for what they did like the germans and take full responsibility for their actions. we have come so far in the past 100 years and to still see a nation putting this topic in the dark, the way turkey is; is a disgrace to humanity. armenians along with all the nations in the work (except turkey) know the truth and speak the truth about the armenian genocide, we need more pressure in our governments to push turkey to finally admit their wrong doing and make it right. i am of italian background and i too can see the deception that turkey has made and to which has gotten away with a genocide of biblical proportion. we as people need to pull together to set the groundwork?s for a better future, for a more peaceful future... but that can never happen for the armenian people until the past is correced.

well done cbs, you have earned my respect as an italian american, a wonderful show you have.... 60 min. congrats.


by aybike111 march 1, 2010 1:45 am est
it seems like you already decided what to believe, but just in case that you would like to read and learn...

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/

by vartoushik march 1, 2010 4:15 am est
thank you cbs for being fare and trying to release the truth which is being carefully covered by people who don't want to be a bad guy and say on turkeys face " yes, you lie, million and a half people couldn't of die by deporting only." how hard is that to understand? their cover up stories are the witness of their guilt. how do they sleep after all? i know why, because the didn't loose their grandparents, they didn't hear their horrible stories about turk soldiers behavior, innocent peoples scream over their babies dead bodies, they didn't see the whole family massacre in front of their eyes. o god forbid.

thank you cbs for being brave and using the scary word genocide, even america scares of this word, where is justice, is our statue a lie???

by btgoalie91 march 1, 2010 1:32 am est
"the turks vs the world="+=" the lies vs the truth="GENOCIDE""

let me use you're childish lingo now, arattaworld. lol.
does not make the least bit of sense. try again.


by andrewkoseoglu march 1, 2010 1:30 am est
turks have fought against the world before and won. the turks and the truth will win again.



by andrewkoseoglu march 1, 2010 1:30 am est
turks have fought against the world before and won. the turks and the truth will win again.


by aybike111 march 1, 2010 1:28 am est
it is a statistical data, you can search for m?girdic sinabyan ...


by btgoalie91 march 1, 2010 1:25 am est
if i were to argue with you personally, i'd pick a better forum to call you out rather than cbs's website. believe me. i did not run out of arguments at all, what are you getting at? these are facts, buddy. just because 60 minutes does a report on these allegations of "genocide", does not mean they are right?? catch my drift? now like i said again, i'm relaying on the facts. if you knew how to read, you would have spent the time reading what i graciously wrote. thanks for trying to become convincing and right, just as bob simpson failed to do.


by arattaworld march 1, 2010 1:25 am est
in conclusion:

the turks vs the world="+=" the lies vs the truth="GENOCIDE"


by andrewkoseoglu march 1, 2010 1:30 am est
turks have fought against the world before and won. the turks and the truth will win again.

by btgoalie91 march 1, 2010 1:32 am est
"the turks vs the world="+=" the lies vs the truth="GENOCIDE""

let me use you're childish lingo now, arattaworld. lol.
does not make the least bit of sense. try again.

by arattaworld march 1, 2010 1:22 am est
"in 1915 the turkish government began and ruthlessly carried out the infamous general massacre and deportation of armenians in asia minor...there is no reasonable doubt that the crime was planned and executed for political reasons. the opportunity presented itself for clearing turkish soil of a christian race."

--winston churchill "the world crisis: the aftermath" pg. 405




"deportation of and excesses against peaceful armenians is increasing and from the harrowing reports of eyewitnesses it appears that a campaign of race extermination is in progress under a pretext of a reprisal against rebillion."


---henry morgenthau, u.s. ambassador to turkey, telegram to the u.s. secretary of state, july 16, 1915


by aybike111 march 1, 2010 1:59 am est
the turkish governor of van, the easthernmost ottoman province notes during the world war i: " it is the armenians much more than the russians who are fighting us!"

please try to see the reasons behind the relocation decision. some armenians living in certain places (adapazari, aydin, birecik, bolu, canik, canakkale, edirne, kastamonu, karahisar, konya, tekirdag, trabzon, parts of erzurum, etc...) were exempt from the transfer. if there would be a genocide or "a campaign of race extermination" how would you explain that?

by arattaworld march 1, 2010 1:21 am est
"i am condident that the whole history of the human race contains no such horrible episode as this. the great massacres and persecutions of the past seem almost insignificant when compared to the sufferings of the armenian race in 1915"

---henry morgenthau, u.s. ambassador to turkey



"...the armenian massacre was the greates crime of the war, and the failure to act against turkey is to condone it...the failure to deal radically with the turkish horror means that all talk of guaranteeing the future peace of the world is mischievous nonsense."

---president theodor roosevelt. may 11, 1918, letter to cleveland hoadly dodge



"the association of mount ararat and noah, the staunch christians who were massacred periodically by the mohammedan turks, and the sunday school collections over fifty years for alleviating thier miseries, ...all cumulate to impress the name armenia on the front of the american mind"

---president herbert hoover. the memories of herbert hoover, 1952


"it is generally not known in the world that, in the years preceding 1916, there was a concerted effort made to eliminate all the armenian people, probably one of the greatest tragedies that ever befell any group. and there weren't any nuremberg trials"

---president jimmy carter. may 16, 1978, white house ceremony


"like the genocide of the armenians before it, and the genocide of the cambodians which followed it, ...the lessons of the holocaust must never be forgotten"

---president ronald reagan. april 22, 1981 proclamation


by arattaworld march 1, 2010 1:19 am est
btgoalie:"this isn't personal, this is fact. first off, please be educated and talk before you use childish language and lingo's such as "lol". that shows a lot about your intelligence. second off, ill repeat this again..."

thank you for proving my point. 1. learn to argue the issue not the person. 2. by repeating youself you again and again prove that you truly run out of arguments.


by aybike111 march 1, 2010 1:18 am est
"-it was a mistake to establish the volunteer units.
-they were unconditionally allied with russia.
-the decision of the deportation of armenians was a rightful measure taken by turks to serve their purpose.
-ottoman empire had acted with an instinct to self defense.
-the british occupation once more aroused the hopes of the dashnags.
-they massacred the muslim population.
-the armenian terrorist activities were directed at winning over the western public opinion.
-the dashnagzoutiun party had nothing else to do but commit suicide"

katchaznouni, the first prime minister of armenia and the founder of the dashnagzoutiun party.

also you can find a special note of gratitude of the russian czar nicholas ii, to all armenians thanking them for their services to the russian army's military objectives in the war!

in the archives there is proofs of armed terrorism, violent assaults and murder of turks, and participation on the part of heavy armenian battalions n the first world war.


by andrewkoseoglu march 1, 2010 1:18 am est
i came to us 20 years ago. lived in la for a while met a lot of armenians sow them as brothers and sisters. we enjoyed the same music, the same food. once i worked for an armenian for 1 day, when he find out i was turk he refused to allow me lunch at the work site. i just simply walked away. because i am turk, i fight my own fight when it's worth fighting. i probably could have sued him and easely won. why can't you guys fight your own fight? why do you have to cry to uncle sam so he can fight for you?


by jolol march 1, 2010 1:16 am est
cbs is not fooling anyone wuth its deceptive segment on the armenian genocide. this segment was full of strategic misrepresentaions; subversive language; and deliberately timed to defeat the house resolution.

it is not a battle over history, it is a battle over the crime of genocide and accountability. armenians did originate from istanbul; the genocide occured in western armenia (present day eastern turkey). the armenians had a hoeland and a republic recognized by the us, japan, france and the ul on 1918 that was annexed by turkey after the genocide.

cbs, you are not going to cheat the armenians from holding turkey accountable for the crime of genocide - reparation, restitution and land.


by btgoalie91 march 1, 2010 1:15 am est
arattaworld,

nothing pleases you more then to see turks run out at arguments, and to start getting personal?

this isn't personal, this is fact. first off, please be educated and talk before you use childish language and lingo's such as "lol". that shows a lot about your intelligence. second off, ill repeat this again...

there isn't any context at all of what happened before and during world war i. it seems as if ottoman leaders just woke up one morning and decided to "exterminate" armenians just because they felt like it. there were hundreds of different ethnic and religious groups living under ottoman rule for centuries, including jews, christians, etc. many nations including armenians prospered under the protective rule of the ottoman empire while protecting their culture. however, when the empire started to crumble, armenians decided to side with russians who were invading ottoman empire at the time alongside with british, italians, french, etc. armenian militia attacked turkish villages, conspired against the ottoman army fighting the russians in the east. just like any country under attack, ottomans sought to protect its borders and forced armenians to move. people died, it was winter of 1915 during world war i. while any death is regrettable, denying 600 years of protection and prosperity under ottoman rule and to claim an empire consisting of hundreds of nations is responsible for coordinated genocide is just absurd. additionally, whatever happened, happened in 1915 where the republic of turkey was founded in 1923.

what?is armenia to gain from all this animosity against turkey? armenian national identity is just defined by it. the country is land locked and is at war with azerbaijan. the founding constitution of armenia calls for annexing large portions of turkey. the coat of arms of armenia depict mount ararat, a landmark within borders of turkey. there are more armenians living abroad than that live within armenia. this so-called armenian diaspora has significant political influence over mainland armenia. while armenians living in mainland try to survive on $1000 annual income, the armenian diaspora keep promoting the conflict while sipping red wine in their cozy los angeles beachside houses with no regards to the struggle of their fellow countrymen. as long as ordinary armenians don't break the influence of the diaspora and start thinking for themselves, there won't be any progress. the conflicts of the past just hold nations back. armenians should recognize that they were just pawns of the russians back during the world war i and that they are still taken advantage of. it is to the benefit of both turkey and armenia to work together and prosper together instead of using resources for conflict. ? ?

few other facts to mention: turkey is the 17th largest economy in the world, a member of g-20 club of most developed nations, has the second largest army in nato that protected all western europe against a soviet invasion while armenia was a part of soviet union where most of them now speak russian. armenia's all military supplies come from russia. so much for preserving their identity under just a century of russian rule. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??

bob simon wouldn't have asked why eight secretaries of state opposed a legislation if he chose not to ignore the above facts. i think his ignorance of history is not related to his lack of knowledge but probably more related to his bank account.?

finally, i fail to comprehend how airing a piece like this enhances daily lives of ordinary americans. it seems congress or senate don't have anything better to do than to sort out who killed who a century ago on the other side of the planet while they should actually be focusing their time on healthcare, unemployment or education.?

to conclude, "journalistic" pieces like this appear right about this time every year however i expected more from 60 minutes than to be a puppet of armenian diaspora. pieces like this just increase hatred while doing little to improve peace in the world. the piece constantly emphasized armenians being a christian ethnic minority while referring ottomans as muslims as if to say they were "exterminated" just because they were christians. any responsible journalist should promote understanding rather than provoke emotions. this piece is really a shame for what 60 minutes stands for. modern turkey will continue on her path to prosperity and cooperate with any country who seeks to better the lives of its citizens through peace. armenia is more than welcome to be a partner in her journey. there is not a better way to finish than quoting ataturk, founder of the republic of turkey, "peace in the country, peace in the world."


by arattaworld march 1, 2010 1:11 am est
international association of genocide scholars




http://www.genocidescholars.org/resolutionsstatements.html



resolutions & statements




-7 march 2009: letter to president obama from the iags for us recognition of the armenian genocide


-23 april 2008: "the cost of denial," by dr. gregory stanton, iags president at the congressional commemoration of the armenian genocide


-october 2007: iags letter to the us house of representatives foreign affairs committee calling for recognition of the armenian genocide


-13 july 2007: iags resolution on genocides against assyrians, greeks, armenians, and other christians by the ottoman empire


-13 june 2005: open letter to the turkish prime minister concerning the armenian genocide


-13 june 1997: iags resolution on the armenian genocide


by arattaworld march 1, 2010 1:11 am est
i also say genocide. and you take it as an insult to turkishness)))))) lol


by alperen-nevruz march 1, 2010 1:10 am est
i can put my signature to under nebi sensoy s words
because everyone knows that general scarcity of food was happening by the time and armenian s was deported
that bone s showing could be turs bones too
in turkey everywhere u can find that kind graves
after i watched that program i believed one of that channel boss or partner armenian othervise no posibility to that kind sided program can showed
i am sure some one must apologize the turks


by prog2112 march 1, 2010 1:10 am est
the genocide according to turkey: "in 1915, armenia, now a land of 11k sq. miles and 3.2 million citizens, began a mass killing campaign against turkey, now 292k sq. miles and 72.5 million, and deported turkish citizens,leaving them to bask on the breathtaking beaches of the turkish riviera."

seems like most turkish descendants of wwi have evolved from genocidal muderers to a dellusional society that has lost contact with reality.


by hayo10 march 1, 2010 1:09 am est
uuuuu, you are not writing the words "turk" and "muslim" in capitals, what a way to go!!


by arattaworld march 1, 2010 1:11 am est
i also say genocide. and you take it as an insult to turkishness)))))) lol

by btgoalie91 march 1, 2010 1:09 am est
there is no such thing as genocide in the time of "war". killing is a part of war, and the armenians have been constantly trying to call it a genocide. what uneducated human beings. first off, wars are fought about everything, including history. jesus christ, the idle and savior of the christian people, was on huge example. why do christians today ... see morenot like jews that much? uhh, i guess it has to do with history??? i don't know, i guess what bob simpson says is utterly true. what a joke. second off, go back to the video in the first 40 seconds of the intro, even bob simpson says it, "the recorded killings during the first world war". am i making myself clear? third, they video clearly sides with one opposition. why not show what the armenians did first to the ottoman women and children...


by arattaworld march 1, 2010 1:07 am est
looool nothing gives me more please then to see the turks run out of arguments, and start to get personal)))))))))))))


by amenedjian march 1, 2010 1:06 am est
one of the best coverages of the armenian genocide. well told. a courageous stand by a news service to air it. should serve as an example to all media outlets all across the world to tell the story without the political spin. it's a shame that the u.s. as big and powerful as it is avoids the subject like a snake in their purse. so does turkey.

anna menedjian


by arattaworld march 1, 2010 1:06 am est
the armenians of turkey were forced by the muslim turks to use turkish names. you even gave to mount ararat a different name...not to mention you change all the names in those lands that remind you of the armenians. you must be paranoid))))


by hayo10 march 1, 2010 1:09 am est
uuuuu, you are not writing the words "turk" and "muslim" in capitals, what a way to go!!


by andrewkoseoglu march 1, 2010 1:05 am est
you are a liar and a coward.


by arattaworld march 1, 2010 1:03 am est
aybike:"according to the ottoman public statistis administration , the ermenian people in ottoman empire at 1897 was 1.042.374... "

the armenian-highland is the birth place of the armenian people. armenains have lived in those lands for thousands of year. how can you claim there just over a million armenians living in those lands when in fact you were a newcomer? use a logic before you spread any kind of a lie.


by aybike111 march 1, 2010 1:28 am est
it is a statistical data, you can search for m?girdic sinabyan ...

by hayo10 march 1, 2010 1:03 am est
yeah, i am!!! but it looks like you armenians are not ashamed to use turkish names:)))


by armenian-man_in_ny march 1, 2010 1:01 am est
thank you cbs!!! it's obvious that the movie-makers recognize it as a genocide. turkish ambassador, sensoy, if those armenians were not killed where are they? why they did not return to there homes and who owns there belongings?


by arattaworld march 1, 2010 1:00 am est
hayo, you must admit that you are ashamed of using a turkish name)))

"what about the knives and rifles that russians gave to you."
there were no russians in 1009 adana massacre. there were no russians in 1884 massacres during which over 350,000 armenians were massacred just for being christian.


by hayo10 march 1, 2010 1:03 am est
yeah, i am!!! but it looks like you armenians are not ashamed to use turkish names:)))

by genocidescholars1 march 1, 2010 12:59 am est
mr. koseoglu. you state that the largest armenian population (outside of armenia) still lives in turkey. how many armenians do you think live in turkey today? 60,000?, 100,000? out of a turkish population of 70 million. there are millions of armenians living in russia and the us much larger than the remnant in turkey.


by andrewkoseoglu march 1, 2010 1:18 am est
i came to us 20 years ago. lived in la for a while met a lot of armenians sow them as brothers and sisters. we enjoyed the same music, the same food. once i worked for an armenian for 1 day, when he find out i was turk he refused to allow me lunch at the work site. i just simply walked away. because i am turk, i fight my own fight when it's worth fighting. i probably could have sued him and easely won. why can't you guys fight your own fight? why do you have to cry to uncle sam so he can fight for you?

by dena191 march 1, 2010 12:56 am est
thank you, cbs. thank you, 60 minutes and bob simon.

my grandparents both lost their families in the genocide. i listened to the horrific details, recounted many many times over the years. my grandmother was hiding when she witnessed the murder of her mother, sisters and baby brother. she made her way to the birds nest orphanage run by a heroic danish nun, maria jacobsen who documented what she witnessed.
http://www.fredsakademiet.dk/library/karekin/ukmaria.htm

thank you for having the courage to air this piece and allowing the truth to be known.


by arattaworld march 1, 2010 12:56 am est
"i am condident that the whole history of the human race contains no such horrible episode as this. the great massacres and persecutions of the past seem almost insignificant when compared to the sufferings of the armenian race in 1915"

---henry morgenthau, u.s. ambassador to turkey



"...the armenian massacre was the greates crime of the war, and the failure to act against turkey is to condone it...the failure to deal radically with the turkish horror means that all talk of guaranteeing the future peace of the world is mischievous nonsense."

---president theodor roosevelt. may 11, 1918, letter to cleveland hoadly dodge



"the association of mount ararat and noah, the staunch christians who were massacred periodically by the mohammedan turks, and the sunday school collections over fifty years for alleviating thier miseries, ...all cumulate to impress the name armenia on the front of the american mind"

---president herbert hoover. the memories of herbert hoover, 1952


"it is generally not known in the world that, in the years preceding 1916, there was a concerted effort made to eliminate all the armenian people, probably one of the greatest tragedies that ever befell any group. and there weren't any nuremberg trials"

---president jimmy carter. may 16, 1978, white house ceremony


"like the genocide of the armenians before it, and the genocide of the cambodians which followed it, ...the lessons of the holocaust must never be forgotten"

---president ronald reagan. april 22, 1981 proclamation


by aybike111 march 1, 2010 1:18 am est
"-it was a mistake to establish the volunteer units.
-they were unconditionally allied with russia.
-the decision of the deportation of armenians was a rightful measure taken by turks to serve their purpose.
-ottoman empire had acted with an instinct to self defense.
-the british occupation once more aroused the hopes of the dashnags.
-they massacred the muslim population.
-the armenian terrorist activities were directed at winning over the western public opinion.
-the dashnagzoutiun party had nothing else to do but commit suicide"

katchaznouni, the first prime minister of armenia and the founder of the dashnagzoutiun party.

also you can find a special note of gratitude of the russian czar nicholas ii, to all armenians thanking them for their services to the russian army's military objectives in the war!

in the archives there is proofs of armed terrorism, violent assaults and murder of turks, and participation on the part of heavy armenian battalions n the first world war.

by aybike111 march 1, 2010 12:56 am est
according to the ottoman public statistis administration , the ermenian people in ottoman empire at 1897 was 1.042.374... so the information that 1.5 million armenians being killed by turks is a lie. i can hear you saying "how will we know that data is correct? ". between 1897-1903 the president of this institution is also an ottoman armenian, named m???rd?? s?nabyan. [ stanford j. shaw, ?the ottoman census system and polulation 1831-1914? international journal of middle east studies 9, (1978), s.337.]. if you would search, you could see that the armenians had always been in the important positions in the ottoman empire which simply shows the peaceful and brotherly coexistence of the armenian and the turkish people for the most of their history.

as you might know, ottoman empire was in war with russia at that time, and actually you can find a special note of gratitude of the russian czar nicholas ii, adressed (21 april 1915) to all armenians thanking them for their services to the russian army's military objectives in the war.

so there was a war, and ottoman empire decided to transfer these people, it is so sad that people died on the road, but what would you do? it is also sad that they killed many turks before they have been forced to move...if there would be a genocide, how would you explain that the ottomans not relocating the armenians in the western cities?


by nesgoldsmith march 1, 2010 3:19 am est
the women and children and elderly that were sent to their deaths were not "soldiers in a war", i am sure of that.

by hayo10 march 1, 2010 12:52 am est
hayo is not a name unique to you guys, it can be german as well, as zilji, arabaci, terzi, ekmekji is not unique to us. i have no problem with it though, i just wanted to make a point.
and don't try to fool me like others with your "they collected the knives from the ordinarly people, then they sarted to massacre the unarmed" stuff. what about the knives and rifles that russians gave to you. you always start turkish-armenian history from 1915, what happened before? since you read my message, can you answer my questions?
and am i the big ego here? some stupid person has the ego to tell that my country doesn't belong to me, and i don't have the right to laugh at that??



by gurun123 march 1, 2010 12:50 am est
it is very disapponting to see a program like 60 minutes that promotes quality journalism to air a piece like this. standing over a mound with bones in syria with an armenian "writer" and an armenian "dentist" and without any evidence of any sort to liken republic of turkey to nazi germany is beyond any form of human decency let alone journalistic ethic.?

there is a number of facts that should have been included that were "somehow" missing. first of all, while dink was shown as a martyr who was murdered, there was no mention of asala, a terrorist organization recognized by department of state, who was funded by armenian diaspora responsible for killings of innocent people including many turkish diplomats and americans as well. the murder of dink is a crime and is being prosecuted in a court of law. just to be clear, i condemn all acts of violence. however, people remembering dink's murder at the hands of extremist nationalists should also remember many people assasinated at the hands of extremist armenians all around the world.

secondly, bob simon mentions that recent agreements between armenia and turkey are unraveling but fails to explain why. the agreements were negotiated by and were signed in the presence of us secretary of state, foreign ministers of france, russia and eu high representative. all terms of the agreement are accepted by the two sides in writing however armenian diaspora labeled the armenian president a traitor trying to improve relations with turkey. he now has to be protected in his own country against these extremists who are threatening to kill him. the armenian senate even recently passed a law giving the president the sole power to back out from an international agreement. no wonder why talks are failing.


by gurun123 march 1, 2010 12:49 am est
third of all, there isn't any context at all of what happened before and during world war i. it seems as if ottoman leaders just woke up one morning and decided to "exterminate" armenians just because they felt like it. there were hundreds of different ethnic and religious groups living under ottoman rule for centuries, including jews, christians, etc. many nations including armenians prospered under the protective rule of the ottoman empire while protecting their culture. however, when the empire started to crumble, armenians decided to side with russians who were invading ottoman empire at the time alongside with british, italians, french, etc. armenian militia attacked turkish villages, conspired against the ottoman army fighting the russians in the east. just like any country under attack, ottomans sought to protect its borders and forced armenians to move. people died, it was winter of 1915 during world war i. while any death is regrettable, denying 600 years of protection and prosperity under ottoman rule and to claim an empire consisting of hundreds of nations is responsible for coordinated genocide is just absurd. additionally, whatever happened, happened in 1915 where the republic of turkey was founded in 1923.

what?is armenia to gain from all this animosity against turkey? armenian national identity is just defined by it. the country is land locked and is at war with azerbaijan. the founding constitution of armenia calls for annexing large portions of turkey. the coat of arms of armenia depict mount ararat, a landmark within borders of turkey. there are more armenians living abroad than that live within armenia. this so-called armenian diaspora has significant political influence over mainland armenia. while armenians living in mainland try to survive on $1000 annual income, the armenian diaspora keep promoting the conflict while sipping red wine in their cozy los angeles beachside houses with no regards to the struggle of their fellow countrymen. as long as ordinary armenians don't break the influence of the diaspora and start thinking for themselves, there won't be any progress. the conflicts of the past just hold nations back. armenians should recognize that they were just pawns of the russians back during the world war i and that they are still taken advantage of. it is to the benefit of both turkey and armenia to work together and prosper together instead of using resources for conflict. ? ?

few other facts to mention: turkey is the 17th largest economy in the world, a member of g-20 club of most developed nations, has the second largest army in nato that protected all western europe against a soviet invasion while armenia was a part of soviet union where most of them now speak russian. armenia's all military supplies come from russia. so much for preserving their identity under just a century of russian rule. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??

bob simon wouldn't have asked why eight secretaries of state opposed a legislation if he chose not to ignore the above facts. i think his ignorance of history is not related to his lack of knowledge but probably more related to his bank account.?

finally, i fail to comprehend how airing a piece like this enhances daily lives of ordinary americans. it seems congress or senate don't have anything better to do than to sort out who killed who a century ago on the other side of the planet while they should actually be focusing their time on healthcare, unemployment or education.?

to conclude, "journalistic" pieces like this appear right about this time every year however i expected more from 60 minutes than to be a puppet of armenian diaspora. pieces like this just increase hatred while doing little to improve peace in the world. the piece constantly emphasized armenians being a christian ethnic minority while referring ottomans as muslims as if to say they were "exterminated" just because they were christians. any responsible journalist should promote understanding rather than provoke emotions. this piece is really a shame for what 60 minutes stands for. modern turkey will continue on her path to prosperity and cooperate with any country who seeks to better the lives of its citizens through peace. armenia is more than welcome to be a partner in her journey. there is not a better way to finish than quoting ataturk, founder of the republic of turkey, "peace in the country, peace in the world."


by gurun123 march 1, 2010 12:50 am est
it is very disapponting to see a program like 60 minutes that promotes quality journalism to air a piece like this. standing over a mound with bones in syria with an armenian "writer" and an armenian "dentist" and without any evidence of any sort to liken republic of turkey to nazi germany is beyond any form of human decency let alone journalistic ethic.?

there is a number of facts that should have been included that were "somehow" missing. first of all, while dink was shown as a martyr who was murdered, there was no mention of asala, a terrorist organization recognized by department of state, who was funded by armenian diaspora responsible for killings of innocent people including many turkish diplomats and americans as well. the murder of dink is a crime and is being prosecuted in a court of law. just to be clear, i condemn all acts of violence. however, people remembering dink's murder at the hands of extremist nationalists should also remember many people assasinated at the hands of extremist armenians all around the world.

secondly, bob simon mentions that recent agreements between armenia and turkey are unraveling but fails to explain why. the agreements were negotiated by and were signed in the presence of us secretary of state, foreign ministers of france, russia and eu high representative. all terms of the agreement are accepted by the two sides in writing however armenian diaspora labeled the armenian president a traitor trying to improve relations with turkey. he now has to be protected in his own country against these extremists who are threatening to kill him. the armenian senate even recently passed a law giving the president the sole power to back out from an international agreement. no wonder why talks are failing.

by nesgoldsmith march 1, 2010 3:17 am est
so are you trying to rationalize the genocide?

..for all the genocides that followed, did the perpetrators "just wake up and decide to exterminate" their victims? just clarifying since this is one of your arguments.

by sofianides march 1, 2010 12:48 am est
i am so proud of 60 minutes for finally reporting honestly about the armenian genocide!!! even more proud of 60 minutes for putting the thumb screws to the turkish ambassador to the us and for shaming the current & previous presidential administrations along with all of the secs. of state for sweeping all of the numer...ous congressional armenian genocide bills under the rug and killing the bills!

cnn's christiane amanpour should watch this news story & take a lesson on what good reporting is all about! shame on her too for leaving out the armenian genocide when she did her journalistic piece on all of the genocides of the 20th century and how the powers that be constantly deny they happen through propaganda & media!

bravo cbs news & 60 minutes!


by btgoalie91 march 1, 2010 12:47 am est
there is no such thing as genocide in the time of "war". killing is a part of war, and the armenians have been constantly trying to call it a genocide. what uneducated human beings. first off, wars are fought about everything, including history. jesus christ, the idle and savior of the christian people, was on huge example. why do christians today ... see morenot like jews that much? uhh, i guess it has to do with history??? i don't know, i guess what bob simpson says is utterly true. what a joke. second off, go back to the video in the first 40 seconds of the intro, even bob simpson says it, "the recorded killings during the first world war". am i making myself clear? third, they video cleary sides with one opposition. why not show what the armenians did first to the ottoman women and children...


by btgoalie91 march 1, 2010 12:46 am est
there is no such thing as genocide in the time of "war". killing is a part of war, and the armenians have been constantly trying to call it a genocide. what uneducated human beings. first off, wars are fought about everything, including history. jesus christ, the idle and savior of the christian people, was on huge example. why do christians today ... see morenot like jews that much? uhh, i guess it has to do with history??? i don't know, i guess what bob simpson says is utterly true. what a joke. second off, go back to the video in the first 40 seconds of the intro, even bob simpson says it, "the recorded killings during the first world war". am i making myself clear? third, they video cleary sides with one opposition. why not show what the armenians did first to the ottoman women and children...


by nesgoldsmith march 1, 2010 3:05 am est
"there is no such thing as genocide in time of 'war'."?

wow. i think a lot of intelligent people would disagree with that.

by andrewkoseoglu march 1, 2010 12:43 am est
just the fact that you are alive and wrote this proves, you are a liar.


by arattaworld march 1, 2010 12:43 am est
tallat: "no armenian...can be our frined after what we have done to them"


---henry morgenthaur "murder of a race" pg. 68


by arattaworld march 1, 2010 12:34 am est
hayo:"come on, be reasonable,land is not given to you, it can only be taken by you."

the christians in turkey were forced to pay heavy taxes, and were not aloud to carry any kind of guns. just before the 1915 massacres, the turkish government arrested the armenian intelligencia, collected the knives from the ordinarly people, then they sarted to massacre the unarmed, unprotected people. a fool with a big ego like you, can only fight against unarmed people.


why do you use an armenian name while posting a message in here?


by hayo10 march 1, 2010 12:52 am est
hayo is not a name unique to you guys, it can be german as well, as zilji, arabaci, terzi, ekmekji is not unique to us. i have no problem with it though, i just wanted to make a point.
and don't try to fool me like others with your "they collected the knives from the ordinarly people, then they sarted to massacre the unarmed" stuff. what about the knives and rifles that russians gave to you. you always start turkish-armenian history from 1915, what happened before? since you read my message, can you answer my questions?
and am i the big ego here? some stupid person has the ego to tell that my country doesn't belong to me, and i don't have the right to laugh at that??

by evelinagalli march 1, 2010 12:33 am est
thank you cbs!!! for bringing up this carefully camouflaged page in the history! that is courageous! 1.5 million have been killed and 95 years later there is a silence!


by andrewkoseoglu march 1, 2010 12:32 am est
so is that it? you want money ?



by arattaworld march 1, 2010 12:28 am est
international association of genocide scholars




http://www.genocidescholars.org/resolutionsstatements.html



resolutions & statements




-7 march 2009: letter to president obama from the iags for us recognition of the armenian genocide


-23 april 2008: "the cost of denial," by dr. gregory stanton, iags president at the congressional commemoration of the armenian genocide


-october 2007: iags letter to the us house of representatives foreign affairs committee calling for recognition of the armenian genocide


-13 july 2007: iags resolution on genocides against assyrians, greeks, armenians, and other christians by the ottoman empire


-13 june 2005: open letter to the turkish prime minister concerning the armenian genocide


-13 june 1997: iags resolution on the armenian genocide


by hayo10 march 1, 2010 12:26 am est
1. omg,we came to anatolia in 1071 and you still think that we are not natives to this land!who is then? do you think english are not native to england because they conquered it in 1066?should angles kick the saxons out? are you sane?
2. if you really want our lands, then don't ask for to your uncles in washington, come to kars, artvin, ask us for some land! do you think that it's that easy to take land, you'll ask your big brother and he'll give our land to you?come on, be reasonable,land is not given to you, it can only be taken by you.
3. wuuuu,many terrorist are turks!! " hey american brother, you should hate the turks as much as we do!"
4. what happened to those anzacs you mentioned? did they just leave because they prefered the beaches of sydney to dardanelles?
5. well i'm sick of this stuff. just have some real questions? why on earth we wanted to kill all armenians that we lived together for centuries? why on earth you guys had(still have) turkish surnames which just end with "ian-son" if we hated you that much throughout history? how on earth armenians worked for ottoman ministries, became sultan's doctors, bankers, if we were always hostile to our minorities? why armenians were called the millet-i sadika-the loyal nation? what, who triggered this deportation? have you ever taught about it?


by andrewkoseoglu march 1, 2010 12:25 am est
armenian people for once should stop trying to have other people do their fights. largest armenian population (outhside of armenia) still lives in turkey. maybe you should ask them what it's called.


by genocidescholars1 march 1, 2010 12:59 am est
mr. koseoglu. you state that the largest armenian population (outside of armenia) still lives in turkey. how many armenians do you think live in turkey today? 60,000?, 100,000? out of a turkish population of 70 million. there are millions of armenians living in russia and the us much larger than the remnant in turkey.

by genocide40 march 1, 2010 12:24 am est
to andrewkoseoglu,
the intention is clear by these quotes!!!http://www.genocide1915.info/quotes/

armenians coudn't resist like they did in musa daugh? they should go willingly to go to their deaths? you have crazy logic to justify genocide!


by gregorianarpa march 1, 2010 12:22 am est
sarareds is it?

because for one, factual events which have been confirmed as well, factual events, should not put back in the question mark conversation.

and secondly, http://www.assyriatimes.com/engine/modules/news/article.php?storyid="3391"

and third, the turkish government sure does spend a heck of a lot of its money on their lobbying campaign, not to mention they've got lots more to "burn" if needed.


by haykology march 1, 2010 12:20 am est
thank you cbs, this was a very short but to the point about the armenian genocide. anyone who opposes the genocide must first study the armenian genocide, its facts, any studies available, then oppose... well, if you study the materials on the armenian genocide, there is no way to oppose it. therefore, i would discourage any childish comments without actually examining the facts of the armenian genocide. additionally, i am sure that soon or later, turkey will have to accept its horrific past, the armenian genocide, because they have no other choice. furthermore, jews were murdered in germany; however, armenians were murdered and deported from their homeland. that's the only difference between the armenian and the jewish genocides. armenians have lost their people and the 90% of their lands; however, jews lost only their people in another country and they even gained a lot after their genocides, such as israel...and billions of dollars to this date because of their loss. however, armenians have not gained anything.... just loss. if there was no genocide, why are there 11 million armenians outside of armenia and only 3 million armenians in armenia? that says it all.


by andrewkoseoglu march 1, 2010 12:32 am est
so is that it? you want money ?

by arattaworld march 1, 2010 12:20 am est
"in 1915 the turkish government began and ruthlessly carried out the infamous general massacre and deportation of armenians in asia minor...there is no reasonable doubt that the crime was planned and executed for political reasons. the opportunity presented itself for clearing turkish soil of a christian race."

--winston churchill "the world crisis: the aftermath" pg. 405




"deportation of and excesses against peaceful armenians is increasing and from the harrowing reports of eyewitnesses it appears that a campaign of race extermination is in progress under a pretext of a reprisal against rebillion."


---henry morgenthau, u.s. ambassador to turkey, telegram to the u.s. secretary of state, july 16, 1915


by nesgoldsmith march 1, 2010 12:18 am est
over 1.5 million is not the same as "some"


by moglislok march 1, 2010 12:15 am est
this world is bad not because of the presence of bad people but because good people see evil actions performed by bad people and do nothing. a.einstein

so mr obama are you good, bad , diplomatic or indifferent towards this particular theme ? you had a clear position prior to your presidentila elections.


by nesgoldsmith march 1, 2010 12:14 am est
so, no jew resisted the nazis during the holocaust? everyone went willingly?


by genocide40 march 1, 2010 12:12 am est
the us government only cares about moral issues when it can gain advantage.
the treatment of kurds by iraq was used to invade iraq. oil was the real motivation.
the genocide against hutus wasn't in us interest so it did nothing.
the genocide against the christians (armenians, greeks and assryians)
by the ottoman turks aren't in us interests (since they are an ally). hence, the us government avoids this issue--but it doesn't deny it.


by andrewkoseoglu march 1, 2010 12:12 am est
what we agree on is that people died. genocide requires deliberate action by the officals. a will to kill. that was not there


by arattaworld march 1, 2010 12:10 am est
international association of genocide scholars




http://www.genocidescholars.org/resolutionsstatements.html



resolutions & statements




-7 march 2009: letter to president obama from the iags for us recognition of the armenian genocide


-23 april 2008: "the cost of denial," by dr. gregory stanton, iags president at the congressional commemoration of the armenian genocide


-october 2007: iags letter to the us house of representatives foreign affairs committee calling for recognition of the armenian genocide


-13 july 2007: iags resolution on genocides against assyrians, greeks, armenians, and other christians by the ottoman empire


-13 june 2005: open letter to the turkish prime minister concerning the armenian genocide


-13 june 1997: iags resolution on the armenian genocide


by dena191 march 1, 2010 12:08 am est
there are none so blind as those who will not see.


by nesgoldsmith march 1, 2010 12:06 am est
@cbs & 60 minutes:
thank you for bringing up this issue. thank you for for reporting honestly and respectfully. this world is slowly falling apart because of greed, lies, deceit and politics. you would think that with all the similarities to the holocaust, israel would be the first to recognize the armenian genocide. but again, secret deals & politics take over honesty, logic, integrity & justice. the truth must come out.

help break the "template" of genocide by spreading the truth.


by periiz march 1, 2010 12:05 am est
here is the truth about how little the armenian-ottoman conflict has to do with the holocaust, as explained by professor bernard lewis, eminent historian and author of many books on the middle east and the ottoman empire ? and of jewish descent:
?[t]o make this a parallel with the holocaust in germany, you would have to assume the jews of germany had been engaged in an armed rebellion against the german state, collaborating with the allies against germany. that in the deportation order the cities of hamburg and berlin were exempted, persons in the employment of state were exempted, and the deportation only applied to the jews of germany proper, so that when they got to poland they were welcomed and sheltered by the polish jews. this seems to me a rather absurd parallel.?
(source: c-span2, reported on april 14, 2002)


by nesgoldsmith march 1, 2010 12:14 am est
so, no jew resisted the nazis during the holocaust? everyone went willingly?

by arattaworld march 1, 2010 12:02 am est
the armenian massacres didn't just take palce in 1915. there was an armenian massacre in 1911, 1909, 1905. in 1884 alone, over 350,000 armenians were massacret just for being armenian. after the creation of turkish republic, the turks have massacred those armenians who somehow survivied the 1915 massacres.

-before the 1915 massacre, the turish governemnt has arrested and assassinated the armenian intelligencia. no wonder winston churchill called the barbaric acts of the turks adminstrative holocaust.


by artbash february 28, 2010 11:59 pm est
"well, i don't think that it was anything to comparable to auschwitz. this was only deportation. and things happened on the road." this was turkey?s ambassador?s (sensoy?s) reply to simon?s comments about the countless number of bones in deir zor. mr. sensoy it?s impossible to murder a million plus people at their homes. the way you commit genocide is by the forceful removal of the population. that?s called deportation. deportation amounts to the loss of property, job, income, education, community, home, neighbors, neighborhoods, a way of life, people connections, church, monastery and nationhood. and mr. sensoy, what were the ?things? that ?happened on the road?? mr. sensoy, deportation of a nation and the ?things? that happened on the road (deaths of a large segment of the deported population by massacres, exposure, famine and disease) as a direct result of deportation, is defined as genocide.


by andrewkoseoglu february 28, 2010 11:59 pm est
usa government put japanese americans in camps during ww2 and some of those people died. should we called that a genocide too. i have heard only one eyewitness account from my friend's grandmother (armenian) she told the story of how she and her friends stoned a little turkish girl who was trying to hide in a tree, and how they killed her once she fell down.
there was murders on both sides, armenians formed armed gangs to take a piece of crumbling ottoman empire.
cbs peace was onesided and prejudios.


by dena191 march 1, 2010 12:08 am est
there are none so blind as those who will not see.

by nesgoldsmith march 1, 2010 12:18 am est
over 1.5 million is not the same as "some"

by periiz february 28, 2010 11:55 pm est
here is the truth about how little the armenian-ottoman conflict has to do with the holocaust, as explained by professor bernard lewis, eminent historian and author of many books on the middle east and the ottoman empire ? and of jewish descent:
?[t]o make this a parallel with the holocaust in germany, you would have to assume the jews of germany had been engaged in an armed rebellion against the german state, collaborating with the allies against germany. that in the deportation order the cities of hamburg and berlin were exempted, persons in the employment of state were exempted, and the deportation only applied to the jews of germany proper, so that when they got to poland they were welcomed and sheltered by the polish jews. this seems to me a rather absurd parallel.?
(source: c-span2, reported on april 14, 2002)


by sheriwriter february 28, 2010 11:53 pm est
thank you, cbs! thank you, 60 minutes! thank you, bob simon!

my grandfather survived the armenian genocide, but his mother and sisters did not. my grandmother lost her brother in the armenian genocide.

this is an important history that must be recognized and reconciled, by armenians, turks and the world.

until the world's citizens become aware of our collective histories we are doomed to repeat the past, including genocide (e.g. darfur, sudan, rwanda, bosnia, cambodian genocide under pol pot, holocaust, the rape of nanjing) [source: http://top10.wikia.com/wiki/genocides].

the esteemed turkish historian, taner ak?am's book, "a shameful act" outlines the facts about the armenian genocide using turkish, german, british and numerous other sources. professor peter balakian (featured in the 60 minutes segment) has now given us his great-uncle's masterful first-person eye-witness account of the armenian genocide with "armenian golgotha."

for more information and resources, please see: http://armeniangenocideblog.wordpress.com/


by jmanoukian february 28, 2010 11:52 pm est
even the turkish ambassador admitted that us non-recognition is not based on fact. his answer; "well, i think it's the importance of turkey for the united states. we have a long list of positive agenda between us," he replied.

notably, ronald reagan did use the word genocide.


by arattaworld february 28, 2010 11:51 pm est
haybaxt, why do you refer to the armenian-highland as anatolia? the armenian highland is the birth place of the armenian people. second, don't forget that turkey needs u.s. more then america needs the turks. 3. recognizing the genocide is not a moral issue, its a legal issue with political consequences.


by andrewkoseoglu march 1, 2010 12:25 am est
armenian people for once should stop trying to have other people do their fights. largest armenian population (outhside of armenia) still lives in turkey. maybe you should ask them what it's called.

by haybaxt february 28, 2010 11:43 pm est
thank you for telling the truth, everything is crystal clear: there was a genocide against the armenian population of anatolia, however we will not publicly recognize it because we need turkey. i strongly believe that it is not right to put side to side moral and political issues.


by arattaworld february 28, 2010 11:40 pm est
-international association of genocide scholars calls the armenian massacres a genocide.

-winston churchill called the barbaric acts of the turks administrative holocaust

-u.s. ambassador to turkey henry morgenthau characterized the turkish acts as extermination of a race

-before rapahel lemkin created the word geno-cide, had done his studies on the facts of armeno-cide

-41 u.s. states have officially recognized the armenian genocide

-the vatican city, the european union and its member countries have recognized the armenian genocide

while all the fact are on the table, the u.s. federal government lets the turks to bully the only super-power on the face of the earth.

genocide is a legal term used by the legislators. the elected officials of the u.s. congress have on obligation to meet the demands of the u.s. citizens.

the survivors of the armenian holocaust, thier children and grand-children, will never rest until the turks pay for all their crimes committed against humanity. genocide is a crime against humanity.

denial is the final stage of genocide.

the turks must not be permitted to post a single message in here since they arrest, impison, torture, and kill everyone who wold use the word genocide.


by lizzy1974 february 28, 2010 11:36 pm est
it is amazing on how many differant versions of the "turkish excuses" i've read just in these comments. come on now!!! can turks get there facts straight for once. one turk says it happened , the other says it didn't happen,the third says it happened but the numbers are off, the fourth says yes 1.5 million died in our hands but it's not genocide.

now on the other hand armenians, scholars,records, pictures etc... indicate one thing genocide!!!!! now it is time for turkey to except the facts and stop feeding it's people empty lies.


by andrewkoseoglu march 1, 2010 12:12 am est
what we agree on is that people died. genocide requires deliberate action by the officals. a will to kill. that was not there

by genocide40 february 28, 2010 11:33 pm est
to sarareds,
then why did turkey back out of the protocols? it always comes out with excuses! historians have already decided it was genocide! the international assoc. of genocide scholars. but tukey doesn't like these findings.


by arattaworld february 28, 2010 11:31 pm est
-the turkish governemnt today is committing a cultural genocide by destroying thousands of armenian churches, and everything else that is associated with the name armenia/armenian.


-denial is the final act of genocide.

-


by sarareds february 28, 2010 11:27 pm est
so mr. simon wants a commission...welcome to the club, turks want it since 2005.

if 60 minutes can lay the "genocide" question to rest in 12 minutes, why, one begs to ask, is the armenian lobby fightint it tooth and nail - despite the fact that turkey said it will accept its findings!


by raziye999 february 28, 2010 11:26 pm est
why don't you ,mention tens of turkish innocent diplomats massacred by armenian terrorists in this century? what about the massacres armenians committed on karabag region and killed thousands of azrebeycanis where europe and us watched it happen? where was humanity?????



by february 28, 2010 11:25 pm est
the turkish ambassador said ? there was no intention of annihilating in all or in part the armenian population. "

mr. ambassador, if you deport 1.5 million people and lose all of them on the way, then i think it is obvious that you meant to lose them.

thank you bob simon for a great report.


by arattaworld february 28, 2010 11:25 pm est
-international association of genocide scholars calls the armenian massacres a genocide.

-winston churchill called the barbaric acts of the turks administrative holocaust

-u.s. ambassador to turkey henry morgenthau characterized the turkish acts as extermination of a race

-before rapahel lemkin created the word geno-cide, had done his studies on the fact of armeno-cide

-41 u.s. states have of officially recognized the armenian genocide

-the vatican city, the european union and its member countries have recognized the armenian genocide

while all the fact are on the table, the u.s. federal government lets the turks to bully the only super-power on the face of the eart.

genocide is a lega term used by the legislators. the elected officials of the u.s. congress have on obligation to meet the demands of the u.s. citizens.

the survivors of the armenian holocaust, thier children and grand-children will never reast until the turks pay for all their crimes against humanity. genocide is a crim against humanity.


by raziye999 february 28, 2010 11:20 pm est
it is ********! how can the reporter say those are the bones of armenians? armenians killed hundreds of thousands of turkish and kurdish. has he ever thought that those can be the bones of turkish or kurdish?


by genocide40 february 28, 2010 11:19 pm est
turkey is israel's only muslim friend. why? there is an implicit agreement that israel won't recognize the genocide as long as turkey remains its ally.


by armenal february 28, 2010 11:11 pm est
my deepest gratitude to bob symon and "60 minutes" for airing this program. almost a century ago a katastrophy of total extermination of armenians living on their lands took place. there are many parallels in what happend to armenians in ottoman empire and jews in nazi germany. unfortunately, turks are not as civilized as germans and armenians are not as powerful as jews. and turkey is indeed important and powerful today. so until the power balance changes, or turkey hurts us or israel's intrerests, every year around springtime we will see the genocide issue being brought to the floor of congress and senat to keep turks inline. us realizes that this resolution is a one time bullet in the gun. it will be shot only once. so the gun is always loaded and the shot is never fired.


by navyrecon february 28, 2010 11:10 pm est
and how many of the congressmans are paid by armenian lobby?how many professors are in their payroll?dont forget that armenian ''dashnaks'' with the help of carist russia they where killing turks all over anatolia....action-reaction....why england does not recognize the ''so called genocide'',after all they where the ones (with paid miisionries to get usa on the board in ww1)fabricated so called ''blue book''....same goes for greeks,while turkey was attacked by many countries at same time,greeks had ''blank check'' and help from western powers to do and commite attrocities against turks with the promise by the western powers to carve the country and create ""megalia'',but what they didnt count was that turks would fight,and one after one eventually got kicked out and the last ones where greeks who without help from western power where 'doomed'' and chased by turks all away from outskirts of ankara to the present day borders...


by genocide40 february 28, 2010 11:10 pm est
quote from ataturk proving it was genocide. he is the founder of the turkish republic.

founder of the modern turkish republic in 1923 and revered throughout turkey, in an interview published on august 1, 1926 in the los angeles examiner, talking about former young turks in his country:

"these left-overs from the former young turk party, who should have been made to account for the millions of our christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse, from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the republican rule."


by uclastudent february 28, 2010 11:08 pm est
thank you cbs and 60 minutes for giving voice to all the victims that were silenced during the genocide. without recognition, wounds can never be healed. until this day, armenians feel the same pain that their ancestors did during the mass killings.


by raziye999 february 28, 2010 11:20 pm est
it is ********! how can the reporter say those are the bones of armenians? armenians killed hundreds of thousands of turkish and kurdish. has he ever thought that those can be the bones of turkish or kurdish?

by turkishgovermentrcowards february 28, 2010 11:08 pm est
can you believe that!!!!!!! they made our ancestors pay for their train ride to go to their death!!!


by arlet_verdi february 28, 2010 11:08 pm est
there's a mistake in this report about uttering the word "genocide" by none of the presidents of the usa.
i just want to correct mr. simon that actually the word genocide is already uttered by president reagan as follows:

"like the genocide of the armenians before it, and the genocide of the cambodians which followed it ? and like too many other such persecutions of too many other peoples ? the lessons of the holocaust must never be forgotten."

april 22, 1981


by ipeklisa february 28, 2010 10:47 pm est
why nobody didnt talk about turkish victims ????? they died to... dont you count them humanbeing???


by anoosh2010 february 28, 2010 10:46 pm est
dgal- all of the resources (so-called "historians") you cite are paid by the turkish government. they cannot read turkish any better than professor balakian can. your winded diatribe will do little to change the truth. why not look at eye-witness reports, photos, documentary evidence? every major newspaper in the world at that time reported on the turkish plan to exterminate its innocent armenian population. it has all been examined and proven. you also fail to cite turkish professor tanner ackam who in his treatise, "a shameful act" relies on primary turkish sources to establish that the actions of the young turks in the early 1900s did in fact meet the defintion of the term genocide. aaah- professor ackam does in fact read turkish...that is because he is a turk. but, much like the murdered hero hrant dink, professor ackam received death threats for speaking the truth in turkey. he can no longer safely return to his homeland. what kind of country is that? one where anyone who dares speak against the government ends up in jail or threatened or dead on a street?

notably, you also fail to cite rafael lemkin, the very individual who created the word genocide. mr. lemkin himself referre
d to the turkish anhilation of the armenian people as a basis for his creation of the word genocide.


by genocide40 february 28, 2010 10:41 pm est
historians have already decided it is genocide. this letter was written to the turkish president by the international association of genocide scholars: http://www.genocidescholars.org/images/openletterturkishpmrearmenia6-13-05.pdf


by dgal february 28, 2010 10:34 pm est
your report makes one wonder about the veracity of your other reports on 60 minutes. the verbal battle over history, as bob simon presents it, is one sided, so skewed that it hardly deserves serious attention of real scholars. the only turkish authority on your program was the turkish ambassador, hardly the historian with the figures and facts at his fingertips. mr. simon ought to have interviewed historian scholars such as bernard lelwis, justin mccarthy, stanford shaw, et al. actual historians who have unanimously come to the conclusion that "there was no evidence of a state sponsored genocide." true, there were deportations that were precipitated by the acts of armenian terrorism being perpetrated in eastern anatolia against turkish/ muslim population with the objective of creating a separate armenia in the territory by taking advantage of ottoman empire being weakened by the onslaught of world war i on other fronts. thousands of turkish/muslim civilians (women, children, old men included) were slaughtered by the armenian separatists in van, and adjoining provinces in the spring of 1915. the armenian terrorist aim for slaughtering the local turkish/muslim population was to make sure that the ottoman young turk administration would respond with heavy reprisals, making the turks look bad to europe. europe never needed much incentive to to hate turks anyway. but the armenian political entity calling themselves dashnag had little concern over their own armenian folks, sacrificed for fulfilling their political ends, another main component of which was to collaborate with russia which at the time was in conflict with the ottoman empire, having invaded eastern anatolia. and, true to form, the young turk adminstration, under great attacks on all fronts (remember gallipoli, arabia, baghdad, balkans, etc. etc.) decided to solve the armenian treachery of collaborating with russia by deporting armenians from the eastern provinces to syria where they could not give cover to dashnag armenians and armenian detachments in the russian army. it was an ill thought solution, perhaps, that involved the deaths of so many armenians who died of starvation and disease on the way, and who were attacked and massacred by local bandits and murderers who were, on the whole, of kurdish descent. turks mourn the deaths of their armenian co-nationalists of the period. as they mourn today over the assassination of hrant dink, the armenian journalist. a million istanbulites turned up at dink's funeral, weeping over his loss. when did you ever hear of any armenians weeping over the loss of hundreds of thousands of turks their ancestors murdered in eastern anatolia, let alone the loss of a single turkish diplomat that armenian assassins murdered since the '70s--seventy-six diplomats and intellectuals killed in the service of armenian vengeance. so, mr. simon, when you dredge up the name of hrant dink, you ought to look up the whole story. mr. balakian is hardly a reliable source of historical information. he's basically a creative writer who has no access to primary sources. he doesn't read turkish, and one cannot imagine he reads armenian, either. his information is often very shaky if not totally false. his only source is the trumped up version of ambassador morgenthau's so called memoir, my story, which was doctored up by his armenian secretary and armenian legal advisor in istanbul. morgenthau did not know any of the four languages being used in istanbul at the time, turkish, french, greek, armenian. so he relied completely on his armenian advisors whose veracity was questioned by the subsequent american ambassador, bristol, who had a different take on what really went on. yet ambassador bristol's papers are repressed while morgenthaus' souped up versions are held to be written in stone. like morgenthau, mr simon too, today, takes balakian's word that istanbul armenians were deported to zor in syria, but in fact the deportees on the main were not from istanbul. the deportees were from the buffer war zone between russia. it was not an "ethnic cleansing." how could it be when all through the ottoman centuries armenians were officially deemed to be "the favorite nation" of the empire. it's too bad that mr simon disgraces himself by falling into shameless sensationalist reportage. one hopes that in the future he acquaints himself with accounts from real historians whose last names don't end with "ian"!


by valeriejeanmccaffrey february 28, 2010 11:00 pm est
it is one sided because it is the truth. truth only has one side. you must be a turk. you continue to
insult the dead who perished in the hands on the turks. how dare you!! i know morgenthau's grandson.
know the facts!!

by anoosh2010 february 28, 2010 10:25 pm est
bernard lewis is not a valid resource. he is on the turkish government's payroll. moreover he does not speak or read turkish. how he can make the conclusions you cite without speaking or reading turkish is dubious. you should try a neutral resource. even better, one on the ground in turkey in 1915. oh, but then you would not get the quotes you want:{


by valeriejeanmccaffrey february 28, 2010 11:01 pm est
i agree. he looked like he was hiding something, didn't he? maybe he had a script he was reading?

by sarareds february 28, 2010 10:24 pm est
gill veinstein, professor, turkish and ottoman history, coll?ge de france. [info]

?government and society in ottoman, xvie-xviiie centuries? (1994)
related publications

?trois questions sur un massacre? (1994) l?histoire, n?187, april 1995 (three questions about a massacre, translated from the original french)

source: veinstein, l?histoire, n?187, april 1995

"on june 1, 1915, the ottoman government ordered the transfer of the armenians of central and eastern anatolia towards syria, still a possession of the ottomans at that time. it was during these transfer operations that an immense number of armenians perished. this tragedy was the result of a multiplicity of events which proceeded in various places in 1915 and 1916, and in which the horror took very diverse forms. "

"suffering, malnutrition, poor hygiene, and epidemics caused a large part of the deaths (3), but it is necessary also to take account of massacres, which were crimes against humanity. these happened because of inter-communal settlements of accounts, and in these not only turks, but also kurds, were involved. the convoys were attacked and plundered, and some of the soldiers supposed to be supervising the operation were caught up in this. besides, it is undeniable, in certain cases at least, that the crimes were perpetrated with the open or tacit co-operation of local authorities."

"the reality of the massacres, and even their extent, are not questioned by anybody, including commentators in turkey. the american demographer justin mccarthy, for example, estimates that the whole of the armenians of anatolia did not exceed a million and a half people on the eve of the world-wide conflict, and that, taking into account the figure for survivors, approximately 600,000 armenians perished in anatolia in 1915; that is to say, about half of the community (4)."


"secondly, there were also very many victims among the moslems throughout the war, because of combat but also of actions conducted against them by armenians, in a context of ethnic and national rivalry (5). if there are forgotten victims, it is they, and the turks of today have the right to denounce the partiality of the western opinion in this respect. were they forgotten about because they were only moslems?"


?it is true that official involvement is a precondition for us to apply to the armenian tragedy the term, ?genocide?, as used in 1944 and defined in the nuremberg trials and the u.n. convention of 1948. but we must admit that we do not so far have proof that the government was involved in this way. the documents produced by the armenians, in which talat pasha, minister of the interior, and other official top ottomans explicitly order the slaughter of men, women, and armenian children, designated as the "andonian documents," after the name of their editor, were absolute forgeries, as historical research has shown (6).?


by lakefront35 february 28, 2010 10:24 pm est
here are a few facts for you:

demographic studies prove that prior to world war i fewer than 1.5 million armenians lived in the entire ottoman empire. thus, allegations that more than 1.5 million armenians from eastern anatolia died must be false.

i would like to point out that the ottoman empire was deporting the armenians in the eastern anatolian region because they were stabbing turks from back with russians while the armenians in the western part of the anatolia were living peacefully with their muslim neighbors. and they were not subject to deportation. so, you call it genocide? isn?t that interesting?

over 2.5 million muslims died during the same period from similar causes. how about that? let?s call it genocide as well. i suggest cbs to make a program about that as well.

so, who is going to decide whose facts are real facts? politicians, us congress, cbs, france, or diasporas. but not historians?

by the way, i strongly recommend the armenian diasporas to help their own country men and women who need better economy and life standards in armenia instead of spending their time and money on this nonsense so-called genocide.


by merdmar february 28, 2010 10:24 pm est
why don't you refer to us ambassador, h. morgentaou's reports as well?


by genocide40 february 28, 2010 10:24 pm est
are the assryians, greeks and armenians lying about the christian genocides against them?
assryian genocide: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/assyrian_genocide
greek genocide www.greekgenocide.org
armenian genocide: http://www.armenian-genocide.org/


by merdmar february 28, 2010 10:19 pm est
did you notice the turkish ambassador's answer? he didn't say that 8 former us secretaries wer defending turkey because genocide is not true, but because, what it means "they realize the importance of turkey".. isn't that shame? isn't this indirect acceptance of the truth?


by aakaraz february 28, 2010 10:16 pm est
thank you 60 minutes. you have done what others have swept under the rug. you have reported the truth. my father never saw his father as he was taken away from his house. my pregant grandmother survived by pretending to be dead and lay under a number of dead bodies thrown in a pit. she had the knife wounds on her back to prove the autrocities. when the turks left them for dead, she got up, and in order to survive, she ate the grains left in the manour of the horses. these turks truly did an ethnic cleansing, a genocide which they deny. it is time for them to accept what their ancestors did so we, the armenians, can move on.


by genocide40 february 28, 2010 10:14 pm est
turkey spends millions on genocide denial. it gives millions to universities to deny the genocide: http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2008/summer/state-of-denial

why?


by merdmar february 28, 2010 10:12 pm est
thank you and deepest appreciation to 60 minutes for today's segment about the armenian genocide. being from syria, i've visited der elzor and that same cave...my grandparents were genocide survivors. idon't care what games do turkey play. i know for sure; what they did is a genocide!
what does american want more than their then ambassador's reports about genocide? what? you don't trust or believe him?


by sarareds february 28, 2010 10:09 pm est
"armenian story has another side" by norman stone,british historian and author of "world war i: a short history," chicago tribune, october 17, 2007.

[ } in 1914, when world war i began in earnest, armenians living in what is now turkey attempted to set up a national state. armenians revolted against the ottoman government, began what we would now call "ethnic cleansing" of the local turks. their effort failed and caused the government to deport most armenians from the area of the revolt for security reasons. their sufferings en route are well-known.

today, armenian interests in america and abroad are well-organized. what keeps them united is the collective memory of their historic grievance. what happened was not in any way their fault, they believe. if the drive to carve out an ethnically pure armenian state was a failure, they reason, it was only because the turks exterminated them.

[] what makes the armenians' dreadful fate so much worse than the dreadful fates that come with every end of empire? it is here that historians must come in.

first, allegedly critical evidence of the crime consists of forgeries. the british were in occupation of istanbul for four years after the war and examined all of the files of the ottoman government. they found nothing, and therefore could not try the 100-odd supposed turkish war criminals that they were holding. then, documents turned up, allegedly telegrams from the interior ministry to the effect that all armenians should be wiped out. the signatures turned out to be wrong, there were no back-up copies in the archives and the dating system was misunderstood.

there are many other arguments against a supposed genocide of the armenians. their leader was offered a post in the turkish cabinet in 1914, and turned it down. when the deportations were under way, the populations of the big cities were exempted -- istanbul, izmir, aleppo, where there were huge concentrations of armenians. there were indeed well-documented and horrible massacres of the deportee columns, and the turks themselves tried more than 1,300 men for these crimes in 1916, convicted many and executed several. none of this squares with genocide, as we classically understand it. finally, it is just not true that historians as a whole support the genocide thesis. the people who know the background and the language (ottoman turkish is terribly difficult) are divided, and those who do not accept the genocide thesis are weightier. the armenian lobby contends that these independent and highly esteemed historians are simply "ottomanists" -- a ridiculously arrogant dismissal.

unfortunately, the issue has never reached a properly constituted court. if the armenians were convinced of their own case, they would have taken it to one. instead, they lobby bewildered or bored parliamentary assemblies to "recognize the genocide."

congress should not take a position, one way or the other, on this affair. let historians decide. the turkish government has been saying this for years. it is the armenians who refuse to take part in a joint historical review, even when organized by impeccably neutral academics. this review is the logical and most sensible path forward. passage of the resolution by the full house of representatives would constitute an act of legislative vengeance and would shame well-meaning scholars who want to explore this history from any vantage point other than the one foisted upon the world by ultranationalist armenians.


by merdmar february 28, 2010 10:24 pm est
why don't you refer to us ambassador, h. morgentaou's reports as well?

by polarcents february 28, 2010 10:08 pm est
there is a clear reason why united states presidents and secretaries of state have consistently rejected adoption of the armenian diaspora demands for a genocide resolution against turkey. it's because it is not in the interest of the united states of america. it's also hypocritical. what would we think of turkey if turkey's government voted a resolution stating that our "relocation" of the cherokee indians was genocide?

this 10-minute infomercial for the armenian lobby and it's never ending assault on the u.s. congress to approve a genocide resolution is thin indeed. mr. simon travels to a mound of dirt and discovers some bones and from that extrapolates that "there might be thousands of dead here". he doesn't know for sure but then again there might be. a cave in the area where people died "may" have been the forerunner of one of hitler's ovens. he also seemed to suggest that the turks changed their alphabet to conceal a genocide. does anyone at cbs have a clue about the history of the period or more importantly even care?

this report will infuriate turks, strengthen those who feed on the discension in the area, and slow progress toward peace for both turks and armenians.


by aakaraz february 28, 2010 10:49 pm est
the truth that 60 minutes aired hurts the turks, doesn't it. how about the 1.5 million armenians the turks hurt and killed in the so called deportation. just ask the armenian children of those whose parents somehow survived the genocide. progress will only occur if the turks accept what their ancestors did.

by sarareds february 28, 2010 10:04 pm est
bernard lewis, professor emeritus, princeton university, author of seminal books on the middle east and the ottoman empire has this to say about comparing the holocaust to the armenian tragedy:

statement of professor bernard lewis, professor emeritus for near eastern studies, princeton university on book tv also available on you tube - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v="qG70UWESfu4"

"what happened to the armenians was the result of a massive armenian armed rebellion against the turks, which began even before war broke out, and continued on a larger scale. great numbers of armenians, including members of the armed forces, deserted, crossed the frontier and joined the russian forces invading turkey. armenian rebels actually seized the city of van and held it for a while intending to hand it over to the invaders. there was guerilla warfare all over anatolia. and it is what we nowadays call the national movement of armenians against turkey. the turks certainly resorted to very ferocious methods in repelling it. there is clear evidence of a decision by the turkish government, to deport the armenian population from the sensitive areas. which meant naturally the whole of anatolia. not including the arab provinces which were then still part of the ottoman empire. there is no evidence of a decision to massacre. on the contrary, there is considerable evidence of attempt to prevent it, which were not very successful. yes there were tremendous massacres, the numbers are very uncertain but a million nay may well be likely. the massacres were carried out by irregulars, by local villagers responding to what had been done to them and in number of other ways. but to make this, a parallel with the holocaust in germany, you would have to assume the jews of germany had been engaged in an armed rebellion against the german state, collaborating with the allies against germany. that in the deportation order the cities of hamburg and berlin were exempted, persons in the employment of state were exempted, and the deportation only applied to the jews of germany proper, so that when they got to poland they were welcomed and sheltered by the polish jews. this seems to me a rather absurd parallel."


by anoosh2010 february 28, 2010 10:25 pm est
bernard lewis is not a valid resource. he is on the turkish government's payroll. moreover he does not speak or read turkish. how he can make the conclusions you cite without speaking or reading turkish is dubious. you should try a neutral resource. even better, one on the ground in turkey in 1915. oh, but then you would not get the quotes you want:{

by gandzak february 28, 2010 10:00 pm est
few important background details were not pointed out in this story probably due to time limitations:

1. turks are not native to the lands they currently occupy. their nomadic ancestors came from asia and destroyed ancient greek, armenian, assyrian and other christian civilizations replacing them with muslim ottoman empire.

2. turks fought that world war i on the wrong side against usa, britain, france, russia, australia, new zealand, etc. and lost that war.

3. while loosing on the battle field (australian and nz forces just landed on their shores on april 23, 1915) they turned their armies against christian civilian populations starting with armenians on april 24, 1915.

4. armenians could not resist this government sponsored campaign because their men were conscripted into the turkish army and killed there by turks while armenian elderly, women and children were killed in their villages or during the deportation death marches to nowhere.

5. turkey continued it's hostilities against christian minorities throughout it's modern history organizing pogroms and deportations and even occupying cyprus.

6. many terrorists arrested in the us and other countries after 9/11 are turks.

7. after getting rid of christian minorities they turned their army against non-turkic muslim kurds.

8. turkey closed its border with armenia unilaterally (which is an act of war) in support of a turkic ally azerbaijan, a neighboring country that was loosing a war it started against its own armenian population. this modern history (1990s) is proof that turkey didn't change and still views genocide as a solution. this is a direct consequence of the 1915 armenian genocide not being properly recognized and punished.

9. the sad part of all of this is that american taxpayers pay for all of this (terrorist support, government sponsored genocide denial, occupation of cyprus, war on kurdish civilian minority, etc.) by sending billions of dollars to turkey as part of us-turkish military cooperation.


by hayo10 march 1, 2010 12:26 am est
1. omg,we came to anatolia in 1071 and you still think that we are not natives to this land!who is then? do you think english are not native to england because they conquered it in 1066?should angles kick the saxons out? are you sane?
2. if you really want our lands, then don't ask for to your uncles in washington, come to kars, artvin, ask us for some land! do you think that it's that easy to take land, you'll ask your big brother and he'll give our land to you?come on, be reasonable,land is not given to you, it can only be taken by you.
3. wuuuu,many terrorist are turks!! " hey american brother, you should hate the turks as much as we do!"
4. what happened to those anzacs you mentioned? did they just leave because they prefered the beaches of sydney to dardanelles?
5. well i'm sick of this stuff. just have some real questions? why on earth we wanted to kill all armenians that we lived together for centuries? why on earth you guys had(still have) turkish surnames which just end with "ian-son" if we hated you that much throughout history? how on earth armenians worked for ottoman ministries, became sultan's doctors, bankers, if we were always hostile to our minorities? why armenians were called the millet-i sadika-the loyal nation? what, who triggered this deportation? have you ever taught about it?

by andrewkoseoglu march 1, 2010 1:05 am est
you are a liar and a coward.

by genocide40 february 28, 2010 9:54 pm est
to rize54,
the hunting rifles were taken away from the armenians. the men were put in labor battaions. they couldn't revolt. they were taken away. hence, only women and children were left in the towns! why were they killed? the women and children were killed in the syrian deserts. the german sources and missionaries testify that the armenian areas were quiet before they were taken away to their deaths.
why were christians killed? it wasn't only the armenians. there was genocides against the greeks and assryians. why?


by kent_az february 28, 2010 9:46 pm est
excellent post.

ironically, in the u.s. holocaust deniers are castigated--and rightly so--but here we have a case where our government itself denies a similar case of genocide for political and military purposes.


by kent_az february 28, 2010 9:43 pm est
this is yet more evidence--as if we needed any--of america's amorality, especially in relation to its foreign and military policy. the fact is that, despite posturing and propaganda designed to portray the u.s. as a force for international freedom, morality, etc., our government has made and continues to make alliances with countries and leaders who commit egregious crimes and human rights violations.

when it is politically expedient to do so the crimes and atrocities of other countries are publicized and utilized as a rational for economic and/or military intervention. meanwhile, many of america's allies--such as turkey--behave as badly or even worse than our enemies. thus the hypocrisy of u.s. claims to stand on moral high ground.

by archeia february 28, 2010 9:42 pm est
"the armenian citizen has not forgiven
the slaughter of his father in the kurdish mountains.
but he loves you,
because you also won't forgive
those who blackened the name of the turkish people."
~ nazim hikmet

i hope the us finally takes a stand of conscience rather than convenience. the image america is projecting to the world is getting weak. if france was able to demonstrate that standing firm in the memory of the 1915 armenian genocide could be done without great harm to international relations, why can't the us - the seemingly 'most powerful nation' in the world?

60 minutes, this is a wonderful segment and i hope this reaches more people. denial of holocaust or any violations of human rights is a grave human error indeed! quite sadly, those humans are the people we place in the governments. i hope obama changes things.


by jbbpbecker february 28, 2010 9:40 pm est
i admired your piece about the armenian genocide. it was a truth that had to be told. just like an individual living a lie, a government that consistently lies to the people will eventually implode. the turkish government needs to just come clean. it's the only way they can move on.


by hyetad2010 february 28, 2010 9:32 pm est
thank you 60 minutes for not caving into pressure from the turks. the armenian genocide is a proven fact yet turkey still denies. one day soon the government of turkey and its people will own up to the truth and admit to what they did to armenians


by sevdalian february 28, 2010 9:31 pm est
thank you cbs for this report. my father and grandmother walked through seryian desert and months latter arrived in jerusalem. grandmother witnessed the genocide in derzour. her husband was shot in front of her after the turks pulled all his finger nails and killed two of my fathers brother who were kids. my father survived because my grandmother dressed him in a little girls outfit. i was disappointed that cbs tv screen was covered 95% with the turkish flag. i thought at the bottom i saw a very small of the armenian flag. to me the armenian flag is as important as the turkish flag.


by bluej511 february 28, 2010 9:17 pm est
you are very highly uneducated my friend its very sad. you think the land turkey is on is turkish or ottoman are you kidding me? most of the turkish lands surrounding armenia goes back way before christ. most of you're turkish land is armenian. grow up, get educated, then come back and post. as far as you're jewish state yea you're right its much better to give them the land that palestinians had for thousands of years.


by tikac94 february 28, 2010 9:14 pm est
i would like to say very special thanks to bob simon.
thank you very much sir.
you have won respect and support of all armenians around the world.
god bless you and your family.
thank you


by tikac94 february 28, 2010 9:13 pm est
i hope that the next generations of turkey will be smart, wise and powerful enough to admit the fact of armenian genocide.
again and again thank you 60 minutes.


by abrahamianaa february 28, 2010 9:13 pm est
actually, respective groups of jews rose against their nazi oppressors over the course of world war ii, the most famous example being the warsaw ghetto uprising. besides, jews are not uniquely a germanic people. due to their lack of a homeland, they have migrated throughout the world and, during the time of wwii, settled throughout europe, russia, and america. so, your argument on the establishment a jewish state on german soil is not relevant. the armenians, however, are a people of the caucauses. previously, the land taken by turkey was settled by a large population of armenians who were the majority ethnic group. therefore, their demands for that land to be part of the armenian state (which it bordered) makes sense.

if by terrorizing the german countryside, you mean defending themselves against soldiers who killed men, raped women, and murdered children, you would probably be right. the armenian fedayees (freedom fighters) were probably seen as terrorists to the turks, but their actions can be justified due to the turkish atrocities committed against their people. as i mentioned earlier, even the jews are "guilty" of these same actions by rising up against their nazi oppressors.

by refusing to recognize the similarities between the armenian genocide and the jewish holocaust, you are not only ignoring the ultimate fate of the 1.5 million armenian men, women, and children, you are also insulting the memory of 6 million jews. i doubt the jewish people who died during the holocaust cared about their status as genocide victims. why should we today make distinctions between the two events? in the course of human history, both are distinct as they represent all that is not human, namely the willingness to demonize and kill large numbers of people.


by kent_az february 28, 2010 9:46 pm est
excellent post.

ironically, in the u.s. holocaust deniers are castigated--and rightly so--but here we have a case where our government itself denies a similar case of genocide for political and military purposes.

by tikac94 february 28, 2010 9:12 pm est
thank you very much for 10 minute truth about armenian genocide that has been rejected for centuries by turkish government. turkish government do not have other choice, and one day they are going to admit the armenian genocide. they can lie to the world as they have been doing, that the armenian genocide has never happened, but how they are going to lie to themselves and live with that.
thank you again from entire armenian nation for this program.


by grantlex february 28, 2010 9:05 pm est
thank you 60 minutes!!! what a wonderful segment on the truth of the armenian genocide. it was so obvious the turkish ambassador was lying... just look at his eyes. disgraceful.
thank you again 60 minutes!


by genocide40 february 28, 2010 9:03 pm est
read about the genocide: http://www.genocidescholars.org/resolutionsstatements.html


by amymhis february 28, 2010 8:34 pm est
this was a wonderful clip, i would love to purchase a dvd copy of this!


by rize53 february 28, 2010 8:14 pm est
holocaust is a uniquely true tragedy, while the alleged genocide is a wartime suffering that involves revolts and retaliations. did jews establish jewish armies behind german lines, join invaders, terrorize the german countryside, demand german territories, in order to establish a jewish state on german soil? of course, not. armenian, on the other hand, did all that and much more before, during, and after wwi. how can the two be uttered in the same breath? isn't that an insult to the silent memories of six million jews exterminated for just being jews?..?


by abrahamianaa february 28, 2010 9:13 pm est
actually, respective groups of jews rose against their nazi oppressors over the course of world war ii, the most famous example being the warsaw ghetto uprising. besides, jews are not uniquely a germanic people. due to their lack of a homeland, they have migrated throughout the world and, during the time of wwii, settled throughout europe, russia, and america. so, your argument on the establishment a jewish state on german soil is not relevant. the armenians, however, are a people of the caucauses. previously, the land taken by turkey was settled by a large population of armenians who were the majority ethnic group. therefore, their demands for that land to be part of the armenian state (which it bordered) makes sense.

if by terrorizing the german countryside, you mean defending themselves against soldiers who killed men, raped women, and murdered children, you would probably be right. the armenian fedayees (freedom fighters) were probably seen as terrorists to the turks, but their actions can be justified due to the turkish atrocities committed against their people. as i mentioned earlier, even the jews are "guilty" of these same actions by rising up against their nazi oppressors.

by refusing to recognize the similarities between the armenian genocide and the jewish holocaust, you are not only ignoring the ultimate fate of the 1.5 million armenian men, women, and children, you are also insulting the memory of 6 million jews. i doubt the jewish people who died during the holocaust cared about their status as genocide victims. why should we today make distinctions between the two events? in the course of human history, both are distinct as they represent all that is not human, namely the willingness to demonize and kill large numbers of people.

by bluej511 february 28, 2010 9:17 pm est
you are very highly uneducated my friend its very sad. you think the land turkey is on is turkish or ottoman are you kidding me? most of the turkish lands surrounding armenia goes back way before christ. most of you're turkish land is armenian. grow up, get educated, then come back and post. as far as you're jewish state yea you're right its much better to give them the land that palestinians had for thousands of years.

by kojak1971 february 28, 2010 8:10 pm est
congrats to 60 minutes for tackling such a sensitive topic and revealing the truth of the turkish people then and today. even if a minority, the people then, who supported and condoned the dispicable acts committed towards the armenians, greek and assyrians should have been held responsible. along with our governments who allowed those events to be covered for so many years. today, it still happens as another group of people, the kurds continue to fight for their own freedom and a country to call their own. and this fight is against the turkish government which portrays itself as a secular state, yet in truth is a military dictatorship, benefitting from the billions of dollars the u.s. and its allies pour into that muslim nation. i am a proud american however when money will not alter the actions of your ally ( do not forget the initial request of the u.s. to launch its attacks on iraq from turkey were initially turned down even after a hefty payout of billions of dollars was offered to turkey) the initial attacks were launched from their true allies? land, a democracy like itself, greece. then things need to change.

turkey is not secular. turkey is not an ally. turkey is an asian country. turkey should not be part of europe or the european union. turkey has committed and continues to commit human rights violations and until they take responsibility for their actions, admit their wrong doings and implement measures to change their ways, turkey should prove itself to the u.s. and the rest of the world.

all nations, christian, muslim, buddhist, wherever your religious beliefs lie, it is about what?s right and what?s wrong. it is a moral law we should all follow no matter who the god. we should all try to make this place a better world to live in. admit the past and learn from it to become better.


by navyrecon february 28, 2010 10:50 pm est
my dear friend nothing was launched from greece in iraqi invasion....i remember when the nato attacked yugoslavia in 99 and our troops(us) landed in greece ,in salonika,where we had a larg contingent of troops going toawrds macedoniya,to kosova to implement the peace,large number of greeks protested our military and they where calling us babykillers,i was there and i saw it with my own eyes,they didnt wanted their soil to be launchin pad against their ortodox serbian brothers...anyway most of the greeks they dislike america and thats the thruth....most of them they they like and always liked ruskies and their orthodox bros...if greece is democracy how come minorities they dont have rights?(i forgot,in greek constitution there is no minorities)what about albanian chams?did greek government kick albanian chams for'''collaboriting with germans'''?

by anoosh2010 february 28, 2010 8:05 pm est
bravo, cbs news on a job well done. your piece shows the reality that armenians are facing today. the turkish government's policy of bullying everyone into ignoring the truth was never more evident than during mr. simon's interview with the turkish ambassador. what turkey does not realize is that if it actually stood up, admitted the truth, apologized and offered reparations than this would be over. instead because of the turkish government's riduculous lies and denials and it becomes an issue year after year. its been 95 years and we have not forgotten. nor will we ever forget.
.

1 comments:

Murat / NY USA said...

In summary, there was no Ottoman official or unofficial policy of extermination, no such orders to anyone, no such startegy, no concentration camps, no gas chambers, no 1.5M Armenians dead or alive, and no genocide as we all understand in the modern sense of the word a century later.

What exactly happened is no mystery and details are all open and available. Seems like everyone is arguing abut sementics. Sure there was ethnic cleansing, "tehcir", in the form forced relocations. In the middle of WWI of course this was messy and made much worse by the continuing brutality by Armenians against Muslim towns and civilians and their direct cooperation with Russians, which was the main reason for the extreme measures by Ottomans in the first place. Their openly declared intention was to establish a Greater Armenia in the ethnically cleansed lands of Eastern Anatolia where they were at the time a minority.

Ottomans are history, but Armenian revolutionaries are still carrying their bloody campaign of hate.

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