372) The Historical Background of the Armenian Question -Prof. Hasan Koni and Prof. Kemal Simsek - -TRT INT TV Talk Transcript

Köni: Dear viewers, today we will consider the Armenian question which we have been repeatedly studying for 25 years and which our Western allies are not yet tired of studying. Our guest is a member of the Turkish Historical Society also working under the Branch of the Armenian Question Prof. Kemal Simsek.

-Welcome Professor.

Simsek: -Well-received Professor.

Köni :The power of propaganda of . . . Westerners or Armenians who have emigrated to the West has always exceeded ours. I don't know whether they had a PR company working for them but we mostly had to tackle the American Armenian lobby on the terrorist activities. How did it all start? How did they go and settle there? What was their position? How did they develop this propaganda? Shall we talk about that?

Simsek : Alright. When I studied the achieves in the United States of America on behalf of the Branch of the Armenian Question to tell the truth, I didn't expect that Armenians could have been so well-organized right after the emigrations.

Köni :-Were they organized?

Simsek : -They were very well organized. For instance, it is said that the Armenian emigration to America have started at a very early period but as you know very well it got intense after 1880. That is, first it was 1,000, then it was 10,000 then 51,000 Armenians emigrated until 1914 according to official figures. Interesting thing is that, a majority of them were sent to America by the missionary organizations in Turkey. Only men went there at first. But later; upon the arousal of Armenian nationalism it became a systematic action. You would think the men went first, then invited their wives. But no, that wasn't the case. Young girls were sent to be married to Armenian men in America so that they wouldn't marry anyone else. This is a very interesting situation.


Missionaries in Turkey sympathized with Armenians for being Christians but the situation denies the theses claiming that they had no influence in the arousal of Armenian nationalism or the development of terrorist activities. During a research, I came across very interesting figures. They attracted my attention in two ways. As you know, the Armenian incidents in Turkey started from 1895 on. Before that, an international question of Armenians aroused in Berlin in 1878 with Article 61. Reforms were suggested and it was decided that European states would superintend these reforms but the situation did not involve great conflicts between Turks and Armenians, did it?

Before the Zeytun uprising in 1895 it's interesting that very important events took place in America. For instance, I found out a very interesting person. Harry the Turk. His real name is Muhammed. But there were very few Turks in America then so he had become an American. I studied the minutes of his trial. I'll get to that in a minute, but this man was killed by Armenians. He didn't know any other language than Turkish but his friends called him Harry the Turk. This person was killed by Armenians in 1896 in Rhode Island just because he was Turkish. The incident took place in the newspapers of those days and the murder investigation led to a correspondence between America and Turkey that lasted for 12-13 years. It was actually an “unsolved murder case� as we call today. Finding out about this incident was very interesting for me. How could it be that a Turk was murdered in America just for being a Turk? Was the tension between Turks and Armenians in Turkey also transported to America? It aroused that question in my mind. When I extended my research I saw that Hunchak and Dashnak Parties established in Ceneva etc starting from 1887 and in 1890 immediately opened branch offices in America. So we see that Armenians had started to organize in America as well starting from 1887. In addition to the offices of Hunchak and Dashnak Parties which were Armenian organizations there were associations established to organize young Armenians similar to Young Men's Christian Association.

Köni : Which was later closed down by Atatürk.

Simsek : The association closed down by Atatürk. The branch Armenian Young Men's Christian Association was established in 1892. I find it quite interesting that it was established in 1892 because there were no actions in Turkey taken against Armenians so far. The increase in the number of such organizations like the Armenia Russian Revolutionists or like support groups for Armenians or Armenian branches of separate churches led to lots of organizations in various states of America. Although they denied the murder they held their first demonstration for Harry the Turk. Actually, he was a very insignificant person. Turks and Armenians used to live in the same neighborhood. They probably fought over something we don't know. But there were depositions in the trial minutes denoting that he was killed as a Turk because Turks had killed so many Armenians. Another interesting thing is that Armenian associations and particularly the Hunchaks have a great power in America. For instance, they say there were 10,000 Armenians in America then and that 3,000 of them were members of the Hunchak Party.

Köni:That is almost one third of entire population.

Simsek: Yes, we get that information from a newspaper published in New York in those days. Our ambassador Mavroyeni collected newspaper clippings day by day and sent them both to Istanbul and the American Secretary of State as a warning. These parties first organized a demonstration in New York in 1893. That also sounds very interesting. It seems to me like these incidents started in America. The tension between the Turks and American Armenians were staged in the streets of New York even before anything happened in Zeytun and Sason insomuch that, during the demonstration held in New York Armenians carried hand grenades, weapons and banners saying that Christians were being killed in Turkey to try and attract American's attention to the issue and asked the American government to take precautions against Turkey to stop the so-called killings of Christians in Turkey.

Köni :You have made a very good determination. There were 325 American schools in Turkey in those days operating under the Ottoman Empire. These schools were trying to convert the Orthodox Christians whom they found close to themselves to Protestantism. They used their standing in doing that. Similar to the way they used the Kurds to come to the Middle East today America tried to use these Jewish and Armenian minorities to come to the Middle East in those days for all these killings were written by American Protestant priests. So you have made a very good determination. They were already preparing from within.

Simsek : Certainly, a very important Characteristic of the Armenian associations in America is that they were sending the militants they had to Turkey. All organizations need a powerful patron behind them. America was a potential powerful patron then. Therefore Hunchak and Dashnak organizations made very good use of that potential. They armed and militarized young men filled them in with their ideas then sent them to Turkey. I don't know if we should scrutinize on that but the relations between Turkey and the United States of America were not all that good. A commercial treaty was signed during 1830s but commerce between the two countries were close to nothing.

Köni: Certainly.

Simsek :However, the diplomatic relations between Turkey and America deteriorated due to those Armenian organizations. Because Armenians discovered a treasure in America a conservative community which had pity for Christians and tended to pour funds to Armenians or the so-called oppressed Christians in Turkey.

Köni :That is correct.

Simsek:They consciously tried to make use of that community. I'll just say this to give you an idea. The amount of money raised for the Armenians in America between 1915 and 1925 is 150 million dollars. It's incredible. If you think how little Turkey's relation with foreign exchange was it's a great sum of money. These funds may be seen in the annual reports of the Congress. As you know, this organization which later assumed the title the Near East Relief submitted its financial reports to the Congress each year. We can see these figures in those reports. I said they impaired the relations between the countries. How did they do that? The missionaries in Turkey sent the young men to America in cooperation with these organizations. There they were underwent armed training. Mavroyeni had written notes to the American Secretary State protesting this armed training. He had personally determined these training efforts. Then, those trained men were sent back to Turkey as militants. For instance, the men who attempted to assassinate Sultan Abdülhamit II had come from America. They were members of the Armenian terrorist organizations in America. For instance, a rich Armenian living in Arapkir was executed, again by the decision made by those American organizations. That is, they planned and executed these actions. Why were they sent to America then brought back to Turkey to execute these actions? It's a situation related to the system of nationality you've just mentioned. First of all, America was obliged to create a community to patronize in order to act as a patron of the Christians in Turkey. Therefore, Austria had the Catholics to use to interfere with Turkey's internal affairs. Russia had the Orthodox to use to interfere. But America did not yet have a means to interfere with. So, the missionaries created a Protestant Armenian nation in 1850s, if I'm not wrong by converting the Armenians into Protestantism. After they emigrated to America and came back a question of nationality of the Armenian citizens arouse between Turkey and America.

Köni: That's interesting.

Simsek:It is interesting. Armenians emigrated to America but they generally left the country without a permit. Missionaries financed them and sent them away without permits. As they did not have any permits they were still Ottoman citizens. They stayed in America as Ottoman citizens as long as they wanted then obtained American citizenship 2-3 months before they returned. That way they obtained the patronage of America. Then they came to Turkey and participated in various action. For instance, a group of 200 people was landed in Lebanon. Then they were caught, taken to Mersin and imprisoned.

-That was one of the first crises.

Köni : -With America?

Simsek :Certainly, with America. Because the moment they were arrested they said they were American citizens. They say you can't try us. But there was no indication that they were removed from citizenship in the Ottoman records. So the Ottoman State demanded them to pay the accumulated unpaid taxes. Actually they deliberately stayed under the Ottoman citizenship in order not to harm their relatives in Turkey and they particularly obtained American citizenship before they returned to Turkey to obtain America's patronage. In fact, these people arrested in Lebanon were later released by the interference of the American ambassador and were tried at the consulate. Actually they were not tried but sent back with a note saying they were not involved in any crime. For instance, the Ottoman Empire tried to enlist Armenians when they returned claiming that they were still Ottoman citizens. America protested that as well. The details are quite long but they gave rise to repeated negotiations between 1896 and 1901 between the representatives of Turkish and American foreign offices because it aroused an unresolved nationality problem due to the mistranslation of an article of the treaty signed in 1830s. So these organizations made very good use of this defect and continuously sent militants to Turkey. They kept on sending militants to Anatolia even in 1915 via Bucharest. Some of the ones caught had confessed that they had come to Turkey just to take part in the actions. I have told about these events in a paper I submitted in Elazig titled The Role of Armenian Diaspora in Turkish-American Relations but here we don't have enough time for details and specific examples. Actually, Armenians made good use of the defect in laws and provided militants for the Armenian organizations in Turkey namely the Hunchak, Dashnak and Ramgavar which was founded after 1908. And the Protestant public in America gave them financial support via the churches.

Köni : Well, they couldn't realize their objectives for the future because the English and the Russians were involved as well. Another association was founded in England to support them as well. The man, who later had the so-called Blue Book written and who hired historians was leading them. Russians used Armenians intensely as they were Orthodox themselves. In fact, Russians played a great role in the Greek uprising in 1820 in the Balkans as they were Orthodox as well. Which way did these events develop into First the war came about, then the Lausanne Treaty. How was the issue considered in Lausanne?

Simsek :As you know, America declared war on Turkey in 1917. Then we became enemies. But the Armenians in America had completely organized before that and the most powerful organization founded in 1916 to support Armenians during the deportations was, as you know, the Armenian and Syrian Relief. It was founded by Morgenthau, America's ambassador in Istanbul. This organization had branches in various states of America. They raised the money and sent to Turkey. Therefore, this powerful organization of the deportation period had actually opened a representative office in Paris in 1919 with the objective of establishing an independent state for Armenians. They took their first powerful diplomatic steps against the Ottoman Empire there during the peace talks in Paris.

Köni : I'd like to ask a question here. Now that a committee was founded to support Syria and the Near East there was a large number of people who went to that particular region with the deportations made within the Ottoman Empire. There were these relief organizations and they were trying to establish a state. So 1,5 million people out of a population of 1,3 million which is 200 thousand more than the actual population did not die in the Ottoman Empire.

Simsek : That's a different issue, you've given me a great lead. The American Committee for Armenian and Assyrian Relief Organization had a branch to help the Armenians who were deported from Turkey through the Consulate of Aleppo. This branch was organized in Mersin, Aleppo and Dayr al- Zor. The number of Armenians they have actually helped is 486,000 according to reports dated February 1916. They say they dispense free soup to 486,000 people everyday. This is a very large number.

Köni : And the entire population all around Anatolia is 1,2 million.

Simsek : Even if it was more. We find the official figures a little low. We are inclined to accept the calculations made by researchers like Justin McCarthy using the latest demographic methods which show that there were about 1,6-1,7 million Armenians. So 486,000 people arrived at their destinations. I'd like to note that the total number of Armenians deported is around 430,000 according to the Ottoman records. So the number of people who left willingly or who escaped

Köni :Or who were already living there.

Simsek : Including those who were already there were 486,000. Again, the American Committee for Armenian and Assyrian Relief had another branch in Tbilisi. They said they were helping 350,000 Armenians who emigrated from Turkey. That's very interesting too. The so-called genocide is really imaginary. Us historians try not to use terms like that to be objective but the figures prove that it is imaginary. 350,000 and 486,000. In fact, they raised the number during the peace talks in Paris in 1919 and said there were 500,000 Armenians in the Caucasus region coming from Turkey referring to those who emigrated to different places. Again, we know that there were 50-70 thousand Armenians who emigrated to Iran.

There were another 50 thousand who went to Greece. There were Armenians who went to Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Rumania etc. Some went to Crimea as well. When you add them all up to make a very large number.

Köni : Then there were those in Istanbul.

Simsek :Those living in Istanbul were not exiled. It is said that the number of members of Armenian committees were 2,345. 2,345 people were arrested. More interestingly, they were not even sent to Aleppo. They were sent to Çank?ri and Aya? in Ankara . They were arrested and sent to the prison. In fact, Armenians in Western Anatolia were not exiled at all. One of our colleagues suggested a thesis saying that deportation is a kind of ethnic cleansing and asked why did we have to deport the Armenians in Çorlu if deportation were only applied to those in the war zone. However in Çorlu, only committee members were arrested. The others were distributed to the rural areas of Çorlu in order to be neutralized. So, exile to Anatolia is out of the question. There is a resolution to relocate them in suitable places in Çorlu. In fact, deportations were a successful operation. Missionaries say that too. They say that Turks managed to execute the deportations very successfully in such a short time. I have studied the American documents on the displacements and wrote a book on the issue. I think it is the Turkish side, who are hesitant on the issue and claim that the operation was not successful. This may sound a little assertive but the number of Armenians definitely determined to be killed are higher in Turkish documents than the number in America and British documents.

Köni : Maybe the Turks were included as well.

Simsek : Because Turks were better aware of the situation. For instance, if the convoy from Erzurum was ambushed and killed on the road to Erzincan our people knew it best but the consulates heard about it later. A greater part of the reports written by the consuls were related to the city there were not much information about the rural areas and the rest is hearsay. So they are trying to condemn us by information based on hearsay and that's why they cannot go to the European Court of Justice or we cannot reach an agreement on a commission to be founded by historians. If we approach the issue in a methodological way and by criticizing the resources of historical science it is not possible to talk about a massacre or genocide.

There are isolated massacres.

Köni :-Because it was the wartime.

Simsek : There is another interesting fact. These armed bands of Circassians, Kurds or Muslims were mostly made up of army deserters. They have slaughtered Muslims as well acting with the intention to rob them.

Köni :For the money.

Simsek : The Armenians took their belongings along as they were exiled in convoys. Those bands robbed those convoys. If we return to the point where we began Armenian organizations made a great diplomatic attack in Paris and they later conveyed it to Lausanne. Although America was not a party in Lausanne and was only there as an observer they wanted to make a peace treaty a treaty of friendship and commerce with Turkey like the other countries that were at war with Turkey. This treaty was actually signed but it was not ratified by the American Senate just because of the Armenian organizations in America. In 1923, after the treaty was signed in Lausanne these organizations in America turned into committees to reject the Treaty of Lausanne. Another very interesting thing regarding the Armenian question is that a part of the missionary organizations like the Committee for Armenian and Assyrian Relief which later assumed the title the Near East Relief later turned into an organization titled The American Committee Opposed to the Lausanne Treaty demanding the ratification of the signing the Treaty of Lausanne. A war, if I may, had taken place among these organizations. They have given us important documents regarding the Armenian question. This is how. The Protestant Church and those parties to the Treaty of Lausanne which thought that it was most necessary to establish friendly relations with Turkey for the continuation of the missionary organizations in Turkey later said that the claims they made about Armenian genocide in 1915 Armenians being killed in Turkey just because they were Christians deportations were a very bad operation were exaggerated a bit. They said those claims were only propaganda and that they had to exaggerate the figures end the incidents to be able to raise more money from the America public and they published various articles in newspapers and magazines on the issue. Unfortunately, those articles are not yet used by historians in Turkey. It is a kind of material that should be used because the person who claimed that 2,000 people were killed in Erzurum in 1915 wrote another article in the same newspaper saying that only 200 people were killed and that he had exaggerated the number a little. In fact, extremist articles were also published in those newspapers praising Mustafa Kemal Pasha or saying that there were no more harems left in Turkey that Turkish people had given up polygamy and that the number of mistresses was higher in America. I'm trying to collect those articles in order to understand how real were the reports of the missionaries. These occur as secondary information but they are very useful for us.

Köni :So it's some kind of propaganda for religious warfare. There is a famous professor at the Princeton University. Professor who says they used to collect money at the church for Armenians even in the 50s and the 60s. So when they make collecting money a habit they may have exaggerated the number of the dead to get more. The same practice was later used by another ethnical lobby within the systematic of the Holocaust to raise funds.

Simsek :Certainly, as you know, our imams use the same method. They talk about negative things when they collect money at the mosque. It is a general practice. But I think, the important part for us is that unfortunately, the Armenians in America have presented the tension between Turkish and Armenian peoples in Turkey and the deportations made due to the war as a conflict between Muslims and Christians to the American public. However, there Greeks in Turkey during that period and no one asked why they were not exiled. If it was a conflict between Muslims and Christians there were a larger number of Greeks in Anatolia.

Köni :There were Bulgarians as well.

Simsek :That's right. They could have been exiled too. This question was never asked. So a hoodwink operation was executed by Armenian organizations in America for the America public and I think it has been very successful indeed because, while everybody became friends with Turkey in 1923 and forgot about the past America could only send the Treaty of Lausanne to the Congress for ratification four years later, in 1927 and yet the majority did not understand. Although there were 50 votes in favor of the Treaty it wasn't ratified because they couldn't reach an adequate majority. The American President had to establish relations with Turkey as if the Treaty was ratified using his own initiative. It's interesting that he couldn't overcome the Armenian lobbies.


Köni : There is another structure within America. Christian communities in conflict with one another had escaped there. Therefore, America is a milieu where all the Christian orders that escaped from Europe came and settled. It is a country very suitable for this kind of propaganda. And we are still paying the price for it. There are still powerful orders in America. Their leader commands and 30 or 100 people commit suicide. This interesting structure reflects there as well.

Simsek :This is a very good assessment. The apartheid or discrimination of those days in America was so deep that they automatically thought that there could have been such a discrimination in Turkey as well. However, Anatolia is a territory that have managed to make different ethnic and religious groups live together in peace throughout history. That is out of the question for America. They couldn't even grasp the first thing about the harmony in Turkey. That is my opinion. They couldn't even grasp the first thing about it.

Köni : Thank you very much Professor. Our brief half hour is over.

Dear viewers, we talked with Prof. Kemal Simsek about the formation of the Armenian lobby in America and their propaganda tactics. The Professor has written books on the issue based on research he personally made in the actual scene.

As you can see, the Turkish public has approached the issue from a scientific angle and proved to be an open society.

Have a nice day.


The Historical Background of the Armenian Question English Text of the 'Konusa Konusa' Program between Prof. Hasan Köni and Prof. Kemal Simsek at TRT-INT April 2005