Orhan Tung's article "There Was No Armenian Genocide" published October 23, 2007 by NewStatesman has received over 80 defamatory and racist comments regarding Turks and/or Turkey. Please also make sure your voices are heard and leave a comment in response.
http://www.newstatesman.com/200710230001
'There Was No Armenian Genocide' Orhan Tung 23 October 2007
The Turkish Embassy's Orhan Tung responds to the Armenian ambassador on the question of the 1915 genocide . .
Contrary to the Armenian allegations, in fact, there is no consensus among the historians and legal experts to qualify the events of 1915 as “genocide”.
There is a legitimate historical controversy concerning the interpretation of the events in question and most of the scholars who have propounded a contra genocide viewpoint are of the highest calibre and repute, including Bernard Lewis, Stanford Shaw, David Fromkin, Justin McCarthy, Guenther Lewy, Norman Stone, Kamuran Gürün, Michael Gunter, Gilles Veinstein, Andrew Mango, Roderic Davidson, J.C. Hurwitz, William Batkay, Edward J. Erickson and Steven Katz.
This is by no means an exhaustive list. A good number of well-respected scholars recognize the deportation decision in 1915, taken under World War I conditions, as a security measure to stop the Armenians from co-operating with the foreign forces invading Anatolia.
On the legal aspect, the elements of the genocide crime are strictly defined and codified by the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Genocide, adopted by the General Assembly on 9 December 1948. However, Armenians, claiming that "the evidence is so overwhelming", so far have failed to submit even one credible evidence of genocide.
While the position of the British Government is clear on the issue - that the evidence is not sufficiently unequivocal to persuade us that these events should be categorised as genocide as defined by the 1948 UN Convention on Genocide - the attempt to present some British documents, particularly the infamous Blue Book, as they are confirming "genocide" is a typical example of the Armenian way of misleading the international community.
The following quotation from Arnold Toynbee, British historian and co-author of the Blue Book, which is claimed to "leave no doubt about what was taking place", clearly shows the extent of Armenian false propaganda and how they come up with fabricated evidence:
"…Yet at the very time when the agreement (Sykes-Picot Agreement) was being made, I was being employed by His Majesty’s Government in a ‘Blue Book’, which was duly published and distributed as war propaganda. The French Government made use of the Armenians in a different way. They promised to erect an autonomous Armenian state, under their aegis, in the Cilician part of their Anatolian Zone and the promise brought them several thousand Armenian volunteers, most of whom were enrolled in the Legion d’Orient and served for the rest of the War” (Toynbee, Arnold J., The Western Question in Greece and Turkey, Howard Fertig, Inc. Edition, New York, 1970).
Hovhannes Katchaznouni’s (The First Prime Minister of the independent Armenian Republic) remarks in his report entitled “Dashnagtzoutiun Has Nothing To Do Anymore” submitted to the 1923 Dashnagtzoutiun Party Convention, gives an idea about the truth:
“…Are we not capable of doing in the Soviet Armenia what we did in the Turkish Armenia, for tens of years? We certainly are. We might establish a base in the Iranian Qaradağ and send people and arms to the other side of Araxe, (just as we did in Salmas once). We might establish the necessary secret relations and armed “humbas” in the Sunik and Dereleghez mountains just as we did in the Sasun mountains and the Chataq stream (in eastern Turkey). We might provoke the peasants in some far off regions to rise and then we might expel the communists there or destroy them. Later we might create great commotion even in Yerevan and occupy a state building at least for a few hours just as we occupied the Ottoman Bank or we might explode any building. We could plan assassinations and execute them just as we killed the officials of the Tsar and the Sultan…; in the same way, just as we did to Sultan Abdülhamid, we could plant a bomb under Myasnikov’s or Lukashin’s feet. …when we created a great hubbub in Turkey, we thought we would attract the attention of the great powers to the Armenian cause and would force them to mediate for us, but now we know what such mediation is worth and do not need to repeat such endeavours…”
After the World War I, the Armenian allegations were investigated between 1919-1922 as part of a legal process against the Ottoman Officials. 144 high ranking officials were accused of “massacres” and deported for trial by Britain to the island of Malta. The information which led to the trial was mainly given by the local Armenians and the Armenian Patriarchate. While the deportees were interned on Malta, The British occupation forces in Istanbul, with absolute power and authority, looked everywhere to find evidence in order to incriminate the deportees. At the conclusion of the investigation, no evidence was found that could corroborate the Armenian claims.
Turkey is of the view that parliaments and other political institutions are not the appropriate forums to debate and pass judgments on disputed periods of history. Taking one-sided and biased decisions on this disputed period of the history can not be considered as a right and ethical approach. Also, such kind of issues should not be abused for the sake of the internal political concerns. Past events and controversial periods of history should be left to the historians. In order to shed light on such a disputed historical issue, the Turkish Government has opened all its archives, including military records to all researchers. On the other hand, Armenian state archives in Yerevan and archives in some third countries including the Dashnak Party archive in Boston are still being kept behind the closed doors.
In 2005, Turkey proposed to Armenia the establishment of a Joint History Commission, which will be composed of historians and experts from both sides and third parties in order to study the events of 1915 in their historical context and share the findings with the international public. The fact that this proposal is yet to receive a positive answer from the Armenian authorities, when considered together with their rejection to open all the relevant archives to the historians, gives a clear idea about their confidence in what they claim. On the contrary, Turkey has no reason to be afraid of its past and is ready to accept whatever the findings of this proposed commission will be.
It should be emphasized that Turkey has always been keen to normalize its relations with Armenia. In line with its vision towards Southern Caucasus, Turkey, recognised Armenia on 16 December 1991 and has produced a consistent policy of efforts to develop good-neighbourly relations with this country. Due to the difficult economic conditions it encountered after its independence, Turkey has extended humanitarian aid to Armenia. Turkey has also facilitated the transit of humanitarian aid to this country through its territory. Turkey supported Armenia’s integration with the regional organisations, international community and the western institutions, and invited Armenia to the Black Sea Economic Cooperation Organization as a founding state. Additionally, Turkey took a series of unilateral steps that would help creating a favourable climate in the region. In this regard, some of Turkey’s recent unilateral gestures towards Armenia are as follows:
Armenian citizens are welcome to visit Turkey through visas issued at the entry points valid for 30 days. In stark contrast, this is not the case for Turkish citizens who intend to visit Armenia. Thousands of Armenian citizens reside primarily for employment in Turkey.
Turkey opened two air corridors for facilitating the international flights, which amount in excess of hundred over-flights every month and Turkish and Armenian air charter companies operate between Istanbul and Yerevan on a regular basis, up to 4 times a week. Transit trade towards Armenia or from Armenia towards abroad, via Turkey is not subjected to any restriction or hindering. These unilateral steps clearly show Turkey’s will for the normalization of Turkish-Armenian relations.
However, these good-will gestures are not reciprocated by Armenia. Instead, Armenia, passed a new bill on 4 October 2006, which makes it impossible for any Armenian citizen, or third party in Armenia, to voice dissent about the “genocide”; refused to issue visa for the Turkish election observation team comprising eight academics, who were to be deployed at the Election Observation Mission (EOM) set up by the OSCE Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights (ODIHR) prior to the Armenian parliamentary elections scheduled for 12th May 2007; rejected the inclusion of a Turkish officer to the NATO/PfP team that would conduct a working visit on border security in Armenia in July 2007.
Finally, I want to draw your attention to the desperate plight of the people of Armenia, suffering from the dire economic conditions in the country which is self-isolated as a result of the intransigent attitude of the wealthy diaspora. I believe that the Armenians have become captive to their own lie of “genocide” and every single support to the baseless Armenian allegations from the third parties will further cut their connection with the truth and prevent their integration to the West.
Orhan TUNG, Press Counsellor, Turkish Embassy in London
193 comments from readers
Robert Powell
23 October 2007
So let me get this straight. The Armenian people, occupied by the oppressive Turkish empire deserved to be subjected to wholesale slaughter because they wanted to be free. Brilliantly argued! And so my boycott of Turkey continues.
eddy
23 October 2007
Turkey is not only denying the fact of Armenian Genocide, but its exporting its aggresiv denial policy to the wolrd
Excerpts from the rationale of the cross-party and unanimously adopted "Armenian Resolution" of the German Federal Parliament
(Source: Lower House of the German Parliament Printed Matter 15/5689, 15th Legislative Period 15.06.05)
andrew
23 October 2007
Your whole argument is because the armenians wanted their human rights and liberties; it is just for Turks to slaughter and try annihilate them!!!!
You are an absolute idiot and pathetic loser!!!
Your propaganda goes as far as the ass that spits it out!!
Turkey is a disgrace to humanity and its past must be dealt with and acknowledged!!
eddy
23 October 2007
JUSTICATION A GENOCIDE!
The malicious denial of the Turkish-instigated genocide of the Armenians and the continual demand for still more proof is a byproduct of the "glorious history" invented by Turkish bureaucrats for this "chosen people." This invented, glorious history declares all civilized people who ever existed within the perimeter of today's Turkey - no matter what their indigenous culture is or was - as proto-Turks. Armenians, of course, do not belong to this. The splendid history of Turkey, an artificial, eulogistic and ideological fabrication, continues to exclude the worst and darkest sides of Turkey's past - such as the systematic extermination of the Armenians.
GENMOCIDE REMAINS GENOCIDE
THIS THE THE MENTALITY OF POLITICANS IN TURKEY WHICH HAS TO CHANEGE NOT THE FACTS ABOUT THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE
eddy
23 October 2007
TURKEY IS GOOD IN SIMULATING AN AMNESIA.
THERFORE THE HISTORIANS CAN NOT HEAL TURKISH AMNESIA
POLITICANS SHOULD ACT.
Tarks
23 October 2007
The fact is that despite calls for the Armenians to produce the evidence necessary to support their claims of genocide, none has been forthcoming. It's quite simple to make these horrendous allegations when those making them are not called to account for them.
What of the tens of thousands of Turkish civilians murdered by the armed Armenian militia groups during WWI. Who grieves for them?
Mary
23 October 2007
The historians have already responded. 95% of them agree that there was an Armenian genocide. And, as long as Article 301 is in place, no Turk in Turkey can openly debate the events of 1915-1918. Any offer by the Turkish government for a "commission" while Article 301 is in place is pure hypocrisy.
vahe
23 October 2007
If Turkey is realy interested in the well being of armenians, how come they keep their border closed. One simple question to Mr. Tung, what happened to all the armenians who used to live in Eastern part of the Ottoman Empire?
newsnow
23 October 2007
When almost 2 million people of the same ethnic and religious minority group vanish due to starvation, deportation and mass-killings it becomes labeled as Genocide. The History can be re-written, but thankfully it cannot be easily forgotten. Some of the survivors of the Armenian Genocide, albeit old are still around, and others were kind enough to give interviews and have them video recorded before their demise – eyewitness accounts (with some Turkish sources too) are irrefutable. How would a U. S. citizen feel if suddenly Japan will declare that Pearl Harbor attack never really took place, and somehow Americans staged that entire mêlée for some for of vicious conspiratorial motive? Sounds silly, doesn’t it? Well, everyone comprehends those tragic events were indeed the first Genocide of the 20th Century – everyone does, even most Turks do, and it’s time to start calling things by their real name. Anyone who allows to be intimidated by Turkish government and their spineless cronies is a weak, shortsighted and possibly a corrupted individual.
Charles
23 October 2007
I have an old cutting from the Independent (18.03.89) in my files. It was written by William Dalrymple and describes the ongoing destruction of old Armenian churches by the Turkish state. It begins with the following statement -
'In early December 1986 Hilda Hulya Potuoglu was arrested by the Turkish Security Police and charged with "making propaganda with intent to destroy or weaken national feelings". The prosecutor of the Istanbul State Security deemed her offence as meriting severe punishment and asked for between a seven-and-a-half and a 15 year sentence.
Portuoglu's crime was to edit the Turkish edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica. In this was included a footnote which read as follows: "During the Crusades the mountainous regions of Cilicia were under the hegemony of the Armenian Cilician kingdom"...'
The article continues with descriptions of forbidden books (including the Times Atlas of World History), archaeological bans, ancient churches being dynamited, and so on.
Let us be clear that the Armenian genocide is NOT a matter for historians. It would seem that there are many people in Turkey today who have actively colluded in the cover-up of this monstrous crime. It should be made clear to Turkey that this is not acceptable.
Harry Istepanian
23 October 2007
Mr Tung, Elie Wiesel repeatedly called Turkey’s denial a double killing, as it strives to kill the memory of the event. The Internatnal Association of Genocide Scholars in the letter dated 05CT07 to Tom Lantos affirmed the following: "It is disingenuous of the government of Turkey to use the red herring of a “historians’ commission,” half of whose members would be appointed by the Turkish government, to “study” the facts of what occurred in 1915. As we have made clear in our Open Letters to Prime Minister Erdogan (6/13/05 and 6/12/06), the historical record on the Armenian Genocide is unambiguous. It is proven by foreign office records of the United States, France, Great Britain, Russia, and perhaps most importantly, of Turkey’s World War I allies, Germany and Austria-Hungary, as well as by the records of the Ottoman Courts-Martial of 1918-1920, and by decades of scholarship. A “commission of historians” would only serve the interests of Turkish genocide deniers.
The abundance of scholarly evidence led to the unanimous resolution of the International Association of Genocide Scholars that the Turkish massacres of over one million Armenians from 1915 to 1918 was a crime of genocide."
eddy
23 October 2007
To the independent historian, it is undisputed fact that Turkey systematically and cruelly liquidated a large part of the Armenian people during the First World War. The exterminating acts perpetrated by the Young Turkish government were in no way limited to the territory of Ottoman Turkey alone, but rather extended all the way to the northwest of Iran (which was briefly occupied by the Ottoman Turks) and only found their provisional end in the Caucasus. No intelligent, seriously-thinking person questions the fact of the systematic annihilation of the Armenians by Turkey. At the time it was happening, even Talaat Pasha – the then Turkish Secretary of Interior and one of those responsible – openly admitted it was going on to foreign diplomats. But even that which was freely admitted by those in charge at the time is now vehemently denied by the Turkish government of today. They even go so far as to claim the victims as the perpetrators, which in itself is a both a result and proof of Turkey's dangerous loss of memory.
eddy
23 October 2007
@TARKS.. let see what Turksish war allay (germany)thinks on Armenian genocide:
Excerpts from the rationale of the cross-party and unanimously adopted "Armenian Resolution" of the German Federal Parliament, which condoms the denial policy of Turkish government and asked Turkey to accept its history.
(Source: Lower House of the German Parliament Printed Matter 15/5689, 15th Legislative Period 15.06.05)
“…
Rationale
90 years ago, on April 24th, 1915, by order of the Young Turk movement steering the Ottoman Empire, the Armenian political and cultural elite were arrested, transported deeper inland and to a large extant put to death. For Armenians throughout the world, this date has become the Day of Remembrance for the expulsion and massacre of the Armenian subjects of the Ottoman Empire which had already begun towards the end of the 19th Century and, however, occurred to an even greater extant during the First World War.
At the start of the war the recruited Armenian soldiers of the Ottoman Army were combined into work battalions and, for the most part, murdered. As of spring 1915, the women, children and elderly were put on death marches through the Syrian Desert. Those among the expelled who did not die or get murdered while underway suffered this fate at the latest in the inhumane camps located the desert around Deir ez Zôr. Massacres were also carried out by special task forces set up specifically for this purpose.
High-ranking Turkish civil servants who voiced resistance to these procedures as well as criticism from the Ottoman Parliament were met by the Young Turk Regime with brutal rejection. Many areas from which the Christian Armenians were expelled were then resettled with Kurds or Muslim refugees of the Balkan Wars…
According to impartial calculations, over one million Armenians were victim to the deportation and mass murder. Numerous independent historians, parliaments and international organizations describe the expulsion and annihilation of the Armenians as genocide.
To date, the Republic of Turkey – the legal successors of the Ottoman Empire – still continues to deny the fact that these actions were systematic in nature and/or that the mass deaths during the resettlement marches and the massacres were committed intentionally by the Ottoman government…Turkish justification is that the Armenians used of force and armed resistance against Turks during the Turkish resettlement measures...
As a whole, the magnitude of the massacres and deportation that occurred in Turkey is still played down and largely denied. This attitude of Turkey is in direct contradiction to the idea of reconciliation which stands at the forefront of the European Union's community of values. Even today historians in Turkey are still not free to deal with the history of deportation and murder of Armenians; despite relaxation of the previously existing liability of punishable culpability, they are still subject to great pressure.
As the main military ally of the Ottoman Empire, the German Empire was likewise deeply involved in these events. From the outset, both the political and the military leadership of the German Empire were fully informed of the persecution and murder of the Armenians.
The files of the foreign office, which consist of reports from the German Ambassadors and Consuls to the Ottoman Empire, document the systematic implementation of the massacres...”
thetruth1001
23 October 2007
Tung is just another turkish fairytale, genocide denialist. His false article is evidence that he still believes in the master turkish race. He apparently has never heard of The International Association of Genocide Scholars. Or read a history book that wasn't sensored by the turkish government. He disregards and ignores the countless eyewitness. The volumes of archival material. And pretty much the concenses of most all historians. The historians he talks about, all get paid by turkish grants to create doubt specificaly concerning the Armenian Genocide. Outside of turkey and these hanful of "mercenary historians" noone doubts the validity of the Armenia Genocide.
Here in the U.S, there are thousands of pages written in our own national archives concerning the systematic extermination of the indiginious Armenian population living under ottoman rule. Henry Morganthau, the American Ambassador to turkey in 1915, devoted much of his diary to the Armenian genocide. In 1915 he communicated with the state department and wrote "Talaat made no effort to hide the fact that he intends to exterminate the whole Armenian Nation"
Last, tung talks of relocation because of security measures. He just wants us to believe they were bad movers because very few survived the moving process. Apparently children, young women and old people were a big security risk.
To the Newstatesman, when are you going to have David Irving write the next article that the holocaust didn't happen?
Greg21
23 October 2007
Turkey has not changed a bit from the time of the Ottoman Empire. The fact that Hrant Dink gets assassinated in broad daylight and gradually within a year, the process of amnesia sets in, is an example of that. Turkey will do itself a favour by recognizing the Armenian genocide. If Turkey has an air tight argument against the Armenian genocide why resort to threats? The archives in USA, Brittain, France and Germany not to mention manyn others clearly point the finger to Ottoman Turks for the genocide of Ottoman Armenians. The historians you mention have all been paid by Turkey to deny the truth. Turkey's denialist behaviour is being exposed to the world.
artsimon
23 October 2007
This Is the most ridiculous article I have read about what the Turks did to the Armenians… It was Genocide and most viable historians would agree who have done their homework that what the Turks did between 1915 – 1923 was actually an evil act of genocide and killing 1.5 million (starvation camps, rape, gas chambers, killing the males and rapping the women… the only way of survival was to denounce Christianity and become a Turk for the Ottoman empire to spare you… if that wasn’t Genocide than all the people who agree with the writer should be imprisoned along with the Turkish generals….Please do more reserach or stop taking bribes from the Turkish gov.
vakus
23 October 2007
Well, we all know that Turkey is a barbaric country, and it is high time to call it a rogue state, far beyond the civilisation. So no need to discuss here the denialist cannibal propaganda of the turkish so-called diplomat.
But what really matters and is frustrating, that our mass media, like newstatesman.com gives a chance to such a social outcasts like Orhan Tung to write these shameful "articles". What's wrong with u people?
beta
23 October 2007
With such ridiculous and mindless arguments coming from a representative of the Turkish government, I am horrified of the idea that Turkey is being considered for membership in the European Union.
hyeking
23 October 2007
How interesting that the Iranian President in his recent U.S. visit was "grilled" by the president of Columbia University regarding his alleged denial of the Holocaust. However, in this country, President Bush and his administration are aggressively attempting to block passage of a resolution that would identify the massacre of hundreds of thousands of Innocent Armenian civilians as "genocide" because the very same international bully (Turkey) that perpetrated this crime against humanity is now lobbying for the rest of the world to believe its propaganda. Thank you, Mr. Bush!!!
vatan
23 October 2007
I am glad this "Holocaust is a myth", Ahmedinnejad type article is published.It only proves the point, that for people like this writer factual documented history is irrelevant.What is relevant for them(The Deniers), is the paid interpretation and twisting of the history(by "scholars" paid by them) until it meets their ends.I wish the editors of website provide web space for at least short resume of "United States Official Records On The Armenian Genocide 1915-1917" from the Library of Congress.But i won't hold my breath.
Zane
23 October 2007
Shame on the New Statesman giving a racist genocide denier a pulpit from which to spew his poison. The Blue Book was meant to sway public opinion, in that sense it was "propoganda," but that does not mean that it included falsehoods. Lying wasn't necessary, actual reports of what the Turks were doing were sufficient to anger any person with a soul. Anyone wanting to know more about the subject should read Akcam's article "Anatomy of Denial." Interesting how the racist author failed to mention Article 301 in the so-called Republic of Turkey.
Gary
23 October 2007
So let me get this straight: Mr. Tung knows more about genocide than Raphael Lemkin, the Polish-Jewish legal scholar who coined the word "genocide" himself.
As described in Samantha Power's powerful book on genocide, "A Problem from Hell: America and the Age of Genocide", Lemkin invented the concept partly on the basis of the extermination of the Armenians in 1915.
Lemkin, who lost 49 members of his family during the Holocaust, said the following in an 1949 interview with CBS on the UN Convention on Genocide:
"I became interested in genocide because it happened to the Armenians; and after[wards] the Armenians got a very rough deal at the Versailles Conference because their criminals were guilty of genocide and were not punished."
The veracity of the Armenian genocide is not subject to debate; it’s settled history. What's in flux is the process of introspection by many Turks to re-learn their own history. And hopefully that will lead to recognition of the genocide by the Turkish state on day.
Kenneth Brendth
23 October 2007
Dude, what idiot gave you this job!?!?! You need to be fired for your insensitive, biased and inaccurate "journalism".
Robert Powell
23 October 2007
Yawn! The author works for the Turkish embassy as Press Counsellor whatever that is. It says so at the bottom of the article. He isn't pretending to be a journalist - he's writing a piece responding to the Armenian ambassador's article. Tung may be hopelessly wrong but no more than you Kenneth Brendth! What a bore!
achilles
23 October 2007
WOW — Orhan Tung you should go and check your DNA and roots, you are most likely an Armenian who was converted into a Turk decades ago. Shame on Turks you days of "Midnight Express" are not going away soon. If anyone has a doubt that Turkish government is currupt ask Billy Hayes.
acommentator
23 October 2007
Why is none of the above commentators willing to answer the open questions as a confident advocate would? Why not encourage evidence? Do they fear it will weaken their belief in the genocide?
The WW1 archives as well as newspaper accounts referred to, mostly of the victors, are evidence yes, but not entirely impartial by definition. All parties at the time had their own agendas and their own propaganda machines. That is why historians try to apply rigorous standards as much as feasible, and not just hearsay even if it is from many people repeating each others’ words for a hundred years.
It is too convenient to overlook the fact that Armenians took up arms against the Ottoman state of which they were citizens. It is too convenient to call the Ottoman state an oppressor, when in fact the Armenians as well as other minorities enjoyed their freedoms for the better part of 600 years. The Armenians sought national independence by taking up arms and using violent means when the Ottoman empire was crumbling, using what would now be called terrorism. That is called treason and was -and in some instances still is- punishable by death even in Europe and USA at the time. So there was an Ottoman backlash. Unlike other “genocide”s, the Turkish Ottoman citizens didn’t wake up one morning and say, “it is time for a final solution to these Armenians”. Unlike other “genocide”s, there was no long standing agenda to wipe out the Armenian race. Turks have first hand family accounts of brutal killings and raping by Armenians and Greeks during that time too. Had the Armenian militants had their way we could be talking about a Turkish genocide by Armenians now. When you take up arms, you play with your life.
That many Armenians died cruel deaths in the Ottoman backlash is regrettably true. That the Ottoman deportation decision was ill conceived and SHAMEFUL is very true. That the primary culprits in that decision were tried is conveniently overlooked. That the crime they committed should be never forgotten so as never to be repeated is all true.
To sum, a complete picture is missing several important aspects, none of which the above commentators address, but which history will forever demand of them and anyone else:
1. Where is the forensic evidence? Surely a million mass killings has to have left some physical evidence, more than the repeatedly used old photos in the media now and then?
2. Why does Armenia and the diaspora fear opening up their archives? How can this "only" serve genocide denial? Even if it were to support the notion that Armenian militia sparked it somehow, that would still not excuse the shameful deportations and deaths.
3. How healthy is it for a conscientious free speech based society to legislate history at all? Even when the subject is correct without the slightest shadow of a doubt, does not legislating beg the question of why political power needs to bear on that truth which should be self evident and well documented? We like to think the political systems of the free world can be trusted, but history strongly suggests this is not a guarantee. Just look at what lies are told to wage what wars. It is free media and free speech that will help remind the truths even when unpleasant so we do not repeat those mistakes. Suffering occasional lies is perhaps the price to pay for the greater truth.
Please consider, truth is not a one way street. Turk
achilles
23 October 2007
Hey Turk: do you remember this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL-8EIflocM
there is more than enough Forensic evidence everywhere, Mush, Van, Ani, Amasia, Syria, check the following vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d68GlxbVuE. To me you are just another "Turkish Gov. paid" commentator. Mushetsi-Armenian
ayekikan
23 October 2007
Montreal-A group among the world's foremost scholars and academics of genocide studies urged the U.S. Congress to recognize the Armenian Genocide through a petition signed and prepared at McGill University during the Global Conference on Genocide Prevention this past week-end.
"The 20th century has been described as the Century of Genocide. It opened in 1915 with the mass killing of almost 1.5 million Armenians by the Ottoman Empire," Payam Akhavan, S.J.D., chair of the symposium, noted in his opening remarks.
The petition, which asks members of the U.S. Congress to approve a vote for H. Res. 106, calling on the White House administration to recognize the genocide, was signed by Dr. Akhavan, Faculty of Law at McGill University, Professor Frank Chalk, Director of the Montreal Institute for Genocide and Human Rights Studies, Senator Roméo Dallaire, former commander of UN peacekeeping forces in Rwanda, Professor Yehuda Bauer, Holocaust historian and scholar at Yad Vashem and Hebrew University, Dr. Irwin Cotler M.P., Former Minister of Justice and Former Attorney-General of Canada, Dr. Gregory Stanton the President of Genocide Watch, and many others.
"The scholars' reaffirmation of the Armenian Genocide's historical reality and their commitment to justice once more show how Turkey's claims that 'history should be left to the historians' is a cheap political ruse," remarked Dr. Girair Basmadjian, president of the Armenian National Committee of Canada. "Everybody on that petition, as well as Turkey, knows that the true historians have already passed their verdict. We hope the U.S. Congress will now do the same, and thank the symposium's organizers and participants for their hard work," he concluded. "I cannot help but feel pride as a Canadian for the moral stance that the Canadian Senate, Parliament and especially the Government have taken in affirming and reaffirming the historical fact of the genocide."
thetruth1001
23 October 2007
Tung talks about the diaspora not caring for their country. The reason for the diaspora is because there was a Genocide you racist. Enjoyed freedom for 600 years???Read any history book lately on the sheer brutality of the oppressive ottomans???Spoken like one who still believes he is the master race. Nazi like. As far as the Armenain genocide, I guess turks need a video tape of Talaat saying his intentions otherwise most all historians, most all ambassador accounts, most all archival document including allies of turks such as Austria and Germany at the time of the Armenian Genocide means nothing to them. I believe the noose is tightening around the neck of the Armenian genocide perpetrators. Thats why tung and other baseless deniers babble on sheer nonesense. My dear turks this will not go away ever!
zoro1
23 October 2007
Armenians are the their own worst enemy! If the Ottoman Turks were so bad; why are so many still here; and why do they all continue to follow Christianity. The Ottomans never forced their religion on them. If the Armenians pulled the same stunt (taking arms to help invaders) against say the Serbs; they may have no voice today. Also, it's so sad that the Armenians always paint a picture where all Turks are bad and blood thirsty and they were just innocent law abiding citizens. The truth is the Russians with the help of the Armenians together killed over 1 million Turks; but who cares Turks are not humans (according to Armenians and the French). To all "onsided" Armenians and French: "Please stop all your nagging and complaining; look in a mirror before you sit on your High Horses!"
achilles
23 October 2007
Zoro Jan, we are not complaining or nagging, that's what wifes do (j/k). In my life time, I have only met one Turk—the captial T shows that I have respect 4 Turks—a girl to be exact, it happened by chance, I noticed her name was Turkish, and she noticed that I am Armenian by looking into my eyes. She was the nicest person I have met (this happened in USA at a retail store). As we talked about our nations, she says " I am really sorry for what happened to your people". You know what she was reffering, right?!?!
I am not saying that Armenians didn't kill Turks, we did, but no where near the amount the Turks killed.
We will never forget, this issue is embeded in our DNA, we will fight the Turkish denial day in, day out.
Mushetsi-Armenian
acommentator
23 October 2007
achilles:
Your second link is interesting and worthy of corroboration. That is the sort of documentary that could yield evidence that will serve well the Armenian genocide cause. It also helps that it is being presented by someone who is neither Armenian nor Turk.
The rest of your comments and the first link to Midnight Express may help you vent your hatred for Turks but it shows your purpose is not the noble truth but just Turk bashing and hatred. Nor am I in the employ of any govt. Your assumptions and attitude -which is even more evident in the coarse language preferred by so many Armenians in this and other forums- are not useful for your cause and make it harder for you and all Armenians as well as Turks to make progress.
Remember, hatred only begets hatred, and try not to be right for the wrong reasons.
achilles
23 October 2007
acommentator:
Thanks for the reply but wait a minute? What do you mean by coarse language and preferred by so many Armenians? Wow you got your facts wrong—why don't you go to any forum, specifically go to youtube.com and type in Armenian, choose any video and see how Turks are bashing Armenians. Now type in Turkish and choose any video, do you see any Armenian bashing on Turks? I am not bashing on Turks, I am Xercising my right to speak my mind, the very same right that the Turkish gov. will imprison you for. You are right on with "Hatered only begets hatered". I have no hatered in my heart, I only want the Turks to stop denying the Armenian Genocide—that day will soon come. I am not going to start what Turks did to the Greeks and Kipros.
Meshetsi Armenian
achilles
23 October 2007
Here is another interesting book about the Armenian Genocide: http://www.amazon.com/Knock-Door-Darkness-Armenian-Genocide/dp/0825305128
Mushetsi Armenian
thetruth1001
23 October 2007
The Armenians might use coarse language sometimes but the turks use coarse deeds like the coward who shot Hrant Dink in back. He coudn't even confront him. Now that coward is concidered a hero in turkey. Same thing happened to the 1.5 million unarmed Armenian men women and children.
achilles
23 October 2007
thetruth1001, exactly, RIP Hrant Dink, now they have imprisoned Hrant's son for kicking article 301 in the balls.
achilles
23 October 2007
Okay, I am out to get Pinkberry with tripple Pomegranate, my Armenian DNA needs it. If you do not know what Pinkberry is, check out this site: http://pinkberry.com/html/pbmain.php
Disclaimer: I know you do not need to see this message, but I thought since I am going to be here for a while, discussing our issue, I might as well let people here know where I am at in case you do not see me reply so quick.
Mushetsi Armenian
zoro1
23 October 2007
To all of the Armenian lobby group members above; why is that what you say is always correct; but anyone that doesn't agree with your views is automatically discredited?? You agree you killed thousands of Turks. See that's what unfortunately happens in war; one side eventually wins. Armenians take up arms with the Russians and kill 1 million Turks; then the Turks fight back. So, since Armenians lost the battle/ they are now looking to win the war 100 years later. They are looking for money and land with the help of the French government. Armenians don't want to talk about the genocide they recently committed on the Azeri Turks. The French don't want to talk about the genocide they committed in Algeria. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Next time you attack a nation of people you were living with; you better hope you have a big enough shoe on your foot. Turks are hated because they were suppossed to be wiped out longtime ago by the Greeks, Armenians, Russians, French, Austrailians, English...the list goes on. However, we are still here and have proved to be a strong nation with importance in the world. Sorry to disappoint; no matter what you accomplish on paper anywhere in the world, your dream of taking Turkish soil is just that, "a dream". Now take all your money and ego and apply it to better the communist nation of Armenia.
achilles
23 October 2007
Zoro Jan, I am out on a break, I will reply to your rebuttal very shortly.
Mushetsi Armenian
achilles
23 October 2007
Some rough calculations:
Armenian population: 10,000,000+- world wide
Turkish population: 70,000,000+- in Turkey
You out number us by: 60,000,000 people and yet we survived and will continue to survive.
All the other things you wrote is plain nonsense.
zoro1
23 October 2007
AchillesJan; or Mesrop;
See you miss calculated again; this seems to be a DNA flaw. World wide ; Turks are over 300,000 million.
Your comment; "All the other things you wrote is plain nonsense."
Here we go again, your views are correct and everybody else's thinking otherwise is plain Wrong!
War of any kind is wrong! That means people can't work things out in a human approach. Unfortunately, invaders, traitors, and terrorists alike only believe in a violent approach. This is where force needs to met with force when a country is defending its own citizens from slaughter.
We can all learn a lesson from any war if we want.
I don't wish for another Turk to die, nor do I wish for another Armenian to die over disputed facts of the past.
You will continue to believe what you want, we will do the same with our view. I hope someday we can all come together a make mends rather than to continue to push away from each other.
After all, we share many of the same things in life, especially the great food!
Peace to all of us; including you achilles
Socrates
23 October 2007
Mr Tung's view and that of the Turkish government needs to be considered against the backdrop of Turkey's long-standing denial of the Armenian Genocide.
In the eyes of the Turkish administration and the Turkish people themselves, the archives in possession of the rest of the world including the USA, France, the European Union, and some 23 other countries are all false, and their collective verdicts determining guilt on the Ottoman leaders are likewise wrong - whereas the archives of the Ottoman empire are held to be true.
In this sense it could be supposed that Mr Tung is right - the Ottoman archives that remain available for inspection would not be expected to contain any reference to a planned genocide, but at most would contain references to mass deportations of Armenians from their homes, to God knows where.
As Mr Henry Morgenthau the American Ambassador to Turkey in 1915 said:
" When the Turkish authorities gave the orders for these deportations, they were merely giving the death warrant to a whole race; they understood this well, and, in their conversations with me, they made no particular attempt to conceal the fact.
All through the spring and summer of 1915 the deportations took place. Of the larger cities, Constantinople, Smyrna, and Aleppo were spared; practically all other places where a single Armenian family lived now became the scenes of these unspeakable tragedies. Scarcely a single Armenian, whatever his education or wealth, or whatever the social class to which he belonged, was exempted from the order. In some villages placards were posted ordering the whole Armenian population to present itself in a public place at an appointed time-usually a day or two ahead, and in other places the town crier would go through the streets delivering the order vocally." http://tinyurl.com/ywnzrc
In the eyes of the Turkish administration, the American Ambassador was simply making all this up , to deceive not only the President of the USA but also the American people.
The Armenian Genocide is not a debating matter between Turkey and Armenia, nor even between Turkey and the rest of the world - it is a matter for Turkish people to debate amongst themselves.
TurkeyTheBrainwashedNarion
23 October 2007
This mentality is ONLY accepted in Turkey. Doesn't that tell you something? All the Armenians posting here, don't waste your time. These people are BEYOND brainwashed. If someone is determined to not see the truth, he will not. There is nothing you and I can do to change that. Turkish Nation is Brainwashed and that is the bottom line.
Socrates
23 October 2007
A Commentator asks:
“Armenians took up arms against the Ottoman state of which they were citizens”…and therefore the whole race had to be deported and massacred? -
Read what the American Ambassador to Turkey had to say about the so-called Armenian uprising: http://tinyurl.com/yvsddr It will shortly be published in Turkish.
“Where is the forensic evidence? Surely a million mass killings has to have left some physical evidence?” - The evidence is here:
“When the caravans first started, the individuals bore some resemblance to human beings; in a few hours, however, the dust of the road plastered their faces and clothes, the mud caked their lower members, and the slowly advancing mobs, frequently bent with fatigue and crazed by the brutality of their "protectors," resembled some new .and strange animal species. Yet for the better part of six months, from April to October, 1915, practically all the highways in Asia Minor were crowded with these unearthly bands of exiles. They could be seen winding in and out of every valley and climbing up the sides of nearly every mountain - moving on and on, they scarcely knew whither, except that every road led to death. Village after village and town after town was evacuated of its Armenian population, under the distressing circumstances already detailed. In these six months, as far as can be ascertained, about 1,200,000 people started on this journey to the Syrian desert.” – American Ambassador to Turkey 1915.
“Why does Armenia and the diaspora fear opening up their archives?” - All the archives relevant to the Armenian Genocide are in the public domain.
Now let me ask a question: Why do historians refer to Turkey’s Abdul Hamid as the ‘Red Sultan’? No, it has nothing to do with Little Red Riding Hood.
Do a Google search on ‘red sultan’
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=red+sultan
The ‘Red Sultan’ Abdul Hamid organised widespread massacres of Armenians across the Empire in the 1890’s before he was deposed by the Young Turks in 1908. “It was his state policy to solve the Armenian problem by murdering the entire race. The fear of England, France, Russia, and America, was the only thing that restrained him from accomplishing this task. His successors, Talaat and Enver, no longer fearing these nations, have more successfully carried out his programme.” – American Ambassador to Turkey 1915.
No doubt a commission of historians organized by the current Turkish administration would claim that the ‘Red Sultan’ should really be known as the ‘White Sultan’ - such were his good deeds towards the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire.
The Turkish government needs to pass a law against 'insulting intelligence' instead of worrying about insulting Turkishness, and drop their genocide denial campaign which nobody believes, and which only makes Turkey look like an Ostrich.
lianchik
24 October 2007
HEY TURKEY!!!
WHY DON'T YOU TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT THIS WEBSITE...MAYBE IT WIIL GIVE YOU A BETTER IDEA WHO MASACRED WHO
http://www.geocities.com/thegenocides/photos/photos1.htm
tkirac
24 October 2007
Turkish Government has always opted for civilized dialogue over malicious bickering. Turkish and non-Turkish historians have always been welcome to dig into historical documents to investigate real historical events. These have been mostly turned down and not acknowledged by "Diaspora Armenians."
The truth, based on existing impartial documents, is that the events at the turn of the century show a region in turmoil and colonial powers instigating religious and ethnic divisions in order to hasten the break up of a multi-religious and multi-culture based empire.
The preposterous accusation that a "genocide" occurred is against all historical evidence.
THAT IS WHAT IMPARTIAL HISTORY TELLS US!
Socrates
24 October 2007
"The truth, based on existing impartial documents".....
If the Turkish Government has even one 'impartial' document in their Ottoman achives which has been left to them by their predecessors, let those impartial documents be published on the internet for the world to see, instead of merely talking about them - otherwise Turkey should change its name from 'Turkey' to 'Talkey'.
In the eyes of the Turkish government nothing except what they hold to be true can be regarded as 'impartial'.
All the documents held by Governments around the world that provide clear and unequivocal evidence of a genocide, and all accounts handed down by so-called 'genocide survivors' are false, or merely propaganda.
Only the Turkish government is right - all the other Governments including the German government that have passed their own verdicts on the genocide are wrong.
Mr Orhan Tung at the Turkish Embassy would no doubt also dismiss the following German recognition of the Armenian Genocide as 'impartial' and false:
Excerpts from the unanimously adopted "Armenian Resolution" of the German Federal Parliament, which condemns the denial policy of the Turkish government and asks Turkey to accept its history.
(Source: Lower House of the German Parliament Printed Matter 15/5689, 15th Legislative Period 15.06.05) :
"As the main military ally of the Ottoman Empire, the German Empire was likewise deeply involved in these events. From the outset, both the political and the military leadership of the German Empire were fully informed of the persecution and murder of the Armenians. The files of our foreign office, which consist of reports from the German Ambassadors and Consuls to the Ottoman Empire, document the systematic implementation of the massacres...”
Socrates
24 October 2007
Mr Orhan Tung and the Turkish Government wishes to provoke an historical debate on the Armenian Genocide using a committee of historians, but then dismisses outright the works of Viscount Bryce and the historian Mr Tonybee because it does not agree with the Turkish Government's perception of the truth.
Mr Orhan in his article presents a quotation which actually confims the fact of the Armenian Genocide, rather than negates it.
"…Yet at the very time when the agreement (Sykes-Picot Agreement) was being made, I was being employed by His Majesty’s Government in a ‘Blue Book’, which was duly published and distributed as war propaganda. The French Government made use of the Armenians in a different way....
What does it matter if the British and French governments at the time both seized on the 'Armenian Atrocities' as an opportunity to push their agendas under the Sykes-Picot Agreement?
The agreement was concerned with the Allies intention to carve up the Ottoman Empire after the War.
Mr Ohan Tung blames the war-time Allies for using the Armenian Atrocities as propaganda, whereas in fact he should be asking himself how the Allies came across this information in the first place?
msander
24 October 2007
You all seem to forget the fact that armenians lived peacefully for centuries in the Ottoman Empire and they were given the highest posts at the government.
Unfortunately, armenians sided with Russians and Allied Governments during the WWI and started killing Turks hoping to create an Armenian State in the eastern provinces of Turkey although as all historians agree, they never had majority in any Turkish city or town in any area.
Ottomans who were fighting in so many fronts,
had no other choice but deport Armenians who were uprising against their goverment.
You can see these facts in the letter Armenian Prime minister himself wrote in the begginning of the century.
Only the Armenians themselves and their western allies were responsible for what happened to them.
25liveGM
24 October 2007
How come these educated guys could believe the
1,500,000 died? First of all, God must have created at
least 1,500,000 Armenians in Ottoman Empire to make
this true. Official Ottoman censuses clearly documents
that the Armenian Population of the Empire was less
than 1.2 million! Then where are these Armenians in
America and France come from if we killed whole
nation! Or
Where is extra 300,000 coming from?
You guys amazed me! So you say Ottomans were very
systematic, right? If we were be that systematic and
strong, there would be no way we would lose the war.(
WW I ).
Take a look from this side: If you are a nation losing
your power since
1689, gets weaker and weaker, and finally at the 20th
century, all the states under your empire weren't
under your control, plus you fight with RUSSIA,
FRANCE, ENGLAND,GREEKS,ARABS, AUSTRALIA, NEW ZEALAND
AND OTHERS... Even
if you would like to kill 1/3 of that fabrication
number (500,000), you cannot succeed that many.(plus
consider that you do not have enough weapons, you
fight with Italians, French, British, Russians,
Greeks, Australians)
The 1,500,000 killed is a gross fabrication by the
Armenian Diaspora.
In 1915 many hundreds of thousands of Armenian
civilians were deported to the deserts of Syria and
Iraq. They were more than likely to die on the journey
from starvation, exhaustion and attacks by robbers or
irregular fighters.
And now, as being Turkish, why do I have to accept the
thing that has not been occurred?? Deporting people is
genocide, since when? You betray your country,
cooperate with enemy, dress French army clothes and
Russian army clothes and fight against your own
empire, then what should I do? Let myself to be killed
by you…Since when, deporting is called genocide? If my
country was so poor at that time, and you died during
the deportation and we could not bring you the first
aid, which you should have thought before cooperating
with Russians and French against Ottomans! To commit
genocide, you must be as strong as Germany and France,
or UK! Again at that time, it was the weakest, weakest
time of the Ottoman Empire, that is why all the states
already separated or wanted to separate and most
Armenians shot us from our back.
Armenians, or the lie believers, whatever you do,
there is no way we accept for the things that we or
our grandfathers did not do!! YOU CAN NOT CHANGE THE
FACTS!!
Socrates
24 October 2007
MSander states:
"You all seem to forget the fact that armenians lived peacefully for centuries in the Ottoman Empire and they were given the highest posts at the government. "
History tells us that Turkey's Sultan Abdul Hamid - 'The Red Sultan' - took care of the Armenians in 1896 very well.
The successful Armenian deportations carried out by the Ottoman Turkish government was copied by Hitler and led to exactly the same results for the jews.
Armenians were burnt alive in churches, whereas the Germans of course refined the process and built special ovens for the same purpose.
The German government has acknowledged its past, and is now at the Centre of the EU.
Turkey hasn't acknowledged its past, and will never be accepted by any country until it does.
"Then where do these Armenians in
America and France come from if we killed the whole
nation? How come these educated guys could believe that 1,500,000 died? First of all, God must have created at least 1,500,000 Armenians in Ottoman Empire to make this true. Official Ottoman censuses clearly documents that the Armenian population of the Empire was less than 1.2 million! "
And what does the 'official' Ottoman census say about the number of Armenians left in 1916?
I guess the Turkish Government will soon be asking for a 'Committee of Mathematicians' as well as a 'Committee of Historians' to debate the matter, and if the sums don't add up then there could not have been a genocide.
beta
24 October 2007
It's interesting how Genocide deniers can come up with so many versions of history....any version is good enough...even if it''s completely illogical.
It didn't happen....because there are some Armenians that survived (as if the definition of genocide includes absense of survival for the victims). It didn't happen...because Turks died during WWI..(as if these two are mutually exclusive events) ...the best one that I have read ..and this is from a booklet by the Foreign Ministry of Turkey.....even if the Armenian genocide did happen...it was less than 1.5million..and they deserved it because they were helping the Russians during WWI.
Can you imagine how ridiculous you sound when you bring up this arguments against a historic fact? it's like saying..the jews did not suffer under the Holocaust because there are millions of Jews around the world...and Germans died during the war too..and Jews were collaborating with the enemy.
I am amazed how even the Turks who claim to be logical are blinded by their hysteric reaction. They are only interested in the end conclusion...denial. It reminds me with the arguments that the Iranian president made with respect to the Holocaust. He suggested further research on the Holocaust too.
joe
24 October 2007
I think mr. Tung your observations are obviously dumbfounded, your argument is weak with no concrete evidence. I think you forgot that Armenians had been massacred twice before the Genocide of 1915, what will your argument be then. I think this argument armenians fought with the Russian side to combat Turkish power is a weak argument like your article. Read your history books. In 1891 and 1911, there were two genocides preceeding the 1915 genocide. I want to know what your argument would be then. You should realize the power of words and to use them carefully as such you are criminal and hypocrite for writing as disgusting article as this one.
Socrates
24 October 2007
Mr Orhan Tung and the Turkish government appear to have a short memory:
According to Mr Tung:
" After the World War I, the Armenian allegations were investigated between 1919-1922 as part of a legal process against the Ottoman Officials. 144 high ranking officials were accused of “massacres” and deported for trial by Britain to the island of Malta."
Mr Tung omits to mention that the leaders of the CUP were also tried in absentia by a Turkish military tribunal, found guilty of "pre-meditated mass murder", and sentenced to death.
"Pre-meditated mass murder" = Genocide.
The Committee of Union and Progress also killed their own fellow Turks to gain power.
http://tinyurl.com/34q4pb
They assassinated Nazim Pasha and his successor Mahmud Sevket Pasha in order to gain power.
Yet the present Turkish government continues to express surprise that such a gang of murderers could have been responsible for putting an irradicable stain on Turkish history.
That stain has been made even more revolting in the eyes of the world by the Turkish government's campaign of denial.
Reconciliation can only take place if there is a reconciliation with the truth.
TurkeyTheBrainwashedNarion
24 October 2007
There were 2 million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire before WWI, today there is what 40-50 thousand (the exact number is unknown-poor people are too afraid to identify themselves as Armenians). Can someone explain to me what happened if it wasn't genocide?? I said it before, I'll say it again.. This mentality is only present in Turkey and it will not last long.
photoline
24 October 2007
Why are the Armenian archives closed? and why are the Armenians afraid of a joint study? If in fact the label is Genocide - will this not come out in the joint study?
My grandfather and all of his relatives were killed by Armenian in Sarikamis (close to Kars) in 1913. This is a great way to seek freedom from the Ottomans right? By killing Turks?
If I was interested in substantiating my claims - I woul dbe more than willing to join any joint study - wha do you have to loose? If you're saying it is Genocide, at least this is your chance to have the opposing party in the same room looking at all evidence. It is simply not believable to say 90% of historians are saying it is Genocide - but I will keep my historical archives closed and the rest of the people will have to accept what I say because I have political power - this is bull.
Pencils
24 October 2007
What an obscene article! I don't know why the New Statesman published this, but maybe it's a good thing to see the depths to which the Turkish propagandists can sink. What a list of ' reputable historians'! 'Mercenary historians' is right: these hacks can always be depended on to come up with a justification for any right-wing cause. Just yesterday I saw Norman Stone on the telly, making the case for a Turkish invasion of Kurdish Northern Iraq. I understand he lives in Turkey now, paid by the Turkish government seemingly. What a loathsome oddball he is! Thatcher's 'favourite historian' - I remember him writing regularly in the Sunday Times in the 80s, justifying America's atrocities in Central America, and occasionally advocating the South American fascist juntas as a preferred model for the UK's future. He has the look about him of someone who was hopelessly damaged by an unhappy childhood ( bullying at school?) and just wants to hurt people, in his small way. I don't know if he's made any pronouncements yet on all the Kurds killed in Turkey in the 90s, villages destroyed etc, but I'm sure he'll tell us that never happened, unless the Kurds make him a better offer - his own oil-well.
Who would have thought that the Bush junta could do something decent - recognising the Armenian genocide? But I'm sure it was from the worst of motives - we'll see!
baristarim
24 October 2007
That a massacre occured in not what is being debated. There is a genuine academic debate by serious historians, anthropologists and Middle East experts within the international community as to whether or not what happened constitutes a genocide. History is messy and replete with moral ambiguity.
I doubt that you or the US Congress are qualified to make a judgement on this case. I don't claim to be an expert either, but I am not the one making the assumption that the atrocities - while tragic - constituted a genocide. Sentiment is one thing, but in fact historical accuracy matters here.
The Turks and the Turkish government have acknowledged countless times that there were widespread massacres of the peoples of Eastern Anatolia - Christians and Muslims alike.
I don't disagree that Turkey could be more transparent on this issue, but their reticence neither undermines nor proves the arguments of those who debate this issue.
The US Congress is not a body that enjoys the respect of the international community or has the capacity to objectively parse the evidence and override the respected and studied opinions on a vigorous debate that has been going on for almost a century.
This is politics pure and simple. Frankly, I am surprised that the Armenian community has agreed to prostitute their supposedly sacred issue, so that a castrated Democratic congress can score political points against George W Bush. It certainly undermines the legitimacy of the claims they espouse to achieve.
The US Armenian ethnic community is small, regionally concentrated and excercises disproportional political influence. The selfish and narrow interests of this tiny community now threaten to further undermine our national interests in a perilous region.
The House Democrats, who have been an utter failure in their ability to curtail the Iraq war, the signature issue of the 2006 campaign, are resorting to cheap back door politics by cynically forcing this resolution.
Those who argue that Democrats lack the capacity to lead during times of foreign crises need no further evidence than this frivolity.
The resolution states that 'the failure of the domestic and international authorities to punish those responsible for the Armenian genocide is a reason why similar genocides have recurred and may recur in the future.'
This is complete nonsense. Surely you are not claiming that the reason the US delayed its involvement in the Bosnian, Rawandan and Sudanese crises is because the US has not yet acknowledged that Armenian deaths constitute a genocide?
How utterly ridiculous.
baristarim
24 October 2007
I don't care how many Armenians try to push with all their might that Turks are cold-blooded genocidal butchers.
NO. 1:
Henry Morgenthau's memoirs (something so often used by those who back the genocide theory) itself claims that;
"The Armenians in Istanbul, Izmir and Aleppo were not harmed."
For ANY NEUTRAL OBSERVER who wanted to see "what the fuss was all about", this should raise a red flag:
These were the three biggest cities in the Empire, Istanbul being the capital. So the Ottomans were committing genocide, but somehow didn't touch the Armenians (most probably the most prosperous among them) who lived right under their nose? WTF? That would be like the Nazis not touching any Jews who lived in Berlin, Warsaw and Frankfurt!!!
WHY?
REMEMBER: (A) massacre(s) becomes genocide when there is a clear indication to kill, and actual killing, of a group for reasons of their ETHNICITY.
As a Turk, I find it extremely weird that Ottomans wouldn't touch any Armenians right under their nose if they were comitting genocide between 1915-17.
Everyone knows that many Armenians died. But it was war and many ethnic groups were killing each other in a moment of history where "might was right".
It is tragic, but there has never been a SOUNDPROOF case for genocide.
AS A TURK, I GIVE YOU MY WORD THAT I WILL BELIEVE IT WAS GENOCIDE WHEN YOU CAN SHOW ME OTTOMAN GOVERNMENT ALSO DEPORTED AND KILLED ARMENIANS IN LARGE SCALE FROM ISTANBUL, IZMIR AND ALEPPO BETWEEN 1915-1917.
In fact, the Armenian population in the very capital, Istanbul, was unchanged between 1914 and 1918.
But until that day, NO WAY JOSE. I will always believe that it was a tragedy and will feel sorry for all the Armenians, Muslims, Turks, Kurds, Azeris, Greeks etc who died during the war - but no genocide.
zhanna
24 October 2007
this is so unbelieveable, so outrageous that even today the turks have the guts to deny the genocide when the whole world is screaming for justice. It is time for the turkish gov't and all the turks to be as humans, and to admit that they have wronged and murdered a whole nation, they have killed our innocence. But I want the turks to remember one things, every dog has its day and your day too should come as JUSTICE ALWAYS PREVAILS!
MAY GOD BLESS MY FELLOW ARMENIANS!
baristarim
25 October 2007
Moreover, there is a huge lack of empirical data to prove the case for genocide.
Someone above claimed that "those who didn't believe the genocide theory would like to see a recording of Talat Pasha giving the order, in unambigious terms, to exterminate the Armenian race".
THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT!!!
How can you expect any honest person with any amount of integriy not to see such proof before accusing someone one of comitting genocide?
As a jurist, I know what it means when people say "beyond a reasonable doubt" used in criminal proceedings instead of "more likely than not" used in civil cases.
That exists for a reason: For someone making the assumption (and the accusation) that a state committed genocide (a criminal act), they need to bring up the proof neccessary to establish so BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT, because the risk of a mistaken criminal verdict, and its ramifications, is too great.
To expect people to believe a criminal accusation with any less is unreasonable. I am not going to believe that it was so until I see some HARD-AS-A-ROCK, SOUNDPROOF and DEFINITIVE proof and empiricial data shoved right under my nose.
YES, something such as a recorded audio tape of Talat Pasha giving to the order or an authenticity-proven imperial order comporting the Imperial Seal of the Ottoman Sultan himself giving the UNAMBIGIOUS order to exterminate the Armenian race.
No-one should expect any less. We know that it was a tragedy, but genocide is a different matter.
The head of an Armenian-American lobby group said recently that "we don't need to prove the genocide historically since we proved it politically".
See?
The reason why Armenians are so active in pursuing this is the fact that, contrary to what they claim, they know that the empirical data available doesn't allow for a SOUNDPROOF case, BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT, that it was a genocide. There has never been such a verdict by an international court. The fact that some might have been tried for massacres is not the same thing: a massacre is not a genocide. We know that there were massacres of all involved during the war.
zhanna
25 October 2007
Unbelievable - turks are what they were a century ago - they will truly never change - the same barbaric race, that only thinks and dreams of drinking the blood of our innocence. But as they say, every dog has its day!
God Bless my fellow Armenians! We must never forget!
MontrealTurk
25 October 2007
Have no doubt that the Ottoman archives speak the truth. They counted the people for taxation purposes. If anything they would count more heads; Ottoman census of 1914 says 1.3 million Armenians lived in Anatolia in 1914.
The head of the Armenian delegation Boghos Nubar said “150,000 volunteered in the Russian Army, 45,000 in the French Army, and 30,000 elsewhere fought on the side of the Allies”. Altogether, this makes 225,000 fighters. Assume each had a mom, dad and 3 siblings; total is: 6*225,000=1.35 million. This leaves no innocent Armenians. But only 700,000 – 800,000 were deported. Patriarch’s records in 1920 claim 645,000 returned back. How can more than existing number of people disappear? Please somebody; give me an account of this 1.5 million innocent Armenians claimed to be killed by Turks.
Let’s assume for a moment that Armenians do not die of natural causes, hundreds of thousands must have died of hunger and disease like millions of the Muslims did. War does that you know. According to Boghos Nubar, after WW1 the number of unaccounted Armenians was below 300,000. In the 60's exaggerated billboards in California stated 600,000. When the Turks ignored them the number went up to 1.5 million. Some even speak of 2 -3 million. Do the Armenian dead multiply?
baristarim
25 October 2007
"Unbelievable - turks are what they were a century ago - they will truly never change - the same barbaric race, that only thinks and dreams of drinking the blood of our innocence" zhanna
Oh boo-hoo-hoo.. It is obvious who is doing the racism here.
Not to mention the real lame soap-opera rhetoric: "Drinking the blood of our innocence"?
WTF?????
MontrealTurk
25 October 2007
Has anyone looked up the UN definition of genocide? It clearly mentions “as such” - meaning, the group must be acted against for being a member of a certain group, not because they go to war. For instance the Jewish doctors were not allowed to operate on Germans, Jewish lawyers could not represent Aryan Germans. In Anatolia, the reverse was true. The Armenians put down Turks. They called them dogs, etc in folk songs, poems, and literature. They still do. They need to be cured of this social disease to hate anything and every thing Turkish.
War is ugly. People die. No matter how sad, not every death is genocide. Warring sides were removed out of the UN definition upon Raphael Lemkin's recommendation. Armenians were obviously at war with the Turks. As sad as it is, civilian deaths caused by Dashnaks’ declaration of war is not genocide. The Dashnaks should face up to their mistake to rebel at the wrong time wrong place. They should be held accountable for the loss of many innocent Muslim and Armenian lives. Instead they are spreading one sided propaganda.
For example millions of Turks died from 1914-1923. May be we should call them genocide as well. Otherwise this would not be humanitarian but one sided, racist, anti-Turkish mentality which is definitely sick.
Raphael Lemkin was only 14 years old in 1915. He has never been to Anatolia. Any opinion he may have reached was based on hearsay. Opinion does not count as proof in the court of law.
The burden of proof lies in the Armenians and they fail to do so. Instead, they try to put the Turks on the defensive. How can one be a denialist without any proof of guilt?
MontrealTurk
25 October 2007
Brutal rape was applied to Turks while drawing them out of the Balkans. My great grandmothers family joked because they left her favorite meal on the stove. They droned on them unexpectantly. Suddenly, everyone got on their horses. Women rode towards Anatolia, men rode their horses in the opposite direction. They had no time to turn off the stove. They still have the title deeds to their 220 acre farm. They had been cultivating those lands for centuries. War is ugly!... Any war sounds like a genocide if the dead of only one side is counted. Oh sorry, it is genocide only if the losing side is Christian.
beta
25 October 2007
Gen. Mehmet Vehib, the celebrated Turkish army commander of the Third Army, wrote in 1919: "The massacre and destruction of the Armenians and the plunder and pillage of their goods were the results of decisions reached by the Central Committee (of Turkey's ruling party)."
So why the endless genocide denial by Vehib's successors ??? Why is it that the Turks have selective amnesia with regards to the Armenian Genocide???
I realise that admitting what your grandparents and great-grandparents did would be to acknowledge the most shameful act any people can commit, but it's the only thing to do if you claim to be ready to join the European Union.
MontrealTurk
25 October 2007
About Genocide Scholars, It seems they are judging a 19th century event with 21st century standards. Relocation and deportation were means of war tactics then. French used the same method on the Algerians 15 years after WW1. Americans used it during WW2 against their Japanese Americans - and they were not even rebels. There was only a suspicion of rebellion, just because Japan entered WW2.
MontrealTurk
25 October 2007
Vehib does not say the Armenians were not at war with the Turks at the time of their plunder and destruction of their material. War is ugly. People die at war. If your leaders draw you into war, then innocnet masses die. Look up Saddam, and million Irakis dead.
As a human Vehib feels sorry for the enemy. Not every death is genocide. Your grandparents were not cherry picking at the time.
MontrealTurk
25 October 2007
Armenians are evading legal court battles because they know they have no case? Why are they trying to silence the Turks with laws of denial? We all saw how aggressive they became just because PBS taped a video discussion somewhat balancing the subject. Istanbul Patriarchate, His Holiness Mesrob Mutafyan was not allowed to give a conference in Washington DC. Oh, is there a law 301 in the USA? No one can mention the word Turk in Armenia without a negative attached to it. These genocide scholars perform only in one sided conferences. They shy away from Turkish academicians like measles. The only reason they wish to form some resemblance with the Jewish case is for embezzling hefty reparations from Turkey.
There is no proof of Armenian case. There cannot be denial of a non-existent/unproven event. If a law is passed to silence the Turks, so much easier it will be to spread one sided stories. There are scenarios, and there are propagandists trying to theorize to reach their end goal. There is only belief among the brainwashed circles. Just reading the posts here, I see no facts presented to prove that what happened could be other than warring parties killing each other.
MontrealTurk
25 October 2007
How fair is it to personally attack a scientist who disagrees with you? Many have posted insults and attacked the media for publishing this article. Why don’t you for a change try to disprove the facts stated here.
You guys wish to hurry off with this law, so that you can silence the Turkish side.
beta
25 October 2007
There is no excuse for genocide...the Holocaust happened during a war, but you don't see Germans using it as an excuse. Genocide is not excusable...it's not excusable if it happened in the 19th century..it's not excusable in the 20th century and it's not excusable now in Darfur. Genocide is not excusable...period. Stop hiding your head in the sand!!
baristarim
25 October 2007
Did you know that the first head of the Turkish Language Association of the Turkish Republic, named in 1932 by Ataturk was an Armenian by the name of Agop Dilaçar?
Search it...
Yeah, those genocidal Turks, right?
So let me get this straight:
Ottoman Turks commit genocide against the Armenians in 1915, but by the time we reach 1932 there are so many Armenians left around (the ones in the biggest cities were never even touched) and the relations between the "genociders" and "genocidees" became suddenly so good that an ethnic Armenian came to head the Turkish LANGUAGE Association???
I never heard of an ethnic Turk heading the Armenian Language Association in Armenia - and judging by some of the comments coming from certain Armenians, I truly wonder which way the true racism goes...
baristarim
25 October 2007
"There is no excuse for genocide" beta
You are right - except I don't think that it was a genocide. Period
You cannot expect me to believe that it was so with a straight face when the Armenians in the three biggest cities of the Empire, right under the nose of the Ottoman soldiers and politicians were not even touched. What kind of a friggin' genocide is this???
In 1932, the first president of the Turkish Language Association was an ethnic Armenian, Agop Dilaçar. What kind of a friggin' genocide is this that Turks name an Armenian; but moreover, an Armenian ACCEPTS such a job having gone through a genocide?
There are holes in the genocide theory the size of the Ozone hole, whether you like it or not..
People died, but there is a clear line between anything that might have happened, however tragic, and a genocide my friend...
MontrealTurk
25 October 2007
You ought to refer to Christian media press with a grain of salt because here is what George M. Lamsa, a missionary well known for his research on Christianity had to say about the level of exaggeration of Armenian destruction in his book "The Secret of the Near East", The Ideal Press, Philadelphia (1923), pg. 133; "In some towns containing ten Armenian houses and thirty Turkish houses it was reported that 40,000 people were killed, about 10,000 women were taken to the harem and thousands of children left destitute; and the city university destroyed and the bishop killed. It is a well-known fact that even in the last war the native Christians, despite the Turkish cautions, armed themselves and fought on the side of the Allies. In these conflicts, they were not idle, but they were well supplied with artillery, machine guns and inflicted heavy losses on their enemies." Ambassador Morgenthau relied on his Armenian tarnslators for all information he sent to USA.
The Blue Book is full of Christian missionaries stories. The rest were taken directly form Ambassador Morgenthau, whose sources I mentioned above. Also, Arnold Toynbee admitted in his book later that Blue Book was written for war propaganda. If it was a reliable source, would the British government refuse calling it a geno?
The UN does not label it geno!...
Only, hand picked people who need a title like geno scholar swallow the Armenian claims hook line and sinker. Taner Akcam, someone who was jailed for his leftist anarchist activities in Turkey can be fooled into being a mouthpiece for Turkey's enemies.
beta
25 October 2007
The latest news is that the Ozone hole is shrinking...and hopefully soon the platform that Genocide deniers use to spew their hate. Stop hiding your head in the sand and join the 21st century.
MontrealTurk
25 October 2007
Jewish Holocaust took place during WW2. But they were not collaborating with the enemy. They did not pose a military threat to Germans. In Turkey, Muslims of Van were butchered by Armenians. Russian Army entered the city without any resistance. The Russian Tsar thanked the Armenians for their collaboration.
The Jews were forced to wear signs on their lapel. There was belittling of the Jews and the gypsies, etc. Armenians on the other hand were in the parliament. The Sultan's money was in the hand of the Armenians. His doctor was an Armenian. Actually, Armenians were richer than the Turks all over.
Another fact, the cencus bureu was headed by an Armenian. So, you cannot object to the 1.3 million figure. Also, an Armenian was in charge of the Ottoman Archive during war tribunals which were held following WW1. So, you cannot say the genocide evidence was washed away.
There never was an order to kill. There was an order to relocate - not even deportation. They ordered to relocate them within the Empire in a zone where they would not pose a threat to the warring Turkish army.
Armenians obviously knew there were no orders. Othervise why would they commit forgeries?
baristarim
25 October 2007
beta,
an Armenian commentator above had said that he and other like-minded Armenians were not going to go away with this..
Fair enough.. I am aware that many Armenians suffered.
However, know also that we are not going away either since we also know what we know (things like what I mentioned above) and that many Turks also suffered.
Instead of casting aside Turks as brainwashed zombies who need the intervention of the US Congress or the Armenian diaspora to bring them back to life, know that many Turks are extremely well-educated and world-aware, that Turkey is a huge country which is developing extremely fast, along with its huge middle-class.
The days when the Armenian diaspora could ride its horse the way it wished is over, and we are not going away either.
We are well aware of the story, the politics and history behind it, the past, present and future. We DO sympathize deeply with the suffering of Armenians as well as the suffering of everyone else during the war. But this 'genocide' matter is a different thing.
This issue only serves to address the identity issues of the Armenian diaspora. If you ever go to Armenia, you will see that most people there have already moved on. And an editorial in an Armenian newspaper recently was criticizing an official of the Dashnak party who had said something like "we want to keep the wounds of the genocide open for political reasons", by saying "every nation wants to close wounds at some point and move on".
Food for thought my friend... :)
MontrealTurk
25 October 2007
you know that you are a mouthful? I have no time to waste with shrewd word slingers. Show me some logical explanation at least, if you cannot turn up any evidence.
MontrealTurk
25 October 2007
Why not bring up the genocide perpetrated on the Azeri Turks by the Armenians in 1991? Let the US Congress recognize this fresh genocide. Oh no, the perpetrators are Christian, so it cannot be labeled as genocide. Only if the victims are Christian - better yet the first Christian State of the World!..
beta
25 October 2007
"..many Turks are extremely well-educated and world-aware, that Turkey is a huge country which is developing extremely fast.."
Then stop talking like Ahmadinejad and face your history the way most civilized nations are expected to.
MontrealTurk
25 October 2007
Armenians should face the facts and make peace with their history instead of repeating slogans taught at their Holy locations.
In 1900's Armenian Churches and schools had become weapons depots. Now, they are using media as weapon. They wish to deprive their opponents of columns to defend themselves. What happened to the frist amendment 'every man has the right to defend himself'?
Why not discuss freely in open debate like the Turks suggest if you believe you have a water tight case? Why pressure US legislators to legitimize unproven allegations? Oh big daddy please pin down my opponent on the ground so that I may beat him up as I wish.
baristarim
25 October 2007
"face your history the way most civilized nations are expected to"
Yeah, you should say that to Armenia who ethnically cleansed Nagorno-Karabagh from the Azeri Turks as recently as fifteen years ago, not by some defunct state centuries earlier.
I know, and you also very well know, that this whole Ahmedi brouhaha is just lame demagoguery and rhetoric, so get over it.
Or are we "drinking the blood of your innocence" as zhanna said earlier? :)))
Mike - Cardiff
25 October 2007
The denial of genocide is a constant festering of the wound.
Genocide denial should not be seen as an assault on the history of one particular group.
In the case of the Holocaust, it's denial repudiated reasoned discussion, the way the Holocaust, itself, engulfed all civilization.
Holocaust denial like anti-Semitism itself, was and sadly still is an attack on Jewish history and as such is an attack on the most basic values of a reasoned society.
So it is with the denial of the Armenian genocide
Mike - Cardiff
PS for those interested in reading contemporary documents recording those dreadful events - these may be found on www.rememberarmenia.co.uk
MontrealTurk
25 October 2007
Dear Mike-Cardiff: You are elevating Armenian allegations to the level of Jewish Holocaust as if it was proven in a serious court like the Nuremberg Trials. there cannot be denial of something unproven. Let alone any evidence, there is no logical explanation. There is only say-so of biased sources.
Also, it does not fit the UN Definition. Parroting of genocide allegations are pestering wound on the Turks heart. It is an attack on our national pride and as such is an attack on the most basic values of a reasoned society. Any war sounds like a genocide if the dead of only one side is counted.
therewasnogenocide
26 October 2007
Some of you are so brain washed that you can't even recognize the truth when you see it THERE WAS NO ARMENIAN GENOCIDE. Just look at the facts with a simple google search...there are thousands of pictures of armed Armenian soldiers with Russian guns! What were they planing to do with those guns? Go deer hunting?
Get real...lets get armed and establish our own state...yea right! What a cry baby these people are...it's their clergy that perpetuates this hatred by the way...if there was no genocide Armenian churches would be all broke!!!
aguylikeanyother
26 October 2007
The thing about history of war, is that it is most frequently written by the victors, and seasoned to leave a favorable taste in the mouths of the victorious. This is true of any historical account of any war.
Do you think this preposterous? Ask yourself what your exact thoughts were when you heard of the most recent, near global conflict. Boil it down, and I'm certain it will be along the lines of "Is this really nessecary?" War historians and or propagandists already have the answer explained for us, before we can come to our own conclusions, or find the questions that leaders fear when moving any nation to war with another. The answer on either side of any conflict has to stem from "we are right, we are in the right, and we have been right all along." How else can any person throw their support behind violent conflict? Do you truly believe that any and all soldiers are irrational, violent and blood-thirsty from birth? Trained to commit any act of attrocity unflinchingly, without remorse or after thought? Or that all people throw their support behind any and all decisions that a leader they have and will never likely meet, decides for them?
To gain the support of the people, leaders make it someones full time job to make sure that the people believe what is happening is the right thing to do. Or the only choice left. Wether the case is such, is not for me to say.
War is ugly and tragic, and is an occupation of violence, combat and death. Even the most decorated soldiers bear shame for deaths they have been party to. Even the leaders of nations need to be provoked to move their armies, and most often with a heavy heart and stained soul.
I am neither Turk or Armenian, but I know Turks and Armenians, and have heard of past conflicts from both sides. From all the tales of slaughter I have heard, I've been able to draw some observations that blanket both sides.
First, the genocide that both sides speak of is learned and not experienced. And what is learned is hatred. From a young age, this hatred is passed down, and will continue to be disseminated for many generations to come, and that forgiveness of past transgressions is a sign of weakness, shame, and a slight to every ancestor that fought, suffered or died from this conflict.
Secondly, both sides of this conflict want it to be over, nearly a century after it's end. Many people in both communities have lost family and loved ones arguing over who has the right to be more angry about it.
And finally, with no insult meant, the Ottoman empire is no more, and the Soviet Union has fallen. (both having touched these lands) What remains are two independant nations. Both with rich cultures of language, religion, food, dance, song, literature, tradition, architecture and above all else, fierce pride in who they are as a people. I hope that I can say this point about all the Armenians and Turks that have posted here.
And lastly, that everyone from that region hopes that in their lifetime, that they will be able to look into the eyes of their children and grandchildren, and tell them, "A long time ago, there was a world war, and we fought and hated our neighbours bitterly for generations, but that is over now. And that hatred is gone from our people forever."
The difficulty of this debate, is that so many people are trying to rationalize, defend, or justify the decisions and actions of leaders that have been dead for upto a centruy. Leaders of todays world fear to tread into the debate, either for fear of what their own involvement may have been (and what scrutiny of modern investigative techinques may bear), or the ramifications of "drawing lines in the sand" will bring to their door, for a tragedy that unfurled in the adolescency of the 20th century. But they do so to try to help heal this wound. (to what degree of success is questionable)
The real tragedy is that the only ones that can heal this wound are the two parties that share a border. And when the only thing you are tought about this scar is that it hurts still because of the other, how can anybody expect anything other than arguement?
After reading this, let's all acknowlege the progress that has already been made in healing these peoples.
Although the most obvious thing is the ongoing arguement, look how many more Turks and Armenians are able to talk about this instead of fight about it. For generations, each has been taught that they are right, they are in the right and they have been right all along. It will take generations to come to learn a new way. Peace is possibe, please, don't abandon hope.
Lazlee
26 October 2007
The brazenly RACIST comments left by Armenians are shocking. It is equally shocking they have not been soundly condemned. Promoting racism and ethnic hatred like this is evil.
What civilized jurisprudence permits indicting a nation of crimes against humanity with more than half of the evidence concealed? Or, declaring a nation’s guilty without due process of law?
England, France, Russia and the U.S. still conceal archival material about events in southeastern Anatolia during WWI. It is alarming and suspicious that Armenia still refuses access to its archives, and without condemnation by other nations—shockingly, not even by those passing judgment in “genocide proclamations.” That the Armenian Diaspora uniformly supports concealing Armenia’s archives documenting their history should raise grave concerns.
Armenians demand free speech, but shout down any who dare to state a true fact: this issue is contested. They say no one has the right to speak this truth. The EU lectures Turkey to allow freedom of speech, while France and Switzerland pass laws criminalizing statements disputing genocide claims—does this hypocrisy not bother anyone?
The holocaust perpetrated by during WWII cannot be compared to what occurred during WWI. Armenian genocide claims are tied to Ottoman relocation orders.
However, Armenian revolutionary leader Garo Armen writes that over 160,000 Armenians joined the Russian army and fought against the Ottoman regime BEFORE any relocation order issued (see http://books.google.com/books?id=4XYMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1&dq=why%20armenia%20should%20be%20free&as_brr=0#PPP15,M1). He admits Armenian revolutionary groups refused to join the Ottoman regime when asked before WWI began, instead Armenians openly joined Russia against the Ottomans.
What source states that European Jews rose against Germany before WWII to form Israel in the heart of Germany? Please cite one if you can.
Armenians have spent millions of dollars in a 30 year global effort to obtain parliamentary proclamations of genocide because they cannot press their claims in a court of law while concealing half the evidence.
Is this a pursuit of the truth? Or, a pursuit of unadulterated vengeance and restitution of lands that Armenian revolutionary forces could not obtain by conventional war?
And, how have European parliaments allowed themselves to become such unquestioning puppets in this madness?
Balkaci
26 October 2007
It seems that 100 years of Armenian Propaganda paralised the basic logical reflexes of most people.
As a Turkish citizen I declare that I will accept the so called genocide:
1. When Armenians can show a single Armenian mass grave. Not much I only ask for a single mass grave.
2. When the Armenians show a single Ottoman document oredering mass killing of the Armenians. Not much ony one. Please do not come up with the forged "andonian documents"!
3. When the Armenians explain why they do not go an international court to end this but instead resort to endless racist propaganda.
4. When the Armenians explain why Armenians in Izmir, istanbul were left alone. Why Katholic and protestan Armenians were left alone. Why in 1916 a new law letting Armenian to return their homes and claim their property was issued
5. When the Armenian explain why the ministery of commerce and ambassador to England was Armenian till 1914 if there was a Nazi style racial hatered.
5.When the Armenians explain why there were 16 armenian senators in the Ottoman senate in 1915 if there was a Nazi style racial hatered.
7. When the Armenians explain why Bogos nubar pasa (aprominent Armenian leader) was offered a chair in 1914 but he rejected?
8. When the Armenians explain Why they had to notoriously forge documents (andonian documents) and pictures.
9. When the Armenians explain Why they had to kill 44 Turkish diplomats.
10. When the Armenians explain Why they had to plant bombs to Stanford Shaws house (a prominent historian that rejects Armenian claims). Why they had to treaten Gilles Verstain (another prominent historian that rejects Armenian claims) with death.
11. When the Armenians explain why 527.000 Turks slayed by Armenian Volunteers in the Russiann Army and Armenian insurgents does not matter.
12. When the Armenians explain why the initial Armenian loss figure was 600.000. but then first inflated to 800.000 now to 1.5 mil.
13. When the Armenians explain why they show Russian soldiers pictures with their victims and present it as Turkish soldiers.
14. When the Armenians explain Why they show pictures from Lebenon famine and present it as genocide photos.
.......
Balkaci
26 October 2007
Ah a final one
15. When they explain what these newspaper articles that document Armenian Treason, Rebelion and atrocities mean?
http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/09/1961-new-series-innocent-armenians.html
edd
26 October 2007
INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF GENOCIDE SCHOLARS
April 6, 2005
Dear Prime Minister Erdogan:
We are writing you this open letter in response to your call for an "impartial study by historians" concerning the fate of the Armenian people in the Ottoman Empire during World War I. We represent the major body of scholars who study genocide in North America and Europe. We are concerned that in calling for an impartial study of the Armenian Genocide you may not be fully aware of the extent of the scholarly and intellectual record on the Armenian Genocide and how this event conforms to the definition of the United Nations Genocide Convention. We want to underscore that it is not just Armenians who are affirming the Armenian Genocide but it is hundreds of independent scholars, who have no affiliations with governments, and whose work spans many countries and nationalities and the course of decades. The scholarly evidence reveals the following:
On April 24, 1915, under cover of World War I, the Young Turk government of the Ottoman Empire began a systematic genocide of its Armenian citizens - an unarmed Christian minority population. More than a million Armenians were exterminated through direct killing, starvation, torture, and forced death marches. Another million fled into permanent exile. Thus an ancient civilization was expunged from its homeland of 2,500 years. The Armenian Genocide was the most well-known human rights issue of its time and was reported regularly in newspapers across the United States and Europe. The Armenian Genocide is abundantly documented by thousands of official records of the United States and nations around the world including Turkey's wartime allies Germany, Austria and Hungary, by Ottoman court-martial records, by eyewitness accounts of missionaries and diplomats, by the testimony of survivors, and by decades of historical scholarship.
The Armenian Genocide is corroborated by the international scholarly, legal, and human rights community:
1. Polish jurist Raphael Lemkin, when he coined the term genocide in 1944,cited the Turkish extermination of the Armenians and the Nazi extermination of the Jews as defining examples of what he meant by genocide.
2. The killings of the Armenians is genocide as defined by the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.
3. In 1997 the International Association of Genocide Scholars, an organization of the world's foremost experts on genocide, unanimously passed a formal resolution affirming the Armenian Genocide.
4. 126 leading scholars of the Holocaust including Elie Wiesel and Yehuda Bauer placed a statement in the New York Times in June 2000 declaring the "incontestable fact of the Armenian Genocide" and urging western democracies to acknowledge it.
5. The Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide (Jerusalem), the Institute for the Study of Genocide (NYC) have affirmed the historical fact of the Armenian Genocide.
6. Leading texts in the international law of genocide such as William A. Schabas's Genocide in International Law (Cambridge University Press, 2000) cite the Armenian Genocide as a precursor to the Holocaust and as a precedent for the law on crimes against humanity.
We note that there may be differing interpretations of genocide - how and why the Armenian Genocide happened, but to deny its factual and moral reality as genocide is not to engage in scholarship but in propaganda and efforts to absolve the perpetrator, blame the victims, and erase the ethical meaning of this history. We would also note that scholars who advise your government and who are affiliated in other ways with your state-controlled institutions are not impartial. Such so-called "scholars" work to serve the agenda of historical and moral obfuscation when they advise you and the Turkish Parliament on how to deny the Armenian Genocide.
We believe that it is clearly in the interest of the Turkish people and their future as a proud and equal participant in international, democratic discourse to acknowledge the responsibility of a previous government for the genocide of the Armenian people, just as the German government and people have done in the case of the Holocaust.
Sincerely,
Robert Melson
Professor of Political Science
President, International Association of Genocide Scholars
Israel Charny
Vice President, International Association of Genocide Scholars
Editor in Chief, Encyclopedia of Genocide
Peter Balakian
Donald M. and Constance H. Rebar Professor of the Humanities
Colgate University
Etienne
26 October 2007
I personally don't really care about what any historian says or what Turks say. I listen and trust one voice only, which the voice of my granparents, and the granparents of my other Armenian friends. I think of this situation very pragmatically; if my great grandfather is the only survivor of the slaughter from his village, and nearly every Armenian in the world can tell the stories of the great grandparents and their ordeal, doesn't it plainly make sense that a genocide took place. I truely can't see how my ancestors (farmers, sheep herders in the mountains of Baceh) were collaborators with the Russians or that they deserved to be pulled out of their homes and shot or put to the march. On a human level, I am in shock that so many Turks deny the Ottoman government's systematic killing of the Armenians. I've never experienced such blindness. At the end of the day, history can be twisted around and argued over etc. ect. and I'm sure that all holocaust deniers can come up with some great arguements that some people will support, but talk to the people, the survivors and their pains. How they, because of their religion or ethnicity, were brutally killed in a systematic fashion. Armenians around the world don't fight for their ancestors because they have nothing better to do. This is a long struggle for justice that we believe our ancestors deserve, for the sake of humanity and for the sake of our people.
Socrates
26 October 2007
MontrealTurk
Think for yourself rather than get confused with all the infomation surrounding the Armenian genocide.
FACT 1: The Turkish government in 1915 was led by the 'Three Pashas' http://tinyurl.com/38orsf
FACT 2. The Committee of Union and Progress was their party which came to power. In order to come to power they assassinated Nazim Pasha and his successor Mahmud Sevket Pasha - in other words they were prepared to kill their own fellow Turkish countrymen in order to gain control of the country. These were the type of leaders running Turkey in 1915, so we are already dealing with a bunch of murderers, never mind the Armenians.
FACT 3: The deportations. Turkey does not deny carrying out deporations of the Armenians, because they were regarded as possible insurgents.
FACT 4. The deportations of men, women and childen were not to some holiday destination beside the seaside, but to the Syrian Desert, some hundreds of miles away. Naturally, very few survived the journey which they had to make on foot.
Now draw your own conclusions.
Quote:
At first the Government showed some inclination to protect these departing throngs. The officers usually divided them into convoys, in some cases numbering several hundred, in others several thousand. The civil authorities occasionally furnished ox-carts which carried such household furniture as the exiles had succeeded in scrambling together. A guard of gendarmerie accompanied each convoy, ostensibly to guide and protect it. Women, scantily clad, carrying babies in their arms or on their backs, marched side by side with old men hobbling along with canes. Children would run along, evidently regarding the procedure, in the early stages, as some new lark. A more prosperous member would perhaps have a horse or a donkey, occasionally a farmer had rescued a cow or a sheep, which would trudge along at his side, and the usual assortment of family pets - dogs, cats, and birds - became parts of the variegated procession. From thousands of Armenian cities and villages these despairing caravans now set forth; they filled all the roads leading southward; everywhere, as they moved on, they raised a huge dust, and abandoned débris, chairs, blankets, bedclothes, household utensils, and other impedimenta, marked the course of the processions. When the caravans first started, the individuals bore some resemblance to human beings; in a few hours, however, the dust of the road plastered their faces and clothes, the mud caked their lower members, and the slowly advancing mobs, frequently bent with fatigue and crazed by the brutality of their "protectors," resembled some new .and strange animal species. Yet for the better part of six months, from April to October, 1915, practically all the highways in Asia Minor were crowded with these unearthly bands of exiles. They could be seen winding in and out of every valley and climbing up the sides of nearly every mountain - moving on and on, they scarcely knew whither, except that every road led to death. Village after village and town after town was evacuated of its Armenian population, under the distressing circumstances already detailed. In these six months, as far as can be ascertained, about 1,200,000 people started on this journey to the Syrian desert.
Source: http://tinyurl.com/ywnzrc
Lazlee
26 October 2007
The First Shot
By Prof. Justin McCarthy
University of Louisville
[O]ne incontrovertible fact that is never mentioned is —Armenians died because of conflicts started by Armenians. The Turks responded to Armenian attacks. Sometimes the Turks overreacted; sometimes they acted out of revenge, sometimes the actions of Turks and Kurds were wrong. But the Turks did not start the bloodshed. They did not start the long conflict between Armenians and Muslims that began in the 1790s. They did not start the conflict between Turks and Armenians in World War I.
In 1796, was it Turks who attacked Armenians? No, it was Armenian rebels who allied themselves with the enemies of their country.
In 1828, it was not the Turks who attacked the Armenians. It was the Armenians who took the homes and farms of the Turks.
In 1878, was it the Turks who attacked the Armenians? No, it was Armenian rebels who once again helped the Russian invaders. It was Armenians who oppressed the Turks of Erzurum.
In the 1890s did the Turks first attack the Armenians? No, it was Armenian revolutionaries who first attacked the Turks.
In 1909 did the Turks first attack the Armenians? No, it was
Armenian revolutionaries who began to attack Muslims.
In 1915, did the Turks first attack the Armenians? No, it was Armenian rebels who seized Van and killed Van’s Muslims. It was Armenians who raided Muslim villages and killed Muslims on the roads. It was Armenians who killed Ottoman officials, destroyed Ottoman Army communications, and acted as spies, guerillas, and partisan troops for the Russians.
In 1919 was it the Turks of Baku who first attacked the Armenians? No, it was the Armenians who attacked the Turks.
Some will argue that the actions of the Armenian rebels were justified, because they were not properly governed by the Ottomans. It is true that in many periods of history Ottoman Eastern Anatolia was poorly ruled. But it is also true that the time of Armenian rebellion was also the time when Ottoman rule was greatly improving. Nineteenth century reforms, begun by Mahmud II, passing through the Tanzimat period, and culminating in the reforms of the Committee of Union and Progress, had improved governmental control in the East. It often was this improvement that caused Armenians such as those in Zeytun to revolt, because a stronger central government collected taxes more efficiently.
At the time of the Armenian revolts life was becoming better. The exception to this occurred in the regions that suffered due to Russian invasion and expulsion of Muslim peoples, and those Russian actions had been supported by the Armenian nationalists. The Armenian nationalists had themselves and their Russian friends to blame.
Whatever the reason for the Armenian revolts, reaction from the Ottomans and local Muslims was justified. Muslim excesses, like Armenian excesses, were never justified, but opposition to the Armenian revolt was morally and politically necessary. The Armenians who rebelled were a minority that planned to dominate a Muslim majority. It was the duty of the sultan’s government to fight against such an injustice.
Lazlee
26 October 2007
What the Armenians don't tell you:
ARMENIANS with the aid of Russia PLANNED TO ETHNICALLY CLEANSE southeatern Anatolia of the overwhelming majority Ottoman muslim population to form a "Greater Armenia" for the minority Armenian population (approx. 17% of the population).
.
That is why the Armenian and Russian archives concerning this matter remain closed...
Lazlee
26 October 2007
Fiction: deporations of the Armenians, because they were regarded as possible insurgents.
FACT: 160,000 Armenians joined Russian forces in 1914, guided and fought with the Russian military to defeat the Ottoman Empire.
FACT: Without the aid of Armenians, Russian forces would have been defeated by the Ottomans on the eastern front of WWI.
Pastermadjian, G. Why Armenia Should Be Free (available for download on google e-books).
beta
27 October 2007
I guess it's not surprising that the citizens of a country where the bestseller book in 2005 was "Mein Kampf" would have a problem with accepting that mass killings are wrong and shameful. If you bunch are serious about examining your past...look over the eye witness accounts that were recorded by German military and government officers while they were allies with the ottoman empire. Look at the newspaper articles from reporters of the time. Look at what your own Generals wrote and said about the events...the fact that there was an Armenian genocide is not being disputed by anyone in the world outside of Turkey. Even when a handful refuse to acknowledge it for political or economical reasons...they do not dispute or deny the facts.
I recommend that every Armenian, Turk and anyone else interested in this topic to glance over some of the historic documents with regards to the genocide. I personally have a better understanding of why Turks have selective amnesia after reading these articles.
www.rememberarmenia.co.uk
beta
27 October 2007
Prof. Justin McCarthy ...LOL
just check out this clowns work on wikipedia yourself.
I hope your next historic expert is not David Irving.
Socrates
27 October 2007
Prof. Justin McCarthy states:
In 1915, did the Turks first attack the Armenians? No, it was Armenian rebels who seized Van and killed Van’s Muslims.
The Professor appears to be calling the US Ambassador to Turkey in 1915 a liar.
This is the telegram received by the Secretary of State from Ambassador Morgenthau in relation to the so-called Armenian uprising:
http://www.aidarmenia.com/images/telegram.jpg
and here is what the Ambassador related in his memoirs published in 1918:
http://tinyurl.com/yvsddr
Balkaci
27 October 2007
Quoting the letter above:
"3. In 1997 the International Association of Genocide Scholars, an organization of the world's foremost experts on genocide, unanimously passed a formal resolution affirming the Armenian Genocide."
Hillarious! A joke so bad that I even can not smile!!!
President of the International Association of Genocide Scholars Israel Charney is a psychiatrist. An expert on Family theraphy. FAMILY THERAPHY!!! That is the kind of expertise that Armeians present when sayin almost all scolars agree that there is a genocide. VIRTUALLY ALL HISTORIANS WHO CAN READ OTTOMAN TURKISH REJECT ARMENIAN FALSIFICATIONS!!!!
Look at the tone of the letter. What kind o a biggot will call respected historias who have chairs in major USA universities so-called historian? let me answer: a third class Family therapist.
beta
27 October 2007
It's a sad state of affair that a Turk reads a letter from Genocide Scholars about the killing and massacre of 1.5million human beings..and is offended by the tone of the document?
I am appaled that "experts" who are directly on the payroll of the Turkish foreign ministry are quoted here. The association of Genocide Scholars is an unbiased, independent organization that has looked into the facts. They are not linked to Armenians in any way. It amazes me that the even the so called "educated" turks are incapable of seeing the facts even if it hit them in their head.
I remain optimistic that the Turkish people will eventually become free of the brainwashing history textbooks that they are subjected to and will face their history and appreciate the horror that the ottoman empire inflicted on it's own citizens. I see a glimpse of that already...perhaps not on this webpage, but by many Turkish scholars who are unfortunately persecuted by their own government under a ridiculous law to silence the truth. This paranoid behaviour has to stop before Turkey can be differentiated from countries like Iran, Syria, etc...
beta
27 October 2007
92 years after the incidents, Turkey continues not only to obfuscate the facts surrounding the massacres but to deny them outright. Very simply, you don't bring up the issue, but if you must do so, accept the official version: a "mere" 300,000 to 600,000 "died" at the time, and their deaths were "the unfortunate consequence of war".
That is the version modern day Turks learn at school from their sanitised textbooks, which barely mention the tragedy. They thus grow up with little comprehension of its scope.
It's a mystery why Turks do not want to own up to their past and why they persecute those intellectuals and academics in their midst who do.
The novelist Elif Shafak, author of the critically acclaimed The Bastard of Istanbul, and Orhan Pamuk, the 2006 winner of the Nobel Prize for Literature, have both faced charges of (you guessed it) "insulting Turkishness" when they spoke up.
by Fawaz Turki
-------
ladybroadoak
28 October 2007
We have genocide going on in CANADA on an ongoing basis against the indigenous.
In order to get international attention on this, I post this here so that people can watch it and then take action to support Kevin Arnett and others who are fighting it. Today's call is around depleted uranium dumping on native lands .. and around the terrible legacy of the residential schools. History's LESSONS on genocide simply must be learned.
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?
docid=-6637396204037343133&q=unrepentant&total
Bagraduni
28 October 2007
Turkey is a brainwashed nation and this man/clone from its London Embassy, like soooooo tooooo many of them is a good proof of that. It only knows the "history" (including the Armenian Genocide) that it has been taught by The Turkish Historical Society, a quasi-State bureacratic institution created by Ataturk in the early 1930s - interestingly before the Nazis created theirs headed by Gobbles! It is curious that apart from producing official fables as history through State Universities and state research centres under tight supervision and control of The Historical Society, Turkey has had to protect these fables by punishing anyone that dared to challenge them (these fables) through totaliterian/authoritarian/semi-facsist "insulting turkishness" laws, like the infamous 301 penal code, and others, leading to the prosecution of their best INDEPENDENT, LIBERAL, DEMOCRATIC AND DECENT/BRAVE minds, such as (to name but a few): Ragip Zarakolou, Ayshe Nour Zarakolou (who died after over 15 years in prison), Orhan Pamuk (a Noble Prize winner who has fled to the USA , normally celebrated by civilised/democratic countries!), the late Hrant Dink (murdered outside his Agos Newspaper office in Constantinople in broad daylight), Elif Shafak, Taner Akcam, the late Yilmaz Guney... .
To this list one can add hundreds of upright, independent and decent writers, publishers, teachers, academics and journalists who are brave and decent enough to stand to this huge and brutal military- burecratic bully/lie machine (such as this fellow from their London Embassy) at the cost of loss of jobs and livlihood, prosecution and prison and even death by the Grey Wolves/Deep State murderers (Hrant Dink is only one of a long list).
Thesre's no way anyone should dignify any of these clones of the The Turkish Historical Society by entering into any debate with them, or trying to correct their fable-based reasoning and "facts" (selective, out of context, doctored, massaged and manipulated... and when these wont do shameless straight lying!).
If Turkey wants to continue to behave in this wain then
I suggest (for the sake of consistency) The Republic of Turkey should rename itself The Republic of Ostrch, or better still The Proud Republic of Ostrich With Its Head Deep In The Sand (abreviated to TPROOWIHDITS). For good measure it should also create The Ostrich Flat Earth Society as the sister organisation of Dr Halacoglu's Turkish/Ostrich Historical Society. Just to be on the safe side it would be a good idea to have a penal code 301FE (301 Flat Earth) to protect the Flat Earth Ostrich thesis and to prosecute anyone who dared to disagree with the official Ostrich State's view that the Earth was flat - or lied that the Earth is really roun! Also given enough "incentives" the western luminaries who have sold their soul for decades for 30 pieces of silver to help spin more fables about the Armenian Genocide for internal consumption as well as re-export to the rest of the world, might join in the new Ostrich effort to prove to the World that: the Earth IS FLATafter all!
Why try to join Europe (liberal values of humanism and compassion, human rights, freedom of thought...)when you can convert the latter to join Ostrich-ism?!
Goodbye Europe!
Bagraduni
28 October 2007
Look forward to seeing in the New Statesman articles by David Irving and President Mahmoud Ahmadi-Nejad of Iran on the Holocaust as well as some by the Flat Earth Society "debating" and discussing (seriously!) that the Earth is flat!
MontrealTurk
28 October 2007
Obviously Bagraduni is incapable of carrying out a debate in a civilized manner. It was hard to find a coherent argument in his nonsensical tirade.
He seems to be brainwashed himself, not to notice the level of brainwashing in the Armenian Churches. Everything he wrote is far from truth. Armenian genocide center is RA’s most powerful government agency isn’t it? Visiting the geno museum is the number one outing for any foreign visitor. France and Holland have equivalent of Law 301. If America does not have a written law to protect American Citizens, it sure has an unwritten law to protect armenian propagandists. Why else would PBS airing of a debate be canceled because two scholars defending Turkish history appeared? Why was His Holiness Mesrob Mutafyan not allowed to speak in Washington DC? Whay are Turkish academicians' conferences canceled? Shame on EU or US politicians who allow themselves to be used by such propagandists.
MontrealTurk
28 October 2007
Beta came up with a new evidence to prove Armenian genocide; so many copies of Mein Kampf were sold in Turkey in 2005; therefore Turks must have relocated the Armenians who were zealously attacking them in 1915 for their religiosity or ethnicity, which makes it geno in 21st century standards. He does not mention that the books price was slashed down dirt cheap, and I bought two copies, after hearing news that some people were being pissed off for the large sales volume.
The only evidence to veracity of armen geno that family psychiatrist Israel Charny came up with is that when families seek advice from him on the verge of a breakdown, usually, they all blame the other one as “s/he did it.”. Then he goes on to say that he knows nothing about the historic events. Very pathetic indeed. The only conclusion left is people are passing their verdict based on their bias.
Turkish academicians who sent in requests for participation in the Boca Raton conference were tersely refused, and not even the Turkish associations were allowed to enter the conference room. That is the only way they could pass a UNANIMOUS decision. If they were sure of the outcome, they would not gather behind closed doors.
Another freaky event with this meeting is, they hid the decision from June 6, 2005 the date the meeting took place, until October 23,2005 – the day another closed door conference was scheduled to take place in Istanbul’s Bosphorus University. No Turks were given invitations to listen to the conference either. The so called geno scholars’ so-called UNANIMOUS decision was published in the Herald Tribune to hit the streets of Istanbul on 23 Sep 2005...
Very carefully planned, series of tricks, isn’t it?
Turkish Government has every right to be a party to this debate. Turkish scholars and foreign scholars also should not be attacked, for not agreeing with Armenian scenarists. SCENARIST is what I call your famous “Prof.” Dadrian. He is Armenian isn’t he? Then he must be biased. Isn’t minister Vartan Oskanyan on the payroll of the armenian government? You must be armenian. Am I kicking you out of debate for you must be biased? You should own up to your history. Dashnaks should apologize for causing the death of millions of turks and amenos during WW1.
MontrealTurk
28 October 2007
The level of brainwashing is obvious from the level of the commnets sent to this column defending the armeno treachery as geno. None of them are able to argue logically. Childish slogans, parroting caught here and there.
MontrealTurk
28 October 2007
Socrates:
The facts you bring forth are correct, only the forced conclusion that you draw out of them is an outright lie. The Ottoman Army was led up by pashas extremely well trained, who served honorably to defend their country and people well. There is nothing pointing that there was ethnic or religious put down on the side of Turks. The reverse is true of armenians putting down turks. They still do! You must have noticed they are blindly spitting out venom in these columns.
Evaluate my facts below . Can you say with a straight face that Armenians were cherry picking? Sorry, sad as it may be not all death can be labeled geno. Especially not warring parties.:
Armenian Revolutionary Hinchak Party was founded in August 1887 and Tashnaq party in 1890.
These terrorist organizations believed that an Armenian Republic could be founded by terrorist methods published organized instructions on how to kill the Muslims, and how to demolish the cities. One of the articles from the “Hınçakyan İhtilal Komitesi Azası’nın Vezaifine (Vazifesine) Dair Talimat” [The Duties of Hunchak Revolutionary Committee Members] instructions booklet is as follows:
Article 8: Each Committee should have a chief executioner with a team of executioners around him who share his values. Duties of this team include getting rid of those who disobey within and around the committee with the orders of the Committee. There are three methods of punishment: (1) warning, (2) beating, (3) death. There are three methods of death: (1) dagger, (2) revolver, (3) choking or poisoning.”
Methods of blowing up buildings are described as: “…Methods to be used for blowing up homes and other buildings: (1) solid dynamite, (2) dynamite solution, salicylic chemical, (3) derivatives of explosives prepared with gunpowder!”
Another similar document titled “Müdafaa-i Şahsiyye İçin Talimat [Instructions of Self Protection]” and bearing the signature of Toman was printed in 1910 and was distributed by the thousands. Although it poses as a self protection, this document actually prescribes various ways of wiping out Muslims. On page 4, after explaining which weapons should be used under each circumstance, it goes on to explain how to raid on villages and set them on fire as follows:
“There are three kinds of villages. (1) Armenian villages among other Armenian villages that are habited by Armenians, (2) Villages habited by Armenians but located among villages which are habited by others, (3) Villages where Armenians live altogether with others.
“In all three types of villages, organizations bear no difference. They all should join the “forces” with their ammunition and weapons. The forces are divided as (1) stationary and (2) mobile. Each force should be assigned a chief and an assistant to the chief. The mobile and stationary forces should each elect an experienced chieftain for their village. These chieftains will be the ultimate authority in the villages and all the forces in that village will be under his command. These chieftains will be the representatives of the government and of the armed forces in their villages. All village chieftains will get together to elect three persons in their district as temporary armed command commissions. These government representatives (Erkanı Harbiye Heyeti) and the commander will have the power to collect arms from disabled users and redistribute them to more experienced persons during skirmishes. Messengers should be formed to inform nearby village forces in case of a surprise attack on a village. If the Armenians living as minority among others find themselves under attack and if they are unable to get help in time, they should collect their valuables and move in to other Armenian villages.
“In villages where the enemy numbers are fewer than Armenians, the former should be asked to leave if they have not done so on their own. Those who do not leave could be taken as hostage depending on the situation and the decision of the government.
“During skirmishes, doors will be kept open and those who are escaping from the army or police forces will be allowed to enter. Civilians wandering around without weapons should be forbidden. The villagers have to pay for any weapons lost to the enemy. Weapons taken over from the enemy belong to whoever confiscates them.”
“In order to attack villages:
1) Fortification points of enemy villages must be known.
2) The escape routes must be decided beforehand and kept under control of the outpost.
3) Villages that may aid to enemy must be explored beforehand and must be prevented.
4) Only three sides of the village to be attacked must be kept under siege. One side must appear like an escape route for the residents. (If contained from all four sides, the enemy may counter attack and endanger our victory.) Only a small contingent should be hidden on the fourth side to press and to inflict casualties on them. Actually, the real reason to leave an open side is to assure speedy victory by dividing the enemy’s forces, more so than allowing an escape route to them.
5) Attacking at dawn would surprise the enemy. Attacking earlier would cause us losses while waiting for the light.
6) In order to create chaos and commotion, fires must be started in different places at the same time and expanded. Necessary equipment must be prepared beforehand.
7) If there are no cavalrymen among the attackers, spare horses must be brought along to carry the wounded and the dead bodies into the Armenian villages so that they cannot be identified.
“A few days before the attack, strong and reliable agents selected by Chief of our Armed Forces must be sent to the targeted village. They must stay there as long as it requires to collect the necessary information. Consequent attack preparations must be planned based on these agents’ reports.”
While the Turkish Army was fighting on multiple fronts, thousands of kilometers away from their homes, Armenians were busy preparing brutal plans to eradicate their neighbors of 900 years. An Armed Chief Commander is going to be elected in each city, every Armenian will carry out the orders of this chieftain, agents will be sent to whichever village will be attacked, fire will be started in various places at dawn, and bullets will be raining on the Turks who flee their homes in panic. This was their plan.
beta
28 October 2007
Montreal Turk.
It's unfortunate that a claimed "Canadian" has such an extreme denial embedded in their head. Canada, your adopted country, is one of the many countries that have recognized the genocide.
Everything you regurgitate here is from Turkish history books which is not supported by any international document or organization. I am troubled that even with the convenience of the internet, when you are guided to independent sources of information so that you can freely judge for yourself the volume of evidence that contradicts the Turkish government version of history, you refuse to even look at it.
Stop talking about a hypothetical "plan" that Armenians, Russians, Jews and everyone else had to kill all the Turks and Muslims. That kind of paranoid attitude is exactly the hallmark of extremist fanatics and unbecoming of somebody who claims to be a citizen of a country like Canada.
We are talking about historic facts, facts verified by Turkish documents (which has been censored or you cannot even read anymore thanks to your inability to read that alphabet)..facts that were recorded by the international community of the time..embassadors, journalists, military observers...people who were allies of Ottoman Turkey of the time. You seem to convenietnly dismiss all the evidence, even the evidence from allies of the Ottoman empire. The German archive is full of eye witness reports of the massacres and ethnic cleansing. How do you argue away those evidence? The Germans were out to get the Turks too? How can you and Genocide deniers like the author of the above article say with a straight face thatt EVERYONE in the world, all the international eye witness reports and evidence in German, French, English and US archives are wrong..and the version censored by your government is the correct one.
Initial questioning of facts is a sign of intelligence, but denial of the overwhelming evidence is nothing but a sign of stupidity. Your denial only helps advance the cause of those who consider Turkey to be a country full of extremist-religious fanatics who are nothing but a danger to a stable European Union community.
MontrealTurk
28 October 2007
Dear Beta: You are putting me down and attacking my personal belief, while defending yourself with so-and-so's say so. I see that someone who disagrees with you on the armen geno case is not fit to be a Canadian Citizen. Only armenians deserve to adopt that country, etc.
I did not write world history. If you do not know that Turkish Army was fighting against the French and British Empire in the Dardanelles during WW1, there is not much I can do to educate you. April 25 1915 is the day Allied forces landed at Gallipoli. They had been holding a siege from the sea for months. Ask any Australian if you think I am lying. Russia also invaded Eastern Anatolia. The Tzar sent a thank you note to Armenian patriarch for the armenains complicity in the invasion. The Russians left their ammunition with the armenians while they were retreating. And your ancestors put those weapons to good use against innocent civilian Turks. Is it unbeliavable, or do you find it difficult to face your history. Why do you think RA is running away from historical debate on the matter? Obviously, your pundits know that your story is not fit to stand history's scrutiny.
All you must have heard is propaganda.
It is true that I do not know the alphabet of Ottoman times, but you are fooling only yourself to say that historians who translate Ottoman archives are all in cahoots with armenians and are hiding the facts.
Nobody in the world is denying that armenians died - needlessly indeed. Dashnaks should own up to their responsibility in the matter.
I repeat, not every death can be labeled genocide.
Something that is not proven cannot be denied.
I invite you to Turkey to see for yourself the real Turkey. May be the myth brainwashed into your head will disappear. I am allowed to call you brainwashed am I not, after you called me st-pid.
beta
28 October 2007
So there was a war...so what? how does that excuse killing 1.5million civilians? if we accept that argument, then I am sure Goebbles had just as good an excuse for killing 6million Jews... What a ridiculous, disgusting notion!!!
The germans apologized for the jewish genocide..the japanese apologized for the chinese massacres..Turkey is the only country still hiding it's head in the sand.
You seem to admit that there were mass killings...but then somehow justify them. Given your argument about the cause of the Armenian Genocide...the Turkish government should start with the Kurds now. There is Kurdish rebellion in the south of Turkey now..they killed some Turks..do you think it's acceptable to ethnically cleanse Turkey of Kurds? Judging by the opinion on the streets of Turkey these days..apparently Yes.
This is a moot argument. Just as I said before in my previous comment, the majority of Turks (just like you) are victims to their own santised "facts" and the few that are independent enough to face the historic facts are persecuted under "insulting Turkishness". I guess it's not fair for me to accuse all turks of being brainwashed when there is serious consequences to those who dissent from the "official" version of history.
Bagraduni
29 October 2007
MontrealTurk
Obviously you are a fully paid up member/clone of the Ostrich Historical Society, judging from the "sophisticated" level/depth of your fables, coming from very deep layers of sand!
I don't think Beta's very reasonable advice about abandoning Flat Earth fables/propaganda and acquainting yourself with INDEPENDENT literature and real research (now that you live in a liberal/democratic/civilised country like Canada where you won't be prosecuted, persecuted or murdered for INDEPENDENT thinking, research or expression...) will cut any ice with such a deep rooted ostrich as you.
However for your information, and in answer to your (personal) questions: although I love Armenian church architecture and absolutely adore and listen to Armenian church liturgy I have been an atheist all my adult life so I can’t have been brainwashed by the Armenian Church even if you were right (which you absolutely are not) that that Teh Armenian Churches were brainwashing Armenians (almost the whole world which acknowledges and accepts the Genocide of the Armenians by the Turksih State?!). Perhaps that’s what your forefathers also believed which would explain why they murdered in cold blood thousands of Armenian clergy? And why they arrested and tortured to insanity the greatest Ottoman/Armenian - and widely acclaimed European - musicologist Komitas on 24th April 1915 (oh, he was also a Vartabed/priest of the Armenian Church! The Ottomans’ German allies forced Tallat-Enver to release him from captivity but he never spoke or wrote anything after that and spent the rest of his life in a mental asylum and died there, in Paris, in 1935)?
You asked if the “Armenian Genocide ‘center’ is R[epublic of] A[rmenia]’s most powerful government agency isn’t it”? No actually it isn’t! It is a very moving Monument to the victims of the Genocide of the Armenians carried out by your forefathers/the genocidal Ottoman Turkish State. It was built in the late 1960s. Armenians and decent civilised people who respect and understand human values of compassion and common decency, including an increasing number of Turkish people visit it and pay their respects. There is a very moving picture of Armin Wegner in his old age (the German officer who as a young man witnessed, documented and , risking his life and position, photographed the ‘deportations’ in 1915) kneeling before the Genocide Memorial Fire at Tsitsernakabert (“Armenian Genocide ‘center’”, if you like). Do a Google search and you will see it, perhaps that will teach you a little more about what the “Armenian Genocide ‘center’” is, that is if you have ANY humanity in your ostrich existence). Perhaps you and other Turks like you should visit it and pay your respects to the grave-less memory of let’s say “ONLY(!) 300,000” women, old men and children who died in the Syrian deserts from multiple rapes, thirst, hunger and diseases – inflicted upon them simply because they were 'untermensh-miserable-Armenian-dirt' who had dared to revolt against their masters, the master-race Turk - rather like today's Kurds?
You are also wrong about “France and Holland have equivalent of Law 301”. They don’t! It is only the Republic of Turkey that has and needs such a law (perhaps also Burma and Azerbaijan). Nazi Germany, South Africa, Stalinist Russia HAD such laws but these regimes have all been swept away into the dustbin of history.
What France, Switzerland, Germany, Austria and I believe Belgium have is a law prohibiting denial of Holocaust and Genocide.
This is understandable considering: 1) what these countries suffered from the racist ideology of Nazism; 2) the price they paid to get rid of it; and 3) Their increasing awareness to the danger of the racist-nationalist ideology of Turkism/Pan-Turkism AND ITS EXPORT to Europe where hundreds of thousands of Turks, clones/ostriches brainwashed in the hateful and racist ideology of Turkism, insult European liberal and democratic values of humanism and compassion by advocating and resorting to violence and destroying monuments to the memory of victims of mass murders and genocides - carried out by the genocidal Turkish state against the Armenians, as well as Assyrians, Greeks and Yezidis and Kurds. Doghu Pirencek, one such Turkish criminal (former assorted Maoist and now leader of an ultra-nationalist Turkish fringe party) was sentenced to prison in Switzerland last year and there are other cases in Belgium and perhaps Holland. These cases are bound to increase, considering that the brainwashing and the racist ideology of Turkism is so strong, that years of living in Europe (or Canada, as in your case) has no reforming and/or educational influence AT ALL.
I can’t see how else French citizens (Armenian or otherwise), for example, can exercise their civil and human right to erect monuments to their dead or have annual demonstrations and commemorations without the fear of being spat on, attacked or suffer other violations and indignities which although normal in “Istanbul” and Ankara are simply NOT ACCEPTABLE in Europe - whether France, Switzerland, Holland… . I suggest it would be reasonable and more sensible to expect Turkey and the Turks to accept and respect European values, especially if they wish to join Europe, or to come and live there., rather than for Europeans to abandon those values and revert to 1930s and 40s, or embrace the ultra nationalist racist values strongly in force in the Republic of Turkey. Wouldn’t you agree?
But I think I have gone on long enough. I’m very curious to find out your answer to Beta’s question about the new Untermensh in Turkey, namely the Kurds (and the Alevis? and others for that matter) who are, like Armenians a hundred years ago, revolting for justice and decency – respect for their identity, language, culture and other human rights (“No! we are not ‘mountain-turks’” they have been screaming for over 70 years). Is it their turn now to be genocided for daring to revolt against their masters, the Turkish Ubermensh/Master-race? (Sorry, to be “deported” and be taught a lesson, like the Armenians, "for their own safety")? Please read and answer Beta’s question! Thank you.
Bagraduni
29 October 2007
MontrealTurk
Sorry I forgot to include the military dictatorships in Latin America in the 1960s and 70s - such as Argentina, Chile, Brazil, Nicaragua, Paraguay - as well as in Indonesia, South Korea and others, which in addition to Nazi Germany, South Africa and Stalinist Russia have all been swept away into the dustbin of history and their people are free of 301 type laws or thought police.
However please note that although these were regimes based on military dictatorship (like today's Turkey) strictly speaking not all of them were dominated by an official racist-nationalist ideology (protected by 301 type laws) which are common features only in the Nazi regime in Hitler Germany, Apartheid South Africa and Young Turk and Kemalist regimes in Turkey.
Lazlee
29 October 2007
"An Armenian Revolutionary party is causing great evil and suffering to the ministry work...It is a secret organization managed with great skill and deceit known only in the East. ... they have the strongest hopes of preparing the way for Russia's entrance into Asia Minor to take possession. ... [they] will watch their opportunity to kill Turks and Khurds, will set fire to their villages, and then make their escape into the villages. The enraged Moslems will then rise and fall upon the defenceless Armenians and slaughter them with such barbarities that Russia will enter, in the name of humanity and Christian civilization, to take possession. ... When I denounced the scheme ... [he said Europe] will listen to our cry when it goes up in the shreik of our wives and children.... [this party is of Russian origin]...
Anna Bowman Dodd, In the Palaces of the Sultan p. 427 (1903),
http://books.google.com/books?id=JKgMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA427&dq=armenian+revolutionary&num=100&as_brr=1#PPA427,M1
Dodd's book is quoting a letter by Cyrus Hamlin published in: The Congregationalist, December 23, 1893; this letter was also quoted in "Foreign Relations of the United States," 1895, Part II, pp. 1415f.
Lazlee
29 October 2007
"Still again the hue and cry was raised in Europe and America that the soulles Turk, always the Turk, only the Turk, was the guilty one. Armenian agitators, Armenian jacks-in-office, Armenian revolutionary committees provoking the Turks to retaliate on their offenders in order to force the intervention of the Great powers[19]—these political mischief makers go scot-free while the ever vilified Osmanli is pilloried before the world as a monster of iniquity and a demon incarnate.
The Anatolian halil Halid, who was born and bred in Asia Minor and who spend many years in England, commenitng on the matters under consideration, pertinently asks, "Did the humanitarian British public know these? No; it does not care to know anything which might be favorable to the Turks. Have the political journals of this country—Britian—mentioned the facts I have stated? Of course not, because—to speak plainly—they know that in the Armenian pie there were the fingers of some of their own politicians."[20] And those that are wlel informed know the reason of Britain's attitude toward Turkey, for they know that "since 1829, when the Greeks obtained their independence, England's Near East policy has been remorselessly aimed at the demolition of the Turkish Empire and the destruction of Ottoman sovereignty.
Does France, the first nation of Europe to form an alliance with the sublime Porte, know these things? She does, but, at the present time, it suits her purpose to feign ignorance of them and to follow the policy of England in her dealings with those whom she has professed …
It is also evident that, so long as present conditions persist, spradic massacres like those provoked by the Armenians in Cilicia andConstantinople are inevitable."
[19] Pierre Loti tells of a French consul in Asia Minor who barely escaped assassination at the hands of an Armenian agitator who, when quesitoned regarding his attempt on the life of the functionary, cooly replied: "I did this in order that the turks might be accused of it and in the hope that the French would rise up against them after the murder of their consul." Les massacres d"Armenie, p. 50 (Paris, 1918).
[20] The Diary of A Turk, p. 130.
Rev. J.A. Zahm, C.S.C., Ph.D., LL.D. (H.J. Mozans), From Berlin to Bagdad and Babylon pp. 210-213 (1922).
http://books.google.com/books?id=lgANAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA210&dq=armenian+revolutionary&num=100&as_brr=1#PPA210,M1
Lazlee
29 October 2007
Armenian revolutionary groups, with the aid and knowledge of Allied forces massacred Turks in the hope of reprisals against their own innocent populace. The hope was that the Allied powers, and most importantly the U.S., would then be immediately incited to wage war against the Ottoman Empire.
This was the plan in the making since the late 1800s and is also set forth in Louise Nalbandian's book on Armenian Revolutionaries. See Louise Nalbandian, The Armenian Revolutionary Movement - The Development of Armenian Political Parties through the Nineteenth Century (Berkley and Los Angeles, 1963), pp.108-113.
The Hunchakian program advocated revolution as the only means of reaching the immediate objective. The arena of revolutionary activity was designed as Turkish Armenia. The Party believed that the existing social organisation in Turkish Armenia could be changed by VIOLENCE against the Turkish government and described the following methods. Propaganda, Agitation, Terror, Organisation, and Peasant and Worker Activities.
Propaganda was to be directed to the people to educate them toward two goals: The basic reasons and the proper time for revolution against the government; The social order that was to be established after the successful revolution.
AGITATION and TERROR were needed to "elevate the spirit of the people". Demonstrations against the government, refusal to pay taxes, demands for reforms, and HATRED of the aristocracy were part of the party's agitation campaign. TERROR was to be used as a method of protecting the people and winning their confidence in the Hunchak program.
...
IV. The most opportune time to institute the general rebellion for carrying out the immediate objective was when Turkey was engaged in war [as in WWI].
..................................
There was no genocide, only a failed attempt to form a "Greater Armenia" in a geographic location in which Armenians were a distinct minority comprising no more than 5-20% of any village.
Lazlee
29 October 2007
What is also fascinating is that, after WWI, the British detained many former Ottoman military officers on the island of Malta in order to put them on trial for war crimes committed against Armenians. Yet, when they asked the U.S. for evidence, the repy was that there was none.
-------------------------------
British Archives: PRO—F.O. 371/6500/ E.6311
Foreign Office to Geddes
Telegram no 775, dated June 16, 1921
The British Foreign Office forwarded to Washington a list of the names and brief particulars of 45 Turkish deportees “who are being detained in Malta with a view of trial in connection with the alleged outrages perpetrated on Armenians and other native Christians.” And requested again Sir A. Geddes “to ascertain as early as possible whether the United States Government can furnish evidence against any of these persons.”
.......................................................................
British Archives: PRO—F. 0. 371/6504/E.8515
R.C. Craigie, British Charge d’Affairs at Washington, to Lord Curzon,
Telegram No 722 of July 13, 1921
On July 13, 1921, the British Embassy in Washington replied as follows:
"I have the honor to inform your Lordship that a member of my staff visited the State Department yesterday in regard to the Turks who are at the present being detained in Malta with a view to trial. He was permitted to see a selection of reports from the United States consuls on the subject of the atrocities committed on the Armenians during the recent war. These reports, judged by the State Department to be the most useful for the purpose of His Majesty’s government, being chosen from among several hundreds.
I regret to inform your Lordship that there was nothing therein which could be used as evidence against the Turks who are being detained for trial in Malta. The reports seen made mention of only two names of the Turkish officials in question—those of Sabit bey and Suleyman Faik Pasha — and even in these cases the accounts given were confined to the personal opinions of the writers; no concrete facts being given which could constitute satisfactory incriminating evidence.
Department of State expressed the wish that no information supplied by them in this connection should be employed in a court of law. Having regard to this stipulation, and the fact that the reports in the possession of the Department of State do not appear in any case to contain evidence against these Turks which would be useful even for the purpose of corroborating information already in possession of H. Majesty’s government.
I believe nothing is to be hoped from addressing any further inquiries to the Department of State in this matter.”
Lazlee
29 October 2007
>>>Everything you regurgitate here is from Turkish history books which is not supported by any international document or organization.
beta
29 October 2007
one "evidence" from a letter quoting a letter..quoting a letter from 1895.
another "evidence" from confessions of an Armenian agitator, "questioned" by the Ottoman Turks and again..somebody told somebody about the confession. A book with a title "The diary of a Turk".
The best one is a legal document from the British archives.
It's amusing that even a person such as yourself, who is paid to do this, it's proving impossible to quote history and hide the truth. Your "evidence''' proves that the international community was so convinced about a genocide that a war crimes tirbunal was being considered...even as late at 1921. Is that not proof enough?
but apart from that...any independent thinking free mind would understand the content of the letter. It describes lack of evidence to prosecure a SELECT few Turkish officials as INDIVIDUALS...and in now way absolve or supports the Turkish version of events. For all we know, those poor Turkish soldiers could have been stationed thousands of miles away on some island and had no information about the genocide.
The evidence that mass killing occured is accepted by everyone (including your fake version). The evidence that it was centrally organized is accepted even by your own documents and I posted a comment quoting the Turkish Generial Vehib admitting to it.. The rest ...why it occured, what was the circumstances is just interesting for a Genocide Denier and nobody else.
Your ridiculous attempt to use irrelevant dates and names from history books as supporting document cannot work on free thinking individuals with the ability to read through the hog-wash.
I will not post anymore, because this is a futile attempt. Turkey and the majority of it's people cannot think freely. They are not allowed to. Until that changes intelligent dialogue is impossible.
beta
29 October 2007
One last thing..
The idea that genocides are still happening in the world... and will continue to happen... is inevitable as long as people are not repulsed by the idea of ethnic cleansing. To deny the genocides of the past is to provide the opportunity to justify new ones. We can already see similarities between the denials coming from Istanbul and the ones coming from Khartoom.
To give genocide deniers a platform to spew their twisted facts ("facts" that "excuses" organized mass killings) is beyond me. I am appalled that the New Statesman has given a platform to such individuals who "justify" mass killings of 1.5 million innocent human beings. ..1.5 million men, women, children and elderly.....1.5 million fellow human beings.
The behaviour of the Turkish nation is inexcusable in a civilised modern society.,,and it's even more inexcusable for a country being considered for membership in the EU.
Lazlee
29 October 2007
beta,
We all know that Armenians want to focus exclusively on events that occurred in 1915-1916 because they want to his their own culpability for massacres they committed against Ottoman muslims.
The Hanchaks an Tashaks were revolutionary groups intent on forming a "Greater Armenia" in southeastern Anatolia after ethnically cleansing the region of Ottoman muslims.
Many historians agree that the Hanchaks and Tashaks used such immoral means as massacring Ottoman muslims and running off into the mountains in the hopes that the Ottoman muslims' reprisals would then invoke Europeans and the U.S. to intervene.
This plan was struck in the 1800s and put into action in earnest during WWI. The end result were mutual massacres by Armenians against Ottoman muslims, and vice versa. None of these massacres was sanctioned by the central Ottoman regime.
Read Pastermadjian's (aka as Armen Garo) words, if you can bear it, in his publication he explains how Armenian revolutionary groups fell for false promises of a homeland made by Russia and France.
As for the dead, that's what happens when you decide to wage war. People die. It is brutal, cruel, inhumane, but that is what war is.
England, France, Russia and the U.S. still conceal archival material about events in southeastern Anatolia during WWI concerning Armenian revolutionary forces.
It is alarming and suspicious that Armenia still refuses access to its archives, and without condemnation by other nations—shockingly, not even by those passing judgment in “genocide proclamations.”
That the Armenian Diaspora uniformly supports concealing Armenia’s archives documenting their history should raise grave concerns.
Beta - Do you support opening the Armenian archives concerning WWI?
I bet I already know your answer....it's fascinating how the Armenian Diaspora has uniform prescripted answers for everything. Who prepares those for you? The Russians? They betrayed your people twice before, what makes you think they won't this third time around?
Lazlee
29 October 2007
beta,
There is another third party source that reports Armenian revolutionary forces planned to massacre Ottoman muslims to provoke reprisal massacres against Armenian villagers to get the west's attention. And this one was an M.P.--but I'm sure you'll call him a liar too, which seems to be the uniform response by those involved in the Armenian genocide industry--
“A widespread Armenian revolutionary conspiracy was therefore organized and subsidised in Russia, and even patronised by the Russian Ambassador at Constantinople. The aims of this most barbarous and wicked plot were made public some time before its denoument. …
A very shrewd and able correspondent of Reuter's Agency, who traveled throughout the Armenian districts of Asia Minor, wrote in March 1894:--The plan of the Armenian revolutionists was to provoke by the atrocities upon Mussulmans such cruelty, atrocity, outrage, butchery that Christian humanity would rise in wrath. It will be the helpless women and children who will suffer most. The revolutionary leaders know that it will be so; in fact, they count upon it as the chief factor in their success.
The same correspondent wrote the remarkable prediction that the 'chief attack will be made in the city of Constantinople itself, and that the brunt of the fighting will be borne by the Armenian residents therein.'
These prophecies, written in March 1894, were literally fulfilled in Sassun in July and August, 1894, and in Constantinople on September 30th, 1895.
…before any real atrocities to any appreciable extent had taken place—cannot be explained merely on the ground of journalistic anxiety to satisfy an unwholesome popular craving. It was the result of a carefully planned and organised propaganda, whose agents were in some cases mercenary, in others innocent through willing victim of deceit. All of the stories and many of the telegrams originally came form the same persons and locality, and from the same organization, viz., from a group of ingenious Armenian conspirators who were mostly inside the Russian frontier, between Karoungan and Tiflis. Some of these conspirators were on Turkish territory in and around Erzeroum itself. …"
Sir Ellis Ashmead Bartlett, M.P., The Battlefields of Thessaly—With Personal Experiences in Turkey and Greece, pp. 30-33 (1897).
http://books.google.com/books?id=5jzkCwoYVCQC&pg=PA31&dq=armenian+revolutionary&num=100&as_brr=1#PPR3,M1
Also, beta, no one pays me to know my own history or to leave these comments. Nor am I motivated, as you and your compatriots are, by delusions of billions of dollars in restitution or land reparations—pray tell, exactly what do the Armenians plan to do with the 20M Turks living in the southeastern 1/3 of Turkey if they somehow get it? We know Armenians hold seminars on “re-integrating” those lands. What do they teach you at those seminars?
MontrealTurk
29 October 2007
I am bemused that Bagarduni blames me for being a paid mouth piece. He is making a fool of himself by insulting me as an ostrich. Most Armenian stories talk about learning about these stories in pre-school held in Church and I believed them. Do not fool yourself that “whole world believes”. Apart from paid propagandists and vote hungry politicians, very few fools have bought YOUR story. In the Ararat movie Gomidas was shown as a confidante, a messenger and at one point he shot some gendarmerie didn’t he? At his tender age, he was certainly one of the strategists to aid the Armenian uprising. He had a sad ending. On April 24, 1915, 245 people in Istanbul were captured for their complicity with Armenian uprising. On April 25, 1915 Allies set foot on Gallipoli. Fierce fighting was going on everywhere in Anatolia. That month, Armenians killed tens of thousands of Turks in Van, Erzurum, Adana, Erzincan, Dort Yol, etc..
I forbid you from referring to any dead person as 'untermensh-miserable-Armenian-dirt'
You show your ignorance about Law 301. It has nothing to do with any race or genocide. It is a one sentence law, against insulting Turkish people – all our citizens. I refuse to read the rest of your idiotic slogans.
MontrealTurk
29 October 2007
There never was intention to kill civilians. At least on the part of the Turks there was none. Dashnak bandits on the other hand, tried to get rid of the Muslims from the 6 cities which they wanted to break away from the Ottoman Empire, so that they could become the majority there. Also, the government or the soldiers had no intention to attack civilian either. The deportees were attacked by Kurdish tribes. Deportation from Harput was halted twice; each time to stop Kurds from attacking the caravans. There was no intention to annihilate Armenians by deporting them. If there was intention to kill them, they would have done so, on the spot. It would have been less troublesome and less costly for Ottoman Government.
The number 1.5 million armenians killed in 1915 is an outright lie. The total number deportees was 700,000 – 800,000. American Council in Aleppo wrote to Henry Morgenthau that 500,000 of them settled in their new destinations. Henry Morgenthau wrote in his diary that he is surprised to hear that Armenians are happily earning their living with the new business they started down South.
We know that a lot of Armenians escaped to Istanbul to dodge deportation. Since the Armenian’ homes were filled with guests, their Turkish friends also helped them host some Armenians running away from the deportation. 290,000 Armenians escaped from the Caucasus on their own will. Those people suffered most due to harsh weather conditions and hunger. We all feel sorry for all of them.
Millions of Turks died while escaping from Russia towards Anatolia. You accept it as war loss, don’t you? What makes the Armenian dead due to a war they started any different? We respect them for being the first Christian nation in the world, but that should not necessitate the Muslim Turks’ dead being treated as unworthy to mention.
Germans apologized for a crime they committed. I have no knowledge of Japanese history, but I know mine. I have everything to be angry about the invasion of my country and my people rendered poor due to their attacks. Will you hold hands with me to commemorate all our fallen and scream NEVER AGAIN!...
Victor
29 October 2007
I have a question? Going back to the original article:
Why does the Turkish government prosecute anyone who dares to talk about the massacres of Armenians?
Mr. Pamuk did not mention it as genoicde - yet he was taken to court. Hrant Dink was less fortunate.
If Turkey is genuine in discussing the issue why does it still have laws 301 and 305. If Turkey is telling the truth why does it need these laws? Does the truth need such draconian protection? - Surely it is a lie which needs protection - because without such protection it will crumble.
If the Turkish government is honest and sincere with its offer of open discussion on the subject why is it strangling any such discussion within its own country?
MontrealTurk
29 October 2007
No one in Turkey is/was prosecuted for talking about genocide or armenian. However, no one can dare speak favorably about Turkey or Turks in the presence of an Armenian in the USA or Canada or Switzerland, and definitely not in the Republic of Armenia. The deep state takes care of the situation..
Even PBS could not air a debate because only two of the participants disagreed with Armenians.
Law 301 is only one sentence. It protects all Turkish citizens from insult.
Hrant Dink who was attacked by the diaspora while he was alive is now being treated like martyr for he is killed by a misguided youth. Dear Dink was not persecuted for free speech. He incited ethnic hatred with his words; “Turks’ poisoned blood can be cleansed by the clean blood of Armenians from Armenia”.
If Armenia is saying the truth why are they evading scholarly debate. Jewish Holocaust was debated openly in Nuremberg Trials. Turksih Government certainly welcomes honest sincere, scholarly debate anywhere in the world. Last I heard there were discussions called WAT. Armenians and Turks were suppose to exchange 50 documents which they did. six months later, they were going to exchange 100 more documents and review the previous documents. The Turkish side arrived in Austria with more documents, but the Armenians announced they were not going to follow through one week after the due date. Austrian judge was dismayed to say the least.
Bagraduni
30 October 2007
Victor I welcome you but have to stop my own postings. You have started well with your very reasonable and brief and to the point questions. However since you are dealing with complete and utter ostriches with their heads deeper and deeper in the sand and their ridiculous bums sticking out for the world to laugh at don’t expect to get any remotely reasonable answers. Don’t expect any humble acceptance of the any obvious facts or plain 2x2=4 logic or reason. One only has to pity at these guys completely closed minds and lack of any sense, compassion or decency….
I have never debated the Armenian Genocide with anyone and was not going to do it with any postings here. Like you I have just pointed out the inconsistencies of the fables drilled into the heads of these poor souls by the Ostrich Historical Society, currently headed by the chief priest of the ostriches, Dr Halacoglu (I think he has a PhD in Ostrichology so he is quite a good expert in ostrich fables.
These guys don’t want to take their head out of the sand even for one second and are completely beyond hope – sorry folks but it’s true! Their heads are in fact so deep in the sand that they can’t even hear the deafening laughter of the whole world at their bare bums sticking out, that is while their heads are deep in the sandy fables (or is it fabulous sands!).
Despite all this I was optimistic about Turkey embracing liberal, democratic and humanist values of European civilisation and eventually joining it perhaps in the next 100 years. However in the last year or so, especially after Hrant Dink’s murder and Turkish behaviour vis-à-vis the Armenian Genocide and more generally have convinced me that Turkey and the Turks have a very long way to go before they can be considered remotely European (or indeed civilised) – at least in terms of its values.
Whereas the racist ideology of Nazism and its criminal authoritarian and totalitarian state were dismantled and destroyed completely fairly quickly (they ruled over Germany and Europe for less than 15 years) the same racist ideology’s Turkish variant has ruled for more than 90 years (from around 1908 and especially after 1923). The thought control there has been almost total. As such it may take much longer, perhaps centuries before the damage that has been done by the racist ideology of Turkism by the Young Turk and the Kemalist/republican states can be undone.
The Ostrich Historical Society, at least from the evidence here (Montréal Turk and Lazee and others) has been very successful in creating identical cloned ostriches.
Unless this is not a representative sample of the whole of Turkey there is no hope for it ever joining Europe.
beta
30 October 2007
I agree with Bagraduni
I implore every dissent individual tol stop dignifying these genocide deniers with replies.
Brainwashed hysteria can never be reasoned with.
Lazlee
30 October 2007
Read Pastermadjian's (aka as Armen Garo) words, if you can bear it.
In his publication he explains how Armenian revolutionary groups fell for false promises of a homeland made by Russia and France... how the Russian military looted Armenian churches storing the personal property of relocated Armenians... how the Russians would not permit Armenians to return to southeastern Anatolia...how England, France & Russia always intended to betray the Ottoman Armenian revolutionary forces as evidenced by the Sykes-Picot Agreement.
Have you read Pastermadjian's words? Have you? Whose head is in the sand? Who can't bear the truth?
How sad that Turks will read the words of WWI Armenian revolutionaries, but the Armenian Diaspora won't.
Charles
30 October 2007
Lest we forget:
"To the Editor of The New York Times:
I have just crossed the ocean with as interesting a company of passengers as could be imagined, nearly all of them planning to do patriotic service in France. Of them all the most remarkable group was a company of 100 young Armenians in the steerage. These men had all given up their positions and possessions in America and were going to France to offer their services to the French Army. As one of them put it:
"We feel that the power that has destroyed our country must be opposed by physical force, and we are prepared to give our lives for the cause of righteousness and liberty."
The last we saw of this band of crusaders was as they marched resolutely away, a French flag at the head of the column, flanked by the Armenian and the American colors. Can even this war offer a more inspiring example of patriotism and self-sacrifice?
FRANCIS ROGERS. A French Port, Oct. 26, 1917.
(Published in The New York Times - November 14, 1917.)"
Andre
30 October 2007
After reading this very informative and factual article, I would assume many of those misled by Armenian lies and propaganda, will start seeing how narrow minded and prejudice they have been. Or am I being too optimistic?
There is overwhelming evidence that thousands of Turks were slaughtered, some of them burnt alive in mosques, by Armenian militias in those days. A number of Armenian historians, the honest ones, would confirm this too. I am not counting the the nearly 30 Turkish diplomats assasinated by the Armenian terrorists in the near past.
Andre
30 October 2007
I have just been reading some of the comments written by the Armenians and cannot stop laughing. They are bunch of idiots who are about the choke on the scum of hatred they feel towrads Turks. It is incredible how people take the incredible allegations made by these morons seriously.
vatan
30 October 2007
I am a Turk, and believe that there was a state-sponsored genocide against the Armenians in 1915. This was a shameful thing that the Ottoman Turks did to the Armenians and there can never be any justification for it. I know very well the proud ego and nationalism that every Turk possesses (including myself). But there are many Turks that can look past their ego and wishful thinking and admit to the truth of the Armenian genocide.
I currently live in the US. Armenians have always been friends of our family. My parents have always told me the stories told to them by their parents, and their parent's parents about what they saw and heard at the time of the killings. My family witnessed the injustices that the Armenians were subjected to at the time. Understanding that this was wrong, my family was able to hide many Armenian families and help them to escape to safety. At the same time, they saw many of their long-time friends disappear too and never be heard of again.
The proud Turks in this forum that are submitting an endless barrage of denialist statements and questions supposedly 'proving' that the genocide was not committed are simply misguided. Admitting such a horrific event would be difficult for anyone from any country. So I can understand their apprehension to accepting the truth that is in front of them.
To the fellow Turks in this forum, you shouldn't accept statements as fact without doing some research first. A lot of the denialist statements are simply gossip -- created by ignorant people that are not willing to accept the facts. When you set out to defame an individual, gossip will always be more damaging and interesting than the actual facts. So when you hear something negative about the Armenians (either about what they said, or did, or planned to do, etc.) verify this information before propagating it and using it as an argument to try to prove your point. And don't rely on Turkish websites and news sources for facts as they are always biased and favour the stroking of the proud Turkish ego.
As for article 301, this is what it states:
1) A person who publicly denigrates Turkishness, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey, shall be punishable by imprisonment of between six months and three years.
2) A person who publicly denigrates the Government of the Republic of Turkey, the judicial institutions of the State, the military or security organizations shall be punishable by imprisonment of between six months and two years.
3) In cases where denigration of Turkishness is committed by a Turkish citizen in another country the punishment shall be increased by one third.
4) Expressions of thought intended to criticize shall not constitute a crime.
Basically, you cannot say anything negative about Turkey or anything Turkish - whether you're inside or outside of the country. How can a country that defines itself as being a democratic state have such a law? This law gags anyone who wants to say anything that goes against the official beliefs of the Turkish state. One of those beliefs is that the Armenian genocide never took place. Debating this issue often initiates a lawsuit and ends in most cases with acquittals for Turks (Orhan Pamuk, Elif Shafak) and suspended sentences for Armenians (Hrank Dink, Arat Dink, Serkis Seropyan). How can these people be charged with a crime for using the word "genocide"? What kind of a "democratic" country is Turkey? By charging these individuals with insulting Turkishness, you are labelling them as "unTurkish" and "traitors" to their own country. In a proud, nationalistic country like Turkey, this often leads to discrimination, ostracism, and hate by the general public. This is what lead to the assassination of Hrank Dink. Hatred toward an "unTurkish" person -- the Turkish government creates an environment where this type of polarity can exist and thrive.
Regarding the decision to postpone the speech by Patriarch Mesrob II Mutafyan (patriarch of Turkish Armenians): There were many Turkish news sources that stated that even the Armenian Patriarch didn't want the Armenian genocide recognition bill in the US to be passed. This was used to make the Turkish public believe that if the Armenian patriarch didn't believe in the merits of the genocide then it couldn't have happened. Could this be any further from the truth? Digging a little deeper, one would realize that Patriarch Mesrob II Mutafyan, patriarch of Turkish Armenians, is also a Turkish citizen. Being a Turkish citizen, he is bound by Article 301, when speaking about Armenian issues in Turkey, the US, and anywhere else in the world. He knows well that by supporting the Armenian genocide he would be prosecuted by Turkey upon returning home. And Turkey having no shame would go through with this. Therefore, you can easily figure out that by protesting against this speech, the Armenian diaspora in the US relinquished the patriarch from alienating Armenians around the world with the thoughts and words imposed onto him by the Turkish government.
Regarding why no mass graves have been discovered in Turkey: Well they have been uncovered, but the news is almost always suppressed by the Turkish government. For example, on 17 October 2006, villagers from Xirabebaba (Kuru) in south eastern Turkey came across a mass grave when digging a grave for one of their deceased. The villagers took pictures of the skulls and bones in the mass grave before Turkish military came and blocked the site. The military personnel forbade the villagers to tell anyone about the site and then closed it. But some of the villagers told the story to a local newspaper. As soon as the military learned that someone had leaked the information to the press, they pressed the villagers to give the names of those responsible for this. Since then, journalists trying to get near the mass grave have been denied access by the military. About 300 individuals were found in the grave. It was assumed that these were the Armenian and Syriac males from the adjacent town of Dara (Oguz) who had been slaughtered in 1915.
So, why do you not hear news about mass graves or other proof of the genocide having been committed? Quite simply... because the Turkish government goes out of its way to hide, suppress, and make it difficult to reveal the information. I couldn't imagine what happened to the individual(s) who released that information to the press.
Regarding the claim that the Armenians were armed and attempting to take over the country for themselves: This is a very weak argument for condoning genocide. Whether the Armenians were armed or not is not important. The Turks could have declared war on the Armenians and fought those who were willing to fight. In the end, the Armenians would have lost due to their lack of military training and low numbers. However, the government at the time declared ALL Armenians as a threat to them and ordered their "relocation" which actually translated to genocide. So by removing all Armenians, old and young, and having them suddenly disappear, is defined as genocide. On the contrary, having a bunch of Armenians fight back in whatever way they could to defend themselves, and in the process killing a bunch of Turks, is not genocide. See the difference?
Regarding WATS (Workshop for Armenian / Turkish Scholarship): This group has met in 2000/Chicago, 2002/Michigan, 2004/Minnesota, 2005/Salzburg, and 2006/New York to discuss Armenian and Turkish issues, and is still going strong.
Regarding more research and discussion into the Armenian genocide: There is no more need. This issue has been researched and discussed over and over again since the trial in Turkey against individuals from the Young Turks party. There has been an international consensus on defining what occurred as genocide over and over again. Those who have concluded and found "proof" of a genocide not taking place have been individuals being financially compensated for their "findings" and "contributions". Before accepting the words of a "scholar", look into whether they are on Turkey's payroll.
The undeniable fact is that, even if we were to have a hundred trials and verdicts labelling the events of 1915 as genocide, Turkey would never accept this fact (even though the Prime Minister has said the government would accept the conclusion without question). The Turkish government will always press for more research and more discussion until the verdict comes back as "no genocide took place". This form of "research" is insincere and unproductive.
I am proud of my Turkish identity, and I am proud of what my country has been able to create since being established. However, I am disappointed in the shameless denial that my government takes part in. Admitting to the truth can only make Turkey stronger and more credible.
For what it's worth, I whole-heartedly apologize for the genocide committed against the Armenians. May the souls of those who lost their lives, both Armenian and Turk, rest in peace.
vatan
30 October 2007
No one denies killings, murders, assassinations, and rapes on either side. Just as Turks were burned alive in mosques, Armenians were burned alive in barns.
This however does not justify a state-sponsored genocide against the Armenians. It is the ultimate wrong. If you cannot realize this, then you need to learn the value of human life.
A Turk's life is no more valuable than an Armenian's life. All loss of life during this period was needless and sad.
Andre
30 October 2007
To the one who calls himself "Vatan"
You did not need all that pathetic rhetoric above to show your true colors. You admit yourself that Armenians killed Turks in masses. But for you, when Turks kill Armenians, who shed the first blood, it is a genocide. But not the other way around. A texbook example for double standards. It is obvious that for you an Armenian life is more valuable than a Turk's. I wonder why that is.
vatan
30 October 2007
Andre, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what constitutes a genocide. Killing x number of people does not equate to a genocide. But planning to kill an entire race of people (ie. Armenians in Turkey) is a genocide.
Let me give you another example, maybe you'll be able to process it easier without all the emotional baggage. Suppose that the US government planned to kill all the Mexicans in the country by rounding them up and shooting them -- this would be a genocide -- killing an entire race. Now, suppose that some Mexicans started killing Americans as self-defence -- this would not be genocide.
But, just to humor you, let's use your logic that because Armenians killed Turks "in masses" that they were really planning to purge the region of all Turks, a genocide by your definition. Ok, now prove your argument. I don't think you'll be able to find one credible person in the world to support your argument that the Armenians committed genocide on the Turks. This argument is absurd and shows how naive you really are.
vatan
30 October 2007
I think all life is equally as valuable and precious. There is never a justification for ending someone's life -- killing.
If you think I'm taking sides, then that's your misinterpretation of my words. I'm always on the side of the truth - even if that means I have to admit that my people were wrong for what they did.
Andre
30 October 2007
Mr Vatanian,
Your argument is just as confused as your identitiy. More your try to come up with a credible argument, the more you contradict yourself. Obviously you will have to develop your skills so you can put across a better argument next time. According to you the Mexicans are Armenians and the American are Turks or the other way around and they kill each other but in the meanwhile, for one of them it is systematic but for the other it is self defence. And for you, the Armenians did not kill systematically but the Turks did, because this what they told you when they were washing your brain. Have you ever asked your masters how many centuries the Turks and the Armenains lived side by side? Since you are so well equipped about the issue, you must surely know why the whole thing started. Did your research the historical reality of the time when the Armenians collobrated with the French and the Russians to stab the Turks in the back. Let us say that like many other nations, they wanted to gain independence, they gambled but lost. This I can understand. What I cannot understand what kind of human beings can in cold blood kill innocent women, children, and old men, (since the young Turkish men were busy fighting the Russians in the eastern front) burning them alive in mosques only becuase they are Turkish and would get in the way of the dream for independence. Not systematic? 500,000 Turks were slaughtered by Armenians and the mass graves of those can still be found in Erzurum and its region. Oh by the way, for you this is not a genocide. Perhaps because they were Muslims? What do you say? Is that so? But when the Turkish soldiers came back from the eastern front and discovered that their wives, children, mothers, fathers were killed by the Armenians. Guess what they did? They reacted like any human being would do, including yourself. For your this is a genocide. The year was 1915 and the only authoritty in the crumbling Ottoman Empire was those very solidiers whose loved ones were killed by Armenians. Still, the hundreds of thousands of the Armenians were deported ffor their own safety as well as the remaining Turks and many of them died on the way due to diseases and attacks by brigands etc. Now for you, one of them is systematic and the other one is not. Armenians killed more systematically than the Turks, because they planned the fight for independence and for them the fight was against civilans, women and children. Sometimes, the truth can be difficult to accept but it is about the time you and your Armenian friends looked in the mirror and came clean. Or perhaps the tone is genocide and the other isn't simply becuase one group is Muslim and the other is Christian. Give me a break and stop kidding yourselves with ridiculous bull like Mexicans killing Americans and Americans jumping on their graves rubbish.
how inferiror a group of people can be tAnd then they kille each otherMexicans kill American women and children, burning them alive in mosques, as you accepted earlier, so that they can gain independence. American men, (Turks for you) in the meanwhile are fighting against Cubans, (Russians for you) away from their homes. But when Cubans (Russians) puul back, the American soldiers (Turkish soldiers) come home to find that their wifes, mothers, children are slughtered by their Armenian (Mexican for you) neighbour with whom they lived peacfully side by side for decades and centuries. For you this is not a genocide. Never mind the 500,000 Turkish lives. After all they are not even Christians. Never mind the mass graves in Erzurum. The graves of Turks killed by Armenians. What should the Americans (Turks) do?.
vatan
30 October 2007
For clarification, I am not a Mr -- I am a Miss. Vatan is a Turkish word meaning motherland. I am a Turk, and therefore a Muslim.
Your response is a typically emotional one, and therefore, biased. Your attack towards me shows how little tolerance everyday Turks have towards a dissenting argument as to the events of 1915. Just because I don't agree with your emotional and non-factual arguments, you brand me as an Armenian. Shame on you for being so narrow-minded.
Andre
30 October 2007
Miss Motherland,
For clarification, not every Turk is a Muslim.
My response is emotional and yours is objective. I am biased and and your are unbiased. And yo're so sure that I am a Turk too. Who else would stand up for the Turks, other than the Turks themselves? Nice one..This also is a revealing assumption. You may just be a naive person who is not very well informed about the subject. You may also a be a Turk, just like many Jews who collobrated with the Nazis for taking their own people to the concentration camps. I am not a Turk. But if you are, the shame will be on you for betraying your own people. Doesn't matter how far away your are, the spirits of your ancestors killed by the Armenians may still haunt you.
aguylikeanyother
31 October 2007
Please stop comparing the Holocaust of WWII to the Genocide of WWI. Please stop making blanketing accusations about one side or the other. This degrades the decent memory of every innocent that lost their life in both of the "Great Wars".
I ask this of you all for concrete reasons. The first, is that when any of you make these sweeping generalizations, you blast enormous gaps in your own credibility. For instance, when a comment like "If the Turks were systematically cleansing Armenians out of the Ottoman empire, why were they still allowed to hold office in the Turkish government?" or "The separatist traitors got what they deserved for helping the Russians come in and try to destroy Turkey" pepper your arguement, it's open ended.
The logical query that follows is, "If the Turks knew that the Armenian people wanted to subvert the empire, why have a dangerous terrorist in office? Wouldn't that suggest that not all Armenians agreed on attacking Muslims and Turks (because not all Turks are Muslim and vice versa)?" Or similarly, "If the Ottomans planned to solve the Armenian problem, why would any Armenian run for office in Istanbul? Morover, why would an Ottoman allow an Armo to hold influence, position or title over an Ottoman? Wouldn't that suggest that not all Turks were out for Armenian or Christian blood (because not all Armenians are Christian and vice versa)?"
Secondly, the Holocaust in WWII systematicaly stripped every Jew, regardless of ethnicity, of their possesions, professions, and rights years before the first roomful of scared, starved and naked Jews were gassed to death, after their oppressors robbed them of their identity, only to be known as a number on their arm. This act being a sin upon a victim, keeping them from joining their loved ones in God's glory, as a practicing Jew is forbidden from bearing tatoos. Further more, the Holocaust was wrought on a nomadic people with no "motherland" being fought over. No conflict of identity exploited by desperate military leaders of foreign nations, eager to open a second front behind enemy lines. The Jews were an unfortunate scape-goat, with no standing army to defend them, or elected officials to speak for them.
If you want to compare tragedies, let's make the correct comparison. The Holocaust was perpetrated by the Nazis. The Genocide was the Ottoman empire. The common threads? Obviously, World War. Obviously, every country involved counted civilian casualties from malicious enemy soldiers brutalized by wars the scope the world had never faced. and apparently not so obvious, both regimes are gone.
Let's face whats left. On both sides, there were extreme idealists, that for reasons we can never truly understand (as they are all long dead), sought to slake their blood lust on innocent victims. And on both sides, decent men that sacrificed their lives to defend the innocence of the future. We are their future. They gave their lives to stop the bloodshed, and let reason reign victorious. And on both sides, there were and still are voices of reason calling out from "behind enemy lines", appealing to all ex-pats to not let the sins of the father damn the son forever.
Who is this person to judge? Who here is casting stones...
I am a Canadian. Even here in the true north, stong and free, we have the sins of our fathers to bear. I will never say that we or any other people for that matter have nothing to hide. We slaughtered entire nations of Natives in our past, and that is a stain on our identity that will never be forgotten. I'm not proud of this, or other sins of intolerance carried out by scared masses, like the WWII "relocation camps" in BC for Japanese Canadians, filled with anybody with almond shaped eyes and black hair. We are not those Canadians today, anymore than Turks today are the same Ottomans of 1915, or Armo's the same Armenian seperatists of 1915. All the same, we must, and will continue to bear these tainted attrocities on our nationality, just as we will trumpet our accomplishments as badges of honor of our nationality.
So please, let the millions of Holocaust victims be.
What happened in 1915 is your, and yours alone. There is no need to cheapen it with comparrison.
Lazlee
31 October 2007
"Regarding more research and discussion into the Armenian genocide: There is no more need. "
Ms. Motherland, this is the indoctrinated Armenian response.
The Armenians archives concerning these events remain concealed, as do those of the Russians, British, French and U.S.
What modern jurisprudence allows convicting a nation or person of a heinous crime with MORE THAN HALF THE EVIDENCE CONCEALED? You complain about 301, but would readily convict an entire nation of a crime against humanity with the majority of the evidence concealed. That is a primitive and outdated notion of justice unacceptable to civilized nations.
"What kind of a "democratic" country is Turkey? "
What kind of democratic country is France or Switzerland that criminalize/make it illegal to dispute a legal conclusion reached concerning an event where the vast majority of evidence is ACTIVELY CONCEALED?
Is this a search for the truth? Or, is it a desire to use illegitimate means to coerce Turkey into handing over land to Armenians they could not obtain through open war fare?
"However, the government at the time declared ALL Armenians as a threat to them and ordered their "relocation" which actually translated to genocide. So by removing all Armenians, old and young, and having them suddenly disappear, is defined as genocide."
Your facts are grossly INACCURATE. Only Armenians living in the southeastern region of Anatolia, where Armenian revolutionary forces were aiding the Russians to defeat the Ottoman Empire, were relocated.
Setting aside the fact that modern civilized jurisprudence does not permit application of ex posto facto laws (laws passed after the fact), please cite a legal source that states this as the proper legal definition of genocide: "their "relocation" which actually translated to genocide." It’s likely you will be hard pressed to find anything other than an ANCA or AAA sponsored FAQ to support your definition of genocide.
The issue is, and continues to be, whether the Ottoman regime INTENDED to exterminate Armenians in SE Anatolia. To date, no such evidence has been uncovered- other than the infamous forgeries by Andonian which have universally been discredited by all historians who are not Armenian.
"Regarding the claim that the Armenians were armed and attempting to take over the country for themselves: This is a very weak argument for condoning genocide. Whether the Armenians were armed or not is not important. Turks could have declared war on the Armenians and fought those who were willing to fight.."
Whether Armenians were armed is of the UTMOST importance. There is something in law called "justified defense." If you bother to read works published by Armenian Revolutionary leaders before the Diaspora cooked up their genocide claims, you will see that they universally admit that they were armed and aiding the Russians to defeat the Ottoman Empire in an effort to ethnically cleanse SE Anatolia and form a "greater Armenia" there.
And how, in the heat of war, were the Ottomans supposed to determine who was "willing to fight." Do you have any notions of logistics? And what if those "willing to fight" were engaged in guerilla tactics and answered the question by lying and saying "no"? What then?
How ironic that you suggest the Ottomans should have declared war against the Armenians and fought those who were "willing to fight." Rather than waging war against their own citizens, the Ottomans took the least destructive means within the power of the crumbling empire and decided to relocate people.
There is no dispute that during relocations Armenians suffered horrific and terrible injustices-however, these were not state sponsored/sanctioned/ordered and were a direct result of the Empire's inability to cope with the situation imposed upon it by the war that was then being waged against it by the Allies and the internal Armenian insurrections supported by Russia and France.
No one disputes the Ottoman regime failed to protect citizens within its territory. However, the inability to protect people is NO basis for concluding the Ottoman regime intentionally and purposefully decided to exterminate an entire race of people, which is what the label genocide means.
Miss Motherland, you are indisputably an Armenian. Every argument you present is the same as that presented by diaspora Armenians indoctrinated by ANCA and the AAA.
The only ethnic group I have ever run across who proudly claim that there is no need for disclosing historical archives that reveal their history are Armenians. Most people are proud of their history and want to know more about it, not less.
The desire to remain ignorant of their history is a phenomenon unique to the Armenian diaspora.
aguylikeanyother
01 November 2007
As I learn more and more about the Genocide/relocation of 1915, I find certain questions harder to answer than others. I'd like a little clarification from both sides if anybody has answers.
1.) There is no paper trail of "direct" orders to kill every man, woman and child of Armenian descent in SE Anatolia from the time, but is there documentation of "direct" orders to relocate said people? I ask because what's never mentioned is where these masses of Armenians were supposed to be relocated to other than Syrian desert (somewhere), or just plainly "away from here". Where was the end destination supposed to be?
2.) Where were the majority of the Armenian minority living at the time? Were they mostly residents of SE Anatolia, with small households scattered through out the rest of the region? Or were they more evenly or randomly divided through out the territory building upto WWI? Surely there had to be records, for taxation or cencus purposes.
3.) Were there any number of Armenians enlisted in the military of the Ottomans? WWI didn't just happen out of the blue, and the Ottomans hadn't been without opponents before the Germans came-a-callin' in 1914. Surely, there had to be Armenians in the Ottoman army, after all, they were defacto Ottomans too, at the time.
4. ) It would appear that allies of both sides had at the very least a vauge idea of what was happening in 1915. And the more I read and hear, it seems that both sides had more than a little "encouragement" from "friends", that wound up dropping them like a hot potato when the body count started to climb. Not to mention the stratigic benefits of domestic unrest (that would have been labeled a civil war if not for the World War that was already going on) that opens a second front line inside enemy borders. Is there any blood on the hands of war time allies that could have or did play a role in this tragedy?
Lazlee
01 November 2007
aguylikeanyother,
1) Yes, there are direct orders to relocate. The first one issued in May 1915. A few others issued after that, then after a time, orders to stop all relocation efforts were issued. The orders had specific instructions in them and all of that is discussed in detail in Guenter Lewy's book. I recommend it to you if you're interested in more specifics.
2) There were large populations of Armenians in Istanbul and Izmir. Outside of that they were scattered throughout the southeastern portion of Anatolia. Records were kept for taxation purposes by the Ottomans. They record 1.29M Armenians in the entire Ottoman Empire during 1914.
3) There were Ottoman Armenians in the Ottoman military. However, when the Armenian revolutionaries began their guerrilla movement in earnest and openly joined the Russian army, Ottoman Armenians in the Ottoman military were removed from posts that required use of the weapons for obvious reasons. However, the vast majority of Ottoman Armenians joined the Russian army. According to one Armenian revolutionary leaders (Pastermadjian), 160,000 Armenians fought under Russian commands against the Ottoman Empire.
4) The Allies had more than a vague idea because they were the ones who masterminded all of the nationalist movements by the Christian peoples living in the Ottoman Empire. Those nationalist movements were just one of the Allies' strategy for crushing the Ottoman Empire, and it worked. During WWI, the Allies strategy required the Ottomans to not only fight the Allies, but their own people. There wasn't just war fronts at the borders of the Ottoman Empire, but also within it.
Is there any blood on the hands of war time allies? Absolutely. England stays rather quiet on this subject, but during WWI they engaged in a deliberate disinformation campaign that was intended to encourage the U.S. to join WWI. A special favorite piece of disinformation involved massacres of Christian people by muslims--the Brits thought that if American Christians thought "barbarian" muslims were massacring all Christians in the middle east that the U.S. would thereby be immediately incited to join WWI to save those Christians. All of that "fiction" is not compiled in a Blue Book and publications by Toynbee. These are the materials Armenians rely upon for their claims. So you could say, in a very real sense, that the European powers that architected this entire debacle are still actively participating in it. Do you hear the Brits shouting out for all the world to know that the Blue Book and Toynbee's publications were war time propaganda and do not accurately reflect events of WWI? No.
Why do you think it's a criminal offense in France to dispute that an armenian genocide occurred? Why do you think that Russia, France, England and the U.S. continue to conceal archives related to these events from the public? How could releasing archives from 100 years ago compromise national security now? All of these countries hands are bloody and they don't want anyone to see--Russia and France are the ones with the most culpability.
Many of the issues that drove events in WWI are coming back around now. WWI was really designed to seize control of all the oil fields in the middle east from the Ottoman Empire and put it effectively under western european control (see for example, the Sykes-Picot Agreement--which shows that the Allies never intended to form a greater Armenia in southeastern Anatolia like they promised the Armenians).
In fact the battle for control over the oil fields continues to this day and is especially active in Iraq...and who controls most of the transportation of that oil? Turkey.
Lazlee
01 November 2007
Correction: All of that "fiction" is **now** compiled in a Blue Book and publications by Toynbee.
MontrealTurk
01 November 2007
To AGuyLikeAnyOther:
Lazlee summed it up nicely. Detailed answers can be found at http://www.tbmm.gov.tr/yayinlar/yayin1/6-Halacoglu(109-142).pdf
In case you can’t reach there I can write brief answers here:
Millions of papers with the order to relocate are available, because they were sent o every mayor, every township, every army commander, and anyone involved. Up to two weeks time was given to Armenians to collect their belongings. Protestant and Catholic Armenians were excluded at first. Doctors and their families remained in their homes, some other professions and cities were not touched either. Majority lived in the capital Istanbul and Iznik – and they were not touched. We know a lot escaped into Istanbul. Armenian houses and their Muslim friends’ houses were filled with other Armenians who made their way from Anatolia to evade deportation.
If any deportee’s item was offered for sale below market price, government intervened on the Armenians' behalf. items they wished to leave behind, were recorded in government books to be returned to their owners when they returned from ‘exile’. At firs they were ordered to be settled in Central Anatolia. However unrest destroyed Central Anatolia too. So, they were rerouted to Halep and further down towards what has now become Syria. It is not lush green, but it is not desert land. They were given land and money in some cases to restart new business in their new locations.
In the town that I was born which is Kayseri - smack in the middle of Anatolia, basements of houses had turned into ammunition depots. I have heard stories, how little girls saw young Armenian men removed huge floor slabs and entered into darkness carrying heavy boxes. Her dad reported to the police forces, and they discovered many ammunition depots like that. Little kids who were playing in the haystack overheard two Armenian men discussing their plan to set afire the Mosque during Friday prayer. Going to mosque on Friday is similar to going to Church on Sunday. The kids told their dad, so the crowd was sawed. There are many stories of how Armenians burned houses where Muslims had hidden. One Armenian doctor neatly carved body parts and stacked them neatly as if to save space. Many took pleasure in killing Muslims.
Ottoman Government held census for taxation purposes. So, there are records of how many people lived in which town from 16th century onward broken down by religion. The head of census bureau was a Jewish citizen named Fethi Franko until 1903, then an Armenian named Migirdich Sinopian until 1908. An American was assigned to the post following him. In 1914, their total reached 1.3 million. Your next question must be ‘How can more than the existing number of Armenians disappear?’
The orders did not state so-and-so should be relocated to this city or that town. It only gave broad instructions. They said spread them around in towns / cities where there is not a major concentration of Armenian presence. Then revolt broke out in towns which were unexpected, so they changed the orders to relocate all Armenians from Anatolia down South. To begin with Armenians were clearly in the minority in all towns they lived. They were 16% of total population in the six cities that they wanted to declare their independence in. Their percentage was highest in the city of Van, and even that was 34%. That is why they could not declare their independence as easy as the Greeks for instance. When they did not mix, Armenian villages were scattered among Muslims’, because they were so close culturally and friendly. Obviously, the opportunity to separate from Ottoman government presented itself to the Armenians at a time when relations between the two people were still friendly. The revolutionary bandits who were indoctrinated with Marxist ideals had to first kill the Armenians who did not want to kill Muslims. Then they started to kill Muslims together with the men that they collected on their ranks out of fear (similar to the case of PKK).
Non-Muslims could dodge the army by paying a fee. Most chose this method. In the dying years of the empire army duty was extended to 5 years. It took longer at wartime, which happened to be the case in early 1900s. So, the Muslims became poor and Christians bought their land for little money. Armenians and Jews held the trade from Aegean coast of Izmir to Baghdat – the silk road. When Talat Pasha and Enver Pasha took power, they changed the rules and made it mandatory for other religions to participate in war and join the army or pay increased fee. I recommend you read Prof. Dr. Justin McCarthy, Esat Uras, et al, “Van Rebellion”. The first war in which Christians were called to wear arms was the terrible defeat of SariKhamish (22/12/1914 – 15/01/1915) where almost all of the Turkish soldiers died. Most Armenians deserted, some used their weapons against the Turks, and a lot joined the Russian army. Even the civilian Armenians forbid giving bread to these dying soldiers. So, the Armenians’ weapons were taken from them and they were assigned to dig trenches. When Russian army advanced into Anatolia, Russian Armenian families came and settled in Eastern Anatolia, and when they retreated some returned back into Russia. Muslims did the same; people swayed back and forth in search of security for many years.
Head of Armenian delegation Boghos Nubar boasted in 1918 that 150,000 Armenian men fought in Russian Army, 45,000 wearing French uniforms, and 30,000 elsewhere fought on the side of the entente. This makes a total of 225,000, which is a lot considering total population of 1.3 million Armenians living all over, including Istanbul. All foreign powers were involved in sharing the carcass of the dying Ottoman Empire. They used ethnic strife. They still do!.
MontrealTurk
01 November 2007
I am yet to hear a reasonable explanation from the Armenian side. They argue with hype and hysteria but never seem to rationalize. They are good at hurling personal insults at the scientist who disagree with their God sent decree that it was the g- thing. They threaten, put on a good tantrum, and at times invent forgeries.
Example 1: Someone named Andonian wrote a book where he published pictures of telegrams attributed to Talat Pasha as if he had written orders to kill Armenians. Later it was proven that he had made forgeries. Dates were wrong, signature of a mayor who was not holding office at the time was used, writing style did not conform, it was written on paper used in French schools and not in Ottoman government offices, etc. Also, these papers were not used as evidence at the trial of Soghomon Tehlirian who assassinated Talat Pasha. Obviously, Armenians knew it was fake.
Example 2: During Nuremberg Trials, a crumbled paper was secretly left on the attorney’s desk containing the infamous words attributed to Hitler as “Who remembers…” Upon close examination it was not used as valid evidence, because the attorney had obtained official write up of the said meeting from three sources which did not contain such words. Also, Hitler’s words were added with a different colored pen into the crumbled paper. The news that “new document discovered with Hitler’s xxx words” was published in a newspaper the next morning. Most people suspect that he was the secret person, who left the paper there, because nobody else knew about the filed but unsubstantiated ‘evidence’.
Example 3: Armenians presented as evidence the photo of a heap of skulls as if it belonged to Armenians killed by Turks in 1915. Years later, it was discovered by Turkish scientists, that it was a painting of Vasily Vereschagin done in 1856? Named Apotheses to War. The tableau still hangs in a museum in Russia.
Armenians know their stories do not hold water. Why else would they apply such falsifications?
MontrealTurk
01 November 2007
If anyone cares to read the atrocities committed on Turks by Armenians, please refer to the book named "I witnessed and Lived Through" where a Russian General clearly wrote in his memoirs. It is at the link http://www.tsk.mil.tr/eng/index.htm
The second book named issues missed in the 1915 Armenian debate is also recommendable.
MontrealTurk
01 November 2007
Go directly if you can to the following link
http://www.tsk.mil.tr/eng/ermeni_sorunu_salonu/armenianissues_index.htm
vatan
02 November 2007
MontrealTurk: The fact that you exclusively refer to Turkish websites and news sources proves that you present a biased argument. You have made up your conclusions and only accept "proof" that supports those conclusions.
MontrealTurk
02 November 2007
Dear Vatan / Taner Akcam:
I have replaced the word Turk in your message with its proper owner to make it a true statement.
"To the fellow Armenians in this forum, you shouldn't accept statements as fact without doing some research first. A lot of the allegations are simply gossip -- created by ignorant people that are not willing to accept the facts. When you set out to defame an individual, gossip will always be more damaging and interesting than the actual facts. So when you hear something negative about the Turks (either about what they said, or did, or planned to do, etc.) verify this information before propagating it and using it as an argument to try to prove your point. And don't rely on Armenian websites and news sources for facts as they are always biased to seek vengeance."
Hrant Dink caused ethnic strife with his words “Turks poisoned blood can be cleansed with clean blood of Armenians from Armenia”, not because he uttered the “g” word. Every country has laws protecting their citizens and republican symbols from insult. Armenians should stop burning Turkish flags.
vatan
02 November 2007
Your argument is petty, flawed, and juvenile.
MontrealTurk
02 November 2007
Dear Vatan:
I return your insults. Obviously, your false theories are not strong enough to cover up the true facts listed here. Why else, would you retort to name calling?
vatan
02 November 2007
Read more carefully please. I called your argument petty, flawed, and juvenile, not you.
Referring to only one source for information and dismissing everything else makes you look desperate.
Victor
03 November 2007
So let me get this straight:
1. Any Turkish Citizen or historian who says that what happened was Genocide is wrong and is a traitor.
2.The missionary eyewitnesses were lying about what was happening because they were Christian. Even though Turkey is now a secular country (and incidently Armenian and Greek churches have now been banned from opening seminaries in Turkey)
3. Morganthaus version of events is a lie becaue he was an American Jew and a propogantist. Even though the US was neutral at the time, is now Turkeys ally as is Israel.
4. The German reports sent back to Germany about the massacres and are in their archives - actually don'y exist - even though the German government formally apologised a few years ago for not having intervened in the massacres at the timeof the Genocide based on these archives.
5. British Archives are not open, but The Blue Book is fictional and propoganda even though the present British governments refuses to retract any of the facts and reiterates the factual basis of the report.
6. PC 301 and 305 are needed to protect Turks from themselves - because they are the ones getting prosecuted and 'Turkishness' is so frail/fragile that it needs protecting.
7. The massacre of 2-300,000 Assyrians occured at the time because...... let me guess they were planning a revolution and nothing to do with the the young turks vision of a pure Turkish state.
8. The Greeks were killed - well because they were Greeks.
9. The Jews had to be evacuated by Morganthauu because..... maybe just because they were Jews not because they were in danger or anything like that.
10. Raphael Lemkin did not know what he was talking about even though he coined the term Genocide and began his whole crusade because of what he says happened to the Armenians. He was wrong about the Armenian Genocide, but was right about the Jewish one.
11. The International Association of Genocide scholars numbering well over a hundred, who specialise in Genocide and are impartial are wrong, but the few 'historians' named in the above article, which include a philospoher and a retired lieutenant who now teaches high school are more qualified because they agree with the Turkish version.
12......13.....
To be honest I could go on and on. The only reason I have posted two comments is to see how far and how fanatical the reponses will be and how illogical the arguments get. It is sad especially when I read Turkish newspapers and see that even Turkish journalists are open to listening to what actually happened and would like complete freedom of speech to discuss the subject openly in their own counrtry.
Victor
03 November 2007
OH I forgot to say. Hrant Dink was prosecuted and sentenced for saying what happened was Genocide, not sure where some of you are getting your information from. You can refer to Daily Turkish News Archives, Zaman archives, BBC news Archives etc. His son and co editor were prosecuted and sentenced for reprinting the same article. Pamuk was taken to court, but the case was dropped because of international pressure as well as internal freedom of speech advocates. For everyones info he is a great writer has earned millions and I don't think he needs any favours/money from Armenians or Kurds. Why exactly did he risk his life/livelihood/homeland to say what he did?
Instead of spending/wasting time on this site trying to defend the undefendable some of you should be campaigning for complete freedom of speech in Turkey - then the actual truth can and will show itself whatever it may be.
Lazlee
03 November 2007
Victor,
So let me get this straight:
1) You're Armenian.
2) You livein the diaspora.
3) You've been shown pictures of dead people since you were a small child and told they were killed by Turks.
4) You have a deep seated hatred for all things Turkish and Turks.
5) You believe the Andonian forgeries are authentic.
6) You believe everything published by every government is the god-given truth.
7) You know that Armenia refuses to disclose its historical archives concerning these issues.
8) You approve of concealing Armenian archives concerning events giving rise to genocide claims.
9) You know that it is illegal to possess a copy of Katchzanouni's Manifesto (in which he proclaims the Ottomans were justified in doing what they did because they knew what the Armenian revolutionaries' goals were).
10) You approve of this restriction in freedom of speech and thought in Armenia.
11) You've probably never read any of the works published by Pastermadjian (Ottoman parliament member immediately before WWI) in which he admits hundreds of thousands of Armenians fought with Russia against the Ottoman Empire.
12) You never intend to read anything contrary to that with which you've been indoctrinated.
13) You cite no authority in support of what you write, because you have none.
I could go on and on and on...
Lazlee
03 November 2007
Correction:
9) You know that it is illegal to possess a copy of Katchzanouni's Manifesto **in Armenia** (in which he proclaims the Ottomans were justified in doing what they did because they knew what the Armenian revolutionaries' goals were).
and let's add this
14) You know that the one and only Turkish citizen (a Ph.D. student at Duke University in America) Armenia granted access to its archives was arrested as he was leaving Armenia, imprisoned for months without charge, all his research confiscated, and was eventually convicted of taking books out of the country that he purchased at used book stores.
15) You know this law has never been enforced against anyone else in the manner, but approve because it was enforced like this against a Turk.
and still, I could go on and on and on...
MontrealTurk
03 November 2007
Victor:
Orhan Pamuk earned the millions for saying the g-word. the Diaspora did not have to spend a dime form their pockets. They took Nobel money, and gave it to Orhan. Before Armenians made him famous. Orhan Pamuk lived in his dad's apartment. So, stop saying that he did not need money from Armenians etc.. He did it exactly for the money.
I assume you do not read AGOS. If you dd you would know about Hrant Dink's words; "Turks' poisoned blood can be cleansed with the blood of Armenians from Armenia". All Turkish newspapers publicized the event during court trials. At the time Armenians Diaspora was busy attacking Hrant for not being Armenian enough. They are using his death.
Pierre
04 November 2007
This whole blog is insane, There is genocide taking place as we write, The Palestinian jews are the new Turks.
MontrealTurk
04 November 2007
Dear Pierre;
It is surprising no resolution is submitted for the recent genocide the Armenians perpetrated on Azeri Turks.
Everyone is up in arms trying to rename a civil war which took place almost a century ago. Could it be religious bias - Christians ganging up against Muslims?
I noticed that only Muslims are accused of genocide. Whatever the France does to Algerians is dirt under the carpet. Whatever the Americans do to anyone is in the name of bringing democracy and peace.
One thing is clear our governments should keep their noses clean of embezzlement. Once they divert from the good of common people, they are easily be brought down on their knees and destruction sets on whole civilizations.
vatan
05 November 2007
MontrealTurk:
If you think the Armenians perpetrated genocide on Azeri Turks, then you obviously do not know what the definition of genocide is.
It's amusing (and sad) that you would classify even one dead Turk as genocide, but 1.5 million dead Armenians as a consequence of civil war.
And, even though it's quite obvious, I'll still say it: Germany was accused and found guilty of genocide -- the Nazis were not Muslims. So that disproves your "only Muslims are accused of genocide" observation.
Lazlee
06 November 2007
vatan,
Herein lies only one of the problems with Armenian claims: "Germany was accused and found guilty of genocide."
Somewhat correct. A country is not the accused in a genocide trial, individuals are. Individual German military officers responsible for perpetrating the holocaust against Jews were tried and convicted during the famous Nuremburg trials.
No Ottoman military official was ever convicted of war crimes, other than those convicted in the kangaroo courts in Istanbul immediately after WWI that were DISAVOWED by the British as a mockery of justice and merely convicting officials for the sake of convicting them.
No Ottoman official was ever convicted of war crimes outside of that, BUT there were several who were summarily executed in the middle of the street by various Armenians after the war.
The Muslim/Christian distinction is that it seems that Christians such as the Germans are only convicted of crimes against humanity after a full trial with all evidence submitted.
Muslims on the other hand need only be accused and the conviction is complete, even when the accusers actively CONCEAL HALF OF THE EVIDENCE.
I find it a mockery of the whole notion of justice that not a single Armenian has said one word in support of opening the Armenian archives.
What are you hiding? The fact that the Russians promised the Armenian revolutionary forces they could ethnically cleanse the southeastern 1/3 of Anatolia of all Ottoman muslims once it was conquered? That Ottoman Armenians dressed in Russian military uniforms killed hundreds of thousands of Ottoman muslims?
Come on, tell everybody what the Armenians are hiding...
"but 1.5 million dead Armenians as a consequence of civil war"
Also, vatan, you seem to be confused, the number of dead doesn't make it a genocide--this is how many of the so-called Armenian "historians" analyze the issue: "there's lots of dead, ergo, it was genocide." Genocide is a legal conclusion that requires evidence of a number of elements, which has been lacking to date.
vatan
06 November 2007
My point was that MontrealTurk was quick to classify what happened to the Azeri Turks as genocide.
You're correct about numbers not being important when coming to a genocide conclusion -- but rather fulfilling the definition of genocide [The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.] -- which I don't think he satisfied. I hope you don't actually believe that Armenia planned to kill every Azeri Turk in Azerbaijan -- that would be ridiculous to think.
Can you please present the reference to where you acquired this "kangaroo court" information?
The Turkish government and its supporters are creating reasonable doubt in an attempt to defend the country. Reasonable doubt will never prove that Turkey was innocent of this crime -- only the facts and truth will. And there is some information that Turkey will never reveal, afterall, who would incriminate himself in an attempt to get to the truth?
vatan
07 November 2007
http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/washington/news.aspx?id=68245
Experts respond to Turkey's Prime Minister on the Armenian genocide question
by Mrinalini Reddy
Nov 06, 2007
WASHINGTON -- Turkey’s Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan was in Washington Monday to meet with President Bush to discuss mounting tensions between the Turks and Kurdish rebel factions in Northern Iraq.
Also on the agenda was the Armenian genocide resolution which passed in the House Foreign Affairs Committee last month. The Medill News Service spoke with two experts who have challenged Turkey’s position on the Armenian question and asked them to respond to Erdogan’s comments.
Turkish scholar Taner Akçam, author of “A Shameful Act : The Armenian Genocide and the Question of Turkish Responsibility,” is one of the first Turkish academics to acknowledge and discuss openly the killings of Armenians by the Ottoman Turkish government in 1915.
Edward Alexander is a retired U.S. Foreign Service officer and author, born in New York to Armenian parents who fled Turkey.
Erdogan: "Our documents indicate that there is no genocide that has taken place. Those who claim it must prove it. Having simple lobbying activities and trying to achieve a result in this way is unacceptable to Turkey. "
Alexander: "The evidence is overwhelming and to many Armenians, it is utterly preposterous for anyone, especially the Turkish government, to deny what is historical truth. For my research, one of my sources was the German press. My other source was the cables that were sent to Ambassador Henry Morgenthau, the US ambassador in Turkey at the time of the genocide. These are documents that cannot be refuted. In addition, I did research eye-witness reports in Merseburg, Germany."
Akçam: "Our Prime Minister is wrong because we can prove the genocidal intent without any problems. One set of documentation are the trials in Istanbul between 1919 and 1921. These are the indictments, verdicts, hand-written testimonies and eye-witness accounts which were recorded during that time. There is a lot of evidence here showing the killing of the Armenians. The originals of these documents are not known. We assume that they have been destroyed after Turkish nationalists took over Istanbul. [Turkish officials] only trust the documents in prime ministerial archive today in Istanbul. I can show very easily, based on prime ministerial archives, the genocidal intent of Ottoman Turkey. I will publish a book in the Turkish language in 2008 where I am presenting more than 500 documents from prime ministerial archives in Istanbul."
Erdogan: "What took place was called deportation because that was a very difficult time....Given the context of the time and the events that took place, there was provocation by some other countries and the Armenians became part of the rebellion in those years."
Alexander: "One of the newer arguments that they are raising now is that it was the Armenians who attacked the Turks. This is ridiculous. How the Armenians would have done this, having been disarmed, calls for a great stretch of the imagination."
Akçam: "The argument says there were Armenian uprisings. It is simply a lie. The deportations were taking place before any Armenian uprising. There was only one incident in April 1915 and the deportation decree occurred at the end of March. They were individual Armenian deserters and even Armenians were against them. Not only were Armenians deported from eastern Anatolia, they were deported from the entire Anatolia, despite being totally integrated into the Turkish life."
Erdogan: "I wrote a letter to President Kocharian [Republic of Armenia] in 2005. We have suggested the establishment of a joint historical commission and we said that we would make available all documents in our archives…. We aim to reach a common understanding of this painful period in our history, but I still, to date, have not received a response to my letter in 2005."
Alexander: "The position of the Armenian government has always been that they want to have diplomatic relations with Turkey, with no pre-existing conditions. However, the Turkish government did not accept this and laid down its own conditions: 1) the Armenian Diaspora should stop talking about the genocide 2) Armenia and the Azerbijani government should declare peace."
Akçam: "It is a good suggestion. If there is a problem you cannot solve, you have to find ways to talk to each other. First, you need diplomatic relations. How can you establish a commission without even talking? Turkey has pre-conditions for diplomatic relations, which Armenia does not want."
Erdogan: "It is my sincere wish that the US Congress does not keep this resolution and does away with the discussion of this resolution altogether."
Alexander: "This doesn’t surprise me. There is a very strong feeling in the Congress that this may not be the best time to bring up the resolution because of the Iraq/Kurdish situation. The main thing is that it should not be shelved. You have scholars at the International Association of Genocide Scholars come up with the same conclusion. It is simply a move on the part of Turkey to delay the resolution in the hope that eventually those who are true survivors will have died and their offspring, like myself, will be so elderly. I am 87. Turks are hoping that time will weaken the arguments and memory."
Akçam: "The US resolution does and does not matter. It doesn’t matter because it will be a psychological victory, but won’t really solve anything. It does matter because Turkey must understand that threatening with its political strategic power will not solve its list of problems. For instance, Turkey cannot become a member of the European Union if talking about history is a crime."
Erdogan: "This is a problem of the Armenian Diaspora. They are looking for a way to create some sort of benefit for itself and this is what they have found. If this works, then they look to achieve some gains from it. If not, the world will have lost a lot of time."
Alexander: "I don’t know what the gains would be. We are asking only for justice."
Akçam: "It is a stupid distinction to think that there is a difference between Armenians and Armenians in the Diaspora. They are all asking that the perpetrator must face their history."
MontrealTurk
08 November 2007
Vatan: Armenians called their victims Turks as they were viciously pushing daggers to slice their guts. The moving force was their hatred for Turks in general. To me this is racial xenophobia. An essence of genocide requires racial hatred, so I claim the actions of Armenian soldiers /armed men constitutes genocide, especially if we are going to call the relocation of Armenians for security purposes a geno.
Dear Vatan: Why did you clip the part where Akcam claims that deportation started before the Van uprising at the end of March 1915? Could it be because you know that deportation began on June 16 1915. The decision was taken at the end of May 1915.
You publish your book and the we will shame you with your forced facts about Nemrut Mustafa courts.
MontrealTurk
08 November 2007
Vatan: You did not complete the definition of genocide. Is it because the full definition kills your theory? You missed out 'as such' .
Genocide is [The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.] -- 'as such'. In other words for being born to that group.
However, if an entire national, racial, ethnic group attacks my soverign coutry they deserve a response in kind. This is called war.
By the way, you also included 'political group' in your definition which was removed from the UN convention upon Raphael Lemkin's recommendation. Obviously, you wish to change the definition of genocide as well in order to fit your condition in 1915. If that is so, then change the name also.
Vatan: The fact that you exclusively refer to pro-Armenian web sites and propaganda literature proves that you present a biased argument. You have made up your conclusions and only accept "proof" that supports those conclusions. You even bend the law of genocide!. A very shameful act!.
vatan
08 November 2007
MontrealTurk: The fact that you exclusively refer to pro-Turkish web sites and propaganda literature proves that you present a biased argument. You have made up your conclusions and only accept "proof" that supports those conclusions. You even bend the law of genocide!. A very shameful act!.
vatan
08 November 2007
The sad reality is that even if the Armenian genocide could be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt, you would still deny it. It seems that you're not interested in the truth, but rather being right. Until then, it's more patriotic to take the Turkish side. However, I choose the side of the truth as accepted by the majority of the world, and not the Turkish government (which has no interest in revealing the truth anyway).
vatan
08 November 2007
I didn't clip anything from the article. I pasted it as is.
MontrealTurk
08 November 2007
Vatan: Just because I am defending Turkish people's innocence in the 1915 events, you are blaming me for things I have not done yet, like I would still deny even if your opinion was proven. Please do not force me into accepting something that you have failed to prove for 92 years. Obviously, we both believe we are defending TRUTH.
MontrealTurk
08 November 2007
Dear Vatan: I do recommend you check the UN definition of genocide. If you did not clip from or insert anything to the definition you posted above. Could it be that you used pro-Armenian misleading sources?
The UN definition of genocide does not include political paarties. It was removed upon Raphael Lemkin's recommendation.
There is also the extra word 'as such' - meaning for being so, not just happen to be.
vatan
08 November 2007
I used dictionary.com for a quick reference. I didn't mean to mislead anyone with the definition that was proposed.
You're right about everyone defending what they see as being the "truth". But if someday the final truth is revealed (either way), then everyone should swallow their pride and put aside their loyalties and accept it. Period.
MontrealTurk
08 November 2007
Dear Vatan,
My source for the definition of genocide is the UN web site. Sorry, I cannot give the URL, because I reached it through a search engine and it never popped up when I typed in the URL.
Also, please do not use Wickipedia as a reliable source. I have noticed that especially in the Armenian genocide subject, someone immediately changes the facts.
vatan
08 November 2007
http://www.un.org/millennium/law/iv-1.htm
That is the url to the UN definition of genocide. The definition can be used by both sides to claim genocide.
MontrealTurk
09 November 2007
Dear Vatan,
I am surprised that the word ‘as such’ is missing from your source. Also missing is the political parties as it should be. Your source I believe is an interpretation of the law. I am surprised it is published under the UN site with such flaws favoring the Armenian allegations demands.
Here is my source http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/RESOLUTION/GEN/NR0/044/31/IMG/NR004431.pdf?OpenElement
Here is how to get there in case it does not appear with a click. www.un.org, English, main bodies, general assembly, human rights councel, resources-documents, general assembly – resolutions, 3rd session 1948, 260(III) 9 December 1948 Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. And here is how it is worded:
Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in hole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group as such:
a) Killing members… etc. b) causing harm… c) deliberately inflicting life calculating to bring destruction in whole or in part..d) measures intended to prevent births…e) Forcibly transferring children…
I hope everyone can see for themselves from the UN archives. May I request you to investigate who wrote the interpretation to be published in the UN Millenium section? It is criminal how some people use deceitful methods to reach their aim.
Shutout
10 November 2007
MontrealTurk: The fact that you exclusively refer to pro-Turkish web sites and propaganda literature proves that you present a biased argument. You have made up your conclusions and only accept "proof" that supports those conclusions. You even bend the law of genocide!. A very shameful act!.
You make me laugh. That's exactly what you are doing. Pot, meet kettle.
You and your Armenian buddies change the definition of the word genocide and hope that nobody notices. Well, we do.
BTW: your ancestors killed hundreds of thousands of Turkish Muslims. According to you that's genocide as well. Shame on you for defending genocide!
MontrealTurk
11 November 2007
Shutout:
You blame me as if I am referencing exclusively pro-Turkish sites.
I gave you the genocide definition from the United Nations original document. Your aggressive response is a clear sign that you understand Armenian allegations do not fit the UN definition of genocide.
Everyone else can clearly see from the coments of this post that Armenians are trying to reach their pre-fixed conclusions and disseminate biased propaganda. It is clear who is evading the FACTS.
BrianAlbright
11 November 2007
If the Armenian Genocide is real, then why don't we mourn anniversaries of the Algiers genocide that the French committed? How bout the Native Indians that we killed off? How is the Armenian relocation of suspected rebelling Armenian towns any different than the Japanese Americans in World War II being jailed in camps for fear of being spies? The difference is, the Armenians were rebelling, Armenian nationalism had spread everywhere and they were fighting along with the Russians. Have you noticed how the Armenians just seem to accuse the Turks as "Denialists!" "Genocide Deniers", but they never ever mention any facts or statistics on the issue? They never make a valid argument other than "Turks are barbaric" or "Many nations recognize Armenian Genocide so you should too" yet they fail to mention the nations recognizing the genocide have lots of Armenian voters? This is because the Armenian genocide theory supporters have absolutely no evidence except grandfather horror stories about how the Turks brutally crushed the Armenians.
Guess what? While there may have been horror stories about Armenians being killed, there is just as many if not more, horror stories about Turks being massacred by Armenians, yet you don't hear those stories often because the voice of the Armenian is always louder than the voice of the Turks.
The Armenians rebelled, they failed when Russia retreated, and the Armenians had trusted them and were betrayed. The Ottomans relocated the rebelling villages, and the violence between Turkish civilians, Kurds and Armenians in the region had stopped. Once they knew their independence failed, they decided to create a myth of genocide, and they have succeeded in spreading propaganda to the world, and convincing people that the Turks should be hated. They now await for the world to recognize their genocide, which is the first step toward Turkey paying reparations and land back to Armenia which is their ultimate goal. They have all the motives they need to fabricate genocide.
BrianAlbright
11 November 2007
Armenian admins have corrupted the wikipedia (added their own points of view and locked the articles) and other sites in the internet to represent only the Armenian arguments. They frequently compare and contrast with REAL genocides like Rwanda, Darfur, or the Holocaust, even making up quotes by Hitler mentioning the Armenians which he never has as historians have proven.
The fact is, Armenians and Turks lived together for peace for 700-800 years, they had their own religious freedoms, churches that have stood there for centuries. However, when nationalism spread in the 1800s, the Armenians began to rebel with encouragement of Ottoman-enemy Britain and Czarist Russia. Now the Ottoman Empire during 1915 being in war with France, Italy, Britain, Greece, and Russia, on several war fronts, completely in debt as the Sick Man of Europe, with numerous rebellions from the Balkans and Arabs. Why would they decide then, that it is the right time to exterminate the Armenians? This was their weakest point, when Hitler tried to exterminate the Jews he was at his strongest point, Germany was breezing through France and Poland, and the Allies were losing the war. The Ottomans were always loosing, they never had the time, money, weapons of mass-killing, or any way to even identify who's Armenian and who's not. There IS NOT a single SHRED of EVIDENCE that the Ottoman government had a policy to exterminate Armenians, and hence why it isn't genocide. Was it a tragedy where many Armenians died? Yes, but so was it a tragedy where many Turks were killed as well.
AmericanStar
12 November 2007
Ignorant Turks, Armenian Genocide is a well documented historical tragedy, every educated figure knows it, the only people who deny it do it for their own personal reasons. FBI agent busted many congressmen taking bribes from Turkish government to deny it. Go to YouTube and research it.
vatan
12 November 2007
Brian: There is more than enough evidence regarding the Armenian genocide. If you choose to reject it all because it doesn't support your obvious misinformed conclusions, then that's a sign of your ignorance -- not academic intelligence.
MontrealTurk
21 November 2007
American star: However well documented your theory may be, it neither proves genocide nor do you know what it is. Why do all these people you chose to believe come from the ranks of Turkey's enemies like Taner Akcam. You tube is full of Armenian forgeries as well. Please try to provide us with some facts, instead of blaimng us for denialism of what you are unable to prove to be a true fact.
I see Vatan as well has no academic intelligence, because he keeps parroting theories supporting his obviously misinformed cocnlusion. Armenians try to classify their losing World War I as something it is not for their own personal reasons.
vatan
29 November 2007
Don't believe everything MontrealTurk is telling you. She is misguided and her perception of reality is skewed.
MontrealTurk
02 December 2007
I can easily write; "Don't believe anything Vatan is saying. S/He is misguided and his deception of reality is skewed." But, I know that everyone can see for themselves which one of us backed up each one of her calims with archival documents and which one of us spoke from his belly.
vatan
03 December 2007
The fabricated archival documents you present are as useless as your claims.
Allen McLovin
10 December 2007
Armenian's always want to feel special, look at they're dispora, even they're dispora tells them they are choosen ones and the first christians, These allogations took place in 1915, well it is world war 1 and millions of people perhised from many countries and offcourse these special people wants a special recognition.
I guess there are couple of things you need to know to figure this out:
- Ottomans had total control of Armenian's for centuries, why would they wait 400 years to exterminate them ?
- Why would they decide to exterminate Armenians while fighting all fronts to worlds most developed countries (military wise) ?
- Why would they wait to exterminate Armenian's while they are the weakest ever been since they're existence?
Any logical people would ask, well then why this deportation took place:
Because, Armenians wanted to get indepence against Ottomasn, Russia and French aided them to organize rebel groups to attack Turkish villages an kill Turkish citizens, in order to get Armenian Population away from the Russian border to eliminate this communication this decision have been made.
Sorry but, Special people keep forgetting to say, "we actually backed stabbed Turks and failed."
Henry Morgenthau
25 December 2007
Cultural genocide
Cultural genocide is a term used to describe the deliberate destruction of the cultural heritage of a people or nation for political, military, religious, ideological, ethnical, or racial reasons.
. When Turkey's Minister of Cultural Affairs opened the Aghtamar church in eastern Anatolia as a museum, critics objected to the use of its Turkified name, seeing in it a denial of the region's Armenian heritage and as a sort of "cultural genocide".
. The destruction by Azerbaijan of thousands of medieval Armenian gravestones at a cemetery-site in Julfa, and Azerbaijan's subsequent denial that the site had ever existed, has been widely written about as being an example of cultural genocide
Will Ambassador Henry Morgenthau be right in his assessment of Turkish culture?
He wrote "Such graces of civilization as the Turk has acquired in five centuries have practically all been taken from the subject peoples whom he so greatly despises. His religion comes from the Arabs; his language has acquired a certain literary value by borrowing certain Arabic and Persian elements; and his writing is Arabic. Constantinople's finest architectural monument, the Mosque of St. Sophia, was originally a Christian church, and all so-called Turkish architecture is derived from the Byzantine and Armenia. The mechanism of business and industry has always rested in the hands of the subject peoples, Armenians, Greeks, Jews, and Arabs. The Turks have learned little of European art or science, they have established very few educational institutions, and illiteracy is the prevailing rule," he wrote early in the 20th Century.
Henry Morgenthau.
Henry Morgenthau
25 December 2007
We are a grandchildren of Genocide survivors
Each year on April 24 we remember the innocent victims of the Armenian Genocide, which was carried out in the Ottoman Turkey. The memories of that ferocious crime live deep in our souls.
Along with the Armenian people other peoples across the world also commemorate this day. The international community has realized that Genocide is a crime not only against a particular people and also against the human kind. The international community has also realized that denial and cover up of Genocide are equally perilous.
Hardships and the feeling of injustice tend to pair. The tragedy of the Genocide made the Armenian identity stronger, compelled us to come together, and enhanced the drive for independence and statehood. As the embodiment of the Armenians’ centuries long dream the Republic of Armenia must prosper and develop.
Strong, democratic and prosperous Armenia will be our response to those who planned, carried out and now deny the Genocide.
Genocide survivors
vatan
07 January 2008
Allen McLovin:
Deportation is okay as long as you have the same number of people at the end of the deportation as you had at the beginning.
Unfortunately, very few of the Armenians actually made it through the "deportation". Most were robbed, raped, and/or killed/died along the way. Therefore, it was a creative method of exterminating the Armenians - also known as genocide.
BrianAlbright
09 January 2008
You guys are a piece of work, propaganda has polluted your mind so deeply since a young age you were taught to hate Turks and to accept the genocide as truth and to never ever question it, you are no different than the Islamofacists that are taught from a young age to hate other religions.
....... Armenians actually read this so that you see a different point of view on the subject, and then think about it a little before you rush to your irrational responses of dismissing my point of view as LIES.....
You always say "The armenian genocide is proven already, lots of evidence", but seldom do Armenians mention the evidence... Why??? Because the evidence they have is actually a couple testimonies from people who have never really been to the Ottoman Empire, while they ignore testimonies that support the Ottoman Empire in the conflict from outside sources, they put forth prejudicial testimonies by racists like Henry Morganthau who has a personal vendetta against the Ottoman Turks.
Testimonies do not prove genocides, archival documents do. This is how the Holocaust was proven, it had archival documents in the thousands (German ones) that showed how Hitler and his men planned out the whole extermination. Hitler made hate speeches against the Jews and wrote it in his book. Hitler created laws to make life tough on Jews and then decided a final solution. Hitler never made any quotes about the Armenians as some Armenians will claim, even though the quote they claim, has been proven countless times by historians to be false.
Jews were identified before the genocide by laws that forced them to wear the Star of david, this is how the extermination was to be carried out. Mass murdering weapons like gas chambers, ovens, and death squads were established and all well-documented and shown. The Jews started to be exterminated when Germany was at its highest strength, and the world feared the Nazis, and the Allies were loosing the war.
Now compare this to the Sick Man of Europe called the Ottoman Empire. It was in debt up to its eyeballs. It was disorganized, and disease and starvation wasn't simply affecting Armenian death tolls but also Ottoman death tolls. The Armenians energized with the spread of nationalism provided by the Allied powers (Russia, Britain [they made propaganda books about Armenian massacres to incite more Armenians to rebel]) and were rebelling behind the front lines of the Ottomans and helping the Russians. They attacked supply routes and sabotaged the Ottoman war effort. To fix this problem, German generals suggested to the Sultan to relocate the suspected Armenian rebel villages to somewhere farther away from the war front. The sultan agreed and created the Tehcir law (Relocation Law). The Tehcir law ordered that food, water, shelter, armed escort, field hospitals, and housing when they arrive in Syria (an Ottoman territory therefore deportation is the wrong word to use), this is no different than the US army relocating Cherokee Indians across the United States, but at least the Ottomans were decent enough to spend money on aiding the Armenians with food, shelter, field hospitals, and water!
In both cases many people died. Armenians were given the opportunity to leave their children to Turkish families that they trust, for adoption, some did, and some did not. However, surviving such a journey for children must have been harsh, but let's get real, there weren't buses or railroad tracks there. Of course Kurdish bandits took advantage of this, and raided the Armenians, killing the Ottoman guards and stealing all the loot. As one Armenian survivor put it "The Turks were good to us, but the Kurds, they took advantage of this relationship, and they took everything from us".
Many Armenians did survive the journey, and were provided homes when they got there. Some have lived prosperous lives in Syria and Lebanon. If the Ottomans wanted to exterminate the Armenians why didn't they attack the Armenians in Western Turkey where genocide is easiest? Why didn't they just kill them with swords quickly, and not waste time in relocations. You Armenians act like as if, the Ottomans had nothing to do, were bored, and decided to relocate Armenians and slowly kill them at the same time, this is absurd and Armenians themselves have even figured it out.
vatan
09 January 2008
BrianAlbright:
Turkish propaganda is no more truer than Armenian propaganda.
You reject the conclusions of numerous internationally recognized scholars because "propaganda has polluted your mind so deeply since a young age you were taught to hate [Armenians] and to [deny] the genocide as truth and to never ever question it..."
Since you've already made your conclusions regarding the genocide, you will naturally accept evidence/proof to support your argument more easily than evidence/proof to reject your argument.
blackcrow
11 January 2008
As the most modern muslim nation for more than 80 years, we Turks say ; Armenians used by western world as puppets. (specially by French) During the first world war we mess up evil western plans on Anatolia. By fighting 3 years against coalition power Brits-Greeks-French-Italians and evil Ottoman Government. we declared our independence from Ottomans and also from western world. Results of building modern Turkey is fail of western world and naturally fail of Armenians too. Unfortunately it's gonna go on. Because we will be fully industrialized in the near future...Sorry people..!
blackcrow
11 January 2008
........and we never did a genocide. Turkish nationalism never stands on ethnic separation or blood racism like western nationalism. If Ottomans really decided to make a genocide to Armenians, they easily would. They had that much power. But they didn't. Ottomans decided to remove and relocate them from the battlefields of eastern Anatolia. Because Armenians were helping whoever were the enemies to The Ottoman Empire.
Let me ask all of you people ; If Ottomans made a genocide, how possibly they didn't even touch Armenians who were living in Istanbul?(which was a capital of Ottomans) During the so called genocide years, there were lots of Armenians living and working in Istanbul. Armenians were trusted civilized people by Ottoman government. They were running most of the businesses in Istanbul. Such as, banks, shopping centers, supermarkets, medical clinics. Also Armenians were trusted people in the political business too. There were Armenian parliaments and politicians and lots of journalists working in Istanbul during WW1. So, let me repeat my question;
How possibly Ottoman Government never touch western Armenians who were living in western Ottoman cities but they relocate only the eastern villager Armenians?
The answer is simple : Western Armenians were wealthy happy and they were first class citizens of Ottoman empire. Eastern Armenians were poor, extremist christian and they were used by western world. Artificial nationalism injected to them by western world. Also western propaganda British-French-Russian) dictated on Armenians to fight against Ottomans on their side. They were simply lied and brain washed them about building a great Armenia for all Armenians. But they were missing one little detail.Turks!
Western propaganda is still going on at max level by E.U. governments and the U.S. government with great Armenian effort. They try to twist real history in front of world's eyes. But I must say; History is history, it doesn't matter how hard you try to twist it.
blackcrow
11 January 2008
Let's think for a while; United States is finished its period and it's collapsing. Like Ottoman Empire. All these years hispanic people lived in this country with their rights having no problem. But this time some benefit starving European countries injecting them an extreme nationalism and they convince them to build a fully independent country inside the U.S. soil. Let's say whole Texas is gonna be "Hispania" Since U.S. is collapsing, hispanics start being rebells and they get armed from their European masters and they declare war against U.S. inside the United States.....
What would U.S. government do ?
Armenian issue of Ottoman Empire was exactly something like that.Nothing more.
kazimkarabekir
24 February 2008
KAZIM KARABEKIR
THERE WAS NO GENOCIDE YOU IDIOTS IT WAS DISPLACING FOR ASSHOLES WHO FOUGHT AGAINST THERE OWN GOVERMENT WITH THE ARMENIAN MILITIA.
scarsonbroadway
14 March 2008
Believe, or go home.
MontrealTurk
04 October 2008
Those self appointed “genocide scholars” are not independent. For proof, see Dennis Papazian’s message from March 2008.
Danger of Hilmar Kaiser: A Warrning!
Adrienne McOmber… just phoned me to tell me that she and her husband went to a lecture last night at Rutgers University to hear Dr. Hilmar Kaiser, an event unfortunately sponsored by the Armenian Students Society wherein Hilmar, as he has done for the past several years, badmouthed and denigrated just about all Armenian genocide scholars in the US and Europe, including Vahakn Dadrian and Taner Akcam, and put into question the very reality of a genocide sponsored by the Young Turk government against the Armenians in 1915-1923.
The lecture was attended by some apparently high-ranking Turks who smiled and nodded throughout the lecture. They then invited Hilmar to dinner today! They talked with Hilmar in Turkish, but we had Turkish speaker present who understood what was going on.
He is attempting to put into question all the valuable scholarship produced by Armenians and their cohorts regarding the Armenian genocide and thus deny that the genocide was sponsored by the Turkish central authorities, making it only a series of massacres carried out on the local level. This is subversive activity at its worse.
Unfortunately, an important Armenian patriotic organization had unwittingly sent Hilmar on a speaking tour around the United State a couple of year ago, wherein he did the same thing. I received phone calls from all over the United States warning me about what was going on. Knowing his itinerary, I asked people to record his "lectures" so I would have proof of what he was doing. I then contacted his sponsors who replied that "he attracted young people" and was therefore useful.
Finally I had to contact some higher ups who then caused the organization to warn Hilmar that if he spoke against Armenian genocide scholars his tour would be brought to an end.
Now Hilmar is back on the road on a speaking tour, offered free to Armenian student organizations, wherein he is now doing the same badmouthing and putting the Armenian genocide, as a genocide, in question. He will speak at Villanova University on Monday, March 31.
The man is a clear and present danger. If he puts into question the work of our best genocide scholars, then the Turks have a natural and effective ally against us. He worked for me several years ago and I had to fire him for his dishonesty. I still have the records.
All Armenian student groups and all Armenian organizations must be warned not to sponsor his talks and also to attend his lectures when they are inevitable, record the lectures and send a copy to me, and be prepared to defend our genocide scholars against his false accusations.
From: Dennis R. Papazian
papazian at umich.edu
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