Let me, however, deal with some of the points made by Mr. Sassounian, who is obviously a bit prejudiced because he’s an Armenian himself, and an activist at that. (Warning, my post contains horrible images)
He writes:
Mr. Wiesel, however, was not as forceful back in 1982 when the Israeli Foreign Ministry, under pressure from the Turkish government, asked him to exclude Armenian scholars from an international conference on the Holocaust and Genocide that was to be held in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. Faced with the dilemma of not wanting to eliminate Armenian participation or acceding to Israeli government’s demands, Mr. Wiesel resigned as president of the conference. He explained that he chose to remove himself rather than challenge the Israeli government’s demands, because he had to be mindful of the threat to Jewish lives in Turkey.
And that’s what, weak? Resigning from your position because you’re given two choices, neither which are good, is weak or wrong? He made the right decision, from his perspective. What’s more, whether activists like Sassounian like it or not, even people who generally agree with the Armenians on whether what happened constitutes genocide or not don’t agree with them on everything. It must be difficult for Mr. Sassounian to live in a world and country where people have different opinions and where people act on their opinions even when Mr. Sassounian doesn’t like it.
He then goes on to write, and I quote at length just so that Americans realize what it is Armenians really want when they blackmail the US Congress into passing a resolution calling what happened genocide:
Mr. Wiesel, however, leaves a lot to be desired in answering Philadelphia Jewish Voice reporter’s second question on whether “the Turks have an obligation to take some responsibility” for the Armenian Genocide?
Mr. Wiesel responded by saying: “No one is asking for the Turks to take responsibility. All the Armenians want is the right to remember. Seven generations separate us from the events that happened in World War I and nobody in his right mind would say that today’s Turks are responsible for what happened. The Armenians don’t want reparations; they don’t even want an apology. They want the right to remember. The Turks would gain a lot if they simply acknowledged the reality of what happened. I have spoken with Turkish leaders at the highest level and their attitude about this issue is totally irrational except for one thing, which I do understand. They don’t want to be compared to Hitler. But of course, nobody does.”
Photo above: Turks beheaded by Armenian militias.
Just about every single statement contained in the above paragraph is inaccurate. Contrary to Mr. Wiesel’s assertions, Armenians do not need anyone’s permission to remember or mourn their dead. Their right to remember has never been in question. It is also untrue that “seven generations separate us” from the era of the genocide. There are still surviving eyewitnesses of the Armenian Genocide. This writer is the grandson (third generation) of genocide survivors.
Regarding Turkish responsibility, while Armenians do not blame today’s Turks for the killings, they do hold the Turkish state responsible for falsifying and denying the facts of the Armenian Genocide. Furthermore, Mr. Wiesel is wrong in asserting that “Armenians don’t want reparations, they don’t even want an apology. They want the right to remember.” The fact is that Armenians do not really care whether Turks apologize for the killings or not. Armenians do insist, however, on obtaining adequate restitution for the enormous damages they suffered. Why is it that the victims of the Holocaust are entitled to reparations and Armenians are not? In contrast to the Jews, Armenians were uprooted from their ancestral homeland losing their property, cultural heritage as well as their lives. One has to agree, however, with Mr. Wiesel’s assertion that “the Turks would gain a lot if they simply acknowledged the reality of what happened.” Yet, contrary to Mr. Wiesel’s expectations, and probably that of the Turkish government, there can be no reconciliation between Armenians and Turks without justice, which requires the return of the occupied lands and looted properties, and restitution for the 1.5 million murders.
Yes, although many Armenians constantly say that they don’t want reparations nor lands, the fact of the matter is that they most certainly do want lands and money. Sadly for the Armenians however, the comparison with the holocaust is more than insulting to the six million Jews who died because of the terrible hatred of the Nazis. In fact, as Professor Justin McCarthy argues in The First Shot, it were the Armenians who started ethnically cleansing (Eastern) Anatolia and who adhered - and quite some continue to adhere - to a violent, radical, bigoted and hateful nationalist ideology.
Photo to the left: weapons of Armenian militias.The comparison with the Jews is historically so incredibly inaccurate that Jews should force Armenians to stop comparing themselves to them immediately. Jews didn’t organize themselves in militias 10, 20, 30, 40 and so on years before the holocaust happened, nor did they attack Germans in, say, 1930, nor did they wipe out entire German villages in 1932, nor did they believe that Germany should give up a large part of itself and give it to the Jews who would then force Christian Germans off those lands, either by deporting or killing them.
The Jews didn’t do that, but the Armenians most certainly did.
For some reason Mr. Sassounian also forgets to mention that well before the Ottomans decided to relocate the Armenians in self-defense, Armenian thugs conquered entire villages and lands (sometimes by themselves, sometimes together with the Russians) and forced Muslims to move (or die) after which they took possession of all the possessions of those Muslim Turks. Strangely he also forgets to mention that, again as Professor McCarthy explained, that approximately one third of the Muslims who were forced off their lands by the Russians died by starvation, diseases, etc. all because Armenians wanted to create a pure Christian-Armenian nation-state, and the Russians wanted to expand their country.
Gendermas and officers belonging to the Provisions Columns of the Imperial Army, commanded by Hamid, an officer of the Milita, who, on July 11 1915, were assassinated by the Armenian bands at a place called Sheytan Kaya. These bands which had specially come from Van and Talory for the purpose of terrorizing the locality were under the leadership of the famous bandit Dorian Dano and his brothers and who afterwards were discovered to have taken refurge in the Armenian village of Beshnik, in Silvan.
Why doesn’t Mr. Sassounian mention this? O, and why does he forget to mention that after the first Word War his merry ancestors continued to do what they did before, during and after the first World War by forcing the Muslims to leave Cilicia? And why does he forget to mention that thanks to the Armenians and the Russians, etc., more than 3 million Muslim Turks died? And why does he conveniently forget to mention that Armenia invaded Azerbaijan in 1992 and forced approximately 1 million Muslims off their ‘ancient homelands’ and put them into camps as Samuel Weems mentions in his book “Armenia: Secrets of a Christian Terrorist State”?
All are inconvenient truths and crimes committed by ‘Christian’ Armenians against ‘Muslims’ so it’s not worth mentioning them I guess.
To the right: Photo, taken on the spot, of some of Msulim victims assassinated with hachets by Armenians in the village of Koollar. 1- Malik, the Bosniac 2- Ali, son of Abdulmejid 3- Seyid son of Ali (aged 14 years) 4- Abdulgani son of Omer 5- Mecid son of Abdulgani 6- Huseyin son of Abdullah 7- Yusuf son of Bekir 8- Ismail son of Osman
Fascinating that.
O, he also strangely forgets to mention that for all his talk about ‘ancient historical homelands’ Armenians were actually living in many of those ‘ancient historical homelands’ for a couple of decades and that they formed the majority… just about nowhere. Not even almost. In most of their ‘ancient historical homelands’ they formed 20% tops 25% of the local population. His ancestors didn’t fight to liberate the people, they fought to let the minority oppress the majority. That’s not a revolution, it’s called a dictatorship of a minority.
Mr. Sassounian here’s the truth: your ancestors tried to ethnically cleanse the lands but they failed in doing so. They thought they could beat the Ottomans but the Ottomans proved stronger than they thought. At the moment the Ottomans fought back they realized that they had to get rid of the Armenian problem and, instead of killing them, they decided to relocate them to another part of the Ottoman Empire (please note that they didn’t even deport them, for you deport people to other nations). Sadly, many Armenians, many innocent Armenians, died during the relocations because they were attacked by Turkish and Kurdish gangs and due to starvation and diseases. That was terrible. But those deaths weren’t the result of the inhumanity of the Ottomans, they were the result of the nationalism, radicalism, and terrorism of the Armenian leaders who rebelled against the Ottomans and who killed many thousands of innocent Muslims.
Photo to the left: innocent Turkish Muslim strangled to death.If Mr. Sassounian is interested I’ll be happy to show him some pictures of Muslim women who were pregnant with their bellies cut open exposing the baby while both mother and child were left for dead by Armenian terrorists. If he wants, I can also show him some pictures of innocent children slaughtered by Armenian militias because they wanted to create a racially pure nation-state.
When Armenians talk about reparations and lands those with knowledge about this issue should speak out immediately to share the truth with the world. Armenians don’t have the right to anything. They have their own country - ruled miserably and completely dependent on foreign aide (when will Armenia repay its debts to the US?) - they should stop demanding other peoples’ lands. Instead, Armenia should withdraw from Azerbaijan and pay reparations to the approximately million Azeris who were forced out of their homes after Armenia invaded their country.
Photo to the right: innocent Turks killed by Armenian militias.Mr. Sassounian finished by writing: “While Mr. Wiesel may not choose to be an advocate for Armenian demands, he should not misrepresent Armenians’ quest for justice!”
Great. Perhaps Azeris and Turks should demand justice as well. Armenia will be financially even more ruined than it is now if they do.
The sad reality is that many innocent people died and that’s lots of people were responsible. What’s more, none of the sides in this conflict was without guilt. Perhaps it’s time for Armenians to acknowledge this and to stop distorting the truth and to leave out inconvenient facts.
Comments »
1
P. Connolly
December 17, 2007 @ 7:33 pm CET
Well, we’ve been saying all along that the Armenian Propaganda Machine had a hidden agenda and what we’re learning now is that even Elie Wiesel didn’t know about that hidden agenda all this time !
2
Nick
December 17, 2007 @ 8:28 pm CET
I’m not going to bother to contest a single thing you portray here as fact- mainly since you fail to realize that railing against Armenian propagandists and their non-Armenian allies by refuting them with Turkish propagandists and their non-Turkish allies results in a zero-sum article.
I just want to know what you know about Sam Weems and what it is about him which made you find his work worth reprinting here as a legitimate source. I just want to know this answer about Weems.
3
Michael van der Galien
December 17, 2007 @ 8:31 pm CET
I’m not going to answer anyone who asks questions in such a way Nick. In fact, the facts I’ve given are all, just that: facts. Sadly for the Armenian lobby of course, but they’re facts nonetheless.
So when is Armenia going to withdraw from Azerbaijan and when is going pay damages to the families of Muslims they killed in Turkey and Azerbaijan, etc?
4
Rich Horton
December 17, 2007 @ 9:03 pm CET
I cannot say that Weems strikes me as someone I would particularly want to hang my reputation on. Disbarred lawyers from Arkansas do not the best historians make.
It should also be said that Justin McCarthy’s views are not generally accepted in the Western scholarly tradition, although he doesn’t seem to be the crank that Weems was.
5
Michael van der Galien
December 17, 2007 @ 9:12 pm CET
Rich: McCarthy is most definitely a respected scholar, and he’s backed up by various other well known scholars as you know, I hope. Weems: of course not - not without having other sourcing backing his claims up. When I use something of Weems, I’ve checked it.
What’s more, I get a little tired of people constantly attacking ’sources’ and experts. If the Armenians would be so demanding always, they wouldn’t have much of a case considering that they often rely on Armenian scholars, fabrications, lies, and distortions.
6
Rich Horton
December 17, 2007 @ 9:22 pm CET
What’s more, I get a little tired of people constantly attacking ’sources’ and experts.
Yeah, but I’m an academic…its what I do. Plus there is a greater sensitivity about such thing in the States, particularly after the Ward Churchill incident. His claim that the US Government purposely infected plains indians with smallpox was fabricated out of whole cloth…Churchill then "backed up" his claim by writing articles under other peoples names and citing, in effect, himself as supporting evidence.
Is everything Churchill says forever wrong? No, but if there are other sources of information with folks who do not have such credibility issues you are better off using them. It is just my opinion, but I think you can make stronger arguments by ditching Weems completely.
7
Truth
December 17, 2007 @ 9:43 pm CET
read more on Turkish Denial of Armenian Genocide
"How Armenians Can Avert The Third World War."
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/29628.html
8
Deniz
December 17, 2007 @ 9:46 pm CET
Michael,
You have prepared an excellent article. More and more people will realize that there are two sides to the story. The Armenians have had it easy this far. Turks may have been quiet, but they have awakened. It wasn’t only the Turkish Government’s lobbying (and who can forget the Armenians lobbying Nancy Pelosi and scores of other Democrats and showering them with donations), it was aso because part of the US Congress found out that the Armenians were not the innocent bystanders which they claimed to have been; that, instead, they had created a civil war; and that to this day, their aim is to gain reparations in the form of billions of dollars and territory from the Republic of Turkey.
Well done, Michael..
Deniz
9
Nick
December 17, 2007 @ 10:02 pm CET
"What’s more, I get a little tired of people constantly attacking ’sources’ and experts."
You mean like the way you attack every single pro-Armenian source as a lie and accept at face value anything which says anything which refutes the events as genocide, whether they be respected scholar, Arkansas quack, or Turkish government propaganda piece?
Having sources which state something is only half the battle. From my time in academia I can say with almost 100% certainty that there are sufficient sources in the world to write a paper proving just about anything you want, no matter how absurd. A source is a source- and unfortunately many fall into the trap of thinking because they can find it in a book that makes it true. Furthermore it also seems that some of the typical sources found on Turkish propaganda sites are books that don’t appear to exist, issues of real newspapers on which the paper is known never to have been printed, and purposeful mistranslations/distortions of Armenian sources.
Does this mean everything the Turkish side says is false or a lie? Of course not but it is a reminder that just because one can make an attribution, especially to extremely obscure 100 year old papers and books, doesn’t mean it’s accurate or even true. We should keep this in mind when considering sources from every side in every arguement and most especially stay away from your proven method of accepting everything pro-Turkish and automatically writing everything Armenian off as a lie.
What’s most disturbing is that I really want to believe you when you say that you aren’t extremely biased to the Turkish side and are able to approach this subject rationally, but your constant inability to consider Armenian scholarly work (not random quotes attributed to various Armenians, usually by Turkish sources) and the ease at which you accept the words of people like Sam Weems without any good reason to is just ridiculous. Have you read his book? It’s very hard to come by copies in print (since curiously the publishing house which published the book appeared just around the time Weems started his book and then receded mysteriously back into oblivion upon his death) but I found a transcription on an Azeri site and read it. His sentiments in many cases are nothing less than virulent hate speech directed at everyone from everyday Armenians to their church itself (which he consistently refers to as "Christian" in quotation marks, constantly insinuating that it is not a real church and backwards establishment which is totally un-Christian. Usually the scholarly nature or credibility of a work is up for debate, but in the case of Weems there can be no debate. The view that his work is totally rubbish cannot be an opinion but is a complete fact which is apparent to anyone who has read it. If you have and maintain it is a fair and creditible work, then I fear for you because you obviously are as hateful if not more than the Armenian Diaspora you regularly assault. If you haven’t, then why are you quoting him and musing on his conclusions so often?
10
Michael van der Galien
December 17, 2007 @ 10:44 pm CET
You mean like the way you attack every single pro-Armenian source as a lie and accept at face value anything which says anything which refutes the events as genocide, whether they be respected scholar, Arkansas quack, or Turkish government propaganda piece?
Pff. Don’t you get tired of yourself?
Having sources which state something is only half the battle. From my time in academia I can say with almost 100% certainty that there are sufficient sources in the world to write a paper proving just about anything you want, no matter how absurd.
Yep: Armenians and their ’scholars’ (and I use this word loosely in this regard) have proven that to be correct. Heck, they even used forged documents! Ah well, let me ask you Nick; are you using the Talat Pasha telegrams? Or are you a big fan of the Blue Book? Or Ambassador Morgenthau’s Fairy Tale (as Heath W. Lowry explained in "The Story Behind Ambassador Morgenthau’s Story")?
What’s most disturbing is that I really want to believe you when you say that you aren’t extremely biased to the Turkish side and are able to approach this subject rationally, but your constant inability to consider Armenian scholarly work (not random quotes attributed to various Armenians, usually by Turkish sources) and the ease at which you accept the words of people like Sam Weems without any good reason to is just ridiculous.
Yeah yeah, I know, bad me for using once Weems. Go on like that please, I’m sure that people will all forget about the many tens of thousands of innocent Muslim Turks who were killed by Armenian thugs.
Have you read his book? It’s very hard to come by copies in print
Really? Hm. I have it. In print. If I can get it, it musn’t be too difficult for a ’scholar’ (again using this word loosely) to get his hands on it huh?
His sentiments in many cases are nothing less than virulent hate speech directed at everyone from everyday Armenians to their church itself (which he consistently refers to as "Christian" in quotation marks, constantly insinuating that it is not a real church and backwards establishment which is totally un-Christian. Usually the scholarly nature or credibility of a work is up for debate, but in the case of Weems there can be no debate. The view that his work is totally rubbish cannot be an opinion but is a complete fact which is apparent to anyone who has read it. If you have and maintain it is a fair and creditible work, then I fear for you because you obviously are as hateful if not more than the Armenian Diaspora you regularly assault. If you haven’t, then why are you quoting him and musing on his conclusions so often?
Yes, yes, the Armenians didn’t kill many innocent Muslim Turks, nor did they try to ethnically cleanse the lands as documented by the Ottomans themselves, the British, the French, the Russians and later, of course, various historians like Bernard Lewis, Stanford Shaw, Justin McCarthy, and so on. I see your point: because Weems’ work wasn’t scholarly the scholars who do prove that the Armenians killed lots of Muslims can be ignored.
As with regards to the Armenian Church: yes, it’s very bigoted to say that if the Church encourages terrorism it isn’t acting very Christian isn’t it?
And why did I use him now? Because he’s right about the fact I used from him. I don’t pretend that his entire book is right, nor is this post a scholarly work, it’s relying on different sources to show that the Armenians and people like you can pretend all they want that there is just one side to the story but there really are two sides.
But keep going Nick!
O, and I do agree with the Turks, 100%. They’re completely right to accuse the Armenian diaspora of fueling bigotry hatred and racism in an attempt to get free lands and reparations. There was no genocide and I fear for the Armenian lobby that their lies will be exposed in the coming years because people with knowledge are speaking out more and more and Turks themselves become more outspoken about it as well.
The world hasn’t heard the Turkish side of the story for decades, now it’s time for the Turks to tell what really happened and how the Armenians - nationalists as they were - did their best to ethnically cleanse the lands, as - for instance - Stanford J. Shaw documented in "The Armenian Legion and Its Destruction of the Armenian Community of Cilicia."
But I guess you’re not a fan of Shaw are you?
Listen Nick, I’m not arguing with you about sources from now onwards. I mean, do you even have a point or are you just trying to discredit an entire article based on one or two sentences citing a source you don’t consider (rightfully so) scholarly?
Ah well, I know how it goes. I’m getting used to the "divert the attention! Don’t let them focus on those inconvenient facts!"
Have you studied the Ottoman documents.
11
Nick
December 17, 2007 @ 11:01 pm CET
What just happened? Besides you skipping my question as to whether or not Weems was a propagandist hate-monger.
Anytime anything is brought up to you, you go back to "Armenians killed Muslims". That can’t be a catch-all to explain away any problems that are directed at your line of thinking that anything Armenian is a lie or evil. You clearly have read Weems work, so aside from the fact that you believe Armenians have done nothing throughout history but kill Muslims can you please assess his work and whether or not the views expressed in his book lean towards the absurdly hateful?
For others who would like to judge Mr. Weems for himself you can find a copy of the book in pdf form on the Azeri government’s webpage:
http://www.mns.gov.az/download/Terrorist_State_Eng.pdf
12
P. Connolly
December 17, 2007 @ 11:02 pm CET
I’m not clear on why anyone would hope to make such a big issue out of the quote from Weems. Anyone with fifth grade reading skills can see that Weems is only mentioned in passing and it’s only his wording that’s being borrowed. One might just as well challenge Michael on his use of punctuation and grammar ! It speaks volumes when an article as significant as this -and with as much solid material as this- is published and opponents seem to be capable of doing little more than challenging technicalities.
13
Rich Horton
December 17, 2007 @ 11:41 pm CET
"Have you studied the Ottoman documents."
There is no evidence that Weems has either. I’ve looked over his book in the .pdf form Nick provided and it in no way conforms with standard historiography. In fact he dismisses any contrary evidence as proof of a vast conspiracy perpetrated by Western academics.
14
Michael van der Galien
December 17, 2007 @ 11:55 pm CET
There is no evidence that Weems has either. I’ve looked over his book in the .pdf form Nick provided and it in no way conforms with standard historiography. In fact he dismisses any contrary evidence as proof of a vast conspiracy perpetrated by Western academics.
Rich, fine - I never said he is scholar, did I. No, I’ve cited many other sources in the past, people who are scholars. Perhaps it’s time to deal with the substance or is that irrelevant.
O, and I did read the Ottoman documents.
15
Rich Horton
December 18, 2007 @ 2:54 am CET
Michael, I’m not trying to inpugn you. In a academic setting you will be judged by the company you keep, i.e. the sources you cite. As in all things, people will always go after weak links, and Weems is an obvious weak link. If you want your work to be considered worthwhile you need to not use stuff like that. Otherwise you can be dismissed as nothing but a crank…and that isn’t anything that would appeal to you.
16
MewMillion
December 18, 2007 @ 3:03 pm CET
I think the same goes for his propensity towards Turkish government published propaganda material which he cites for his "third-party quotes". He says he bases his opinion it wasn’t genocide on western and Armenian sources- and then gets those sources from the Turkish government which sometimes misidentifies who the person was saying the quote, quotes out of context, or presenting mistranslations which have gone through multiple langauges including Turkish by Turkish translators.
What’s clear is that he’d never accept quotes as evidence with such shadowy backgrounds and whose existence is often not even confirmed beyond the confines of propaganda books if it was traced to the Armenian side and yet has no problem with Turkish ones. This is another "weak link" which totally undermines his methodology and would prevent him from being taken seriously at all.
Also I don’t really consider being well-versed in the Ottoman documents owning a book or two translated into English by the Turkish government telling us what the documents say under the auspices of disproving the genocide. No ulterior motive there.
17
Michael van der Galien
December 18, 2007 @ 3:16 pm CET
MewMillion: yeah. So when are you going to protest the Armenian occupation of Azerbaijan and when are you going to apologize for the horrible crimes committed against Turkish Muslims?
Never?
18
MewMillion
December 18, 2007 @ 4:10 pm CET
"So when are you going to protest the Armenian occupation of Azerbaijan and when are you going to apologize for the horrible crimes committed against Turkish Muslims?"
This is just incredible. As people have pointed out before, I don’t think you are capable of admitting anything or your extremely biased approach to this complicated matter without justifying it with pointless non-sequitors. I will say no group is perfect, but since when does that give you the right to do whatever you want in response. You are essentially tacitly admitting you are being unfair with your use of sources and approach to the subject (as you didn’t refute it flat out) but justify it because you find Armenians to be criminals.
Armenian-Azerbaijan conflict is not even related to what we are talking about and yet you envoke it for unknown reasons as an excuse for your affinity for the Turkish view. Are you saying you can’t bring yourself to admit anything positive about Armenians or their views and so you just remind us over and over that their criminals and therefore even though the Turkish sources you use have been refuted up and down, or at laid bare for what they are- propaganda sources, it gives you the license to continue to accept those?
If this was the case then, for example, Jews would have the license to do whatever they want because they’ve suffered Palestinian terrorism. This obviously ignores the other side of the story, that Israeli treatment of Palestinians over the years has been no walk in the park in itself if not criminal at times, but if one subscribes to the van der Gaelian way of thinking then anything pro-Jewish is automatically creditible because it defames Palestinians and Palestinians = terrorists!Ironically a Palestinian supporter would have the opposite view and would take anything pro-Palestinian as automatically creditible You have set-up ground rules for one disaster of a debate- and that’s exactly what’s been ensuing on you blog.
19
Michael van der Galien
December 18, 2007 @ 4:15 pm CET
lol - in other words: what Armenia has done and continues to do is irrelevant because it would hurt the case that what happened was genocide. O, it’ll also make it impossible for you and your buddies to compare it to the holocaust, won’t it?
This story has two sides, and I consider it my duty to share the ‘other side’ of the story with the world. Of course, if the US Congress or European Parliaments want to do something about ‘genocide’ or ‘ethnic cleansing’ they should do something about the Armenian occupation of Azerbaijan.
So: When are you going to protest the Armenian occupation of Azerbaijan and when are you going to admit that the merry Armenian militias tried to ethnically cleanse the lands before, during and after World War I (as documented by Bernard Lewis, Stanford Shaw, Heath Lowry, Justin McCarthy, and so on)? And when is the Armenian diaspora going to repay the Turkish relatives of those who suffered due to the nationalist pretensions of the Armenian leaders?
“This is just incredible.”
No, what’s incredible is that you and people like you conveniently ignore the crimes committed by Armenians in a quest for land and reparations, as explained by Sassounian himself in the article I cited.
20
MewMillion
December 18, 2007 @ 4:50 pm CET
"what Armenia has done and continues to do is irrelevant because it would hurt the case that what happened was genocide."
No. What Armenia and Azerbaijan did in the 1990s should have no effect on the facts of what happened between Armenia and Turkey in 1915. You seem to be operating on some type of notion that it’s not genocide of the genocidee has done anything wrong to anyone in its entire history. Indeed, often the events of the Karabakh war are stated as one of the main reasons 1915 is a lie by Turkish and especially Azeri propaganda sources. Why those two things should have any connection is beyond me. If Jews wiped out every Arab in the world does that automatically discount the Holocaust?
"O, it’ll also make it impossible for you and your buddies to compare it to the holocaust, won’t it?"
Actually Jews are caught up in a territorial dispute just like Armenians and Jews are recognized as being an occupying power. If you don’t believe that Jews being an occupying power today are grounds to de-genocide or at least lessen the Holocaust then you cannot say it does lessen 1915. Whether or not 1915 was genocide or not is one thing, but whether being an occupying power changes that is completely another.
"No, what’s incredible is that you and people like you conveniently ignore the crimes committed by Armenians in a quest for land and reparations"
Haha, let’s just devolve this into a children’s game of "it’s incredible!" Instead of answering what I say you just keep turning my words around back at me with the same pointed and totally irrelevant refrain.
Are blogs meant for spirited debate or for you to throw anti-Armenian temper tantrums whenever anyone makes a good point? The subject at hand was your consistent improper use of various dubious sources. You continue to respond to it with "Armenians killed people". This is like trying to debate a brick wall.
21
Michael van der Galien
December 18, 2007 @ 4:56 pm CET
What Armenia and Azerbaijan
Wrong again: what Armenia did. Azerbaijan was attacked.
in the 1990s should have no effect on the facts of what happened between Armenia and Turkey in 1915.
No it does actually. You think Turkey should pay reparations and give lands to Armenians? When you demand that, you can expect people to take a closer look at your own behavior and when people see that you’ve done some nice ethnic cleansing of your own, well, they oppose giving you anything and rightfully accuse you of being a hypocritical thug.
If Jews wiped out every Arab in the world does that automatically discount the Holocaust?
It would surely make them a bit hypocritical if they would constantly talk about it and demand Germany to pay them reparations, give them lands but ignore their own crimes, yes.
Are blogs meant for spirited debate or for you to throw anti-Armenian temper tantrums whenever anyone makes a good point? The subject at hand was your consistent improper use of various dubious sources. You continue to respond to it with "Armenians killed people". This is like trying to debate a brick wall.
You haven’t made a good point, and you’re not debating any of the point I’ve made. You don’t argue that the historians who say that the Armenians committed ethnic cleansing before, during and after World War I are wrong, you just nag and try to change the subject.
Guess what: I’m not interesting in playing that game.
So, when are you going to apologize for the horrific crimes against humanity your ancestors admitted before, during and after World War I; when are you going to organize large movements forcing the Armenian government to pay reparations to the relatives of Muslims who suffered?
Never? Thought so.
Meanwhile, just keep repeating that what happened was genocide (by relying on Armenian sources, forged documents and wartime propagada, which is not a problem to you of course: as long as it serves the Armenian goal of a Greater Armenia as illustrated by Sassounian) and please continue to ignore the fact that the Armenians committed ethnic cleansing, were then relocated and started complaining afterwards (and before) that they were massacred while, in fact, they were the ones who started the massacring and who continued doing so, all while the Ottoman leaders ordered the army to protect the Armenian deportees.
As Prof. McCarthy points out, it’s interesting to see that the Ottomans actually punished many of those who committed crimes against Armenians, while the Armenians celebrated and continue to celebrate the thugs who killed innocent Muslims as heroes.
22
MewMillion
December 18, 2007 @ 5:21 pm CET
"Wrong again: what Armenia did. Azerbaijan was attacked."
So I guess the Baku-Sumgayit pogroms which killed hundreds of Armenians and forced hundreds of thousands from their homes in February 1988 before anything else occured to Azeris was just a walk in the park? Meanwhile Nagorno-Karabakh itself has always been populated by a supermajority of Armenians. To say Armenians occupy NK, when in fact it’s under the control of it’s local people and much of NK proper is defended by their own local armed forces, just doesn’t work. Land cannot be occupied by those who live there. The outlying districts are a different story, but it is always said they will be returned at the end of the war. It just isn’t feasible or possible to hand it all back unilaterally and immediately withdraw from the entire region (though how can Karabakh Armenians withdraw from Karabakh when they are native to it?) and think everything will be fine.
All this talk of give the lands back right now without a real plan of action that can be mutually agreed on is just empty rhetoric, as such a sudden change would result in more chaos in the region. I do hope an accord can be worked out and Azeris return to those lands. The OSCE mediators have proposed a set of proposals which they foresee as the only way to have a chance at solving the conflict and I think those are reasonable.
"you can expect people to take a closer look at your own behavior and when people see that you’ve done some nice ethnic cleansing of your own"
As has been pointed out, Karabakh was mutual ethnic cleansing pure and simple- which sadly has roots in the ethnic cleansing of Armenians from Azerbaijan. After Baku-Sumgayit there was also the illegal destruction of numerous Armenian villages north of Karabakh which is now completely devoid of Armenians. A fair assessment of NK would take all this into account. Nobody can claim any sort of moral superiority in the NK conflict, as you continuously attempt to ascribe to Azeris. Azeris calling Armenians ethnic cleansers in NK is pot : kettle = black.
"So, when are you going to apologize for the horrific crimes against humanity your ancestors admitted before, during and after World War I"
Who are MY ancestors? My ancestors are those who I am directly descended from. Quite a few of them actually weren’t in Anatolia in 1915 and so had no part in the events. Some of my female ancestors were though sadly- they saw their fathers killed and were sent to the Syrian desert where they barely survived. Indicting MY ancestors in this is needlessly turning things personal. Just another attempt to raise the temperature of an already hot and sensitive topic. I don’t agree with Armenians telling Turks their ancestors are murderers either, as everything should be taken on an individual basis and the vast majority of Turks and Armenians had nothing to do with any of this.
23
P. Connolly
December 18, 2007 @ 5:58 pm CET
All of this challenging of Michael on his sources is totally overbaked, in my view. There are so many sources for the fact that the Armenians colluded with the enemy and attacked not only Moslem Turks but even other Armenians who refused to go along with them. Commenters on the Armenian side continue to attack Michael on his sources; all that matters is whether it happened or not! So if you wish to argue that it didn’t happen, why don’t you just come out and deny it openly? SAY IT!! All you know how to do is launch personal attacks - this is a ploy to avoid real discussion of the issue. All that matters is whether it happened or not.
The conduct of the Armenians in the decades leading up to 1915 is not introuduced to justify the Turkish response. But it does prove that the "genocide" label can never be used to describe these events. That’s the issue.
24
Sefer Tan
December 18, 2007 @ 10:51 pm CET
In order to address the ‘simple’ challenges I read above, since JUDGE (not Lawyer) Samuel A. Weems can no more respond to these, I am sharing with you his open and honest response he had provided to his “Armenian Fans” in the past…… I wonder whether that ‘coward’ ever came out of the dark he was hiding in, ever accepted the invitation to go to Arkansas to debate what he had to say, and had the courage of his convictions to face Judge Samuel A. Weems in a public place where "ordinary citizens" could make the final determination of just who is a truth teller and who is liar and a slander! I do not think he did. Because, we have always seen that such ‘cowards’ are good in one thing only, “insult people and launch personal attacks”! THE ARMENIAN HATE MAIL & JUDGE SAM WEEMS’ REPLY
Judge Sam Weems provided the following response to one of his legions of Armenian "fans," after receiving the message through the Turkish Forum. He revealed a public retraction and apology made by The Arkansas Democrat Gazette (Sunday March, 22, page 2B), which proved once and for all that he was not and has "never been a felon," as the Armenians charged, in their typical attempts to discredit any and all whose views run contrary to their carefully orchestrated Con Job.
The Armenian Hate Mail: From: MusicDotCm@(withheld).comMessage-ID: <14d.e5c621c.2a21c562@cs.com>Subject: "Armenia: The Great Deception" Few lessons on propaganda: - You want to make sure the author is not a disbarred attorney and a convicted felon. - You want to make sure you don’t look suspicious by establishing a company solely for printing one propaganda book–i.e., "stjohnspress.com" - You need to be able to explain how an ordinary citizen gains access to archives around the world, and, very strangely, is able to read and research in Russian, French, old and new Turkish, and presumable Armenian too, since he wanted access to these archives. Are there translators? Who are they? What are their names and qualifications? Unless this book is to comfort you in your denials, it is a shameful and absolutely cowardly act of incompetent propaganda. Your making The Recognition much easier than you think. Thank you for your attention.
Judge Sam Weems’ Reply: To:
Starting in 1919 you Armenians became expert in such back alley craven attacks in the dead of night on Americans so that no one will know who you are. You place me in very distinguished company. Permit me to prove exactly the kind of "cowardly misfit" you are:
1. If you will be so kind as to state in plain and direct language that I am a felon and sign your name (please provide your address) — I will be delighted to send you an invitation to come on down to Arkansas. I will give you the opportunity to prove in the light of day your typical Armenian great lie! I promise that my invitation will be one that you will not be able to ignore. Call me a felon and be man enough-brave enough — and have the personal courage enough — to sign your name and give your address, before you attempt to smear my name with your typical Armenian hate filled made up tall tales! Come out of hiding and identify yourself if you are a real man! I welcome the opportunity to send you an invitation from one of our courts of law and I look forward to seeing you before a jury to let you explain yet another typical wild and made up tall tale based on nothing more than your Armenian bloated hot air.
2. You wrote "make sure you don’t look suspicious by establishing a company solely for printing one propaganda book i.e. St John Press." In simple language that even you can understand — you are just plain "goofy" and "ignorant" to make such a bird-brained comment! Clearly you don’t know one single thing about my book or my publisher, and you have opened your typical Armenian corrupt mouth and put your filthy foot into it.
St. John Press is part of a very large Texas Company that occupies the entire 7th floor of an important Dallas, Texas commercial building. Isn’t this an amazing accomplishment for a one-book company? Here is one additional fact for you to chew on: This one book will grow to five over the next few years. If you had read my book, which I know for a fact that you haven’t - you would see that my book, Armenia-Secrets of a "Christian" Terrorist State —The Armenian Great Deception Series — Volume I — is based on Armenian records. You can look forward to four more books to complete my series that tells it all.
Why don’t you have the courage and honor to challenge specific issues I have written about, rather than just attacking me? But then you Armenians have been attacking Americans who discover truth about you for a long time, and it has become your typical pattern! You started telling lies about future president, Herbert Hoover, in 1919 and your character and physical attacks on Americans who speak the truth about your tiny speck of a state continue to this very day. I reveal a long list of Americans you Armenians have dishonestly and unfairly attacked in my book. This is so typical of you cowardly beggars who want other people to give you handouts just because you lie and claim to be the first Christian State on earth. Why don’t you Armenians go to work like people from the rest of the world rather than mooch money for your 150 year-old terrorist homeland that the Russians gave to you after they killed off the real Muslim owners?
3. You ask how an "ordinary citizen gains access to archives around the world, and very strangely, is able to read and research in Russian, French, old and new Turkish, and presumable Armenian too, since he wanted access to these archives. Are there translators? Who are they? What are their names and qualifications?" I did my research exactly like your self-proclaimed and self-anointed Armenian historian did it. Do you want to know more? "Access around the world" is simple. London, Rome, Paris, Moscow, Istanbul, Ankara, and Washington, D.C. — just ask and anyone of them will welcome an "ordinary citizen" to come and research, and that is exactly how I did it. The employees in each of these archives I mentioned will also help you in many ways. You really should try it sometime before you jump to your conclusions and assumptions and attack an "ordinary citizen" just because he tells truth about your pathetic small state. I take great personal pride in the fact that I am an "ordinary citizen" of the United States of America. An "ordinary citizen" who is fed up with giving you Armenians billions of my tax dollars in handouts while you are double dealing the United States of America. I not only state that you Armenians are a bunch of double dealers — I prove it!
Then, there is Armenia and their terrorist organization, The Armenian Revolutionary Federation, you Armenians have headquartered in Boston. Perhaps you can answer the question: Why can’t your terrorist organization be housed in Armenia and why is it in the United States at all? Certainly, after September 11th, there is no place in the United States for an admitted "terrorist" organization of any kind! When are you going to move your base of terrorism out of the great country of the United States? "Ordinary citizens" of the United States don’t want a gaggle of terrorists of any kind in our country. Move your terrorists back to Armenia where they belong. After all, Armenians today are double dealing the United States by selling material to Iran to help them make weapons of mass destruction. Your terrorist organization belongs and fits right in there! You Armenians are well aware that you keep your achieves under lock and key so that no "ordinary citizen" from anywhere in the world can ever do research in either Armenia or Boston.
What are you people hiding from us "ordinary citizens? What are you afraid we will find in your archives? You should also know that you Armenians are in the lowest of classes of people in the world for keeping your proof of your terrorist activities so secret. This secret Armenian conduct is one of the reasons why I titled my book Armenia-Secrets of A "Christian" Terrorist State.
I was able to research and discover the truth about your fake "ancient 150 year old homeland." Any "ordinary citizen" has translators available to him or her if they are needed when they do detailed research. That is exactly what your own self proclaimed historian did and so did I. You bellow and bray about wanting to know "who did my translation — What are their names and qualifications?" That is none of your business! The real question is what is it I have written (in specifics) that isn’t true? Had you read my book, which I know for certain that you have not, you could then ask intelligent questions without making a character attack upon me and making a total fool out of yourself. What tree in Armenia did you fall out of and how high up were you when you fell on your head to ask such silly and juvenile questions? 4. You make the off-the-wall statement: "Unless this book is to comfort you in your denials, it is a shameful and absolutely cowardly act of incompetent propaganda. You’re making Recognition much easier than you think." Permit me to prove that you are a mindless moron and an intellectually dishonest dimwit! You have made this wild and made up comment about a book neither you, nor any Armenian read. You are the cowardly-craven individual making typical Armenian hydrophobia claims regarding a book that you do not have a single clue about what is in it. I even doubt you have the IQ to even read a book much less understand one. You refuse to reveal your identity and you hide in the dark as all cravens do. My personal experience is that this is so typical of Armenians. You claim my book "is a shameful and absolutely cowardly act of incompetent propaganda." Since you haven’t read the book let’s talk about facts your slimy imbecilic-racist mouth calls "incompetent propaganda." Let’s you and I deal with absolute truth:
I — Admit or deny that it was a high priest of the Armenian Church who first made-up and told the great lie that the Ottomans were massacring Armenians in Anatolia. Proof of this fact, which is in my book, is that your high priest concocted and started telling this tall tale 3 days after the Ottoman government announced it was removing disloyal Armenians who were helping the invading Russians. Your Armenian forefathers pretended to be loyal Ottoman friends and neighbours by day but in truth were disloyal cowardly traitors by night. I notice that you Armenians never once admit that you were helping the Russians in your greedy, get something for nothing, land grab attempt and this is why the Ottomans threw your forefathers out of the country. Armenians were never much of a people and could never accomplish land grabs on their own. Armenians continue today whining to foreign Christian powers begging help to steal Muslim lands. Shame on you because there will never be peace in the Near East because you teach your children to hate from birth and want lands for nothing like you do! The terrible truth is that you Armenians will not admit this great truth and acknowledge that Armenians murdered, in cold blood, far more Muslims than your people were killed by the Ottomans or others. Here is the rest of the story that you Armenians want to keep hidden from Christians around the world: Your high priest started telling his made up tall tale almost a full six weeks before a single Armenian behind the Ottoman army packed a bag to leave. Clearly there could not have been a massacre as your state owned church claims. I have the documented proof of this fact from the archives in Moscow, London, Paris, and Washington, D. C. What do you say about that?
II — Admit or deny that you pathetic Armenians are attempting to jump on the Jewish "genocide" bandwagon in an attempt to fleece and deceive the Christian world out of even more billions of dollars. How do you explain the fact that more than 100,000 of your Armenian forefathers voluntarily joined the Nazi Army as far back as the mid 1930s and fought for Hitler’s racial pure state until the end of the war in 1945? Armenians supported Hitler by fighting the forces of freedom on the battlefields of Europe. Your forefathers who were Armenian Nazis were also very good at capturing Jews to send to the death camps. Your Armenian forefathers even began a weekly radio broadcast from Berlin in 1935 called "Armenia. This broadcast was a regular program every week until the Nazis lost the war in 1945. This broadcast was an example of the "incompetent propaganda" of which you bray about and it was your own forefathers who did it. The sad fact is your own forefathers were preaching racial/ethnic purity and millions of good and innocent people were murdered because of it. And you Armenians want a genocide memorial in Washington, D.C. That is pathetic because your Armenian forefathers were the partners with the Nazis and helped create the real genocide. I have the documented proof of this fact from the archives in Moscow, London, Paris, and Washington, D.C. What do you say about that? You Armenians are some of the world’s best con artists to ever live on planet earth. How can you Armenians keep a straight face in creating your U.S. genocide memorial two blocks from my White House in Washington, D.C.? What did the United States have to do with anything in the Ottoman Empire in 1915? The United States was never at war with the Ottoman Empire in1915 — then or ever. The United States was at war with you Armenians as a part of the Soviet Union for many years though. You dare to call what I write "incompetent propaganda?" The Armenian genocide memorial is a great fraud and scam from day one. It is a fake and is nothing more than another effort to deceive and fleece the Christian taxpayers of the United States out of even more billions of their hard-earned dollars. And to think — your Armenian forefathers helped create the real genocide and now you want to cash in on the horror of what your forefathers did to the Jewish race. Shame on you Armenians for doing such an evil thing!
III — Admit or deny that today there are more Armenian churches in Muslim Turkey than there are Armenian Christian churches in Christian Armenia. How do you explain the fact that Armenia doesn’t allow freedom of religion to members of Islam, Judaism nor other branches of the Christian church other than their one an only state owned church? How do you explain the persecution of other Christian churches except the one and only Armenian state owned and controlled church? How do you explain the fact that today in Armenia more than 95% of the people there are now ethnic pure Armenian? You Armenians learned well from your Nazi partners in World War II now didn’t you? I have the documented proof about these facts. What do you say about that?
IV — Admit or deny the $1 billion plus dollars the Russians gave Armenia in military hardware to make a sneak attack on Muslim Azerbaijan? How do you explain the fact that after your tiny Armenia obtained the more than $1 billion dollars in military assistance and your pitiful little state stole more than 20% of a neighbour’s lands by armed force you drove more than one million poor Muslims from their homes. You Armenians call this a "holy war" and didn’t pay these Muslims one penny in compensation. What kind of Christians are you to commit such acts of terror? Christ would never approve of such conduct and you know it! Thereafter you Armenians did the following to gain big brother’s protection from the Muslims after your surprise attack stealing their lands: How do you explain what your kinsmen in Armenia did as to the following? - Invited the Russians into your tiny state to build two army bases and today they station their troops there? - Invited the Russians to come in and build two military air bases. Today there are 24 Russian MIG jet fighter aircraft there? - Invited the Russians to bring in a large number of their surface to air missile batteries and they are there today? - The fact Armenians and Iranians are fronting business firms in Armenia for the Russians that sell equipment and technology to Iran that can be used to build weapons of mass destruction in clear violation of United States law? Since you Armenians love the Russians so much why should American taxpayers (like me) give your tiny state one more cent of our tax dollars in foreign aid? We have given you more than $1.5 billion of our dollars over the past eleven years already. Isn’t it past time to let your fellow traveller Russian blood brothers keep up Armenia? I have the documented proof of this fact from an official United States congressional study report. What do you say about that?
V — Admit or deny the truth that Armenia has never been more than a vassal state controlled by someone else throughout history. You claim an "ancient homeland" as your matter of right provided some foreign government (like the Russians) come in and give you someone else’s lands. If we Americans listen to you and do what you are asking us to do in the Near East we will have to give Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California and parts of several other states to the Mexico because those are their "ancient homelands" too! That wasn’t that long ago as compared to the three thousand years you want to go back and claim for your lands in the Near East. But that isn’t the worst part for you Armenians is it? The rest of us Americans will have to give up all our lands and give them to the Native Americans who were here before us because that is their "ancient homeland", right? That means even you small but loud gaggle off Armenians living here will have to return to your less than 200-year old "ancient homeland" in Armenia. You know and I know that you will never support lands in America for Native Americans or Mexicans for their "ancient homeland" so why should anyone listen to your counterfeit claim for ancient homelands of three thousand years ago? You know and I know that the United States government isn’t about to give Mexico one inch of land and neither is our government going to give Native Americans one inch of land either. The same logic applies to Turkey and they aren’t going to give Armenia one inch of their lands. I suggest you take a look at the Lausanne Peace Treaty that took place in July 24, 1923 (See "Ataturk" by Andrew Mango page 387). It is past time for you Armenians to get a life and love your fellow man as your Bible teaches you to do. VI — Admit or deny that several American eyewitness saw more than one million Armenians being removed for helping the Russians and who left the Ottoman lands alive? The question must be asked — Who do you believe — Americans who saw the removed Armenians departing the Ottoman lands or Armenians who have created a fake "genocide industry" just to fleece and deceive the Christian world by using this phantom — fabricated story to get money? I have the documented proof of this fact from the archives in Moscow, London, Rome, Paris, and Washington, D.C. What do you say about that?
VII — Admit or deny the Armenians claim that 1.5 million of your people were massacred in 1915 in Anatolia and that this is more people than who lived there at the time? How do you explain the fact that Armenians, seeking handouts, claim there were more than one million refugees who were removed from Anatolia — isn’t this Armenian new math because these millions can’t be both dead and refugees even by your count! This entire Armenian genocide claim is as bogus as a three-dollar bill and you know it! How about Turkish suffering — how about their dead? Oh, yes, they were not Christian though, were they? I have the documented proof of this fact from the archives in Moscow, London, Rome, Paris, and Washington, D.C. What do you say about that?
VIII — Admit or deny that you Armenians teach your children to hate Turks from birth? This isn’t a Christian act now is it? IX — If tiny Armenia was truly the first Christian state on earth why in the world doesn’t your state owned church teach love and forgiveness? Even in Christ’s time there was the separation of church and state. Armenia must separate its church and state if the true message of Christ is to be taught there. This is why your church has engaged in terrorism from the mid-1800s up to and including this very day. The Armenian Church is nothing more than a front and an extension of your state run terror machine. MusicDotCm@(withheld).com or whoever you really are — these are just a few of the facts I write about in my book. It really doesn’t matter who I am just as it doesn’t matter who you are - what is important is the message and the TRUTH I write about. I hope you read my book and find the truth about how your brain has been washed in Muslim blood. Armenians are so full of hate for Turks you don’t even know what you are talking about. You never question or bother to first seek the truth for yourselves. I do hope my research will shed some light to your twisted minds that are filled with such hate. I have based each and every conclusion I made on historical evidence. That is what matters, not who I am. The first edition of my book is almost sold out. As I asked above, if you provide me with your real name and address, I will be more than happy to ask my publisher to hold one book just for you. Permit me to make one last point: Before you attack my character about a book you haven’t read yet — ask your Armenian terrorist blood brothers back in your 150 year-old ancient home land to pay their bills. Armenia borrowed $50 million dollars at 5% interest in 1919 from the United States government and mooched another $40 million from American Christians in that same year whom your forefathers then attacked for not giving them more of American church money. You Armenians haven’t paid one red cent to us "ordinary citizens" to repay this loan yet that was made to you in good faith. However, you love the Russians so much you borrowed $100 million dollars from them in recent years and you repay these loans. WHY CAN’T YOU PAY YOUR DEBTS TO THE UNITED STATES SINCE YOU CAN PAY OFF THE RUSSIANS? We Americans have given and loaned your tiny state more dollars than the Russians have given and loaned you. When you start repaying what you owe me (and all other taxpayers here in the United States) then you have the right to challenge what I have written. And I ask you to be specific.
Until you Armenians pay your debts — keep your filth, slime and lies about me to yourself! The truth is that I didn’t write my book for you Armenians. I wrote it for the "ordinary" American Christian taxpayer whom you have deceived and cheated all these many years.
Sam Weems PS — Remember, I am extending to you an invitation to come to Arkansas to debate what you have to say — that is if you dare to come out of the dark alley you are hiding in. Do you have the courage of your convictions to face me man to man in a public place where "ordinary citizens" can make the final determination of just who is a truth teller and who is not!
25
Tamer
December 20, 2007 @ 2:17 am CET
I’m glad people are more aware of the tragedies that happened in Eastern Turkiye. It’s also great to see some scholars being more critical about facts, figures, etc.
My story is not based on a biased, fabricated, or an historians attempt to come to an understanding. It is a story shared by our family. We come from Kars in Eastern Turkiye, right on the edge of the Caucasus. My family had inhabitant the area perhaps going back to the Karsaks(Hun/Bulgar clans) that the city is named after. Note, when the Armenians settled in Eastern Turkiye, there already was Turks living in this region for several thousand years, but you will openly see Kars and maps as "Greater Armenia". They place this region on their maps because the region was under constant attack for 140 years prior to WW1. The Armenians had been and continue to be the pawns of the Russians. During the first Czarist expansion, the region was considered strategic and since the Russians had begun an ethnic cleansing of the Caucasus and other Turkic lands. The Armenians, being Orthodox, were used in the first invasion of Kars, the 2nd(1871) and during the Armenian uprising that began in the early 20th century.
My family were forced to flee during the ‘93(Ottoman year) War and return in 1914. They were stateless for 20 years. First tried Tblisi, then Tabriz and finally were welcome in Gence, Azerbaijan. After their return, the Armenian militia’s started their assault on the Black Sea, Eastern and SE Turkish cities. The East did not have a large Turkish Army presence because of Gallipoli and the French/Italian advances on the Mediterranean. The Russians tried their take again by using the Armenian legions, to contain the Caucasus and from there to region the oil resources. The legions went beyond military tasks and started a real "genocide" of killing all the young men first. My great-uncle was beheaded by his best friend, and Armenian in Subatan. Some say the Armenians were forcing other Armenians to join with them and those that opposed were killed just like Turks.(I wonder how many Armenians were killed by Armenians). The Dashnaks would raid sporadically, which severely affected the psychology of the people in the region. Even till this day, an elder’s most extreme curse would be to call someone and "Armenian" or an "English", who ironically were the weapons suppliers after the Russians left. Might sound racist, but these elders had seen the Armenians tear the stomaches of pregnant women, chop the baby into pieces, then torture the mother until she bled to death. Another great-uncle, from another sibling was the only survivor from his household. The Armenians came to their village and told the population they want to have a meeting to come to terms with the Turks. Every living soul was forced to meet at the village mosque. While everyone waited for the meeting to start, the doors were nailed shut, windows sealed and the mosque was doused with kerosene. The exact deaths are unknown, but my great-uncle was known to be the only survivor. He lived under corpses for 8 days, during that time the Armenians returned to find out if anyone was still alive. Their tactic was to use an Armenian old lady, speaking fluent Turkish, saying "balalarim burda misiniz"(my children are you here). My great-uncle had already known all of his family was dead, so he didn’t respond and managed to live until the Ottoman army finally arrived. My great-uncle was 7 years old. There were many others, separated from their children, etc. Many more died because the Armenians not only killed any Turk they can, but when they came into villages, they stole all their livestock, filled their wells with decomposed bodies(poisoned), and burned stockpiles. A great-grandparent talked about how she survived a brutal winter with only grains dissected from animal feces.
Our family had only discussed this story amongst themselves. They never had an agenda and it didn’t make sense to write a book, produce a movie and so on, because under Ataturk’s revolution, the past was the past, and the Turkish people needed to look to the future to progress. We are fortunate we had a leader like Ataturk. It is unfortunate that the Armenians had clergyman that promoted hatred, exaggerated and false depiction of events.
As these stories are told, the Armenians will hit a nerve with Turks that have lost 3 million relatives during the Armenian attacks. They may pay a few scholars and politicians to make statements, but they will never succeed in dishonoring the millions that died for their treachery…. So for some the writers that are so "critical" and "careful" in not offending the Armenians by giving into the Turks. Don’t be worried, we don’t care about what you think, we know the truth.
I recall a lecture at NYU, where the Armenian diaspora had paid a "scholar(Kaiser)" from Austria to research the "genocide". This "scholar" was an associate working on his thesis and claimed to be an expert on the Armenian Genocide, but openly stated, HE DOES NOT KNOW THE TURKISH POSITION, DOESN’T KNOW HOW MANY TURKS WERE KILLED, OR HOW THE KILLING ALL STARTED. I know this because I asked him the question and this was his exact remark. Even the moderate Armenians in the crowd gasped when he made this statement, because it was on the back of their minds too. I’m not one to believe that ALL Armenians take the "Genocide" story as truth. I’ve known one closely, Mr. Tashjian, who was kicked out of his church and banished by his community, because he spoke up about what his mother and father told him that contradicted his Armenian Community.
This "scholar" only knew how many Armenians died, but wasn’t sure how they died. He only knew they died and 1.5 million died. Isn’t this pathetic. They pay this bozo to say what they want, just like the sociologist, Taner Akcam, a Kurd with Marxist roots, claiming to be a historian, but only reads Armenian sources. I can’t entirely blame some scholars that make mistakes because of the lack of access to Turkish sources. The scholars see how diligent and fanatical the Armenians are and are confused to see the calmness for the Turks. For this, you can blame what the West calls "civilized" and what we Turks call "rational" approach that chosen. I fear that the Armenians are opening up a can of worms thinking that opening a "debate" on their one-sided story will convert all Turks to join their cause and they will be able to reclaim Eastern lands in Turkiye. What they may ending finding is that the Turks have not come to terms to what the Armenians did to them. 1,000 years of garnishing friendship, helping the Armenians maintain their culture, language, and they repay by siding with the Russians and result in the killing of 3 million Turks. I personally think the diaspora is gullible and rather then closing the wounds and treat the Turks with respect, just as the Turks had done, they are agitating them and helping them release a kinetic rage that was held back for so long by accusing them of something the Armenians did.
26
MewMillion
December 20, 2007 @ 3:16 pm CET
To quote Weems as he is quoted above:
"You wrote "make sure you don’t look suspicious by establishing a company solely for printing one propaganda book i.e. St John Press." In simple language that even you can understand — you are just plain "goofy" and "ignorant" to make such a bird-brained comment! Clearly you don’t know one single thing about my book or my publisher, and you have opened your typical Armenian corrupt mouth and put your filthy foot into it. St. John Press is part of a very large Texas Company that occupies the entire 7th floor of an important Dallas, Texas commercial building. Isn’t this an amazing accomplishment for a one-book company?"
I want you all to go to the St. John’s Press website today… you will notice that it doesn’t exist, and nor has it existed since shortly after Weems’s death. Isn’t this amazing for an over one book publishing occupier of the entire 7th floor of an important Dallas, Texas commercial building?
27
Sefer Tan
December 20, 2007 @ 4:53 pm CET
Ms/Mr. MewMillion, (I would feel privileged and honored if I could write your name here)…. I admire your great determination and effort to dig into that ‘very’ statement of Judge Samuel A. Weems and find out about the current status of the mentioned “St. John’s Press”! What great work you have accomplished!
Please kindly do me another favor and inform “us all” (I want you all to go to the St. John’s Press website today…) where this ‘big energy giant ENRON’ is nowadays! - In just 15 years, Enron grew from nowhere to be America’s seventh largest company, employing 21,000 staff in more than 40 countries. – BBC News, Thursday, 22 August, 2002, 16:59 GMT 17:59 UK I wonder whether this is the only point where you feel strong and wise enough to respond to in Judge Samuel A. Weems’ reply to the cowardly written ‘Armenian Hate Mail’.
How about some decent and honest answers to those questions he brought forward in his reply? Not that I am really keen to initiate a new “dialogue of the deaf” where you will follow the Armenian Diaspora’s instructions and try to put me under pressure with your fabricated accusations, but it is hilarious and ironic to observe again that what the Armenian Diaspora always does is to either come up with a long list of very subjective questions if not accusations with the dictated purpose of putting the Turkish side under so-called pressure, or once in a while to concentrate on a very minor and insignificant part of a correspondence and try to get some ‘food’ out of a dead spot. This is the very tactics the ‘vultures’ use instinctively – to survive.
May I ask you, if you do not mind, whether you read Judge Samuel A. Weems’ reply in its entirety? Or, did you immediately concentrate on a minor and insignificant point you captured and hastily start writing your comment?
What is next - resort to the Armenian Diaspora’s commonplace allegations again, or launch a personal attack and insult at random a person you do not even know? However, if you really read Judge Weems’ reply to the ‘Armenian Hate Mail’, could you please share with ‘us all’ (I want you all to go to the St. John’s Press website today…) your clear and honest response to all those bullet pointed challenges he made and the straight forward questions he asked in his reply to the coward who did not even have the guts to use his own name in his mail? I would like to let you know that I will not respond to any sort of ‘provocation’ if my request above has not being answered.
28
Lazlee
December 21, 2007 @ 9:10 am CET
>>No. What Armenia and Azerbaijan did in the 1990s should have no effect on the facts of what happened between Armenia and Turkey in 1915. <<
This, of course, is the line that Armenians take because they want everything taken in snippets that support only their interpretation of events.
The events of 1990 are absolutely 100% relevant to what occurred in 1915. In 1915, Ottoman Armenians armed, clothed financed, supported and trained by Russia and France tried to ethnically cleanse southeastern Anatolia of ALL Ottoman Muslims (i.e., Turks, Kurds, Circassians, Alevis, Laz, etc.). Their efforts to ethnically cleanse southeastern Anatolia continued until 1920. In fact, after the armistice of WWI, the French clothed, armed and inserted the "Armenian Legion" into the very southern portion of eastern Anatolia to do their dirty deeds. Much to the chagrin of the French, the Armenians comitted such vile and reprehensible atrocities against Ottoman Muslims in the area that even the French were repulsed and refused to continue supporting the Armenians. Imagine that! The French were REPULSED!
The list documenting the 529,000 Ottoman Muslims killed in eastern Anatolia is just a list of those killed by Armenian militias after WWI. After the Bolshevik revolution, the Russian military withdrew and left armed Armenians to continue raping and pillaging at will throughout the countryside until the nationalist forces under Ataturk forced them out. Because the Armenians just left the dead littering the streets, the nationalist forces could photograph (and did) and compile lists of the dead.
As for Weems, Hortonian just raises a red herring and focuses on that– a typical Armenian tactic, which is to focus on one point in the article that has nothing to do with the main subject at hand and divert all attention to that.
For those who feel Weems was not of a virtuous character, go read publications by Pastermadjian, Boghos Nubar and Katchzanouni. They were all proud Armenian revolutionaries during and after WWI. Their publications tell you exactly what they were up to and who they fought against and killed. And everything these men (Pastermadjian, Katchzanouni and Boghos Nubar) write about their activities in different publications are consistent with each other.
And, let’s make this very clear: Pastermadjian was an Ottoman Armenian who was a representative from southeastern Anatolia to the Ottoman Parliament when WWI broke out.
Weems’ character is not the issue. This issue is whether the assertion cited in his book and the source he used to make that assertion are valid.
Red herring arguments are only for those who have no other.
29
Lazlee
December 21, 2007 @ 9:15 am CET
Somehow the sentence between these two paragraphs was left out of the post–
"…compile lists of the dead.
As for Weems, Hortonian just …."
The events, and the ethnic cleansing Armenians engaged in after invading Azerbaijan are entirely relevant because now the Armenians are beginning to establish a pattern and practice of Armenians invading and then engaging in ethnic cleansing in an effort to establish an ethnically pure state.
30
Michael van der Galien
December 21, 2007 @ 10:27 am CET
Well said Lazlee.
Sefer Tan: I’m sure that this person will conveniently ignore your comments. Remember: it’s not about the truth to them, it’s about spreading lies and propaganda. They’re not interested in anything that shows them that they’re incorrect, nor do they wish to refute any of the points made. They’re liars and distorters. Goebbels would be proud of them.
31
Sefer Tan
December 21, 2007 @ 6:45 pm CET
Michael; you hit the nail on the head! What else can I add to that? Nil, nada, niets, nothing, hicbir sey…..
This is neither my first experience with such sickening behaviour, nor is it going to be the last. I have been involved in quite a few mail discussions with such miserable people. Well, discussions? They do not know what a discussion or what a debate means! They do not want to know. They are only interested in making disgusting accusations and bombard us with the questions dictated by their deep pocketed Armenian Diaspora. They are interested in one thing only - fill their own pockets with money they beg from other ‘ordinary’ tax-payers! We take them seriously and try to address all they ask. On the other hand, in their reply they do not even mention that they read your response, but instead, they come up with even more disgusting accusations. If they can not accuse, then they start insulting.
All they want is to hurt the ‘Turk’. It is not important which Turk, but anything Turkish must be punished; even those who do not have anything to do with their “slander”; even those who are in favor of the Armenians. The historical facts and ‘why’ questions are not important, only their ‘hysterical facts’ count. There is no point in discussion. But we memorized those ‘double-dealers’. We are confident with our values, we are confident and in peace with our honorable history. We will drop their mask one day and show their ‘coward’ faces first to them and then to the whole world! You wait and see…
32
babanian
December 25, 2007
Tamer, "when the Armenians settled in Eastern Turkiye, there already was Turks living in this region for several thousand years" LOL
Keep on stating these statements and you will lose credibility before you finish spelling the word "credible".
FULL TEXT OF THE IAGS RESOLUTION
WHEREAS the denial of genocide is widely recognized as the final stage of genocide, enshrining impunity for the perpetrators of genocide, and demonstrably paving the way for future genocides;
WHEREAS the Ottoman genocide against minority populations during and following the First World War is usually depicted as a genocide against Armenians alone, with little recognition of the qualitatively similar genocides against other Christian minorities of the Ottoman Empire;
BE IT RESOLVED that it is the conviction of the International Association of Genocide Scholars that the Ottoman campaign against Christian minorities of the Empire between 1914 and 1923 constituted a genocide against Armenians, Assyrians, and Pontian and Anatolian Greeks.
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Association calls upon the government of Turkey to acknowledge the genocides against these populations, to issue a formal apology, and to take prompt and meaningful steps toward restitution.
http://www.greeknewsonline.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=7853
33
Eric
December 28, 2007
Eric…
Have really enjoyed your site with the marvellous posts and information. Very thought provoking….
34
bernard hills
December 29, 2007
bernard hills…
Thanks for the nice read, keep up the interesting posts…..
December 17, 2007
Source: PoliGazette
