A centuries-old dispute between Armenians and Turks is playing a part in the race for the congressional seat that represents most of Pasadena.
In recent weeks, Republican challenger Charles Hahn picked up thousands of dollars at a fundraiser thrown by a Turkish-American businessman who runs a Web site denying the World War I-era Armenian genocide took place.
"I want to bring all sides of the issue to the party: Armenians, Turkish-Americans, the Turkish and Armenian governments," said Hahn. "We need to all work together in solving the problem."
The fundraiser was put together by Ergun Kirlikovali, an Orange County businessman who runs several Web sites, . including "www.falsegenocide.com."
The ideology represents a sharp contrast to bills sponsored by incumbent Adam Schiff, D-Pasadena. Over the past two years, Schiff has sponsored legislation that would put the U.S. government on record as officially recognizing that the genocide took place.
Schiff, who has been strongly supported by his Armenian-American constituents, brought the fundraiser to the attention to the local Armenian-language media because he considers the Kirlikovali's views troubling.
"This is a pretty narrow special interests group that is devoted to eradicating the memory of genocide," said Schiff. "This is a way of sending a message and pushing back against that idea."
Schiff's legislation has been controversial. The American-allied Turkish government has steadfastly claimed that the deaths of Armenians in the break-up of the Ottoman Empire during World War I were part of a civil war with casualties on both sides. Armenians and most historians have characterized it as a concerted government effort to eliminate Armenians from a new Turkish nation.
Hahn raised about $5,700 from the fundraiser and from other contributions from Kirlikovali. All of the people contributing at the fundraiser listed addresses outside Schiff's district, with two listing addresses in Maryland and New York.
Hahn also received $2,300 from the national Turkish Coalition USA Political Action Committee, which opposed Schiff's legislation. The total contributions make up more than 10 percent of his total fundraising.
Schiff's bill failed in the 2007 congressional session, but was reintroduced this year and approved by the House Foreign Affairs Committee. If it does not pass in the general session this year Schiff plans to reintroduce it again next year.
Hahn said he does not deny that the Armenian genocide took place, but says he would not have supported Schiff's legislation. He said he would like to introduce legislation that would be approved by Armenian and Turkish-American groups alike, though he would not say what specifically the legislation would say or accomplish.
He said the fundraiser's attendance was not exclusively members of the Turkish-American community.
Kirlikovali said the main reason he and others at the fundraiser are supporting Hahn is because they dislike Schiff's legislation. However, he is also a registered Republican and agrees with Hahn's tax policies, he said.
"I find Schiff's stand racist and dishonest," said Kirlikovali. "I'd like to support someone who can defeat him."
He said he does not deny that Armenians were killed in great numbers during World War I but said that Turks were killed in greater numbers.
"I lost most of my grandparents' family on both sides," said Kirlikovali. "It is the same for other Turks ... just because we sit quietly and grieve instead of making noise about it does not mean we haven't suffered."
He added that Schiff had introduced the legislation without regard for Turkish-American relations just to "appease some radicals in a California city," a likely reference to Glendale, which has a large population of Armenians.
dan***@sgvn.com
Comments:
Charles Webster
Pierrefonds, Canada
#1
Thursday Oct 30
I find it extremely disturbing that the word "racist" is gratuitously used by this Turkish-American individual against Adam Schiff who is simply stating a well known and incontestable fact, whereas Mr. Kirlikovali is clearly mobilizing his efforts in a racist agenda of denying a genocide against the Armenians ever happened.
Justin
Clayton, CA
#2
Thursday Oct 30
Adam Schiff is a dip****.
The "Armenian genocide", similarly, is bull****.
A lot of Armenians died, but the Armenians and their Russian allies killed many Turkish civilians during the same period.
Either there were no genocides, or there were 2 GENOCIDES -- 1 against the Turks by the Armenians and one going the other way. The Armenians refuse this simple fact. They want to have their cake and eat it, too: the Turks must be demons, and the Armenians angels.
The Armenians consistently whitewash their history. On the other hand, educated Turks realize many, many Armenians died; we're just trying to keep the narrative of the history free from bias. The use of the term genocide, and particularly the comparisons to the holocaust, are not accurate.
So, hopefully some truth will make its way into the argument. Whenever you see an Armenian pratting about genocide, you can be sure you're hearing either lies or a half-truth.
Booger
Pasadena, CA
#3
Thursday Oct 30
You know what? This is AMERICA! Take your 19th century crap back to where you came from. You should have fought harder or at least stayed in your own country and changed everything. Americans fought and died for freedom. Johnny come lately need not apply
Gary
Torrance, CA
#4
Thursday Oct 30
You know I keep hearing this moronic argument that it happened during World War I and there were also many Turks that died therefore it wasn't a genocide.Ok,then using the same reasoning and premises we can certainly say that the holocaust wasn't a genocide because it happened during World War 2 and more German died then Jews.
The definition of a genocide is :the DELIBERATE and SYSTEMATIC extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.
So Mr. Kirlikovali & Hahn grow up!
Hijinx
Los Angeles, CA
#5
Thursday Oct 30
The problem with branding everything as "racist" is the inevitable dilution of the word, as has occurred over the past twenty or so years. Just like the idiotic Pomona councilperson who said DUI checkpoints were reminiscent of "Nazi" tactics, use of these words to describe everything that does not sit well with us waters it down, so that when a real racist occurs, or an actual fuhrer commits a genocide, those acts are lumped in with unpleasant political campaigns and traffic checkpoints.
Mr Beemer
Los Angeles, CA
#6
Thursday Oct 30
Charles Hahn has found a new job that has a double pay, one would be the US governemnt, the other will be the Turkish government which support and pays American citizens to close their eyes on the deaths of 1.5 million Armenians who died, but before that were robbed, raped, tortured,were thrown on Syrian deserts for death marches, executed, hanged, and Armenian Historical lands were lost which was Eastern Turkey. Some of the cities that is very easy to recognize are Ani, Kars, Van, Adana and all surroundings. Denial is victimizing the victim consistently again and again. Mr. Kirlikovali should read some books to realize that Armenians were killed by Ottoman Government, but Turks were at war on multuple front during WW1. War is not Genocide. Read the definition of genocide.
Pasadena Resident
Hermosa Beach, CA
#7
Thursday Oct 30
There's a large Armenian population in Pasadena... there's no significant Turkish population there.
WHY would a politician in a city full of Armenians take the stance that the genocide never happened? It just seems very apparent to me that Hahn is not in touch with the population in which he is running... Would you want a politician like that to represent you in Congress?
Avo
Covina, CA
#8
Thursday Oct 30
These Turks that are complaining about Schiff are obviously radicals that cant come to face the truth, the truth of their republic being built on the ashes of over 1.5 million Armenians. Turkey continues to be one of the most inhumane countries, with laws prohibiting members of society from talking freely about the Armenian Genocide, punishable by death. Furthermore the country continues to violate womens rights, not allowing women to be free and treating them as property. As Americans we cant support inhumanity, especially a country that blinds itself to its inhumane acts and calls it self a democracy, thats like spitting on America.
Hahn obviously does not know what hes doing.
Schiff is obviously the better choice.
We cant allow anyone that supports inhumanity to have any sort of govermental power.
CALIFORNIA RESIDENT
Los Angeles, CA
#9
Thursday Oct 30
Pasadena Resident wrote:
There's a large Armenian population in Pasadena... there's no significant Turkish population there.
WHY would a politician in a city full of Armenians take the stance that the genocide never happened? It just seems very apparent to me that Hahn is not in touch with the population in which he is running... Would you want a politician like that to represent you in Congress?
I don't think most politicians care about the people they're suppose to be representing at any level of government.
Pasadena Resident
Hermosa Beach, CA
#10
Thursday Oct 30
CALIFORNIA RESIDENT wrote:
I know, you're right... but its very frustrating. At least I really don't believe he has a shot at winning...
Bob
San Diego, CA
#11
Thursday Oct 30
The fact that it happened is not in question. Even with the deniers speaking out. It is going to take a lot and a long time if ever for both groups to get over it especially the Armenians as they have suffered the most.
just-Rog
[I VOTED!]
“God Bless America”
#12
Thursday Oct 30
The trouble is, the Armenians just won't let it go. They keep re-hasing ancient history to work themselves into a hatefull frenzy. Their like a broken record that just keeps going over and over on the same track. Armenians have no forgivness in them, and thats why they are a cursed people. Why they won't forgive and forget is beyond me. Hell, everybody that went through the so called "genocide" in 1915 is dead now. And if their not dead they ought to be. Filling their relatives with fairy tales of mass slaughter to inrage the younger generations into doing something illegal. Like assassinating the Turkish Ambassador, which happend a few years ago by some young Armenian filled with hate by his old Grandpa no doubt.
To the Armenian's I say, LET IT BE, get on with your own lives. You live in a new country. Why re-live something that may have happened a century ago in another part of the world far far away.
Raffi
Granada Hills, CA
#13
Thursday Oct 30
I would like to know where Mr. Kirlikovali's grandparents are from, when, and where they were killed.
Pasadena Resident
Hermosa Beach, CA
#14
Thursday Oct 30
just-Rog wrote:
The trouble is, the Armenians just won't let it go. They keep re-hasing ancient history to work themselves into a hatefull frenzy. Their like a broken record that just keeps going over and over on the same track. Armenians have no forgivness in them, and thats why they are a cursed people. Why they won't forgive and forget is beyond me. Hell, everybody that went through the so called "genocide" in 1915 is dead now. And if their not dead they ought to be. Filling their relatives with fairy tales of mass slaughter to inrage the younger generations into doing something illegal. Like assassinating the Turkish Ambassador, which happend a few years ago by some young Armenian filled with hate by his old Grandpa no doubt.
To the Armenian's I say, LET IT BE, get on with your own lives. You live in a new country. Why re-live something that may have happened a century ago in another part of the world far far away.
First of all you really should learn to spell. It's They're not their.
Second of all, if you aren't Armenian you can't begin to understand how we feel. It makes no sense to you because you don't know what we feel when we hear the Turkish government deny what the Ottoman Empire did so many years ago.
So please, take a class on grammar and educate yourself before you question why Armenians fight for the truth.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#15
Thursday Oct 30
GENOCIDE ALLEGATIONS IGNORE “THE SIX T’S OF THE TURKISH-ARMENIAN CONFLICT”
While some amongst us may be forgiven for taking the blatant and ceaseless Armenian propaganda at face value and believing Armenian falsifications merely because they are repeated so often, it is difficult and painful for someone like me, the son of Turkish survivors on both maternal and paternal sides. Those seemingly endless “War years” of 1912-1922 brought wide-spread death and destruction on to all Ottoman citizens. No Turkish family was left touched, mine included. Those nameless, faceless Turkish victims are killed for a second time today with politically motivated and baseless charges of Armenian genocide.
Allegations of Armenian genocide are racist and dishonest history. They are racist because they ignore the Turkish dead: about 3 million during WWI; around half a million of them at the hands of Armenian nationalists. And the allegations of Armenian genocide are dishonest because they simply dismiss “THE SIX T’S OF THE TURKISH-ARMENIAN CONFLICT”:
1) TUMULT (as in numerous Armenian armed uprisings between 1890 and 1920)
2) TERRORISM (by Armenian nationalists and militias victimizing Ottoman-Muslims between 1882-1920)
3) TREASON (Armenians joining the invading enemy armies as early as 1914 and lasting until 1921)
4) TERRITORIAL DEMANDS (where Armenians were a minority, not a majority, attempting to establish Greater Armenia, the would-be first apartheid of the 20th Century with a Christian minority ruling over a Muslim majority )
5) TURKISH SUFFERING AND LOSSES (i.e. those caused by the Armenian nationalists: 524,000 Muslims, mostly Turks, met their tragic end at the hands of Armenian revolutionaries during WWI, per Turkish Historical Society. This figure is not to be confused with 2.5 million Muslim dead who lost their lives due to non-Armenian causes during WWI. Grand total: more than 3 million, according to Justin McCarthy)
6) TERESET (temporary resettlement) triggered by the first five T’s above and amply documented as such; not to be equated to the Armenian misrepresentations as genocide.)
Armenians, thus, effectively put an end to their millennium of relatively peaceful and harmonious co-habitation in Anatolia with Muslims by killing their Muslim/Turkish neighbors and openly joining the invading enemy. Turks were only defending their home like any citizen anywhere would do.
Isn’t it time to stop fighting the First World War and give peace a chance?
Peace,
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Son of Turkish Survivors from Both Maternal & Paternal Side
www.turkla.com
Jodi
Los Angeles, CA
#16
Thursday Oct 30
Are any of you educated enough about this to make a valid assessment? I have studied world history at a college level, and could not disagree with some of the ridiculous and insensitive comments I am reading. My great-grandparents survived this genocide. They were being chased by the Turks, they had to leave their grandma on the porch to die. They had to march across the desert, and anyone who stopped walking was shot by turkish soldiers. They even killed babies still in the womb with their swords at the ends of their guns. It was violent, grotesque and defiantly a genocide. The Armenians did not do anything to provoke the Turks. America even helped give them back some of their land. I know our Air Base in Turkey is necessary for our safety and therefore do not think the government should recognize the Armenian Genocide because the Turks would not let us fly there (I wonder why...) if the Germans could accept that they had the holocaust, I don't understand why the Turks can't accept their own faults.
Likewise, recently, a man by the name of Hurant Dink, who was an Armenian who lived in Turkey, worked for a newspaper, and wrote and article on the Armenian genocide. He was arrested and killed. This is not exhibiting any form of Western Culture, and there is no freedom of speech. At least Americans have the right to disagree or agree no matter if a statement is true or false, however this man only spoke his opinion and was killed.
Therefore, before you all are so quick to judge and insult, I suggest you look at both sides of an argument, like any logical person would do, and then make your own assessment, after both sides of the evidence are viewed. You have to know all the facts to make such statements as I read above, and I am truly disturbed at the hate and mockery I hear about the annihilation of a group of people. This is not something to be taken lightly, and profanity won't further your argument as much as well thought out and reasoned facts. Even children can string together sentences of hateful words. It just sounds like your blindly angry than actually having an educated opinion.... just thought you'd like to know.
just-Rog
[I VOTED!]
“God Bless America”
Los Angeles, CA
#17
Thursday Oct 30
Pasadena Resident wrote:
First of all you really should learn to spell. It's They're not their.
Second of all, if you aren't Armenian you can't begin to understand how we feel. It makes no sense to you because you don't know what we feel when we hear the Turkish government deny what the Ottoman Empire did so many years ago.
So please, take a class on grammar and educate yourself before you question why Armenians fight for the truth.
I'll take your spelling criticism under advisment. Is that all you have to point out ? You Armenians are nothing but a bunch of crybabies. All you people do is whine and pout over the past. Your only good for selling gasoline and cheating people on auto repairs. Oh, and also serving as a good source of suicide. It's a known fact that if you stand next to an Armenian on the street corner and inhale really deep, your as good as deceased within a few seconds.
just-Rog
[I VOTED!]
“God Bless America”
Los Angeles, CA
#18
Thursday Oct 30
I support Turkish Products, and always will !
Truth
Riverside, CA
#19
Thursday Oct 30
To quote a great 20th Century Philosopher:
"Can't we all just get along?" - R. King
Pasadena Resident
Pasadena, CA
#20
Thursday Oct 30
just-Rog wrote:
I'll take your spelling criticism under advisment. Is that all you have to point out ? You Armenians are nothing but a bunch of crybabies. All you people do is whine and pout over the past. Your only good for selling gasoline and cheating people on auto repairs. Oh, and also serving as a good source of suicide. It's a known fact that if you stand next to an Armenian on the street corner and inhale really deep, your as good as deceased within a few seconds.
So all we're good for is selling gasoline and cheating people? So what do you do for a living? Every Armenian I know personally is extremely accomplished and educated. Sure.. there are some that sell gasoline, just as there are in every nationality.
But why am I spending time arguing with a fool like you?
just-Rog
[I VOTED!]
“God Bless America”
Los Angeles, CA
#21
Friday Oct 31
Pasadena Resident wrote:
So all we're good for is selling gasoline and cheating people? So what do you do for a living? Every Armenian I know personally is extremely accomplished and educated. Sure.. there are some that sell gasoline, just as there are in every nationality.
But why am I spending time arguing with a fool like you?
Because you know I'm right Ari
just-Rog
[I VOTED!]
“God Bless America”
Los Angeles, CA
#22
Friday Oct 31
I remember when CHER of Sonny & Cher said she was part Cherokee. What a joke, she was so ashamed of being Armenian she had to make up a lie and say she was part Native American. Everyone knows she has about as much Indian blood in her as the Easter Bunny.
Booger
Pasadena, CA
#23
Friday Oct 31
Armenian's need to get heir own culture. They try to look like Mexicans and act blacker than any black guy I know. The chicks are hot tho. I like them hairy
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#24
Friday Oct 31
I believe there is a miscommunication in this quote:“…Hahn said he does not deny that the Armenian genocide took place, but says he would not have supported Schiff's legislation…”
According to the Hahn statement on the Turkish-Armenian conflict, which was officially released to the Turkish-American community on September 20, 2008, Hahn “acknowledges Armenian suffering” without calling it a genocide; but he also acknowledges Turkish suffering in the same era and area. As you well know, not all suffering, not all killings can be classified a genocide, which term is reserved by the U.N. for a “competent tribunal” which proves “intent” after due process is allowed to take its course where the accused can cross examine the accusers’ evidence, question their witnesses, and produce the accused party’s own evidence and witnesses. This has never been done in the Turkish-Armenian case—save a Kangaroo court in occupied Istanbul.
The constant drum beat of genocide we hear today, therefore, are not based on the verdict of a “competent tribunal”, a la Nuremberg, but rather, on a kind of invisible consensus arrived at using only the Armenian version of history and under constant Armenian pressure for 90+ years. Put another way, genocide allegations reflect anti-Turkish bias amount to lynching of Turks without due process.
That is why Hahn supports the formation of a historians’ commission to sort out the complexities of the past and that is why I support him.
Ergun Kirlikovali
Son of Turkish survivors from both paternal and maternal sides
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#25
Friday Oct 31
CHARLES HAHN FOR US CONGRESS
Charles Hahn's Statement AboutThe Turkish-Armenian Conflict:
I believe in dialogue for a peaceful resolution of this controversial subject. I acknowledge the Armenian suffering. I likewise acknowledge Turkish suffering due to the same wartime conditions in that era and that area. It was a complex civil war within an even more complex world war. I believe that it is the task of historians to sort out the complexities and issues of the past, not politicians with their narrow minded political agendas. I support the proposal of the Joint Committee of Historians to investigate these events based on a proper approach of scholarship, research, dialog, and factual presentations of all sides.
I believe that these matters must be resolved through more academic research, peer review, and thoughtful, civilized debate. This means including all sides and their points-of-view of this conflict in the debate. I do not believe that acrimonious accusations, intimidation, and/or partisan legislation of one side's claims as settled history will be of any value in resolving the issue at hand. I will not tolerate harassment, intimidation, or any other aggressive, hurtful, or divisive behavior by people who cannot control their passions in this debate. This type of activity will frustrate my efforts to establish a dialog towards a solution for this issue. I will not tolerate any corruption in the press that gives unfair evaluations regarding this issue.
I support all efforts to establish dialogue between Turks and Armenians. I do not support constant anti-Turkish resolutions promoting one group's agenda, which does not give Turkish-Americans a fair evaluation. I demand freedom of speech, dialogue, and fairness as the tools to resolve this conflict. I will not tolerate name-calling, isolation, or censorship.
1 will not support any institutionalized vilification, based on partisan scholarship, of Turkish-American children.
I support the UN Resolutions regarding Azerbaijan. I support helping Azerbaijani Refugees with any humanitarian needs.
Sincerely.
Signed: Charles Hahn
“Charles Hahn For U.S. Congress, ID# C00438473”
Pasadena Resident
Hermosa Beach, CA
#27
Friday Oct 31
Booger wrote:
Armenian's need to get heir own culture. They try to look like Mexicans and act blacker than any black guy I know. The chicks are hot tho. I like them hairy
What the hell are you talking about? Armenians have a very strong sense of identity? Have you ever met an armenian?
Pasadena Resident
Hermosa Beach, CA
#28
Friday Oct 31
just-Rog wrote:
An Armenian woman with her clothes off, looks just like a Chia Pet. They don't shave their legs with a razor, they use a weed eater. Armenian women have mustaches that make Wyatt Earp's look prepubescent.
This is coming from a Turk whose ancestors were so threatened by Armenians they systematically killed them off.
bill
Oakland, CA
#30
Friday Oct 31
what Ergun Kirlikovali did was the most American thing we expect in this country.... "support the politician who supports your cause".. Looks like Armenians, who pour millions of dollars every year into the pockets of politicians in return for their support of annual "genocide bills" in the Congress are nervous about the $10,000 donated by Turkish Americans to a new comer who apparently has a chance to win against Shiff, a long time champion of Armenian causes.
AmericanGuy
Seattle, WA
#31
Friday Oct 31
The campaign for recognition of a "genocide" label for the 1915 events is not the Humanitarian movement that Armenian Propagandists would have us believe it to be. The Anatolian Armenians are a Christian People most of whom were admitted to the US in a mass immigration after WW1. They are not the only people to have suffered greatly in that war but some of their leaders -filled with deep-seated ethnic hatred toward the Turks (a Moslem People)- have created an veritable industry whose aim is to exact vengeance from people who weren't even alive at the time of the events in question. These Armenian Propagandists have a well-established record of fabricating evidence, deliberately distorting clear historical facts, spreading false and misleading propaganda and buying politicians with guaranteed deliveries of large voting blocs. They gave their silent assent to a series of terrorist acts perpetrated against innocent Turkish Civil Servants during the two-decade period spanning the mid 70's to the mid 90's. Instead of admitting this and repenting of it, they play the role of victim as can be seen in the original post of this forum accusing Ergun Kirlikovali of a "racist agenda". They are deceitful liars and slanderers; they accuse their ideological opponents of "genocide denial" when the fact of the matter is that the Turkish People admit the deaths; they only object to the use of the word "genocide" in describing them.
Pasadena Resident
Hermosa Beach, CA
#32
Friday Oct 31
AmericanGuy wrote:
The campaign for recognition of a "genocide" label for the 1915 events is not the Humanitarian movement that Armenian Propagandists would have us believe it to be. The Anatolian Armenians are a Christian People most of whom were admitted to the US in a mass immigration after WW1. They are not the only people to have suffered greatly in that war but some of their leaders -filled with deep-seated ethnic hatred toward the Turks (a Moslem People)- have created an veritable industry whose aim is to exact vengeance from people who weren't even alive at the time of the events in question. These Armenian Propagandists have a well-established record of fabricating evidence, deliberately distorting clear historical facts, spreading false and misleading propaganda and buying politicians with guaranteed deliveries of large voting blocs. They gave their silent assent to a series of terrorist acts perpetrated against innocent Turkish Civil Servants during the two-decade period spanning the mid 70's to the mid 90's. Instead of admitting this and repenting of it, they play the role of victim as can be seen in the original post of this forum accusing Ergun Kirlikovali of a "racist agenda". They are deceitful liars and slanderers; they accuse their ideological opponents of "genocide denial" when the fact of the matter is that the Turkish People admit the deaths; they only object to the use of the word "genocide" in describing them.
If you're going to make that sort of stereotypical accusation, you should provide some proof. But you didn't... because there is none.
Vivian
Los Angeles, CA
#33
Friday Oct 31
This is so true. They got an autho shop called Purfect Auto over in West Covina and the owner sends
coupons for oil change, changing brakes, etc., at reasonable prices, but when you go to service your car on some of these items, they nail women by telling them that there are problems wither their cars worth $600 and up. They are consistent with this. We made a complaint against this shop. They are liars and thieves.
just-Rog wrote:
I'll take your spelling criticism under advisment. Is that all you have to point out ? You Armenians are nothing but a bunch of crybabies. All you people do is whine and pout over the past. Your only good for selling gasoline and cheating people on auto repairs. Oh, and also serving as a good source of suicide. It's a known fact that if you stand next to an Armenian on the street corner and inhale really deep, your as good as deceased within a few seconds.
Mufon
Los Angeles, CA
#35
Friday Oct 31
How about Kim Kardashian? Is she not Armenian? She is pretty, but her sisters are something to barf on.
just-Rog wrote:
An Armenian woman with her clothes off, looks just like a Chia Pet. They don't shave their legs with a razor, they use a weed eater. Armenian women have mustaches that make Wyatt Earp's look prepubescent.
Pasadena Resident
Hermosa Beach, CA
#36
Friday Oct 31
Vivian wrote:
I identify them as liars and thieves. Strong identity alright. They are also very rude and look down upon people that are not up to their financial status. They get rich by deceiving people and robbing them clean. I don't trust them. A real estate agent, mechanic, etc., I stay the h-e-1-1 out. they get no business from me.
So you're just going public with the fact that you are racist? When is it okay to define a group of people by your experience with just a few? I'm Armenian, and I don't do any of those things... I also don't stereotype people like you do... so who is the better person?
What is your ethnicity? Do you claim that all people within your ethnic group are angels? Show me one ethnic group that doesn't have rotten individuals.
People like you are disgusting. This is not what America is about. You should embrace all the different cultures. We are one melting pot. I hope you get **** on by a flock of pigeons this weekend.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#37
Friday Oct 31
Ethocıde, Not Genocıde!
Saddened by the biased coverage of the Turkish-Armenian conflict in the media, I have coined a new term back in 2003—my humble gift to the English language—“ethocide”.
A brief definition of ethocide is:
“extermination of ethics by systematic and malicious mass-deception for political and other gain.”
When countered with racist and dishonest politicians like Schiff and their erroneous and deceptive resolutions (like HR 106) in future, our children will be able to simply say what transpired in 1915 was not genocide, but what the Armenians and their sympathizers did since then is clearly ethocide. Or simply:“Ethocide, Not Genocide.”
Fairness, honesty, and truth are all that I want.
Ergun KIRLIKOVALI
Son of Turkish-survivors from maternal and paternal sides
www.turkla.com
Vivian
Los Angeles, CA
#38
Friday Oct 31
Did the truth sting you? You also must be one of those who lives large at the cost of cheating and robbing people. Shame on you!!! You should cheat your own but not other, dumb bell.
Pasadena Resident wrote:
So you're just going public with the fact that you are racist? When is it okay to define a group of people by your experience with just a few? I'm Armenian, and I don't do any of those things... I also don't stereotype people like you do... so who is the better person?
What is your ethnicity? Do you claim that all people within your ethnic group are angels? Show me one ethnic group that doesn't have rotten individuals.
People like you are disgusting. This is not what America is about. You should embrace all the different cultures. We are one melting pot. I hope you get **** on by a flock of pigeons this weekend.
AmericanGuy
Seattle, WA
#39
Friday Oct 31
Pasadena Resident wrote:
If you're going to make that sort of stereotypical accusation, you should provide some proof. But you didn't... because there is none.
The accusation is not stereotypical; the post makes it clear that it is Armenian Propagandists that are intended; not all persons of Armenian Ethnicity so lets stop playing victim. The proof that Armenian Propagandists are slandering their ideological opponents as "Genocide Deniers" is everywhere so don't pretend there's a need to "prove" it.
Know The Facts
United States
#40
Friday Oct 31
For those interested in learning more about Schiff's legislation: http://www.tusiad.us/Content/uploaded/ERMENI.... ("U.S. House Res. 106: Factual & Legal Deficiencies").
Know The Facts
United States
#41
Friday Oct 31
Dear Pasadena Resident,
Here is some proof of forgeries and lies: http://www.youtube.com/watch...
And, here is some proof from the Russian archives that Armenian militias massacred and pillaged civilian Ottomans during WWI:
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
Let us know if you require more proof of the greatest historical deceit of the 20th century, there's much more where that came from ...
Know The Facts
United States
#42
Friday Oct 31
Dear Pasadena Resident,
Just a few tidbits more:
41. NYT: 13 Nov 1914 : "Turkish Armenians Refuse To Join Turkish Army - Ready To Join Russian Invaders for Armed Revolt" (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1882-nyt-13-nov-1914-turkish-armenians.html )
43. NYT: 15 Dec 1903 : "Armenian Revolt Likely" (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1880-nyt-15-dec-1903-armenian-revolt.html )
45. NYT: 22 Jun 1935 "Armenian Patriot Miran Sevasly Dead: He Helped Raising 10.000 Armenians To Fight Against Turkish Front In Armenian Legion " (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1879-nyt-4-aug-1940-military-hero-of.html )
46. NYT: 8 Jan 1915 "Armenians From America, Arrived In Tiflis, To Serve With The Russian Army Against Turkey" (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1877-nyt-8-jan-1915-armenians-from.html )
47. NYT: 9 Oct 1915 "Why We Aid Armenians: It's Because We're Bought by Anglo-French Gold" (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1876-nyt-93-oct-1915-why-we-aid.html )
48. NYT 13 May 1947 "James Chankalian, Won Honors, in Organising 300 Armenian Volunteers To Fight Against Turkey" (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1875-nyt-13-may-1947-james-chankalian.html )
49. NYT 29 Sep 1915: "Armenians Brought Reprisals on Themselves by Trying to Stir Up Rebellion Against Turkey" "ARMENIANS' OWN FAULT-Bernstorff" (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1874-nyt-29-sep-1915-armenians-brought.html)
50. "Turkish Garrisons Attacked by Armenian Rebels" The Washington Post, 1904 Aug 10 (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1862-turkish-gar risons-attacked-by.html )
51. "Armenian Rebels Killed 20, Wounded 23, in Turkey" The News, 1904 May 2 (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1861-armenian-rebels-killed-20-wounded.html )
52. "Armenians Aiding Russians In Campaign Against Turkey" Fort Wayne News, 1914 Nov 7 (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1860-armenians-aiding-russians-in.html )
just-Rog
[I VOTED!]
“God Bless America”
Los Angeles, CA
#43
Friday Oct 31
Know The Facts wrote:
Dear Pasadena Resident,
Just a few tidbits more:
41. NYT: 13 Nov 1914 : "Turkish Armenians Refuse To Join Turkish Army - Ready To Join Russian Invaders for Armed Revolt" (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1882-nyt-13-nov- 1914-turkish-armenians.html )
43. NYT: 15 Dec 1903 : "Armenian Revolt Likely" (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1880-nyt-15-dec- 1903-armenian-revolt.html )
45. NYT: 22 Jun 1935 "Armenian Patriot Miran Sevasly Dead: He Helped Raising 10.000 Armenians To Fight Against Turkish Front In Armenian Legion " (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1879-nyt-4-aug-1 940-military-hero-of.html )
46. NYT: 8 Jan 1915 "Armenians From America, Arrived In Tiflis, To Serve With The Russian Army Against Turkey" (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1877-nyt-8-jan-1 915-armenians-from.html )
47. NYT: 9 Oct 1915 "Why We Aid Armenians: It's Because We're Bought by Anglo-French Gold" (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1876-nyt-93-oct- 1915-why-we-aid.html )
48. NYT 13 May 1947 "James Chankalian, Won Honors, in Organising 300 Armenian Volunteers To Fight Against Turkey" (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1875-nyt-13-may- 1947-james-chankalian.html )
49. NYT 29 Sep 1915: "Armenians Brought Reprisals on Themselves by Trying to Stir Up Rebellion Against Turkey" "ARMENIANS' OWN FAULT-Bernstorff" (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1874-nyt-29-sep- 1915-armenians-brought.html)
50. "Turkish Garrisons Attacked by Armenian Rebels" The Washington Post, 1904 Aug 10 (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1862-turkish-gar risons-attacked-by.html )
51. "Armenian Rebels Killed 20, Wounded 23, in Turkey" The News, 1904 May 2 (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1861-armenian-re bels-killed-20-wounded.html )
52. "Armenians Aiding Russians In Campaign Against Turkey" Fort Wayne News, 1914 Nov 7 (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1860-armenians-a iding-russians-in.html )
One can not argue with the truth ! Thank You for your post and input.
SD GIRL
La Puente, CA
#44
Friday Oct 31
Justin wrote:
Adam Schiff is a dip****.
The "Armenian genocide", similarly, is bull****.
A lot of Armenians died, but the Armenians and their Russian allies killed many Turkish civilians during the same period.
Either there were no genocides, or there were 2 GENOCIDES -- 1 against the Turks by the Armenians and one going the other way. The Armenians refuse this simple fact. They want to have their cake and eat it, too: the Turks must be demons, and the Armenians angels.
The Armenians consistently whitewash their history. On the other hand, educated Turks realize many, many Armenians died; we're just trying to keep the narrative of the history free from bias. The use of the term genocide, and particularly the comparisons to the holocaust, are not accurate.
So, hopefully some truth will make its way into the argument. Whenever you see an Armenian pratting about genocide, you can be sure you're hearing either lies or a half-truth.
Give me a break Justin. If you don't know your history don't comment. Many turks have come forward as well acknowledging that it was Genocide. Its you ignorant ones that don't realize the tragedy behind the massacres. maybe you should study your history a little more
SD Girl
La Puente, CA
#45
Friday Oct 31
QUOTE who="just-Rog"The trouble is, the Armenians just won't let it go. They keep re-hasing ancient
You are so disillusioned. Armenians are not people who give up especially about something as tragic as genocide and losing loved ones especially those realitives that were still living to this day. Your cold heart may be able to busy loved ones and let it go but we as a people care about our relatives and our nation as a whole.
We keep this ongoing stance against the Turks because til this day they deny the atrocities they unveiled and carried out on our people. We keep this stance because one day the United States will be amongst the rest who stand up and state that YES it was Genocide.
How about you brush up on your history and just go read what these sites have to say and look at the inhumane way men women elderly and children were massacred.
YOU SHOULD ALSO READ A BOOK WRITTEN BY A TURK ABOUT THE GENOCIDE:
"A SHAMEFUL ACT: THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE AND THE QUESTION OF TURKISH RESPONISIBILITY" - TANER AKCAM
"THE DEFINITIVE ACCOUNT OF THE ORGANIZED DESTRUCTION OF THE OTTOMAN ARMENIANS...NO FUTURE DISCUSSION OF THE HISTORY WILL BE ABLE TO IGNORE THIS BRILLIANT BOOK" - ORHAN PAMUK
Armenians, JUST ROG, are not an unforgiving people, we are a people of truth and substance. and we do not give up until we get that truth recognized.
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/
http://www.genocide1915.info/
http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Genocide/arm...
http://www.theforgotten.org/noflash.html
http://www.hyeetch.nareg.com.au/genocide/
SD Girl
La Puente, CA
#46
Friday Oct 31
You are so disillusioned. Armenians are not people who give up especially about something as tragic as genocide and losing loved ones especially those relatives that were still living to this day. Your cold heart may be able to forget loved ones and let it go but we as a people care about our relatives and our nation as a whole.
We keep this ongoing stance against the Turks because til this day they deny the atrocities they unveiled and carried out on our people. We keep this stance because one day the United States will be amongst the rest who stand up and state that YES it was Genocide.
How about you brush up on your history and just go read what these sites have to say and look at the inhumane way men women elderly and children were massacred.
YOU SHOULD ALSO READ A BOOK WRITTEN BY A TURK ABOUT THE GENOCIDE:
"A SHAMEFUL ACT: THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE AND THE QUESTION OF TURKISH RESPONISIBILITY" - TANER AKCAM
"THE DEFINITIVE ACCOUNT OF THE ORGANIZED DESTRUCTION OF THE OTTOMAN ARMENIANS...NO FUTURE DISCUSSION OF THE HISTORY WILL BE ABLE TO IGNORE THIS BRILLIANT BOOK" - ORHAN PAMUK
Armenians, JUST ROG, are not an unforgiving people, we are a people of truth and substance. and we do not give up until we get that truth recognized.
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/
http://www.genocide1915.info/
http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Genocide/arm ...
http://www.theforgotten.org/noflash.html
http://www.hyeetch.nareg.com.au/genocide/
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#47
Friday Oct 31
IT IS OFFICIAL: TANER AKCAM IS PAID BY ARMENIANS
And that's the real "shameful act"!
It is documented now: Taner Akcam, one of the most ardent supporters of the official Armenian position on the Turkish-Armenian conflict, is a paid Armenian agent.
One of the first Turkish academics to acknowledge and openly promote the Armenian Genocide, the “poster boy” of sorts for the Armenian lobby, turns out to be a gun-for-hire, after all. Well, well, well… What do you know?
Surprised? Not me. I have always suspected that but never really had the concrete proof. Not until I received a letter from the legal counsel of the University of Minnesota, that is, responding to a query of mine (see at www.turkla.com )
It is an established fact now; Armenians are paying Akcam. And you can take that to the bank—like Akcam is taking Cafesjian and Zoryan checks to the bank, thank you.
Here is a little inside joke: like most Armenian names, ending with “ian”, Cafesjian is also Turkish.“Cafes”, or more correctly,“kafes” means “cage” in Turkish, most commonly the one used for fowl and “Cafesji”, a cagemaker. It looks like the Armenian “cagemakers” finally “caged” a good one.
SD Girl
La Puente, CA
#48
Friday Oct 31
ya anytiem a Turk goes against what majority of you want to make the rest of the world believe, they are either traitors, or paid agents etc. and if they go back to Turkey they will probably be murdered just as Hrant Dink was for speaking out against Turkey
SD Girl
La Puente, CA
#49
Friday Oct 31
and to note, you can never pay an armenian enough to speak agains his/her own kind. that says alot about your people if that is what you are accusing Mr. Akcam of doing. but then again, the truth of the matter is he is not a paid agent but yet a man who has the balls to stand up to his own country and report the truth about his own people
Ronny
West Covina, CA
#50
Friday Oct 31
Armenians are crybabies. Their pain is not as bad as what the Jewish went through with that monster Hitler. Jewish are humble people but Armenians are not and arrogant. They are also known for cheating people and ripping them off. I am 65 year old and I remember back then when we had primarily American businesses that cared for their reputation and catered to customers. You didn't have to worry about their ripping you off. But now we have all these foreigners that bring their practices with them and bring this country down. We have all htese foreigners pouting into this country is so courrpt, but yet they bring their corruption with them and practice it here. Sorry Armenians but you should be crying in your own country, not here.
hen Americans here had 98% of the businesses. They were good, they stood behind their product,
SD Girl wrote:
QUOTE who="just-Rog"The trouble is, the Armenians just won't let it go. They keep re-hasing ancient
You are so disillusioned. Armenians are not people who give up especially about something as tragic as genocide and losing loved ones especially those realitives that were still living to this day. Your cold heart may be able to busy loved ones and let it go but we as a people care about our relatives and our nation as a whole.
We keep this ongoing stance against the Turks because til this day they deny the atrocities they unveiled and carried out on our people. We keep this stance because one day the United States will be amongst the rest who stand up and state that YES it was Genocide.
How about you brush up on your history and just go read what these sites have to say and look at the inhumane way men women elderly and children were massacred.
YOU SHOULD ALSO READ A BOOK WRITTEN BY A TURK ABOUT THE GENOCIDE:
"A SHAMEFUL ACT: THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE AND THE QUESTION OF TURKISH RESPONISIBILITY" - TANER AKCAM
"THE DEFINITIVE ACCOUNT OF THE ORGANIZED DESTRUCTION OF THE OTTOMAN ARMENIANS...NO FUTURE DISCUSSION OF THE HISTORY WILL BE ABLE TO IGNORE THIS BRILLIANT BOOK" - ORHAN PAMUK
Armenians, JUST ROG, are not an unforgiving people, we are a people of truth and substance. and we do not give up until we get that truth recognized.
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/
http://www.genocide1915.info/
http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Genocide/arm...
http://www.theforgotten.org/noflash.html
http://www.hyeetch.nareg.com.au/genocide/
Ronny Granddaughter
West Covina, CA
#51
Friday Oct 31
Correcting my Grandfather's post:
Armenians are crybabies. Their pain is not as bad as what the Jewish went through with that monster Hitler. Jewish are humble people but Armenians are not and arrogant. They are also known for cheating people and ripping them off. I am 65 year old and I remember back then when we had primarily American businesses that cared for their reputation and catered to customers. You didn't have to worry back then about being ripped off. Today we have all these foreigners taking over businesses and their dealings are crooked. They are bringing the quality of good businesses down. These foreigners pour into this country because they state they are running from their own corrupt governments, but yet when they get here, they quickly forget and bring their own corrupted ways and start businesses with an intent to make money out of cheating people. Frankly, Armenians should be crying about this problem they have in their own country. What do we have to do with it and why should we care? Really. They certainly don't care about Americans because if they did, they would not be cheating them in business dealings. Armenians, shut up and go home.
Duh
Long Beach, CA
#52
Friday Oct 31
Booger wrote:
You know what? This is AMERICA! Take your 19th century crap back to where you came from. You should have fought harder or at least stayed in your own country and changed everything. Americans fought and died for freedom. Johnny come lately need not apply
I come from an Armenian background and for the record, Armenians did fight, there were just far fewer Armenians than there were their enemies. We did fight... to stay ALIVE... our ancestors did not "LEAVE" they were forced out...
And by the way who do you think American's are??? A bunch of people who did "LEAVE" their countries. The only people who are really American are Native Americans... therefore Get off your high horse. hypocrite.
Duh
Long Beach, CA
#53
Friday Oct 31
just-Rog wrote:
The trouble is, the Armenians just won't let it go. They keep re-hasing ancient history to work themselves into a hatefull frenzy. Their like a broken record that just keeps going over and over on the same track. Armenians have no forgivness in them, and thats why they are a cursed people. Why they won't forgive and forget is beyond me. Hell, everybody that went through the so called "genocide" in 1915 is dead now. And if their not dead they ought to be. Filling their relatives with fairy tales of mass slaughter to inrage the younger generations into doing something illegal. Like assassinating the Turkish Ambassador, which happend a few years ago by some young Armenian filled with hate by his old Grandpa no doubt.
To the Armenian's I say, LET IT BE, get on with your own lives. You live in a new country. Why re-live something that may have happened a century ago in another part of the world far far away.
Well my dear, let me put it this way... my Great grandma was the only surviving of her 6 brothers and sisters... she was alone at age 7. now if that were you just how would you feel? Its not that Armenians can't put it to rest it is that it is so unnerving that politics are the reason that all these people's existence is disgraced by denial. The fact is, we are how we are and a big part of that reason is what we ourselves have experienced in the world. And by the way, its not ancient history. think about all the centuries that have passed and all the generations... in comparison, its an extremely short time ago... what I don't get is how everyone expects us to just magically "forget about it"... If that happened to you, could you forget about it? I think not!
Duh
Long Beach, CA
#54
Friday Oct 31
Ronny wrote:
Armenians are crybabies. Their pain is not as bad as what the Jewish went through with that monster Hitler. Jewish are humble people but Armenians are not and arrogant. They are also known for cheating people and ripping them off. I am 65 year old and I remember back then when we had primarily American businesses that cared for their reputation and catered to customers. You didn't have to worry about their ripping you off. But now we have all these foreigners that bring their practices with them and bring this country down. We have all htese foreigners pouting into this country is so courrpt, but yet they bring their corruption with them and practice it here. Sorry Armenians but you should be crying in your own country, not here.
hen Americans here had 98% of the businesses. They were good, they stood behind their product,
Wow you sound like a bitter, jealous old man who has nothing better to do than to discriminate against people. Do you remember when whites had coloreds as slaves too? Ridiculous... AMERICAN? I am more AMERICAN than you! YOU are also an immigrant why don't you go back to your own country? WOW. you would think someone of your mature age would have more brains.
Duh
Long Beach, CA
#55
Friday Oct 31
And by the way... who are you to judge who has worse pain.. As a matter of fact Armenians and Jews get along pretty well and partly because they feel each other's pain.
And just because you've ran into a bad apple, doesn't mean all the apple's in the world are bad. STOP DISCRIMINATING! and stop teaching your grandchildren to hate people, do you really want to instill bitterness into their pure and innocent hearts? Stop being so selfish! That kind of behavior just disgusts me.
Ronny wrote:
Armenians are crybabies. Their pain is not as bad as what the Jewish went through with that monster Hitler. Jewish are humble people but Armenians are not and arrogant. They are also known for cheating people and ripping them off. I am 65 year old and I remember back then when we had primarily American businesses that cared for their reputation and catered to customers. You didn't have to worry about their ripping you off. But now we have all these foreigners that bring their practices with them and bring this country down. We have all htese foreigners pouting into this country is so courrpt, but yet they bring their corruption with them and practice it here. Sorry Armenians but you should be crying in your own country, not here.
hen Americans here had 98% of the businesses. They were good, they stood behind their product,
Pasadena Resident
Pasadena, CA
#56
Friday Oct 31
Vivian wrote:
Did the truth sting you? You also must be one of those who lives large at the cost of cheating and robbing people. Shame on you!!! You should cheat your own but not other, dumb bell.
I'm one of the most moral people you'll ever meat. You, on the other hand, is a racist... which puts you right up there with cheats and robbers. Truth? You want to tell me that there is truth in all armenians being terrible people? Seriously? And you're calling me dumb?****.. Are you joking?
Pasadena Resident
Pasadena, CA
#57
Friday Oct 31
Know The Facts wrote:
Dear Pasadena Resident,
Just a few tidbits more:
41. NYT: 13 Nov 1914 : "Turkish Armenians Refuse To Join Turkish Army - Ready To Join Russian Invaders for Armed Revolt" (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1882-nyt-13-nov- 1914-turkish-armenians.html )
43. NYT: 15 Dec 1903 : "Armenian Revolt Likely" (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1880-nyt-15-dec- 1903-armenian-revolt.html )
45. NYT: 22 Jun 1935 "Armenian Patriot Miran Sevasly Dead: He Helped Raising 10.000 Armenians To Fight Against Turkish Front In Armenian Legion " (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1879-nyt-4-aug-1 940-military-hero-of.html )
46. NYT: 8 Jan 1915 "Armenians From America, Arrived In Tiflis, To Serve With The Russian Army Against Turkey" (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1877-nyt-8-jan-1 915-armenians-from.html )
47. NYT: 9 Oct 1915 "Why We Aid Armenians: It's Because We're Bought by Anglo-French Gold" (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1876-nyt-93-oct- 1915-why-we-aid.html )
48. NYT 13 May 1947 "James Chankalian, Won Honors, in Organising 300 Armenian Volunteers To Fight Against Turkey" (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1875-nyt-13-may- 1947-james-chankalian.html )
49. NYT 29 Sep 1915: "Armenians Brought Reprisals on Themselves by Trying to Stir Up Rebellion Against Turkey" "ARMENIANS' OWN FAULT-Bernstorff" (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1874-nyt-29-sep- 1915-armenians-brought.html)
50. "Turkish Garrisons Attacked by Armenian Rebels" The Washington Post, 1904 Aug 10 (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1862-turkish-gar risons-attacked-by.html )
51. "Armenian Rebels Killed 20, Wounded 23, in Turkey" The News, 1904 May 2 (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1861-armenian-re bels-killed-20-wounded.html )
52. "Armenians Aiding Russians In Campaign Against Turkey" Fort Wayne News, 1914 Nov 7 (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/08/1860-armenians-a iding-russians-in.html )
The ottoman empire forced armenians on a death march across the river.. after killing off many men. here are some pics http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php...
you're a fool to believe the brainwashing crap fed to you by the Turkish Government
Pasadena Resident
Pasadena, CA
#58
Friday Oct 31
This whole discussion board illustrates why Armenians are such wonderful people. We have pride in being armenians... and we remember our history, no matter where life has taken us. I know every armenian that is in America is proud to be here, and worked very hard to get here.
Whatever any of you negative jerks want to say, I don't care. I know how wonderful my fellow armenians are.
You can be negative and spiteful all you want. You probably have really terrible lives with no love. I, on any given night, have family to have good times with and lean on.
You have no idea who a true Armenian is.
Know The Facts
United States
#59
Friday Oct 31
Dear Pasadena Resident,
Righto, Armenians "are such wonderful people" that they pawn off photos of Jews murdered by Nazis during the Holocaust as Armenians killed by Turks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
(It's a very well done video, you really should watch it.)
Then, there's Naim Andonian who forged documents and claimed they were telegrams from the Ottoman government ordering a genocide.
Then there's the three Armenian UCLA professors who, during a panel about "uncovering the truth" just a few years ago, photo shopped a picture of Ataturk to remove puppies playing near his feet with the body of a dead child and tried to pawn it off as an actual photo upon their unsuspecting audience.
Then there are all those Armenians in Glendale who hold in high esteem and revere the members of ASALA and JCAG, Armenian terrorists who actually committed the first acts of domestic terror in the U.S. against Turkish targets starting in 1973.
Armenians in southern California were so compassionate they held candle light vigils, not for the diplomats assassinated by their terrorists, but in support of the Armenian terrorists themselves, raised money for the defense of the terrorists and still to this day hold masses in honor of Armenian terrorists, such as the Lisbon five, who died while committing their acts of terror.
Yes, Armenians are very positive, teaching their children to hate an entire people based on a false history.
Or, wait, do you teach your children about the atrocities Armenians visited upon unarmed civilian Ottomans? Because Ottoman and Russian Armenians began massacring non-Orthodox (i.e., Jewish & Muslim) civilians in eastern Anatolia long before WWI.
Do tell. We "negative jerks" with "terrible lives" who've assimilated into the U.S. mainstream and are voting U.S. citizens who also contribute to political campaigns in accordance with our rights as citizens are all ears.
Know The Facts
United States
#60
Friday Oct 31
Pasadena Resident wrote:
The ottoman empire forced armenians on a death march across the river.. after killing off many men. here are some pics http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php...
you're a fool to believe the brainwashing crap fed to you by the Turkish Government
Dear Pasadena Resident,
Do you realize that your response above is to citations to articles published in the New York Times?
Are you suggesting the New York Times is owned by the Turkish government? I don't think that it is. If you have information that indicates otherwise, please cite it.
Or, better yet, why not read posts before responding to them in a typical Dashnak knee-jerk fashion?
Know The Facts
United States
#61
Friday Oct 31
Dear Pasadena Resident,
Just to be clear, my information and education about the events of WWI, come not from the Turkish government but from Armenian publications.
Surely you've heard of Boghos Nubar, Garegin Pastermadjian and Hovhannes Katchaznouni--all Armenian Dashnak leaders during WWI.
All three of those gentlemen consistently reported to the Paris Peace Conference and the U.S. government that Armenians were de facto belligerents against the Ottoman Empire during WWI and that 200,000 Armenians were armed and fought against Ottoman forces to help the Entente Powers defeat the Ottoman Empire.
200,000 Armenian militants armed and in combat. Do you know that's more troops than the U.S. has ever had in Iraq at one time in this most recent war?
Should you have any doubt, you can view the actual newspaper clipping of the letter Boghos Nubar wrote to the London Times extolling the de facto belligerace of Ottoman Armenians here:
http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/10/20...
Oh, and Dasnabedian and der Minassian have both written histories and memoirs of Armenian militant activity during WWI that quite literally obliterate genocide claims, have you read them? Just wondering...
Dee Dee
West Covina, CA
#62
Friday Oct 31
Dude, why don't you take that crying crap to your country?
Duh wrote:
I come from an Armenian background and for the record, Armenians did fight, there were just far fewer Armenians than there were their enemies. We did fight... to stay ALIVE... our ancestors did not "LEAVE" they were forced out...
And by the way who do you think American's are??? A bunch of people who did "LEAVE" their countries. The only people who are really American are Native Americans... therefore Get off your high horse. hypocrite.
Dee Dee
West Covina, CA
#63
Friday Oct 31
Why do you cry babies wind so much about this ancient history stuff? Are you hoping for a metal or to change history? Losers!!!!
Duh wrote:
Well my dear, let me put it this way... my Great grandma was the only surviving of her 6 brothers and sisters... she was alone at age 7. now if that were you just how would you feel? Its not that Armenians can't put it to rest it is that it is so unnerving that politics are the reason that all these people's existence is disgraced by denial. The fact is, we are how we are and a big part of that reason is what we ourselves have experienced in the world. And by the way, its not ancient history. think about all the centuries that have passed and all the generations... in comparison, its an extremely short time ago... what I don't get is how everyone expects us to just magically "forget about it"... If that happened to you, could you forget about it? I think not!
just-Rog
[I VOTED!]
“God Bless America”
Los Angeles, CA
#64
Saturday Nov 1
Duh wrote:
Well my dear, let me put it this way... my Great grandma was the only surviving of her 6 brothers and sisters... she was alone at age 7. now if that were you just how would you feel? Its not that Armenians can't put it to rest it is that it is so unnerving that politics are the reason that all these people's existence is disgraced by denial. The fact is, we are how we are and a big part of that reason is what we ourselves have experienced in the world. And by the way, its not ancient history. think about all the centuries that have passed and all the generations... in comparison, its an extremely short time ago... what I don't get is how everyone expects us to just magically "forget about it"... If that happened to you, could you forget about it? I think not!
Nobody cares anymore about your exagerated past, so why don't you people fold up your tents and find another issue. Your all nothing but a bunch of damn whiners, get over your Grandmas BS and live your own life. Quit carrying other peoples baggage.
Pasadena Resident
Pasadena, CA
#65
Saturday Nov 1
Everything you're stating here is incorrect propoganda. I don't care what source you site..(although I believe all your sources are incorrect) I know that the Ottoman Empire wanted to kill all armenians.
The EU won't grant Turkey into the European union until they admit what they did... Do you believe that the entire EU is wrong?
Moron
What A Shame
La Puente, CA
#66
Saturday Nov 1
Maybe you might want to take a look at just this one picture of TURKS hanging armenians during the Genocide... or is this not Murder in your eyes.
http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php...
Know The Facts
United States
#67
Saturday Nov 1
Dear Pasadena Resident/Moron,
You don't care what source I cite (not, "site"), but you should.
It's rather interesting that you slander an entire nation of people with allegations they committed a crime against humanity just because "you know" and prefer not to check your own Dashnak leader's publications of the time-- publications they authored before Armenians dreamt up the strategy of claiming genocide in the hopes of obtaining lands through political force that they could not obtain through armed combat.
As for the EU, don't you know that the majority of Turks don't want to belong to the EU? The EU is a dead horse, as the current economic crisis so aptly illustrates.
..........
Dear What A Shame,
While Pasadena Resident/Moron may not care to look at sources cited, I do. Armeniapedia is not an unbiased or academic source.
Can you prove that photo is not of criminals who were tried and convicted of some heinous crime that warranted the death penalty, which all countries in Europe at the time also imposed?
Know The Facts
United States
#68
Saturday Nov 1
Dear Pasadena Resident/Moron,
Just FYI, the EU does not require Turkey to recognize Armenian claims to be admitted to the EU.
duh
Sedona, AZ
#69
Saturday Nov 1
just-Rog wrote:
Nobody cares anymore about your exagerated past, so why don't you people fold up your tents and find another issue. Your all nothing but a bunch of damn whiners, get over your Grandmas BS and live your own life. Quit carrying other peoples baggage.
What a bunch of heartless bs on this page... wow... obviously because this discussion is even happening there are quite a bit of people who do care. And fold up our tent? What the heck does that mean? If that's a misguided comment about armenian culture ... go read a book and get educated. And to all those that believe that the armenians are lying and exaggerating, think about it, you think a whole nation of people young and old fabricated a story that is exactly the same everywhere around the world... you know what this all disgusts me if you people have racists issues I feel bad for you but keep them to yourselves, how is recognizing the genocide even affecting you? If anything you all should get over all your smack talking and live your lives while we work to rectify our history. No one told you to read these posts and what do you have against us doing what we're doing we're not bothering you!
Duh
Long Beach, CA
#70
Saturday Nov 1
Dee Dee wrote:
Dude, why don't you take that crying crap to your country?
Because genius, this is my country. I am in my own country, I was born in raised in the States. And DUDE, its not crying, its expressing ourselves and emphasizing what is right. Take your crying crap out of here.
Duh
Long Beach, CA
#71
Saturday Nov 1
Pasadena Resident wrote:
Everything you're stating here is incorrect propoganda. I don't care what source you site..(although I believe all your sources are incorrect) I know that the Ottoman Empire wanted to kill all armenians.
The EU won't grant Turkey into the European union until they admit what they did... Do you believe that the entire EU is wrong?
Moron
And by the way, what the hell is with "unite against racism" and "boycott Armenians",? We just all just unite and boycott morons like you! Jealous loser.
Duh
Long Beach, CA
#72
Saturday Nov 1
Dee Dee wrote:
Why do you cry babies wind so much about this ancient history stuff? Are you hoping for a metal or to change history? Losers!!!!
For a metal or to change history? Ya thats really what all this is about, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with all the lives that were lost and what needs to be set straight! It has nothing to do with educating the world on a horrible crime against humanity, yes i said it. And by the way, yes there were also a lot of Turks that were killed in WWI, but does anyone take into consideration that they were mostly SOLDIERS fighting in the war!! Take it into consideration that there are eye witness testimonies from AMERICANS who have state they've seen the injustice done against WOMEN, CHILDREN and the ELDERLY... AS WELL AS THE BRAVE YOUNG MEN WHO WERE SOLDIERS.... So just to make it clear, the scales are a little tipped. Put that in a pipe and smoke it, I'M DONE!
Duh
Long Beach, CA
#73
Saturday Nov 1
just-Rog wrote:
I'll take your spelling criticism under advisment. Is that all you have to point out ? You Armenians are nothing but a bunch of crybabies. All you people do is whine and pout over the past. Your only good for selling gasoline and cheating people on auto repairs. Oh, and also serving as a good source of suicide. It's a known fact that if you stand next to an Armenian on the street corner and inhale really deep, your as good as deceased within a few seconds.
What the F? yes... Not only are all Armenians Mechanics and Gas station owners, but they are also the GRIM REAPER... Oh and the Easter bunny has a great present for you as long as you get your tooth ready for the tooth fairy!! Wow you're such a narrow minded SOB.
What's funny is that mechanics have had bad reps since forever, yet you run across one bad one and suddenly all Armenians as a race are evil, and trying to cheat you! all I can say to that is HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. You're a joke!! Discriminating POS
just-Rog
[I VOTED!]
“God Bless America”
Los Angeles, CA
#74
Saturday Nov 1
duh wrote:
What a bunch of heartless bs on this page... wow... obviously because this discussion is even happening there are quite a bit of people who do care. And fold up our tent? What the heck does that mean? If that's a misguided comment about armenian culture ... go read a book and get educated. And to all those that believe that the armenians are lying and exaggerating, think about it, you think a whole nation of people young and old fabricated a story that is exactly the same everywhere around the world... you know what this all disgusts me if you people have racists issues I feel bad for you but keep them to yourselves, how is recognizing the genocide even affecting you? If anything you all should get over all your smack talking and live your lives while we work to rectify our history. No one told you to read these posts and what do you have against us doing what we're doing we're not bothering you!
Man you rug beaters are really sensitive ain't you, your living proof of why Armenians should not be taken seriously. Just look at your feeble tirades, one after another. So do us all a favor and fold up your tents, roll up your carpets, and move on.
just-Rog
[I VOTED!]
“God Bless America”
Los Angeles, CA
#75
Saturday Nov 1
ARMENIAN TEST (are you one?) 1 point for each yes
1. You have at least one Pursian rug or crocheted tablecloth.
2. You talk with your hand when your on the phone.
3. You have at least one inlaid tavli board in your closet.
4. You think Fresno is the capitol of California
5. You get 5 O'clock shadow at 2:30 (women)
6. You serve hummus and tabbouleh with your taco chips.
7. You don't buy anything unless you can get it for at least 50% off.
8. You have at least one fruit tree and a patch of cilantro growing in your back yard.
9. You save string and toothpicks from resturants.
10. You have a picture of Mt. Ararat hanging in your house or garage.
11. You think the Star Trek Kardasians are an ancient Armeniantribe.
12. You shovel food onto other peoples plates when their not looking.
13. You think pilaf is one of the four food groups.
Super Bonus Points
1. Add two points if you've ever told anyone that former California Governor Geroge Deukmejian was a relative.
2. Add two points if you have an old video tape of "Mannix" reruns.
3. Add five points if you have a recording of Charles Aznavour.
Your Score:
0-5 points: Your not an Armenian
9-14 points: You know an Armenian or are married to one.(poor thing)
14-21 points: Your probably planning a trip to the old country as we speak.
Pasadena Resident
Pasadena, CA
#76
Saturday Nov 1
just-Rog wrote:
ARMENIAN TEST (are you one?) 1 point for each yes
1. You have at least one Pursian rug or crocheted tablecloth.
2. You talk with your hand when your on the phone.
3. You have at least one inlaid tavli board in your closet.
4. You think Fresno is the capitol of California
5. You get 5 O'clock shadow at 2:30 (women)
6. You serve hummus and tabbouleh with your taco chips.
7. You don't buy anything unless you can get it for at least 50% off.
8. You have at least one fruit tree and a patch of cilantro growing in your back yard.
9. You save string and toothpicks from resturants.
10. You have a picture of Mt. Ararat hanging in your house or garage.
11. You think the Star Trek Kardasians are an ancient Armeniantribe.
12. You shovel food onto other peoples plates when their not looking.
13. You think pilaf is one of the four food groups.
Super Bonus Points
1. Add two points if you've ever told anyone that former California Governor Geroge Deukmejian was a relative.
2. Add two points if you have an old video tape of "Mannix" reruns.
3. Add five points if you have a recording of Charles Aznavour.
Your Score:
0-5 points: Your not an Armenian
9-14 points: You know an Armenian or are married to one.(poor thing)
14-21 points: Your probably planning a trip to the old country as we speak.
There's another example of your racist BS. I'm Armenian... I got 1 point (i have a fruit tree, big f'en deal) and by your standards, I'm not even Armenian.. But hey, YOU are a ****
just-Rog
[I VOTED!]
“God Bless America”
Los Angeles, CA
#77
Saturday Nov 1
Pasadena Resident wrote:
There's another example of your racist BS. I'm Armenian... I got 1 point (i have a fruit tree, big f'en deal) and by your standards, I'm not even Armenian.. But hey, YOU are a ****
LOL, I rest my case !!!
Lucrece
Bordeaux, France
#79
Sunday Nov 2
Mister Abendschein, when will you inform us about the financing of US politician by Armenian ultranationalist groups, like the Armenian National Committee of America (ANCA)? The man in charge of politicial financing within the ANCA, Mourad Topalian, is a former terrorist, sentenced to 37 mont of jail by a US court in 2001.
duh
Sedona, AZ
#80
Sunday Nov 2
just-Rog wrote:
Man you rug beaters are really sensitive ain't you, your living proof of why Armenians should not be taken seriously. Just look at your feeble tirades, one after another. So do us all a favor and fold up your tents, roll up your carpets, and move on.
Have you even seen a map of the world? Seriously I feel bad for people like you who have no purpose and who think they are making themselves look better by putting others down. May you die alone, bitter, and unhappy just as you are. Don't even bother replying to this post I won't continue to sit here and waste time with people like you but I felt the urge to acknowledge your discontent with life.
SSAYA
Istanbul, Turkey
#82
Monday Nov 3
Dear Sir,
In reference to Armenian allegations, you are herewith invited to read http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2008/10/26... which are self-documentary and explanatory.
For further details you may please refer to my book in the free E-library http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2008/04/24... I welcome any writer-historian-academic or interested readers, to DEFY ANY OF THE quotes and references I have given.
You are herewith cordially invited to struggle for the DIFFUSION OF PROVEN TRUTHS and not "hearsays or fabricated tales".
Yours cordially
Suru S. Aya - Istanbul
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#83
Monday Nov 3
BIAS & BIGOTRY LURKING IN THE TERM “ARMENIAN GENCOIDE�
I believe there may be a miscommunication in the this quote:“…Hahn said he does not deny that the Armenian genocide took place, but says he would not have supported Schiff's legislation…� According to the Hahn statement on the Turkish-Armenian conflict, released to the Turkish-American community on September 20, 2008, Hahn “acknowledges Armenian suffering� without calling it a genocide. Hahn also acknowledges, however, the Turkish suffering in the same era and area.
Not all suffering, not all killings, not all wartime measures moving people can be casually classified a genocide, a specific term reserved by the 1948 U.N. genocide convention solely for the use of a “competent tribunal� which proves “intent� after “due process� is allowed to take its course, where the accused can cross examine the accusers’ evidence, question their witnesses, and produce the accused party’s own evidence and witnesses. This has never been done in the Turkish-Armenian case— save a Kangaroo court in occupied Istanbul which was staged to settle old scores rather than a “due process�.
The constant drum beat of genocide we hear today, therefore, are not based on the verdict of a “competent tribunal�, a la Nuremberg, but an invisible blanket of bias, called consensus, arrived at using only the Armenian version of history and under constant Armenian pressure. If one cherishes values like fairness, objectivity, truth, and honesty, then one should really use the term “Turkish-Armenian conflict� instead of “Armenian genocide�.
Asking one “Do you accept or deny Armenian Genocide� shows anti-Turkish bias. The question should be re-phrased “What is your stand on the Turkish-Armenian conflict?� Turkish-Americans believe it was a civil war within a world war, engineered, provoked, and waged by the Armenians with active support from Russia, England, and France, all eyeing the vast territories of the collapsing Ottoman Empire. Armenian fanatically claim it is genocide and they will intimidate, harass, and terrorize you if you disagree with Armenians.
Hahn believe a joint commission of historians should be allowed full access to all relevant archives to sort out the complexities. A similar proposal was officially made by Turkey to Armenia in 2005, but Armenia rejected it. Hahn believes in research and dialog, whereas Schiff acts like a mouth piece for Armenian lobby. That is why I support Hahn.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#84
Monday Nov 3
BIAS & BIGOTRY LURKING IN THE TERM ARMENIAN GENCOIDE
I believe there may be a miscommunication in the this quote:…Hahn said he does not deny that the Armenian genocide took place, but says he would not have supported Schiff's legislation… According to the Hahn statement on the Turkish-Armenian conflict, released to the Turkish-American community on September 20, 2008, Hahn acknowledges Armenian suffering without calling it a genocide. Hahn also acknowledges, however, the Turkish suffering in the same era and area.
Not all suffering, not all killings, not all wartime measures moving people can be casually classified a genocide, a specific term reserved by the 1948 U.N. genocide convention solely for the use of a competent tribunal which proves intent after due process is allowed to take its course, where the accused can cross examine the accusers’ evidence, question their witnesses, and produce the accused party’s own evidence and witnesses. This has never been done in the Turkish-Armenian case— save a Kangaroo court in occupied Istanbul which was staged to settle old scores rather than a due process.
The constant drum beat of genocide we hear today, therefore, are not based on the verdict of a competent tribunal , a la Nuremberg, but an invisible blanket of bias, called consensus, arrived at using only the Armenian version of history and under constant Armenian pressure. If one cherishes values like fairness, objectivity, truth, and honesty, then one should really use the term Turkish-Armenian conflict instead of Armenian genocide.
Asking one Do you accept or deny Armenian Genocide shows anti-Turkish bias. The question should be re-phrased What is your stand on the Turkish-Armenian conflict? Turkish-Americans believe it was a civil war within a world war, engineered, provoked, and waged by the Armenians with active support from Russia, England, and France, all eyeing the vast territories of the collapsing Ottoman Empire. Armenian fanatically claim it is genocide and they will intimidate, harass, and terrorize you if you disagree with Armenians.
Hahn believe a joint commission of historians should be allowed full access to all relevant archives to sort out the complexities. A similar proposal was officially made by Turkey to Armenia in 2005, but Armenia rejected it. Hahn believes in research and dialog, whereas Schiff acts like a mouth piece for Armenian lobby. That is why I support Hahn.
Booger
Pasadena, CA
#85
Monday Nov 3
Sorry, I like Schiff. Armenians need to take their whining back home
Irritated
Glendale, CA
#86
Monday Nov 3
I've been reading some of these posts, specifically the one's about mechanics, and I've had different mechanics and for whatever reason never an Armenian one... They all do that kind of thing, don't pin that on Armenians
Vivian wrote:
This is so true. They got an autho shop called Purfect Auto over in West Covina and the owner sends
coupons for oil change, changing brakes, etc., at reasonable prices, but when you go to service your car on some of these items, they nail women by telling them that there are problems wither their cars worth $600 and up. They are consistent with this. We made a complaint against this shop. They are liars and thieves.
Irritated
Glendale, CA
#87
Monday Nov 3
Cher is part Cherokee, from her mother's side. Her mother was also part English, German and Irish. Her father on the other hand was full blooded Armenian. I'm pretty sure she is not at all ashamed of being Armenian, nobody is. Even though every race has people that make them look bad and help society stereotype other members of that group (Oh, such as you!) Armenians are a very ethnically strong and no where near ashamed of their heritage because it has so much color and warmth.
just-Rog wrote:
I remember when CHER of Sonny & Cher said she was part Cherokee. What a joke, she was so ashamed of being Armenian she had to make up a lie and say she was part Native American. Everyone knows she has about as much Indian blood in her as the Easter Bunny.
just-Rog
[I VOTED!]
“God Bless America”
Los Angeles, CA
#88
Tuesday Nov 4
Irritated wrote:
Cher is part Cherokee, from her mother's side. Her mother was also part English, German and Irish. Her father on the other hand was full blooded Armenian. I'm pretty sure she is not at all ashamed of being Armenian, nobody is. Even though every race has people that make them look bad and help society stereotype other members of that group (Oh, such as you!) Armenians are a very ethnically strong and no where near ashamed of their heritage because it has so much color and warmth.
I first met Cherilyn Sarkisian when I was just a kid, at the Retail Clerks Union in Buena Park. Her and Sonny ( a class guy) we're on the bill as "Caesar and Cleo". She looked like a Vampire with her teeth whan she smiled. She was very conscious and embarrassed when she laughed because of her "fangs".
I later saw them as Sonny and Cher at the Golden Bear in Huntington Beach, she had lost her sweetness and developed a full blown Armenian personality, stuck up and full of herself. She was always pretty though, and had the most beautiful long black hair.
You may be right about her Mom, I don't know, because I never met her. That may account for Cherilyn's high cheek bones. But I'v never heard or read of the fact that she was proud to be an Armenian. Or that she had "any" Armenian in her for that matter. But then again, who could blame her.
Bob
Durham, NC
#89
Tuesday Nov 4
Mr. Kirlikovali,
By informing us that the Armenian Genocide has not happened you are basically telling us the American ambassador to Constantinople who sent telegrams to Washington informing about the massacres is lying. Ambassador Morganthau also wrote a book in which he devotes a few chapters about the Armenian Genocide entitled "The Murder of a Nation". Also Viscount Bryce wrote a book about the Armenian Genocide entitled "The Treatment of The Armenians in the Ottoman Empire" Also the Genocide was not just against the Armenians it was a policy of ethnic cleansing against all Christians living in what is today the Republic of Turkey. That means the Armenians the Greeks and the Assyrians. After these Genocides the Turkish government turned its focus on the Kurds they would be the next people to be harrased, killed and called Terorists. Mr. Kirlikovali I advise you and any Turk who lives in Turkey to take a DNA test you will be very surprised to find that your ancestry is a combination of Turks from Central Asia in addition to People from Asia Minor and the Balkans. And yes the Armenians are very much part of this ingredient. We lived in these lands before there was a Turkey. Some of us and the other etnic groups were forcefuly converted. The names of towns in Eastern Turkey still bear Armenian names. Van, Mazgirt, Pertek, Hinis, Moush, Sason, Harput (Kharput)etc. If they are not Armenian then tell me what the names of these towns mean in Turkish. Also, just about two years ago an Armenian Hrant Dink was assasinated in the steets of Constantinople. Who killed him Mr. Kirlikovali? Remember this this topic will never go away for Turkey.By denying the Truth you are denying your own past which by the way is in part Armenian. In Turkey my grandparents were "Gyavours" (infidels) who had no rights in the courts and in any part of Ottoman society. They were not allowed to carry weapons in some cases could not even ride a horse. I don't hate you or Turks but I don't like a government such as the Turkish government who sent a percentage of its people on a Death march just because they were of a different race or religion. A government is supposed to protect its people not kill them!
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#90
Wednesday Nov 5
FUNNY YOU SHOULD MENTION MORGENTHAU
Funny you should mention Morgenthau, the U.S. Ambassador to Istanbul from November 1913 to February 1916.
Morgenthau presented himself as a career diplomat and historian in his book, whereas, in fact, he was neither. He was a real estate developer from New York rewarded by President Wilson with the ambassadorial post to Istanbul, for raising the most funds during the 1912 presidential election campaign. Being a merchant all his life, he understandably had absolutely no idea about either diplomacy or history.
He was known for his racist views and anti-Turkish bias. Here is an example from his book: "The Armenians, are known for their industry, their intelligence, and their decent and orderly lives. They are so superior to the Turks intellectually and morally"
Are you beginning to get the picture?
Morgenthau never set foot out of Istanbul, except for a brief visit to Jerusalem—under Ottoman rule then—and relied heavily on his Armenian male secretaries/assistants Hagop Andonian and Schamvonian, hardly objective, ethical translators. What’s worse, Morgenthau relied heavily on the reports by the ARF (Armenian Revolutionary Foundation) who were at war with Turks. Any message ARF wanted in New York times, all they had to do was to send a field report to Morgenthau, the rest was even easier. easy. After all, who is going to question a great American ambassador?
What’s equally questionable as source was the field reports from the U.S. Protestant missionaries who embellished the Armenian suffering and totally ignored Muslim, mostly Turkish, suffering. You will never find the suffering my grandparents went through in those reports because they were Muslim and Turkish; automatic two strikes against in a crusader’s mind.
Look what another missionary, a British one, Samsa, says about this kid of shamelessly biased reporting from the field (source: Lamsa, George M., The Secret of the Near East, Philadelphia, 1923, p 133):
“…In some towns containing ten Armenian houses and thirty Turkish houses, it was reported that 40,000 people were killed, about 10,000 women were taken to the harem, and thousands of children left destitute; and the city university destroyed, and the bishop killed. It is a well-known fact, that even in the last war, the native Christians, despite the Turkish cautions, armed themselves and fought on the side of the Allies. In these conflicts, they were not idle, but they were well supplied with artillery, machine guns and inflicted heavy losses on their enemies …”
…
And the New York Times kept publishing those field reports because they had “credible” names plastered all over them: Reverend this, Missionary that… And they came through the U.S. embassy in Istanbul. That’s all the credibility the New York Times needed at the time. Those reports were not checked. The NYT was so bad, that that it covered the ”Turkish atrocities”, as they put it, 145 times in a span of one year in 1915, without giving not even one chance to Turks to refute, rebut, question, or comment any one of them.
Please, for one minute, put your bias away, and think about what I just wrote.
What would you call a paper, large or small, which covers a controversial issue 145 times, and always from the same point, and always with flaws, errors, omissions, distortions, and without giving the other side of the story any chance to cross examine, refute, or question the claims reported? Journalist with a cause? Advocate? Fanatic?
By the way, guess who also helped the British war propagandists V. Bryce and Arnold Toynbee in writing their 1916 book on the treatment of Ottoman-Armenians?
You guessed it… Morgenthau!
Ergun Kirlikovali
Son of Turkish Survivors from both paternal and maternal sides
www.turkla.com
Proud Armenian
Los Angeles, CA
#91
Wednesday Nov 5
just-Rog wrote:
The trouble is, the Armenians just won't let it go. They keep re-hasing ancient history to work themselves into a hatefull frenzy. Their like a broken record that just keeps going over and over on the same track. Armenians have no forgivness in them, and thats why they are a cursed people. Why they won't forgive and forget is beyond me. Hell, everybody that went through the so called "genocide" in 1915 is dead now. And if their not dead they ought to be. Filling their relatives with fairy tales of mass slaughter to inrage the younger generations into doing something illegal. Like assassinating the Turkish Ambassador, which happend a few years ago by some young Armenian filled with hate by his old Grandpa no doubt.
To the Armenian's I say, LET IT BE, get on with your own lives. You live in a new country. Why re-live something that may have happened a century ago in another part of the world far far away.
It is because of ignorant people like you that the TUrks have gotten away with genocides all these years. Have you read the diary of your great granfather describing in detail his mothers rape, his family being killed on by one and read the thorough descriptions of the people that are committing these attrocities. Maybe you should go to the library and check out a few books,videos there is even a book filleg with articles from the la times, New York times and many other american magazines talkin about what is happening to the armenians. After you do your research then come back here and tell us to just let it go.
Proud Armenian
Los Angeles, CA
#92
Wednesday Nov 5
Ronny Granddaughter wrote:
Correcting my Grandfather's post:
Armenians are crybabies. Their pain is not as bad as what the Jewish went through with that monster Hitler. Jewish are humble people but Armenians are not and arrogant. They are also known for cheating people and ripping them off. I am 65 year old and I remember back then when we had primarily American businesses that cared for their reputation and catered to customers. You didn't have to worry back then about being ripped off. Today we have all these foreigners taking over businesses and their dealings are crooked. They are bringing the quality of good businesses down. These foreigners pour into this country because they state they are running from their own corrupt governments, but yet when they get here, they quickly forget and bring their own corrupted ways and start businesses with an intent to make money out of cheating people. Frankly, Armenians should be crying about this problem they have in their own country. What do we have to do with it and why should we care? Really. They certainly don't care about Americans because if they did, they would not be cheating them in business dealings. Armenians, shut up and go home.
It sounds like you are a racist American your problem isnt only with Armenians but all other races. American is a mixing pot get over it. You must really hate the fact that we now have an African -American president but just wait and see how much better this country will be because RACIST WHITE AMERICANS LIKE YOU WILL NOT BE RUNNING IT.
Proud Armenian
Los Angeles, CA
#93
Wednesday Nov 5
just-Rog wrote:
I'll take your spelling criticism under advisment. Is that all you have to point out ? You Armenians are nothing but a bunch of crybabies. All you people do is whine and pout over the past. Your only good for selling gasoline and cheating people on auto repairs. Oh, and also serving as a good source of suicide. It's a known fact that if you stand next to an Armenian on the street corner and inhale really deep, your as good as deceased within a few seconds.
SOund like you have really been burned by an Armenian or your just an idiot. How many Armenians have you seen on the ten oclock news for scamming customers. An Armenian man will do whatever he has to to feed his kids and put a roof over his families hear.
Pasadena Resident
Hermosa Beach, CA
#94
Wednesday Nov 5
Hahn ran a campaign funded with Turkish money and lies in an area heavily populated by armenians... and he LOST!!!
Thank you Schiff for staying with us.
Lou
Los Angeles, CA
#95
Wednesday Nov 5
You say: "you worked very hard to be here". You are correct. You did work very hard to get here by cheating people. You should make all the fuz in your own country. Don't bring your problems here.
Pasadena Resident wrote:
This whole discussion board illustrates why Armenians are such wonderful people. We have pride in being armenians... and we remember our history, no matter where life has taken us. I know every armenian that is in America is proud to be here, and worked very hard to get here. Whatever any of you negative jerks want to say, I don't care. I know how wonderful my fellow armenians are.
You can be negative and spiteful all you want. You probably have really terrible lives with no love. I, on any given night, have family to have good times with and lean on. You have no idea who a true Armenian is.
Lou
Los Angeles, CA
#96
Wednesday Nov 5
Your country when it is convenient, but you are not welcome here. Now get lost and cry in your own country. Punk
Duh wrote:
Because genius, this is my country. I am in my own country, I was born in raised in the States. And DUDE, its not crying, its expressing ourselves and emphasizing what is right. Take your crying crap out of here.
Duh
Glendale, CA
#97
Wednesday Nov 5
What the hell is that supposed to mean? This is my country period. Not when it's convenient. I was born and raised here, I went to school here, i work here, the air I breathe is here, my life, my knowing, my experiences, my pride, my family, my everything is here. I am more of a patriot than you will ever be. Armenia is a part of my cultural background, not my country. If anything YOU are not welcome here. America is the melting pot of the world and I accept people of different origins and religions, therefore I am a PERFECT candidate for an American citizen (and one who loves their country) YOU on the other hand cannot be with anyone different than you, therefore you are not welcome. Until you have human emotions and an experience that even comes close to the experiences that my forefathers had to endure, just don't get involved, no one asked for your half-brained comment. Don't speak unless you know. Punk.
Lou wrote:
Your country when it is convenient, but you are not welcome here. Now get lost and cry in your own country. Punk
Duh
Glendale, CA
#98
Wednesday
You know what I've realized, there is no getting though to hard-headed, racist, prejudice, and ignorant people. It's pretty sad, but there's no getting through to them... They are convinced all Armenians are evil and hairy... to that i say HAHAHAHAHAHAH... you can stereotype and categorize with any race.(i.e. white people are trash and mexicans are gardeners, but all rational people know that is not true!) But wow some people are just unreachable and so set in their old thinking that there is no rationalizing with them... Think two-year-old.
And I've written some heavy posts too, but don't take it personally because they have absolutely no idea what the hell they are talking about. you know that expression "talking out of their **** "...enough said.
So... keep livin proud :)
Proud Armenian wrote:
SOund like you have really been burned by an Armenian or your just an idiot. How many Armenians have you seen on the ten oclock news for scamming customers. An Armenian man will do whatever he has to to feed his kids and put a roof over his families hear.
Bob
Durham, NC
#99
Wednesday
Dear Mr. Kirlikovali,
I understand from your comments that any information affirming the Armenian Genocide is false to you. You disagree with the 140 plus articles in the New York Times about the Armenian Genocide in 1915. Also the various eyewitness accounts including missionaries, Armin Wegner a German who took pictures of victims of the Genocide, ambassador Leslie who wrote about Kharput the sloderhouse province etc. Also the U.S. ambassador Morganthau in your mind was not telling the truth. You feel that there was an uprising in Eastern Turkey and a civil war and that an equal amount of Turks died. If we Armenians were so successfull in killing all these people as you say then why don't we exist in Eastern Turkey today. We lived in what is today Eastern Turkey for thousands of years but yet we have no communities there today. In 1880 the Christians in Turkey numbered around 6 million. They were mostly Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians. Today there are at the most 100,000 Christians in Turkey. Where did these people go? Also why was their homes and lands taken. Why can't I go to my grandparents' birthplace and reclame our family home? My grandparents were survivors of the Armenian Genocide of 1915. They were a witness to the murder of their own families and those of their own people. The genocide wasn't only perpetrated against the Armenians it was also against the Greeks and Assyrians. Are they all lying too? After the Christians were wiped out the Turkish government turned its focus on the Kurds. In 1938 in Dersim the Kurds were victims of Genocide and also in the 1990s.
Are the kurds lying too? In 1955 in Constantinople Armenians, Greeks and Jews were attacked and their stores vandalized. In 2007 Armenian jurnalist Hrant Dink was killed in the streets of Istanbul. Trust me there will not be justice for him in Turkey. He was killed for wirting about the Armenian Genocide. Under article 301 anyone can face a jail sentence for speaking their mind. Do you consider this freedom of speach or a form of discrimiantion. Hrant Dink was also sentenced bu in his case unlike the ethnic Turks he was killed. Today in Turkey no minority can hold a commanding position in the Turkish army. Also every Turkish citizen must carry identification papers where their religion is stated why is that?
Don't you feel this is discrimination? Christian religious properties have to pay a special tax which Moslems are exempt from. Don't you feel this is also discrimintation? In 1915 there were some Turks and Kurds who were Neighbors of Armenians who tried to help Armenians even though this meant that they would be killed too. I want to thank these people on behalf of my grandparents. Genocide occurred almost in every country. There was genocide in the US against native Americans. The only difference is that we in the US admit our mistakes but the Turkish state does not! Next time you go to a remote city or town in Turkey wear a cross and see how you are greeted by everyone. Also apply for a job wearing that same cross or a star of David.
hayeren
Bordeaux
ISP Location: Villejuif, France
#100
Thursday
Finally he threatened:“Vous aller voir maintenant, ce que c’est que de réclamer des reformes”.166 Other CUP sympathizers in Diyarbekir were Pirinççizâde Sıdkı (Tarancı), Yasinzâde Şevki (Ekinci), his brother Yasinzâde Yahya (Ekinci), and Müftüzâde Şeref (Uluğ), among less prominent others.167 The CUP’s policy towards the inhabitants of the eastern provinces varied between containment and repression. The day after the Kurdish revolt of Bitlis, on 4 April 1914, the Central Committee of the CUP convened to review its policy towards the eastern provinces. Mithat Şükrü(Bleda) pointed out that Russia was gradually tightening its grip on many Kurdish tribes in both the Ottoman Empire and Persia. According to him an other danger were Armenian revolutionaries, who were awaiting the right opportunity to revolt and could at any time strike.
He concocted a divide-and-rule strategy and maintained that on no account should Kurdish and Armenian politicians be allowed to unite. He suggested that the CUP should now adopt a more sophisticated stick-and-carrot strategy, enrolling potentially loyal chieftains through rhetoric and bribery, while threatening potentially disloyal chieftains with deportation and incarceration.168 The assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand in Sarajevo on 28 June 1914 stirred up acute international tensions. In the midst of this belligerent atmosphere, the CUP sought to forge alliances with any of the Great Powers in order for the empire to emerge from its diplomatic isolation. Cavid Bey, the pro-British Minister of Finance, had appealed to Britain in 1911, but apart from Winston Churchill, the Foreign Office was not interested.169 Talât flirted with Russia on his trip to the Crimea in May, where he spoke to the Russian Foreign Minister Sazonov about a possible alliance. The Russians expressed ambivalence in judgement but in essence were not interested. Cemal Paşa approached France but left empty-handed, lamenting the negotiations with the French as “a huge disappointment”(büyük bir hayal kırıkl&# 305;ğı). On 24 July 1914 a general mobilization was issued by the Ottoman general staff. On 28 July, the same day that Austria- Hungary declared war against Serbia, Enver Paşa proposed a defensive alliance between Imperial Germany and the Ottoman Empire to the German ambassador Wangenheim. In the next days Grand Vizier Said Halim, Chairman of the Parliament Halil, Enver, and Talât launched intensive negotiations with the Germans behind closed doors. Finally, on 2 August, one day after the German declaration of war against Russia, a written agreement was signed between the two states.
The discussions were top secret, and even Cemal Paşa had no knowledge of them. Three days later Austria-Hungary joined the Turko-German alliance and completed the Central Powers bloc, whereas Russia, France and Britain united into the Entente Powers. The Ottoman Empire was now officially allied to Germany and on account of the treaty was inevitably obliged in this political constellation to prepare for war. Following the succession of declarations of war in August 1914, the Germans urged Minister of War Enver Paşa at the end of October to act against Russia. Without a formal declaration of war, Enver ordered the Ottoman navy to immediately bomb the Russian shore, destroying oil tanks and sinking 14 vessels.Though few politicians in Istanbul knew of Enver’s solo adventure, this fait accompli triggered declarations of war by the Triple Entente powers. From 11 November 1914 on, the Ottoman Empire was officially at war with Russia, France, and Britain.
P34 : http://www.ermenisoykirimi.net/thesis.pdf
Booger
Pasadena, CA
#101
Thursday
Armenians sure are long winded. No wonder the Turks wanted to get rid of them, just look at their posts.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#102
Thursday
BOGHOS NUBAR PASHA LETTER TO THE TIMES OF LONDON DOCUMENTS ARMENIAN TREASON
Boghos Nubar Pasha, the leader of the Armenian delegation at the Paris Peace Conference after World War I, reveals in his letter dated 27 January 1919 to The Times of London, that it was the Armenian support for the allied war effort (read: treason) which led to the forced relocation (not extermination) of those Armenians by the Ottoman authorities. He lists how many thousand Armenian volunteers fought their fellow Ottoman citizens on the side of the invader, the Allies. Here is a smoking gun, one of many, that proves beyond a shadow of doubt, that Armenians were not innocent , unarmed, non-combatant victims, as portrayed, but well armed, trained, motivated combatants.. Let’s read:
BOGHOS NUBAR PASHA TO THE TIMES OF LONDON
To the Editor of the Times,
Sir, the name of Armenia is not on the list of the nations admitted to the Peace Conference. Our sorrow and our disappointment are deep beyond expression. Armenians naturally expected their demand for admission to the Conference to be conceded, after all they had done for the common cause.
The unspeakable suffering and the dreadful losses that have befallen the Armenians by reason of their faithfulness to the Allies are now fully known. But I must emphasize the fact unhappily known to few, that ever since the beginning of the war the Armenians fought by the side of the Allies on all fronts. Adding our losses in the field to the greater losses through massacres and deportations, we find that over a million out of a total Armenian population of four million and a half have lost their lives in and through the war. Armenia's tribute to death is thus undoubtedly heavier in proportion than that of any other belligerent nation. For the Armenians have been belligerents de facto, since they indignantly refused to side with Turkey.
Our volunteers fought in the French "Legion Entrangere" and covered themselves with glory. In the Legion d'Orient they numbered over 5,000, and made up more than half the French contingent in Syria and Palestine, which took part in the decisive victory of General Allenby.
In the Caucasus, without mentioning the 150,000 Armenians in the Russian armies, about 50,000 Armenian volunteers under Andranik, Nazarbekoff, and others not only fought for four years for the cause of the Entente, but after the breakdown of Russia they were the only forces in the Caucasus to resist the advance of the Turks, whom they held in check until the armistice was signed. Thus they helped the British forces in Mesopotamia by hindering the Germano-Turks from sending their troops elsewhere.
These services have been acknowledged by the Allied Governments, as Lord Robert Cecil recognized in the House of Commons.
In virtue of all these considerations the Armenian National Delegation asked that the Armenian nation should be recognized as a belligerent. Had the recognition been granted, we should now have been admitted, ipso facto, to the Conference, to which even transatlantic States have found access, though having merely broken off diplomatic relations with Germany, without the least sacrifice on their part.
At the moment when the fate of Armenia is being decided at the Peace Conference, it is my duty, as the head of the National Delegation which has no tribute from which its voice can resound, to state once again, in the columns of The Times, the important part played by the Armenians in this frightful war. I wish strongly to urge that the Armenians, having of their own free will cast their lot with the champions of right and justice, the victory of the Allies over their common enemies has secured to them a right to independence.
Believe me, sir, yours very truthfully,
Boghos Nubar
Paris, January 27, 1919
---
Does any of this sound like a genocide to any open-minded truth-seeker?
Pasadena Resident
Hermosa Beach, CA
#103
Thursday
Has anyone noticed how the Turkish people on this board are discriminating against Armenians but Armenians have been very diplomatically trying to explain their feelings?
Where did you get these insulting ideas that Armenians are cheats? Why can't you get it in your thick skulls that there are cheats in all ethnic groups, but they don't define who we are. Why are you focusing on the the bad ones among us instead of the good? There are plenty of great Armenians here... why don't you go make an effort to meet one?
I don't cheat! I work hard! I have a lot of pride in who a I am.. I'm getting really irritated at these posts that say "All Armenians are _____" Those of you talking like this are ignorant children.
Pasadena Resident
Hermosa Beach, CA
#104
Thursday
Lou wrote:
You say: "you worked very hard to be here". You are correct. You did work very hard to get here by cheating people. You should make all the fuz in your own country. Don't bring your problems here.
Lou, I'm sorry that you're a bitter ****. But seriously, shut the f up. You have no idea what you're talking about.
SlingShot
Washington, DC
#105
Friday
Armenians have every reason to commemorate their suffering and losses. So, do Turks.
Enron-style accounting of history will not surve Armenian or Turkish interests, only make things worse for all parties, including America as a whole.
If Armenians are truly confident in their genocide claim, then they should pressure their political leaders to pursue an open, competent process (e.g.tribunal, commision, etc.) where Turks would have to face the charges.
If Armenians are timid about taking such a step and want to go straight to a political verdict, they will at best have a hollow political victory which will most likely give Turks a stronger counter-position. The USA as well as Armenia will be weakened as Turkey will naturally feel a need to react to the US and Armenia. All sides will loose.
In contrast, an open, just process will mean the world will see once and for all the entire spectrum of rationale and evidence backing the genocide claim. And, Turks will not be able to deny what they cannot challenge in open view. That would be a real victory and open the way to reconciliation instead of useless and baseless cycle of recrimination.
It is time to end the 150-year conflict.
Bud
West Covina, CA
#106
Saturday
Your country? LOL I am an ex-marine, and in all my days of serving my country, I not once seen an Armenian enlisted in the army, marines, navy, etc. I seen plenty of Caucasians, African-Americans and Hispanics Armenians are free loaders and cry babies. The Middle Eastern folks also claimed this was their country until they backed stabbed us. You people not only lie but you cheat too. Despicable people. Yo all should be rounded and given a one-way ticket to get out of this country. We were better off with none of you in here.
Duh wrote:
Because genius, this is my country. I am in my own country, I was born in raised in the States. And DUDE, its not crying, its expressing ourselves and emphasizing what is right. Take your crying crap out of here.
Bud
West Covina, CA
#107
Saturday
A foreigner trying to preach to Americans, what a joke you are. Harry freak - do us Americans a favor and go home. The Turks don't like you guys for a reason. We don't like you either. Try conducting honest businesses for a change and maybe you won't be so hated. You crooked, slimy people.
Proud Armenian wrote:
It sounds like you are a racist American your problem isnt only with Armenians but all other races. American is a mixing pot get over it. You must really hate the fact that we now have an African -American president but just wait and see how much better this country will be because RACIST WHITE AMERICANS LIKE YOU WILL NOT BE RUNNING IT.
Bud
West Covina, CA
#108
Saturday
If you are so proud of being an Armenian, why are you in American soil? Go to your own country and sing your proud tune of being an Armenian. We don't want to hear that tune here, nor do we care. What makes you think we would care about your differences with the Turks? Dumb (_)_)
Proud Armenian wrote:
It is because of ignorant people like you that the TUrks have gotten away with genocides all these years. Have you read the diary of your great granfather describing in detail his mothers rape, his family being killed on by one and read the thorough descriptions of the people that are committing these attrocities. Maybe you should go to the library and check out a few books,videos there is even a book filleg with articles from the la times, New York times and many other american magazines talkin about what is happening to the armenians. After you do your research then come back here and tell us to just let it go.
Who cares
Los Angeles, CA
#109
Saturday
I believe this genocide occured, no doubt about it. The only reason these people are dissing Armenians, because of all the medical/financing scams you guys run. Always trying to make a fast buck on peoples hard earned coin. And you are in America, so why do you have to speak Armenian in public places. And most importantly that nasty armpit odor, a little right guard is all you need.
Last but not least, you say people blogging here are racist, but Armenians are the biggest racist.
Bob
Durham, NC
#110
Saturday
SlingShot
I agree that there should be an International trial by the Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians and Kurds against the Turkish state because all these ethnic groups were victims of Genocide committed by Turkey and The Ottoman Empire. If any of you are truly interested in this topic all you need to do is go to our own archives and that of other countries. You don't have to read Armenian or Turkish sources. I as a grandson of survivors of the Armenian Genocide I do not want this to happen to any other race including the Turks. No ethnic group should have to go through Genocide in 2008 but yet in Darfur today our brothers and sisters are going through Genocide perpetrated by the Sudanese Government. To date 400,000 people have perished in the Darfur region and yes I care for these people. This is a tragedy and this is what we as human beings in the world should address. In 1939 when the Jews of Poland were to be exiled into concentration camps one of Hitler's men said "Don't you feel the world will speak against you for this crime" his response was "Who today remembers the extermination of the Armenians" Maybe had the world addressed the Genocide in Turkey the Jewish Holocaust would not have taken place. Any time a Genocide happens in the world it Grieves me as an Armenian because I remember my own grandparents who went through it. Also, like the Armenian Genocide there are people today who have written books refuting the Holocaust.
Bob
Grandson of Survivors of The Armenian Genocide
Oh Get over yourself
Glendale, CA
#111
Saturday
Both my grandpa's and two of my uncles fought in Vietnam, on top of that, another (younger) uncle is an ex- navy seal so keep your bull**** and your assumptions about Armenians to yourself, get your facts straight. AND yes MY COUNTRY... for the record, people of all races and ethnicities lie and cheat (including whites) and another thing, I'm sure that native American's feel the same way about you as you do about me. America was founded on the principle that everyone can be here. Black, white, yellow, brown... AND ANOTHER THING... Armenians are as Caucasians as they come: Armenia is where the Caucus mountains are! Oh My Goodness, now wasn't that a culture shock! Hahaha sorry to rain on your parade, well actually I'm not sorry.
Bud wrote:
Your country? LOL I am an ex-marine, and in all my days of serving my country, I not once seen an Armenian enlisted in the army, marines, navy, etc. I seen plenty of Caucasians, African-Americans and Hispanics Armenians are free loaders and cry babies. The Middle Eastern folks also claimed this was their country until they backed stabbed us. You people not only lie but you cheat too. Despicable people. Yo all should be rounded and given a one-way ticket to get out of this country. We were better off with none of you in here.
wty
Glendale, CA
#112
Saturday
Who cares wrote:
I believe this genocide occured, no doubt about it. The only reason these people are dissing Armenians, because of all the medical/financing scams you guys run. Always trying to make a fast buck on peoples hard earned coin. And you are in America, so why do you have to speak Armenian in public places. And most importantly that nasty armpit odor, a little right guard is all you need.
Last but not least, you say people blogging here are racist, but Armenians are the biggest racist.
Yes and that is very evident in the slamming that everyone is doing on Armenians. C'mon, They're talking all this stuff about Armenians like we're dogs,(and yes every culture has its "bad apples" so to speak) but all Armenians I know are well read, eloquent and classy people. I'm very sorry that so many of you have come across these "bad apples" but please don't trash Armenians as a whole because of it.
Proud Armenian
Los Angeles, CA
#113
Saturday
Who cares wrote:
I believe this genocide occured, no doubt about it. The only reason these people are dissing Armenians, because of all the medical/financing scams you guys run. Always trying to make a fast buck on peoples hard earned coin. And you are in America, so why do you have to speak Armenian in public places. And most importantly that nasty armpit odor, a little right guard is all you need.
Last but not least, you say people blogging here are racist, but Armenians are the biggest racist.
Thank you for your comment "I believe this genocide occured, no doubt about it." This is what the topic was about. I dont know why it turned to bash the Armenians. I dont think it is right to classify a whole race based on a group of bad apples. Every race has people in it that are bad. It's not fair to discriminate a whole race. Can anyone here show me a single comment from an Armenian insulting the Turks in any way. The modern Turkey is not responsible for the Genocide. We just want recognition that a Genocide happened. Everyone is getting of the subject here. We are all created equal, Arent we?
Booger
Pasadena, CA
#114
Saturday
Armenians are Gypsies
Booger
Pasadena, CA
#115
Saturday
Armenians are White? I think Im going to be sick
Oh Get over yourself wrote:
Both my grandpa's and two of my uncles fought in Vietnam, on top of that, another (younger) uncle is an ex- navy seal so keep your bull**** and your assumptions about Armenians to yourself, get your facts straight. AND yes MY COUNTRY... for the record, people of all races and ethnicities lie and cheat (including whites) and another thing, I'm sure that native American's feel the same way about you as you do about me. America was founded on the principle that everyone can be here. Black, white, yellow, brown... AND ANOTHER THING... Armenians are as Caucasians as they come: Armenia is where the Caucus mountains are! Oh My Goodness, now wasn't that a culture shock! Hahaha sorry to rain on your parade, well actually I'm not sorry.
wty Glendale, CA #116 Saturday
Proud Armenian wrote:
Thank you for your comment "I believe this genocide occured, no doubt about it." This is what the topic was about. I dont know why it turned to bash the Armenians. I dont think it is right to classify a whole race based on a group of bad apples. Every race has people in it that are bad. It's not fair to discriminate a whole race. Can anyone here show me a single comment from an Armenian insulting the Turks in any way. The modern Turkey is not responsible for the Genocide. We just want recognition that a Genocide happened. Everyone is getting of the subject here. We are all created equal, Arent we?
You're right.
Mark Soccer
Rolesville, NC
#117
History should based on facts not accusations.The fact is Khojaly massacre by Armanians to Azerbaijanians. But now you probably would find that very unnecessary or tantology.All you think is genocide to armanians which you had no idea what is that about.Mr KIrlikovali try to teach you something based on a fact ! LIke it or not.Turks gave nothing but a justuce and fully freedom all the nations those lived under Turkish rule or I should say Ottoman Rule and Armanians know that better.
Charles Webster wrote:
I find it extremely disturbing that the word "racist" is gratuitously used by this Turkish-American individual against Adam Schiff who is simply stating a well known and incontestable fact, whereas Mr. Kirlikovali is clearly mobilizing his efforts in a racist agenda of denying a genocide against the Armenians ever happened.
Mark
Rolesville, NC
#118
I hope this text make you armanian-americans (who grow up with deep hatred that they don't even know why and what ?) understand better the fact that there is no genocide ! jUST BE PATIENT AND READ !
Anatolia was invaded and occupied AFTER WWI with the intent to partition it as the spoils of war among the Entente Powers, Greece and Armenians. This is a very important piece of history in relation to Armenian genocide claims because the effort to arm Armenians and use them to obtain control over southeastern Anatolia and topple the Ottoman regime started long before WWI, was funded and supported by England, France, Russia .
The Armenians lost that war. Now, they call it genocide in an effort to obtain through political pressure and "moral" oppobrium lands they could not obtain by force and in which they were never the majority.
(Excerpted from "The Armenian Question Answered" by Kemal; reprinted with permission)
Say what
Pasadena, CA
#119
Are Armenians and gypsies the same thing.
just-Rog
[I VOTED!]
“God Bless America”
Los Angeles, CA
#120
Have you ever wondered why Armenians always have to have the last word. They just have to provocate that lie about their supposed genocide against them by the beautiful Turkish peoples. All the Turks were doing, was just taking out the garbage when they escorted the Armenians out of their country. The Turks got tired of these theiving free loading squaters and decided to show them the exit door, thats all. If any of you out their knows any Armenians you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. Hell, can you blame them.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#121
THIS TURKISH-AMERICAN’S ANSWERS TO AN ARMENIAN’S QUESTIONS
( 1 of 3 in a series )
”Bob”
You seem to subscribe to long discredited Armenian propaganda perhaps because that’s all your hear all your life. That’s understandable. But you try to add apples and oranges to come up with total bananas. That is not.
Since you asked nicely and did not resort to insults and threats like so many members of the AFATH community[1] in response to every Turkish view, it would be my pleasure to answer your questions in the order you raised them.
1-“… If we Armenians were so successful in killing all these people as you say then why don't we exist in Eastern Turkey today…”
Armenians were successful in killing Muslims, mostly Turks, to the tune of 520,000 between 1914-1921, according to the Turkish Historical Society research of Ottoman Home Security records. TERESET [2] order was issued on May 31, 1915 to defend the country against rebellious and treasonous Ottoman-Armenians. Most came back in 1917-1921 and then had to leave again because they exacted revenge on the Turkish neighbors and they feared retaliation after the Russians left in 1917 and the French left in 1921.
2-“…We lived in what is today Eastern Turkey for thousands of years but yet we have no communities there today…”
You should rephrase this question and ask the Armenian Revolutionary Federation as follows:“Why did you destroy a thousand year of harmonious Turkish-Armenian co-habitation in Anatolia with your rebellions, treason, and territorial demands during WWI and forced the Ottoman Empire to a wartime defense measure of TERESET?…”[2]
3-“…In 1880 the Christians in Turkey numbered around 6 million. They were mostly Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians …”
Incorrect. The correct numbers are: Armenians 1.3 million. Greeks: 1.7 million. Assyrians: 150,000. Total= 3.15 million.
4-“…. Today there are at the most 100,000 Christians in Turkey. Where did these people go?"
Here is roughly where they went:
400,000+ to Armenia;
500,000+ to Syria, Lebanon, Egypt;
100,000+ to Europe & US;
50,000+ Asia, South America, and other places
100,000+ in the Ottoman Empire (some of those are still on Ottoman soil today in the Balkans, the Middle East, and the Caucasus.
Total Armenian dead: 200,000 (not 1.5 million) according to Paris Peace Conference, March 29, 1919 report on minorities.
Of those 200,000, mostly perished due to hunger and epidemics. Less than 10,000 of those can be documented to be killed by inter-communal warfare (read civil war), attacks, raids, and/or feuds. You can see names, dates, description on those Ottoman Home Security records. Some Muslim/Turkish perpetrators were caught, tried, convicted, and punished, but Armenians never caught their own Armenian perpetrators (Dro, Pastermadjian, Aram, etc.) victimizing Muslims/Turks. 524,000 Muslims, mostly Turks, were killed by Armenian nationalists between 1914-1918.
5-“…Also why was their homes and lands taken…”
Because of the TERESET measure which deemed, with good reasons, disloyal, dangerous, rebellious, and treasonous, some Armenians (Eastern provinces). Note that Armenians of Istanbul (capital), Izmir, Edirne, Aleppo and other places were excluded from the TERESET. Also excluded were Catholic and Protestant Armenians, those who were in the Ottoman army, or lived in city centers, doctors, nurses, craftsmen, and some invalid. Those who lived near railways could and did use trains. Others were assigned ox-carts, donkeys, mules, wherever possible. This was a wartime and Armenians took up arms against their own government. This is a serious crime in any country, including here in the U.S. even today.
….
To be continued…
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#122
THIS TURKISH-AMERICAN’S ANSWERS TO AN ARMENIAN’S QUESTIONS
( 2 of 3 in a series )
6-“…Why can't I go to my grandparents' birthplace and reclame our family home?..”
More than likely, that home is leveled to make for progress, like highways, factories, etc. Even if it is still standing, I doubt it is livable. Even if it is livable, you need to go thorough Turkish law to reclaim it. Even if you go through Turkish law to reclaim it, you will hit the wall of international law: all disputes concerning WWI were settled once and for all in the 1934 agreement. You are simply fed dis-information by your community leaders, again, and you are on the wrong track, again.
If you want to visit Turkey to commemorate, you are welcome. Turkey is a country that takes pride in its legendary hospitality. Tourism is a major industry in Turkey. You might also benefit from learning the fact that there are close to 100,000 illegal Armenia-Armenians workers in Turkey who call Turkey home and love it there. Turks have no problem with that. Repeat; no problem. This is over and above the Turkish-Armenian population of about 100,000.
So, if you come in peace, you will love Turkey, Turkish food, dances, sights and sounds. If you come with hatred in your heart ( as is so evident in your questions) and act out your hatred, you will run into trouble with law, just like you would run into trouble right here in the U.S. if you commit hate crimes against a Turkish diplomat or a Turkish-American. So, it is wiser to tame your hatred and rage. You can catch more flies with honey and vinegar. Besides, Turks, especially nowadays, are in no mood to take lessons of humanity from aggressor, schemers, backstabbers, and terrorists.
7-“…My grandparents were survivors of the Armenian Genocide of 1915…”
Your grandparents were survivors of a civil war your grandparents schemed, engineered, provoked, and waged.(My grandparents are also survivors of ethnic civil wars: go to www.turkla.com and read about it..)
8-“…They were a witness to the murder of their own families and those of their own people…”
That may be true, but that does not prove genocide. It is a war crime and there other laws that deal with such crimes.
8-“…The genocide wasn't only perpetrated against the Armenians it was also against the Greeks and Assyrians…”
is is a recent invention of the AFATH lobbies. Totally incorrect.
9-“…Are they all lying too?”
Absolutely.
10-“…After the Christians were wiped out, the Turkish government turned its focus on the Kurds. In 1938 in Dersim the Kurds were victims of Genocide and also in the 1990s…”
Turks and Kurds are like flesh and nail; separate, but in harmony together, each part needing the other. Turks and Kurds have become one over the years with intermarriage. What you are talking about here is a Dersim rebellion by some terrorist Kurds which was defused by the home security forces, just like Waco, Texas incident was dealt with by the U.S. Government.)
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#123
16-“…Hrant Dink was also sentenced but in his case unlike the ethnic Turks he was killed…”
Yes, he was. But Turks, young and old, denounced the killing and the killer. Thousands marched down Istanbul streets condemning this act of hate crime. Did you, or any Armenian anywhere around world, march down any street, denouncing the killing of a Turkish diplomat by a young Armenian terrorist? Ever? There were more than 200 acts of Armenian terrorism around the globe… Did you protest any one of them? Forget protesting, didn’t you actually collect money for their legal defenses? Didn’t you treat them as heroes? Telling, isn’t it… So, please stop lecturing other people on human rights. You people are probably the most violent people I have ever known. And you can take that to the bank!
17-“…Also every Turkish citizen must carry identification papers..”
Incorrect.
18-“…where their religion is stated…”
Correct.
19-“… why is that?..”
Old law. Will change. European Union is seeing to it.
20-“…Don't you feel this is discrimination?..”
Perhaps, I don’t know. I don’t like it, either, though and it is in the process of changing.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#124
THIS TURKISH-AMERICAN’S ANSWERS TO AN ARMENIAN’S QUESTIONS
( Bonus 1 of 2 )
21-“…Christian religious properties have to pay a special tax which Moslems are exempt from….”
Incorrect.
22-“…Don't you feel this is also discrimination?..”
It would be if it were true.
23-“…In 1915 there were some Turks and Kurds who were Neighbors of Armenians who tried to help Armenians …”
Yes, but remember, Armenian nationalists were the ones who were killing those Turks and Kurds. The latter only retaliated, roght or wrong. That’s why they call it war.
24-“…even though this meant that they would be killed too…”
Incorrect.
25-“…I want to thank these people on behalf of my grandparents…”
You’re welcome.
26-“…Genocide occurred almost in every country..”
Genocide is a legal term and only competent tribunals can rule after due process on which is genocide, which is not. Man’s inhumanity to man in many forms, such as feuds, raids, civil wars, world wars, slavery, ethnic cleansing, religious witch hunts, inquisitions, crusaders, conquests… They all happened… Some here, some there… That is the history of man.
27-“…There was genocide in the US against native Americans..”
The term can only used after a court verdict. There was ethnic/religious/cultural cleansing conducted on the native Americans which devastated and shrunk their population. True. But if this one day is taken to a “competent tribunal” and “due process” is allowed to run its course, the verdict may well come out genocide. I cannot tell you that, because I am not a legal scholar. Please note, historians are only expert witnesses, not decision making body in such courts. They need to be cross examined, too, by opposition.
28 “…The only difference is that we in the US admit our mistakes but the Turkish state does not!..”
No, the U.S. doesn ‘t admit to committing genocide. The closest to genocide is perhaps Nagasaki and Hiroshima. The U.S. knew civilians would be exterminated en masse and went ahead with it anyway. Still, though, a genocide verdict does not exist, so we cannot use that term. Secondly, Armenians should admit to the rebellions, terrorism, treason, territorial demands, and the resulting Turkish suffering, before Turks admit any mistake— if you consider defending one’s home and one’s country a crime, then Turks are guilty as charged.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#125
THIS TURKISH-AMERICAN’S ANSWERS TO AN ARMENIAN’S QUESTIONS
(Bonus 2 of 2 )
11-“…Are the kurds lying too?..”
Some are.
12-“…In 1955 in Constantinople Armenians, Greeks and Jews were attacked and their stores vandalized…”
Constantinople was the Byzantium name for the city. When Turks conquered it in 1453, they changed the name to Istanbul. The fact that you still cannot accept, after some 500 years, that simple change shows the hatred and turmoil that is wreaking havoc in your inner world. I suggest you seek professional help on this. I am not joking. 1955 events are sad, wrong, and I, as a Turkish-American, apologize for them. I hope the Armenian have the decency to apologize to Turks one day for undermining the one thousand year old co-habitation with Turks in the name of establishing “Greater Armenia”. Was it worth it?
13- "...In 2007 Armenian jurnalist Hrant Dink was killed in the streets of Istanbul…”
Correct.
14-“…Under article 301 anyone can face a jail sentence for speaking their mind…”
Incorrect.
15-“.. Do you consider this freedom of speech or a form of discrimination…”
I consider this your ignorance of Turkish laws.
16-“…Hrant Dink was also sentenced but in his case unlike the ethnic Turks he was killed…”
Yes, he was. But Turks, young and old, denounced the killing and the killer. Thousands marched down Istanbul streets condemning this act of hate crime. Did you, or any Armenian anywhere around world, march down any street, denouncing the killing of a Turkish diplomat by a young Armenian terrorist? Ever? There were more than 200 acts of Armenian terrorism around the globe… Did you protest any one of them? Forget protesting, didn’t you actually collect money for their legal defenses? Didn’t you treat them as heroes? Telling, isn’t it… So, please stop lecturing other people on human rights. You people are probably the most violent people I have ever known. And you can take that to the bank!
17-“…Also every Turkish citizen must carry identification papers..”
Incorrect.
18-“…where their religion is stated…”
Correct.
19-“… why is that?..”
Old law. Will change. European Union is seeing to it.
20-“…Don't you feel this is discrimination?..”
Perhaps, I don’t know. I don’t like it, either, though and it is in the process of changing.
21-“…Christian religious properties have to pay a special tax which Moslems are exempt from….”
Incorrect.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#126
THIS TURKISH-AMERICAN’S ANSWERS TO AN ARMENIAN’S QUESTIONS
( Final )
29-“…Next time you go to a remote city or town in Turkey, wear a cross and see how you are greeted by everyone…”
You can go anywhere in Turkey wearing any symbol; you just cannot violate secular laws which limit such expression on public grounds. Every year, 20 million tourists come to Turkey for an unforgettable vacation. Recently, Armenians also discovered Turkey. Armenians were shockjed to find out that Turks have absolutely no ill will towards Armenians. Most don’t even care. Really! It’s only the lunatic diaspora that is so fanatic about their own warped take on Turkish-Armenian history.
30-“Also apply for a job wearing that same cross or a star of David…”
Private jobs, no problem. Government jobs, you are correct. If you don’t believe me, ask 100,ooo Armenian illegal workers in Turkey.
Last word: I have one suggestion to the Armenian diaspora: GET A LIFE!
Ergun Kirlikovali
Son of Turkish Survivors From Both Paternal & maternal Sides
www.turkla.com
PS: I was one of the pall bearers of the Turkish consul Kemal Arikan’s coffin in January 1982, killed by a young Armenian named Sassoonian. The Armenian community treated him like a hero and collected tens of thousands of dollars in Armenian churches for him. Think about it! Church supporting terrorism! I feel sorry for you people… I really do… Hatred is a very heavy burden to be carrying all your life…
References:
[1] AFATH - Armenian Falsifiers And Turk Haters
[2] TERESET - Temporary Resettlement
jda San Francisco, CA #127
Monday Nov 10
Bud wrote:
Your country? LOL I am an ex-marine, and in all my days of serving my country, I not once seen an Armenian enlisted in the army, marines, navy, etc. I seen plenty of Caucasians, African-Americans and Hispanics Armenians are free loaders and cry babies. The Middle Eastern folks also claimed this was their country until they backed stabbed us. You people not only lie but you cheat too. Despicable people. Yo all should be rounded and given a one-way ticket to get out of this country. We were better off with none of you in here.
Bud;
For starters, I suggest you find out who Victor "Transport" Maghakian and Harry Kizirian were before you pull out the Marine credentials. Both got the Navy Cross. Both were Marines. Transport was decribed as a one man Army with Carlson's Raiders at Makin Island, while Harry saved a stretcher party and four wounded Marines on Okinawa.
In WWII about 25,000 Armenian Americans served. Given that the community was very small, that was and still is a huge number. We had survivors of the Bataan Death March, among the paratroopers in Normandy, in air crews throughout the world, including friends of mine.
And while you're looking, try out Ernest der Vishian, winner of the CMH at Anzio.
By the way Armenians are about as Caucasian as possible - that's where they come from.
hit n run Berlin, Germany #128 Monday Nov 10
jda
The Armenian population in Germany was much smaller but they formed the Armenian Legion which consisted of 23.000 Armenians. You should have been more patriotic, at least as much as your NAZI brethren.
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
jda San Francisco, CA #129 Tuesday Nov 11
hit n run wrote:
jda
The Armenian population in Germany was much smaller but they formed the Armenian Legion which consisted of 23.000 Armenians. You should have been more patriotic, at least as much as your NAZI brethren.
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
As I thought was well-known even to morons, the ethnic legions which fought alongside the German Army were in fact Red Army POWs who chose three hots and a cot in the German Army to almost certain death in German POW camps. Georgians, captured Turkic nationals, Armenians, Caucasians, and Moslem soldiers were in these formations. Hitler proclaimed only to trust the Moslems, by the way. No more than a few dozen Armenians were actually in the German Army, not the special formations.
Nicht wahr?
hayeren Bordeaux ISP: Villejuif, France #130 Nov 11
Photo N°1 :
1915: Armenian deportees-women, children and elderly men. Woman in foreground is carrying a child in her arms, shielding it from the sun with a shawl; man on left is carrying bedding; no other belongings or food noticeable among effects being carried. All are walking in the sun on an unpaved road with no means of shelter from the elements. Location: Ottoman empire, region Syria.
Photo N° 2 : Scattered deportees in a desert wasteland, individually foraging for grain as their only source of food. There is no shelter, water, or habitation in sight.
http://www.teachgenocide.org/files/DocsMaps/A...
just-Rog Los Angeles, CA #131 Tuesday Nov 11
Armenians take your crying some place else. It's old and boring. Get a life and get over what the Turks did or did not do supposedly to you. Frankly, no one cares. If you don't, you are going to teach your kids to be BIG cry babies.
jda San Francisco, CA #132 Tuesday Nov 11
just-Rog wrote:
Armenians take your crying some place else. It's old and boring. Get a life and get over what the Turks did or did not do supposedly to you. Frankly, no one cares. If you don't, you are going to teach your kids to be BIG cry babies.
Just-Rog,
with over 800 comments, you apparently have quite a bit of time on your hands. With that time, maybe you can tell us all:
How do you get over the annihalation of your ancestors, and 3,000 years of culture without demanding justice for race-murder, for Genocide. Maybe you can tell us, the cjhildren and grandchildren, how to forget murder of our family members and their culture. Presumably, since you are giving out the advice, you have been through it.
How did you get over the murder of your race?
jda San Francisco, CA #133 Tuesday Nov 11
Mr. Kirlikovali,
In 1945, my grandmother Jenni died in the Matthausen Concentration Camp.
Several weeks later, the Camp was liberated by the Allies. Included in the American Army was her only survivor, my father, who escaped to the United States as a teenager. My grandmother, like your Balkan Turkish ancestors died a needless and tragic death, a death which we can all mourn.
But instead of expanding your humanity and empathy based upon the suffering of your family members, so as to embrace all who were deported and killed irrespective of ethnicity, you have actually embraced the attitudes and the very words of the killers themselves.
Your ridiculous list of Armenian misdeeds is pretty much the same nonsense my Grandmother had to hear from 1933 to the time of her deportation in a cattle car to the concentration camps, applied by Nazis to Jews:
that Jews were "traitors" to the German people (compare, your item 3);
that Jews were terrorists (your item 2);
that Jews were destroying the wholesome culture of the Germans and Aryans (your item 1);
that Jews wanted to take over Germany through Bolshevism as well as capitalism(your item 4);
that the Jews were merely to be resettled (your item 6).
You deny that Armenians were killed as a matter of state policy, but the real message of all you have written is that the Armenians had it coming. That they deservee to die - old, young, babies and grandparents alike. And, of course, that is just what really happenned.
There is more to my father's story. He separated from the American Army in 1950, met and married my mother, whose parents were survivors of the Armenian Genocide as well as the massacres of 1894-1896. Her parents and family became like the missing family my father had lost. They had all been through he same dislocation, murder, loss and exile.
If he or they had met your family, they all would have sympathized, and extended what humanity they had, for your grandparents lived through the same losses.
But, for some reason, you have come to identify with the Genocide deniers and the murderers instead of with the straggling survivors we all have in our histories; you are therefore much more similar to the Christians who persecuted your grandparents than to the good Turks and good Germans who helped the two sides of my family tree survive.
You are almost extinct. Today, more and more Turks, intellectuals and the common man and woman, acknowledge what their ancestors knew, and often disapproved of.
But you can also ask anyone who lives in the Levant: the intentional state destruction of the Armenians is common knowledge in every Kurdish, Alevi, Arab, Iraqi, Syrian, and Lebanese home, as it is commonly known to every Persian. To this day, there are yearly marches down Ferdowsi Boulkevard in Teheran on April 24 commemorating the Genocide, and the destruction of a 3,000 year old way of life in Anatolia.
Hit n Run Berlin, Germany #134 Tuesday Nov 11
to Jda
jda
Your great humanitarian speech has already crumbled to pieces by commenting on a topic that you are obviously not an expert and calling me “worse than moron”.
(Note: Sorry for the language. I am just quoting the great humanitarian JDA here...)
2 founders of the Armenian legion are Armenian national heroes and you are trying to sell it as a totally POW unit…! They fought against Turks (mostly civilians) and then after their defeat took a second route for an independent Armenia. Collaborating with the Nazis…
"As I thought was well-known even to morons" no decent country honors, worships, glorifies, white washes, or creates a role model out of a ruthless Nazi general! Yet Armenia gives an honor medal after the name of Nazi general Drastamat DRO kanayan as well as Garegin Nzdeh the Nazi collaborator.
see: 4th pic from the last.
http://www.mil.am/arm/...
"As I thought was well-known even to morons" no decent country honors, worships, glorifies, or makes a national hero out of a ruthless Nazi general! Yet Armenia has coins issued which have the picture of Nazi general Drastamat (DRO) kanayan. Countries generally put their most valuable sons on their money! Telling isn`t it...
see:
http://www.cba.am/CBA_SITE/currency/argcommem...
http://www.cba.am/CBA_SITE/currency/argcommem...
"As I thought was well-known even to morons" no decent person or organization honors, worships, glorifies, white washes, or erects monuments for a bloody Nazi general! Yet USA Armenians and their organizations collected 250.000 dollars to build a monumental mausoleum for Armenian Nazi general Drastamat (DRO) kanayan! And Armenia builds a research center after the name of this guy!
see: http://www.armeniandiaspora.com/forum/showthr...
you say “Hitler proclaimed only to trust the Moslems, by the way.”. I know you have a Hitler quote forgery for every occasion including Christmas and Easter (l am desperately waiting for the book “the banality of forgery”). But this site describes the “heroic” defense of Armenians in Normandy and their “great” assaults in Caucus and how Armenian soldiers had a fabulous reputation in the German army as “brave and invincible”. Obviously these guys were in real action. Not cleaning trash as not trusted units.
see: http://membres.lycos.fr/armenianlegion/
Just use babel fish translation if you can’t read Russian.
Having said that lets move to another topic.
Ironically you accuse Krikovali as follows: “But, for some reason, you have come to identify with murderers”… ;. Hmmm interesting point given the facts above… Who is raising an entire generation based on one sided hate stories and presenting bloody militant leader/ terrorists as heroes? Not Turks Mr. Maybe we can discuss this further while listening to revolutionary songs like “bank ottoman” or “lizbon 5”. What about that?(Just use you tube if u have no idea what they are.)
Hit n Run Berlin, Germany #135 Tuesday Nov 11
Finally
Look friend. In the village where my father was born there is a well filled with bodies of Turkish women and children and many of them were my close or distant relatives. They were killed by Armenian volunteers and/or Armenian guerrilla units. Most probably by Drastamad Kanayan`s horde. You insult people when it suits you, make a mockery of our losses all the time then give a long speech about humanity.
Is it so hard to understand that we are getting mad because Armenian`s killed hundred thousands of Turks in this Ethnic warfare and yet keep pointing the finger at us in a racist rhetoric. I started reading this issue several years before. At first I was feeling for the tragedy that Armenians suffered. Then I met the incredible creature called the Diaspora Armenian. I tried to listen to their stories and tried to share my family history. And every time their answer was a racist insult, mockery and a disgusting display of hate.
So please don’t come up with humanity lectures. It is not welcome especially when delivered by hypocrites.
Sorry for the strange symbols up the. they were supposed to be quotation marks
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI Irvine, CA #136 Wednesday Nov 12
JDA,
Stop hiding behind the Jeiwsh Holocaust, which is tried, upheld, and true. Armenian allegations of genocide were never tried and could not withstand the scrutign of a court room, as they are mostly discredited for being hearsay or forgeries.
When pressed with producing evidence, you who pictures of people walking or in ancampments. Well, that's not genocide! It is tereset (temporary resettlement). Ottoman-Armenians took up arms against their own government. At a time of war, no less... And joined the advancing enemy armies... What did you expect? Roses?
Since you obviously like hiding behind the factual Jewish Holocaust with your bogus genocide claims, answer this:
Did Jews establish Jewish armies behind German lines, harass German armies' rear, terroris German country side, kill half a million Germans, in order to establish a Jewish State on German soil during WWII ?
(Note: Ottoman-Armenian did all and much worse during WWI to Turks to which Turks were responded with a tereset, temporary resettlement)
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI Irvine, CA #137 Wednesday Nov 12
(Typos corrected and reposted)
JDA,
Stop hiding behind the Jewish Holocaust, which is tried, upheld, and true. Armenian allegations of genocide were never tried and could not withstand the scrutiny of a court room, as they are mostly discredited for being hearsay or forgeries.
When pressed with producing evidence, you show pictures of people walking or in ancampments. Well, that's not genocide! It is tereset (temporary resettlement). Ottoman-Armenians took up arms against their own government... at a time of war, no less... and joined the advancing enemy armies... What did you expect? Roses?
Since you obviously like hiding behind the factual Jewish Holocaust with your bogus genocide claims, answer this:
Did Jews establish Jewish armies behind German lines, harass German armies' rear, terrorize German country side, kill half a million Germans, in order to establish a Jewish State on German soil during WWII ?
(Note: Ottoman-Armenian did all and much worse during WWI to Turks to which Turks were responded with a tereset, temporary resettlement)
jda San Francisco, CA #138 Thursday Nov 13
Mr Hit and Run,
1. I wasn't calling you a moron etc. I was saying that I am not one, as I and pretty much everyone with a passing interest in WWII knows that the Armenian Legion was formed from German-captured POWs.
2. The Armenian experience was not unique: Most of the nations of western Europe had volunteer Waffen SS formations, while captured Soviet POWs all had their own national collaborators. Prominent among these were many Turkic-speaking peoples from the Caucasus, Central Asia and Russia itself, as well as Christian-origin Georgians, Moslem-origin Azeris, Lesghis, Circassians, North Caucasians, as well as Armenians and Ukrainians, plus Balts and even Greeeks from the Crimea, who were classified as Ukrainians.
3. The Armenians who supported the Germans were about 4 per cent of the Armenian Soviets who served. More than 20,000 Armenians died in the Battles of Stalingrad and Kursk alone on the side of the Soviets.
4. Turkey's role in WWII was less than heroic. She signed a nonaggression pact with Hitler five days before the invasion of the Soviet Union. True, she accepted 15,000 Jews, but like the United States, she did not acccept everyone seeking asylum, and most refugees had to pay a lot of bakshaish to get in. Turkey joined the Allies in 1945, only when Germany's unconditional surrender was clearly on the horizon.
5. I condemn Dro's collaboration with Nazis, of course. Do you condemn the Grand Mufti's collaboration with Hitler as readily?
6. You and the other anti-Armenians on this Board mistakenly portray Armenians as a monolith. Just as there are good and bad Turks, brave and cowardly, right and left, huamne and ultra nationalists among Turks, so too there are many different kinds of Armenians in Diaspora. What you don't seem to know is any actual Diaspora Armenians. If you did, you would know that most Armenian families have in their survival stories an essential Turk, Kurd or Arab who warned, hid or helped them in some vital way. I recognize that on meeting, many Armenians may tell you how angry their family and they are for what has happened, and for the denialist nonsense we read of daily. But get beyond that - there are social and humane groups of Turks, Kurds, Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians in every big City who listen to each other's family stories intently, and who see the similarity in our manners, appearances, cultures, attitudes and histories.
7. If Dro or anyone of Armenian origin killed innnocent non-combatants, that is of course a crime in the eyes of God and man, and I condemn it. The celebration of Dro has to do not with murder, but with defense of the Republic 1918 -1920. I can understand your disgust, nonetheless. Can you understand that Armenians feel the same way about Talaat Pasha and Kemal Ataturk, whose troops killed hundreds of thousands at Smyrna? Can you understand that the reverence shown Talaat is a deep insult to the memory of our ancestors?
8. Kemal Ataturk is a complicated figure. On the one hand, almost all Armenians readily agree with Turks that the western powers were trying post war to carve Turkey up for their own expansionist reasons. To the degree Ataturk saved Anatolia from partition, Armenians generally applaud this. We too do not want to be serfs of the French. On the other hand, when his troops took Smyrna, he did nothing to protect non-combatants. He also lit the Turkey for the Turks nonsense which burns in the Grey Wolf heart to this day. It killed Hrant Dink. It is simple racism. It impoverishes Anatolia to this day in every way.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI Irvine, CA #139 Thursday
JDA,
Do me a favor, and the other readers, and just google the words "Armenian Nazis". You will see the 20,000 strong Armenian-Nazi battallion. Not only these were members of the Armenian Nazi party which operated radio stations in Armenia during the 1930s, but also they were passionate killers of Jews. So much so, that they were trasported all the way to Holland to help with processing of Jews there. It would not surprise me a bit if I come accrsoos notes like the following in Ann Frank's diary and documents: The last group of Nazis seemed to have "darker skin", hinting Armenian-Nazis.
Also, please read my psot above and answer my question: Didi Jews establish Jewish armies behind German lines and kill germans in order o establish a Jewish state on german soil during WWII?
( Note that Ottoman-Armenians did all that and committed the most heinous crimes during WWI. Turks were onlt defending their home in the face of rebellions, terrorism, treason, and territorial demands.)
Hit n Run Berlin, Germany #140 Thursday
Dear jda
1. I really wonder how you come to a conclusion that we are Anti-Armenian. We are defending the honor of our ancestors here. We are simply trying to correct a miss presented piece of history which has virtually become a hate-speech itself. Have I come up with any racial remark or something? I don’t even deny that Armenians were killed. I am such saying they were killed in an ethnic conflict where thousands of Turks were also killed. In which way does this make us anti Armenians? Are we burning Armenian flags in the streets or what?
2. I personally hate Talat. He was a post office officer who by a terrible joke of fate came to power to rule an empire and his idiocy brought bloodshed to millions. No one really honors Talat or anyone from CUP in Turkey. They were long forgotten before the Armenian campaign. There is only one group which was formed relatively recently called “Talat Pasa komitesi”. And honestly their name indicates a “in your face” attitude rather than a real respect to Talat.
Atatürk was a middle class army commander in Gelibolu during 1915. Trying to get Atatürk involved is not only farfetched but I also get it as an indicator that Armenians are not after real history but after some kind of attack and insult to everything we respect.
3. What was Turkey supposed to do in WW2. The country was destroyed and wrecked by "allies" in WWI and after. Were we supposed to trust the very same countries that had the agenda to kick Turks back to Asia just 20 years ago? Our priority was to avoid another devastation... I don`t see any problem in that.
4. Who the hell is Grand Mufti? I had to check the net to get some info. He is a pathetic nobody. There is always a disgusting religious figure to be used by secret services when needed. He was nobody to Turks back then, he is nobody now. We are not issuing coins after his name that’s for sure. I won`t even feel the urge to condemn that scum.
5. I sure do know the details about the Nazi battalions. I also know that many more Armenians fought the Nazis.(Out of dedication to freedom and democracy? Or just because they were under Russian rule. That may also be questioned.) What matters here is that the same gang which made deals in the name of Turkish Armenians with imperialistic powers were back in the game in that period of history. These so called nationalistic Armenians (like Dro) used their “brothers” for almost any dirty business and called it patriotism. They were killing Turkish civilians and flaming ethnic hate in the region. Then they were collaborating with the Nazis in 1940s. Still Armenians regard them as their precious children; The heroes. That is sad.
Hit n Run Berlin, Germany #141 Thursday
6. Grey wolfs and their ridiculous ideology (which is more of a stupid non-homogenious mixture of nationalism and religious nonsense than an ideology) is simply the opposite of what we call Kemalism. Kemalist nationalist idea does not rely on race but citizenship. Most importantly Mustafa Kemal is only partially Turk. He may be half Macedonian or Albanian. Some even claim he was a Jew stating that he was born in the city of Selanik (65 - 70% percent of population was Jew back then. Surprising that no one asks what happened to them after Greeks took over the city.) The roots of Grey wolves lead back to Turanism which pursued the independence of Turkic nations under soviet rule. That ideology then was corrupted by the Nazi Germany and USA (seems contradictory but that’s the case). They simply served as the "Gladio" office in Turkey for decades. I regard this movement as a Western implanted tumor inside Turkey rather than a native movement. Their usage of Mustafa Kemal pictures in their meetings does not mean that they are pursuing his legacy.
7. "If Dro or anyone of Armenian origin killed innocent non-combatants"... You can be sure that they did and they killed hundreds of thousands and in most brutal ways you can think of. And their deeds are written in memoirs and books as well as Russian and Turkish army reports. There are more than 50 mass graves in Turkey filled with Turkish/Kurdish people. They were killed by Armenian gangs. One of these mass graves was in my father’s village. Excavated in 1984…
Look for the book "Men are like that" That is a first had description of their bloody legacy.
If you honestly want to learn about this, at least read this booklet: http://www.tsk.mil.tr/8_TARIHTEN_KESITLER/8_1...
It is the memoirs of a Russian commander.
8. A real humanitarian sheds tears for any victim. Not only for selected communities. Turks were swept away from lands that they lived for centuries. All of them became victims of exodus, ethnic cleansing and genocide. Today "who remembers the destruction of Turks" and says a single world about it? This is the real denial! We are raising our voice against it. Yet you are stigmatizing us as Denialist, Racist, anti Armenian etc. cause we are telling our suffering and only rejecting a label called "genocide".
Genocide is a well defined law term which inevitably reminds people of the Nazi Germany and Holocaust. What happened in the Ottoman Empire was not genocide but ethnic/civil war with two sides, in which the weaker side (Armenians) lost and thus suffered more. I come to this conclusion from the books that I have read (I have read a lot from both sides) and from my family history. Where is the crime in that?
(note: For some reason some quotation marks come out as gibberish. Sorry for that)
jda San Francisco, CA #142 Friday
H and R,
I appreciate that you want to defend the honor of your ancestors, and I suppose that if what I read here and elsewhere were limited to one's true ancestors, whose stories and names were known to the authors, that would be one thing.
But defending every ethnic Turk (or Armenian, or Kurd, or Norwegian)is quite another. If Turks killed Armenians and it was Genocide, all that proves is that under certain circumstances some Turks, like many in other ethnic groups, committed a terrible crime. If the world lasts long enough, probably every group will have members who will commit it against its neighbors.
But not every or even most Turks participated. Your ancestors are not implicated merely by being born into a specific cultural and language group. Unless your ancestors murdered, you have nothing to defend, just as I have nothing to defend in crimes Armenians may have committed. If they are guilty, they are guilty.
I don't think I dishonor anyone besides the evil-doers when I call out their acts and omissions. There is no guilt by association, not within families, and not by ethnicities.
If you see that the CUP leadership was corrupt and murderous, why is it a deeper stain on Turkish honor if they went one step further and decided to kill Armenians, and not merely deport them?
I do have sympathy for the ethnic Turks cleansed and killed wherever they lived and when. When you are a defenseless woman, elderly or disarmed man, or child, you experience terror and death as an individual, perhaps as a family member, not as part of an ethnic collective. That is why my father and my mother and her family understood the destruction of their families by men in uniform. All of whom were pitiless. That is why they would have understood your father's families and would have been sympathetic.
I agree that the death and dislocation of individuals thought to be of the oppressor group are often overlooked: the world pays scant attention to the Germans who were brutalized by the Red Army as they hurtled west, and in Berlin, where pretty much every female between 5 and 65 was raped, if not killed; at Jews killed and expelled from Arab countries since 1948, and yes, at Turkish-speaking and other Moslems in the Balkans and the Caucasus. This is not an "either - or" situation.
Try to understand the position of Armenians, in all their variety. The Istanbul community has been around for about 400 years. They cannot hold government jobs, cannot be officers in the military, cannot serve in the police in any capacity. They also live in a state of fear and anxiety. Their Patriarch is under physical threat. After Dink was killed, many left the country because people harassed them on the street and threatened them. I underatand that most Istanbul natives are not so bad, but the culture does not strongly condemn this racism. Unfortunately, the Turkish Armenians often do not get much help or support from outside Armenians or Greeks, who castigate them for being Turks.
My fondest hope for your country is democracy and free speech and freedom of religion. Where I, a holder of an EU passport, can live without fear in Eastern Anatolia.
Ergun KIRLIKOVALI Irvine, CA #143
The open-minded truth-seeker will quickly note that among all these messages, my question, repeated many times, did not get answered:
How many Muslims, mostly Turks, did Armenian kill during WWI?
What part of this question do the members of the AFATH community do not get? I want a number. 9Don't tell me you don't know; are you not the know-it-all who attempt ceaselessly teach everyone what to think all these years?)
The reason that CANNOT answer is simple: a low answer, we can quickly show it is a lie. A high answer proves it was a war, not genocide. A medium answer, still shows it was an inter-communal war fouht by iregular forces.
So they stay mom... No answer... They hoep that this question will be forgotten soon.(Wishful thinking if you ask me.)
So, again, to all those know-it--all member of the AFATH community, please answer this simple question.
How many Turks did you kill during WWII?
(Still waiting...)
Ergun KIRLIKOVALI Irvine, CA #144
(Types corrected and re-posted)
The open-minded truth-seekers will quickly note that among all the messages so far, my question alone, repeated many times, did not get answered, yet:
How many Muslims, mostly Turks, did Armenians kill during WWI?
What part of this question do the members of the AFATH community not get?
I want a number. And do not tell me you do not know the answer. After all, are you not the know-it-alls who demand ceaselessly to teach everyone what to think on the Turkish-Armenian conflict all these years?
The reason they CANNOT answer is simple:
A low answer, we can quickly show it is a lie.
A high answer proves it was a war, not genocide. A medium answer, still shows it was an inter-communal war fought by iregular forces.
So they stay mum... Prefer to give no answer... They hope that this question will be forgotten soon.(Wishful thinking if you ask me.)
So, again, to all those know-it-all members of the AFATH community, please answer this simple question:
How many Turks did you kill during WWII?
(Still waiting...)
Hit n Run Berlin, Germany #145
Dear Jda
I am actually very happy the way this "conversation" goes. This is probably the first time where I observe progress in terms of understanding each other. I appreciate that.
Lets me address some of your points:
Paragraph 1 to 4… Totally Agreed.
You say “I don't think I dishonor anyone besides the evil-doers”. You may feel that way and that may be true for many individuals. However Genocide is the ultimate crime and does not happen unless a great deal of the population has racist views which reach to the level of dehumanization. This was never the case with Turkish people.
Take a quick look at Wikipedia article on the topic. The take home message is “all Turks were racist barbarians with religious and ethnic hate so they killed all Armenians”. That’s how it’s presented.
You ask ”If you see that the CUP leadership was corrupt and murderous, why is it a deeper stain on Turkish honor if they went one step further and decided to kill Armenians, and not merely deport them?” For 2 reasons.
1. Because they simply did not directly order murder.(Yet murders happened!)
2. You know holocaust is quite different than any other war crimes for obvious reasons. Most importantly “Jews” were killed only because they were Jews. No political or strategic reason. OUT OF PURE EVIL! Why should we accept that stigma especially when it is not the case?
Other than my objections about the definition and one sided propaganda how can I say anything ridiculous about the Armenian suffering. It is a fact that these poor people suffered badly and many died a terrible death either of exhaustion, disease or direct murder.
I don’t want to go back to documents etc. Because you may think I am trying to white wash something. I will just note some sentences and ask you a question. If you can answer it with honesty we may even come to a conclusion.
1. According to ottoman archive documents 524.000 Turks were killed by Armenian Volunteers and Armenian guerrilla bands between 1914 and 1919. This is in line with our family stories, countless folk songs and requiems.(3.5 mil Muslims/Turks lost their lives in WWI and aftermath. So these picture is totally different that the German losses. Jews did not kill thousands of Germans)
2. In 1917 there were 170 Armenian officers in the ottoman army!
3. In 1913 ottoman treasury was governed by an Armenian. In 1914 the ambassador to England was an Armenian. Etc. etc. you can find many many examples.
4. The USA aid organization “Near East Relief” helped the needy Armenians in ottoman soil. The ottoman government allowed that and somewhat worked in coordination. How come a genocidal government lets people who are meant to die to get help?
5. Armenians living in Izmir and Istanbul as well as some other minor cities were untouched.
6. In 1916 the very same CUP government tried and punished 1600 ottoman officers for their mistreatment against Armenians. The guilty received sentences ranging from death penalty to 10 years or lifelong imprisonment.
Hit n Run Berlin, Germany #146
Just for a second assume that these statements are true (and they are). Do you still think that the events of 1915 have any resemblance to Holocaust? Do you still think that Turks should accept it was genocide?
In late 1980s Turkish and Armenian diplomats and politicians were meeting secretly. Turkey became the first country to recognize independent Armenia. They were about to come to a conclusion. In both sides of the border monuments in 2 languages were to be set up. With these monuments Turks and Armenians were to acknowledge the past murders, condemn it, apologize to each other and start a new future. Then BAM…! The Armenian prime minister assassinated.
I hope someday this can be achieved. It is in the benefit of us all.
Turks like me will always reach out a hand for friendship but we will never accept the “genocide” smear. Not because we are brainwashed by the government but that is the least we owe to our families laying in mass graves.
Honesty is all we want and it is the key to peace and healing.
Hit n Run Berlin, Germany #147
Dear Jda POST 1/ swich places with the upper
I am actually very happy the way this "conversation" goes. This is probably the first time where I observe progress in terms of understanding each other. I appreciate that.
Lets me address some of your points:
Paragraph 1 to 4… Agreed
You say “I don't think I dishonor anyone besides the evil-doers”. You may feel that way and that may be true for many individuals. However Genocide is the ultimate crime and does not happen unless a great deal of the population has racist views which reach to the level of dehumanization. This was never the case with Turkish people.
Take a quick look at Wikipedia article on the topic. The take home message is “all Turks were racist barbarians with religious and ethnic hate so they killed all Armenians”. That’s how it’s presented.
You ask ”If you see that the CUP leadership was corrupt and murderous, why is it a deeper stain on Turkish honor if they went one step further and decided to kill Armenians, and not merely deport them?” For 2 reasons.
1. Because they simply did not directly order murder.(Yet murders happened!)
2. You know holocaust is quite different than any other war crimes for obvious reasons. Most importantly “Jews” were killed only because they were Jews. No political or strategic reason. OUT OF PURE EVIL! Why should we accept that stigma especially when it is not the case?
Other than my objections about the definition and one sided propaganda how can I say anything ridiculous about the Armenian suffering. It is a fact that these poor people suffered badly and many died a terrible death either of exhaustion, disease or direct murder.
I don’t want to go back to documents etc. Because you may think I am trying to white wash something. I will just note some sentences and ask you a question. If you can answer it with honesty we may even come to a conclusion.
1. According to ottoman archive documents 524.000 Turks were killed by Armenian Volunteers and Armenian guerrilla bands between 1914 and 1919. This is in line with our family stories, countless folk songs and requiems.(3.5 mil Muslims/Turks lost their lives in WWI and aftermath. So these picture is totally different that the German losses. Jews did not kill thousands of Germans)
2. In 1917 there were 170 Armenian officers in the ottoman army!
3. In 1913 ottoman treasury was governed by an Armenian. In 1914 the ambassador to England was an Armenian. Etc. etc. you can find many many examples.
4. The USA aid organization “Near East Relief” helped the needy Armenians in ottoman soil. The ottoman government allowed that and somewhat worked in coordination. How come a genocidal government lets people who are meant to die to get help?
5. Armenians living in Izmir and Istanbul as well as some other minor cities were untouched.
6. In 1916 the very same CUP government tried and punished 1600 ottoman officers for their mistreatment against Armenians. The guilty received sentences ranging from death penalty to 10 years or lifelong imprisonment.
Booger Pasadena, CA #148 Tuesday Nov 18
Armenians are gypsies
jda San Francisco, CA #149 Wednesday
Mr Hit und Run,
I will answer your comments soon. In the meantime;
1. With regard to the Ottoman Archives, my understanding is that they are not open to just any scholar or interested person,, but are instead open only to scholars whom the government approves. I am reminded for example of the German scholar Hilmar Kaiser who was allowed some acess, and who was then disallowd from having further access once he became known for asserting that a Genocide occurred. Also, it was the CUP whose idealogues called for the death of Armenians, and whose leaders misused the Ottoman apparatus, in my view, to carry out Genocide not only againstt them, but also against Assyrians and later, Greeks of Pontus. The archives of the CUP have never been made available. So when you say that the Ottoman Archives show that Armenians killed 500,000 Turks, we don't necessarily have an unbiased document, and the ability to look for Genocide evidence is limited by the needs of the Turkish state.
And while I am at it, let me address the callls for the Genocide issue to be resolved by historians. First, academics by nature do not agree on much, and there is no reason to believe they would agree on this issue by virtue of their predispositions, even if they were all Lapps, Uruguayans and Siberians, with no affilaition with Christian Anatolians or Turks.
Second, the Turkish government does not tolerate free inquiry or freedom of expression into whether there was a Genocide of the Christian Anatolians - if a Turkish professor says there was or probably was one, he stands liable for prosecution under 301, or of being shot by the Turkish version of the KKK. Should that Professor, like Quaetert, come to asssert that there was a Genocide, he willl be asked to renounce his own conclusions or step down from any organization funded by the state.
You make much of Turkish Honor, and as individuals I agree that Turks have this virtue, just as the other peoples of Anatolia do. But the Turkish state is a different thing altogether.
2. I have never heard of Armenian officers in the WWI Ottoman Army. I have heard, and the scholarship seems to confirm that Armenian males were conscripted into unarmed labor battalions, where they were uniformly killed, usually by their fellow soldiers. I have never heard of Armenian men in large numbers surviving conscription. I have even heard family stories of Armenian doctors who were conscripted and killed, despite their skillls.
3.I agree that the sons of the loyal milllet often did well in the Ottoman government. We claim Sinan as one of ours, as I am sure you know. But not after 1915.
4. Actually, Near East relief and other organizations were not allowed to help Armenians on the march. Many church workers were not allowed to help them. I don't know one way or the otrher about Ottoman control of the camps in Aleppo etc., but I do know that even at the camps Armenians were often kileld by Turkish soldiers.
5. Most scholars have written that the Armenians of Izmir and Istanbul were not molested because there was a strong western and Levantine presence inthese cities. Bad publicity. But why were Armenians and Assyrians killled throughout Anatolia, often hundreds or thousands of miles from the Eastern Front?
6. I am not aware that the CUP punished anyone in 1916 except for stealing the property of dead Armenians.
More later.
Rick
Los Angeles, CA
#150
Thursday
Armenians, GO HOME. You have become such a pest with all your winning and not to mention your crooked business practices. American should boycott all your businesses to send the message that we don't deal crooked in this country. It was all fine and dandy until you guys decided to invade America. Geez, go home, losers.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#152
Thursday
1 of 5
TURKISH STATE ARCHIVES ARE OPEN
SCHOLARS FROM 80 COUNTRIES HAVE ALREADY CONDUCTED STUDIES THERE SINCE 2003 ( www.turkla.com )
When the Republic of Turkey was established in 1923 over the remains of 623-year old Ottoman Empire, she inherited the glorious legacy of the empire that spread over three continents for more than six centuries. There were, as a popular Ottoman saying goes,“72 millets” in the empire. All religions (from Islam to Christianity to Buddhism to Shamanism and more) were represented; more than 100 languages and/or dialects were spoken. All of these nations were able to maintain their identity, religion, and traditions; basically rule themselves, and prosper, thanks to the little known “millet system”.
Those territories and nations that were ruled rather peacefully for many centuries under the Ottoman “millet system” seem to have plunged into an endless cycle of military and/or social conflicts since they became independent: the Balkans, the Caucasus, the Middle East, North Africa, central Asia... While the genie is out of the Ottoman bottle and cannot be put back in, and I am not advocating such an archaic and obsolete idea anyway, there is still something to be said about this “millet system”. Some Western writers even suggested recently that the millet system deserves another look as it could solve many of the problems and violent conflicts around the globe today, including but not limited Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Israel-Palestinian, former Yugoslavia and former Soviet republics, and others.(Armenian aggression and ethnic cleansing in Azerbaijan, however, must be stopped and the situation rolled back to pre-war conditions first to benefit from the magic touch of the millet system.)
My intention in this essay is not to propose the “Ottoman Millet System” as a cure-all remedy for all the current conflicts around the world (though that idea definitely deserves another look), but to share with you the fact that the written archives of that magnificent empire are maintained meticulously by The Turkish State Archives since 1923.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#153
Thursday
TURKISH STATE ARCHIVES ARE OPEN (cont’d : 2 of 5)
The Ottoman Imperial Archives is one of the richest in the world and, naturally, the most frequently consulted collection of written sources with regard to the 1915 events. Any research that failed to consult the Turkish State Archives in matters relating to the common histories of Middle and Near East, Balkans, Mediterranean, North Africa, Arabic countries, Caucasus, and beyond, would simply be incomplete. It would be like trying to solve a dispute between two parties by hearing only one of those parties. It would be unfair, incorrect, unscholarly, and unethical.
The General Directorate of State Archives under Turkish Prime Ministry, located in Ankara, Turkey, has taken all the necessary measures to enable the fast and effective availability of documents to researchers. Turkish State Archives have been brought in line with European Union regulations, which means relevant laws have been amended to enable the same-day-issuance of the research permits. A comprehensive web page (www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr) has been created to include digital copies of classified documents and their translation into contemporary Turkish. Inclusion of English translations of the authentic documents is underway. These initiatives have already resulted in scholars from 80 countries to engage themselves in the archives since 2003.
CLAİMS OF THE ARMENİAN LOBBY
The Armenian lobby which pushes hard for the recognition of their claim of genocide continue to also allege that the Turkish State archives are “not open at all”,“not open fully”,“have been cleansed of certain documents”; or that the archives belonging to Teşkilat-ı Mahsusa (Ottoman Intelligence Agency) or to the Ottoman Army are hidden; or that Talat Paşa had sent to his officials, two conflicting orders at the same time, carrying the same document number, the “evil” one of which was to be destroyed upon reading... Let us analyze those accusations one by one.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#154
Thursday
TURKISH STATE ARCHIVES ARE OPEN (cont’d : 3 of 5)
The Ottoman Empire has one of the most developed and rooted archiving traditions in the world. This system, which is still being used, requires each and every document to have a distinct document and file number. Furthermore, a copy of the identical document is possessed by several government institutions and relevant bodies, as well as international interlocutors, depending on the content.
In this system, it is almost impossible to fail to notice the absence of a particular document as the document numbers progress consecutively. Moreover, the same document would have to be removed from ALL institutions’ archives, with a hopefully-very-lucky prediction of which institutions, besides the actual addressee, might have received a copy a hundred years ago.
It is for this reason that the order of temporary resettlement (May 27, 1915), order for the arrest of the leaders of Armenian revolutionary committees (April 24, 19915), orders regarding the measures taken for the protection of Armenian orphans and properties (throughout 1915 and 1916), are to be found in matching copies in various different sub-archives of the Ottoman system. It is simply impossible to carry out a “perfect cleansing” of hundreds of thousands of documents spread to thousands of known and unknown institutions over many years (1914-1923) to a degree that not one scholar, researcher, or historian in the past 90+ years was able to come up with a single evidence that shows the alleged Ottoman intent to exterminate Armenians.
In the absence of the possibility of the complete destruction of any particular document, a second option of “cleansing” would be to replace or revise a document, which again seems rather risky in today’s techniques of identifying the authenticity of any artifact.
ARMENIAN ALLEGATİONS THAT TESKILAT-I MAHSUSA AND MILITARY ARCHİVES ARE NOT OPEN
The Ottoman Military archives’ documents are under the supervision of Turkish Chief of Staff and available, along with the Collection of First World War, including the correspondence of the TESKILAT-I MAHSUSA, to those interested researchers.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#155
Thursday
TURKISH STATE ARCHIVES ARE OPEN (cont’d : 4 of 5)
ARMENIAN ALLEGATİONS THAT İTTİHAT VE TERAKKİ ARCHİVES ARE NOT OPEN
Allegations that “İttihat ve Terakki (Unıon and Progress Party in Power at the time) archives are not open”:
The correspondence by the leaders of the İttihat ve Terakki Partisi ( The Party of Unıon and Progress) from the dates of the party’s ascendance to power to the end of their rule, have been included and classified in the Ottoman Archives and made available with unlimited access to those interested sholars.
ARMENIAN ALLEGATİONS THAT TALAT PASHA SENT DOUBLE TELEGRAMS, ONE CONFLICTING WITH THE OTHER
Allegations that “Talat Paşa had sent two conflicting orders under the same document number: the good one to be kept ın fıles for all to see, and the evıl one to be destroyed after enacted”:
This far-fetched argument can be held against any document of any archive in the world. It is indeed a challenge that would bring into question the validity of all archives in the world and the whole idea of archiving.
Furthermore, it would be unrealistic to assume that Talat Paşa, in 1915, predicted that some thirty years later, a crime called “genocide” would be invented and that he, himself, would be accused of it; and that for this reason he had to create a secondary system of communication, in the heat of a war when the very survival of the state was in question.
Leave it to Armenians, like Andonian, to fabricate, lie, distort, allege, and do everything else to defame, but still produce no evidence. There are sayings for just this kind of behavior:
“Throw the mud on the wall; even if it is washed away, there will still be a stain.”
“If enough people tell the same lie enough times, people will eventually start believing.”
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#156
Thursday
TURKISH STATE ARCHIVES ARE OPEN (cont’d : 5 of 5)
WHAT EXACTLY ARE WE LOOKİNG FOR İN THE ARCHİVES?
In 1919, 140 of Turkish prominent figures of the time were arrested and deported to Malta by Great Britain, with 58 of these being charged with outrages to Armenians both in Turkey and Southern Caucasus. Upon the British government’s initiative to bring these officials before a tribunal, the Law Officers of the Crown, in a memorandum to the Cabinet dated August 4, 1920, documented that no material evidence existed about such “massacre”–although they had free access to the Ottoman archives in İstanbul that was under Allied occupation- and abstained from accusing any of the Turkish deportees.
Attorney General refused to get involved in such a case, where he carefully avoided the usage of the term “massacre”, which was frequently referred to by Allied wartime propaganda machines. Consequently, all Turkish deportees in Malta were returned safely to Turkish soil October 31, 1921.
What is even more ironic is the fact that the British prosecutors had the “Blue Book” in their hands, a wartime propaganda book compiled by Bryce and Toynbee listing Armenian tall tales fabricated by Armenian nationalists, clergy and circulated by the U.S. Protestant missionaries, which book convicted and condemned the Turks in its first page and every page after that... Imagine that!
The British legal experts would dismiss a British-written book, the main pillar on which the Armenian lobby base their claim of genocide even to this day! And the Armenian attempts to document such a grave accusation as “genocide”, to this day, remain in vain.
The permanent failure of the Armenian lobby to find any proof of their false accusations of genocide in the Ottoman Archives would understandably direct the partisans of the “official Armenian position”, to question the reliability of a centuries’ old tradition of state archiving, instead of the reliability of the Armenian accusations.
Yet, it is high time that somebody reminds the “archive-bashers” that the Armenian archives in Yerevan, and Tashnak and Armenian Republic Delegation Archives in Boston have been kept behind closed doors altogether. Talk about shameful double standards.
If information is power, then the awesome power of the Turkish archives still await their unleashing...
And those partisans who love to claim that the alleged Armenian Genocide is an open and shot case, might as well prepare for the ultimate humiliation. The truth is already bringing the Armenian house of cards tumbling down...
###
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#157
Thursday
TURKISH STATE ARCHIVES ARE OPEN (cont’d : 2 of 5)
The Ottoman Imperial Archives is one of the richest in the world and, naturally, the most frequently consulted collection of written sources with regard to the 1915 events. Any research that failed to consult the Turkish State Archives in matters relating to the common histories of Middle and Near East, Balkans, Mediterranean, North Africa, Arabic countries, Caucasus, and beyond, would simply be incomplete.
It would be like trying to solve a dispute between two parties by hearing only one of those parties. It would be unfair, incorrect, unscholarly, and unethical.
The General Directorate of State Archives under Turkish Prime Ministry, located in Ankara, Turkey, has taken all the necessary measures to enable the fast and effective availability of documents to researchers. Turkish State Archives have been brought in line with European Union regulations, which means relevant laws have been amended to enable the same-day-issuance of the research permits.
A comprehensive web page (www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr) has been created to include digital copies of classified documents and their translation into contemporary Turkish. Inclusion of English translations of the authentic documents is underway. These initiatives have already resulted in scholars from 80 countries to engage themselves in the archives since 2003.
CLAİMS OF THE ARMENİAN LOBBY
The Armenian lobby which pushes hard for the recognition of their claim of genocide continue to also allege that the Turkish State archives are “not open at all”,“not open fully”,“have been cleansed of certain documents”; or that the archives belonging to Teşkilat-ı Mahsusa (Ottoman Intelligence Agency) or to the Ottoman Army are hidden; or that Talat Paşa had sent to his officials, two conflicting orders at the same time, carrying the same document number, the “evil” one of which was to be destroyed upon reading... Let us analyze those accusations one by one.
jda
San Francisco, CA
#158
Thursday
Things must be a little slow in the polymer business, Ergun.
Ergun, do you concede that any Turkish government officials, soldiers, militia, gendarmes, special action units, released prisoners or governors of any kind murdered or ordered the murder of any Armenians, Assyrians or Greeks between 1915 and 1923, and if you do, how many were killed?
Do you ever stop, as many Turks from Turkey living there and abroad do, to extend condolensces to the memory of the Christians of Anatolia, whether you think they were murdered by state action or were merely the unlucky victims of subpar logistical practices?
jda
San Francisco, CA
#159
Friday
Rick wrote:
Armenians, GO HOME. You have become such a pest with all your winning and not to mention your crooked business practices. American should boycott all your businesses to send the message that we don't deal crooked in this country. It was all fine and dandy until you guys decided to invade America. Geez, go home, losers.
So 'Rick', in what part of our "fine and dandy" country did you learn to write just like someone for whom English is a third or fourth language?
Odd, that someone with such mangled syntax should have such a very American name.
I am Armenian, and like most of my family and friends, I was born here. Come to think of it, so was my Armenian mother. And her mother came here in about 1905 escaping as a young girl from the 1894-1896 massacres.
Her 'home" was Marash, from which all the remaining Armenians (who repatriated in 1920) were chased out under threat of death by Kemalist forces in 1922.
So, why should I go there, exactly?
Hit n Run
Berlin, Germany
#160
Friday
Dear Jda
I am sad to see that you as an open minded person have fallen victim to propaganda. In Turkey you can buy all types of book that support the Genocide thesis. They are on sale in any book shop. There are many people openly supporting this thesis. There is a major newspaper that keeps writing articles on this issue at a hysterical level. Just yesterday and today I read really provocative articles in Turkish newspapers. Codes that are similar to Article 301 are present in many European states too. Still the way it is used in Turkey is disturbing. Yet you won’t be accused of it if you talk about genocide. You will be brought to court only if you use insulting words. Such as “the dirty Turkish blood”. On the other hand no honest individual can claim that current Armenia is more democratic than Turkey or democratic at all.(A Turk who was supporting the Genocide thesis was arrested in Yerevan because he had some books related to the issue in his possession.)
The same holds true for Western countries. Today it is almost impossible to publish a book that rejects the genocide thesis in USA or Canada. How do I know it? I witnessed an effort myself.
It is funny to see how Armenians keep lecturing us about the democracy in Turkey and how “impossible̶ 1; it is to talk about this issue. While Armenians regard Turks as brainwashed we watch in real time how your organizations create a lie and how that propaganda reaches all naïve Armenians; absorbed by them and brought back to us. The archives story is just another example.
There are some Turks who believe that it was genocide and the rest reject it. There is a harsh but somewhat healthy debate in Turkey. In a country where there are over 50 mass graves filled with Turkish people, some come out and say it was genocide. Absurd but in today’s world you can find people supporting all types of thoughts. We are yet to see a single Armenians to say it was not genocide! Don’t you think there is something extremely pathological here?
What I am saying is; I find it really exhausting to continue a debate if we are to keep blindly accepting all Diaspora generated propaganda and rubbish from third class "genocide scholars" whose selective quotations, miss presentations and miss translations are famous in the history communities. Not to mention the use of forgeries. How am I so sure of that? I have read the originals.
1. The Armenian leaders of that time continuously bragged about 150.000 Armenians in the regular army and 40.000 guerilla units fighting the Turks. These units were set up long before the WWI.
2. Ottoman state offered autonomy to Armenians in 1914 if they side with the ottoman state in WWI. They rejected this. They resisted mobilization, conscription and joined the enemy.
These are solidly documented from the Armenians leaders own declarations, books and other documents as well as historical newspapers. If you still think that this is similar to holocaust obviously nothing can change your mind.
I for myself read only the original documents. Not the “historians̶ 1; with an agenda (from both sides). You can also read this Near East Relief report to see how many Armenians are alive after the deportations and the War. Also what Near East Relief did and whether Turks helped or hindered the relief work. Official Near East Report not some hear say story:
http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2008/02/23...
Finally there is an international court for these issues you know. Armenians can always apply if they think their genocide thesis is so solid.
just-Rog
Los Angeles, CA
#161
Friday
I was told by an Armenian taxi driver once that Armenia suported Adolph Hitler. Something about getting them some land or letting them occupy part of Turkey after the war. He also mentioned that the "Young Turks" were all Jewish and it was a Jewish conspiracy to oust Armenians from Turkish lands they were squatting on. Armenians know more Fairy Tales than the brothers Grimm. It's no wonder Armenians and Gypsies walk hand in hand, they have an excuse for everything.
Alma
La Puente, CA
#162
Friday
Armenians are turkeys!
jda
San Francisco, CA
#163
Friday
just-Rog wrote:
I was told by an Armenian taxi driver once that Armenia suported Adolph Hitler. Something about getting them some land or letting them occupy part of Turkey after the war. He also mentioned that the "Young Turks" were all Jewish and it was a Jewish conspiracy to oust Armenians from Turkish lands they were squatting on. Armenians know more Fairy Tales than the brothers Grimm. It's no wonder Armenians and Gypsies walk hand in hand, they have an excuse for everything.
Just-rog,
1. How can Armenians squat on lands they occupied since before the time of Homer, e.g. 800BC? By contrast, Turkish language conquerers arrived in Anatolia well after the birth of Christ.
2. The thesis that Djemal, Talaat and even Ataturk were hidden or 'crypto' Jews has been around for a long time. I believe the most recent version of this claim was made in a Turkish language book written by a Turk, published in Turkey, and is fairly popular there, jusdging by sales. However, Hitler is a subject of interest in Turkey - Mein Kampf appears to be a perennial best seller.
3. Pretty much every country has self-professed Nazis and Hitler admirers. There are even a few in Israel, primarily from the non Jewish immigrants from Russia. There were Nazis in Berlin during the War who were actually Russians. However, it is doubtful that the Armenian Soviets, who lost over 200,000 war dead had any.
jda
San Francisco, CA
#164
Friday
Dear H and R,
I must write fast, so I can watch the crash of all my generation considers important.
1. I do not monitor 301 prosecutions, but my impression is that in the Turkish system, any person feeling aggrieved may bring a criminal case, as the nationalist lawyer and probable Ergenekon member Keresicz has done many times. What I have read is very firm that if a person asserts there was Genocide of the Christian anatolians, they are subject to being sued under the statute. Even the mere threat of prosecution has a chilling effect.
I also recall that a case was brought against Elif Shafak merely because a fictional character in her book said it. Yes, the case was thrown out, but she had to face the court.
The scholar who was arrested at Yerevan airport was a Kurd from Turkey, who was accused of taking antique books from the country. In fact, he bought them at the Vernissage market. Most Armenian intellectuals signed petitions for his release, as did PEN and everyone who was paying attention.
I am very sorry to see you use the false quote about Turkish blood, which was the claim made against Dink, and for which he was prosecuted, and later killed by Samast. I do not read Turkish or Armenian, but my recollection is that he was using this phrase not to describe Turks, but to chide some Armenians of the Diaspora for racist feelings they hold. Dink's other statements never contained racist comemnts about Turks. He disagreed about the Genocide with the state, but he disagreed just as strongly with some tactics of some Diasporans.
Many friends of mine met and knew Dink, who really would have helped us all see, in Saroyan's words, that we were made from the same mortar.
I agree that there should be free speech everywhere. If Turks want to say in Switzerland or France there was no Genocide, the best antidote is more speech, not less speech.
I want to see Turkey in the EU, as most Armenians I know do, and as the Republic of Armenia's leadership does, and want to see it adopt Enlightenment ideals, including complete freedom of speech. I agree that European nations that do not meet this standard are poor models.
Finally, I would say that both Armenia and Turkey have serious problems with free speech and democratic values. Two days ago a reporter I know was beaten in Yerevan, Edik Baghdasarian. In neither country have these cultural norms taken root in the way they have here and in the other English-speaking and Nordic countries. They are absent throughout the former Soviet Union, and the middle East. Give it a few centuries.
Hit n Run
Berlin, Germany
#165
Friday
Dear Jda
Just a clarification...
"The dirty Turkish blood" is not a false quote. I have read the original in Turkish. Dink has written that sentence... But as you said the article had nothing to do with "insulting Turkishness" and he was actually criticizing the Turcophobic Armenians. The sentence was a bit problematic in terms of Turkish (grammar) which may be falsely understood as an insult (only) by people who are already prone to getting annoyed.
I am fine with the essence of code 301. But the way it is used is not cool at all.
Hrant Dink was our chance (also a chance for the Turkish republic). I still get totally sad and really angry when I remember the terrible event.
For Elif Safak a case must be brouht for coming up with terrible novels and insulting literature.:)
jda
San Francisco, CA
#166
Saturday
Hit n Run wrote:
Dear Jda
Just a clarification...
"The dirty Turkish blood" is not a false quote. I have read the original in Turkish. Dink has written that sentence... But as you said the article had nothing to do with "insulting Turkishness" and he was actually criticizing the Turcophobic Armenians. The sentence was a bit problematic in terms of Turkish (grammar) which may be falsely understood as an insult (only) by people who are already prone to getting annoyed.
I am fine with the essence of code 301. But the way it is used is not cool at all.
I imagine that it is about
Hrant Dink was our chance (also a chance for the Turkish republic). I still get totally sad and really angry when I remember the terrible event.
For Elif Safak a case must be brouht for coming up with terrible novels and insulting literature.:)
Dear H and R,
And so we agree that there are many people on both sides of the Anatolian chasm who are prone to annoyance and worse. Hotheads from a hot climate.
I think one of the ways to reduce this is to have Turks and Armenians (plus Assyrians, Greeks, Kurds, Arabs, etc.) know each other and each others' family stories better. In the diaspora, we Armenians do not know Turks.
I have been to some meetings where this occurred in California. Some were open minded as to the other side, some were not, this was mutual.
I learned:
1. Despite each sides' hotheads denouncing the other sides' hotheads, these are two groups which are physicallly indistinguishable, and whose manners in social settings are identical, so far as I can tell. Of all the groups I have met, the Turks were the most similar to the Armenians.
2. The Genocide of the Armenians - yes, I know you disagree - was wholly unknown even as a deportation to the Turks from Istanbul, despite good educations, unless they went to college.
3. While the Genocide is very important to Armenians worldwide, it is merely one of a 100 issues to the Turks who accept it as true. I felt crestfallen that somethiong so important to me was so unimportant even to Turks who agree.
An irony is that the Genocide is more important to the Turkish state and to posters like Kirlikovali, who seem to have the same level of intensity that the most committed Tashnags have. The Turkish state would do itself a favor by not denying the Genocide so strenuously - they promoite its fame by denying it so loudly.
Hit n Run
Berlin, Germany
#167
Saturday
Dear Jda
I agree with most of what you have written and happy that we are be able to understand each other. Actually in Turkey many Armenians from Armenia and Turks are living side by side and getting to know each other, not to mention our own Armenians. Up to date there has been only progress and no bad incidents at all. What I clearly see is if the Diaspora had not started this ridiculous crusade of getting recognition from foreign countries this problem would have been solved between Armenia and Turkey.
My remarks about your points.
1.There is no doubt that Armenians and Turks are very much alike. No surprise in that, we lived together for a 1000 years. But with all my honesty I cannot agree with one thing; the level of hatred and dehumanization in the Diaspora Armenians are far more intense and totally incomparable to Turks in general. The rhetoric is simply racist in Armenian forums! It is not simple blog bigotry! A well established and learned ideology. Turks also do get out of the line, curse etc (and we like cursing a lot indeed) but have never devised such a systematic racist arsenal of arguments and "insults dictionary". As far as I have observed, for a considerable number of Diaspora Armenians, a Turk is a member of mongoloid, barbarian, sub-humans who are the scum of the universe. A Turk may say “Armenian dogs” but never “Armenian gypsies”.(Simple curse vs racist rhetoric).
How are we going to overcome that? If Turkey and Armenia starts normal relations someday, what are you going to do with all that racist Tashnag youth?
2. You are quick to come to conclusions about Mr. Kirlikovali. If the conversation has developed a little bit different I would have posted much more aggressive answers than him. This has been the case many times. If in the 2.post someone comes out and says "you barbarian Turkish dogs should go back to your caves in Asia". You won´t be able to keep calm. This happens all the time so when we get into a discussion with an Armenian we expect only the worst.“learned helplessness” in terms of conducting a civil discussion.
I personally don’t know Mr. Kirkliovali. But respect his legitimate ways to fight against a hate campaign very much. Look at the topic. He raised a small sum of money to support a congressman candidate and he is pointed and insulted as if he did something terribly wrong or committed a crime. He is on the hit list because he did something that Armenian community always does at an immense scale. Rest assured that he is receiving thousands of insults and death threats from the Armenian community weekly. What do you expect? I find him very cool given the circumstances.
Rejecting the Genocide thesis has nothing to do with a hate speech or Racism!
This is a part I take a deep breath and try to find the correct words. I am not bringing this to score a point neither I wish to get kind of “the upper hand”. this is a “dilemma” for me and I wish to learn your thoughts. I don’t want to hurt you in anyway also. Sorry if I chose any wrong words.
I find it incomprehensible that Armenians are constantly lobbying to people who actually don’t give a s..t to their tragedy. I find it incomprehensible that every Armenian organization letter starts with a touchy requiem and ends up with” come on donate money”.“My dear martyred family”,“the corrupt politician” and “money collecting ANCA” how do these come together? Aren’t you degrading your own sacred memories? From the eastern ethics of (so to say)“chivalry”–an ethic that Armenians shared for thousands of years- this is simply unacceptable.
This is a main point in terms of shaping the mind of an ordinary Turkish person. They look at this combination and come to this conclusion; “paahh they are f… lying!”
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#168
Saturday Nov 22
GENOCIDE CROWDS ARE THE NEW KKK
Turks are the new Jews. Genocide crowds are the new KKK.
Although there has been no due process or a jury verdict by any competent tribunal, these genocide crowds have already made up their minds about the characterization of the Turkish-Armenian conflict during WWI. Facts, figures no longer matter to them as they are all classified under the heading denials.
These genocide lynch mobs burn crosses not on Turkish lawns (yet,) but in public conscience. They claim, scream, and attack… They insult, intimidate, and terrorize… They already have their chosen verdict in their minds which comforts their anti-Turkish bias: Turks are guilty and there is no need to discuss this lay verdict; it is execution time… get the rope!
To these genocide lynch mobs, there is only one side to their coin: their side… The Armenian side… Armenians are all white; Turks are all black. And that’s that… They want you to believe their black and white picture. There is no gray areas for them. So, don’t even think of bringing it up, or you will be labeled a denier and hung in their minds and souls.
If you believe these genocide lynch mobs, they’ll love you instantly. And if you question them even in the lightest degree, they will hate you instantly. This love/hate relationship is evident in all of their letters, op-eds, newspaper columns, book, documentaries, films, and more. They are so arrogant about it that they see no reason to hide it or sugar coat it.
These genocide lynch mobs will have you believe that April 24, 1915, is the start of their bogus genocide. What happened that day? The Ottoman Government Home Security forces launched a drag net operation and arrested some of the Armenian ring leaders who were involved in terrorist attacks, rebellions, and/or treasonous acts. These were seemingly respectable Armenian community leaders— just like that Topalian fellow whose pictures with American presidents adorned his office before he was finally caught, convicted, and imprisoned of terrorism charges a few years back. To Armenians, April 24, 1915 embodies genocide (how hollow, meaningless, and unjustified.) To Turks, it represents defending your home against domestic terrorist cells, not unlike an Ottoman version of Guantanamo.
But you cannot discuss April 24, 1915, the Ottoman-Guantanamo-Not-Armenia n-Genocide concept, because their hatred quickly takes over their reason. You cannot prove to them that, for example, Gomidas, an Armenian priest and a musician, was let go after a while when the charges against him could not be proven. Gomidas went back to Istanbul first and then moved to Europe eventually, and died in France. This episode alone is powerful enough an example to prove to any open-minded truth-seeker that Turks had no intention of eliminating those few Armenian leaders arrested for foul play. More than a few were eventually let go. But you cannot discuss these facts with the genocide lynch mobs, No Sir. If you do, your life may be in danger (see Armenian terrorism, www.Turkla.com ., Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, and Part 4.)
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#169
Saturday Nov 22
(Genocide Lynch Mobs, continued, Part 2 of 2)
Neither can you debate with these genocide lynch mobs, the Armenian rebellions that started in 1890 and went uninterrupted until the most heinous and bloodiest of them all, the VAN Rebellion in Feb-April 1915, which caused their TERESET (temporary resettlement) in May 1915 and lasted until the spring of 1916.
Neither can you debate with these genocide lynch mobs, the Armenian terrorism which started in 1882 and continued until 1921. After a hiatus of about 50 years, it re-started in 1973 with the Santa Barbara killings of two Turkish diplomats by an older, hate-filled Armenian man. You cannot show these lynch mobs the threads of continuity in their love affair with aggression, violence, and terrorism.
They feel they are blameless. Victims are to blame for standing on the trajectory of the Armenian bullets! Such blinded are these genocide lynch mob by their hatred for all things Turkish. They need help. The psychological kind, I mean.
Neither can you debate with these genocide lynch mobs, the Armenian treason that started in 1914 and climaxed in 1915. You cannot show these genocide lynch mobs documents from their own Armenian archives (like the 1919 Nubar letter and the 1923 Katcahznouni Manifesto, and many others like those) proving Armenian treason and how wrong it was then and it still is now…
Neither can you debate with these genocide lynch mobs, the Armenian territorial demands since 1877, going unabated to this very date. The irony is not lost: the Armenians were not even a majority in those areas and if the Armenians succeeded in realizing their delusion, the Greater Armenia, it would have been the first apartheid regime in the 20th Century where a tiny Armenian minority would be ruling over a massive non-Armenian majority.
Is this a dream worth taking up arms against your own government, terrorizing your neighbors and joining the advancing enemy armies?
Was it worth it?
After all, didn’t all these heinous Armenian crimes force Turks to defend their home, like any citizen anywhere, including the U.S., would do?
Was not Tereset a direct outcome of Armenian rebellions, terrorism, and treason?
In short, you cannot discuss anything with these genocide lynch mobs. But you know what? Truth does not take a hike, just because Armenians do not want to hear it.
In fact, truth may take a Hye, but never a hike.
Peace,
Ergun KIRLIKOVALI, Son Of Turkish Survivors From Both Maternal And Paternal Sides, www.Turkla.com
Armen Rastgouian
Apo, AE#170
Sunday Nov 23
Bud wrote:
Your country? LOL I am an ex-marine, and in all my days of serving my country, I not once seen an Armenian enlisted in the army, marines, navy, etc. I seen plenty of Caucasians, African-Americans and Hispanics Armenians are free loaders and cry babies. The Middle Eastern folks also claimed this was their country until they backed stabbed us. You people not only lie but you cheat too. Despicable people. Yo all should be rounded and given a one-way ticket to get out of this country. We were better off with none of you in here.
I am an Armenian American and a Corporal in the United States Marine Corps. My older brother is also a Marine. My cousin who recruited both my brother and I was a Sgt in the Marine Corps. My uncle who I looked up to as I child.. was prior Army. My 1stSgt of my Company Is half Armenian and half Italian. His grandparents were survivors of the Armenian Genocide, as were mine. I'm not here to talk much about the Armenian Genocide. I'm just here to say **** YOU Bud... I'm from Cali to ****.. hit me up on my email if you really want some beef.. F1ght_club818@yahoo.com
jda
San Francisco, CA#171
Monday Nov 24
Armen Rastgouian wrote:
I am an Armenian American and a Corporal in the United States Marine Corps. My older brother is also a Marine. My cousin who recruited both my brother and I was a Sgt in the Marine Corps. My uncle who I looked up to as I child.. was prior Army. My 1stSgt of my Company Is half Armenian and half Italian. His grandparents were survivors of the Armenian Genocide, as were mine. I'm not here to talk much about the Armenian Genocide. I'm just here to say **** YOU Bud... I'm from Cali to ****.. hit me up on my email if you really want some beef.. F1ght_club818@yahoo.com
Armen,
Thank you.
There are two books by Richard Demirjian you might want to read about Armenian Americans who served in WWII, Korea and Vietnam. In their own words. We even had Marine aviators in WWII, and one or two Army Generals to boot.
Today, there are at least two Marines from two of the several Armenian Churches in the Bay Area. I hear also that in 2003, one of the CWOs flying helos over Baghdad was a female Hye.
My great grandfather was in the US Army in 1899.
Here was my message to Bud, number 128.
Bud;
For starters, I suggest you find out who Victor "Transport" Maghakian and Harry Kizirian were before you pull out the Marine credentials. Both got the Navy Cross. Both were Marines. Transport was decribed as a one man Army with Carlson's Raiders at Makin Island, while Harry saved a stretcher party and four wounded Marines on Okinawa.
In WWII about 25,000 Armenian Americans served. Given that the community was very small, that was and still is a huge number. We had survivors of the Bataan Death March, among the paratroopers in Normandy, in air crews throughout the world, including friends of mine.
And while you're looking, try out Ernest der Vishian, winner of the CMH at Anzio.
By the way Armenians are about as Caucasian as possible - that's where they come from.
jda
San Francisco, CA#172
Monday Nov 24
Ergun,
I do not have sufficient time to wade through the ahistorical and emotional material you post. In the short space of a few comments linked to an old article, you have managed to conflate Ottoman Armenians with modern-day Armenians, and have thrown around defamatory language freely, calling Armenians traitors, terrorists, liars, Nazis or Nazi sympathizers and and even today said they are likenbable to the KKK. Given that almost anyone reading these comments has "chosen sides", and that very few people would find these comments anyway, what is the point?
Nonetheless, your comments regarding Gomidas Vardabet require a response, if only to deter you from repeating them in honor.
Your first point seems to be that the survival of the individual disproves Genocidal conduct or intent. The point is silly: high level Nazis often found ways to protect individual Jews, e.g. Goering's doctor, Kovacs. In fact, Goering, at the behest of his brother knowingly saved hundreds of Jews from death. Yet, he also knew full well of the slave labor, Jewish and Polish, being worked to death, not to mention the killings done at the gates of Auschwitz.
Your posting about Gomidas implies that Ottoman/CUP Genocidal intent can be negated because he was released from custody. Not quite. Gomidas' case is the exception which proves the rule.
Gomidas was a music-ethnographer. There was no colorable cause for him to be picked up on April 24, 1915 other than because he was a Priest of the Armenian Church. He was released eight days later not because he was "cleared" but rather because Talaat was concerned with strident appeals he received both from American Ambassador Morgenthau and from two Turkish intelelctuals. Remember that America was still neutral.
In Anatolia, about 5,000 Armenian Apostolic Priests and Protestant Ministers were killed, leaving literally only a handful surviving.
Gomidas went insane shortly after his release, and died in France in the 1930's. Orphaned as a child, he lived to see his culture and way of life utterly destroyed.
Few living through what he lived through could have retained their sanity.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#173
Monday Nov 24
Your arguments are based on more allegations that beg for justification. You are missing the point:
If Turks wanted to kill all Armenians why did they let one go? If Turks were afraid of foreign political pressure, why did they go ahead with the tereset (temporary resettlement?) What is wrong with defending your home when certain elements are trying to destroy your home from within, in total callusion with forced from outside? If Turks wanted to kill all Armenians, why would they save the ones in Istanbul? and Izmir? and Edirne? and Aleppo? and many other city centers (Urfa, Marasah, Anteb, and more?) Why would they exclude Catholic or Protestant Armenians? Why would they exclude many other Armenians like those dwelling in city centers, and clerks, etc.? And then why would Turks allow Armenians to use the trains where there were railroads (Konya, Adana, etc.?) Why would they allocate ox, horse, donkey carts where available? Why would they assign soldiers to protect them? Why would they allow American aid to help Arenians? Why would Turks invite an investigation of the charges by an international committee, other than those who started the tragedy in the first place, like Russia, Britain and France?
Armenian claims of genocide remind me of this joke I heard somewhere:
Question: How do you kill a fly?
Answer: Well, you tell the fly a great story and when it is not looking, you jump the fly. Quickly tie its hands and feet and turn it over belly up. Then you start tickling its stomach which causes the fly to laugh violently. Its stomach ruptues of laughters and it dies. Very very effective way to kill a fly, as you can see.
So, the Turks want to kill all the ARmenians and they figure "Hey, if we send only the ones in the East on a journey, give them mule-carts to carry their loads and soldiers to protect them and allow Western help to save them, maybe they will somehow die all together. Here is fail-proof plan!
When will you members of the AFATH community get real?
jda
San Francisco, CA#174
Monday Nov 24
Mr. Kirlikovali,
Most of us learned by high school debate that peppering the opponent with multiple scattershot rhetorical questions is a method of distracting the audience, rather than communicating the issues head-on. I didn't fall for it then, and won't now.
As the (unrefuted) facts concerning Dr. Kovacs imply, Genocide does not require the eradication of every single individual. In the case of Gomidas, as in the case of Kovacs et al, there may well have been a countervailing reason not to kill. I am sure you have seen the documents from the Ottoman Archive which in fact suggested that Armenians be allowed to reach and maintain the 5 per cent level in many areas from which they were otherwise deported and subsequently killed. That allowance does not negate Genocide.
A word about personal decency. There is nothing I have said in any post which derides the suffering of any person, Moslem or Christian, Turk, Kurd, Arab, Armenian, Greek, Jew, German, Pole or Assyrian. I take at face value and accept as true any person's statement of having family members persecuted, deported, exiled, raped or destroyed.
Like most Turks, Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians, Kurds, Jews, etc.I treat these statements and memories with respect.
You don't.
I would not make light of the death of anyone, or of the sincerity of their offspring with jokes, including, most pointedly, jokes about vermin. As it is proper to respect and mourn for the unnecessary and I am sure brutal deaths of Balkan Muslims, including your forebears, have the human decency not to make light of the feelings and experiences of Armenian dead and the feelings of their surviors by making jokes about insects.
Do I need to post the statements of Shakir, Nazim, Rosenberg and Goebbels for you to realize that each likened the victims to vermin, just as you have?
Hit n Run
Berlin, Germany#175
Monday Nov 24
Dear Jda
"Genocide does not require the eradication of every single individual." that is correct.
10 million or 20.000 it is all the same.
The key is the "intent" and the "motive". These are present in the international Law since the adoption of genocide law. In order for the 1915 incidents to be a genocide it must be PROVEN that Turks intended to kill the Armenians. Killing must the sole purpose not military requirements or anything else. Motive must be Ethnic hatred. Not any other political reason like taking land etc. That is the difference between any war crime and genocide.
All these points that Kirkliovali brings are not scattershot questions. These points demonstrate that 2 major indicators of genocide are missing. Intent and Motive.
You claim: "they were otherwise deported and subsequently killed"
I wish you have read the Near east report I have linked. It clearly reports that 1.3 million Ottoman Armenians are alive after the war. Obviously showing that deportees were not systematically killed. This report alone proves that there was no killing spree.
We come to an agreement on almost everything. Why such love for the word “Genocide”? Especially when it is so obvious it had nothing to do with it?
jda
San Francisco, CA#176
Tuesday Nov 25
Hit and Run,
Maybe we have reached the limit of our conversation. I am not an academic, and I cannot be said recently to have studied Genocide in general, or in the Armenian case, so I can not do it justice.
But you have asked me a fair question, which I will try to answer - why do I believe the Ottoman state committed Genocide against the Armenians and the Assyrians, and later, in 1923, why do I beliebve nationalist forces committed Genocide against the Greeks and Armenians of Smrna, and against the Pontic Greeks.
1. I utterly reject the idea that Genocide requires a finding of hatred, although hateful comments by CUP theoreticians against the Armenians are plentiful.
2. The definition requires the intentional destruction of all or some of the members of the racial, ethnic or religious group, or deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group." From stories I have heard, scholarship I have read, and the family stories of virtually every Armenian family I know, there is overwhelming evidence of these events, all of them.
3. If I were neutral, or a stranger to this issue, I would also be persuaded by the weight of scholarship and the unsuccessful efforts of Ankara to discourage research along certain lines. I do think the recent admission by Qaetert is also meaningful in these ways (1) his admission that Ottomanists treat the Genocide as a taboo, rather than a field to be researched; (2) the evidence he gave that the Turkish government discourages or forbids such scholarship and (3)his assertion in the review of the Bloxham boook that what the Armenians went through meets the technical definition. I also remember the effort by Heath Lowry to advise the Turkish Ambassador about how to deal with Dadrian.
4. A powerful, simple point to me is the fate of the males, age 18-60 conscripted into unarmed labor units of the Ottoman Army in 1914. I cannot give you a source on this, but I belive it is well accepted that few if any survived, and that the overwhelming majority were killed by their Officers and Moslem comrades in 1915, not on the battle field. There could be no doubt that they were killed by the government.
5. There are hundreds of well-accepted examples from family histories, written accounts by visitors, even German and Austrian soldiers, not to mention diplomatic accounts of Armenians being killed by Gendarmes and others in uniform, whhich is somewhat different from hhe accounts of some massacres of the 1890's, and 1909, in which civilians did the killings.
6. Dadrian and Akcam have collected documents showing that the forcible relocation during the war
of Moslem Kurds and Alewis were done with minimum casualties and ample supplies, even attending doctors.
7. When the Armenians were deported, their homes and properties were not escheated to the State for safe-keeping, but were used to pay for ttheir transportation, and were then given to Moslems, often displaced from the Balkans.(A scheme the Nazis used, also). The State did not intend for them to return.
8. I do not understand why Genocide committted by the Young Turk government, often over the objection of local Governors and officers, and freely admitted as massacres after the War by some Turkish leaders is more of a stain on collective national honor than wide-ranging, ad hoc massacres of women, elderly and children. Any people may allow or endure the offices of state to be perverted by criminals, as was clearly the case for Germany. Whether these events were centrally planned (Genocide) or ad hoc, they are a stain against our collective humanity, not just Turkish honor.
9. If true, allowing NER into Aleppo etc does not negate Genocide. Most death-marchers never made it that far. This, and other ameliorative action may merely have been good PR for a triumverate that recognized the Western powers might win the war and hang them for war crimes, which were being published in newspapers daily. I believe Churchill called for their trial and execution in 1915 specifically because of what had happened to the Armenians. Window-dressing, like the Thereseinstadt model concentration camp where children had a youth orchestra and were well fed - so long as the Red Cross was watching.
10. If we accept as true that the deaths in April and May, 1915 were ad hoc, or the result of brigandage, then where was the immediate, brutal and effective action by the central government to make it stop? There seems to be no serious doubt that Governors and military commanders killed and ordered the killings in most instances, and they would not have done these things if they had any doubt the central authority wanted them done.
11. Wartime necessity does not explain why Armenians in western Anatolia were deported, and died, or why the Assyrians sugffered the same fate. An animus against Christians does.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#178
Tuesday Nov 25
JDA,
Since you seem to know all there is to know about everything related to the turkish-Armenian conflcit during WWI, perhaps you would be kind enough to answer this simple, basic question (if you do not consider that to be peppering with multi-shots to confuse you;)
How many Muslims, mostly Turks, did Armenian kill during WWI?
How many?
jda
San Francisco, CA#179
Tuesday Nov 25
Mr. Kirlikovali,
I do not claim to know much, as my earlier post states. I am not a scholar or a serious student.
I am also not part of any political group, and I do not maintain any website. I have many Turkish and Kurdish friends, and would never insult them or their ancestors, or make light of their suffering, or the concerns of their families. I would not compare their deaths to the meaningless deaths of flies, as you did. For a man of supposed honor, you give affront with impunity.
I explained to the other poster Hit and Run, who seems to be able to discuss the issue without name-calling and with a decent amount of respect, my lay reasons for believing there was a Genocide. I answered his question, which he has every right to pose. I have also discussed Moslem and Turkish deaths, however and wherever they occurred with respect.
As for you, I asked you questions last week which you have not responded to:
"Ergun, do you concede that any Turkish government officials, soldiers, militia, gendarmes, special action units, released prisoners or governors of any kind murdered or ordered the murder of any Armenians, Assyrians or Greeks between 1915 and 1923, and if you do, how many were killed?
Do you ever stop, as many Turks from Turkey living there and abroad do, to extend condolensces to the memory of the Christians of Anatolia, whether you think they were murdered by state action or were merely the unlucky victims of subpar logistical practices?"
Eventhough you can't respond to my earlier questions, I will answer yours.
On the issue of Moslems and Turks killed by Armenians, the question obviously requires analysis into categories before we discuss its relevance to the issue of whether a Genocide of the Armenians occurred. I would urge you to read the Bloxham book and the Qaetert article if only to see the basis for their beliefs, which are more comprehensive than our lay opinions.
When you ask about Moslems or Turks killed by Armenians, do you mean Ottoman Armenians - or do you mean by some conflation of Armenians serving with the overall Russian Army? This latter group came from the Caucasus and the Crimea, primarily, and were part of a larger force of Russians and other Slavs. Not more than a few hundred Ottoman Armenians are thought to have joined, and almost all who joined did so after April 24, 1915.
I believe Akcam calculates the former as being well under 10,000, but let us agree that irrespective of number, any noncombatant killed is a murder, and that all victims have equal dignity before God. I do not diminish anything, about Turkish or Moslem deaths, but it is hard to imagine that there were huge numbers of Ottoman Armenian males available to conduct such operatios, as all were subject to conscription.
jda
San Francisco, CA#180
Tuesday Nov 25
Let us suppose that at Van, and in several other locations Ottoman male Armenian subjects murdered civilians. Let us even suppose that these murders occurred before April 24, 1915 so that they might not be classified as revenge killings, of a kind and character you use to justify or explain what you think are non-Genocidal murders of Armenians.
I do not see how this explains that the Ottoman government did not commit Genocide. Uprisings and murders may explain deportation, especially of males from the relevant, but they do not explain depotations throughout Anatolia, as the German commander on scene reported to his government. They do not explain drownings of Armenian civilians in the Black sEA. Neither does it explain the near-annihalation of Assyrians, whom nobody ever accused of anything.
The Genocide victim group may count among its numbers some who are armed,and even some who murder. In Darfur, for example, the government seeks to justify its actions against the civilians by referencing hit and run attacks by rebels, who belong to the victim group. Even if true, that hardly destroys the case that the government has committed Genocide directly and through state sanctioned irregular formations, including the Gonjaweeds.
Here is a true story told by my cousin, now in his 70's.
He was from Tabriz, and spoke Turkish, as well as Farsi and Armenian. He held an Iranian passport, and had travelled through Anatolia en route to Istanbul, whence he would leave for America. The time of this incident occurred in the mid 1960's.
An elderly man sat next to him, as they gazed out the window near Diyarbekir. The man identified himself as a retired Turkish officer who had been posted in the South-East during WW1. Making the universal index finger across the throat gesture, he then verbally explained to my cousin with a smile that his unit had killed all of the Armenians in the area. Evidence suitable for a court? No. Its aged hearsay. A family story that scares me to this day? Yes.
jda
San Francisco, CA#181
Tuesday Nov 25
Hit and Run,
One point I forgot to mention.
I agree wholeheartedly that affirming or questioning the Genocide is not in and of itself "hate speech". There are elements on both sides who try to scare and intimidate those with whom they disagree. There is no place in legitimate
conversation for that.
You complained of racist and hateful things you have read posted by those saying they are Armenians. Maybe you spend more time looking at what Armenians say, as I used to look at what Turks and Azeris say online.
My experience was the same - there was a lot of violent and racist, sexist fantasy talk, common among teems and very young men. iT is wrong and stupid, no matter who writes it. It has more to do with testosterone surplus than ethnicity.
I think one of the dumbest things some Armenian-Americans, who usually do not know any Turks, do is confront and insult hapless Turkish immigrants who are minding their own business, with accusations about the fate of their grandparents. This does not win us any friends. It may win us lifetime enemies.
I think Turks and Armenians can respectfully exchange views and avoid emotional excess, disagreeing about the nature and cause of what happened. When either side starts calling the other side's ancestors wholesale murderers or traitors, conversation becoimes impossible, unless it is limited to where the best yalanci can be found.
jda
San Francisco, CA#182
Tuesday Nov 25
Mr. Kirlikovali:
Can you agree with any of these statements:
1. The issue of whether the Ottomans committed Genocide should be regarded as an open question, yet to be resolved.
2. No one disputes the extent of Armenian suffering at the hands of the Ottoman Turks during the World War I. With little or no notice, the Ottoman government forced Armenian men, women, and children to leave their historic communities; during the subsequent harrowing trek over mountains and through deserts, large numbers of them died of starvation and disease, or were murdered.
3. In 1915-1916, at least 40 per cent of the Ottoman Armenians were starved, succumbed to illness, or were murdered.
4.The Turkish government regularly threatens retaliation against anyone calling into question its own version of events. The overzealous Turkish prosecutors have brought dozens of cases against novelists, publishers, scholars and journalists. Many of these cases have been dismissed and never reached the trial stage. But the effect of these prosecutions nevertheless is undoubtedly to discourage and put a chill on an open and unbiased discussion of Armenian question in Turkey today.
5. Turkish allegations of wholesale disloyalty, treason and revolt by the Ottoman Armenians, the Canadian researcher Gwynne Dyer has once concluded appropriately "wholly true as far as Armenian sentiment went, only partly true in terms of overt acts, and totally insufficient as a justification for what was done to the Armenians."
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#183
Tuesday Nov 25
“… On the issue of Moslems and Turks killed by Armenians, the question obviously requires analysis into categories before we discuss its relevance to the issue of whether a Genocide of the Armenians occurred…”
Can I read this to mean :“Look, I will give you a number but I want to make sure that my genocide claim is not hurt by my answer?”
…
“… When you ask about Moslems or Turks killed by Armenians, do you mean Ottoman Armenians - or do you mean by some conflation of Armenians serving with the overall Russian Army? This latter group came from the Caucasus and the Crimea, primarily, and were part of a larger force of Russians and other Slavs…”
I mean all Armenians, Ottoman-Armenians and Russian-Armenians combined.
…
“… Not more than a few hundred Ottoman Armenians are thought to have joined, and almost all who joined did so after April 24, 1915…”
You are so kind with your people!
Noubar pasha, the head of Armenian delegation to Paris Peace conference mentions a “150,000 men Armenian army” in his letter published in London Times (Jan 1919). This is corroborated by the first Armenian prime minister Katchaznouni in his Manifesto (1923.) Finally, the study by the famous American Prof. Dewey of Columbia Univ, New York, also verifies this. So how quickly 150,000 is reduced to “not more than a few hundred”. Wow!
Just like the magic explosion of 200,000 dead by March 1919 (Paris Conference) to 600,00 dead by May 1919 (deceptive posters by Armenians) to one million dead in 1950s (Armenian media) to 2 million dead in 1970s (Armenian media) to 2.5 to 3 million dead in 1990s to finally 1.5 million dead nowadays, while some still quote more than a million dead. If this is not mocking the silent memory of the dead, I don’t know what is. Anyway, back to numbers.
“…I believe Akcam calculates the former as being well under 10,000…”
Akcam is a paid Armenian agent. His salary was paid by the Cafesjian Foundation and the notoriously anti-Turkish Zoryan Institute until I unearthed it with a letter to the president of the Univ. of Minnesota last year (see: www.turkla.com ) After this expose, the AFATH lobby (Armenian Falsifier and Turks Haters) quickly whisked him to the safety of another university (Clark U in Boston.)
I have to now find out how much of the Akcam salary is met directly or indirectly by Armenian funds (via donation to the university or chair or a combination.) The point is, Akcam is a mouth piece hired to regurgitate Dadrian propaganda. Dadrian concocts the complicity theories promoting genocide claims and beefs it up with some pseudo-scholarly justification, and Akcam gives it his stamp, so that the whole deception can be promoted as “A Turkish scholar agreeing with Armenian allegations of genocide.” Pass.
…
“…but let us agree that irrespective of number, any noncombatant killed is a murder, and that all victims have equal dignity before God…”
How come you don’t know the Turkish suffering and death toll then? What kind of respect is that for the dead?
…
“…I do not diminish anything, about Turkish or Moslem deaths, but it is hard to imagine that there were huge numbers of Ottoman Armenian males available to conduct such operations, as all were subject to conscription…”
You do diminish Turkish dead by volunteering that the numbers could not be huge. How do you know they were not huge? How do you know if the Turkish losses were not even bigger than the Armenians? Armenian males were mostly in those rebel Armenian armies that Noubar mentions so proudly in his letters, 150,000 strong, save a few in the Ottoman armies who could mostly no longer be trusted.
“… Let us suppose that at Van, and in several other locations Ottoman male Armenian subjects murdered civilians…”
Suppose? After annihilating the Muslim communities in Van, you still suppose? And you mention respect for the dead! This is the most racist affront to Muslim dead I have ever read anywhere…
…
“… Let us even suppose that these murders occurred before April 24, 1915 so that they might not be classified as revenge killings, of a kind and character you use to justify or explain what you think are non-Genocidal murders of Armenians…”
Suppose again? Why suppose? Don’t you know your facts? Please read “VAN Rebellion” by Justin McCarthy for gruesome details and see how cold-blooded killers the Armenian revolutionaries really were.
Armenians started arming against the Ottomans since well before the war. We are talking since 1882, sped up drastically after the proclamation of 1909 Second Mesrutiyet, peaking in 1914. Van was cleansed of its Muslims in February-April period in 1915 which was the last straw that broke the camel’s back causing the Tereset (temporary resettlement) resolution to pass the Ottoman Parliament (May 30 1915.)
…
I do not see how this explains that the Ottoman government did not commit Genocide.
Genocide cannot be applied to cases of war where two combatant sides kill each other. Genocide is a one sided affair where there is a perpetrator and a victim; Turkish-Armenian conflict was a brutal civil war where each side killed or was victimized by the other at the same era and same area.
“…Uprisings and murders may explain deportation, especially of males from the relevant, but they do not explain deportations throughout Anatolia, as the German commander on scene reported to his government…”
Deportation implies sending outside the country. Armenians were relocated to another part of the same country. That is why the correct term is Tereset (temporary resettlement.) Armenians were not subjected to Tereset as a whole; Armenians of Istanbul, the capital, Izmir, Edirne, Aleppo, and many other places were not moved because they were not seen as threat to the survival of the Ottoman Empire.
Also, Catholic and Protestant Armenians were excluded from the Tereset. There were many other exclusions to the Tereset order. Those who lived in the city centers; those who worked for the government; and many others. The reason for teresetting communities were becaue the Armenian terrorists and murderers would use the Armenian women and children as human shields against the Turkish home security forces after the Armenians committed their heinous crimes and sabotages. It was impossible to weed out good from bad; innocent from guilty.
The Ottoman Empire was under brutal attacks and invasions from all corners: Dardanelles, Caucasus, the Middle East… Armenians thought this was the time to finish the job of the Turks by backstabbing them. Their treason backfired, because they forgot to factor in the legendary martial arts skills of the Turk, as did do many others. They all thought Turk was finished. Armenians were dizzied with dreams of carving the Turkish cake to create a greater Armenia.
…
“… They do not explain drownings of Armenian civilians in the Black Sea...”
These are Armenian hearsay, not proven to the satisfaction of a competent tribunal. On the contrary, Turks have exact same stories about Turks being loaded to small boats and being drowned by the Armenian revolutionaries in Lake Van in the Spring of 1915. Turks have the Ottoman State archives, that can easily be authenticated, to prove ethnic cleansing of Turkish population of Van at the hands of Armenians.
“… Neither does it explain the near-annihilation of Assyrians, whom nobody ever accused of anything…”
This is a recent invention of the AFATH lobby, just like the pseudo scholars who are dubbed genocide scholars (most of them are not even historians but do not shy away from passing
damning wholesale judgments on complex events in history.) A Swedish officer did travel from Konya to Bagdat during the height of the Tereset and did not see any corpses floating on the river Euphrates. His account was published in a Swedish newspaper later on (see my column at www.turkla.com )
…
“… An elderly man sat next to him, as they gazed out the window near Diyarbekir. The man identified himself as a retired Turkish officer who had been posted in the South-East during WW1. Making the universal index finger across the throat gesture, he then verbally explained to my cousin with a smile that his unit had killed all of the Armenians in the area. Evidence suitable for a court? No. Its aged hearsay. A family story that scares me to this day? Yes...”
Yep, hearsay… That is why Armenians never really dared take Turkey to international court of justice to have their genocide charges put to test. They know that their stories are mostly hearsay and forgeries. Most don’t even know the Turkish suffering or losses and do not care (and then they talk about respect for the silent memory of dead. They get offended by a fly killing joke, a metaphor, but cannot figure out why Turks are upset that their dead are ignored, dismissed , or belittled. So much for AFATH morals…“Selective morality” at its most fanatic…)
We have many stories about Armenian bandids bayoneting pregnant Turkish villagers and burning Turkish villagers after packing them into mosques… We have times, dates, names, mass graves, government reports, corroborating forensic evidence for those… We would love to share them with the world. Then they will see those “poor, starving Armenians” were really starving for Turkish blood… Armenians use hearsay, forgeries, propaganda, politics, public relations… Turks use facts, figures, documents, archives, proofs…
…
After all this, you still did not answer my question, though (Why am I not surprised?)
How many Muslims, mostly Turks, did Armenians kill during WWI?
Peace,
Ergun KIRLIKOVALI
Son Of Turkish Survivors From Both Maternal And Paternal Sides
www.Turkla.com
jda
San Francisco, CA#188
Tuesday Nov 25
Mr. Kirlikovali,
Perhaps you are just not comfortable with simple analyis of cause and effect. You should be, given your professed background in science. Polymer science, right?
When I or anyone says "Let us suppose" it does not mean an event did or did not happen. it means instead let us assume for the sake of argument that x is true. In that way, we see if the hypothesized event logically did or did not cause a debated consequence or condition, without being bogged down in a discussion of the validity of the hypothesis or predicate fact. Since we will never agree on a lot of these hypotheses, it makes sense to assume them true for the sake of analysis to see where they take us.
In your case, I said, let us hypothesize or "suppose" that Armenians killed Ottoman Moslem civilians before April 24, 1915 as you state. I argued that if true, this might justify deportation (not murder) of Armenian males from the affected areas, not the deportation and murder of Armenians and Assyrians from distant locations throughout Anatolia. And it does not much explain the intentional murder of noncombatants.
It also seems that in your years in our happy land, you have become a bit trigger happy with use of the word "racist." I know, we in America are a bit fast to reduce everything to race, so its probably a bad habit we've passed on to you. But its really a bad habit. Trying to label with ad hominem atttacks everyone who disagrees with you really just makes you look like the type of person Americans naturally squirm to get away from.
Calm down, have some nice tea, and you will see that my trying to indulge your claims to see how far they go is not an insult to anyone. I think we can both leave our Grandparents and extended families out of this one. By the way, if memory serves, your family comes fromthe Balkans, so I assume you are not blaming the Armenians for their misfortunes.
In the meantime, maybe you can answer my older questions to you.
just to remind you Ergun,
1. do you concede that any Turkish government officials, soldiers, militia, gendarmes, special action units, released prisoners or governors of any kind murdered or ordered the murder of any Armenians, Assyrians or Greeks between 1915 and 1923, and if you do, how many were killed?
2. Do you ever stop, as many Turks from Turkey living there and abroad do, to extend condolensces to the memory of the Christians of Anatolia, whether you think they were murdered by state action or were merely the unlucky victims of subpar logistical practices?"
I will address your concerns when you answer mine.
A new one:
3. Are you saying that the claim of Assyrian Genocide is a fabrication by Armenians?
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#191
Tuesday Nov 25
THE IGNORED ARMENIAN CRIMES AND DISMISSED TURKISH LOSSESS DURING WWI
(PART 1 OF 4)
Your questions/comments should be reworded as follows to shed their inherent bias:
“1. The issue of whether the Ottomans committed Genocide should be regarded as an open question, yet to be resolved.� is a biased statement. The correct statement is:
1. The characterization of the Turkish-Armenian conflict during WWI should be regarded as an open question, yet to be resolved.
My comment/answer: Yes, I agree.
“2. No one disputes the extent of Armenian suffering at the hands of the Ottoman Turks during the World War I.�
Wrong. We disagree on the numbers, dates, times, locations, Turkish suffering and losses incurred at the hands of Armenians, and Armenian complicity and war crimes. When all told, you can see that it is not a one way killing as promoted widely, but a two way war, a civil war within a world war.
“…With little or no notice, the Ottoman government forced Armenian men, women, and children to leave their historic communities;
Wrong. When one commits a heinous crime, home security forces do not give the perpetrators (and those who aid and abet them, willingly or unwillingly) time to plan their escape. The Ottoman Government forced not all Armenians, but only those who were involved in the terrorism, rebellions, and/or treason. Women and children were used as human shield by the Armenian revolutionaries during the day after the latter committed their heinous crimes during the night. Home security forces could not distinguish between the guilty and innocent parties and trust few of them in a given territory.
It was not a wholesale tereset, but a case-by-case tereset. There is an abundance of Ottoman State archives which corroborate the wartime home security measure nature of the tereset. If the Armenians were loyal citizens, they would not have to be moved. In America, there is an expression for this:“If you cannot do the time, do not commit the crime.�
(PART 2 OF 4)
“…during the subsequent harrowing trek over mountains and through deserts, large numbers of them died of starvation and disease, or were murdered..”
After every event, police reports were filed with the Ottoman state. Turkish Historical Society scanned those archives with a fine tooth comb to compile lists broken down according to causes, with names, dates, times, and more.
According to these intensive studies, some 8,700 ottoman Armenians were killed due to feuds, raids, and other war crimes; about 45,000 perished due to hunger, epidemics, and other elements, bringing the total to 54,000. This number is corroborated by the March 29, 1919 report by the sub-commission in Paris Peace Conference which came up with a term “more than 200,000” which was already exaggerated, because the reporter talked to the Armenian patriarchate and other parties with vested interests, but not to the Ottoman Government.
This number is “magically” pumped up to “600,000” only two months later in May 1919 by Armenian printers of posters soliciting aid for Armenians.(They must have figured: who is going to know?) Then this number was inflated to 1 million (1950s), 2 million (1970s), and even 2.5 million and 3 million (1990s). Armenian claims are the only case in the history of history where the “dead multiply”.
“3. In 1915-1916, at least 40 per cent of the Ottoman Armenians were starved, succumbed to illness, or were murdered…”
Wrong. Total of Armenians moved by tereset are about 700,000. We know 54,000 perished and about 500,000 arrived at the destinations. The difference can be accounted for by those who made their ways one way or another to surrounding countries with or without the help of the Allies, the engineers of Turkish-Armenian polarization in the first place.
The Armenians of Istanbul, Izmir, Edirne and other places in the West as well as Aleppo and other places in the south were not moved. Total population of Armenians were 1.295 million according to tax records. This would put the Armenians perished due to tereset at at 4.17 %. Like all other Armenian numbers, this number got inflated by tenfold, I see.(Why am I not surprised?)
(PART 3 OF 4)
“4.The Turkish government regularly threatens retaliation against anyone calling into question its own version of events…”
This is a myth. Do you know how many books and articles are published in Turkey by the AFATH community’s Turkish counterparts like Akcam, Berktay, and others? It is in the hundreds.
They are all out there, freely exercising their distortions. By contrast, how many anti-genocide articles or books are published in Armenian’s history? None! Talk about hypocricy.
“… The overzealous Turkish prosecutors have brought dozens of cases against novelists, publishers, scholars and journalists. Many of these cases have been dismissed and never reached the trial stage…”
You are talking about article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code which used to allow anyone bring a suit against anyone else if s/he feels his/her Turkishness was insulted. This law, by the way exists in all European countries, including France and England.
The Turkish version was perhaps too free and it may have been abused by some over sensitive people. But this law was re-written last year in the Turkish Patliament and there is not a single case in the courts on account of 301.
“… But the effect of these prosecutions nevertheless is undoubtedly to discourage and put a chill on an open and unbiased discussion of Armenian question in Turkey today…”
Wrong again. I just gave you the example of hundreds of books and articles being published in Turkey every year. How many anti-genocide articles and books were published in Armenia in its entire life (17 years?) None! How came you are still able to talk? Lecturing people from your high horse? Puh-leaze!...
(PART 4 OF 4)
“ 5. Turkish allegations of wholesale disloyalty, treason and revolt by the Ottoman Armenians, the Canadian researcher Gwynne Dyer has once concluded appropriately "wholly true as far as Armenian sentiment went, only partly true in terms of overt acts, and totally insufficient as a justification for what was done to the Armenians."
That’s one opinion. Here is another:
Professor John Dewey of Columbia University, one of America's quintessential thinkers and philosophers and a rare American who scratched beneath the omnipresent anti-Turkish propaganda, wrote this in his essay “The Turkish Tragedy”, published in The New Republic, 12 November 1928:
“… Few Americans who mourn, and justly, the miseries of the Armenians, are aware that till the rise of nationalistic ambitions, beginning with the (eighteen)seventies, the Armenians were the favored portion of the population of Turkey, or that in the Great War, they traitorously turned Turkish cities over to the Russian invader; that they boasted of having raised an army of one hundred and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at least a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population.
I do not mention these things by way of appraising or extenuating blame because the story of provocations and reprisals is a futile as it is endless; but it indicates what happened in the past to both Armenian and Turkish populations when the minority element was taken under the protecting care of a foreign Christian power, and what will recur if the Armenians should be organized into a buffer state.
Nor is it likely to be better in "little Armenia", if the Armenians of Latin Catholic persuasion are deposited between the Turks to the north and Syria to the south, which is, according to newspaper reports, to be the French policy in connection with their mandated territory…”
...
Turks and Armenians lived in peaceful co-habitation for a thousand years until the late 19th and early 20th centuries when the Armenians resorted to propaganda, agitation, terrorism, rebellions, and treason (in that order) between 1877 and 1915. Many Turks (I will give you the number later, after reading about your take on the Turkish suffering and losses) met their tragic end at the hands of Armenian nationalists during 1914-1921 who used your grandparents as human shields for their dastardly crimes. Turks were defending their home, like any citizen anywhere would do.
THE IGNORED TURKISH SUFFERING AT THE HANDS OF ARMENIANS
Here are my answers to your questions:
1. do you concede that any Turkish government officials… murdered or ordered the murder of any Armenians, Assyrians or Greeks between 1915 and 1923, and if you do, how many were killed?
The answer to Armenians was given in my previous answer.
Assyrian argument is a new one invented by the AFATH community to establish “credibility by extension”.
Greek situation would take me two days to answer here. Let’s just say that Greek story is safely encapsulated in my last name.(see www.turkla.com )
Turkish last names are honest story tellers. Check them out, you will be surprised do discover how clever a Turkish custom that is. That’s why Armenian distorutions keep hitting the wall of Turkish last names… No one can change the stories there… They are sealed for life there… In fact, for generations… No politician, AFATH or not, can throw a spin on them…
2. Do you ever stop, as many Turks from Turkey living there and abroad do, to extend condolences to the memory of the Christians of Anatolia, whether you think they were murdered by state action or were merely the unlucky victims of subpar logistical practices?"
Yes, all the time, but only to those who do not lie about Turkish suffering at the hands of the Christians of Anatolia.
Ergun KIRLIKOVALI
Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal & Maternal Sides
www.turkla.com
jda
San Francisco, CA#196
Tuesday Nov 25
In answer to H and R:
"How are we going to overcome that? If Turkey and Armenia starts normal relations someday, what are you going to do with all that racist Tashnag youth?"
1. Relations between the two states are not effected much by what some youth say in Beirut or Glendale, or in Trabzon for that matter. The most ardent nationalists are usually in exile, or in an economic backwater e.g. the IRA members in Boston who opposed the Irish peace process. They were overwhelmed and outvoted by the need of the Brits and the Irish to make peace.
I think these things are driven by economic necessity which makes people find peace. Indeed, the spark which got Gul to Yerevan was probably the Turkish need to help Eastern Anatolia and get Nabucco built, and the Armenian Republic's realization that transhipment through Georgia was perilous after the Rusian invasion.
2. "If in the 2.post someone comes out and says "you barbarian Turkish dogs should go back to your caves in Asia". You won´t be able to keep calm. This happens all the time so when we get into a discussion with an Armenian we expect only the worst.“learned helplessness” in terms of conducting a civil discussion.
No doubt about it, there is a racial feeling some (not most) American and French Armenians have about Turks. Until they meet them. That is why we should meet. These claims that Turks are this and that go back to the time of Marco Polo at least. Odd thing is, that Armenians from Istanbul have no such feelings, plus Europeans have all the "orientalist" prejudice against all of us. The istanbul Armenians have the opposite complaint: that they are seen in a racist way, and especially that white Turks make fun orf them for being dark, dumb and hairy.
3. "Rejecting the Genocide thesis has nothing to do with a hate speech or Racism!" Agreed in theory, but when apologists treat Armenians then and now with what sounds like racist contempt,(traitors, killers, liars, KKK, Nazis) and without respect or sympathy (Mr K, for example) you can see how Armenians feel abouit that part of it.
4. "I find it incomprehensible that Armenians are constantly lobbying to people who actually don’t give a s..t to their tragedy".
Just as I question all the crazy ways the Turkish government uses to denounce the Genocide and the scholars who think it occurred, so too do I question the usefulness of Genocide recognition. Here is why I think Armenians do it;
First, just as a man will pursue arrest and prosecution of a wrongdoer where he thinks there is injustice, there is truly an ache for the righting of a wrong. Those who were guilty are dead, so I think we want recognition to give us a sense of justice and closure. A large part of this desire comes from revulsion against the Turkish state's efforts to tell us as Americans what we can and cannot say. I think part of it is to have the world condemn the Turkish state's efforts, since the 1960's, to belittle the claim of Genocide.
2. If the Turkish state were more subtle, if it showed some regret, and was less active, I think fewer people would know the phrase "Armenian Genocide". I also think fewer Armenians would push the issue. Some humanity goes a long way.
Mr. Kirlikovali,
I am genuinely surprised at you.
In my post 182 I put five unattributed statements to you, to see if you agreed with them. In your posts 191-194 you disagreed with each as phrased.
Yet, these statements are all from Guenter Lewy's 2007 speech at Harvard. I bet that you have otherwise quoted him with approval, and pointed out what a great and noted historian he is, as he is a bona fide Genocide denier. I don't fault him for that here - I am just pointing it out.
I think even Talaat's favorite aunt would admit that more than 9,000 Armenians were murdered. Should I assume you want to pin it on the Kurds, the Alewis and the Circassians? Maybe there were a few Greeks involved too? I think you even say that some of this number died in feuds. Like over a parking space or a bad koofta? Maybe you are saying the Armenains killed each other.
I gave you the rope, you hung yourself with it.
Voila!
As I suspected, you think Lewy is a great historian, except of course when you unwittingly disagree with what he actually says. Here's what you said in 2005 to the Middle East Quarterly in a gushing lettter:
"I must express my delight at reading Guenter Lewy's balanced treatment of the Turkish-Armenian conflict ("Revisiting the Armenian Genocide," Fall 2005) in the pages of the Middle East Quarterly. I have the utmost admiration and respect for the honesty and truthfulness displayed in the article."
So, did he lose his touch between 2005 and 2007, or do you think Armenian agents have incriminating pictures of him with a baklava?
Ergun,
Cat got your keyboard?
S E C R E T M E M O
From Ergun K. to Hahn
As I have tried patiently to explain to you, one of the first orders of business we expect from you on election to Congress, is to do something about the ongoing Turkey crisis.
The one that comes every November, I mean.
For centuries, the Americans have enagaged in the wanton slaughter of poultry they insist on calling "Turkeys", to mock the magnificence of the Ottoman Empire and all Turks.
We have unquestionable documentary proof from the immaculate and perfect Ottoman Archives that this was all the brainchild of a 16th Century nobleman from Wales, who in fact, I am sorry to say, was, wait for it.....Armenian. Thus,. the supposed national day of thanks in the US is really a vicious stab in the back engineered, once again, by the all powerful Armenian Diaspora.
We want federal legislation renaming the birds "helpless victims of the Armenian Diaspora" so that every time my wife and I go to Whole Foods, we will hear the checkers there say that lovely phrase.
Anything less would be racist.
I am sure you agree. After all, Koreans are actually Turks from the Eastern provinces.
Ergun,
Yesterday your own posts established that you have taken stands which even Denialists do not support i.e. your violent, if disorganized disagreements with Lewy.
You even said, as I understand you, that the dead Armenians, including the women and children, had it coming. Before that you wrote about how the deaths of Armenians is likenable to the humorous death of vermin - flies in fact. And to round it all off, you think the Armenians invented the Assyrian Genocide.
Is this what Turks in America think, or are you off by yourself?
Today we establish through your posts for our dwindling audience that you have insulted at least one person, a reporter, on account of his race. And he's not Armenian.
Although you are quick to call people racist for merely not agreeing with you, I have read your ethnic insults against the Mexican-American reporter you repeatedly called "Speedy Gonzalez" with further references to how he should not do things as they are done in Tijuana. You have every right to defend yourself against the reporter's remarks, but his race is not relevant. Except for insults. Here is what you wrote:
"Well, hold just one minute, Speedy Gonzalez?
*****
This is not Tijuana, Amigo, this is America. We investigate and discuss things first before we attack someone.
Do you know the difference between you and the Los Angeles Times, Speedy?
******
You, on the other hand, Speedy, jumped on my throat like hungry wolf on a lamb.
Slow down a bit, Speedy. There is plenty of fighting to go around, why do you pick one so readily, so unjustifiably, and so passionately? Are your sales and ratings really that low? Is this your gimmick, Speedy?
****
Your best friend and buddy,
Ergun Kirlikovali"
I know plenty of Turks. They are no more racists than anyone else. And, as you claim to be the victim of Anti-Turkish bias and acts, can you see that what you wrote is insulting?
The next time you want to play the victim or race card to some third party,Ihope they will be armed with your posts. If you want to claim to be the victim of racism, its generally a best practice not to insult people on account of their race.
busted
Los Angeles, CA#203
Wednesday Nov 26
Ergun Kirlikovali is a racist moron who has nothing better to do than to smell an Armenian conspiracy whenever anyone mentions the Armenian genocide but couldn't argue himself out of a paper bag. Here's the link jda above references to:
http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/electio...
mitzvah
Simi Valley, CA#204
Wednesday Nov 26
I am appalled by the heartlessness of what I read here.
Kirkikovali, if the Presidents of Turkey and Armenia can work for peace, who are you to keep old wounds open? You can make every point you want to
ma9139ke without profaning the dead.
Start using your Head, you are no representative of Turks.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#205
Wednesday Nov 26
ARMENIA MUST STOP ITS MILITARY AGGRESSION AND SMEAR CAMPAIGNS PRIOR TO ANY ATTEMPTS AT RECONCILIATION WITH ITS NEIGHBORS (Part 1 of 3)
As long as those…
--baseless Armenian claims of genocide are maliciously continued to be presented to the world as incontrovertible facts by the “A.F.A.T.H. camp”; [1]
--bogus allegations of genocide misleadingly compared to court-tested-and-proven fact of Jewish Holocaust; [2]
--countless armed Armenian revolts, acts of treason and sheer terrorism from 1882 to 1915 and beyond, causing heretofore untold Turkish suffering and losses, are shamefully ignored;
--territorial demands by the Armenian nationalists before WWI and the Republic of Armenia after 1991 are casually dismissed;
and…
--Tereset order of 1915 is arrogantly misrepresented as one sided genocide; [3]
--current Armenian aggression and brutal military occupation in Karabagh and Western Azerbaijan are not terminated;
--about a million exiled Azeris, who are having to spend their 16th scorching summer in their flimsy tents with little food or medicine in those “forgotten refugee camps”, are not allowed to return to their homes which they were forced by Armenian thugs to leave at gunpoint ;
I don’t see how any…
--Turk or Azeri can achieve reconciliation;
--Turkish or Azeri political party or government can continue to enjoy public support at home, even if they achieve some kind of bizarre reconciliation with an antagonistic, belligerent, hateful, corrupt, and terrorist Armenia.
…
I have lived in Southern California long enough to see how incredibly hateful most Diaspora Armenians truly are.
These are the people who have never met a Turk in their lives but quite ready to kill one on sight.
These are the people who see nothing wrong in teaching, for mere candy money, their children as young as 7 years old, hate-filled, gory, vengeance poems demonizing Turks.
These are the people who then see no shame in passing the hat for donations in Armenian churches for the legal defense of those young Armenians after the latter have been apprehended for their terrorist acts.
These are the people who treat Armenian assassins like heroes, while the latter arrogantly flash “V” signs to TV-cameras wearing ugly grins on their murderous faces.
These are the people who go from candy-money-for-hate-poems to legal-defense-money-for-terror ists quite seamlessly, feeling no remorse, perhaps even a strange sense of pride, achievement, and victory.
The political, military, and religious leaders in Armenia today seem to be similarly “endowed” with same warped sense of justice, pride, and victory, although there are indications that most ordinary people in Armenia harbor no such deep-rooted animosity toward Turks or Azeris, Turkey or Azerbaijan ( perhaps because Armenia's citizens are more worried about where their next meal is going to come from.)
And some amongst us are going to negotiate peace with these hate merchants?
What exactly do they hope to achieve?
Can Israel negotiate with Hamas?
Can the U.S. negotiate with El Qaeda?
(Part 2 of 3)
I have witnessed how Armenian terrorism, intimidation, and sheer political pressure—not a verdict by a competent tribunal or some new information unearthed by non-partisan historians—forced a change in attitudes in editorial boards of major newspapers, from the good old days of referring correctly to “alleged” genocide to nowadays’ timid, self-serving, dishonest, and racist conclusion of one way genocide. Yes, just like that!(Talk about journalistic objectivity in America.)
I noted how the same was repeated in international scene, by nagging Armenian pressure—not by historical facts—causing political resolutions to be passed here and there, based on a racist and dishonest version of history spread by the AFATH community.( I intend to expose these shenanigans on a state-by-state basis to show how the Armenian lobbyists are behind every political resolution accepting at face value the Armenian charges of genocide.)
…
Those who might be inclined to think that Turkey or Azerbaijan might succumb to Armenian-triggered foreign pressure if enough political resolutions are passed, need to refresh their knowledge of history, and perhaps, geography, too. While at it, they might even wish to take a look at the emerging global energy traffic.
And after that, perhaps kindly observe the transportation revolution gradually taking shape by the completion of the Baku-Tbilisi-Kars railway (wisely skirting the belligerent Armenia) and Marmaray,(underwater rail-tube passage near Istanbul), thus connecting London to Shanghai, Europe to China, Atlantic to Pacific, via rail over the neo-Silk Route. Future is extremely bright in that part of the world, not even darkened by the evil deeds of the blood-thirsty Armenia.
(Part 3 of 3)
If the Armenians (in Diaspora or Armenia) truly wish to achieve even a remote sense of reconciliation with its neighbors, then they need to attend an “attitude re-adjustment course”.
Armenians must help themselves first by cleansing their own hearts, minds, and souls of hatred for all things Turkish. Then they should stop thinking that they are the only smart people on earth, all others, idiots. Finally, they should stop that damn whining, nagging, begging, screaming, demanding, crying, scheming, more begging, manipulating, lying, slandering, demonizing,…(Did I say begging?)
Only then, reconcilition talks can start. And until then, I would say to my Armenian friends who seem so proud of Armenian terrorism:“Get a life!”
…
Frustrated by the persistently biased coverage of the Turkish-Armenian civil war during WWI and the ensuing censorship of Turkish views in American media, I have coined a new term back in 2003—my humble gift to the English language and a thoughtful and long overdue supplement to Rafael Lemkin’s definition of genocide:“ethocide”.
A brief definition of ethocide is “extermination of ethics by systematic and malicious mass-deception in exchange for political, economical, social, religious, and other favors and benefits.”
Thus, I provided the tool for our children who will be able to effortlessly refute the baseless and nagging Armenian allegations in future by saying the civil war that had been raging up to 1915 and the Tereset it inevitably resulted in was no genocide, but what the Armenians and their sympathizers did in misrepresenting it ever since is clearly ethocide.
Or simply:“Ethocide, Not Genocide.”
Ergun KIRLIKOVALI
Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal & Maternal Sides
www.turkla.com
…………
Notes:
[1] A.F.A.T.H.: Armenian-falsifiers and Turk-haters
[2] Comparing a bogus genocide to a bonafide Holocaust is a deception, deliberately conducted by the prominent members of the AFATH community, to establish the credibility they lack in historical evidence by manipulating justified sympathies for the Jewish Holocaust, hence establish “credibility by association”. The rationale behind this heinous move, seemingly steeped in the “Andonian culture”, is the expectation that unsuspecting masses will believe the “alleged Armenian genocide”, if subconsciously, once they hear those Armenian lies uttered in the same breath with the undisputed fact of Jewish Holocaust, a verdict by a competent tribunal (Nuremberg) after lengthy, fair, and thorough due process.
[3] Tereset : Temporary Resettlement (coined by this author) order of 1915 which refers to the Ottoman Council of Ministers Decree dated 30 May 1915.
mitzvah
South Pasadena, CA#208
Wednesday Nov 26
it's easy to be a superpatriot from the comfort of orange County
Making peace is gutsy
Spouting insults with impunity is easy
Are you trying to prove you are a real Turk to those who think you are a Moslem Greek ??
Kirlikovali
Trabuco Canyon, CA#209
Thursday Nov 27
DECLARATION BY 69 PROMINENT AMERICAN ACADEMICIANS
(Part 1 of 3)
The following public declaration, signed by some 69 prominent American Academicians was published in the New York Times and Washington Post on May 19, 1985.
In a most civilized and democratic fashion, exercising their first amendment rights, fulfilling their professional responsibilities, and at peace with their conscience, these academicians spoke out on a matter on which they were experts and reached out to their lawmakers to enlighten and educate them.
What happened to these signatories next is a subject to be studied for years to come, by researchers and experts on Armenian terrorism. Members of the AFATH* community waged a relentless campaign of harassment to scare and silence the signatories. The scare tactics used ranged from threatening phone calls, letters, and confrontations, to defamation, and/or discrimination in academic circles, including direct or indirect political pressure exerted by some AFATH*-supported elected officials. It was truly a terrifying chapter right out of Nazi Germany or Soviet Union era.
Consequently, most of the signatories, mindful of the international Armenian terrorism, had no choice but to lower their public profiles, keep quiet, leave the profession, and/or retire, in order to protect themselves and their families. The writer dubbed this unfortunate episode of American history of the last two decades of the 20th century -still mostly unknown by the American public -“the AFATH Terror in Academia”.
It is clear that the freedom of speech, enshrined in the U.S. constitution, does not extend to those who dispute the AFATH positions, as the AFATH camp do not hesitate one moment to trample on anyone’s freedom of speech, if they feel that person subscribes to opposing views.
Undaunted, we shall continue to fight prejudice and fanaticism amongst us, with facts and reason. We urge our readers to use this document in their letters to the editors to refute the AAG. More important documents will be posted regularly. Pretty soon, you will have everything you need to write compose your own fact-based-letters refuting the AAG**.
(Part 2 of 3)
TO THE MEMBERS OF THE U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
The undersigned American academicians who specialize in Turkish, Ottoman and Middle Eastern Studies are concerned that the current language embodied in House Joint Resolution 192 is misleading and/or inaccurate in several respects.
Specifically, while fully supporting the concept of a "National Day of Remembrance of Man's Inhumanity to Man," we respectfully take exception to that portion of the text which singles out for special recognition:
"... the one and one half million people of Armenian ancestry who were victims of genocide perpetrated in Turkey between 1915 and 1923 ...."
Our reservations focus on the use of the words "Turkey' and "genocide" and may be summarized as follows:
From the fourteenth century until 1922, the area currently known as Turkey, or more correctly, the Republic of Turkey, was part of the territory encompassing the multinational, multi-religious state known as the Ottoman Empire.
It is wrong to equate the Ottoman Empire with the Republic of Turkey in the same way that it is wrong to equate the Hapsburg Empire with the Republic of Austria. The Ottoman Empire, which was brought to an end in 1922, by the successful conclusion of the Turkish Revolution which established the present day Republic of Turkey in 1923, incorporated lands and people which today account for more than twenty-five distinct countries in Southeastern Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East, only one of which is the Republic of Turkey.
The Republic of Turkey bears no responsibility for any events which occurred in Ottoman times, yet by naming 'Turkey' in the Resolution, its authors have implicitly labeled it as guilty of "genocide" it charges transpired between 1915 and 1923;
As for the charge of "genocide," no signatory of this statement wishes to minimize the scope of Armenian suffering.
We are likewise cognizant that it cannot be viewed as separate from the suffering experienced by the Muslim inhabitants of the region. The weight of evidence so far uncovered points in the direct of serious inter communal warfare (perpetrated by Muslim and Christian irregular forces), complicated by disease, famine, suffering and massacres in Anatolia and adjoining areas during the First World War.
Indeed, throughout the years in question, the region was the scene of more or less continuous warfare, not unlike the tragedy which has gone on in Lebanon for the past decade. The resulting death toll among both Muslim and Christian communities of the region was immense. But much more remains to be discovered before historians will be able to sort out precisely responsibility between warring and innocent, and to identify the causes for the events which resulted in the death or removal of large numbers of the eastern Anatolian population, Christian and Muslim alike.
(Part 3 of 3)
TO THE MEMBERS OF THE U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES (cont’d)
Statesmen and politicians make history, and scholars write it. For this process to work scholars must be given access to the written records of the statesmen and politicians of the past.
To date, the relevant archives in the Soviet Union, Syria, Bulgaria and Turkey all remain, for the most part, closed to dispassionate historians.
Until they become available, the history of the Ottoman Empire in the period encompassed by H.J. Res. 192 (1915-1923) cannot be adequately known.
We believe that the proper position for the United States Congress to take on this and related issues is to encourage full and open access to all historical archives and not to make charges on historical events before they are fully understood.
Such charges as those contained H.J. Res. 192 would inevitably reflect unjustly upon the people of Turkey and perhaps set back irreparably progress historians are just now beginning to achieve in understanding these tragic events.
As the above comments illustrate, the history of the Ottoman-Armenians is much debated among scholars, many of whom do not agree with the historical assumptions embodied in the wording of H.J. Res. 192.
By passing the resolution Congress will be attempting to determine by legislation which side of the historical question is correct. Such a resolution, based on historically questionable assumptions, can only damage the cause of honest historical inquiry, and damage the credibility of the American legislative process.
----------
Peace,
Ergun KIRLIKOVALI, Son Of Turkish Survivors From Both Maternal And Paternal Sides, www.Turkla.com
mitzvah
Diamond Bar, CA#212
Thursday Nov 27
ergun,
Turn out the lights, willya?
mitzvah
Corona, CA#213
Thursday Nov 27
Why did the chicken cross the road?
Ergun: to get away from the hateful Armenian conspiracy diaspora which holds the world in it's freemason stranglehold, and which is responsible for the death of Grover Cleveland, not to mention they inject Turkish Taffy with influenza and control the worldwide traffic in capers and mango chutney.
Kirlikovali
Trabuco Canyon, CA#214
Thursday Nov 27
ARMENIAN HISTORIAN SAYS THE HITLER QUOTE IS A HOAX
Part 1 of 2
It has been proven conclusively, by extensive independent research conducted by many scholars, among them Turkish, Armenian, and American historians, that frequently quoted Hitler quote is nothing more than a crude falsification.
An American historian, Dr. Heath Lowry, proved conclusively in his book that the Hitler quote is an “embellishment" of the original Hitler speech and traced the channels through which it reached the American prosecutor in Nuremberg, as well as the obvious role of the genocide crowds in its current use in the U.S. Congress.
What follows below are excerpts from a news article titled “Historian of Armenian Descent Says Frequently Used Hitler Quote Is Nothing But a Forgery”, that appeared in The Armenian Reporter Vol. XVII, NO. 40, on August 2, 1984, where an Armenian historian advises his fellow Armenians not to use this fake quote again.
Dr. Robert John, a historian of Armenian heritage from New York City stated, according the news article, that a commonly used quotation of an alleged statement by Adolf Hitler about the Armenian massacres was a forgery and should, therefore, not be used.( the complete article available at :
http://216.239.57.104/search?q =cache:6ztdC2UPN9sJ:www.tallar meniantale.com/hitler-quote.ht m+historian+Armenian+descent+H itler&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 )
“…Dr. John demonstrated how he had traced the original document in the Military Branch of the National Archives of the U.S.A. after being handed a folder bearing the quotation at a rally outside the United Nations building in New York following the Turkish invasion of Cyprus.
The quotation:‘Our strength is in our quickness and our brutality.... For the time being I have sent to the east only Death's Heads units, with the order to kill without pity or mercy all men, women and children... Who talks nowadays of the extermination of the Armenians?’
Dr. John showed slides of this document, undated and unsigned, with some words cut out of the last page. The statement was supposed to have been made at a meeting of the top German staff of the Obersalzberg on August 22, 1939. The document was released to the international press covering the Nuremberg War Crimes trials on Friday, November 23, 1945.
The trials had commenced that Monday. The document was one of several made available to the press that day. Two-hundred-fifty copies were given to press correspondents, but only five copies were given to the 17 defense counsels - 24 hours before the Court convened on Monday!
Much later in the trial, the German defense lawyers were able to introduce the most complete account of the address, taken down by German Admiral Hermann Boehm, which runs to 12 pages in translation. There is no mention of the Armenians or the rest of the "quotation."
Dr. Robert John said he believed that the document was introduced to create a climate of hate which was needed to stifle the protests of eminent American jurists such as Sen. R. Taft and Chief Justice Harland Stone. He had discussed it with Gen. Telford Taylor, who had said, "I know the document you mean, I don't know its provenance, and I have not used it in my own work."
Part 2 of 2
Furthermore, Dr. John warned that “…violence breeds violence…" after pointing out that "…There has been an increase in Armenian violence since this false inflammatory statement was given publicly…”.
Dr. John, who presented the paper entitled "Information and Misinformation" in Baden Baden, Germany, said he had traced the history of atrocity propaganda, particularly from the British and American views. He said while real atrocities did occur,“…the deliberate fabrication and dissemination of atrocity stories increased the probability of their occurring….”
He summed up by commenting "…Hate hurts the hater and hated. We are still living in the haze of distortions and actual horrors which occurred so long ago…"
Dr. John advises one and all not to circulate the bogus Hitler quotation just to make a political point, because, he says, all that does is fan the flames of hatred and violence, hence the international Armenian terrorism.
Yet, despite scholarly findings from all corners, this quotation sadly has found its way to the halls of congress. It is even inscribed on a wall in the Holocaust Museum, in what may be termed the ultimate insult to the silent memory of 6 million Jews killed during the WWII.
After all, those Jews did not stage armed rebellions; or backstab Germans; or join the invading enemy armies; or start a civil war in Germany; or ethnically cleanse parts of Germany from Germans; in order to establish a Jewish state ion German oil…Armenians did all that and more in the Ottoman Empire during WWI. Why should the Jewish victims of the factual Holocaust be honored under the same roof with the civil war victims of a bogus genocide?
The solution to this kind of problems created by the arrogant use of fraudulent "genocide politics”, might be a two pronged approach:
1) Leave the Holocaust Museum alone; strip the museum of its misleading Armenian add-ons, bogus Hitler quotes, and let it continue to focus on the uniquely Jewish tragedy; and
2) Honor all the victims of man’s inhumanity to man, without classifying or discriminating on the basis of ethnicity, race, religion, or "current local politics", under another roof. Make sure that the native Americans massacres, slave trade from Africa, discrimination against the Blacks, Asians, Latinos and others are also included. Ensure also the inclusion of Turkish victims of Balkan genocide of Turks during 1912-1914 and WWI massacre of Turks during 1914-1918, along with Armenians and others. Then there are millions who perished as a direct result of inhuman policies of Western colonialists, in the 20th Century, a list too long for this space. Such a museum should also feature true genocides in Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia, Soviet Russia, and other places. Don't just shamefully select Armenian victims because of political expediency and rewards.
Such an all encompassing approach to man’s inhumanity to man would be more truthful, righteous, and humane.
Ergun KIRLIKOVALI
***
Legend:
AFATH = Armenian Falsifiers and Turk Haters
AAG = The alleged Armenian genocide
WWI = World War I
Hit n Run
Berlin, Germany#216
Thursday Nov 27
Nice moves Jda. I have seen the other forum.
It took only a couple of days and a dozen of posts for you to become an internet stalker. Now I wonder what you would have become if you received daily insults and death threats only because of speaking your opinion. Ask yourself this and then come out to judge Mr. Kirkliovali...!
mitzvah
Oakland, CA#217
Thursday Nov 27
I actually don't judge him. I first tried to communicate with him, but just got back prepackaged stuff. I don't defend bad acts by Armenians, but he has actually written that most Armenians are hateful.the members of the Dink family
Get a fair number of threats too, but have resisted making generalizations about their fellow Turkish citizens. I agree.
My only present opinion is that what he writes is often risible, and so I have poked fun at it, without attacking Turks in general, or even him.
I appreciate the diplomacy with which you have expressed yourself, and I have intended to be respectful in return. Can you understand that saying only 9000 Armenians does, and that murder explains only a few deaths gets us close to trivializing events even the Turkish state admits were far more tragic?
Finally, I condemn any harassment ergun has received, and I would encourage him to call the police and protect himself. There is no place for that.
busted
Los Angeles, CA#218
Friday Nov 28
death threats are bad, but Kirlikovali deserves every insult he can get for such ridiculous, racist writings!
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#219
Friday Nov 28
The Armenians have defined the the Turkish-Armenian conflict one way, their way, for 93 years. Even this could be understood within the context of ethnic and/or religious fanaticism. After all, it is a free country, you can believe whatever you want, even that the world is flat.
Problem arises when the Armenians demand their claims be declared as settled history with zero tolerance for the other side of the story, coming from Turks ann non-Turks alike. The problem turns into a criminal conduct when these demands turn to violance, as in Armenian terrorism that claimed 70+ innocent lives since 1973, aimed at imposing the Armenian will on others.
Whete the Armenian claims of genocide are recgnized by this country or that, does not change the fact that Armenians engineered, provoked, and waged a civil war within a world war; took up arms against their own government; killed their Muslim/Turkish neighbors; joined the invading enemy armies; demanded territories where they were a minorty to creat Greater Armenia; and did all that with the help of active allies (Russia, Britain, France), passive allies (U.S. diplomated, U.S.Protestant missionaries, the New York Times) and others.
We summarize these as the 6 T's of the Turkish-Armenian conflict:
1- Tumult (rebelions),
2- Terrorism (by Dashnaks, Hunckas,etc.)
3- Treason (Armenian joining the invaders)
4- Territorial demands (where Armenians were a minority)
5- Turkish suffering (at the hands of Armenian revolutionaries; number exceeds half a million Muslims, mostly Turks)
6-Tereset (temporary resettlement triggered by the above 5 T's and misrepeseted by Armenians as genocide.)
No amount of threats, insults, ridicule, slander, thuggery can stop me from telling my side of the story.
Period!
Ergun KIRLIKOVALI, Son Of Turkish Survivors From Both Maternal And Paternal Sides, www.Turkla.com
jda
San Mateo, CA#220
Friday Nov 28
Peace will break out eventually, nationalist and racist types on both sides
notwithstanding.
While Ergun cuts and pastes furiously, to hold off dialogue and mutual understanding, real Turks and real Armenains find ways to talk, including the leaders of their respective Republics :
Refusing the hand of friendship
By Sarah Rainsford
BBC News, Kars, northeastern Turkey
High on a hill overlooking the city of Kars, there is a vast column of concrete obscured by wooden scaffolding.
The hand of friendship has yet to be proffered, let alone accepted
What is inside was meant as a 32m (100ft) peace gesture from Turkey to Armenia.
"It's an image of two human figures, facing one another with a hand of friendship held out between them," explains the security guard, emerging from the portable building at the statue's feet.
But on the day the finished project should have been unveiled its giant hand stands severed on the hillside.
This friendship statue has enemies, and they have forced construction to stop.
Kars is in Turkey's far north-east, within sight of the Armenian border.
But that border has been closed since 1993. Turkey broke off diplomatic ties with Armenia then, backing Azerbaijan in its conflict with Armenia over the region of Nagorno-Karabakh.
The relationship deteriorated further after Armenians stepped up pressure for international recognition that the 1915 deportation and massacre of hundreds of thousands of Ottoman Armenians was genocide. That is something Turkey vigorously denies.
Now there are signs of a thaw in relations.
Turkish President Abdullah Gul broke the ice in September, when he became the first Turkish head of state to visit Armenia - invited to watch his own national side take on Armenia in a football match.
Since then, the two countries' foreign ministers have held three meetings in as many months. Diplomats on both sides say they are "cautiously optimistic" for the future.
"I see no serious obstacle to the normalisation of relations very soon," Armenia's Foreign Minister Edward Nalbandian said this week, on a visit to Istanbul.
So it seems the mayor of Kars was ahead of the game when he commissioned his enormous friendship statue.
I think both sides are increasingly aware that normalising relations is to their benefit
Sahin Alpay
Istanbul politics professor
Naif Alibeyoglu had already collected 50,000 signatures in favour of reopening the Armenian border - almost 70% support.
Activists argue increased contact between Turks and Armenians is crucial to fostering mutual understanding and tolerance.
Most locals simply hope opening the border would pull their remote region out of its poverty.
"We'd love to do business. Kars can develop as a result," says Mehmet, a trader, scooping huge handfuls of stringy white cheese from a barrel at the local market.
"I think the border should open," another stall-holder agrees.
"Kars hasn't got much. Our farming and cattle sectors are almost finished. If there's demand for our cheese in Armenia we could double our income," Soner says.
'Delicate' situation
Annual trade volume between Turkey and Armenia is now estimated at around $150m. But since the border closed it is mostly firms in Istanbul and Ankara doing the business. The lengthy detour via Georgia adds up to 35% to costs.
Kars Mayor Naif Alibeyoglu says both sides struggle with history
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#221
Friday Nov 28
HOW DO YOU REASON WITH A LYNCH MOB?
Part 1 of 5
Deceptive and partisan posts here by the AFATH community provoked such a disturbance in me. They will quote, for instance, the 1948 The United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide for a definition, but fail to read the article 6 of the very same convention which clearly sets out a methodology as to how that verdict of genocide shall be reached: VIA A COMPETENT TRIBUNAL.
Such a tribunal, a la Nuremberg, was never convened and a genocide verdict was never given. How can then so many (Armenians and their sympathizers) benefit from a non-existent verdict for so long (since 1915)? Isn’t that what lynching is all about?
The genocide verdict is not reserved for bloggers, columnists, activists, missionaries, diplomats, academicians, and others. It is a technical legal term where the intent MUST be proven. Let no one underestimate or dismiss that tiny word, like so many others, overwhelmed with stories of suffering of only one side, find it so irresistible to do.
The whole controversy is surrounded around that one tiny word, intent, and the Armenian propagandists and their allies know it well. That is why Armenians never dared to take Turkey to a competent tribunal since 1915 and chose, instead, to fabricate evidence.
TALÂT PASHA TELEGRAMS, for example, were forged to fill that gaping hole in their genocide allegation.
THE INFAMOUS HITLER QUOTE WHICH WAS PROVEN TO BE BOGUS by Prof. Heath Lowry of Princeton It is a good thing the US prosecutor refused to use as evidence that fake document in Nuremberg trials; it was unsigned, undated, out of sequence, and stuck out like a sore thumb in a pile of otherwise neat and orderly Nazi documents. An American journalist introduced it but it was rejected by the U.S. prosecutor because more complete accounts of Hitler speech that day did not have a single mention, of Armenians, directly or indirectly.
THE AMERICAN AMBASSADOR Morgenthau, a rabid anti-Turk, is frequently used as a credible source. He posed as a career diplomat and a historian, but he was neither. He was a real estate agent and a developer from upstate New York who raised the most funds for the Wilson campaign in 1912 and was rewarded with an ambassadorial post by the president elect Wilson.
Armenian falsifications go on unabated.
If the Armenian allegation of genocide ever goes to a competent tribunal one day in future, which it may yet, the intent will be the fulcrum around which the final verdict will hinge. Turkey is confident that if non-partisan, dispassionate scholars looked at the entire body of communications, they will quickly realize that the intent was to temporarily resettle (TERESET) the Ottoman-Armenians who overtly and/or covertly supported Armenian uprisings, terrorism, and treason.
Part 2 of 5
LANGER, WILLIAM L., PROF. OF HISTORY, HARVARD, in his book The Diplomacy of Imperialism, Alfred a. Knopf, New York (1960), p 157, was more thorough and fair than you in your lynching piece:
… Revolutionary placards were being posted in the cities and there were not a few cases of the blackmailing of wealthy Armenians, who were forced to contribute to the cause. Europeans in Turkey were agreed that the immediate aim of the agitators was to incite disorder, bring about inhuman reprisals and so provoke the intervention of the powers. For that reason, it was said, they operated by preference in areas where the Armenians were in a hopeless minority, so that reprisals would be certain.
One of the revolutionaries told Dr. Hamlin, the founder of Robert College, that the Hunchak bands would ‘watch their opportunity to kill Turks and Kurds, set fire to their villages, and then make their escape into the mountains. The enraged Moslems will then rise, and fall upon the defenseless Armenians and slaughter them with such barbarity that Russia will enter in the name of humanity and Christian civilization and take possession’.
When the horrified missionary denounced the scheme as atrocious and infernal beyond anything ever known, he received this reply:‘It appears so to you, no doubt; but we Armenians have determined to be free. Europe listened to the Bulgarian horrors and made Bulgaria free. She will listen to our cry when it goes up in the shrieks and blood of millions of women and children. We shall do it’…
…
These findings are supported by another prominent scholar, a history professor at UCLA, STANFORD J. SHAW (died in 2006), said in his book History Of The Ottoman Empire And modern Turkey , Cambridge University Press (1977), Volume II, page 315:
…Armenians again flooded the czarist armies, and the czar returned to St. Petersburg confident that the day finally had come for him to reach Istanbul.
Part 3 of 5
Hostilities were opened by Russians, who pushed across the border on November 1, 1914, though the Ottomans stopped them and pushed them back a few days later….A subsequent Russian counter offensive in January caused the Ottoman army to scatter…and the way was prepared for a new Russian push into eastern Anatolia , to be accompanied by an open Armenian revolt against the sultan.
…Armenian leaders in Russia now declared their open support of the enemy and there seemed no other alternative. It would be impossible to determine which of the Armenians would remain loyal and which would follow the appeals of their leaders.
As soon as the spring came, then, in mid-May 1915 orders were issued to evacuate the entire Armenian population from the provinces of Van, Bitlis, and Erzurum, to get them away from all areas where they might undermine the Ottoman campaigns against Russia or against the British in Egypt, with arrangements made to settle them in towns and camps in the Mosul area of Northern Iraq.
In addition, Armenians residing in the countryside (but not in the cities) of the Cilician districts as well as those of north Syria were to be sent to central Syria for the same reason. Specific instructions were issued for the army to protect the Armenians against nomadic attacks and to provide them with sufficient food and other supplies to meet their needs during the march and after they were settled.
Warnings were sent to the Ottoman military commanders to make certain that neither the Kurds nor any other Muslims used the situation to gain vengeance for the long years of Armenian terrorism. The Armenians were to be protected and cared for until they returned to their homes after the war…
…
69 other historians, scholars, and other experts on this issue, representing top American universities and colleges in this field, have signed a statement addressed to congress and published it in New York Times and Washington Post on May 19, 1985, supporting Lange’s and Shaw’s findings, saying:
… The undersigned American academicians who specialize in Turkish, Ottoman and Middle Eastern Studies are concerned that the current language embodied in House Joint Resolution 192 is misleading and/or inaccurate in several respects… As for the charge of ‘genocide,’ no signatory of this statement wishes to minimize the scope of Armenian suffering. We are likewise cognizant that it cannot be viewed as separate from the suffering experienced by the Muslim inhabitants of the region.
The weight of evidence so far uncovered points in the direct of serious inter communal warfare (perpetrated by Muslim and Christian irregular forces), complicated by disease, famine, suffering and massacres in Anatolia and adjoining areas during the First World War.
Indeed, throughout the years in question, the region was the scene of more or less continuous warfare, not unlike the tragedy which has gone on in Lebanon for the past decade. The resulting death toll among both Muslim and Christian communities of the region was immense. But much more remains to be discovered before historians will be able to sort out precisely responsibility between warring and innocent, and to identify the causes for the events which resulted in the death or removal of large numbers of the eastern Anatolian population, Christian and Muslim alike…
Part 4 of 5
As the above comments illustrate, the history of the Ottoman-Armenians is much debated among scholars… The AFATH community is trying to bypass scholarship by passing political resolutions in the Congress , thus attempting to determine by legislation which side of the historical question is correct.
Such a resolution, based on historically questionable assumptions, can only damage the cause of honest historical inquiry, and damage the credibility of the American legislative process…
If the scholarship above does not satisfy you, perhaps you would like to hear from the horse’s mouth.
LOOK HOW BOGHOS NUBAR, leader of the Armenian delegation at Paris Peace Conference, in a letter to the Times of London, published on January 30, 1919, begs the allies at Paris conference at the end of World War I, urging them to reward the Armenians for their service:
…The Armenians have been, since the beginning of the war, de facto belligerents - since they fought alongside the Allies on all fronts - in Palestine and Syria, where the Armenian volunteers, recruited by the Armenian National Delegation at the request of the French government, made up more than half of the French contingent.
In the Caucasus, where, without mentioning the 150,000 Armenians in the Imperial Russian Army, more than 40,000 of their volunteers offered resistance to the Turkish Armies.
…
Look what another historian, Guenter Lewy, who also reviewed existing Armenian evidence, says in his article titled Revisiting the Armenian Genocide published in Fall 2005 edition of Middle East Quarterly :
…Most of those who maintain that Armenian deaths were premeditated and so constitute genocide base their argument on three pillars: the actions of Turkish military courts of 1919-20,…, the role of the so-called Special Organization accused of carrying out the massacres, and the Memoirs of Naim Bey which contain alleged telegrams of Interior Minister Talât Pasha….
Yet when these events and the sources describing them are subjected to careful examination, they provide at most a shaky foundation from which to claim, let alone conclude, that the deaths of Armenians were premeditated….
Part 5 of 5
Based on these solid scholarship, isn’t it a bit dishonest to present a complex, contested, and clearly unresolved historical event as settled history to unsuspecting public?
In all fairness, don’t you think Armenians should perhaps qualify their views as the beliefs of the Armenian camp?
It is because of these considerations, I have coined the term ETHOCIDE back in 2003, a brief definition of which is mass deception for political benefit.
As for the Turkish reaction to the ceaseless actions of some lynch mobs in America, ceaselessly defaming Turkish history and heritage, the Turkish prime minister Erdogan summed up the Turkish feeling of perpetual damage to Turkish-American relations with the unfair, unjustified, and unprovoked HR 106 vote, with this:
IP INCELDIGI YERDEN KOPSUN, a popular Turkish saying which means let the thread break where it is thinnest ( akin to the American saying let the chips fall where they may.)
As for me, I would prefer an honorable, just, and lasting peace with Armenia, taking into account Turkish suffering and Armenian complicity in the war crimes of WWI.
… not any peace at any price.
Ergun Kirlikovali, Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides, www.turkla.com
mitzvah
Lake Mary, FL#226
Friday Nov 28
So ergun,
I think you are saying Armenia should apologize for:
1. All Turks killed anywhere anytime
2. Disagreeing with you
3 using the word kebab without acknowledging the superiority of ottoman cuisine
4. Watching the movie midnight express
5. Living
How much of Armenia not to mention Fresno do they have sign over to you?
Jda
Hayward, CA#227
Saturday Nov 29
Ergun,
Until I read your posts here and elsewhere I did not realize the deep visceral hatred that some Turks in this country had for Armenians in general, not just a disagreement with positions about whether Hamidian massacres or Genocide took place. Your shameless invocation of your parents' sad experiences in the Ballans, as if this established the soundness of your arguments concerning Genocides of Assyrians, Armenians and Greeks is a misuse of memory and their suffering.
The need for statesmen to find peace will prevail, just as it has all over the world for centuries. Turkey will look west, not east. It will someday see the Christian part of it's hhistory and culture, and realize that it's culture, and Ottoman culture were a fusion. As part of that process, the Genocides will be acknowledged as crimes by CUP, not by the entire Turkish people.
You demonstrate that there are real Turks who today still rely on the racist arguments used by the CUP.
Here's the hopeful part: there is a change of generations underway. Obama is an example of the worldwide yearning for change. Those of you approaching retirement
Are on the way out, no matter how much you post, no matter how many times you sign your name to invoke your parents, hoping thereby to acquire authority your arguments lack.
Next stop for you: AARP
jda
San Mateo, CA#228
Saturday Nov 29
In reviewing your massive, and often-repeated posts here and there, one thing stands out:
you seldom if ever deal actually with the issue of genocide.
Your major argument is that we in America are not entitled to use the term because there has been no "tribunal" on the issue. That's like saying that I cannot observe, and conclude that a crime occurred until someone is convicted of the crime. The UN Convention does not prohibit any conclusion from being drawn by individyuals or scholars. But if it did, you would have to say you don't know if Genocide occurred. Instead, you say you "know" it did not..
The rest of your remarks address a non existent affirmative defense - peovocation or self defense. These apply to individuals, not races. You are not allowed to slaughter a five year old girl, or drown her mother, or burn Christians alive in their churches because other members of the social and language group join Russian forces or even kill innocent Moslems. We gave up eye for an eye justice some time ago.
Under your theory, Sudan can never be guilty of genocide because the victims support armed rebels who regularly kill, guerilla style, government forces not to mention occasional Arab civilians.
Ergun, volume and capital letters are not facts. Invoking the deaths of your Grandparents in Greece does not pertain to or negate with what Armenians and Armenia suffered.
Jda
Oakland, CA#230
Sunday Nov 30
Ron,
What have Armenians done to you?
Kirlikovali
Trabuco Canyon, CA#231
Sunday Nov 30
Wartime suffering ? Yes, but on all sides, Turks, Armenians, and others, alike...
Genocide? No, not even by a long shot.
The termgenocide does not apply to warring factions.
What Armenians are doing is ethocide, i.e. mass deception for political gain.
That is the plain truth.
Booger
Pasadena, CA#232
Monday Dec 1
Cry me a river, you think you are the only people who served.
jda wrote:
"quoted text"
Armen,
Thank you.
There are two books by Richard Demirjian you might want to read about Armenian Americans who served in WWII, Korea and Vietnam. In their own words. We even had Marine aviators in WWII, and one or two Army Generals to boot.
Today, there are at least two Marines from two of the several Armenian Churches in the Bay Area. I hear also that in 2003, one of the CWOs flying helos over Baghdad was a female Hye.
My great grandfather was in the US Army in 1899.
Here was my message to Bud, number 128.
Bud;
For starters, I suggest you find out who Victor "Transport" Maghakian and Harry Kizirian were before you pull out the Marine credentials. Both got the Navy Cross. Both were Marines. Transport was decribed as a one man Army with Carlson's Raiders at Makin Island, while Harry saved a stretcher party and four wounded Marines on Okinawa.
In WWII about 25,000 Armenian Americans served. Given that the community was very small, that was and still is a huge number. We had survivors of the Bataan Death March, among the paratroopers in Normandy, in air crews throughout the world, including friends of mine.
And while you're looking, try out Ernest der Vishian, winner of the CMH at Anzio.
By the way Armenians are about as Caucasian as possible - that's where they come from.
jda
San Francisco, CA#233
Monday Dec 1
Booger wrote:
Cry me a river, you think you are the only people who served.
No, Mr. or Ms. Booger,
Only that we did our part.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#234
Monday Dec 1
Armenianss also served in the Ottoman armies, but backstabbed their fellow Ottoman soldiers...
I would not be surprised if the Armenians do the same here one day... After all, they did not care if Americans were killed duirng Armenian terrorist attacks.
What's worse is that this Topalian fellow (a convicted Armenian terrorist) stored explosives in a u-rent-a-space locker which was next to a school, a daycare facility, and a gas station! And this Topalian fellow claimed he was an American patriot, with his photos taken with U.S. presidents adorning his office walls. Topalina was caught by the FBI, tried, convicted, and served many years in prison. After he was let out, the AFATH community (Armenian Falsifiers and Turks Haters) treated him like a hero. He now goes around college campuses to advise "the youth". This is Armenian patriotism for you.
For Armenians, Armenia is fisrt and foremost. All the rest are details. I would not trust an Armenian solider in whatever uniform he carries, if history is any guide, that is.
jda
San Francisco, CA#235
Monday Dec 1
I searched for a neutral scholar who made estimates of the Armenians killed by the government in the Ottoman and nationalist time frames, as well as Turkish soldiers and civilians killed by Armenian irregulars, civilians or any of the Allied powers in whose Armies Armenians served. I also looked for the number of Moslems the Ottoman Armies killed to suppress the Arab revolt, deaths which Kirlikovali somehow ascribes to Armenians.
A starting point is the work of Professor Robert J.Rummell, whose area of expertise is studying, world-wide, civilians killed by governments, which he calls democide.
He estiames that in the Ottoman - CUP and nationalist periods, 1915-1923 the Turkish states killed 2.8M Armenians.
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP5.HT...
If you cannot find it with that address, try hus name, Rummmell, along with Turkissh, democide, genocide search terms on Google.
His books and charts are on line. His work is world-wide. He does not shy away from identifying deaths suffered by Moslems.
jda
San Francisco, CA#236
Monday Dec 1
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI wrote:
Armenianss also served in the Ottoman armies, but backstabbed their fellow Ottoman soldiers...
I would not be surprised if the Armenians do the same here one day... After all, they did not care if Americans were killed duirng Armenian terrorist attacks.
What's worse is that this Topalian fellow (a convicted Armenian terrorist) stored explosives in a u-rent-a-space locker which was next to a school, a daycare facility, and a gas station! And this Topalian fellow claimed he was an American patriot, with his photos taken with U.S. presidents adorning his office walls. Topalina was caught by the FBI, tried, convicted, and served many years in prison. After he was let out, the AFATH community (Armenian Falsifiers and Turks Haters) treated him like a hero. He now goes around college campuses to advise "the youth". This is Armenian patriotism for you.
For Armenians, Armenia is fisrt and foremost. All the rest are details. I would not trust an Armenian solider in whatever uniform he carries, if history is any guide, that is.
Mr. Kirlikovali,
Your racial slur on Armenians needs a factual, not an emotional or general response.
Armenian Americans have served honorably by the scores of thousands since the US Civil War. Among their numbers are numerous men cited for gallantry in battle, winning a Congressional Medal of Honor, and numerous other citations including the Silver and Bronze Stars. They include mmy great grandfather, who served in combat in the Spanish American War. I too have served my county in uniform. I doubt that you have.
The Republic of Armenia also sent a small detachment to Iraq to fight Al Qaeda, which of course Turkey declined to do. In fact, Turkey refused even to allow Americans to overfly Turkey in support of the Iraq invasion, or to use the assets in that country. Defense analysts have concluded that Turkish neutrality cost some American lives. I do not claim Turkey must follow the American examplke, but you are on weak footing attacking Armenian war valor.
You claim that Armenian members of the Ottoman Armey backstabbed - your word, not mine, their comrades. In truth, several hundred thousand unarmed Armenian labor conscripts were killed on government orders in uniform throughout Anatolia. There is plenty of schoalrship on the issue.
Booger
Pasadena, CA#237
Monday Dec 1
jda wrote:
"quoted text"
No, Mr. or Ms. Booger,
Only that we did our part.
I did mine too but I don't take every opportunity to brag about it to everyone. Learn some humility gypsies.
jda
San Francisco, CA#238
Monday Dec 1
apology recommended by former Turkish diplomat
Below is Ara Arabyan’s translation of retired Turkish diplomat Volkan Vural’s interview with Taraf (Sep 8, 2008), where the former Ambassador says Turkey must apologize to Armenians.
“[Duzel] In response to an invitation by the president of Armenia, President Abdullah Gul went to Yerevan to watch the soccer game [between the Turkish and Armenian national teams]. We have a dispute with Armenia over historical events. Was not the Armenian president’s invitation to Gul before the resolution of this dispute a political risk for himself?
[Vural] Of course it was a risk. The decision to invite the Turkish president to the soccer game was not an easy decision for Armenia. We view the world solely through our own lens. We must also look at events from the perspective of others. There is a neurosis about Turkey in Armenia. Consequently, it is not easy to make any decision related to Turkey.
Politicians may have to pay–indeed have paid–a high price for such decisions.
[Duzel] Who paid such a high price?
[Vural] Former President Levon Ter Petrosyan was ousted from office because he sought a solution to the Karabakh problem and to establish ties with Turkey. They made him pay the price of establishing ties with Turkey. Today, even though a major portion of the people of Armenia want relations [with Turkey] to develop and the borders [between the two countries] to open–the Turkey dossier is not so easy to handle as it is thought.
[Duzel] Is it easy to handle the Armenia dossier in Turkey?
[Vural] It is also difficult in Turkey. However, the reality is that the problem between us and Armenia is not something that can be resolved by historians alone. That is because this is psychological and political issue rather than a historical matter. There is a certain psychology, distrust, fear, and terror that the events of the past have created among people.
[Duzel] Do you not think that Armenian and Turkish historians can solve this problem if they discuss the events of the past freely and describe them objectively?
[Vural] A solution to this problem cannot be found via history alone, because a solution requires overcoming the psychological problems this issue has created among people. A solution requires the creation of a climate of trust in which the two peoples can draw closer with affection and respect and where they can talk to each other with ease. This is not a situation that historians can overcome. The Armenian question is a problem that needs to solved by politicians, not historians. History can only shed light on certain issues and play a role that facilitates a solution. That is all.
[Duzel] Do you think that any diplomatic steps will be taken in the aftermath of the [Turkish] president’s visit to Armenia?
[Vural] I expect and hope that they will be taken.
jda
San Francisco, CA#239
Monday Dec 1
balance of Mr. Vural's interview to be posted tonight.
If you doubt what he said, google vural, armenian and apology.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#240
Monday Dec 1
Vural is doing business with Armenia, thus the turning of the coat.
Your numbers, as always, are extremely inflated. Pro-Armenian writers regurgitate Armenian propaganda first and then AFATH writers come into play one more time citing those biased numbers. They tell us: "See? So and so is not Armenian but says this." And we are supposed to be hoodwinked? Not any longer, my friend, as your jig is up!
That's how 8,400 Armenians killed in feuds and 45,000 perished sue to hunger, epidemics, and elements, yileding a total of 53,800 became
"more than 200,000" first (Paris Peace Conference Report dated 29 March 1919),
600,000 two months after that (Poster printed by Armenians splattered all over the U.S. in May 1919),
"about a million" in 1970s,
"about two million" in 1980s,
"about 3 million" in 1990s,
It dropped down to 1.5 million nowadays,
but some are still using the term "more than a miliion"...
So much for Armenian numbers...
I would suspect the Armenian lobby if they said 2 + 2 = 4 to me.
Armenian credibility is so low, that Armenians came up with new tools to deceive the public:
"credibility by association" (always cite Jewish Holocaust with Armenian arguments)
"credibility by extension" (bring in other ethnic groups like Assyrinas, Greeks, Kurds, etc. and form a front)
"credibility by laundering" (Get a bunch of retired psycologists, third grade sociologists, etc and confer upon them the meaningless title of "gencoide scholar"; as they regurgitate Armenian propaganda, you collect the goodwill.)
"credibility by other methods" 9too long to list here.
In short, the Armenian j-i-g i-s u-p !
jda
San Francisco, CA#241
Monday Dec 1
Mr Kirlikovali,
I represent nobody, Iam not what you think of as a Diasporan.
The work of Rummell was presented as a starting point. He is unbiased.
So you are now saying that the Armenian death toll is 4.7 per cent by "feuds?" Meaning non-Moslems killed them?
Kirlikovali
Trabuco Canyon, CA#242
Monday Dec 1
8,400 Armenians killed in feuds, in Turkish "mukatele", rough translation: mutual killings.
45,000 perished due to hunger, epidemics, and other elements, yielding a total of 53,800.
All of these are based on "crime scene reports" and cane be produced, authenticated in a "competent tribunal": which the AFATH community frets so terribly.
If a number can go from 54,000 to 200,000 to 600,000 to 1 million to 2 million to 3 million bact to 1.5 million and now rests on "more than a million figure", you should suspect Armenian fould play, with or without Rummel of any shade or color.
I find your quotes, numbers, sources, and your entire case "ethocidal".
If ytou want sympathy for your rebellions, terrorism, treason, agitation, propaganda, or whateverelse, I am the wrong address.
Because I am on to you people... The Armenian jig is up!
(Now, what part of this is so difficult to understand?)
Jda
Norco, CA#243
Monday Dec 1
can you identify any scholar who thinks only 8400 Armenians died by human hands between 1915 and 1923?
Does "feud" mean Armenian v Armenian violence?
Kirlikovali
Trabuco Canyon, CA#244
Monday Dec 1
Turkish Historical Society which actually read, understood, and evaluated those Ottoman documents. It is curious that although the Ottoman archives constitute half the story, technically, no one in the AFATH camp seems to have rtead them, not that they can as the Ottoman language is a refined combination of Turkish, Arabic, and Farsi. But at least, they can creat a team, translate documents, and study them. No one has done that. You would be amazed as to what kind of details there are in them. They also corroborate and are consistent within them. The Turkish side can refute Armenian claims effortlesly in any "competent tribunal". That is why the Turkish stand is so clear and self-confident. I recommend you read Dr. Kemal Cicek's book "1915-1916 Through Ottoman Imperial Documents."
No, feud does not mean Arm-vs-Arm. It means, tit-for-tat; mutual killings, Arm kill Turk, Kurd, and Circassian; the latter retaliate in kind. Former kill again; latter retaliate again. And so on. Again, all of these can be dopcumented to the precise locations. Suspected mass grave sites of Muslims are even listed, awaiting digging.
A few years ago, a Swedish team claimed a location in Anatolia to be a mass grave site for Armenian victims. A joint Turkish-Swedish team did the digging; bones found belonged to Muslims (as evidenced by Islamic religious items found on skeletons. We never heard back from that Swedish team again.
Turkish Historical Society says "if 1.5 million Armenians were really killed, then where are the mass graves?" If you claim it is impossible to locate sites for those mass graves, fasten your seatbelts: because Turks were able locate the mass graves for the Muslim victims of Armenian atrocities. So the question begs to be asked: where are those 1.5 million Armenian bodies?
You see where I am going with this?
jda
San Francisco, CA#245
Tuesday Dec 2
Mr Kirlikovali,
Your posts are as farcical as they are devoid of humanity.
In trying to evade, avoid and excuse mass murder by the State, you attempt to make yourself a bigger victim than the millions of Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians who perished. This type of heated "blame the victim" mentality used to be quite common among Germans who effectively blamed Jews for their own destruction, while pointing out the unrelated hardships suffered by Germans.
Are you claiming that Turkish gendarmes, soldiers, irregulars, and specially-released prisoners sat down after masssacring Armenian women and children to write accurate "accident reports" every time they slit throats, bayoneted, burned, clubbed and drowned Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks, and that both these supposed records and the lack of records are accurate representations of what happened in Anatloia?
I even see that you effectively accused Armenians of killing Hrant Dink. Were those smiling police officers posing with the Turkish flag and Samast Armenians, too?
Your writings are a dead letter, as are your sentiments. The world laughs at your arguments.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#246
Tuesday Dec 2
JDA,
I keep asking questions to you but gt no answers. The reason I keep doing it is not that I expect to get any answer from you, but to show the world the hypocrisy behind the Armenian propaganda. You cannot answer those questions because that would be admitting the fact that it was a civil war provoked and waged by the Armenians with activ (Russia, Britain, France) and passive (US diplomats, missionaries, media and other) support.
I'll ask questions about two simple subjects to you in fornt of the world public opinion and see if you can handle them HONESTLY and CORRECTLY?
Subject 1: Armenian rebellions
Did Armeniens take up arms against their own government?
Did they establish groups to organize propaganda, agitation, recruitment, armed training,transfer of arms and ammo through many routes into the Ottoman Empire, kill Turkish officials, kill even Armenians who were judged to be traitors, organize attacks on Turkish villages and towns and government facilities?
Did some Armenian religious leaders actually take part in those mutinous acts?
Are there photos and maps of these plans, attacks, and murders?
2- All that brings us to the next question on Muslim/Turkish mortality:
How many Muslims, mostly Turks, did Armenians kill during WWI?
Ergun Kirlikovali, Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides, www.turkla.com
Booger
Pasadena, CA#247
Tuesday Dec 2
Armeinans sure are long winded. Maybe that is why the Turks went after them. Just to shut them up
jda
San Francisco, CA#248
Tuesday Dec 2
Mr Kirlikovali,
Referencing your statement: "Because I am on to you people... The Armenian jig is up!" at post 242, in which you assert that only about 61,000 Armenians died in total, 1915-1916:
Your favored professor, Mr. Lewy, writes that over 642,000 Armenians died in 1915-1916 alone. Is he a victim of inherently untrustworthy sources and Armenian influence? Too much pilaf?
Your number is less than 10 per cent of his number.
Most scholars think the 1915-1916 numbers are higher, but we take for granted you - a polymer expert - disagree. You're entitled, this is a free country.
Why do you think you're right and your favorite Professor is wrong? Is it that he didn't read the Ottoman "accident reports"?
Let's assume as a given that ethnic Armenians were in the Russian, French, British and even the American Armies, and that each killed Turkish and Moslem soldiers in battle. Let's even assume that some irregulars killed innocent Moslems. Let's assume that there were even armed insurrections at Van and elsewhere, similar to what American patriots did in 1775-1781. Or not similar.
None of that bars the label "genocide" from being applied to actions of the Ottoman state, led by murderers and racists, as they caused the killings of hundreds of thousands or millions of Christian civilians. See, e.g. Darfur, where the USA has no problem calling Genocide what it is, in a situation where the victim group can accurately be shown to have armed rebels.
Your effort to call Armenian deaths the products of "feuds" started by Armenians is truly beyond belief and decency. Apparently your present hatred for Armenians reaches back to the Armenians of 1915 and before.
If there were time, I would send these unspeakable strings of your comemnts to CNN for their documentary Thursday night. I assume you are busy at work copying stuff for their website.
Give up. It won't make any difference. Your audience is you and your ultra nationalist, "Turks can do no wrong" pals. Kurds, Arabs, Persians, Armenains, Nestorians, Chaldeans, Assyrians, Greeks of the Aegean and Pontus all have the same terriblle histories and memories.
jda
San Francisco, CA#249
Tuesday Dec 2
More on Lewy:
Here are excerpts from his MEQ article you so lavishly praised in print:
"The key issue in this controversy is not the extent of Armenian suffering; both sides agree that several hundred thousand Christians perished during the deportation of the Armenians from Anatolia to the Syrian desert and elsewhere in 1915-16.With little notice, the Ottoman government forced men, women, and children from their homes. Many died of starvation or disease during a harrowing trek over mountains and through deserts. Others were murdered.
Historians do not dispute these events although they may squabble over numbers and circumstances. Rather the key question in the debate concerns premeditation.
Whether to apply the genocide label to the events that occurred almost one hundred years ago in the Ottoman Empire may be of minor consequence to many historians, but it remains of great political relevance. Both Armenian partisans and Turkish nationalists have staked claims and made their case by simplifying a complex historical reality and by ignoring crucial evidence that might yield a more nuanced picture. Professional scholars have based their positions on previous works, often unaware that these represented a bastardized interpretation of the original sources. With the political stakes high, both sides have sought to silence opponents and stymie a full debate.
Turkish leaders have applied diplomatic pressure and threats; the Armenian government has accused those who do not acknowledge that the massacres constituted genocide of being deniers who seek to appease the Turkish government.
Some Turkish and Armenian historians have suggested recently that it is time to "step back from the was-it-genocide-or-not dialogue of the deaf, which only leads to mutual recrimination" and instead concentrate on empirically grounded historical research that seeks a common pool of firm knowledge.[56] Time will tell whether it will be possible to rescue history from nationalists who have plundered history to serve their own political ends."
Mr Kirlikovali, do you see yet that you are the mirror image of the caricature of an Armenian Diasporan nationalist you so detest?
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#250
Tuesday Dec 2
JDA,
You are so typical diaspora: one way, all the way!
What do I have to do to get a straight answer from you?
I keep asking questions to you keep posting convoluted messsages to cloud the issue, thus evading a repsonse. It ain't going to work, because I am not interested in your warped sense of one way history.
The reason I keep asking these questions is to show the world the hypocrisy behind the Armenian propaganda.
You cannot answer those questions because that would be admitting the fact that it was a civil war provoked and waged by the Armenians with active (Russia, Britain, France) and passive (US diplomats, missionaries, media and other) support.
Here we go again:
1- Did Armenians take up arms against their own government?
2- Did they establish groups to organize propaganda, agitation, recruitment, armed training,transfer of arms and ammo through many routes into the Ottoman Empire, kill Turkish officials, kill even Armenians who were judged to be traitors, organize attacks on Turkish villages and towns and government facilities?
3- Did some Armenian religious leaders actually take part in those mutinous acts?
4- Are there photos and maps of these plans, attacks, and murders?
5- Did Armenian establish 150,000 men strong Armenian armies to fight their government?
6- All told, how many Muslims, mostly Turks, did Armenians kill during WWI?
Ergun Kirlikovali, Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides, www.turkla.com
jda
San Francisco, CA#251
Tuesday Dec 2
Ergun,
Even in the most remote kindergartens of Anatolia, children readily learn to differentiate between what they feel about a person, and the truth, fairness and persuasiveness of what that person says. A person we like may be wrong; one we detest may be logical. Therefore, we don't as adults waste our time attacking character, we try to analyze ideas on their own merits.
An exception to this rule applies to courtroom evidence where the witness is giving testimony about their personal observations. There, it is fair game to attack the person's credibility.
So, if you were alive in the 1915 -1923 period, and you wanted to attack the honesty of every surviving Armenian, Greek and Assyrian, of every humane Turk who hid or helped Armenians, or who protested government deportation and annihalation orders, of almost every newspaper reporter, of every Protestant Christian woman aid worker, of every US consul, and of almost every German and Austrian member of the General Staff, of Armin Wegner, of Lepsius, not to mention the US Ambassador Morgenthau, be my guest. For that matter, you are free to rake all the Genocide Scholars, not to mention Niall Ferguson and Bloxham and countless others, Orhan Pamuk, Elif Shafak, Fatma Gucek, and Fethiye Cetin over the coals too. You've tried, and failed, and will fail as often as you try. Keep trying.
These pointless debates between and among us, however, are, from your vantage, an attack on the character of people like myself who merely disagree with you, and an attack on the character of scholars with whom you disagree.
As to the merits, you merely repeat the "facts" and analyses you think prove that either there never were any Armenians at all in Anatolia, or they all killed Turks, and suffered no Genocide.
You have your questions about how many people Armenians killed as members of the western armies, or in other capacities. As I am sure every other skilled polymer businessman would have figured out by now, that question might be relevant to some deportation, or other, lesser defensive measures, not to genocide, not to mass killings - admitted by Professor Lewy, by the way. See the Darfur example.
Nobody is reading these comments anymore. And you have nothing more to say that's new.
The one thing missing in every post of yours is the smallest statement of respect or sympathy for the Christian dead. I have offered my respect to all the dead, and dispossessed, including yours, who were never harmed by Armenians.
John
Pomona, CA#252
Tuesday Dec 2
Armenia vs Turkey. Christians vs Muslims. "Bout sums it up. The "Religion Of Peace" strikes again!
Hit n Run
Berlin, Germany#253
Tuesday Dec 2
Just a note...
Rand Rummel is a cold war "scholar". A pseudo humanist… He doesn´t know a single thing about the Ottoman history (also it is questionable if he has any deep knowledge in any type of historical era or land). All he did was writing down the numbers he got from Dadrian´s books and similar sources.
He cannot even differentiate between the Russian uniform and Ottoman uniform.
see: http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/RM1.ARM.SLAU...
Please read the last line!
He was such a fool (or was he?) to put up an un-sourced picture from Armenopedia and present it in his "scholarly" web site. He was not even suspecting (or wasn’t he?)before being warned.
What I hate the most is a cheat using humanity values and creating a “psychological warfare” weapon out of it! Disgusting!!!!
You see all "John"s of the world are at the Armenian side automatically.
Jda
Brentwood, CA#254
Tuesday Dec 2
hit and run,
Welcome back to the verbal demolition derby.
As to Rummell, I suggested only that his work be regarded as a starting point. I had never heard of specialists in governmental killings worldwide. Maybe he was hit on the kalough by a big Armenian coconut, but I thought it was
interesting plus he did not seem to be an apologist for Armenians, Turks or Malawis.
Jda
Lake Mary, FL#255
Tuesday Dec 2
I wonder why he would post the pic while acknowledging it might not be what he thinks it is. The Nobel will be delayed.
Jda
Los Angeles, CA#256
Tuesday Dec 2
I think the "johns" and "boogers" are about equal.
I should tell john my sister has been a Sufi since age 16.
Or maybe confuse him about hemshenli
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#257
Wednesday Dec 3
JDA,
I got you exactly where I wanted you: foaming at the mouth with insulting innuendos and slander but unable to answer some simple questions.
It is not your fault; you are just brought up exposed only to one side of the story. just like those Armenian terrorists who never met a Turk but ready to kill one and just like pretty much all members of the AFATH (Armenian Falsifiers and Turk-Haters)
Having made my point, I will cut you off this conversation now and return to those open-minded truth-seekers who are probably reading your manipulative, arrogant, and rude posts with wide eyes;
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
You saw it here, if you haven't seen it in many other blogs already, that the diaspora Armenians are one way, all the way. They will resort to monologues and if you show signs of boredom or doubt, you will be insulted, as I was. They have zero tolerance for facts or figures which they fear may dismantle their claims.
The questions below, which could or would not be answered by any in the AFATH community, are the reasons why. You owe it to yourselves to ask these questions to all AFATH advocates. If they can answer any of these questions, you'll know it was a civil war. That's why the AFATH community does not dare take Turkey to the International Court of Justice, just to avoid the following questions:
1- Did Armenians take up arms against their own government?
2- Did they establish groups to organize propaganda, agitation, recruitment, armed training, transfer of arms and ammunition through many routes into the Ottoman Empire, kill Turkish officials, kill even Armenians who were alleged to be traitors, organize attacks on Turkish villages, towns and government facilities?
3- Did some Armenian religious leaders actually take part in those mutinous acts?
4- Are there photos and maps of these plans, attacks, and murders?
5- How many Muslims, mostly Turks, did Armenians kill during WWI?
Ergun Kirlikovali, Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides, www.turkla.com
jda
San Francisco, CA#258
Wednesday Dec 3
'The one thing missing in every post of yours is the smallest statement of respect or sympathy for the Christian dead. I have offered my respect to all the dead, and dispossessed, including yours, who were never harmed by Armenians.'
jda
San Francisco, CA#259
Wednesday Dec 3
Ergun,
You need to learn to discriminate. The word has a poor connotation today, but it really means to choose skillfully.
I have never said anything intemperate, and at most have chided you, sometimes with humor, for poor reasoning skills.
Contrary to what you apparently presume, I think solely for myself, and am not persuaded by highly nationalistic Armenians, or repelled by all Turks because of the occasional intemperate person who supports the Turkish state's positions. As you may have seen, my sister is a Moslem, and the experiences of both sides of my family makes me sympathetic and interested in all claims of persecuton, oppression, cleansing and death. Not much foam there.
I have communicated temperately and with respect with at least one other probable Turkish person on this Board who, like you, rejects vehemently the Genocides theses, and ridicules the excesses of some Diasporans.
I think he appreciates that Armenians are not a monolith. This has yet to sink in with you.
The difference between you and him is merely that while complaining about the Diaspora of today, he has shown respect for the Christian dead of 1915-1923, just as I do for the Moslem dead. It is indecent not to.
Without that basic humanity, there can be no communication, just grandstanding.
Comparing the Armenian dead to a dead fly, in a supposed joke, in your sole jab at 'humor" is deeply insulting and arrogant. They were "fighting words". It made me wonder if my impression of Turks in America is wrong - are there really large numbers of racists and louts among them? I trust not.
You are so busy screaming, that you do not even realize what you say, your automatic disavowal of Lewy's words is a case in point. Another is your argument that no Armenian Genocide can be said to have occurred, as no tribunal has so held, even as you place the label on the admitted sufferings and killings of Anatolian and Balkan Muslims.
Armenians and Turks need to make peace. They will. The ultra-nationalists on both sides, like you, are trying to prevent it. To make peace, many probably have to agree to disagree on certain issues, as scholars on both sides have stated. Nationalists on both sides get a lot of rewards from their dwindling fan bases, but peace is more attractive to Ali or Aram in the street.
You tirelessly chronicle day by day the acts of Armenian terrorism occurring in the 70's and 80's. It is a very valid complaint, and I agree that those who did these things were criminals. However, there is no logical connection between these acts in the 80's and what happenned in 1915-1923, anymore than the killing of Hrant Dink, or the subsequent ridicule of those who marched in the streets in support of him and against his murder in 2007 proves Genocide.
Your contribution to peace between the communities: you wrote an article wondering aloud if Dink was killed by "anti-Turks", a group you use as codeword for Armenians, inter alia. I assume that the court cases plus the revelations concerning Ergenkon have made you realize your question has been answered. Or maybe you think Mossad did it.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#260
Wednesday Dec 3
It looks like someone has found a lot of time to write all of the above but, somehow, neglected, again, to answer my questions that I asked for half a dozen times or so.
It looks like we are two ships passing by at night. Until, of course, I get some answers to my questions.
Under the circumstances, I am turning my attention from now on to open-minded trutj-seekers.
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize that the Armenians cannot answer some simple questions posed below. These people and others like them call a civil war a genocide and demand that you do the same. Do you agree to lower your standards to their level? Or do you genuinely want to find out what really transpired during WWI between the Turks and the Armenians?
Here are some of those questions you should be asking to the next person who claims, without any court verdict by a “competent tribunal” supporting them, that the Turkish-Armenian civil war was a genocide:
1- Did Armenians take up arms against their own government?
2- Did they establish groups to organize propaganda, agitation, recruitment, armed training, transfer of arms and ammunition through many routes into the Ottoman Empire, kill Turkish officials, kill even Armenians who were alleged to be traitors, organize attacks on Turkish villages, towns and government facilities?
3- Did some Armenian religious leaders actually take part in those mutinous acts?
4- Are there photos and maps of these plans, attacks, and murders?
5- How many Muslims, mostly Turks, did Armenians kill during WWI?
6- Are warring factions included in the term genocide?
Peace,
Ergun Kirlikovali, Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides, www.turkla.com
PS: For everyday the Armenians write, I shall add a new question to this list for you to ask the genocide crowds.
jda
San Francisco, CA#261
Wednesday Dec 3
its your nickel, write away.
What is a 'genocide crowd?"
Booger
Pasadena, CA#262
Wednesday Dec 3
I was told by an Armenian that the Armenians are the first Whites or Aryan people. Can someone shed some light on this?
jda
San Francisco, CA#263
Wednesday Dec 3
boog,
don't listen to everything you hear.
"white" is a meaningless term.
So is Aryan, unless you are a Nazi
You can only say that Armenian is one of nine related Indo European languages, which include Sanskrit, Farsi, Kurdish, Gaellic, German and English, among others.Present day Armenian has hundreds of loan words from Persian and Turkish and Arabic.
Genetic distance work on Armenians shows we are closely related to Pashtuns, who live in Afghanistan. The language is most closely related to Greek.
As is similar to the case with Irish, Arabs, and the Turks of Anatolia, Armenian language invaders from Thrace and Phrygia invaded eastern Anatolia and the southern caucasus thousands of years ago, leaving behind their language and culture on those local people they conquered, the descendents of whom self-classify as Armenian.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#264
Wednesday Dec 3
Part 1 of 999
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their baseless claim of genocide. They call the Turkish-Armenian civil war a genocide and demand that you do the same.
Do you agree to yield to their nagging presure? Or do you genuinely want to find out what really transpired during WWI between the Turks and the Armenians?
Here are some of those questions you should be asking to the next person who claims, without any court verdict by a “competent tribunal” supporting such a claim, that the Turkish-Armenian civil war was a genocide:
1- Did Armenians take up arms against their own government?
2- Did they establish groups to organize propaganda, agitation, recruitment, armed training, transfer of arms and ammunition through many routes into the Ottoman Empire, kill Turkish officials, kill even Armenians who were alleged to be traitors, organize attacks on Turkish villages, towns and government facilities?
3- Did some Armenian religious leaders actually take part in those mutinous acts?
4- Are there photos and maps of these plans, attacks, and murders?
5- How many Muslims, mostly Turks, did Armenians kill during WWI?
6- Are warring factions included in the term genocide?
7- Is the verdict genocide strictly reserved for a “competent tribunal” per 1948 UN Convention?
Peace,
Ergun Kirlikovali, Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides, www.turkla.com
PS: For everyday the Armenians write, I shall add a new question to this list for you to ask the genocide crowds.
jda
San Francisco, CA#265
Wednesday Dec 3
Ergun,
This is a great game.
Who won the '47 Series?
I am looking forward to your question 8. We have the Library of Congress on stand-by.
No truth-seeker would come within a mile of this
bogh.
jda
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#266
Wednesday Dec 3
Part 1 of 999
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their baseless claim of genocide. They call the Turkish-Armenian civil war a genocide and demand that you do the same.
Do you agree to yield to their nagging presure? Or do you genuinely want to find out what really transpired during WWI between the Turks and the Armenians?
Here are some of those questions you should be asking to the next person who claims, without any court verdict by a “competent tribunal” supporting such a claim, that the Turkish-Armenian civil war was a genocide:
1- Did Armenians take up arms against their own government?
2- Did they establish groups to organize propaganda, agitation, recruitment, armed training, transfer of arms and ammunition through many routes into the Ottoman Empire, kill Turkish officials, kill even Armenians who were alleged to be traitors, organize attacks on Turkish villages, towns and government facilities?
3- Did some Armenian religious leaders actually take part in those mutinous acts?
4- Are there photos and maps of these plans, attacks, and murders?
5- How many Muslims, mostly Turks, did Armenians kill during WWI?
6- Are warring factions included in the term genocide?
7- Is the verdict genocide strictly reserved for a “competent tribunal” per 1948 UN Convention?
8- Have Armenian claims been subjected to scrutiny at any court of law competent in matters of international dispute, as set forth by the 1948 U.N. Convention?
Peace,
Ergun Kirlikovali, Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides, www.turkla.com
PS: For everyday the Armenians write, I shall add a new question to this list for you to ask the genocide crowds.
goon
San Francisco, CA#267
Wednesday Dec 3
YES! ERGUN!
I WANT TO ENROLL IN YOUR "90 DAYS TO HATE ARMENIANS CLUB" WITH FULL PRIVILEGES!
SIGN ME UP TODAY TO GET YOUR "HOW TO INTERROGATE ARMENIANS" DVD AND VIDEO, WITH DIAGRAMS. I WANT TO LEARN THE SECRETS OF ORANGE COUNTY ARGUMENTATION FROM A TRUE MASTER OF RHETORIC. I WANT TO LEARN TO ADD NEW BAFFLING QUESTIONS DAILY.
AND YES, RUSH ME MY OWN COPY OF "ERGUN'S HUMBLE GIFTS TO ENGLISH" INCLUDING ALL THE BEST ACRONYMS.
TEACH ME TO SAY THE SECRET PASSCODE "I AM A MEMBER OF THE GENOCIDE CROWD AND AM A HATEFUL ARMENIAN FALSIFIER" SO I CAN ATTEND ALL THE GOOD MEETINGS WHERE WE MAKE FUN OF MIKE CONNORS, CHER AND AKIM TAMIROFF.
THANK YOU.
GOONE
San Francisco, CA#268
Wednesday Dec 3
Dear Truth Seekers,
With the outstanding help of Ergun, we at the Institute of Ottoman Lesisure Studies, have made some truly astounding discoveries recently about the so called deportation of Armenians in 1915. Our careful reading of Ottoman Archives has led us to some important conclusions.
First, what the Armenian lobby calls "deportation" never really happened at all. Armenians were merely encouraged to take six weeks paid vacation in Syria. Syria in April is not only tres chic, but it is also tres healthy, with ample sunshine and cool, clear water in the unpolluted rivers.
Second, because many Armenians were overweight, we encouraged them to walk more, rather than to use the fully-equipped Range Rovers generously, if thoughtlessly, supplied by the government. Records show that the walking cure worked, well, miracles, to reduce those unwanted pounds.
Third, despite our best efforts, many Armenians in 1915 insisted on littering the beautiful Anatolian landscape with clothing and refuse, dead bodies and that sort of thing. No matter how many times we asked them to be neater, they continued to just die and leave themselves dead whereever they dropped. We don't allow that sort of thing in Coto.
Fourth, the Armenians just decided they liked living in Syria better. It has some really great outdoor adventure spots, including the fascinating caves at Der Zor, and some really extreme sports locations. Who can blame them?
Anyway, we have tried to bring you the real answer to the riddle of "where did all the Armenians go?".
We'll be back tomorrow with some questions and answers about the best way to tell if an Assyrian is reallly an Assyrian, or just a big fat Armenian kidder.
rabbe steve
San Francisco, CA#269
Wednesday Dec 3
Dear Ergun,
i have just received your new article saying that Turks are the New Jews. On behalf of the Old Jews, and some really, really Old Jews, let me welcome all the Turks to be Jews.
Unfortunately, there is a little more to it than not getting along with Arabs and Armenians. There is a series of steps you need to follow. Let's see if you like them.
Research Jewish laws, history and customs, and talk to Jews about their religion. Figure out what you are getting into, and determine why you want to do it. Be aware that Judaism is a major commitment which will affect every part of your life, will last as long as you live, and may even transfer to your children. The "Judaism 101" online encyclopedia is a great resource for beginners.
The food is not bad. Speak with your family about your intention to convert. This can often be a touchy subject among families, so be sure to explain your reasoning and desire to become Jewish. Make sure that you are comfortable with your decision to leave your former religion, if you had one.
If you are converting because of marriage, speak with your future husband/wife to determine the best course of action, including what denomination you will join. There are three main branches, all with differing levels of observance and ritual: Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform.
Once you feel that you have sufficient reason to convert, make an appointment with a Rabbi to discuss the process. Be prepared for the rabbi to try to dissuade you, or turn you away. Many rabbis consider this part of their job. The goal is not to prevent honest seekers from converting, it is to test the individual's commitment, and make sure that becoming a Jew is truly what he or she wants. If you are persistent, show that you know what you're getting into and are still committed to doing it, the rabbi may eventually decide to start you on the path to conversion.
Unlike in many religions, converting to Judaism is not fast or easy. You will need to spend at least a year studying (many organizations offer night classes) and living a Jewish life before your conversion is finalized. Your studies will cover the basics of Jewish history and culture, and you will also receive some instruction in the Hebrew language.
At the end of your studies, you will take a test to determine how much you've learned. You will also be questioned before a Jewish court (called a Beit Din, consisting of three authorities) about adherence to the Halacha, as part of the conversion proceedings.
If you have passed all these steps, a conversion ceremony will be scheduled. It will involve a ritual bath (full-body immersion in a Mikveh), and if you're an uncircumcised male, you will also need to be circumcised.
Children born prior to the end of conversion do not become Jews if their parent converts. If they want to be Jewish, they will have to go through conversion themselves after they reach the age of 13. Children born to a Jewish woman AFTER she has converted are Jewish automatically.
Best of Luck! Mazel-Tov,
Your pal Rabbe Steve.
[edit] Tips
Jda
Los Angeles, CA#270
Wednesday Dec 3
last week Lewy,
This week Quaetert
Last week you demonstrated your blind opposition to any statement expressing the slightest sympathy for Armenians, even if it was written by Professor Lewy. Realizing your mistake, you penned a column and messages even a Cray supercomputer couldn't untangle.
No problem-O as we say in Tijuana. Let's try again to see your skills.
Prof Quaraert is an Ottomanist of renown, who signed the 1986 statement you cherish. But, starting with the 2000 edition of his text, and again the 2005 edition,he says without qualification that the genocide thesis is plausible.
In his 2006 review of Bloxham's book, he says it without equivocation.
No problem-o as we say in Tijuana
Jda
San Francisco, CA#271
Wednesday Dec 3
is quataert an Armenian falsifier?
Why do you disagree with him?
Have you read his sources?
Since you write columns about how you "know" a Genocide occurred, you must be able toexplain why prof quaeraert is wrong.
Why?
Jda
Redondo Beach, CA#272
Wednesday Dec 3
sorry I meant "didn't occur"
Booger
Pasadena, CA#273
Thursday Dec 4
jda wrote:
boog,
don't listen to everything you hear.
"white" is a meaningless term.
So is Aryan, unless you are a Nazi
You can only say that Armenian is one of nine related Indo European languages, which include Sanskrit, Farsi, Kurdish, Gaellic, German and English, among others.Present day Armenian has hundreds of loan words from Persian and Turkish and Arabic.
Genetic distance work on Armenians shows we are closely related to Pashtuns, who live in Afghanistan. The language is most closely related to Greek.
As is similar to the case with Irish, Arabs, and the Turks of Anatolia, Armenian language invaders from Thrace and Phrygia invaded eastern Anatolia and the southern caucasus thousands of years ago, leaving behind their language and culture on those local people they conquered, the descendents of whom self-classify as Armenian.
I was told that the word Caucasian comes from the people who lived in the Caucus mountains and they were Armenian. But thanks for the info.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#274
Thursday Dec 4
Part 1 of 999
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their baseless claim of genocide. They call the Turkish-Armenian civil war a genocide and demand that you do the same.
Do you agree to yield to their nagging presure? Or do you genuinely want to find out what really transpired during WWI between the Turks and the Armenians?
Here are some of those questions you should be asking to the next person who claims, without any court verdict by a “competent tribunal” supporting such a claim, that the Turkish-Armenian civil war was a genocide:
1- Did Armenians take up arms against their own government?
2- Did they establish groups to organize propaganda, agitation, recruitment, armed training, transfer of arms and ammunition through many routes into the Ottoman Empire, kill Turkish officials, kill even Armenians who were alleged to be traitors, organize attacks on Turkish villages, towns and government facilities?
3- Did some Armenian religious leaders actually take part in those mutinous acts?
4- Are there photos and maps of these plans, attacks, and murders?
5- How many Muslims, mostly Turks, did Armenians kill during WWI?
6- Are warring factions included in the term genocide?
7- Is the verdict genocide strictly reserved for a “competent tribunal” per 1948 UN Convention?
8- Have Armenian claims been subjected to scrutiny at any court of law competent in matters of international dispute, as set forth by the 1948 U.N. Convention?
9- Based on the following assessments by the world renown historian Guenter Lewy, would you conclude that Armenian allegations are unsubstantiated by historical facts and they are political messages at best?
“…Most of those who maintain that Armenian deaths were premeditated and so constitute genocide base their argument on three pillars: the actions of Turkish military courts of 1919-20,…, the role of the so-called "Special Organization" accused of carrying out the massacres, and the Memoirs of Naim Bey, which contain alleged telegrams of Interior Minister Talât Pasha…. Yet when these events and the sources describing them are subjected to careful examination, they provide at most a shaky foundation from which to claim, let alone conclude, that the deaths of Armenians were premeditated….”
[Source:“Revisiting the Armenian Genocide” published in Fall 2005 edition of Middle East Quarterly
Peace,
Ergun Kirlikovali, Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides, www.turkla.com
PS: For everyday the Armenians write, I shall add a new question to this list for you to ask the genocide crowds.
jda
San Francisco, CA#275
Thursday Dec 4
Hi, Ergun,
I was merely pointing out that your questions were not relevant to whether genocide occurred. They may or may not explain the motivations by the CUP for deportation or worse, but they are not relevant directly to whether Genocide occurred.
Marching people out into the country or the desert and killing them, or allowing them to be killed by others with the active enouuragemenT of the state as controlled by the racist murderers of CUP is still Genocide. You seem to be saying the murderers had a really good reason to kill the defenseless. See Darfur.
Asking questions can be relevant to the genocide question. Here are some for you:
1. Why, if at all, do you disagree with the 2000, 2005 text and 2006 book review comments by former agnostic or denialist Quaetert that the Genocide thesis is plausible (2000) or true (2006)?
2. How many Armenian women were raped?
3. Killed?
4. How many Armenian males ages 18-60 were conscripted into unarmed labor battalions of the Ottoman Army in 1914?
5. How many were killed by their military comrades while disarmed?
6. How many survived their service in the Army?
7. How many babies were bayonetted, burned alive,drowned and stomped to death by Ottoman Army soldiers, gendarmes, and others taking order from the state?
8. How many government civilian actors such as Governors ordered civilian Armenians to be killed?
9. How many of the approximately 5,000 serving Armenian Apostolic priests serving in Anatolia on April 1, 1915 were alive one year later?
I can pose relevant questions too.
jda
San Francisco, CA#276
Thursday Dec 4
Free Speech in Europe
Laws prohibiting political speech in Switzerland or Turkey are idiotic, in my view. The "commission of historians" proposed by some cannot work under trhe best of circumstances where academics fear prosecution for expressing their opinions.
Today we learn of an idiotic new form of harassment; the Istanbul public prosecutor has opened a case against a Belgian professor for saying that Ataturk, if alive today, would be indicted for war crimes. The Belgian academic made these remarks in Belgium. Thus, somebody in Turkey today thinks it has jurisdiction to prosecute speech made outside its borders. This must be an effort to derail EU accession.
Dr. Ronald Monch from the University of Bremen has been accused of insulting Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. In a speech at the European Parliament in Brussels on Nov. 13, Monch said if Ataturk were alive today, he would have to stand trial for war crimes.
The text of Münch’s speech will be requested from Belgium. After the text is analyzed and if it finds the case to be within its mandate it can seek a one to three year prison term for Münch. Alternatively, the prosecution can conclude there is a lack of grounds for legal action. Law Number 5816 of the Turkish Criminal Code, or TCK, deals with crimes against Atatürk. According to Article 1 of this law, "Those who publicly insult or swear at the memory of Atatürk can be sentenced to a prison term of between one to three years." Article 2 of the law states a conviction can be doubled if the crime is committed collectively or through the media. Article 12 of the TCK states if a foreigner commits a crime against Turkey that person will be tried upon entering Turkey.
Beware future tourists!
jda
San Francisco, CA#278
Thursday Dec 4
Dear CNN,
We are really, really mad about your Genocide documentary because you say that Armenians were the victims of a Genocide.
They were just the victims of bad trip planning. All their fault, too. They forgot the AAA travel books which would have told them where to get prompt and helpful treatment for stab wounds, traumatic amputations, fractured skulls, burns, rapes, bludgeonings,that sort of thing.
We are sending you thousands of identical angry emails right now, even though we haven't yet seen the show.
Don't send Christiane Amanpour - say, is "Christiane" a Crusader name?- to Trabzon or Istanbul any time soon, she's an Armenian falsifier for sure.
jda
San Francisco, CA#280
Friday Dec 5
REAL HONOR, REAL GUTS
Many people from Turkey, including PM Erdogan, have made statements about Turks being incapable of Genocide. This is an argument incapable of analysis, because it is not empirical. but there is no reason to believe in Turkish exceptionalism anymore than any other type.
Others say that a claim of Genocide is somehow an unbearable attack on Turkish national honor. Why admitttedly allowing women and children to die by negligence and indifference is not a stain on "national honor", but Genocide is, beats me.
Here is a news story about human honor and decency that more than makes up for all the nonsense Ergun posts here, there and everywhere. Notice that the authors extend sympathy, but avoid the Genocide term. This is a brave first step to justice and reconciliation.
And it is about men and women brave and deeply honorable:
"In an unprecedented gesture, a group of Turkish intellectuals have publicly apologized for what they called a “great disaster” that befell the Ottoman Empire’s Armenian minority and urged their compatriots to follow suit.
“I cannot conscientiously accept the indifference to the great disaster that Ottoman Armenians suffered in 1915, and its denial. I reject this injustice and acting of my own will, I share the feelings and pains of my Armenian brothers and sisters, and I apologize to them,” reads a petition signed by them and published by the “Zaman” daily on Friday.
The newspaper said the signatories will ask other intellectuals and ordinary Turks alike to sign the petition.“We are searching for human beings,” one of them, scholar Baskin Oran, was quoted as saying.“We thought about urging the state to apologize but we decided to let individuals act according to their conscience. This call is for everybody.”
According to “Zaman,” some Turkish civil society representatives were quick to object to the campaign.“For me, all these events [of 1915] were the fault of Turkish nationalism flourishing at that time, and personally I don’t identify with it,” historian Ayse Hur told the paper.“So I do not feel the need to apologize personally.”
Another intellectual, Aytekin Yildiz, pointed to the signatories’ failure to describe as “genocide” the deaths of an estimated 1.5 million Armenians during the final years of the Ottoman Empire.“What do they mean by ‘great disaster’?” he said.“Let’s face it, it was genocide.”
The Turkish state vehemently denies that the Armenian massacres, a taboo subject until recently, constituted a genocide. It insists that Ottoman Armenians died in much smaller numbers as a result of civil strife, rather than a premeditated government policy.
The official version of events is increasingly questioned by independent Turkish scholars and other intellectuals, even if few of them publicly use the word genocide in reference to the mass killings and deporations. Dozens of them gathered at a private Istanbul university in 2005 for a landmark conference that sparked angry protests from Turkish nationalist groups.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#281
Friday Dec 5
Part 3 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations.
There are so many holes in the Armenian thesis, arising from the fact that the latter was always accepted at face value without scrutiny, that one can list these questions effortlessly. Here are some of those questions you should perhaps ask the next person who screams genocide in your face:
12- There are millions of Turks today who have tragic stories of entire Turkish families and neighborhoods having been wiped out by Armenian nationalists armed by the Western allies. Some of the Muslim victims, mostly Turkish, were themselves refugees who survived terrible massacres in the Balkans, the Aegean Islands, the Crimea, the Caucasus, and elsewhere and who were resettled into Eastern Anatolia only to be met by yet another cycle of Christian violence at the hands of Armenian bands. Isn’t it true that their stories were never told, their pain and suffering were never noticed, and their tears never seen, due to the endless Armenian propaganda which has saturated the West since 1915?
13- More than 69 Western scholars, experts, and researchers of Ottoman history categorically rejected the appropriateness of the genocide label for the fate of the Armenian community in Ottoman Turkey in an statement published in 1985. Doesn’t dismissing such awe-inspiring array of learned opinion boil down to bigotry?
14 - Careful reading shows that the reports of British, French, American, German, Austrian, and Russian consular officials and Western missionaries, confirm the occurrence of killings, though in a biased and sometimes even racist manner, but do not implicate the "Special Organization" or any other agency of the central government. And almost none of these mention the terrible massacres to which the Muslims were subjected and which are documented in the Ottoman archives. When the entire body of evidence put together, the picture emerging explains most non-partisan historians use the phrase “a civil war within a world war” to describe the Turkish-Armenian conflict. Why is it that we hear very little, if at all, about Turkish suffering? Why this double standard?
15 - Isn’t the blanket Armenian allegation of a systematic elimination of the Armenian population undercut by the exemption of the large Armenian communities of Istanbul, Izmir, Edirne, and Aleppo from Tereset (temporary resettlement)?
16- The alleged telegrams of Talât Pasha contained in the Naim-Andonian book supposedly ordering the killing of all Armenians are exposed as crude forgeries not only by Turkish historians but also by almost all Western students of Ottoman history. How scholarly or honest is it to base the serious accusation of genocide on a proven forgery?
Peace,
Ergun Kirlikovali, Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides, www.turkla.com
PS: For everyday the Armenians write, I shall add a new question to this list for you to ask the genocide crowds.
jda
San Francisco, CA#282
Friday Dec 5
Booger wrote:
"quoted text" I was told that the word Caucasian comes from the people who lived in the Caucus mountains and they were Armenian. But thanks for the info.
There are hundreds of languages spoken in the Caucasus region. There are many Moslem groups, some very small, while the major Christian groups are Armenains and Georgians. This is where Chechens, Circassians, Turkics, Azeris, Lesghis, Mingrelians, Ossetians, Abkhaz, Tats, Greeks, all kinds of Slavs, and many more live. Some are fair with blue eyes, other look v middle eastern, and are v dark. The Georgians speak Kartvelian, a Caucasian language
An 18th c German academic asumed this was the home of the 'white race", hence "caucasian.
ChiliHead
Dec 5
Comments: 393
Pasadena, CA#283
Friday Dec 5
jda wrote:
"quoted text"
There are hundreds of languages spoken in the Caucasus region. There are many Moslem groups, some very small, while the major Christian groups are Armenains and Georgians. This is where Chechens, Circassians, Turkics, Azeris, Lesghis, Mingrelians, Ossetians, Abkhaz, Tats, Greeks, all kinds of Slavs, and many more live. Some are fair with blue eyes, other look v middle eastern, and are v dark. The Georgians speak Kartvelian, a Caucasian language
An 18th c German academic asumed this was the home of the 'white race", hence "caucasian.
Thanks
jda
San Francisco, CA#284
Friday Dec 5
Ergun,
You are neither accurate nor logical.
Your whinging post above decries the world's lack of sympathy for the Moslem and Turkish dead of WWI. If true on both counts, it does not mean that a Genocide of Christian Anatolians did not occur. You cannot accuse me of any lack of sympathy - I have expressed it repeatedly and sincerely. I repeate it here.
For one demanding that respect be shown to the Anatolian and Balkan Moslems of 1912-1923 (the latter of whom Armenians never even allegedly bothered - they lived 2000 km away from the Balkans) you have a funny way of seeking it - by insulting the Christian dead, comparing them to dead vermin. Your post 173:
"Question: How do you kill a fly?
Answer: Well, you tell the fly a great story and when it is not looking, you jump the fly. Quickly tie its hands and feet and turn it over belly up. Then you start tickling its stomach which causes the fly to laugh violently. Its stomach ruptues of laughters and it dies. Very very effective way to kill a fly, as you can see.
So, the Turks want to kill all the ARmenians and they figure "Hey, if we send only the ones in the East on a journey, give them mule-carts to carry their loads and soldiers to protect them and allow Western help to save them, maybe they will somehow die all together. Here is fail-proof plan!"
Finally, whether the CUP perverted the offices of the Ottoman state to commit Genocide is a logically distinct and separate issue from whether some Armenians committed crimes, even horrific ones.
At most, these crimes you allege pretty much nonstop may have nurtured a genocidal desire in CUP leadership and idealogues, but they do not legally or morally excuse what are otherwise Genocidal acts which were the product of centralpalnningand execution, not spontaneous uprisings in the towns and vilages where Armenians lived. In short, you help make the case for Genocide by emphasizing why the CUP may have wanted the Christians gone for good.
See also Darfur, where the Sudanese Arab government defends what I think even you and Turkey call Genocide against Christian and animist Balck southerners who admittedly have raised rebel, armed raiders who attack the Arab northerners, civilian and military alike. This is the same kind of actions you allege against some Armenians to negate the Genocide thesis.
Consider that Professor Quaetaert can make the logical discrimination you can't or won't. He has writtten extensively of Moslem and Turkish suffering, and even of Armenian armed uprisings. See his 2005 text at pp 174 ff. Yet, after looking at the mounting evidence, commencing eight years ago, this former Denialist or Agnostic Ottomanist - who reads Ottoman - affirmed the Genocide, more strongly in each iteration.
Please tell us all why Professor Q is wrong.
jda
San Francisco, CA#285
Friday Dec 5
more on Professor Unspellable:
The dispute started when he published a book review in the Journal of Interdisciplinary History in the fall of 2006. The review, which included both praise and criticism, was of Donald Bloxham’s The Great Game of Genocide: Imperialism, Nationalism and the Destruction of the Ottoman Armenians (Oxford University Press). In the review, Quataert talks about how when he entered graduate studies in Ottoman history in the late 1960s,“there was an elephant in the room of Ottoman studies — the slaughter of the Ottoman Armenians in 1915.” He writes that “a heavy aura of self-censorship hung over Ottoman history writing,” excluding not only work on Armenians, but also on religious identity, the Kurds and labor issues. Only in recent years, he continues, has the “Ottomanist wall of silence” started to crumble.
Quataert notes concerns about the use of the word “genocide,” namely that discussions of its use or non-use can “degenerate into semantics and deflect scholars from the real task at hand, to understand better the nature of the 1915 events.” But despite those concerns, he writes that there is no question today that what took place meets United Nations and other definitions of genocide, and that failure to acknowledge as much is wrong.
Of using the term, he writes:“Although it may provoke anger among some of my Ottomanist colleagues, to do otherwise in this essay runs the risk of suggesting denial of the massive and systematic atrocities that the Ottoman state and some of its military and general populace committed against the Armenians.”
That sort of analysis is not exceptional for historians writing about the period. Most leading scholars of genocide have said that it is beyond question that what took place was a genocide. In 2005, for example, the International Association of Genocide Scholars issued a letter that said in part:“We want to underscore that it is not just Armenians who are affirming the Armenian Genocide but it is the overwhelming opinion of scholars who study genocide: hundreds of independent scholars, who have no affiliations with governments, and whose work spans many countries and nationalities and the course of decades.”
Tell me, EK, why is he wrong?
gottawonder
Los Angeles, CA#286
Friday Dec 5
Pasadena Resident wrote:
"quoted text"
So all we're good for is selling gasoline and cheating people? So what do you do for a living? Every Armenian I know personally is extremely accomplished and educated. Sure.. there are some that sell gasoline, just as there are in every nationality.
But why am I spending time arguing with a fool like you?
Everybody's a fool except you these days, I guess...
gottawonder
Los Angeles, CA#287
Friday Dec 5
jda wrote:
Most leading scholars of genocide have said that it is beyond question that what took place was a genocide. In 2005, for example, the International Association of Genocide Scholars issued a letter that said in part:“We want to underscore that it is not just Armenians who are affirming the Armenian Genocide but it is the overwhelming opinion of scholars who study genocide: hundreds of independent scholars, who have no affiliations with governments, and whose work spans many countries and nationalities and the course of decades.”
Tell me, EK, why is he wrong?
EK doesn't care about that. He is on a pro-muslim propaganda campaign.
jda
San Francisco, CA#288
Friday Dec 5
gottawonder wrote:
EK doesn't care about that. He is on a pro-muslim propaganda campaign.
I am sure EK is no great friend of Muslim Albanians (who revolted against Turks), Muslim Arabs (who, in guerilla raids and open battles with the British, who, by the way had an Armenian formation), and Muslim Lebanese, not to mention Muslim Kurds and Alewis.
I think it is more Anti-non-Turk than anything else.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#289
Friday Dec 5
Part 4 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations.
There are so many holes in the Armenian thesis, arising from the fact that the latter was always accepted at face value without scrutiny, that one can list these questions effortlessly. Here are some of those questions you should perhaps ask the next person who screams genocide in your face:
17- If Armenians wish to believe that the verdict of the Turkish courts-martial of occupied Istanbul during 1919-1920 is proof of the guilt of the Young Turk regime in the premeditated murder of Ottoman Armenians, they are free to do so. Armenian sympathizers, however, should know that the evidence used by the military tribunals, including but not limited to witness and expert testimony, confessions, searches and seizure is hardly reliable. They were never cross-examined. What’s worse, this evidence simply does not exist and the original documentation of the trials is conveniently “lost” by the Armenians and their victorious “foreign” allies. What we have today are “copies” of some documents in the gazette of the Ottoman government and the press in occupied Istanbul. Could even a single person be convicted of murder based solely on hearsay and press reports? How can the Armenians convict a whole nation of the most serious crime? Isn’t all this a bit too extreme?
18- I am deeply saddened and somewhat offended by the anti-Turkish biased presentations in this blog. Isn’t presenting only one side of a controversial issue such as this one, while censoring the other side unfair and unethical ? You would not think about covering controversial subjects, such as abortion, gun control, immigration, war in Iraq, or others with only one side of the story told, would you? Why then would you settle for one side of the story when it comes to the Turkish-Armenian conflict? All we hear is the Armenian views; where is the Turkish point of view here? Why this prejudice against the Turks and the Muslims?
19- According to the Armenians, Turkish pain does not exist. Turkish dead do not matter; only Armenian dead do. Turks do not deserve a chance to be heard? Do you subscribe to such a blatantly racist approach?
20- I don’t believe I read Armenians’ account of the well-documented facts that the Ottoman-Armenians resorted to agitation, terrorism, armed revolts, and supreme treason (as in joining and invading enemy), in that order, from 1890 to 1915. Do you deny these facts to make your genocide allegations stick?
Peace,
Ergun Kirlikovali, Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides, www.turkla.com
PS: For everyday the Armenians write, I shall add a new question to this list for you to ask the genocide crowds.
jda
San Francisco, CA#290
Friday
WHICH ERGUN STATEMENT IS TRUE?
1. "GUENTER LEWY PROVED THERE IS NO GENOCIDE"
- E.KIRLIKOVALI,12.1.08,TURKISH FORUM
2. "Among other works, Professor Lewy is author of The Armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey: A Disputed Genocide, which concludes that the evidence to support the popular allegation of genocide in the Armenian case is inconclusive"
PRESS RELEASE INCLUDED IN ARTICLE DATED 12.4.08 BY E. KIRLIKOVALI, TURKISH FORUM.
jda
San Francisco, CA#291
Friday
"I am deeply saddened and somewhat offended by the anti-Turkish biased presentations in this blog. Isn’t presenting only one side of a controversial issue such as this one, while censoring the other side unfair and unethical ? You would not think about covering controversial subjects, such as abortion, gun control, immigration, war in Iraq, or others with only one side of the story told, would you? Why then would you settle for one side of the story when it comes to the Turkish-Armenian conflict? All we hear is the Armenian views; where is the Turkish point of view here? Why this prejudice against the Turks and the Muslims?'
You're kidding, right?
jda
San Francisco, CA#292
Friday
Ergun,
I see how deeply victimized you claim to be by the hordes of wild eyed ahistorical Turk-haters, falsifiers, and all, but could you actually quote or direct us all to some of these "lynchings" on the net you've been subjected to? In one column you say Turks are "the new [persecuted] jews", and in another, I think you liken Armenians to the KKK, which will be a big surprise for a group that does not much like any of us, jews, armenains or turks.
By the way, to "lynch" means to wrest control of a person from the custody of law enforcement officers, not to answer a line of quotes the quoter does not even understand, e.g. your insistence Lewy "proved" there was no Genocide.
Maybe Amnesty International can help you.
jda
San Francisco, CA#293
Friday
and if not Amnesty, maybe a class in remedial logic.
jda
San Francisco, CA#294
Friday
From the Ergun collection:
"17- If Armenians wish to believe that the verdict of the Turkish courts-martial of occupied Istanbul during 1919-1920 is proof of the guilt of the Young Turk regime in the premeditated murder of Ottoman Armenians, they are free to do so. Armenian sympathizers, however, should know that the evidence used by the military tribunals, including but not limited to witness and expert testimony, confessions, searches and seizure is hardly reliable. They were never cross-examined. What’s worse, this evidence simply does not exist and the original documentation of the trials is conveniently “lost” by the Armenians and their victorious “foreign” allies. What we have today are “copies” of some documents in the gazette of the Ottoman government and the press in occupied Istanbul. Could even a single person be convicted of murder based solely on hearsay and press reports? How can the Armenians convict a whole nation of the most serious crime? Isn’t all this a bit too extreme?"
Actually, Ergun, you've got things wrong once more. Let's put them right.
The "evidence" - meaning the military tribunal transcripts - were never in the hands of the Armenians, who never controlled Constantinople/Istanbul. The evidence disappeared in 1922 after nationalist Kemalist forces took the City. You just can't pin this on the Allies, either.
But, all is not lost as to these transcripts, even if Kemal A's forces swiped the transcripts. Which most of us mere Americans figure means the Turks in power at the time did not like what they said:
A case in point of surviving documentation is the detailed narration of the organization and execution of the Armenian genocide by General Mehmet Vehip, the commander-in-chief of the Turkish third Army. The bulk of the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire was subject to the military jurisdiction of that army, and the most gruesome and inexorable aspects of the genocide were inflicted upon that population—prior to Vehip's taking over the high command. The general's detailed account is not only prima facie evidence of the great crime, but it is also testimony to the uprightness and decency of a Turkish military commander—unfortunately a rarity of rarities in the all-consuming atmosphere of state-sponsored denials.
jda
San Francisco, CA#295
Friday
Even though the original is missing, the full text was read into the record of the court-martial proceedings on 29 March 1919, with portions of it having been published in Ta vim-i Va ayi[hamza ], the government's official gazette (no. 3540, 5 May 1919 and no. 3771, 9 February 1920). This entire text was also published in the April 1919 issues of the French-language but Turkish-owned newspaper Le Courrier de Turquie, as well as in Va it, a Turkish daily, on 31 March 1919.
Without mincing words, this vaunted Turkish general declared that the central committee of the ruling monolithic political party of Ittihad (the Union and Progress Party, otherwise identified as CUP), in line with the terms of "a resolute plan" (mu arer bir plan) and "a definite prior deliberation" (mu[tdotu ]la bir a[sdotu ]d ta[hdotu ]tinda), ordered "the massacre and extermination" ( atl ve imha[hamza ]) of Armenians and that governmental authorities [rüesa[hamza ]-yi [hdotu ]ükumet] meekly and obediently submitted to this CUP order.
Furthermore, the general disclosed that countless convicts were released from the empire's various prisons for massacre duty; he described them as "gallows birds" (ipten ve kazikdan kurtulmus yaranini) and "butchers of human beings" (insan kasaplari)(as cited in Taner Akçam, A Shameful Act: The Armenian Genocide and the Question of Turkish Responsibility [2006], 154, and in Dadrian, IJMES 34 [2002], 85, n. 111).
Or, consider the consular reports of an American. You still do like Americans, don't you, Ergun:
Leslie A. Davis, the wartime American Consul in Harput. Of special importance are accounts of his visits to several mass execution sites, one of the few such reports available from any source. In his pungent summary report, Davis "estimated that the number is not far from a million," when giving an approximation of the magnitude of Armenian victims.
He also emphasized that the massacres were not all perpetrated "by bands of Kurds,"but by government-appointed and government-directed "gendarmes who accompanied" the deportee convoys.
Confirming General Vehip's disclosure, Davis directly implicated "companies of armed convicts who have been released from prison for the purpose of murdering the Armenian exiles." The American consul's conclusion is compressed in this single statement:
"The whole country is one vast charnel house, or, more correctly speaking, slaughterhouse" (Davis, The Slaughterhouse Province: An American Diplomat's Report on the Armenian Genocide, 1915–1917 [1989], 156, 158, 160).
Jda Los Angeles, CA#296
Friday
will a brave and honorable Turk speak up?
Chances are that few people read these comments, but if Turks are reading these remarks, I implore you. Not to repudiate Ergun, but instead to state any position you may have if different.
When I first read these comments I was struck by the 6 comments of Ergun, because they are the same things Nazis said about my grandmother, that they were all traitors who would merely be temporarily resettled. The Nazis said it was Madagascar; ergun thinks it was Aleppo. In both cases it was false.
But I recognize you may differ.
What I ask is that you say the smallest statement of respect or kindness to the memory of these dead Christians , and their way of life.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#297
Part 5 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations.
There are so many holes in the fake Armenian thesis, arising from the fact that the latter was always accepted at face value, without scrutiny, that I can list these questions effortlessly.
The Armenians resort to ridicule, insults, slanders, threats, and other evasive tactics like answering only questions of their own design, but can never answer these questions.
Here are more of those questions you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face:
21- The Armenians activists label "deniers” all who rightfully challenge the baseless Armenian accounts of history. Those “deniers” are then harassed even terrorized-- as an unfortunate incident at UCI in 2007 showed where a student was attacked by Armenians just for being Turkish. Some Armenian even go farther than that to categorically label all Turkish-Americans paid Turkish government agents. Do you think such intimidation and terror tactics by Armenians are justifiable? Do you agree with Armenian falsifiers and intimidators?
22- I believe Armenian accounts boil down to dishonest history with racist interpretations and should have no place in a civilized society. Wouldn’t it be fair to invite the representatives of the responsible opposing views to challenge the unfounded allegations of the Armenian camp at every panel discussion, TV show, documentary, film, and other forums, if only for the benefit of unsuspecting truth-seekers? Isn’t a thoughtful and lively debate always better than a partisan monologue or a bigoted chorus?
23- Isn’t Genocide is a legal term precisely defined by the U.N., that can be used only after a verdict is reached by a competent tribunal (such as Nuremberg), after due process where both sides of the conflict are properly represented and heard and cross examined? Does such a court decision exist? Have Turks ever been heard? Shouldn’t this term , in all fairness, truth, and objectivity, be preceded by the qualifier "alleged" until a competent court decides that the term genocide applies to the Turkish-Armenian conflict? Isn’t insisting on a guilty claim without a court verdict supporting it an exercise in lynching?
24- As the table in McCarthy’s book,“Death & Exile”, clearly demonstrates, Turkish and Muslim losses are too enormous and spread over too long a period in history to “casually escape one’s attention” or to be considered an “honest oversight”. Can you appreciate how important it is for the Turkish-Americans and other Muslim-Americans, that any balanced coverage of the Turkish-Armenian conflict during World War One mention the truth about the more than 3 million Turks and Muslims killed by the allies and their Ottoman-Armenian cohorts? Especially when 523,000 of those victims met their end at the hands of Armenian revolutionaries between 1914-1918 alone?
Peace,
Ergun Kirlikovali, Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides, www.turkla.com
PS: MY PLEDGE: Every time the Armenian falsifiers post a message, I pledge to you, open-minded truth-seekers, that I shall add one or more questions to this list for you to ask those genocide crowds.
Jda, Los Angeles, CA#298
Ergun,
I guess you think you are lighting the Moslem orange county world ablaze, but the next time you try to rouse the faithful, you might want to consider that in WWI Turkish soldiers killed over 40,000 Arabs, all Moslems, in suppressing the Arab rising, at least 20,000 Albanians, mostly Moslems, 100,000 Druze, and 75,000 Lebanese, mostly Moslems.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#299
Monday Dec 8
Part 6 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. There are so many holes in the fake Armenian thesis, arising from the fact that the latter was always accepted at face value, without scrutiny, that I can list these questions effortlessly. The Armenians resort to ridicule, insults, slanders, threats, and other evasive tactics like answering only questions of their own design, but can never answer these questions.
Here are more of those questions you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face while pounding your kitchen table with his shoe:
25 - Are the atrocities committed against Turks and Muslims not worth less time, attention, and/or respect? Are their lives less valuable than the lives of the Christian Armenians?
26- Here is what By Justin McCarthy says on page 309 of his book DEATH AND EXILE:“… The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922 (Princeton: Darwin Press, 1995): Total of 5,060,000 Muslim Deaths and 5,381,000 Muslim Refugees. Have Armenians or their supporters been just, fair, and honest in covering both sides of this issue over the years? How can any person ignore such an enormous human suffering spread over such a long time? Isn’t this bias and bigotry at its worst?
27 - Because of all this lopsided coverage of the Turkish-Armenian history in America, a Turkish-American had coined a new word back in 2003, his humble gift to the English language: Ethocide. Coined from the words "ethics" and "cide" (killing), ethocide means " systematic extermination of ethics via malicious mass deception for political, social, cultural, economic, religious, and/or other gain". Isn’t it time that this ethocidal coverage of the Turkish-Armenian conflict riddled with anti-Turkish bias and bigotry gave way to sensible dialogue to properly evaluate a complex chapter in history where my Turkish predecessors paid the highest price in terms of loss of life and property, and 93 years later, it seems, dignity?
28- Don’t Armenian claims seem to find acceptance only in those platforms where Turkish views are censored? Isn’t it ironic that the truth is not in what the Armenians say, but in what they don’t say? Where is the Turkish suffering in Armenian presentations? Where are the Armenian terrorism, armed uprisings, treason, and territorial demands? Where is more than half the story?
Peace,
Ergun Kirlikovali, Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides, www.turkla.com
PS: MY PLEDGE: Every time the Armenian falsifiers post a message, I pledge to you, open-minded truth-seekers, that I shall add one or more questions to this list for you to ask those genocide crowds.
jda
San Francisco, CA
#300
Monday Dec 8
Additional questions for Armenian falsifiers and genocide crowds:
1. Where in this podunk town can I get decent lahmajoon?(alt spelling lamacun)(note to Ergun; before you claim this as the exclusive property of the great Turkish nation, recall that the words are Arabic - they invented it);
2. Where can I get some pilaf that
doesn't taste like microwved Uncle Bens?
3. Got any Udi Hrant LPs?(note to Ergun - Udi was Armenian);
4. I need some lol (stands for leg of lamb).
Ergun, if you can get these vast mobs of falsifying turk-haters eating and dancing, they won't have time to "collude" (your word, not mine) with the vicious:
Assyrians, Greeks, Greek Cypriots, Macedonians, Bulgarians, Serbs, Croats, Albanians, Arabs (even Moslems can dislike some events in Turkish history), Druze, Palestinians, Montenegrins, peaceniks, Franz Werfel fans, biased media outlets, crooked historians, dopey newscasters, Taner Akcam, Halil Berktay, Fatma Gocek, Turkish intellectuals and apologists, Turkish betrayers of the great Ataturk (oops! am I now liable for prosecution by imagining someone who said something lukewarm about Big Daddy himself?), Barney the Dinosaur (never mourned the Moslem dead even once on his show), and Bernie Mac (actually 1/2 Armenian, and not dead) David Hedison (1/2 Armenian), Cher (ditto) and Rush Limbaugh.
Don't worry about Limbaugh. I was jsut tersting to see if you are reading.
jda
San Francisco, CA
#301
Monday Dec 8
temper tantrum
Dear US Congress,
If you pass a nonbinding resolution about the so called Genocide of the so-called Armenians, we will:
1. hold our breath, or yell, scream, tear our hair out, threaten somebody, we're not sure who yet, and feed Obama microwave food when he visits Ankara;
2. stop showing Bonanza on our tv stations (all the villains are Armenians from Fresno;
3. stop offering "free" tea at the Bazaar to dumb tourists looking to corner the market on old Sarouks.
4. never use the definite article in speech or writing.
- The Turkish grammar avengers
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#302
Monday Dec 8
Part 7 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. There are so many holes in the fake Armenian thesis, arising from the fact that the latter was always accepted at face value, without scrutiny, that I can list these questions effortlessly.
The Armenians resort to ridicule, insults, slanders, threats, and other evasive tactics like answering only questions of their own design, but can never answer these questions.
Here are more of those questions you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face while pounding your kitchen table with his shoe:
29 - Isn’t it a fact that most of the Armenian allegations were proven to be exaggerations, embellishments, distortions, fabrications and/or fraud? Aren’t some celebrated examples of bogus Armenian claims include the infamous Hitler quote, the skull-pyramid photo, the Talaat telegrams, the Andonian files, Musa Dagh episode, Morgenthau’s ghost writers, 1.5 million casualty figure, population statistics, causes, and more? Is it right to treat these unchallenged and baseless Armenian claims as “facts”?
30- Can you appreciate the difference between “allegations” and “judgments”? Isn’t it true that while anyone can make any claim, only judgments are filtered through the “due process” by careful and orderly cross-examination of factual, relevant input? Have the Armenians ever won a court case authorizing them to use the term genocide? How can they endlessly benefit from a nonexistent “judgment” of genocide?
31- Are you aware that 127 leading non-governmental organizations in Turkey recently suggested to the Republic of Armenia to take the Republic of Turkey to the International Court of Justice in the Hague, Netherlands? I agree with those NGOs as it makes a lot of sense to me. Since Armenians seem to have many books, films, exhibitions, witnesses and more, they should have no problems having Turkey convicted. So, what are the Armenians waiting for? Is it because the Turkish archives would be opened for all to see in such a court and Turkish views would be heard perhaps for the first time for most?
32- Are you having fun? I know I am. See how the Armenian falsifiers cannot let go? They stick to me like flies to a street lamp at night. That tells me, despite their ridicule, insults, slander, threats, evasive acts, nonchalant facades, they are really WORRIED! WORRIED SICK! After all, what if Americans wake up to Armenian deception? What if Americans start saying:“Look, if this one guy can gush out all these reasonable questions so effortlessly, can you imagine what all those Turkish researchers, scholar, historian, archivists can do? Are the Armenian claims of genocide really that hollow? Are they like Swiss cheese that you can drive trucks through? Now do you understand why the Armenians prefer political resolutions and public relations over taking Turkey to International Court of Justice to get a genocide verdict? After all, if the Armenian case is so slam-dunk, what do the Armenians have to worry about?
Peace,
Ergun Kirlikovali, Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides, www.turkla.com
PS: MY PLEDGE: Every time the Armenian falsifiers post a message, I pledge to you, open-minded truth-seekers, that I shall add one or more questions to this list for you to ask those genocide crowds.
jda
San Francisco, CA
#303
Monday Dec 8
Airgun, Airgun,
You're shooting blanks.
Here's some medz news:
1. I am not a representative of any Armenians. I'm not a Tashnag, a Hunchak, or even a Republican. I don't get the secret emails with the specially varnished talking points and recipes. Apart from Hilary's.
I'm an American. My major current link to Armenians is the cuisine. Truth be told, I like the rugs too. OK, the dancing girls are pretty as well. Unlike you, I'm not scouring the internet for the unbearable fact that someone out there might disagree with me.
And I sure as Hell am not publishing articles, readable or otherwise in non-existent e-magazines like "Armenian journal", "Armenian Forum" or the "Grumpy middle aged Armenian".
Even though your family comes from the Balkans, which I bet is sort of a Turkish Hillbilly backwater in the eyes of more Establishmentarian Turks, you seem to have glommed onto some inexplicable Imperial attitudes which we don't much use in America - such as "it is illegitimate and racist" for one to disagree with my opinion.
You need a pet. I think a cat will humble you. Try not to make it the white Van Armenian swimming cat, though, they are all falsifiers at heart.
2. You say I can't bear this or that. What I mostly can't bear (besides poor grammar and usage) is a guy who takes the word of former Turkish Historical Society Chair Yusuf Halacaglu (that's as good as I'm gonna get on the spelling of that or pretty much any other name) or anyone else, pro or anti Genocide or anything else as Gospel. Here, in the bigs, we try to think for ourselves. I am sure you'll get the hang of it in 5 or 6 more lifetimes.
3. What is it with you and comapring Armenians to flies, musca domesticus, or platypezidae callowtarsus?
First, you make the world's most insulting, not to mention hard-to-follow "joke" comapring the Armenian dead to a dead fly, post 173,as I recall,[by the way, I think Goebbels liked Jewish-vermin allusions, too, haven't checked Zia, Nazim or Gokalp, though] now you talk about flies drawn to a lampost, as being like Armenians who argue there was a Genocide.
What member of the animal kingdom do you like for Ferguson, Lifton, Quaetaert, Bloxham, and the other non-Armenian members of the Academy who think there was a Genocide?
4. Here's the kicker: nobody is reading these messages except us. Nobody cares. Persons interested in the Genocide issue are not avidly following these exchanges in lieu of Oxford Debates or even Hasty Pudding presentations. You do need a pet.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#304
Tuesday Dec 9
Part 8 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. There are so many holes in the fake Armenian thesis, arising from the fact that the latter was always accepted at face value, without scrutiny, that I can list these questions effortlessly. The Armenians resort to ridicule, insults, slanders, threats, and other evasive tactics like answering only questions of their own design, but can never answer these questions.
Here are more of those questions you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face while pounding your kitchen table with his shoe:
33- Are you aware that the Republic of Turkey made an official offer in 2005 to the Republic of Armenia to establish a joint committee of historians and to open all the archives, so that this matter can be studied based on facts and figures, not propaganda and hearsay? Do you know that Turkey’s archives are open, but Armenia’s, the Armenian churches’(Etchimiadzin, Beirut, Jerusalem, Istanbul, Mekhitarists, Boston, etc.) and the Armenian Diaspora’s (Boston, Glendale, etc.) are not ? Do you know that Prime Minister Erdogan said the Turkish side would accept the outcome of such a competent research committee, regardless of which way the final verdict goes: genocide or civil war. So what are the Armenians waiting for?
Since they are so convinced, that their genocide claims are slam-dunk, why not say yes to this investigation committee?
Why not nail the Turkswith a court verdict, once and for all? Why all this hype, propaganda, political resolutions, public relations, media frenzy?
Why the only address that really counts: The International Court of Justice?
34 - Are you aware that the British refused to use the Armenian sources and their embellished tales in their Malta Trials (1919-1921)?
Do you know that the Armenians filed all the documents you now speak of, although mostly hearsay and accusations, with the court clerk when the British imprisoned the Ottoman leadership to investigate the Armenian charges?
Do you also know that the British had to let the Ottoman leaders go free, without filing a single charge?
Since the British enjoyed full access to Morgenthau and his ghost-written book, Toynbee’s book, all the press reports, diplomates’ reports, missionaries’ reports, and all the Armenians leaders (church or lay) and still chose not to use any of them –as they knew the difference between wartime propaganda and solid facts that can withstand court scrutiny—shouldn’t “The Malta Tribunal that never was” be the end of all Armenian allegations forever?(Then again, you don’t know the Armenians!)
35 - Don’t partisan presentations such as those of the Armenian falsifiers’ above deliberately distort the truth, deepen divisions and polarizations among Americans of differing heritage (ie Turks, Azeris, Armenians, and others) and prevent approaches to a just and lasting peace?
Peace,
Ergun Kirlikovali, Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides, www.turkla.com
PS: MY PLEDGE: Every time the Armenian falsifiers post a message, I pledge to you, open-minded truth-seekers, that I shall
jda
San Francisco, CA
#305
Tuesday Dec 9
did I falsify by calling it the Armenian Van cat, or the swimming cat?
You be the boss.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#306
Tuesday Dec 9
Part 9 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. There are so many holes in the fake Armenian thesis, arising from the fact that the latter was always accepted at face value, without scrutiny, that I can list these questions effortlessly.
The Armenians resort to ridicule, insults, slanders, threats, and other evasive tactics like answering only questions of their own design, but can never answer these questions.
Here are more of those questions you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face while pounding your kitchen table with his shoe:
36- Isn't it ironic, that we have bombed Yugoslavia punish the Serbians for ethnic cleansing (1995 & 1998); we have fought Saddam first for aggression into a neighboring country (Kuwait, 1991) and then again for supporting international terrorism (2003;); but we rewarded with U.S. aid when Armenia, a Christian “terrorist country”, which committed ALL THREE of these crimes?
Didn’t Armenia conduct aggression and ethnic cleansing in Azerbaijan since 1992 causing more than one million Azeri refugees to leave their home at gun point?
Didn’t Armenia support international terrorism from 1970s to present causing the murder of 70+innocent Turkish diplomats and bystanders worldwide?
Isn’t this a double standard on the part of the successive U.S. governments?
Isn’t this hypocrisy on the part of the Armenians who claim ethnic cleansing by being forced from their homes 100 years ago and yet apply the same to Azeri people since 1992?
If Turks were so wrong then, how can Armenia be so right today?
Besides, Turks in 1915 did not start the war, did not fire the first shot, and took wartime home security measures against a treasonous segment of the society. Armenia, on the other hand, attacked a neighbor, started a war (again), and drove Azeri citizens out of their homes at gun point just to annex more land, neighbor’s land, to Armenia. How can the Turks be wrong then and Armenians be right now?
How come we never hear about Armenian aggressions, terrorism, and ethnic cleansing in Azerbaijan still unfolding as you read these lines?
37- Armenians keep saying that they “believe” it was a genocide. Since when history has become a matter of “belief”? Isn’t history supposed to be a matter of “scholarship”, as in research, peer review, and debate?
38 - Was it genocide or wartime tragedy? If Armenians resorted to terrorism, armed uprisings, and outright treason, and Turks responded to the serious home security threats with a wartime measure of temporary resettlement, wouldn’t it make it a civil war?
Peace,
Ergun Kirlikovali, Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides, www.turkla.com
PS: Here is my pledge to all truth-seekers: Every time the Armenian falsifiers post a message here, I shall add one or more questions to this list for you to ask those genocide crowds.
jda
San Francisco, CA
#307
Tuesday Dec 9
How did "Armenia" invade, collaborate or commit treason when "Armenia" did not exist except for a few months two years after WWI?
Dear open minded truth seekers,
What role did Turkish Ambassador Ertugun have in threatening MGM in 1939 that if it made Werfel's "The 40 Days of Musa Dagh" concerning the smart and heroic resistance of 5,000 Armenian villagers to the whole, entire, bloated, well-equipped Turkish Army?
Answer: He told them they would never distribute another movie in Turkey. They backed off.
Question: why is the Turkish government often telling Americans, including our Congress, what they can and cannot say?
Answer: They are terrified that if the Congress enacts the non binding Genocide resolution, the Kurds will break off, all the crypto Armenain Alewis will rise up, and they won 't be able to get Coke Zero anymore. Beats me. Turkey and Russia do business, and Russia found it was Genocide.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#309
Wednesday Dec 10
Part 10 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenian writers cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know their answers will refute their own baseless allegations.
Instead, the Armenian writers resort to ridicule, insults, slander, intimidation, and even threats as you can clearly see time after time in this blog alone. They are extremely irritated by the questions listed here but there is nothing they can do, other than concoct some misleading and irrelevant questions and respond to them to save face. But, don't worry, I will not let that insignificant detail stop me from telling the other side of the story.
Here are some more of those question you may wish to ask the next person who screams in your face and demands that you acknowledge his unproven claim of genocide while pounding his shoe on your kitchen table:
35- What is Mosin? How does this tiny word have the power to literally dismantle the Armenian claims of sole victimhood?
36- What is Gaflan? How does this tiny word have the power to prove Armenian aggression, ethnic cleansing, and persecution of unarmed, noncombatant civilians?
37- What is Mosin-Gaflan line of thought? What does it indicate? Can it be documented? Can Armenian war crimes (then and now) be proven beyond a shadow of doubt at a court of law?
I am getting warmed up, so stay tuned...
Ergun Kirlikovali, Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides, www.turkla.com
PS: Here is my pledge to open-minded truth-seekers: Every time an Armenian falsifiers posts a message, I shall add one or more questions to this list for you to ask those genocide crowds. After all, too many unanswerable questions can only lead to the total collapse of bogus Armenian claims
John
Upland, CA
#310
Wednesday Dec 10
Lord! You people write term papers in here! Get a life!!!!!
jda
San Francisco, CA
#311
Wednesday Dec 10
Ergun,
Your homogenization of scholarship has spurred me to read more of Lewy.
He derides the demographer McCarthy's work, and rejects the vague claim you parrot that those who died while being deported could also be part of a "warring faction". Unlike you, he understands that women and children under guard are different from armed rebels. One doesn't kill the former because of fear of the latter.
You say that 8,000 Armenian civilians died in feuds. Do your perfect Ottoman records explain what feud dead babies were a part of?
Moreover, the only alleged armed uprising by some Armenians before April 24, 1915 occurred a few days earlier at Van. They were reliably informed the TA was marching on them. I don't excuse any civilian murders they committed, but its hardly a suitable reason to exterminate a race.
For his part, the non Ottomanist demographer McCarthy admits that at least 600,000 Armenians died while being deported. About one order of magnitude greater than what you parrot as the Armenian dead.
Maybe you can get the number down to 15 by Christmas.
Also looked at David Gaunt's scholarship on the Assyrian Genocide. Hardly an Armo guy. Born here, teaches in Sweden. Convince somebody he made it all up to do the Armos a favor. Like I said, ask any Assyrian.
By the way, didn't Turkey mess up the graves that both Sarafian and Gaunt were asked to inspect? I wonder why.
Do you ever actuallly read what the denialist scholars write, or do you just use talking points developed by some algorithm?
Lastly, take a look at what Lewy says the Turkish government has been doing since at least 1934 to suppress American speech. Even he admits Ertegun's efforts to prevent the 40 Days from being filmed here.
I wasn't much in favor of Obama and Congress recognizing the Genocide, but if it will expose the driverl you post here and in various e-mags,maybe its worth it. You seriously harm your own side by what you write.
But, maybe you want Congress to enact the Resolution and see Turkey turn inwards. Maybe you don't really want Turkey in the EU.
gottawonder
Los Angeles, CA
#312
Wednesday
John wrote:
Lord! You people write term papers in here! Get a life!!!!!
it's cut and paste
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#313
Thursday
Part 10 of 999
Explanation 1 of 2
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
Today, I shall take a happy mini-detour to expose a falsifier on his own distortions. This is one of those “A-ha!� moments and I thank one of the most virulent Armenian propagandists who writes here, trying hard not to answer my questions.
His words, not mine :“… Moreover, the only alleged armed uprising by some Armenians before April 24, 1915 occurred a few days earlier at Van…�
“Alleged�?
May I offer , for your reading pleasure, this 300+ page fantastic book on the many Armenian uprisings where you can read, page after page, chapter after chapter, of Armenian atrocities victimizing unarmed, noncombatant civilian Muslims of Van:“The Armenian Rebellion at Van,� Justin McCarthy, Esat Arslan, Cemaletting Taskiran, Omer Turan (The University of Utah Press, Salt lake City, USA, 2006)
Then this Armenian falsifier has the audacity to say “the only� uprising, right?
It is unfortunate for him that my question number 35 was dealing directly with Armenian uprisings. He missed it because he never heard the word Mosin. He missed it because Mosin is a symbol of sorts for the many Armenian uprisings. He missed it because he was ignorant. Now, let’s what he, and most if not all Armenians do not know about their own history.
I shall now show here how this single word, Mosin, undermines the entire Armenian claim to sole victimhood and how it demolishes the “poor, starving Armenian� misrepresentation. After all, they were neither poor nor starving until they decided to use their “Mosins� on Turks and other Muslims, staging bloody rebellions and terror campaigns, all in order to establish Greater Armenian on Turkish soil.
Look what “Houshamatyan of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, Centennial, Album-Atlas, Volume I, Epic Battles, 1890-1914�(The Next Day Color Printing, Inc., Glendale, CA, U.S.A., 2006) says on page 30:
“…While the founding fathers of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation were advocating the party ideology, freedom fighters were already waging epic battles for freedom…�
Epic battles? Armenians just cannot seem to decide whether they are “poor, starving souls� or “fighters waging epic battles�. You are either one or the other, right? You cannot have the cake and eat it too, correct?
Let’s continue reading page 30:
“The Armenian ‘fedayee’ movement began with the martyrdom of Arabo and other freedom fighters. The fedayees were the Armenian fighters who sacrificed themselves for their people and fatherland.�
Mmmm. This sounds more like “insurgents fighting for independence� rather than “poor, starving Armenians� to me.
What do you think, open-minded truth-seeker?
Let’s continue reading page 30:
“This movement, became and obsession, even a disease, for many men.�
Obsession? Like what this Armenian falsifier screaming genocide in your face has?
Disease? Like this Armenian falsifier with a poison pen might have?
Many men? Just how many exactly ?(I know the answer, I bet the Armenian falsifier has no idea. After all, they don’t teach such self-incriminatory facts to Armenian children.)
Ergun Kirlikovali, Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides, www.turkla.com
PS: Here is my pledge to open-minded truth-seekers: Every time an Armenian falsifier posts a message, I shall add one or more questions to this list for you to ask those genocide crowds. After all, too many unanswerable questions can only lead to the total collapse of bogus Armenian claims.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#314
Thursday
Part 10 of 999
Explanation 1 of 2
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
Today, I shall take a happy mini-detour to expose a falsifier on his own distortions.
This is one of those A-ha! moments and I thank one of the most virulent Armenian propagandists who writes here, trying hard not to answer my questions.
His words, not mine :
… Moreover, the only alleged armed uprising by some Armenians before April 24, 1915 occurred a few days earlier at Van…
Alleged?
May I offer , for your reading pleasure, this 300+ page fantastic book on the many Armenian uprisings where you can read, page after page, chapter after chapter, of Armenian atrocities victimizing unarmed, noncombatant civilian Muslims of Van:
The Armenian Rebellion at Van, Justin McCarthy, Esat Arslan, Cemaletting Taskiran, Omer Turan (The University of Utah Press, Salt lake City, USA, 2006)
Then this Armenian falsifier has the audacity to say THE ONLY uprising, right?
It is unfortunate for him that my question number 35 was dealing directly with Armenian uprisings. He missed it because he never heard the word Mosin. He missed it because Mosin is a symbol of sorts for the many Armenian uprisings. He missed it because he was ignorant. Now, let’s what he, and most if not all Armenians do not know about their own history.
I shall now show how this single word, Mosin, undermines the entire Armenian claim to sole victimhood and how it demolishes the poor, starving Armenian misrepresentation.
After all, they were neither poor nor starving until they decided to use their Mosins on Turks and other Muslims, staging bloody rebellions and terror campaigns, all in order to establish Greater Armenian on Turkish soil.
Look what HOUSHAMATYAN OF THE ARMENIAN REVOLUTIONARY FEDERATION, Centennial, Album-Atlas, Volume I, EPIC BATTLES, 1890-1914”(The Next Day Color Printing, Inc., Glendale, CA, U.S.A., 2006) says on page 30:
…While the founding fathers of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation were advocating the party ideology, freedom fighters were already waging epic battles for freedom…
Epic battles?
Armenians just cannot seem to decide whether they are POOR, STARVING SOULS or FIGHTERS WAGING EPIC BATTLES. You are either one or the other, right? You cannot have the cake and eat it, too, correct?
Let’s continue reading page 30:
…The Armenian FEDAYEE movement began with the martyrdom of Arabo and other freedom fighters. The fedayees were the Armenian fighters who sacrificed themselves for their people and fatherland…
Mmmm. This sounds more like INSURGENTS FIGHTING FOR INDEPENDENCE rather than poor, starving Armenians, to me.
What do you think, open-minded truth-seeker?
Let’s continue reading page 30:
…This movement, became and obsession, even a disease, for many men…
Obsession?
Like what this Armenian falsifier screaming genocide in your face has?
Disease?
Like this Armenian falsifier with a poison pen might have?
Many men?
Just how many exactly ?(I know the answer, I bet the Armenian falsifier has no idea. After all, they don’t teach such self-incriminatory facts to Armenian children.)
Ergun Kirlikovali, Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides, www.turkla.com
PS: Here is my pledge to open-minded truth-seekers: Every time an Armenian falsifier posts a message, I shall add one or more questions to this list for you to ask those genocide crowds. After all, too many unanswerable questions can only lead to the total collapse of bogus Armenian claims.
Part 10 of 999
Explanation 2 of 2
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
Let’s carry on dismantling Armenian myths, shall we?
Let’s continue reading page 30 of the book, HOUSHAMATYAN OF THE ARMENIAN REVOLUTIONARY FEDERATION, Centennial, Album-Atlas, Volume I, Epic Battles, 1890-1914 (The Next Day Color Printing, Inc., Glendale, CA, U.S.A., 2006 :)
…The ‘raya’, or oppressed Armenians, also learned how to bear arms in order defend their lives, honor, land, and country…
If Armenians learned how to bear arms and use them, then it is no longer poor, starving Armenian myth, is it?
Isn’t it obvious that these were well armed fighting man? Here it is, directly from the horse’s mouth… What genocide?
Now, for the clincher, let’s go to page 241:
…Beginning in 1893, the fedayees began to use Russian ‘Mosin’ rifles…
...The distance that a bullet could travel when shot from a “Mosin” rifle was 2,700 meters, while the ‘Martin’,‘Ghapakli’, and ‘Berdan’ rifles that the Turks and Kurds used could reach only 1,200…
...Mosin rifles were short. They made a sharp sound and produced no smoke, while the other rifles roared and produced smoke that betrayed the location of the shooter...
...A group of 20 to 25 fedayees was able to resist the attack of hundred of Kurds and Turks with these rifles…
...
Those Mosins killed my people, Turks, Kurds, and other Muslims, by hundreds of thousands.
And those Armenians armed with Mosins were no poor, starving Armenians as deceptively promoted.
They were vicious killers bent on creating a greater Armenia on Turkish soil.
They were using Armenian women and children where they had to, as human shield, to cover their despicable terror acts or to escape retribution from relatives of the Muslim victims.
What was happening there was no genocide; it was clearly a civil war.
See how ignorant Armenian activists really are?
They don’t even know what Mosin is…
Then they write incredible lies like “the only alleged” uprising…
Anyway, tomorrow, I shall teach these ignoramuses the term “Gaflan”.
See if they will be able to claim anything less than being the neo-Nazis of today after learning the meaning of “Gaflan”.
I am getting warmed up, so please stay tuned...
Isn’t this fun?
Ergun Kirlikovali, Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides, www.turkla.com
PS: Here is my pledge to open-minded truth-seekers: Every time an Armenian falsifier posts a message, I shall add one or more questions to this list for you to ask those genocide crowds. After all, too many unanswerable questions can only lead to the total collapse of bogus Armenian claims
jda
San Francisco, CA
#316
Thursday
dingbatus horribilis
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#317
Thursday
Do you now know what Mosin is, Mr. Ignoramus?
jda
San Francisco, CA
#318
Thursday
I just have a hunch you'll tell me, so go right ahead.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#319
Thursday
I just did. In the two segments above (messages 314 & 315.)
Jda
Los Angeles, CA
#320
Friday
so let me see if I can piece together this latest krazy kat logic.
If fedayee used mosin or heinlich maneuver or Winchester repeating rifles with bows and arrows, that proves CUP state actors did not kill or starve their mothers or daughters.
Even in a cartoon land where the coyote stays airborn indefinitely, this doesn't disprove genocide or the starvation during the genocide.
See, airboat, when civilians are under state control, it's genocide for the state to kill or allow them to be killed.
In Kosovo, Rwanda and Sudan the governments all trotted out the same arguments. That the men were killing government troops or even civilians. Even the Gerrmans claimed the right to kill Jews and Slavs for the same reasons.
It just doesn't matter- you can't kill civilians
Ask any international or military lawyer
Jda
Diamond Bar, CA
#321
Friday
I guess you don't believe in self defense - the material you quote says that 30 years before the Genocide fedayee defended themselves from Turks and "my people" the Kurds. Do the Kurds count you as a native son? I thought you were busy being a Greek-Balkan -Turk , now you're Anatolian. Judging by your picture you look like a Swiss accountant who overdoes the spartzle at das salad bar.
But if you want to play Anatolian dress up, swell
Jda
Valley Springs, CA
#322
Friday
by the way, is that an official Talaat combover?
jda
San Mateo, CA
#323
Friday
Ergun,
Your ahistory, ignorance and illogic, not to mention racist remarks, are the only things in this exchange which dishonor your ethnicity, whatever that might be.
You don't even know what denialists say.
You've created quite a record here and there.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA
#324
Friday
Part 10 of 999
Explanation 3 of 6
WHAT IS GAFLAN?
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
Today, I shall continue our happy little detour to expose a falsifier. You saw haw irrelevant and off-the-mark remarks he had the “Mosin”. Did he miss the point because he is stupid? No, he deliberately missed the point to mislead you, because that’s what Armenian falsifiers do.
The Armenians organized themsleves into illegal terror bands; armed themselves with Mosins; shot and killed their Turkish and Kurdish neighbors; hid behind their “women and children” during investigations or retaliations; and when the civil war got to a stage where you could no longer distinguish good Armenians from bad, loyal ones from treasonous ones, Tereset had to be enacted (temporary resettlement) only effecting those Armenian communities that were openly and actively involved in terrorism, rebellions, and treason.
Then these Armenian falsifiers started crying:“But what about the Armenian women and children?”
Were those Armenian women and children in your hearts or minds when you committed your dastardly acts of terror on Turkish or Kurdish women and children? Why did you take cover among the women and children after you exploded your bombs in the Turkish neighborhoods? Why did you hide behind your women and children to use them as human shields when the Ottoman Home Security forces arrived to arrest you? Why did you shoot your bullets behind your women and children? Is this how much you think of and care for your women and children? Do Armenian fedayees see their women and children as no more than human shields?
Fedayees and other Armenians started a civil war they could not possibly win (as Armenia’s first PM , Katchaznouni, so correctly pointed out) and when the Armenians lost, they cried genocide. As the saying goes, fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.
Explanation 4 of 6
WHAT IS GAFLAN?
I will list here the raids, rebellions, assassinations, treasonous activities of the Armenians one by one, some even including names of Armenians priests, yes men of God toting and using lethal weapons, the arms and terrorists smuggling routes, dates, places, names, and so much more, that Armenian falsifiers will be finally reduced to just insulting, slandering, threatening, and/or ridiculing me, as they cannot possibly remark on these heinous Armenian war crimes they wish no one knew.
But before that, please let me introduce another concept with even worse connotations than Mosin: Gaflan.
To answer this question, let's first fast forward to 1992. The Soviet Union has collapsed and new states are formed. Armenia is one them. There is much excitement , confusion, happiness, and fanfare everywhere.
You would think the first thing a newly independent state would do is to secure democracy, human liberties in pursuit of happiness, increased welfare, peace and prosperity for its citizens, right? As in build more schools, factories, roads, bridges, etc? Well, you would be wrong.
You know what the first thing Armenian did? Attack its neighbors! Yes, you read it right: attack the neighbors!
This time, instead of Russian made Mosin rifles, the Armenias had Russian made tanks and Russian military advisors helping them. Azerbaijanis had little or nothing.
This time, instead of Russian made Mosin rifles, the Armenias had Russian made tanks and Russian military advisors helping them. Azerbaijanis had little or nothing.
Armenia first attacked Karabag, deep inside Azerbaijan, a sovereign nation next door. After killing most of the Azeri inhabitants of the region, Armenians waged a bloody campaign of ethnic cleansing of all Azeris in the areas between Karabagh and Armenia. More than a million Azeri folks, women, children, and all, were forced by armed Armenia thugs to leave their homes at gun point. Those refugees are still living in leaky tents since 1992 trying to survive brutal Caucasus winters and scorching summers with little food or medicine.
Explanation 5 of 6
WHAT IS GAFLAN?
While that human tragedy was unfolding, Armenian falsifiers in America, like the one who writes here, blocked the humanitarian aid to Azeri refugees by applying political pressure.
Gaflan is the name given to para-military Armenian thugs whose job it was to burn the corpses of freshly killed non-combatant Azeri civilians, men, women, children, and all, in order not to leave any evidence of pogrom (and genocide claims) behind.
Hitler’s Nazis burned the Jews in gas ovens alive; Gaflan Armenian burned Azeris in wood/coal burning ovens right after Azeris were shot .
The stench was so bad that the Gaflan Armenians were wearing wet towels on their noses to filter the smell. Some were throwing up, others lost their appettite. Small price to pay for the dastardly hate crimes the Armenians committed, wouldn't you say?
Both Hitler’s Nazis and Gaflan Armenians burned their victims;
both Both Hitler’s Nazis and Gaflan Armenians used ovens to do it;
and both Both Hitler’s Nazis and Gaflan Armenians failed to show the slightest signs of remorse, let alone offering any apology, to this very day (the Armenian falsifier who writes here included.)
Explanation 6 of 6
WHAT IS GAFLAN?
Why Gaflan? What is its significance?
Gaflan is the latest link in the chain that is called Greater Armenia, an age old pipe dream that drove Armenians into blood-thirsty animals armed with Russian Mosins (1890-1921) or Russian tanks (1992- to present.)
Greater Armenia is the intent and motive; Mosin and Gaflan are the tools.
Mosin-Gaflan line of thought is the reason why Armenia still demands territories from its neighbors: North-Eastern Anatolia from Turkey; Javakheti region from Georgia; Karabagh and Western Azerbaijan from Azerbaijan; and North-Western tip from Iran.
Don’t take my word for it; just look at the maps racist Armenian newspapers publish (I am sure the Armenian falsifier who writes here has many racist Armenian books and newspapers at his home with the map just described.)
Mosin-Gaflan mentality is the scourge of humanity on a par with genocide, perceived or factual.
Ergun Kirlikovali, Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides, www.turkla.com
PS: Here is my pledge to open-minded truth-seekers: Every time an Armenian falsifier posts a message, I shall add one or more questions to this list for you to ask those genocide crowds. After all, too many unanswerable questions can only lead to the total collapse of bogus Armenian claims.
ChiliHead
Pasadena, CA
#328
Friday
Turks and Armenians are like the people from India and Pakistan. They will never get along.
oompah
San Mateo, CA
#329
Saturday
Latest Armenian Plot Revealed
Dear Truth seekers,
My peeps, the Balkan-Kurdish-Swiss-Turkish-A ccountants have authorized me to reveal to you, neutral minded fair readers, the latest crisis emanating from the evil so called Armenians, Actually, there really are no Armenians, there are just really old brunette Nazis calling themselves that. But please understand, we like Germans.
Ok, so here goes.
Unable to take over Iraq and Afghanistan as they had planned to do under the Flan Plan of the Protocols of the Elders of Plaki,of which I have written, the Armenians are now seeking to take over Gary, Indiana, an important City in the American hertland.
Using money they cheated Turkish-Swiss girl scouts from, the so-called Armenians are opening false Mexican restaurants in Gary, serving Kebaps and Doner they are calling Armenian tacos. The food is irresistable, as you know.
Slowly as they displace the other Mexican restaurants, through predatory pricing, they are forcing the out of work Mexicans (who are actually New World Turks) to join their zombie Army to control Gary. Did you ever notice that "Army" is similar to "Armenian" by the way?
Please, fair minded neutral truth seekers, don't buy Mexican food in Gary, or you will squash the life out of Turkish-Swiss accountants' children.
This proves the Genocide is a myth.
hal doll
San Mateo, CA
#330
Saturday
USA COMMITTED GENOCIDE AGAINST TURKS BECAUSE NATIVE AMERICANS ARE TURKS
NUMBER ONE GENOCIDAL MANIAC TERRORIST AGAINST NATIVE AMERICANS IS JOHN WAYNE, REAL NAME: OHANNES MARION VANINIAN
READ ON, NEUTRAL FAIR MINDED AUDIENCE, PLUS WE DEMAND CASINO MONEY FROM SO ALLED NATIVE AMERICAN IMPOSTERS
ELIF OZMENEK
NEW YORK Turkish Daily News
On a quest to determine whether kinship exists between Turks and Native Americans, a New York-based Turkish group organized a conference last weekend searching for similarities between the two peoples.
The main question at the conference last weekend titled "Commonalities between Turks and Native Americans" dealt with the possibility of American Indians coming from a Turkish bloodline.
The Istanbul University Alumni Association (IUMEZUSA) organized the conference.Although the question might seem absurd to many, participation in the conference was very high.
Over 400 people, including the director of the Eastern Region Bureau of Indian Affairs of the U.S. Department of the Interior attended the conference. The panelists were Brian Paterson, United South and Eastern Tribes & Bear Clan representative to the Oneida Indian Nation's Men's Council and Clan Mothers, Professor Timur Kocaog(lu, visiting scholar at Michigan State University, Professor Türker Özdog(an, George Washington University, Professor Marjorie Mandelstam Balzer, Georgetown University's Anthropology and Archeology of Eurasia Department and Associate Professor Carol Chiago Lujan, Arizona State University's founding director of the American Indian Studies Program.
"This conference was an attempt both to strengthen our relations (as
Turkish Americans) with the American Indians and also to call for
furthering serious academic studies in the related area," said Ali Ç?nar,
the president of IUMEZUSA.
For many years, there were occasional stories related to the commonalities between Turks and Native Americans in the Turkish media. For example language similarities were always portrayed as the strongest link between the two groups' association.It is widely known in Turkey that French linguist Dumesnil found more than 300 Turkish words in native Indian languages: Türe and Töre (Tradition), Yanunda and Yan?nda (Near), At?s, and Ates,(Fire) to name a few.
hal doll
San Mateo, CA
#331
Saturday
CHINA TAKEN FROM TURKS
Evil Chinese nation stole east Turkestan annex from Turks. So called Chinese restaurants must be turned over chop chop.
Genocide of Turkish restaurants continues!
You may not call it "shish kebab" you must call it Turkish kebab.
These problems much huger than a few dead Armenian.
hal doll
San Mateo, CA
#332
Saturday
NOBODY TALSK ABOUT TURKS ENOUGH
What about our weltschmerz, huh?
jda
San Mateo, CA
#333
Saturday
And we're keeping our eye on the Persians, too.
Turks Invent Water
I have fantastic 300 page book, it is true.
Turks give this gift to world free
are we bitchin' or what?
Darren
#335
Saturday
Must suck to have a screwed up view on the world. Such ugly human thoughts on these posts. What hatred for mankind. Whats it like having all this rage and animosity for people you dont even know?
Jda
Winters, CA #336
Saturday Dec 13
Turks invented indoor bowling plus baseball hats
Jda
Fairfield, CA#337
Saturday Dec 13
me like um turkish people
Me like making fun of silly **** statements
By silly ahistoric dude like fella
Siegfried
Reedley, CA#338
Saturday Dec 13
I think the Armos are just satirizing the turkey dude
a final word
San Mateo, CA#339
Sunday Dec 14
Professor Donald Quataert of the State University of New York at Binghamton was one of the signers of the 1989 proclamation that the US Congres should not recognize the Genocide of the Armenians. Some say he was only one of four signers who might be classified as an Ottomanist. He reads Ottoman, a combination of Arabic, Farsi and old Turkish script. The demographer McCarthy, and the retired professor of politcal science Lewy do not.
Neither an Armenian nor a Turk, his scholarship has recognized the mounting evidence of Genocide, a conclusion with which he agrees.
In his Colllege Text, "The Ottoman Empire 1700-1922" Cambridge University Press (2005) at page 187 he writes:
"...[t]here is abundant evidence that low and high Ottoman officers, soldiers and bureaucrats - the very persons who had sworn responsibility to defend and protect the lives of Ottoman subjects regard;less of religion or ethnicity - murdered vast numbers of Armenian men, women and children alike. Moreover the pattern of killings were chillingly similar in the various areas, powerfully suggesting the presence of a coordinated program.
I recommend you google his book to verify. Also, google his name to see how the Turkish ambassador asked him to renounce his Genocide conclusion imn the review of Bloxham's book in 2006, lest he lose his position on a Turkish-funded group of scholars.
Of course, he will try something.
tsk tsk
San Mateo, CA#340
Sunday Dec 14
Ergun,
The issue of whether Genocide occurred is settled.
Keep screaming
more on Professor Q
San Mateo, CA#341
Sunday Dec 14
The Institute of Turkish Studies is led by a board, primarily made up of scholars of Turkey, only a few of whom have focused on issues related to what happened to the Armenians. Even those who question the way Turkey has responded to the genocide issue say that much of the work supported by the institute is important and meets high standards.
Quataert led the institute’s board from 2001 until his controversial departure at the end of 2006.
The dispute started when he published a book review in the Journal of Interdisciplinary History in the fall of 2006. The review, which included both praise and criticism, was of Donald Bloxham’s The Great Game of Genocide: Imperialism, Nationalism and the Destruction of the Ottoman Armenians (Oxford University Press). In the review, Quataert wrote about how when he entered graduate studies in Ottoman history in the late 1960s,“there was an elephant in the room of Ottoman studies—the slaughter of the Ottoman Armenians in 1915.” He wrote that “a heavy aura of self-censorship hung over Ottoman history writing,” excluding not only work on Armenians, but also on religious identity, the Kurds, and labor issues. Only in recent years, he continued, has the “Ottomanist wall of silence” started to crumble.
Quataert noted concerns about the use of the word “genocide,” namely, that discussions of its use or non-use can “degenerate into semantics and deflect scholars from the real task at hand, to understand better the nature of the 1915 events.”
But despite those concerns, he wrote that there is no question today that what took place meets United Nations and other definitions of genocide, and that failure to acknowledge as much is wrong.
more on Professor Q
San Mateo, CA#342
Sunday Dec 14
SORRY TO HAVE MOT ATTRIBUTED THE ABOVE MATERIAL.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#343
Sunday Dec 14
Part 11 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
See how the AFATH (Armenian Falsifiers and Turk-Haters) reacted so predictably to dirty secrets about their past? Ridicule, insults, slander, and even some veiled threats….
Exactly like I wrote in message 325 they would:
“ I will list here the raids, rebellions, assassinations, treasonous activities of the Armenians one by one, some even including names of Armenians priests, yes men of God toting and using lethal weapons, the arms and terrorists smuggling routes, dates, places, names, and so much more, that Armenian falsifiers will be finally reduced to just insulting, slandering, threatening, and/or ridiculing me, as they cannot possibly remark on these heinous Armenian war crimes they wish no one knew.“
I take it that they did not much like being compared to Hitler’s Nazis and human burners. That is exactly what Gaflan Armenians are all about:“forensic cleansing”, as in burning the Azeri women and children shot by Armenian thugs in order not to leave any evidence behind. Good for Azerbaijan, though, that they managed to put together the names and faces of Azeri victims in a book published recently.
Now that our Mosin-Gaflan detour exposing Armenian war crimes is complete, for now, let us go back to my pledge of adding one or more questions to this list for you, open-minded truth-seekers, to ask those genocide crowds, every time an Armenian falsifier posts a message here. After all, too many unanswerable questions can only lead to the total collapse of bogus Armenian claims.
38- Did not the Malta Tribunals of 1919-1921 by the British, abandoned due to lack of evidence, prove that today’s Armenian allegations of genocide are nothing more than an afterthought, a new spin on an old event, and a political maneuver?
39- How come we heard nothing about the Turkish suffering caused by the Armenian nationalists like the Dashnaks, the Hunchaks, the Armenakan, the Ramgavar, and others? Weren’t the Turkish losses at least four times heavier than Armenian losses?
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
PS: Here is my pledge to open-minded truth-seekers: Every time an Armenian falsifier posts a message, I shall add one or more questions to this list for you to ask those genocide crowds. After all, too many unanswerable questions can only lead to the total collapse of bogus Armenian claims.
jda
San Francisco, CA#344
Sunday Dec 14
but what about Professor Q, about whom we can all speak without any name-calling.
Siegfried
Redondo Beach, CA#345
Sunday Dec 14
Ergot,
Why is professor Q wrong?
Mathematician
Los Angeles, CA#346
Monday Dec 15
Turkish > Armenians
Armenians + Armenians = Welfare Fraud
USA - Armenians = Peace and Prosperity
gottawonder
Los Angeles, CA#347
Monday Dec 15
sure thing everybody believes the islamists.... sure. and supposedly you think homosex is a sin or some sht? and yet you rejoice in mutual masturbation?
historian
San Mateo, CA#348
Monday Dec 15
EG,
It is well known that some of those who benefitted from the Armenian Genocide were Balkan Turks, who often were resettled permanently in their homes and on their properties throughout Anatolia. Some resettled mujahars from the Balkans also were cited by neutrals for having killed Armenian civilians with great gusto, perhaps thinking they were avenging what Balkan Christians had done to them. Even a few of the Turkish Army officers were repelled. They liked to kill on a more leisurely schedule.
Do you know of any Balkan Turks who received Armenian property?
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#349
Monday Dec 15
Part 11 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
Questions continue pouring out and there is no end in sight…
Please feel free to confront those loud Armenian falsifiers who arrogantly barge into your life and scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table:
“Enough is enough! Now answer the following questions (and,while at it, the previous ones.)”
40- As the prominent Turkish Historian Halacoglu recently said,“Crying makes poor history.” Isn’t it a fact that my grandparents can’t cry on TV today, like those Armenian survivors, because the Armenians and Greeks killed them in Anatolia between 1911-1922 ?
41- It is well documented that until May 2, 1915, the date of the telegraph by Enver Pasha from the Russian front to Talaat Pasha in Istanbul, there was not even talk of TERESET (temporary resettlement;); so how can it be genocide if there is no intent of killing Armenians? How could it have started on April 24 if the Tereset order was passed on May 27, 1915 and the first Armenian group was moved first week of June? Isn’t it obvious that Tereset was in response to Armenian war crimes and a home security measure?
42- Isn’t New York Times guilty of censoring Turkish views? Didn’t NYT publish 145 anti-Turkish stories in 1915 with zero rebuttals, refutations, or challenges allowed for Turks? Is this the fair and balanced coverage the Armenians are basing their allegations on?
43- Aren’t Armenian allegations of genocide are dishonest history because they ignore Armenian terror, rebellions, and treason and the resulting Turkish suffering? Isn’t anyone who ignores the 6T’s of the T-A conflict, including Prof. Q., a member of the AFATH community, a term which include non-Armenians?
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
PS: Here is my pledge to open-minded truth-seekers: Every time an Armenian falsifier posts a message, I shall add one or more questions to this list for you to ask those genocide crowds. After all, too many unanswerable questions can only lead to the total collapse of bogus Armenian claims.
jda
San Francisco, CA#350
Monday Dec 15
Not screaming, just asking:
EK,
It is well known that some of those who benefitted from the Armenian Genocide were Balkan Turks, who often were resettled permanently in their homes and on their properties throughout Anatolia. Some resettled mujahars from the Balkans also were cited by neutrals for having killed Armenian civilians with great gusto, perhaps thinking they were avenging what Balkan Christians had done to them. Even a few of the Turkish Army officers were repelled. They liked to kill on a more leisurely schedule.
Do you know of any Balkan Turks who received Armenian property?
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#351
Monday Dec 15
Part 12 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
Questions continue pouring out and there is no end in sight…
Please confront those loud Armenian falsifiers who barge into your life and scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table:“Enough is enough! Now answer the following questions (and the previous ones, while at it.)”
44- Why do Armenian falsifiers always mention denial by the Turkish government when you know we, the Turkish-Americans, are not the Turkish government and we also categorically reject the Armenian claims of genocide? Why this Armenian effort to mislead the public?
45- Do you know the first of THE SIX APOLOGIES the Turks have been waiting for since the end of WWI? Do you know it is from Britain and for the wartime propaganda in the “Blue Book” on which today’s genocide claims are built? And for naval blockade of food supplies Anatolia which exacerbated the already wide scale starvation among the Ottoman, Turks, Armenians, and others? And, finally, for raining death and destruction on our grandparents’ in their homes?
46- Did you know that Boghos Nubar Pasha, the Armenian leader, said in a published letter that Armenians Were de-facto belligerents during WWI ? That the Armenians established armies 150,000 men strong? Doesn’t this alone prove that it was a civil war? Do these How many Turks did those Armenian armies kill? Why no one is asking this most important question to expose the bogus genocide claims?
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
PS: Here is my pledge to open-minded truth-seekers: Every time an Armenian falsifier posts a message, I shall add one or more questions to this list for you to ask those genocide crowds. After all, too many unanswerable questions can only lead to the total collapse of bogus Armenian claims.
reader
San Francisco, CA#352
Monday Dec 15
the latest from fantasy Ergun Island:
"40- As the prominent Turkish Historian Halacoglu recently said,“Crying makes poor history.” Isn’t it a fact that my grandparents can’t cry on TV today, like those Armenian survivors, because the Armenians and Greeks killed them in Anatolia between 1911-1922'
Errror-gun,
You said before your grandparents were exiled or harmed in the Balkans, so let's review geography. How did they get to Anatolia if they died in the Balkans?
This mysterious "now we're Balkan, now we're Anatolian, with genetic detours for Kurds, Turks, Greeks et al", make me think you're really an eight year old Swiss kid with a laptop.
These are two different areas, you know.
By the way, how did Armenians and Greeks cause your Balkan grandparents to die for 11 years? Oh, I get it, poetic license. AKA B.S.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#353
Monday Dec 15
Part 13 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
Questions continue pouring out and there is no end in sight…
Please confront those loud Armenian falsifiers who barge into your life and scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table:“Enough is enough! Now answer the following questions (and the previous ones, while at it.)”
47- Do you know the first of THE SIX APOLOGIES the Turks have been waiting for since the end of WWI? Do you know it is from Britain and for the wartime propaganda in the “Blue Book” on which today’s genocide claims are built? And for naval blockade of food supplies Anatolia which exacerbated the already wide scale starvation among the Ottoman, Turks, Armenians, and others? And, finally, for raining death and destruction on our grandparents’ in their homes?
48- Did you know that Boghos Nubar Pasha, the Armenian leader, said in a published letter that Armenians Were de-facto belligerents during WWI ? That the Armenians established armies 150,000 men strong? Doesn’t this alone prove that it was a civil war? Do these How many Turks did those Armenian armies kill? Why no one is asking this most important question to expose the bogus genocide claims?
49- Do you know the second of THE SIX APOLOGIES TURKS HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR since the end of WWI which is for France to apologize for the wartime propaganda in the “Yellow Books” and for raining death and destruction on our grandparents’ in Anatolia? Did you know that the French used Ottoman-Armenians under French uniform to cut down Ottoman-Muslims, mostly Turkish? Did you know that those Armenians were trained to kill by both the French and the British (British bases in Cyprus, Alexandria, Egypt, and others?)
50- Do you know the third of THE SIX APOLOGIES TURKS HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR since the end of WWI which is for Russia to apologize for destroying nearly a millennium of harmonious Turkish-Armenian co-habitation in Anatolia? And also for using Armenians to kill their Muslim neighbors in Eastern Anatolia, Erzurum, Bitlis, Sasoon,and many locations in the the Kars-Van-Mus triangle.?_
51 - Do you know the fourth of THE SIX APOLOGIES TURKS HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR since the end of WWI which is for the Protestant Missionaries sent from Boston to apologize for dividing, polarizing, and causing mutual killings and thus destroying a millennium of harmonious Turkish-Armenian co-habitation in Anatolia ?
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
PS: Here is my pledge to open-minded truth-seekers: Every time an Armenian falsifier posts a message, I shall add one or more questions to this list for you to ask those genocide crowds. After all, too many unanswerable questions can only lead to the total collapse of bogus Armenian claims.
reader
San Francisco, CA#354
Monday Dec 15
the latest from fantasy Ergun Island:
"40- As the prominent Turkish Historian Halacoglu recently said,“Crying makes poor history.” Isn’t it a fact that my grandparents can’t cry on TV today, like those Armenian survivors, because the Armenians and Greeks killed them in Anatolia between 1911-1922'
Errror-gun,
You said before your grandparents were exiled or harmed in the Balkans, so let's review geography. How did they get to Anatolia if they died in the Balkans?
This mysterious "now we're Balkan, now we're Anatolian, with genetic detours for Kurds, Turks, Greeks et al", make me think you're really an eight year old Swiss kid with a laptop.
These are two different areas, you know.
By the way, how did Armenians and Greeks cause your Balkan grandparents to die for 11 years? Oh, I get it, poetic license. AKA B.S.
Get A Life
Covina, CA#355
Monday Dec 15
Take your ethnic war somewhere else and get out of my country. Both sides sound like a bunch of whiney bitches. Assimilate or go back home.
Siegfried
Brentwood, CA#356
Monday Dec 15
this is home
gottawonder
Los Angeles, CA#357
Tuesday Dec 16
y'all should get married and suck each other's dcks.
reader
San Francisco, CA#358
Tuesday Dec 16
5,000 Brave Turks Signed Petition As of Yesterday to Apologize for the Catastrophe That Befell The Armenians.9542
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#359
Tuesday Dec 16
Part 14 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
Questions continue pouring out and there is no end in sight (see how the Armenian falsifiers could not respond to Mosin killings by their ancestors and Gaflan Armenians burning Azeri women and children like Hitler’s Nazis?)
Please confront those loud, arrogant Armenian falsifiers who barge into your home armed with their cameras and scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table:
“Enough is enough! Why don’t you answer the following questions (and the previous ones, while at it) about Armenian history about which you Armenians are curiously always silent?”
Tell Armenians that merely the fact that the questions can continue and this debate can go on for so long means that Armenian case is doubtful and that Turks have legitimate objections to bogus genocide allegations.
52- Do you know the fifth of THE SIX APOLOGIES TURKS HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR since the end of WWI which is for the New York Times to apologize for biased coverage of 1915? Did you know NYT published 145 partisan reports demonizing Turks while allowing zero rebuttals, responses, or commentaries to Turks? Do you know most of those stories are recanted since then but they continue to be used by Armenians as facts?
53- Do you know the sixth of THE SIX APOLOGIES TURKS HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR since the end of WWI which is for the Ottoman-Armenians to apologize for destroying a millennium of relatively harmonious Turkish-Armenian co-habitation in Anatolia with their greed, propaganda, agitation, terrorism, rebellions, treason, and territorial demands?
54- Did you know the Ottoman Empire loved and cherished the Armenians as “the most loyal nation” but the Armenians betrayed this respect by donning the French and Russian uniforms to kill their Ottoman-Muslim neighbors? What is there to keep one from thinking that the Armenians would not commit the same treason here tomorrow? Say if the U.S. forces Armenia to turn over Karabagh to its rightful owners, Azerbaijan? Or if the US makes Armenian end its military occupation of Western Azerbaijan? Who can guarantee that ASALA or JCAG will not commit terrorist acts against American leaders then?
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
PS: Here is my pledge to open-minded truth-seekers: Every time an Armenian falsifier posts a message, I shall add one or more questions to this list for you to ask those genocide crowds. After all, too many unanswerable questions can only lead to the total collapse of bogus Armenian claims.
PPS: By this time, with all the questions, a big picture should start gradually emerging: one of rebellion and terason by well-armed Armenian thugs and para-militaries, organized into armies by the help of Russia, France, and Britain, in order to backstab and destroy the Ottoman Empire during WWI. Questions will continue...
jda
San Mateo, CA#360
Tuesday Dec 16
"By this time, with all the questions, a big picture should start gradually emerging: one of rebellion and terason by well-armed Armenian thugs and para-militaries, organized into armies by the help of Russia, France, and Britain, in order to backstab and destroy the Ottoman Empire during WWI. Questions will continue... "
Maybe that big picture will arise in the mind of someone who cannot reason.
How do defenseless and unarned men, women and children under the control of gendrmes in death march convoys constitute a treasonous army? How many babies were in this Army?
There is an old saying Armenians and Turks use: you cannot cover the sun with mud.
jda
San Mateo, CA#361
Tuesday Dec 16
"By this time, with all the questions, a big picture should start gradually emerging: one of rebellion and terason by well-armed Armenian thugs and para-militaries, organized into armies by the help of Russia, France, and Britain, in order to backstab and destroy the Ottoman Empire during WWI. Questions will continue... "
Ergone,
Have you considered treatment for your hysteria?
jda
San Mateo, CA#362
Tuesday Dec 16
"Please confront those loud, arrogant Armenian falsifiers who barge into your home armed with their cameras and scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table"
Erg,
hyperbole is a good technique when exposing the absurd initial proposition of the adversary. It doesn't work so well here. or at all. or even a wee tiny bit.
Is a computer translating your remarks into English from inuit or malagasy?
cut down on the armenian coffee.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#363
Tuesday Dec 16
Part 14 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
Questions continue pouring out and there is no end in sight (see how the Armenian falsifiers could not respond to Mosin killings by their ancestors and Gaflan Armenians burning Azeri women and children like Hitler’s Nazis?)
Please confront those loud, arrogant Armenian falsifiers who barge into your home armed with their cameras and scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table:
“Enough is enough! Why don’t you answer the following questions (and the previous ones, while at it) about Armenian history about which you Armenians are curiously always silent?”
Tell Armenians that merely the fact that the questions can continue and this debate can go on for so long means that Armenian case is doubtful and that Turks have legitimate objections to bogus genocide allegations.
55 - Professor John Dewey of Columbia University, who also happens to be the brains behind the Dewey Decimal System of book classifications in libraries, wrote in The New Republic on 12 November 1928 the following:
“...Few Americans who mourn, and justly, the miseries of the Armenians, are aware that till the rise of nationalistic ambitions... the Armenians were the favored portion of the population of Turkey, or that in the Great War, they traitorously turned Turkish cities over to the Russian invader; that they boasted of having raised an Army of one hundred and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at least a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population...”
Isn’t this proof enough of the Armenian distortions?
56 - George M. Lamsa, a fair and honest missionary well known for his research on Christianity, The Secret of the Near East, The Ideal Press, Philadelphia 1923, p 133 said and I quote:
"…In some towns containing ten Armenian houses and thirty Turkish houses, it was reported that 40,000 people were killed, about 10,000 women were taken to the harem, and thousands of children left destitute; and the city university destroyed, and the bishop killed. It is a well- known fact that even in the last war the native Christians, despite the Turkish cautions, armed themselves and fought on the side of the Allies. In these conflicts, they were not idle, but they were well supplied with artillery, machine guns and inflicted heavy losses on their enemies…."
Isn’t this proof enough of the Armenian fraud and perhaps Western complicity?
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
PS: Here is my pledge to open-minded truth-seekers: Every time an Armenian falsifier posts a message, I shall add one or more questions to this list for you to ask those genocide crowds. After all, too many unanswerable questions can only lead to the total collapse of bogus Armenian claims.
PPS: By this time, with all the questions, a big picture should start gradually emerging: one of rebellion and treason by well-armed Armenian thugs and para-militaries, organized into armies by the help of Russia, France, and Britain, in order to backstab and destroy the Ottoman Empire during WWI. Questions will continue...
reader
San Francisco, CA#364
Tuesday Dec 16
explain to me again how anything justifies killing the unarmed babies part, willya?
reader
San Francisco, CA#365
Tuesday Dec 16
Ergun - action item:
explain to me again how anything justifies killing the unarmed babies part, willya?
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#366
Tuesday Dec 16
You use the babies as human shields to cover your dastardly act of terror. That's how!
You use the babies as your facade behind which to throw your bombs to kill innocent Turkish women and babies, that's how!
You kill innocent people at night and hide among the women and children during the day, that's how!
Saddam Husseyin tried that during the first Gulf operation, remember? That's how!
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#367
Tuesday Dec 16
Part 15 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
Questions continue pouring out and there is no end in sight (see how the Armenian falsifiers could not respond to Mosin killings by their ancestors and Gaflan Armenians burning Azeri women and children like Hitler’s Nazis?)
Please confront those loud, arrogant Armenian falsifiers who barge into your home armed with their cameras and scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table:
“Enough is enough! Why don’t you answer the following questions (and the previous ones, while at it) about Armenian history about which you Armenians are curiously always silent?”
Tell Armenians that merely the fact that the questions can continue and this debate can go on for so long means that Armenian case is doubtful and that Turks have legitimate objections to bogus genocide allegations.
57- Dr. Gwynne Dyer, a London-based independent journalist, wrote in 1976:
“… The deafening drumbeat of the propaganda, and the sheer lack of sophistication in argument which comes from preaching decade after decade to a convinced and emotionally committed audience, are the major handicaps of Armenian historiography of the diaspora today…”
Isn’t this a proper description of the Armenian fanaticism today?
58 - Georges de Maleville, lawyer and a specialist on the Armenian question, La Tragédie Arménienne de 1915,(The Armenian tragedy of 1915), Editions F. Sorlot-F. Lanore, Paris, 1988, p 61-63, said:
“…In all the countries, under all the regimes, the staff of the armies in the field evacuate towards the back, the populations which live in the zone of fights and can bother the movement of the troops, especially if these populations are hostile.
Public opinion does not find anything to criticize to these measures, obviously painful, but necessary.
During winter of 1939-1940, the radical - socialist French government evacuated and transported in the Southwest of France, notably in the Dordogne, the entire population of the Alsatian villages situated in the valley of the Rhine, to the east of the Maginot line.
This German-speaking population, and even sometimes germanophil, bothered the French army. It stayed in the South, far from the evacuated homes and sometimes destroyed until 1945….And nobody, in France, cried out for inhumanity…”
Doesn’t this poignantly point to the hollowness of the Armenian genocide claims?
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
PS: Here is my pledge to open-minded truth-seekers: Every time an Armenian falsifier posts a message, I shall add one or more questions to this list for you to ask those genocide crowds. After all, too many unanswerable questions can only lead to the total collapse of bogus Armenian claims.
PPS: By this time, with all the questions, a big picture should start gradually emerging: one of rebellion and treason by well-armed Armenian thugs and para-militaries, organized into armies by the help of Russia, France, and Britain, in order to backstab and destroy the Ottoman Empire during WWI. Questions will continue...
6597 so far
San Francisco, CA#368
Tuesday Dec 16
Some 200 Turkish academics, writers, and artists have issued over the Internet an apology for the massacre of ethnic Armenians in 1915, and they are inviting the Turkish public to join them in signing the petition.
In their apology, the signatories say their conscience will not allow them to deny what they call "the great catastrophe" that overtook Armenians in Turkey at that time, and that they share "the pain" of their "Armenian brothers and sisters, and apologize to them."
AP has reported that some 2,500 signatures were on the petition on December 15, the day the apology was launched on the Internet.
The petition itself avoids the inflammatory word "genocide," which has long been taboo in Turkey.
Some intellectuals imply that the petitioners lack moral courage by avoiding the term. But Gila Benmayor, a writer with Turkey's "Hurriyet" newspaper, says the petition is not meant to offend anyone, but is merely an expression of shared grief.
Gregory Stanton, the president of the International Association of Genocide Scholars and head of the Genocide Watch pressure group, says it is essential for the Turkish government to acknowledge the genocide as a way for both Yerevan and Ankara to move on from the past.
"One of the things we've discovered in studying genocide is that post-traumatic stress syndrome actually is inherited -- that is, it's passed on from one generation to the next," Stanton says. "So if you have this kind of trauma, it can actually affect future generations. And it's one of the reasons I'm convinced that the Pontic Greeks, for instance, and the Armenians from the Anatolia region of the Ottoman Empire are so concerned about having their genocides acknowledged, even though Turkey doesn't want to acknowledge it.
"And it's too bad, because really -- the current Turkish government didn't carry out that genocide," Stanton continues. "It would be very healthy for the Turkish government to acknowledge what happened in the past, just as the German government has acknowledged what the Nazis did."
Seen As Betrayal
The signatories are certainly not without courage. Despite the lapse of 90 years, the issue is still red hot. Turkish nationalists regard any attempt to brand Turks as genocidal as a betrayal of the country.
Only last year, Armenian journalist Hrant Dink was shot dead in Istanbul after repeated use of the word genocide to describe what had happened to the Armenians in 1915. His assassin was a teenage nationalist.
Meanwhile, in Yerevan, a group of 30 Armenian intellectuals have written an open letter to Turkish President Abdullah Gul, urging him to recognize the genocide. Referring to the almost century-old enmity between their two nations, the signatories say the historic memory of both nations is "deep and disturbing."
The chairman of the Union of Armenian Writers, Levon Ananian, says the fact that people on both sides of the closed Turkish-Armenian border are preoccupied with the same issue gives grounds for hope.
"The letter of Armenian intellectuals to Abdullah Gul and the initiative of Turkish intellectuals unequivocally prove that the wall between two countries -- the closed border -- can be demolished because we are starting to recognize each other," Ananian says. "When we recognize each other, then we have to try to understand each other. If we understand, then we should come to certain conclusions."
The December 9 open letter is meant to capitalize on the success of Gul's unprecedented visit to Yerevan in September, to attend a soccer match. That visit has led to a substantial thaw in relations, including talks between the two foreign ministers.
But until there is official Turkish recognition of the genocide, says the letter from Armenian intellectuals, there can be no real reconciliation between the two sides.
logical reader
San Francisco, CA#369
Tuesday Dec 16
"This German-speaking population, and even sometimes germanophil, bothered the French army. It stayed in the South, far from the evacuated homes and sometimes destroyed until 1945….And nobody, in France, cried out for inhumanity…”
Doesn’t this poignantly point to the hollowness of the Armenian genocide claims?
Ergun Kirlikovali
Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides
Ergun,
Nobody ever said that the French murdered their Alsatian citizens. If they had, it would still be genocidal. Tht's the point.
You insult your supposedly "genocided" ancestors by invoking their suffering at the bottom of your moronic posts. Why don't you try to establish your points with facts and logic, not some authority you think has been bestowed upon you because Greeks chased or killed your great grandparents. Leave gramps out of it.
We all know how deeply you've suffered.
logical reader
San Francisco, CA#370
Tuesday Dec 16
"Tell Armenians that merely the fact that the questions can continue and this debate can go on for so long means that Armenian case is doubtful and that Turks have legitimate objections to bogus genocide allegations".
There's no debate. That ended four weeks ago when hit'n run quit.
You're the little furry thing in whack a mole.
logical reader
San Francisco, CA#371
Tuesday Dec 16
"]You use the babies as human shields to cover your dastardly act of terror. That's how!
You use the babies as your facade behind which to throw your bombs to kill innocent Turkish women and babies, that's how!
You kill innocent people at night and hide among the women and children during the day, that's how!
Saddam Husseyin tried that during the first Gulf operation, remember? That's how!"
Ergot,
The Armenians were killed by state actors and occasionally civilians encouraged both by state actors and v naughty Imams to kill while these civilians were in death march caravans under guard. Not much bomb throwing was going on while these civilians were under guard, marching south to their deaths.
Try again - persistence is not a virtue when married to stupidity
researcher
San Francisco, CA#372
Tuesday Dec 16
"Armenians have been at it for 90+ years... We've only just begun!
Posted by: Ergun Kirlikovali | April 20, 2007 7:59 AM"
Good job!
Since you got involved, the PM of Turkey has gone to Yerevan, and vice-versa; 6,000 plus open-hearted real Turks signed the apology, and Turkey is coming to grips with history, if only to forestall Congressional recognition.
Looks to me like you will be left behind with your cut und paste resources.
pr MAN
San Francisco, CA#373
Tuesday Dec 16
Ergun,
I cannot think of a dumber approach to appealing to neutral readers than the superheated nonsense you and a few other coleagues write here and elsewhere.
You're almost all old men, and that's no surprise.
Here's a tip or two as aprt of my final bow:
1. Stop calling Armenians now and then names. You sound just like the racist CUP murderers who analogized Armenians to vermin. No more jokes about dead Armenian flies. Stop calling them all traitors. Stop saying that Armenians are hateful.
The only person using such terminology is you. You are free to describe historical acts and actors anyway you please, but calling all of the Armenians traitors is like calling all Turks dumb or barbaric - both sets of remarks are silly and insulting. It makes onlookers squirm and head for the exits. It also renounces the diverse if unequal bounty of the Ottoman Empoire at its best.
2. You betray a Middle Eastern male way of communicating, as do many Armenian males. There is not the slightest sympathy or softness for "the other" in your hundreds of communications. Take a hint from the Turkish intellectuals who bravely signed the apology - they do not use the word Genocide, but they simply acknowledge great suffering without condition or accusation. You can still get your points across without demonizing Armenians as a race.
3. You look like an idiot when you take more extreme positions than the denialist camp. For example, Lewis thinks 1M in Armenian losses is quite likely; Lewy admits that large numbers were murdered, and both he and Lowry (shortly before he disappeared from the fray) acknowledged that Genocide was possible. You do need to master Quataert. You misread them all to say that you somehow know now there was no Genocide, and that only 8,000 Armenians were killed. Pretend to keep an open mind.
4. Leave the Pontic Greeks and Assyrians alone. Armenians do not control them.
5. Nowhere in this too-long running mud fight has any Armenian, myself included, disrespected the innocent dead, Muslim, Druze, Jew or Christian.
You never acknowledge anything except Balkan tragedy of your family and some strained effort to be the every-Turk. You fail in this regard. Make your arguments without dragging your grandparents through the illogic swamp.
6. Americans aren't interested in ethnic name-calling. Your pitiful quotes from 100 years ago are going nowhere. For each you have, I have 20. So what?
7. I assume some Armenian got in your face and accused you of killing his family 40 years ago. I am sorry to you and every other person some of my hotheaded cousins alienated. But that does not explain why you can't write or think clearly. And, we can look to Turkish media and culture for many insults against Armenians.
8. I want Turkey to be a free and democratic nation where anyone can say anything without getting sued or killed.
9. Leave alone scholars who disagree with you. If you disagree with Akcam, Belge, Gocek, et al, take them on in open debate, rather than calling them names like terrorist. Yes, some Armos are in need of this advice as well. This is America, where we profess the Enlightenment, not the fatwa.
Your grandchildren, if you are lucky enough, andI hope you are, will be Americans, and they willnot want Gramps to be consumed with hate.
I've had fun whacking your arguments, its time to quit. Aska Sufi for help.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#374
Tuesday Dec 16
Part 16 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
Questions continue pouring out and there is no end in sight (see how the Armenian falsifiers could not respond to Mosin killings by their ancestors and Gaflan Armenians burning Azeri women and children like Hitler’s Nazis?)
Please confront those loud, arrogant Armenian falsifiers who barge into your home armed with their cameras and scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table:
“Enough is enough! Why don’t you answer the following questions (and the previous ones, while at it) about Armenian history about which you Armenians are curiously always silent?”
Tell Armenians that merely the fact that the questions can continue and this debate can go on for so long means that Armenian case is doubtful and that Turks have legitimate objections to bogus genocide allegations.
59- Dr. Gwynne Dyer, a London-based independent journalist, wrote in 1976:
“… The deafening drumbeat of the propaganda, and the sheer lack of sophistication in argument which comes from preaching decade after decade to a convinced and emotionally committed audience, are the major handicaps of Armenian historiography of the diaspora today…”
Isn’t this a proper description of the Armenian fanaticism?
60- Georges de Maleville, lawyer and a specialist on the Armenian question, La Tragédie Arménienne de 1915,(The Armenian tragedy of 1915), Editions F. Sorlot-F. Lanore, Paris, 1988, p 61-63, said:
“…In all the countries, under all the regimes, the staff of the armies in the field evacuate towards the back, the populations which live in the zone of fights and can bother the movement of the troops, especially if these populations are hostile. Public opinion does not find anything to criticize to these measures, obviously painful, but necessary. During winter of 1939-1940, the radical - socialist French government evacuated and transported in the Southwest of France, notably in the Dordogne, the entire population of the Alsatian villages situated in the valley of the Rhine, to the east of the Maginot line. This German-speaking population, and even sometimes germanophil, bothered the French army. It stayed in the South, far from the evacuated homes and sometimes destroyed until 1945….And nobody, in France, cried out for inhumanity…”
Doesn’t this point poignantly to the hollowness of the Armenian claims?
61- How did “the most loyal nation” in the Ottoman Empire turn into “the most distrusted nation”? Can Turks be blamed for losing their trust in Armenians after Armenian rebellions and treason?
624 - What about Armenia’s aggression in Karabagh-Azerbaijan since 1988? What about Armenia’s aggression in Azerbaijan since 1992? What about Armenia’s ethnic cleansing both in Karabagh and Azerbaijan since 1992? What kind of morality is it that worries about 700,000 relocated Armenians 93 years ago but could not care less about a million Azeris expelled from their homes at gun point by Armenian thugs in 1994? Why is everyone so hush-hush about the tragedy of one million Azeri refugees who still brave the freezing Caucasus winters in leaky tents with little food or medicine for the 14th years in a row?
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
PS: Here is my pledge
reader
San Mateo, CA#375
Wednesday Dec 17
Ergun thinks that an Ottomanist who has come to believe Genocide occurred is a "Turk-hater".
From his own comment to an otherwise wacky article he wrote saying Armenians were like the KKK, Ergun dismissed Professor Quataert this way:
KIRLIKOVALI // Dec 15, 2008 at 7:20 pm
About Quataert, the term “AFATH”(Armenian Falsifiers and Turk-Haters) includes non-Armenian scholars, too.
Anyone who ignores the 6 T’s of the Turkish-Armenian conflict to force a genocide conclusion, unsupported by historical evidence or a court verdict, is a member of the AFATH community."
In other words, asserting merely that there are reasons to believe in the Genocide is not merely wrong or debatable, but the illegitimate product of hate.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#376
Wednesday Dec 17
Part 17 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
Questions continue pouring out and there is no end in sight.
See how the Armenian falsifier could not respond to Mosin killings by his ancestors and Gaflan Armenians burning Azeri women and children like Hitler’s Nazis?
See how he cannot add any ideas, thoughts, facts, figures, or other such input, because he doesn’t have any other than Armenian propaganda material, and how he is reduced to ridicule and insults?
Look how much information was unearthed, thanks to his meaningless posts. None of this matters to me as I have a reason and a purpose in doing what I am doing
Please confront those loud, arrogant Armenian falsifiers who barge into your home armed with their cameras and scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table:
“Enough is enough! Why don’t you answer the following questions (and the previous ones, while at it) about Armenian history about which you Armenians are curiously always silent?”
63- Did you know that the 1923 Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, Armenia's First Prime Minister, is perhaps, one of the most valuable “smoking guns”, as it comes from such a highly placed Armenian official and contradicts and disproves the Armenian claims of genocide?
(Source: The Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, The First PM of Armenia:“The Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnagtzoutiun) Has Nothing To Do Any More”, Translated from the original by Matthew A. Callender; Edited by John Roy Carlson (Arthur A. Derounian); Published by the Armenian Information Service ; Suite 7D, 471 Park Ave., New York 22, 1955 ; Electronic format available at : www.ataa.org .)
« At the beginning of the fall of 1914 when Turkey had not yet entered the war but had already been making preparations, Armenian revolutionary bands began to be formed in Transcaucasia with great enthusiasm and, with especially, much uproar. Contrary to the decision taken during their general meeting at Erzurum only a few weeks before, the A.R.F. had [actively participated] in the formation of the bands and their future military action against Turkey.
66- Did you know that the Armenian claims, mainly based on wartime British propaganda which even the British themselves ignored during the Malta Trials, are still widely spread today as the whole truth by members of the AFATH community and mostly accepted as such by the unsuspecting public?
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
ChiliHead
“Playoffs are on!”
CA#377
Wednesday Dec 17
Dang! You guys sure like to write books on the subject. Is this your masters thesis or what?
questioner
San Mateo, CA#378
Thursday Dec 18
What does "turkification" mean?
ChiliHead
“Playoffs are on!”
CA#379
Thursday Dec 18
questioner wrote:
What does "turkification" mean?
Thats when you roast a turkey that is stuffed with a turkey and you eat the whole thing. My cousin did it once and slept for 2 days.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#380
Thursday Dec 18
Part 18 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
Questions continue pouring out and there is no end in sight.
See how the Armenian falsifiers could not respond to Mosin killings by his ancestors and Gaflan Armenians burning Azeri women and children like Hitler’s Nazis?
See how they cannot add any ideas, thoughts, facts, figures, or other such input, because they do not have any, other than memorized Armenian propaganda material and how they are reduced to ridicule and insults?
Look how much information was unearthed, thanks to their meaningless posts. None of this matters to me as I have a reason and a purpose in bringing my side of the story out in the form of questions. Let them spill their filth while I drill their facade.
Please confront those loud, arrogant Armenian falsifiers who barge into your home and scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table:
“Enough is enough! Since you claim to know-it-all, why don’t you answer the following simple questions (and the previous ones, while at it) about Armenian history?”
67- Noting that Katchaznouni was mostly referring to the 1919-1920 period, after the short-lived Republic of Armenia had been established, leading to the official war between Turkish revolutionary forces and armies of the newly independent Armenia and that the Turkish-Armenian war culminated in the Treaty of Gumru on December 2, 1920, did you know that he confessed as follows?
« In an undertaking of such gravity, fraught with most serious consequences, individual agents of the Transcaucasian A.R.F. acted against the wiIl of our superior authority, against the will of the General Meeting of the Party... In the fall of 1914 Armenian volunteer bands organized themselves and fought against the Turks because they could not refrain… from organizing and… fighting. This was (in)[sic.] an inevitable result of a psychology on which the Armenian people had nourished itself during an entire generation : that mentality should have found its expression, and did so.»(page 5)
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
pr MAN
San Francisco, CA#381
Thursday Dec 18
Ergun,
Before you post stuff, read it. You'll look better.
1. Your post about fedayee using Mosin rifles states they did this in 1893. The Genocide commenced in April, 1915. That is a span of 22 years. More than a generation.
2. Your post says that a few armed Fedayee withstood "attacks" by Kurds and Turks. Are you ignorant of the documented fact that criminal Turks and especially Kurds raided Armenian farms and towns from time, especially at harvest time and Easter, confident that the Gendarmes would not stop it. You are basically saying it was terrorist for Armenians to defend themselves from theft, rape and murder. Should I inform Orange County jail inmates to head for Coto because you don't believe iin resisting violent crime?
3. As a supposed Republican, do you contest the right of people to keep and bear arms, especially where self defense is implicated.
4. The article says that the attacking Turks and Kurds were armed with other long guns. These were obviously not women and children.
5. The "Starving Armenians" starved in the 1915-1923 period. I commend a sad but comprehensive article to you from National Geographic in about 1919.
6. If territorial schemes make Armenians en masse guilty of something, than I suppose Turks and Turkey are too, as some CUP and Republican era theoreticians wanted an uninterrupted Turkish speaking corrodor from The Med to the Pacific, with Armenains and other non-Turks wiped off the map.
7. How do your posts justify the intentional state killing of children, women and unarmed men? That's the crucial issue your dump trucks of red herrings cannot obscure.
You can't hide the sun by throwing mud at it.
JDA
SURVIVOR OF ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI CRAP ON PATERNAL AND MATERNAL SIDES
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#382
Thursday Dec 18
Part 19 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
See how the Armenian falsifiers could not respond to Mosin killings by his ancestors and Gaflan Armenians burning Azeri women and children like Hitler’s Nazis?
See how they cannot add any ideas, thoughts, facts, figures, or other such input, because they do not have any, other than memorized Armenian propaganda material and how they are reduced to ridicule and insults?
Look how much information was unearthed, thanks to their meaningless posts. None of this matters to me as I have a reason and a purpose in bringing my side of the story out in the form of questions. Let them spill their filth while I drill their facade.
Please confront those loud, arrogant Armenian falsifiers who barge into your home and scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table:
“Enough is enough! Since you claim to know-it-all, why don’t you answer the following simple questions (and the previous ones, while at it) about Armenian history?”
Questions continue pouring out and there is no end in sight:
68- Isn’t the 1923 manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, the first pm of the Independent Armenian Republic (1918-1920,) clearly documenting the Armenian rebellions and treason ?
« In an undertaking of such gravity (i.e. taking up arms against one’s own government, EK), fraught with most serious consequences, individual agents of the Transcaucasian A.R.F. acted against the wiIl of our superior authority, against the will of the General Meeting of the Party... In the fall of 1914 Armenian volunteer bands organized themselves and fought against the Turks because they could not refrain… from organizing and… fighting. This was (in)[sic.] an inevitable result of a psychology on which the Armenian people had nourished itself during an entire generation : that mentality should have found its expression, and did so.»(page 5)
69- Isn’t it true that Katchaznouni believes that « the formation of Armenian bands was wrong » and that the Armenians had participated in that movement to the greatest extent « contrary to the decision and the will of the General Meeting of the Party (i.e. ARF, EK)»?
Didn’t he write that the Armenians « had embraced Russia whole heartedly without any compunction.»(p. 6)
7-- Didn’t Katchaznouni declare the following damning judgment?
« We had created a dense atmosphere of illusion in our minds. We had implanted our own desires into the minds of others ; we had lost our sense of reality and were carried away with our dreams… Attention was called to some kind of a letter by Vorontzov-Dashkov to the Catholicos... with... generalities which might be interpreted in any manner...»
Here is confession of ARmenian war crimes right from the horse's mouth...
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
synapses working
San Francisco, CA#383
Thursday Dec 18
"See how the Armenian falsifiers could not respond to Mosin killings by his ancestors and Gaflan Armenians burning Azeri women and children like Hitler’s Nazis?'
I did respond by quoting the material you reproduced but did not read. My ancestors weren't armed enough. I believe in self defense. You apparently believe that anyone defending himself from a Turkishcriminal or bandit is committing a crime. That does indeed reflect Ottoman law -Armenians could not even testify against a Moslem in court.
What is a Gaflan Armenian/Never heard of it. Something you concocted.
The fact that you dream up some hallucination about burning people is without meaning. However,there are plenty of charred Armenian remains at Der Zor.
You still haven't come up with a defense to killing women and children.
How does a Turkish hillbilly come up with these Sultanic ideas that Turkish or Moslem criminals are worth more than Christians defending themselves? This is America, nobody is a Sultan here.
gottawonder
Los Angeles, CA#384
Thursday Dec 18
synapses working wrote:
"See how the Armenian falsifiers could not respond to Mosin killings by his ancestors and Gaflan Armenians burning Azeri women and children like Hitler’s Nazis?'
I did respond by quoting the material you reproduced but did not read. My ancestors weren't armed enough. I believe in self defense. You apparently believe that anyone defending himself from a Turkishcriminal or bandit is committing a crime. That does indeed reflect Ottoman law -Armenians could not even testify against a Moslem in court.
What is a Gaflan Armenian/Never heard of it. Something you concocted.
The fact that you dream up some hallucination about burning people is without meaning. However,there are plenty of charred Armenian remains at Der Zor.
You still haven't come up with a defense to killing women and children.
How does a Turkish hillbilly come up with these Sultanic ideas that Turkish or Moslem criminals are worth more than Christians defending themselves? This is America, nobody is a Sultan here.
eh, don't bother with that idiot. he's an islamofascist propagandist ...
Ergun Kirlikovali
Trabuco Canyon, CA#385
Thursday Dec 18
I am not the coward one who is hiding behind a fake name all these weeks...
Therapy Can Help Yur Moma
West Covina, CA#386
Thursday Dec 18
jda wrote:
"Please confront those loud, arrogant Armenian falsifiers who barge into your home armed with their cameras and scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table"
Erg,
hyperbole is a good technique when exposing the absurd initial proposition of the adversary. It doesn't work so well here. or at all. or even a wee tiny bit.
Is a computer translating your remarks into English from inuit or malagasy?
cut down on the armenian coffee.
Are you a jobless Vulcan or do you just play one on TV? OMFG!!!
pr MAN
San Francisco, CA#387
Friday Dec 19
Ergun Kirlikovali wrote:
I am not the coward one who is hiding behind a fake name all these weeks...
Ergo,
8 oz gloves, NO HELMETS, Marine Corps rules, with a referee and a full release. Anytime you want. San Francisco Olympic Club has a ring, as does LAPD.
pr MAN
San Francisco, CA#388
Friday Dec 19
Therapy Can Help Yur Moma wrote:
Are you a jobless Vulcan or do you just play one on TV? OMFG!!!
It can help my museum of modern art?
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#389
Friday Dec 19
The vioent Armenian in you is finally showing. This is the spirit that massacred Turks with Russian made Mosins. Case closed.
By the way, your message 387 contains pretty aggressive words for a coward consistently hiding behind a fake name (dozens of fake names, actually)wouldn't you agree?
pr MAN
San Francisco, CA#390
Friday Dec 19
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI wrote:
The vioent Armenian in you is finally showing. This is the spirit that massacred Turks with Russian made Mosins. Case closed.
By the way, your message 387 contains pretty aggressive words for a coward consistently hiding behind a fake name (dozens of fake names, actually)wouldn't you agree?
Boxing is a sport; not violence. It has rules to protect the weaker fighter. Which would be you, if you could fight. If you challenge me as a coward, it is appropriate for me to challenge your courage in the ring.
There is no transcendent spirit uniting me with anyone else, living or dead, any more than you arte in spiritual communion with Abdul Hamid or Talaat Pasha.
I don't display my name, which is the norm for most posters. What I fear is hacking, not assault. As a Marine officer and former police officer, I think I can handle the occasional nut job.
ChiliHead
“Playoffs are on!”
CA#391
Friday Dec 19
You guys are dumb, ok?
Chilliwillie
Covina, CA#392
Friday Dec 19
ChiliHead wrote:
You guys are dumb, ok?
Are you ever going to get a job and make something of yourself? Oh wait, I see all the retarded postings. Never mind dickface.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#393
Friday Dec 19
In my honest opinion, if a person engaged in a serious debate, hides behind a facade of fake names and cannot bravely post his/her open name, like I always did and stil do, then that person is a worthless coward without shame or honor.
Being a member of some respectable institution does not cure one's cowardice; on the contrary, that coward may dishonor the whole establishment.
If history is any guide, I guess secrecy is needed for future backstabbing, after all.
synapses working
San Francisco, CA#394
Friday Dec 19
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI wrote:
In my honest opinion, if a person engaged in a serious debate, hides behind a facade of fake names and cannot bravely post his/her open name, like I always did and stil do, then that person is a worthless coward without shame or honor.
Being a member of some respectable institution does not cure one's cowardice; on the contrary, that coward may dishonor the whole establishment.
If history is any guide, I guess secrecy is needed for future backstabbing, after all.
Ergun,
Pick the date place and time.
I am sure they trained you to fight in the Turkish Army.
So prove to all your 85 year old nut job pals what a brave guy you are.
Man to man.
The referee will protect you.
ChiliHead
“Playoffs are on!”
San Marino CA.
CA#395
Friday Dec 19
Chilliwillie wrote:
Are you ever going to get a job and make something of yourself? Oh wait, I see all the retarded postings. Never mind dickface.
Im at work now. I see that you are a true vulgarian.
Boogerchili
Covina, CA#396
Friday Dec 19
ChiliHead wrote:
-quoted text-Im at work now. I see that you are a true vulgarian.
You are jealous of Armenians I see. So you consider posting on the internet a job? How much does it pay ricedick?
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#397
Friday Dec 19
Part 20 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
See how the Armenian falsifiers could not respond to Mosin killings by his ancestors and Gaflan Armenians burning Azeri women and children like Hitler’s Nazis?
See how they cannot add any ideas, thoughts, facts, figures, or other such input, because they do not have any, other than memorized Armenian propaganda material and how they are reduced to ridicule, insults, slander, intimidation, and threats?
You, too, can confront those loud, arrogant Armenian falsifiers who scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table:
“Enough is enough! Since you claim to know-it-all, why don’t you answer the following simple questions (and the previous ones, while at it) about Armenian history?”
Questions continue pouring out and there is no end in sight.
I’ll spend a few more postings here on Katchaznouni before I move on to new proofs of many Armenian falsifications.
(Source: The Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, The First PM of Armenia:“The Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnagtzoutiun) Has Nothing To Do Any More”, Translated from the original by Matthew A. Callender; Edited by John Roy Carlson (Arthur A. Derounian); Published by the Armenian Information Service ; Suite 7D, 471 Park Ave., New York 22, 1955 ; Electronic format available at : www.ataa.org .)
71- On the war with Turkey, didn’t Katchaznouni say on pages 9-10 the following:
«… The war with us was inevitable... We had not done all that was necessary for us to have done to evade war. We ought to have used peaceful language with the Turks...We had no information about the real strength of the Turks and relied on ours. This was the fundamental error. We were not afraid of war because we thought we could win... When the skirmishes had started the Turks proposed that we meet and confer. We did not do so and defied them. Our army was well fed and well armed and [clothed] but it did not fight. The troops were constantly retreating and deserting their positions; they threw away their arms and dispersed in the villages. Our army was demoralized during the period of internal strife, the inane destruction and the pillage that went [on] without punishment. It was demoralized and tired. The system of roving bands, which was especially encouraged by the Bureau government, was destroying the unity of the military organization...»
72- And this?
«… In spite of the fact that the Armenians had better material and better support, their armies lost. Although Armenian politicians and writers had, for years, criticized the Ottoman Government for not making military service obligatory for the Armenians, there were no Moslems in the army of the Armenian Republic. And the advancing Turks fought only against the regular soldiers; they did not carry the battle to the civilian sector. Edward Fox, the American District Commander at Kars, in a telegram, dated October 31, 1920, to Admiral Bristol, the U.S. High Commissioner in Istanbul, wrote that the Americans were continuing their work of looking after the Armenian children as before, that the Turkish soldiers were well-disciplined and that there had not been any massacres. Such missionary and philanthropic establishments protected only the children of Armenians, and never the thousands of Turkish children, who had become orphans on account of Armenian massacres of their parents and families....»
Are you beginning to get the big picture, dear readers?
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#398
Friday Dec 19
Part 20 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
See how the Armenian falsifiers could not respond to Mosin killings by his ancestors and Gaflan Armenians burning Azeri women and children like Hitler’s Nazis? See how they cannot add any ideas, thoughts, facts, figures, or other such input, because they do not have any, other than memorized Armenian propaganda material and how they are reduced to ridicule, insults, slander, intimidation, and threats? You, too, can confront those loud, arrogant Armenian falsifiers who scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table:
“Enough is enough! Since you claim to know-it-all, why don’t you answer the following simple questions (and the previous ones, while at it) about Armenian history?”
Questions continue pouring out and there is no end in sight. I’ll spend a few more postings here on Katchaznouni before I move on to new proof of Armenian falsificatuions.((Source: The Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, The First PM of Armenia:“The Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnagtzoutiun) Has Nothing To Do Any More”, Translated from the original by Matthew A. Callender; Edited by John Roy Carlson (Arthur A. Derounian); Published by the Armenian Information Service ; Suite 7D, 471 Park Ave., New York 22, 1955 ; Electronic format available at : www.ataa.org .)
71- On the war with Turkey, didn’t Katchaznouni say on pages 9-10 the following:
«… The war with us was inevitable... We had not done all that was necessary for us to have done to evade war. We ought to have used peaceful language with the Turks...We had no information about the real strength of the Turks and relied on ours. This was the fundamental error. We were not afraid of war because we thought we could win... When the skirmishes had started the Turks proposed that we meet and confer. We did not do so and defied them. Our army was well fed and well armed and [clothed] but it did not fight. The troops were constantly retreating and deserting their positions; they threw away their arms and dispersed in the villages. Our army was demoralized during the period of internal strife, the inane destruction and the pillage that went [on] without punishment. It was demoralized and tired. The system of roving bands, which was especially encouraged by the Bureau government, was destroying the unity of the military organization...»
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#399
Friday Dec 19
Part 20 of 999 cont’d
72- And this:
«… In spite of the fact that the Armenians had better material and better support, their armies lost. Although Armenian politicians and writers had, for years, criticized the Ottoman Government for not making military service obligatory for the Armenians, there were no Moslems in the army of the Armenian Republic. And the advancing Turks fought only against the regular soldiers; they did not carry the battle to the civilian sector. Edward Fox, the American District Commander at Kars, in a telegram, dated October 31, 1920, to Admiral Bristol, the U.S. High Commissioner in Istanbul, wrote that the Americans were continuing their work of looking after the Armenian children as before, that the Turkish soldiers were well-disciplined and that there had not been any massacres. Such missionary and philanthropic establishments protected only the children of Armenians, and never the thousands of Turkish children, who had become orphans on account of Armenian massacres of their parents and families....»
73- And this?
When on November 2, 1920, the armies of Kazim Karabekir Pasha reached Gümrü(Alexandropol, now Leninakan), the Bureau-government presented its resignation. Simultaneously, within a few hours of each other, while one Dashnag delegation headed by the retiring Prime Minister was negotiating with the Soviets, another Dashnag delegation led by a former Prime Minister negotiated with the Turks It was decided that those who negotiated should be new men. A government under Simon Vratzian was formed.
74- And this?
Talks with the Turks led to the Treaty of Gümrü, signed on December 2, 1920. It states that the Turkish and the Armenian Governments,« for the purpose of putting an end to the hostilities and to find a basis of agreement, have sat down for an examination of the facts.» Kazim Karabekir Pasha (Commander on the Eastern Front) on behalf of the Turks, and Alexander Khadissian (Prime Minister) on behalf of the Armenians, participated.
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
PS: Truth will win
pr MAN
San Francisco, CA#400
Friday Dec 19
but no matter how much disorganized stuff you post in your adopted language, you're still a physical coward.
Vertchatsaft,
ChiliHead
“Playoffs are on!”
San Marino CA.
#401
Friday Dec 19
Boogerchili wrote:
-quoted text-
You are jealous of Armenians I see. So you consider posting on the Internet a job? How much does it pay rice dick?
Armenians are white and so am I. What have I got to be jealous of? being covered completely in hair or a Fred Flintstone head? Women are pretty tho. I took the liberty of correcting your poor spelling
antiantismitic
San Mateo, CA#402
Saturday Dec 20
Ergun,
A MEMRI site has published this statement, with your name as a signer condemning antisemitism in Turkey. It seems to have been on the net for at least three years. Did you sign this? We are proud of you if you did.
But then,if you demand retraction, then how will you defend antisemitism, if you do?
What a pickle.
LA PÉTITION:«Tolérance zéro face à l'antisémitisme»
(Publiée par le magazine (socialiste) Birikim dans son numéro d'octobre 2004, et signée par des intellectuels tucs de toutes les religions)
«Tant qu'un danger n'est pas clairement formulé, on ne peut rien faire contre. En outre, les termes flous ne font qu'occulter le mal.
Nous, signataires, souhaitons attirer l'attention sur l'éternel antisémitisme turc, qui gagne régulièrement du terrain en Turquie, et faire part de nos observations et préoccupations à toutes les personnes intéressées.
Les différents cas de violence raciste et de discrimination à l'encontre de citoyens non-turcs, non-musulmans et non-sunnites de République turque ont été dénoncés et condamnés, même si ce n'est que de façon limitée, alors que l'antisémitisme demeure,à quelques rares exceptions près, un problème tu, sous-estimé ou tout bonnement nié.
«Les publications sont devenues des véhicules de confusion face à des concepts comme le nazisme, le fascisme, le sionisme, l'Holocauste, le génocide, etc., les vidant de leur sens et brouillant leurs différences. Elles minimisent l'Holocauste en niant son aspect historique unique, donnant ainsi le feu vert à sa réfutation.
La spécificité historique de l'antisémitisme, la facilité avec laquelle il se répand,à travers toutes les classes sociales et tous les milieux culturels, fait qu'il doit être traité séparément. Nous souhaitons souligner qu'un large secteur de la gauche, dont le milieu militant pour les droits de l'Homme, ne mentionne pas dans son programme l'antisémitisme comme menace spécifique – et quand il se voit obligé d'affronter le problème, se contente de la placer sous la rubrique «antisémitisme», en ignorant la force.
Cette situation illustre le fait que l'antisémitisme ne se limite pas à saluer Hitler mais revêt plusieurs visages différents.
Il semble évident que quand il devient impossible de rendre compte de la complexité du monde,«l'autre – ennemi» est créé et isolé. Les Juifs ont été dans le passé, et sont encore aujourd'hui, la cible de ce «besoin», besoin qui porte un nom!
L'antisémitisme actuel est activement diffusé par la presse islamiste dont une grande partie pousse l'audace jusqu'à faire l'éloge de la 'prévoyance' d'Adolf Hitler. Parallèlement, un étalage sans précédent de publications et de campagnes contre les 'sabbataïstes' a vu le jour, sabbataïstes dont les origines juives sont exposées d'une façon qui rappelle l'obsession nazie de créer une 'race pure'; ils sont désignés comme étant les membres malveillants d'une secte secrète qui participerait au 'complot juif pour dominer le monde'.
Cette vague d'antisémitisme a pu progresser sans rencontrer d'obstacles dans les canaux islamistes ainsi que dans les principaux médias, pour s'installer dans la vie et le discours de tous les jours des Turcs. C'est devenu une seconde nature de voir 'le doigt des Juifs' derrière chaque pierre et d'inventer différentes théories de complot ayant 'le Juif' pour méchant.
Nous proclamons par la présente notre opposition aux hypothèses antisémites envahissantes non remises en question, ainsi que notre détermination à atteindre un [niveau] de TOLÉRANCE ZÉRO FACE À L'ANTISÉMITISME, notre détermination à nous informer,à nous opposer,àécrire,à dessiner,àélever la voix et à demeurer solidaires de tous ceux qui sentent et pensent comme nous.»
Truman
UK#403
Sunday Dec 21
the ottomans were genocide committers and the current turkish goverment are genocide deniers, plain and simple. they killed armenians, pontic-greeks and syriacs while helping to carve out Israel, leaving the whole region unstable to this day.
kirlikokoward
Los Angeles, CA#404
Sunday Dec 21
Before anyone bothers with Error-gun, read this:
http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/illegal...
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#405
Sunday Dec 21
Part 21 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
You, too, can confront those loud, arrogant Armenian falsifiers who scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table:
“Enough is enough! Since you claim to know-it-all, why don’t you answer the following simple questions (and the previous ones, while at it) about the real Armenian history?”
75- On the greediness of the Armenian revolutionaries, didn’t Katchaznouni say ask the following?[p12, ref. 1]
«… A vast state was being organized and demanded -a great Armenia from the Black Sea to the Mediterranean, from the mountains of Karabagh to the Arabian Desert,[From] where did that imperial, amazing demand emanate ?… How did it happen that our Delegation signed [the]‘from Sea to Sea’ demand?…»
76- Didn’t « the rude awakening », in the words of Katchaznouni, follow afterwards?[ ref 2]
«…The Treaty of Sevres, signed on August 10, 1920, which could not have been enforced on the Turks, had to be abandoned… Lord Kinross writes that it was « an early product of that ‘circus’ of Allied conferences which… followed the signatures of the Treaty of Versailles.»
77- Wasn’t the Treaty of Sevres was obsolete even before it was ready for signature?
«…The Allied Conferences, with continuous rounds of entertainment, had no way of reinforcing the grant of an independent Armenian state by any form of military action. Nor could any country under a Mandate. When President Wilson announced that he was ready to arbitrate on its frontiers, the « award » had no relation whatsoever to realities.…»[p13, ref. 1]
78- What were the reactions of some Armenians to these inevitable developments?
«... There were the usual complaints that the powers were unfair, did not appreciate us and did not compensate us according to what we deserved.»… It is common knowledge that the Treaty of Lausanne signed on July 24, 1923, replaced the Treaty of Sevres. While the French signed with the Ankara Government an agreement on October 20, 1921 (which amounted to something like a separate peace between Turkey and France) and the U.S. Senate turned down a Mandate (whose frontiers drawn by President Wilson had not satisfied the Armenians), Chicherin (according to Katchaznouni)« offered in the name of [the] Soviet Russia to locate the Armenians of Turkey in [the] Crimea, on the shores of [the] Volga [and] in Siberia.…»[p13, ref. 1]
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
PS: Truth will win
***
[1] Source: The Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, The First PM of Armenia:“The Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnagtzoutiun) Has Nothing To Do Any More”, Translated from the original by Matthew A. Callender; Edited by John Roy Carlson (Arthur A. Derounian); Published by the Armenian Information Service ; Suite 7D, 471 Park Ave., New York 22, 1955 ; Electronic format available at : www.ataa.org .)
[2]“Ataturk : the Rebirth of a Nation”, Lord Kinross, Nicosia. Rustem, 1981, p. xvii.
ChiliHead
“Playoffs are on!”
San Marino CA.
#406
Sunday Dec 21
Are the Armenians also the Kurds? Why do the Turks hate them so much. The Kurds that is
Siegfried
Norwalk, CA#407
Sunday Dec 21
korkak finds his voice
Not his courage
A
Ergun Kirlikovali
Trabuco Canyon, CA#408
Sunday Dec 21
Part 22 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
You, too, can confront those loud, arrogant Armenian falsifiers who scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table:
“Enough is enough! Since you claim to know-it-all, why don’t you answer the following simple questions (and the previous ones, while at it) about the real Armenian history?”
They usually will hide behind fake names and deliberately falsify at will. I shall ignore them and continue presenting here the facts and figures they don’t want you to know, each and every time they post an insult, slander, threat, and/or falsification.
In this and next few segments, I shall document for your benefit, the intense Armenian hatred for all things Turkish, making use of Armenian sources.
You will not believe the blatantly racist nature of those quotations from Armenian leaders, scholars, clergy, or lay people.
This will also help you understand Armenian terrorism in our midst (3 Turkish diplomats were killed in Southern California since 1973.)
79- " All Turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the Armenian nation"
Didn’t Hamparsum Boyaciyan, nicknamed "Murad," a former Ottoman parliamentarian who led Armenian revolutionaries, ravaging Turkish villages behind the Ottoman front lines, 1914 believe this, as cited from Mikael Varandean, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun;" alternately known as "History of the A.R. Federation" ["H. H. Dashnaktsutyan Patmutiwn," Paris,1932 and Cairo,1950]?)
80- "I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones. as I did. I gathered all of the women, men and children, threw big stones down on top of them. They must never live on this earth."
Is not the above quote from a proud Dashnag officer, Aslem Varaam, in the report he wrote from the Beyazit-Vaaram region in 1920?
Source: Lalayan, Revolutsionniy Vostok (Revolutionary East) No: 2-3, Moscow, 1936. Highly deceptive Armenian activists on the Internet are spreading rumors that there is no Lalayan. The above quote has been confirmed. Lalayan or Lalaian was an Armenian Soviet historian and the Dashnag report above was first published in issue 2-3 of the magazine, Revolyutsionniy Vostok and then in issue 2 of Istoricheskie Zapisky, the organ of the USSR Academy of Sciences, Institute of History.
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
jda
San Mateo, CA#409
Monday Dec 22
And how does this justify killing civilians under guard?
merry Christmas
San Mateo, CA#410
Monday Dec 22
Ergun,
I will be taking a few days off from reading your racist taunts. They have all been saved. I assume sooner or latyer your Mexican employees will see them. Hope they're all legal.
I recommend you pray to the Holy Spirit for relief from a hateful and racist heart.
Did you know that Mohammed issued a firman to save the Armenian holy places in Jerusalem from harm?
Tracking that down ought to keep you busy for a few days.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#411
Monday Dec 22
Part 23 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
You, too, can confront those loud, arrogant Armenian falsifiers who scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table:
“Enough is enough! Since you claim to know-it-all, why don’t you answer the following simple questions (and the previous ones, while at it) about the real Armenian history?”
...
81- "…The Moslems who did not succeed in escaping [the city] were put to death [by Armenian revolutionaries]..."
Source: Grace H. Knapp, The Tragedy of Bitlis, Fleming H. Revell Co., New York (1919), page 146.
82- "…We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the Tartars (Turks), and then proceeded in the work of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stones and dust, and when the villages became untenable and the inhabitants fled from them into the fields, bullets and bayonets completed the work…"
Source: Ohanus Appressian, describing incidents in 1919; Memoirs of an Armenian officer, Men are Like That, 1926.
83- "…This three-day massacre by Armenians is recorded in history as the 'March Events' and thousands of Muslims, old people, women and children lost their lives…"
Source: F. Kazemzadeh, The Struggle for Transcaucasia (New York, 1951), p. 69.(This excerpt refers not to Armenian atrocities against Ottoman Turks, but to "Tatar" Turks, when Armenia attacked Azerbaijan in 1918. Regarding this period of March 30 to April 1 1918, Vladimir Lenin said that commissar S. Shaumyan, the chief architect of the massacres throughout Azerbaijan,“turned Baku into an Armenian operated henhouse [slaughterhouse].” According to Justin McCarthy's “Death and Exile," "Between 8,000 and 12,000 Muslims were killed in Baku alone.…”)
84-“…As the Armenians found support among the Reds (who regarded the Tartars as a counter-revolutionary elements) the fighting soon became a massacre of the Tartar population”
Source: W. E. D. Allen and Paul Muratoff,“Caucasian Battlefields”, Cambridge University Press, 1953, p. 481
85- "… Many massacres were committed by the Armenians until our army arrived in Erzurum...(after General Odesilitze left) 2,127 Muslim bodies were buried in Erzurum's center. These are entirely men. There are ax, bayonet and bullet wounds on the dead bodies. Lungs of the bodies were removed and sharp stakes were struck in the eyes. There are other bodies around the city..."
Source: Official telegram of the Third Royal Army Command, addressed to the Supreme Command, March 19, 1918; ATASE Archive of General Staff, Archive No: 4-36-71. D. 231. G.2. K. 2820. Dos.A-69, Fih.3.
…shall continue…
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#412
Monday Dec 22
Part 24 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
You, too, can confront those loud, arrogant Armenian falsifiers who scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table:“Enough is enough! Since you claim to know-it-all, why don’t you answer the following simple questions (and the previous ones, while at it) about the real Armenian history?”
…
86-“.. When we arrived at Zeve, the village couldn't be passed through because of its stench. It was as if the bones in our noses would fall off... There were bodies everywhere. We saw a weird scene on the threshold of one house: they had filled the house with Muslims and burned it, and so many people had been burnt that the fat that had oozed from under the threshold had turned back into the trench in front of the door. That is, it was as if the river of fat had risen and later receded. The fat was still fresh. The entire village had been destroyed and was in this situation. I saw this with my own eyes, and I'll never forget it. We heard that they did the same thing to the Muslims on Carpanak Island. The Armenians told me about the latter; I did not see it for myself...”
Source: Haci Osman Gemicioglu, an Armenian-Turk (having converted to Islam) who eye witnessed the 1915 Zeve massacre by Armenian revolutionaries vicitmizing Turks and Kurds; as told to Huseyin Celik, during interviews conducted in the late 1970s through early 80s.
87- "…Only 1,500 Turks remain in Van…"
Source: The Gochnag, an Armenian newspaper published in the United States, May 22,1915 ... in a proud report documenting the slaughter of the Turkish citizenry of Van.
Note 1 / The origin: A 1982 publication from Ankara's Institute of Foreign Policy, entitled "Ermeni Sorunu: 9 soru 9 cevap [Armenian Question: 9 Questions, 9 Answers ]," page 23.
Note 2 / Guenter Lewy states on p. 98 of his 2005 "Disputed Genocide" book that 3,000 Muslims were left in Van. Though different, the two numbers are still close enough to authoritatively indicate the horrors the Muslims of Van lived through at the hands of the Armenian revolutionaries, seldom mentioned in America by the Armenian lobbies. Compare these figures to the total number of Muslims in Van of more than 35,000 prior to the pogroms conducted by the Armenian revolutionaries.
…shall continue…
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
pr MAN
San Francisco, CA#413
Monday Dec 22
Ergun,
How does any of this, true or false,justify killing hundreds of thousands of women and children under guard in 1915?
You seem to be getting even more hysterical as the apology petition is signed by more and more brave and honorable Turks who think for themselves.
You seem to think revenge kiling by Turks is ok, so why is it different if Armenians did these things in revenge for the Genocide, if that even occurred ab initio?
My position is that all murder is wrong, no matter the supposed reason. Your position seems to be that killing Armenian women is just dandy.
For as many posts as you put, each with a different question, that essential question remains unanswered - how does any of the crap you post negate or justify Genocide?
You're fighting a lost cause. You're a fat 57 year old cowardly loudmouth racist who is losing purchase with a dwindling, aging audience. the sleaze you post might be great for racist old Turks, but here in America we've outgrown racism.[By the way, at least American racists wouldn't back down from a physical challenge the girly way you ran for the exits when challenged to defend your insults in the ring with an average American ex Marine.]
A new world is coming. Not all the incompetent scholars, ridiculous posts, and Turkish state huffing and puffing will hold back an idea whose time has come.
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#414
Monday Dec 22
Part 25 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
You, too, can confront those loud, arrogant Armenian falsifiers who scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table:
“Enough is enough! Since you claim to know-it-all, why don’t you answer the following simple questions (and the previous ones, while at it) about the real Armenian history?”
As these unanswered questions patiently pile up, from million different legitimate sources, another big picture slowly emerges that totally contradicts the deceptive “poor, starving, helpless, unarmed Armenian” myth:
one of heavily armed, hate-filled, and motivated Armenian bands bent on killing as many Muslims as possible,in order to create a greater Armenia on Turkish soil, with lots of active help from Britain, France, Russia and passive help from the U.S. diplomats, missionaries, advisors, and media, al having varying degrees of vested interests in the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.
Let’s continue with questions and quotes:
…
88- "…Thousands of Armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer regiments rendered valuable service to the Russian Army in the years of 1914-15-16..."
Source: Kapriel Serope Papazian, Patriotism Perverted, Boston Baker Press, 1934, pg. 38
89- "With the decline of Ottoman power, and the formalization of tyranny, the spirit of the Zeitun mountaineers remained alert. The government launched a number of expeditions against the town, but these were unsuccessful. The warrior spirit of its armed inhabitants, and its fortress-like setting, made Zeitun a natural focus for the attention of a nationalist or revolutionary, who had seen the success of the revolts in Greece and Serbia. Perhaps a similar success could be gained in Cilicia..."
Source:(Christopher J. Walker, Armenia, The Survival of a Nation, Croom Helm, London / St. Martin's Press, N. Y., 1980, pp. 100-101).
90- "I have it from absolute first-hand information that the Armenians in the Caucasus attacked Tatar (Muslim) villages that are utterly defenseless and bombarded these villages with artillery and they murder the inhabitants, pillage the village and often burn the village."
Source: Admiral Mark Bristol, Bristol Papers, General Correspondence: Container #32: Bristol to Bradley Letter of September 14, 1920.
91- "…There is little news from the interior save that the Russians have entered Van. The contingent is mostly composed of Armenian volunteers who fight with desperate courage, but whose excesses have shocked even the Russian commanders..."
Source: Lewis Einstein, "Inside Constantinople – A [Diplomat's] Diary During the Dardanelles Expedition, April-September, 1915,". 1917, p. 68; John Murray, London. The book is a daily recording of what Einstein saw, heard, received and possibly imagined with cleverly inserted passages on the massacres committed by the Armenians in Russian army ranks . Curiously, Ambassador Morgenthau is not mentioned at all.
…shall continue…
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Irvine, CA#415
Monday Dec 22
Part 26 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
You, too, can confront those loud, arrogant Armenian falsifiers who scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table:
“Enough is enough! Since you claim to know-it-all, why don’t you answer the following simple questions (and the previous ones, while at it) about the real Armenian history?”
As question pile up, from million different sources, another big picture emerges that contradicts the deceptive “poor, starving, helpless, unarmed Armenian” myth:
one of heavily armed, hate-filled, and motivated Armenian bands bent on killing Muslims, mostly Turks, in order to create a greater Armenia, with lots of active help from Britain, France, Russia and passive help from the U.S. diplomats, missionaries, and media, al having competing vested interests in the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.
Let’s continue reading the questions and the quotes:
92 "…The Armenians did exterminate the entire Muslim population of Russian Armenia as Muslims were considered inferior to the Armenians by the prominent leaders of the Dashnaks..."
Source: Mikael Kaprilian, Armenian revolutionary leader, in Yerevan, 1919.
93- "…In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul…"
Source: Sahak Melkonian, Preserving the Armenian Purity, 1920. Please note that until 1820s, the geography that is called Armenia today, including Revan (now Erivan) was a Muslim majority territories, mostly Turks, Azeris, Circassians, and others according to Justin McCarthy,“Death and Exile.” All Muslims were persecuted, killed or forced to flee and replaced with Armenians as a policy of “Christianization” of the Tsarist Russia. As a result, you cannot even find a single mosques standing in Erivan, Armenia’s capital.
94-…."Literally, Tzeghagron means 'to make a religion of one’s race.' Patterned after the Nazi Youth, It was also called Racial Patriots. Nejdeh wrote:'The Racial Religious believes in his racial blood as a deity. Race above everything and before everything. Race comes first. Everything is for the race.' In the April 10, 1936, issue of Hairenik Weekly, Nejdeh stated:'Today Germany and Italy are strong because as a nation they live and breathe in terms of race.' From Racial Patriots and Tzeghagrons, the name of the [Boston] Dashnag youth group was later changed to Armenian Youth Federation, or the AYF, as it is currently known."
Expectedly, most Armenian terrorists today are recruited in these circles embracing “Tzeghagron” mentality. Just look at the writing of some Armenians in this column and judge for yourself as to where that much hate might come from.
…shall continue…
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
gottawonder
Los Angeles, CA#416
Monday Dec 22
I will leave you now to your islamofascist masturbation session. Bye. Hope I never meet you. Hope you move to your beloved genocidal Turkey, dipsh*t
Siegfried
Lake Mary, FL#417
Monday Dec 22
ergoe,
You're getting close to libel. What have I said that shows me to be a terrorist?
Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#418
Tuesday Dec 23
Part 27 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
You, too, can confront those loud, arrogant Armenian falsifiers who scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table:
“Enough is enough! Since you claim to know-it-all, why don’t you answer the following simple questions (and the previous ones, while at it) about the real Armenian history?”
As question pile up, from million different sources, another big picture emerges that contradicts the deceptive “poor, starving, helpless, unarmed Armenian” myth:
one of heavily armed, hate-filled, and motivated Armenian bands bent on killing Muslims, mostly Turks, in order to create a greater Armenia, with lots of active help from Britain, France, Russia and passive help from the U.S. diplomats, missionaries, and media, al having competing vested interests in the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.
Let’s continue reading the questions and the quotes:
Source for quote/question #94 was inadvertently omitted in my last posting. I apologize and provide both the question and its source here:
94-(Repeat)“…Literally, Tzeghagron means 'to make a religion of one’s race.' Patterned after the Nazi Youth, It was also called Racial Patriots. Nejdeh wrote:'The Racial Religious believes in his racial blood as a deity. Race above everything and before everything. Race comes first. Everything is for the race.' In the April 10, 1936, issue of Hairenik Weekly, Nejdeh stated:'Today Germany and Italy are strong because as a nation they live and breathe in terms of race.' From Racial Patriots and Tzeghagrons, the name of the [Boston] Dashnag youth group was later changed to Armenian Youth Federation, or the AYF, as it is currently known."
Source: John Roy Carlson, a.k.a. Arto Derounian, "The Armenian Displaced Persons," Armenian Affairs, 1949-50, p. 19.[ A beautiful description of fanatically racist Armenian minds in today's Internet forums, proudly carrying on the tradition of Hitleresque racial superiority. This ability to distinguish Armenian "purity" from sub-human Muslims and Jews is what helped enable so many Armenians to commit mass murder.]
95- "…Since all the able Moslem men were in the army, it was easy for the Armenians to begin a horrible slaughter of the defenseless Moslem inhabitants in the area. They ... simply cleaned out the Moslem inhabitants in those areas. They performed gruesome deeds, of which I, as an eye witness honestly say that they were much worse than what Turks have been accused of as an Armenian atrocity…."
Source: General Bronsart von Schellendorf , "A Witness for Talat Pasha," Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, July 24, 1921
96-“…There are 400.000 Armenians in the Caucasus, who escaped from the Ottoman State..."
Souce: Hatisov, a later Armenian President, who had joined the Trabzon Conference (14 March-14 April 1918), in a message to Hüseyin Rauf (which number was updated to 500,000 by no other than Richard Hovannisian himself.
97-“…In addition to other non-Ottoman lands, many thousands of Armenians had found refuge in (e.g., Iran, Greece), it becomes plain to see all the Armenian men could not have been murdered in one magical stroke, as Armenian propaganda perpetuates.(Akdes, Nimel Kurat, Turkey and Russia, Ankara, 1990, p.471)
…shall continue…
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#419
Tuesday Dec 23
Part 27 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
You, too, can confront those loud, arrogant Armenian falsifiers who scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table:
“Enough is enough! Since you claim to know-it-all, why don’t you answer the following simple questions (and the previous ones, while at it) about the real Armenian history?”
As question pile up, from million different sources, another big picture emerges that contradicts the deceptive “poor, starving, helpless, unarmed Armenian” myth:
one of heavily armed, hate-filled, and motivated Armenian bands bent on killing Muslims, mostly Turks, in order to create a greater Armenia, with lots of active help from Britain, France, Russia and passive help from the U.S. diplomats, missionaries, and media, al having competing vested interests in the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.
Let’s continue reading the questions and the quotes:
Source for quote/question #94 was inadvertently omitted in my last posting. I apologize and provide both the question and its source here:
94-(Repeat)“…Literally, Tzeghagron means 'to make a religion of one’s race.' Patterned after the Nazi Youth, It was also called Racial Patriots. Nejdeh wrote:'The Racial Religious believes in his racial blood as a deity. Race above everything and before everything. Race comes first. Everything is for the race.' In the April 10, 1936, issue of Hairenik Weekly, Nejdeh stated:'Today Germany and Italy are strong because as a nation they live and breathe in terms of race.' From Racial Patriots and Tzeghagrons, the name of the [Boston] Dashnag youth group was later changed to Armenian Youth Federation, or the AYF, as it is currently known."
Source: John Roy Carlson, a.k.a. Arto Derounian, "The Armenian Displaced Persons," Armenian Affairs, 1949-50, p. 19.[ A beautiful description of fanatically racist Armenian minds in today's Internet forums, proudly carrying on the tradition of Hitleresque racial superiority. This ability to distinguish Armenian "purity" from sub-human Muslims and Jews is what helped enable so many Armenians to commit mass murder.]
95- "…Since all the able Moslem men were in the army, it was easy for the Armenians to begin a horrible slaughter of the defenseless Moslem inhabitants in the area. They ... simply cleaned out the Moslem inhabitants in those areas. They performed gruesome deeds, of which I, as an eye witness honestly say that they were much worse than what Turks have been accused of as an Armenian atrocity…."
Source: General Bronsart von Schellendorf , "A Witness for Talat Pasha," Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, July 24, 1921
96-“…There are 400.000 Armenians in the Caucasus, who escaped from the Ottoman State..."
Souce: Hatisov, a later Armenian President, who had joined the Trabzon Conference (14 March-14 April 1918), in a message to Hüseyin Rauf (which number was updated to 500,000 by no other than Richard Hovannisian himself.
…shall continue…
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#420
Tuesday Dec 23
Part 28 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
You, too, can confront those loud, arrogant Armenian falsifiers who scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table:
“Enough is enough! Since you claim to know-it-all, why don’t you answer the following simple questions (and the previous ones, while at it) about the real Armenian history?”
As question pile up, from million different sources, another big picture emerges that contradicts the deceptive “poor, starving, helpless, unarmed Armenian” myth:
one of heavily armed, hate-filled, and motivated Armenian bands bent on killing Muslims, mostly Turks, in order to create a greater Armenia, with lots of active help from Britain, France, Russia and passive help from the U.S. diplomats, missionaries, and media, al having competing vested interests in the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.
Let’s continue reading the questions and the quotes:
97-“…In addition to other non-Ottoman lands, many thousands of Armenians had found refuge in (e.g., Iran, Greece), it becomes plain to see all the Armenian men could not have been murdered in one magical stroke, as Armenian propaganda tells us…”
Source: Akdes, Nimel Kurat, Turkey and Russia, Ankara, 1990, p.471
98- "… It is in our blood to hate the Turks. However, we hate Bulgarians and Greeks also. The Jews like Turks, but they hate Arabs. The Arabs, in their turn, are not in favour with the Turks. And the level of hatred is rising."
Source: Narek Mesropian, described as Armenia's poet laureate, in Golos Armenii, a Russian-language newspaper in Armenia, in an August 5, 1997 article reflecting the tension between the Armenian and Jewish communities. Interestingly, the Turks are not accused of hating anybody.
99-“…For too many years Armenian mothers had lulled their children to sleep with songs whose theme was Turkish fierceness and savagery…"
Source: Ohanus Appressian, lending testimony to how innocent Armenian children are subjected to the brutality of racism by their parents; their "Love NOT Thy Neighbor" churches are also known to join in this hatred bandwagon. Men Are Like That, 1926.
(Please note: This book was stolen from most libraries, presumably Armenian agents, because Armenians do not want the world to read this book. Today, you may see the book listed at a library, for example, but when you want to check it out, you will find out that it does not exist. We, Turkish-Americans, secured more than several good copies and are keeping them safely for future use. It is a wealth of knowledge that refute the bogus Armenian genocide forcefully.)
…shall continue…
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
Turkish politics observer
San Francisco, CA#421
Tuesday Dec 23
Ergun,
do you renounce the racist Fascist Can Aritman, or does she speak for you?
From Hurriyet this morning:
Several Turkish intellectuals have started a signature campaign with regards to the Armenian massacre in 1915, apologizing to Armenians. There have been mixed reactions to the campaign. While some have said they also felt sorry for what happened but did not feel personally responsible for something they did not take part in and never supported and so on, some ultra-nationalists among us have fiercely opposed the campaign and tried to belittle, to say the least, the signatories. But, there was one reaction from Republican People's Party (CHP)Y'zmir deputy Canan Ary'tman that deserves to be in the spotlight and given detailed treatment.
President Abdullah Gül was asked last week about the campaign, and he responded that there is freedom of speech in the country and everyone is entitled to their views. Ms. Ary'tman took this statement as rubberstamping the campaign and said that Mr. Gül should advocate for the Turkish people, not the Armenian nation. She then said there should be a reason behind Mr. Gül's so-called pro-Armenian stance, and she advised the press to research Mr. Gül's mother's ancestors, implying that Mr. Gül has Armenian blood.
Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#422
Tuesday Dec 23
Part 29 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
You, too, can confront those loud, arrogant Armenian falsifiers who scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table:
“Enough is enough! Since you claim to know-it-all, why don’t you answer the following simple questions (and the previous ones, while at it) about the real Armenian history?”
As question pile up, from million different sources, another big picture emerges that contradicts the deceptive “poor, starving, helpless, unarmed Armenian” myth:
one of heavily armed, hate-filled, and motivated Armenian bands bent on killing Muslims, mostly Turks, in order to create a greater Armenia, with lots of active help from Britain, France, Russia and passive help from the U.S. diplomats, missionaries, and media, al having competing vested interests in the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.
Let’s continue reading the questions and the quotes:
100- "... It's better that I be a dog or a cat, than a Turkish barbarian..."
Source: Edna Petrosyan, a SIX YEAR OLD Californian girl who recites hateful poems on the insistence of her mother. It is easy to see how this cycle of hate-perpetuation feeds the "Armenian Genocide" obsession for most Armenians. The Los Angeles Times, February 1, 1990. And then compare that to the writings of the Armenians in this column. You be the judge!
101-“…Who wants to defend Turks?"
Source: Pauline Kael, "When The Lights Go Down," 1980, p.499
102- "...In the early part of 1915, therefore, every Turkish city contained thousands of Armenians who had been trained as soldiers and who were supplied with rifles, pistols, and other weapons of defense. The operations at Van once more disclosed that these men could use their weapons to good advantage..."
Source: Henry Morganthau, U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, Ambassador Morgenthau's Story, Doubleday, Page & Co., Garden City, New York (1918), page 301
103-“…I have really found it impossible to sit down and dictate a letter quietly. So I have instructed (Hagop) Andonian to take my diary and copy it with some elaborations of his own. Of course this relieves me of all responsibility for any error."
Source: Henry Morganthau, U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire (Lowry, 1990; Franklin Delano Roosevelt Presidential Library, New York, Letters; Box 7 May 11, 1915; Box 1 2 September 1, 1915; Box 8 July 13, 1915)[Now you can understand why and how all those blatant Armenian lies found easy access to an American diplomat’s diary, and jumped from there into his published book, and from thereinto the world media. Lies spread like cancer... a transatlantic cancer...]
…shall continue…
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
Turkish politics 2
San Francisco, CA#423
Tuesday Dec 23
Ms. Ary'tman is doing Turkish democracy a service by drawing attention to the racist and fascist inheritance of her party, the CHP, which is the ideological successor of the Ottoman period's Union and Progress (Y'ttihad ve Terakki) Party. This party and its three leaders -- Enver Pa?a, Cemal Pasha and Talat Pasha -- are being held responsible for the Armenian massacre, for they ruled the country between 1908 and 1918, and they ordered the forced emigration of the Armenians from eastern Turkey, which resulted in many thousands of these Armenians dying because of the harsh conditions of murderous attacks by Ergenekon-like gangs.
The Union and Progress Party was established as an underground organization in the Balkans by over-enthusiastic Young Turks who were mostly either medical or military schools students or graduates. Most of these Young Turks were Turkish nationalists in the multiethnic Ottoman state. Similar to today's radical Islamists, who are mostly graduates of technical subjects, these Young Turks hated the ulema (religious scholars) for their moderate stance and despised the Ottoman rulers. As they were also mostly positivists, they did not believe in any religion but were ready to use it for instrumental purposes to mobilize the masses against the rulers. The Young Turks believed that the country was in danger, and indeed it was. But they also believed that to save the country, anything else was only a mere detail. By looking at what they did in retrospect, one understands that democracy, human rights, legitimacy, the sanctity of innocent lives, etc., were all ignorable details in the eyes of these Young Turks. After constantly criticizing Sultan Abdülhamid II's rule as undemocratic and repressive, these Young Turks pressured the sultan to start the second constitutional period in 1908.
After the elections, the Young Turks' Union and Progress Party came to power. In a very short time, they staged a military coup against the establishment, toppled the sultan, closed down all opposition parties and established a dictatorship. They followed very radical nationalist policies and did not allow any non-Turks to infiltrate their inner circle. Under their rule, the Ottoman state was dismantled, and they took us to war in 1914 to support the Germans. Their nationalist rhetoric disillusioned many loyal Arabs and other ethnic groups. When some Armenians started a rebellion for independence in eastern Turkey, the Young Turks reacted harshly and forcibly removed all Armenians from the region. After the establishment of the republic, their ideology, albeit in a modified form, continued with the CHP. What Ms. Ary'tman is doing today is simply revering her ideological and political Young Turk fathers and their "accomplishments."
For decades, people like Ms. Ary'tman have tried to convince Westerners that they were the only full-humans in the country and that they were trying to modernize the ignorant and obscurantist masses. They still have friends in Western quarters who call the Justice and Development Party (AK Party) leaders Islamo-fascists. We should thank Ms. Ary'tman for reminding us once again who the real fascists and racists were, obsessed with blood, in Turkey. When we know this history, we should not be surprised by the ultra-nationalist and racist rhetoric of Ergenekonians and their supporters among the elite circles.
Turkish politics 3
San Francisco, CA#424
Tuesday Dec 23
Ergun,
which side are you on?
Armenian Apology Causes Brawl in Turkish Parliament
ISTANBUL (Marmara)--A Turkish parliament member's request Sunday that the legislature apologize to Armenians for the “events of 1915” has caused an uproar in parliament, with members hurling personal insults at one another.
Democratic Society Party (DTP) member Osman Euzcelik brought the matter up during parliament's discussion of the education ministry budget and went on to recall the Armenian massacres by using the Kurdish word that describes Genocide.
He also said that he had heard stories about the Armenian killings as child growing up in Turkey and added that the killings were planned by the sultan of the Ottoman Empire and were carried out by groups called Hamiddiye, which also had Kurdish members.
“These groups killed a large number of Armenians. A lot of times they would line up the Armenians and shoot them in the chest. All Armenians of Martin were killed and some fled to Syria,” said Euzcelik, who added that his grandfather's family provided refuge for Genocide survivors.
Nevzad Pakdil, who was presiding over the parliament session, interrupted Euzcelik, blasting him for “insulting the society in which you live.”
Euzcelik said that he was apologizing to Armenians on his own behalf.
Pakdil intervened again attempting to stifle the parliament member. Members of the Justice and Development Party (AKP) applauded the Pakdil while another DTP member, Surru Saken directed his anger to Paktdil by saying,“Mr. Chairman, you represent the Marash district and you know full well the extent of the tragedy that unfolded there.”
This comment prompted a member of the AKP to walk toward DTP members and begin screaming at his fellow parliamentarians. Another parliament member intervened to stop what could have become a physical altercation.
“Should we not talk about the facts? There is not one Assyrian left,” screamed another DTP member during the commotion, which was followed by several DTP members leaving the parliament.
Earlier in October, DTP leader, Ahmet Turk, denounced the government's policy regarding the Kurdish issue, describing it as “cultural and societal genocide."
"The policy of denial, assimilation and eradication has affected people. Only the Kurds resisted. They still resist," Turk told demonstrators in the south-eastern city of Diyarbakir on October 22.
DTP, the country's main Kurdish party, has been under siege by the Turkish government, facing a possible ban by the constitutional court in what is widely recognized as being a politically charged case aimed at decapitating the party.
Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#425
Tuesday Dec 23
Part 30 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
You, too, can confront those loud, arrogant Armenian falsifiers who scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table:
“Enough is enough! Since you claim to know-it-all, why don’t you answer the following simple questions (and the previous ones, while at it) about the real Armenian history?”
As question pile up, from million different sources, another big picture emerges that contradicts the deceptive “poor, starving, helpless, unarmed Armenian” myth:
one of heavily armed, hate-filled, and motivated Armenian bands bent on killing Muslims, mostly Turks, in order to create a greater Armenia, with lots of active help from Britain, France, Russia and passive help from the U.S. diplomats, missionaries, and media, al having competing vested interests in the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.
Let’s continue reading the questions and the quotes:
104-“…It is to be hoped that the future historian will not give too much heed to the drivel one finds in the books of diplomatist-authors."
Source: George A. Schreiner, American War/Political Correspondent, "The Craft Sinister: A Diplomatico-Political History of the Great War and its Causes,(G. Albert Gayer, New York, 1920)"; Schreiner criticized Ambassador Morgenthau in a letter, aware of the Ambassador's fabrications in "Ambassador Morgenthau's Story."
105-“…True friendship among Armenians is a rare thing indeed...Hatred and envy: they seem to come naturally to us..."
Source: Ara Baliozian, Armenian writer
106-“…Every Armenian has another Armenian whom he considers his mortal enemy…An Armenian's worst enemies are not odars but Armenians." ("Odars" : foreigners)…Our perpetual enemy — the enemy that will eventually destroy us — is not the Turk but our own complacent superficiality…What kind of people are we?... Instead of reason, blind instinct. Instead of common sense, fanaticism…. Our past is filled with countless instances of betrayal and treachery..."
Source: Various Armenian writers, quoted by Ara Baliozian
107-“…In life, questions outnumber answers. Case in point: If they are bloodthirsty savages, why did they wait for 600 years to slaughter us?..."
Source: Ara Baliozian, from a Yahoo group, August 2007.
…shall continue…
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#426
Tuesday Dec 23
Part 31 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
You, too, can confront those loud, arrogant Armenian falsifiers who scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table:
“Enough is enough! Since you claim to know-it-all, why don’t you answer the following simple questions (and the previous ones, while at it) about the real Armenian history?”
As question pile up, from million different sources, another big picture emerges that contradicts the deceptive “poor, starving, helpless, unarmed Armenian” myth:
one of heavily armed, hate-filled, and motivated Armenian bands bent on killing Muslims, mostly Turks, in order to create a greater Armenia, with lots of active help from Britain, France, Russia and passive help from the U.S. diplomats, missionaries, and media, al having competing vested interests in the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.
Let’s continue reading the questions and the quotes:
108- "...When Turkey had not yet entered the war...Armenian volunteer groups began to be organized with great zeal and pomp in Trans Caucasia. In spite of the decision taken a few weeks before at the General Committee in Erzurum, the Dashnagtzoutune actively helped the organization of the aforementioned groups, and especially arming them, against Turkey. In the Fall of 1914, Armenian volunteer groups were formed and fought against the Turks..."
Source: Hovhannes Katchaznouni, First Prime Minister of the Independent Armenian Republic, The Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, 1923.(The Armenian Revolutionary Federation Has Nothing to Do Any More, New York, Armenian Information Service, 1955, p. 5.) "Practically all of the (volunteers were) Turkish Armenians," The New York Times reported, in 1915.
109-“…[One of the main aspects of Armenian] national psychology...[is] to seek external causes for [Armenian ] misfortune…. One might think we found a spiritual consolation in the conviction that the Russians behaved villainously towards us."
Source: Hovhannes Katchaznouni, First Prime Minister of the Independent Armenian Republic, The Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni,1923, Page 8.(Holdwater: After the Russians, it would be the turn of the French, the Americans, the British, the Georgians, the Azerbaijanis — the whole world.)
110- "...Kachaznuni's government... like the wolf, eats the calf because such is its nature. That government could not live in peace and was obsessed with battling one or another of its neighbors, for like the wolf, it had to devour everything. Should not the Armenians have realized that, in view of their hostile relations with the Muslims, they must at least cling to the friendship of (Christian) Georgia? But instead they had now burned this bridge as well..."
Source: Premier Noizhordonia of Georgia, three days after Armenia attempted a land grab attempt via a surprise and unprovoked attack on its neighbor, on December 14, 1918; as reported by Professor Richard Hovannisian in his book, The Republic of Armenia, Vol. 1. Armenia would be more successful in its land grab attempt against neighbor Azerbaijan some seventy years later... in the manner of another "Pearl Harbor"-like sneak and cowardly attack, with huge monetary backing from the Russians and Americans.
…shall continue…
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
Turkish politics 3
San Francisco, CA#427
Tuesday Dec 23
We should thank Ms. Ary'tman for reminding us once again who the real fascists and racists were, obsessed with blood, in Turkey. When we know this history, we should not be surprised by the ultra-nationalist and racist rhetoric of Ergenekonians and their supporters among the elite circles.
whom do you serve, Ergun?
Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#428
Tuesday Dec 23
Part 31 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
You, too, can confront those loud, arrogant Armenian falsifiers who scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table:
“Enough is enough! Since you claim to know-it-all, why don’t you answer the following simple questions (and the previous ones, while at it) about the real Armenian history?”
As question pile up, from million different sources, another big picture emerges that contradicts the deceptive “poor, starving, helpless, unarmed Armenian” myth:
one of heavily armed, hate-filled, and motivated Armenian bands bent on killing Muslims, mostly Turks, in order to create a greater Armenia, with lots of active help from Britain, France, Russia and passive help from the U.S. diplomats, missionaries, and media, al having competing vested interests in the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.
Let’s continue reading the questions and the quotes:
111-“…The Turks are a human cancer, a creeping agony in the flesh of the lands they misgovern, rotting every fiber of life. I am glad that the Turk is to be called to a final account (referring to the impending Greek invasion of Asia Minor ) for his long record of infamy against humanity."
Source: David Lloyd George, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, getting ready to annihilate the last remnants of the dying Ottoman Empire.(I am sure the Armenian writers here would approve of all the racist stereotyping here, that is if their posts are any guide.)
112-“…The centuries rarely produce a genius. Look at this bad luck of ours, that great genius of our era was granted to the Turkish nation (referring to Ataturk)."
Source: David Lloyd George, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, after his nation's plans to wipe Turkey off the face of the earth ran into a snag.(The reasons I included this here is that most Armenians love to demonize Ataturk, but look at what a major Armenian mentor thought of Ataturk, not that history needs DL George to record Ataturk as one of the greatest leaders.)
113-“…“[N]one of the data provided by the archives of any of the Entente powers, the wartime enemies of the Ottoman Empire, can be viewed as entirely impeccable”
Source: Vahakn Dadrian, "The Armenian Genocide: A New Brand of Denial by the Turkish General Staff — by Proxy,” Sept. 21, 2004
114-“…When the Russians and the Turks became enemies at war in 1914, the Armenians sided with the Russians. As soon as word spread that the Armenians were massacring Moslem Turks and Kurds and were setting up an Armenian government in Van, the Young Turks passed a law to disarm and deport them. This turned into the 1915-1916 migrations and massacres of Armenians, and was followed by counter-massacres of Muslims by Russo-Armenian forces occupying eastern Turkey n 1917-18."
Source: Eleanor Bisbee, "The New Turks,"
University of Pennsylvania, 1951, p. 49 (What genocide? It is clearly a tit-for-tat, a terrible civil war within a world war, causing great suffering to all Anatolians, not just Armenians. The key: Armenians fired the first shot and waged rebellions, terrorized the countryside, and resorted to supreme treason. Turks were only defending their home.)
… the expose shall continue…
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
Turkish politics 3
San Francisco, CA#429
Tuesday Dec 23
We should thank Ms. Ary'tman for reminding us once again who the real fascists and racists were, obsessed with blood, in Turkey. When we know this history, we should not be surprised by the ultra-nationalist and racist rhetoric of Ergenekonians and their supporters among the elite circles.
whom do you serve, Ergun?
Ergun, can you point out a single racist thing I or any other poster has written/
Lemkin on the AG
San Francisco, CA#430
Tuesday Dec 23
The history of the atrocious crime perpetrated by the Turks in 1915 which claimed the lives of more than one million Armenians has been substantially enriched by the recent publication in Vienna (Imprimerie Mechithariste, Les Memoires de Mgr. Jean Naslian, 2 vols., 1639 pages, in French) of the memories of a remarkable catholic spiritual leader Monsignor Jean Naslian, the late Bishop of Trebizonde. The Armenians as a community are known to be very religious, and in the supreme test of their lives they clung closely to their spiritual leaders, whether of the Armenian Apostolic Church, Roman Catholic or Protestant faiths.
These leaders did not fail their flocks. Monsignor Naslian describes the plight of his people in great detail. He places responsibility for the origin of the plan to destroy the Armenian people on the young Turkish committee called Ittihad, a political party which became prominent in Turkey in 1912. It was a very nationalistic movement which wanted to effect the fusion of all races and religions into one homogeneous entity, the Turkish nation which would reign supreme. There was no room in it’s new creation for the ancient Armenian people whose first trace of historical existence goes back to the 15th century BC. The Armenians in Turkey had grown into a highly cultured, cohesive, industrious and prosperous community which could not easily be integrated.
The first ominous sign came into deportations from Constantinople of 270 Armenians-intellectuals, writers, artists, editors, teachers- into the interior of Turkey, where most of them were immediately massacred. In order to deprive the Armenians in other parts of Turkey of their leadership as well, the Armenians intellectuals elsewhere were arrested at the same time. With one blow the brain of a people was damaged. From this deported group, Aram Andonian survived to publish after the first World War a book with authenticated documents revealing the governmental orders for these massacres. In the course of the war he managed to send information to America (this reviewer had the privilege of meeting Andonian and obtaining from him a rare publication on the Armenian case).
The second phase of destruction came soon when the Armenian population was rounded up in all cities of interior Turkey and marched into the Syrian desert. During this march most of them were mowed down by the guns of the escorting police. Pope Benedict XV intervened on behalf of the Armenians but succeeded only in preventing the mass destruction of the Armenians in the capital city of Constantinople.
The US ambassador in Turkey, Henry Morgenthau did a yeoman’s job in attempting to save the Armenians. He got nowhere, however, with the Minister of Interior, Taalat Pasha. In his own memoirs the former American ambassador relates that Taalat Pasha told him that insurance policies were found on some Armenian corpses which were taken out on some insurance companies in Hartford, Connecticut. Since these were the insurance policies belonging to Turkish citizens, Taalat Pasha reasoned, the American Ambassador should help to get the money from the insurance companies for the Turkish government. The ambassador was incensed at this request and of course refused.
Those further interested in the Armenian tragedy should read the collection of documents by Johannes Lepsius of Berlin, called Deutschland und Armenian. Lepsius was the man who stormed the foreign offices of Turkey and Germany (both allies in World War I) to save the Armenians.
Lemkin on the AG 2
San Francisco, CA#431
Tuesday Dec 23
Monsignor Naslian ascribes a great part of the motivation of the crime to economic reasons. All the long-coveted property of the victims was taken over by the Turks they enriched themselves through the murder of a people.
In terms of the larger issues involved, the losses in culture through the genocide of the Armenian people in Turkey were staggering. The
Armenians, as the intellectual core of Turkey, were in possession of valuable personal libraries, archives, and historical manuscripts, which were dispersed and lost. Churches, convents, and monuments of artistic and historical value were destroyed.
Monsignor Naslian did not simply suffer in silence during these agonizing times. He was informing the outside world as best he could through church connections. After World War I he joined the national delegation of Armenians in Paris and tried to arouse the conscience of the western world for the Armenian cause. Like most of the men who get for their own lives a high goal, he died a disappointed man. He felt that the European powers tried to use the Armenians for their own ends, letting them die when help might have been possible, and then forgetting the whole tragedy in order to escape their own conscience.
Although he does not show hatred, maintaining throughout a judicious objectivity and a trust in God’s judgment, Monsignor Naslian expresses one feeling which is especially close to the heart of the reviewer. This is that the victims of the genocide throughout the ages have filled history with their sufferings to such an extent that mankind can no longer escape the recognition of either the consequence or the moral responsibility. In this sense every community which has fallen victim of genocide acts as Christ carrying the cross to Golgotha. The result has been an ever stronger articulation of human conscience culminating finally in the enactment of an international law against this foul crime-the United Nations Convention Against Genocide, now ratified by 58 nations. The sufferings of the Armenian men, women, and children thrown into the Euphrates River or massacred on the way to Der-el-Zor have prepared the way for the adoption for the Genocide Convention by the United Nations and have morally compelled Turkey to ratify it.
This is the reason why the Armenians of the entire world were specifically interested in the Genocide Convention. They filled the galleries of the drafting committee at the third General Assembly of the United Nations in Paris when the Genocide Convention was discussed. An Armenian, Levon Keshishian, the well-known U.N. correspondent for Arab newspapers, helped considerably through his writings in obtaining the ratifications of many Near Eastern and North African countries.
One million Armenians died, but a law against the murder of peoples was written with the ink of their blood and the spirit of their sufferings.
To this the two well-documented volumes of Monsignor Naslian bear powerful witness for history.
Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#432
Tuesday Dec 23
Part 32 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
You, too, can confront those Armenian falsifiers and terrorists who love to scream genocide in your face while pounding their shoes on your kitchen table:
“Enough is enough! Since you claim to know-it-all, why don’t you answer the following simple questions (and the previous ones, while at it) about the real Armenian history?”
As new and unanswered questions pile up and up, from million different sources, another big picture slowly emerges that totally contradicts the “poor, starving, helpless, unarmed Armenian” myth:
A new reality sinks in… One of heavily armed, hate-filled, and motivated Armenian bands bent on killing Muslims, mostly Turks, in order to create a greater Armenia, with lots of active help from Britain, France, Russia and passive help from the U.S. diplomats, missionaries, and media, al having competing vested interests in the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.
Let’s continue with the expose, shall we?
115-“…I am informed, on good authority, that Russia is already commencing her usual intrigues among the Armenians of Asiatic Turkey. Russian agents are being sent into the provinces inhabited by them with the object of stirring up discontent against the rule and authority of the Porte. A Russian party is being formed in the capital amongst the Armenians, which already includes some leading and influential members of that community."
Source: Sir Henry Layard, British Ambassador, in a July 14, 1878 message to British Foreign Secretary Lord Salisbury (British Foreign Office 424/72, pages 160-161, No 211)
116-“…The aim of the Armenian revolutionaries is to stir disturbances, to get the Ottomans to react to violence, and thus get the foreign powers to intervene…"
Source: Sir Philip Currie, the British Ambassador in Istanbul, 28 March 1894 (British Blue Book, Nr.6 1894, p.57? Or p. 87 – kind of difficult to read).
117-“…Their object has plainly been, by creating an appearance of widespread disaffection, quite out of proportion to their numbers and influence to provoke reprisals on the part of the Turkish Government and people, of a nature to draw the attention of the Powers to the manifest grievances of the Armenian nation, and the necessity for their redressal.”
Source: Graves, the British Consul in Erzurum, reporting to the British Ambassador in Istanbul, on January 28, 1895. British Blue Book, Nr. 6 (1894), pp. 222-223
118-“…The Dashnaks and Hunchaks have terrorized their own countrymen, they have stirred up the Muslim people with their thefts and insanities, and have paralyzed all efforts made to carry out reforms; all the events that have taken place in Anatolia are the responsibility of the crimes committed by the Armenian revolutionary committees..."
Source: Williams, The British vice-consul, writing from Van.(March 4, 1896, British Blue Book, Nr. 8 1896, p.108.)
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#433
Tuesday Dec 23
Part 33 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations.
They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification. Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face.
Let’s continue with the expose, shall we?
119-“…Those who in England are loudest in their sympathy with the aspirations of a(n Armenian) people ‘rightly struggling to be free’ can hardly have realized the atrocious methods of terrorism and blackmail by which a handful of desperados, as careful of their own safety as they are reckless of the lives of others, have too successfully coerced their unwilling compatriots into complicity with an utterly hopeless conspiracy."
Source: Lord Warkworth, after paying a visit to Van.( William Langer, The Diplomacy of Imperialism.)
120-“…'I do not deny the existence and the active propagandism of Armenian revolutionarists. I do not even deny that, to some extent, the religious war has been stimulated by Armenian political agitators.''
Source: Antranig Azhderian, "The Turk and the Land of Haig, or Turkey and Armenia - Desciptive, Historical, and Picturesque," The Mershong Company, New York, 1898, p. 364.
121-“…Our policy is to maintain our gratefulness to Russia, but at the same time induce Britain to help our cause. Our well-being is possible only in an independent Armenia. Do not be surprised at the word, for our motto is this:'an Armenia ruled by Armenians'."
122-“… I will speak a language the whole world knows, a language expressing pain and suffering. In other words, I will weep."
Source: Nerses Varjabedian, Armenian Patriarch, when asked how he could undertake a political mission during the Congress of Berlin (1878) without knowing a foreign language. The significance in his reply is that he summed up that all too familiar Armenian boo-hoo'ing strategy to gain attention, in a nutshell. "The Armenians in History and the Armenian Question," Esat Uras, p. 498. Footnote appearing to represent the passage reads K. Mikaelian, The Will of the People, Istanbul, 1909, p.45; in Armenian.
Source: Nerses Varjabedian, Armenian Patriarch, writing in 1878 to Karakin (Garegin) Papazian, the head of the Armenian Committee in Manchester, England; while Armenians began to approach the Tsar for eventual Armenian independence, and of attempting to bring Britain into the picture.(Ermeniler ve 1915 Tehcir Olayi/Armenians and the 1915 Resettlement Episode, Prof. Azmi Süslü,1990, p.45
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
jda
San Mateo, CA#434
Wednesday Dec 24
and this disproves the otherwise documented mass killings of women and children under state guard how, exactly?
Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#435
Wednesday Dec 24
Part 34 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification.
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
Let’s continue with the expose, shall we?
123-“…The Turks... themselves are Armenians by birth and origin…"
Source: Migirdich Khrimian, Armenian Patriarch and Catholicos; letter written 24 June 1878 in the Grand Hotel de Rome, Berlin, setting forth demands at the Congress. The letter "confidently" claimed Armenians "constitute three-fifths of the population," and that the Powers should therefore approve "the administration of Armenia." "The Turks would have no objection," he wrote, for they also are Armenians. Quoted from "The Armenians in History and the Armenian Question," Esat Uras, p. 484; Bishop Mushegh, Armenian Immigrants in Manchester, Boston, 1911, p. 82-85 [Armenian].
124-“…The purpose of the Armenian movement has been, from the beginning, to organize as far as possible a long drawn-out fight against the Ottoman tyranny, to create in the country a continuous revolutionary state, always having before our eyes the intervention of the third factor...the European factor…"
Source: Mikael Varandian, Dashnak ideologue, History of the Dashnagtzoutune/A.R.Federation (Paris,1932 and Cairo,1950), p.3; also, from p. 302:(By inciting massacres, Armenians) "wanted to assure European intervention"
125-“…(The Dashnaks)’ aim was by crimes and assassinations to invite Turkish reprisals and massacres, and thus create an international scandal that would attract the intervention of the other powers…"
Source: David Thompson, "Europe Since Napoleon" (Alfred A. Knopf, 1964, 2nd. Ed.)
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
Racist tracker
San Mateo, CA#436
Wednesday Dec 24
COMEDY THAT'S NOT SO FUNNY
TURKEY; THE GOLDEN ERA OF RACISM AND NAZI POLITICS
RESERVATIONS NOW BEING ACCEPTED FOR WAFFEN SS RETIREES:
Ergun, did you also matriculate in the Turkish school system?
The fascist and racist legislator Canan Aritman, MD, thinks that Armenian DNA can be determined:
CHP deputy insists on DNA tests for president
ANKARA - The dispute between a main opposition deputy and President Abdullah Gül over the latter’s ethnic origin took on another dimension with the request of a DNA test from Gül to prove his ethnic background.
Canan Arıtman, the İzmir deputy of the Republican People’s Party, or CHP, said Gül had Armenian roots, which is why he has not openly rejected the apology campaign carried out by a group of intellectuals. In a counter-statement Gül said his family was 100 percent Muslim and Turk and filed a lawsuit against Arıtman.
"Today, ethnic origin does not gain legal and scientific validity through family trees, but through DNA tests," Arıtman said in her written statement late Monday. "Birth records during the Ottomans were based on declarations and while recording non-Muslims, the state used to write a Muslim name as the father’s name. Thus, nobody can prove their ethic identity through a family tree."
Arıtman said it was Gül’s prerogative to file a suit against her and that she was not after anyone’s DNA results, but in the event of a judicial process, she would have to produce documents and witnesses. She also said she expected the president to say the Turkish nation had not committed any crime of genocide. Many nations owe an apology to our nation, but we do not owe an apology to anybody.
Constitutional duty
"I do not think I have requested a difficult thing. This is the president’s constitutional duty. If he does not perform this task, he commits a crime against the Constitution and he should resign," she said. In protest over Gül’s approach to an apology campaign concerning World War I-era killings of Armenians at the hands of the Ottoman Empire, Arıtman said Gül was a secret Armenian. Thus, Gül filed a suit against Arıtman on the grounds her statements harm the notion that the president stands an equal distance from his or her citizens.
Arıtman has been harshly criticized by many, even members of her own party, for attacking the president with a racist motive. The CHP has warned Arıtman, but has not yet taken disciplinary action.
Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#437
Wednesday Dec 24
Part 35 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification.
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
Let’s continue with the expose, shall we?
126-“…The Dashnak revolutionary society is working to stir up a situation in which Muslims and Armenians will attack each other, and thus pave the way for Russian intervention… "
Source: General Mayewski, Russian Consul General in Bitlis and Van, December 1912; source: Kara Schemsi, Turcs et Armeniens devant l'Histoire, Geneve, Imprimerie Nationale, 1919, p. 11
127-“…Armenians had people organized under the Turkish flag" (in Bitlis and Van, eastern Anatolia)
Source: Dashnak report prepared in 1910 by M. Warandian (likely Mikael Varandian) for submission to the organization's convention in Copenhagen's Socialist International; from the archives (No. B.579238) of the Socialist International in Vandervelde, and mentioned in an article written by Orhan Kologlu in the April 2005 issue of the Turkish magazine, "Populer Tarih" (Popular History)... confirming that Armenian preparations for revolt were in the works years before the outbreak of W.W.I.
128-“…When I say that the Armenian massacres were caused by the Armenian revolutionists, I tell the truth, and a very important one, but it is not the whole truth. It would be more correct to say that the presence of the revolutionists gave occasion and excuse for the massacres. That the Turks were looking for an excuse, no one can doubt who has traversed that country."
Source: George Hughes Hepworth, "Through Armenia on Horseback" (NY, 1898, p. 339); and why would the Turks have suddenly been looking for an excuse, after centuries of peaceful coexistence? Moreover, if massacre was so decided upon, would the Turks have needed an excuse? While traveling on horseback, Hepworth no doubt encountered negative opinions on Armenians from Turks, but by this time, there were years of Armenian violence and massacre trying the Turks' patience. The inevitable conclusion: if not for the revolutionists, there would have been no massacres.
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
reader
San Francisco, CA#438
Wednesday Dec 24
Ergun,
The Genocide commenced in 1915, even tho the Hamidian massacres were Genocidal in nature.
Killing women, children, babies and disarmed men under state control and guard is genocide,
provocation, impatience or just plain old unhappiness is not an affirmative defense to the murder of a person or of anation.
Have a happy Islamofascist Christmas.
Hang a few Crusaders on your barbed wire ornaments, right next to the card from Dr Aritman, master physician. By the way, the CUP leaders often had med school degrees.
Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#439
Wednesday Dec 24
Part 36 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification.
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
Let’s continue with the expose, shall we?
129-“…'Do you believe that any massacres would have taken place if no Armenian revolutionaries had come into the country and incited the Armenian population to rebellion?' I asked Mr. Graves [The British consul].'Certainly not,' he replied.'I do not believe that a single Armenian would have been killed.' "
Source: Sydney Whitman, "Turkish Memories," London, 1914, p. 74 (Armenian war crimes still go unacknowledged today, let alone punished.)
130-“…The Armenian issue, which aims at meeting the economic interests of the capitalist world rather than bearing in mind the veritable interests of the Armenians themselves was best resolved with the Kars Agreement. The friendly ties between two industrious people coexisting peacefully for centuries have been satisfactorily established anew.”
Source: Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, Inaugural Speech of the 3rd Year of Session of the Turkish Grand National Assembly, 1 March 1922.
131-“…In fact we have an organization extraordinarily widespread in the United States.... It should be noticed that no attack has been made upon us in any quarter of the United States, and that in the eyes of the American people the quiet and subterranean nature of our work has the appearance of a purely private patriotism and enterprise."
Source: Sir Gilbert Parker in a letter to the British Foreign Office. By 1917, the Canadian managing Wellington House's U.S.A. branch had a list of 170,000 to send anti-German and anti-Turkish propaganda to the Who's Who of American society, targeting "every editor and molder of public opinion."
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#440
Wednesday Dec 24
Part 37 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification.
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
Let’s continue with the expose, shall we?
132-“…Armenians lived as local notables. They had no feeling of national unity. There were no political bonds or ties among them. Their only attachments were to the neighbouring notables. Thus whatever national feelings they had were local."
Source: Kevork Aslan, Armenian historian, L'Armenie et les Armeniens, Istanbul, 1914 (No wonder they had no loyalty...)
133-“…Wholly opportunistic, Dashnag politics have been variously pro-Nazi, pro-Russia, pro-Soviet Armenia, pro-Arab, pro-Jewish, as well as anti-Jewish, anti-Zionist, anti-Communist, and anti-Soviet — whichever was expedient…"
Source: John Roy Carlson (Arthur Derounian), author, Cairo to Damascus Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1951, p. 438. Not all Armenians support the Dashnaks (Carlson was a true Armenian patriot for disliking these scoundrels, who brought such misery to so many), but the Dashnak terrorist method has been to silence all opposing voices. Those who are silent, comply.
134-“… Should the Armenians ever get the upper hand in Anatolia, their government would be much more corrupt than the actual administration. It was corroborated by the Armenians themselves..."
Source: Fred Burnaby, "On Horseback Through Asia Minor" (While it sounds like the author could be talking about current Armenia, the book detailed an 1876 journey to see whether the Sultan's armies were capable of resisting yet another Russian thrust.)
135-“…The Turks and Armenians got on excellently together... The Russians restricted the Armenian Church, schools and language; the Turks on the contrary were perfectly tolerant and liberal as to all such matters. They did not care how the Armenians prayed, taught and talked... The Armenians were thorough Orientals and appreciated Turkish ideas and habits...(They) were quite content to live among the Turks.... The balance of wealth certainly remained with the Christians. The Turks treated them with good-humoured confidence..."
Source: Sir Charles Eliot, author, "Turkey in Europe" (London, E. Arnold, 1900); regarding the years preceding the Turkish-Russian War of 1877-78.(Millennium of religious liberty and what do Turks get from Armenians in return? Murderous ingrates!)
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
reader
San Francisco, CA#441
Wednesday Dec 24
Ergot,
Looks like you're getting your quotes all screwed up.
You harp on Topalian, whose conviction does not disprove Genocide. But if a 1998 conviction was probative, then I guess yesterday's conviction of an Islamist Turk and his playmates proves it:
ISTANBUL - Five Muslim immigrants, including Turkish-born convenience store clerk Serdar Tatar, were convicted of plotting to massacre U.S. soldiers at a New Jersey military installation that prosecutors described as a bid to wage Islamist holy war against America. The men could get life in prison when they are sentenced in April.
The five, who lived in and around Philadelphia for years, were found guilty of conspiring to kill U.S. military personnel. But they were acquitted of attempted murder, after prosecutors acknowledged the men were probably months away from an attack on Fort Dix and did not necessarily have a specific plan. Four defendants were also convicted of weapons charges, according to The Associated Press. The federal jury deliberated for 38 hours over six days.
Serpil Tatar, sister of defendant Serdar Tatar, called the conviction "a big lie" that had undermined her faith in the United States, reported Reuters. She denied her brother was a terrorist, saying: "My brother was crying for the people who died on Sept. 11."
Convicted were: Tatar, Turkish-born convenience store clerk; Mohamad Shnewer, a Jordanian-born cab driver and brothers Dritan, Eljvir and Shain Duka, ethnic Albanians from the former Yugoslavia, who had a roofing business. A sixth man arrested and charged only with firearms offenses pleaded guilty earlier.
The government said after the arrests in 2007 that case underscored the dangers of terrorist plots hatched on U.S. soil. Although investigators said the conspirators were inspired by Osama bin Laden, they were not accused of any ties to foreign terror groups. Lawyers argued that the alleged plot was all talk - that the men weren't seriously planning anything and that they were manipulated and goaded by two paid FBI informants.
"These criminals had the capacity and had done preparations to do serious and grievous harm to members of our military," Ralph Marra, the acting U.S. attorney for New Jersey, said after the verdict.
’Acting stupid’
But some Muslim leaders in New Jersey disputed that.
"I don't think they actually mean to do anything," said Mohamed Younes, president of the American Muslim Union. "I think they were acting stupid, like they thought the whole thing was a joke."
Jim Sues, executive director of the New Jersey chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said: "Many people in the Muslim community will see this as a case of entrapment. From what I saw, there was a significant role played by the government informant."
According to prosecutors, the group chose the Army post at Fort Dix because Turkish-born Tatar was familiar with it. His father's pizza shop delivered to the New Jersey base, which is 25 miles (40 kilometers) from Philadelphia and used primarily to train reservists for duty in Iraq.
I guess it was "kinda stupid" to make plans to buy the machine gun.
Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#442
Wednesday Dec 24
Part 38 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification.
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
Let’s continue with the expose, shall we?
136-“…(The religious toleration of the Ottoman Government) "was complete" (and the state) "never in any way interfered with what the Christians did or taught in the schools or the churches.... it was impossible to desire more absolute liberty of worship or teaching..”
Source: Gratan Geary, "Through Asiatic Turkey" (London, M.S. and R. Sampson, 1878)[A millennium of religious liberty in exchange for what? Rebellions, terrorism, treason, propaganda, and lies… Ingrates!)
137-“…(Armenian) prosperity grew until, by the middle of the 19th century, they became one of the richest communities of the Ottoman empire, prominent not only in trade and professions, but also in the service of state."
Source: Dr. Andrew Mango, March 15, 2001 speech at the Society for the Promotion of Democratic Principles, in Istanbul (Milliennium of peace and prosperity to Armenians and what do Turks get in return? Backstabbing… Ingrates!)
138-“…Armenians are so pleased with their lives that this is impossible."
Source: French Ambassador in Istanbul, in response to Napoleon Bonaparte's query to induce rebellion among the Ottoman Empire's Catholic Armenians and take a kind of revenge for the Akka defeat.
139-“…The great Turk is governing in peace twenty nations from different religions. Turks have taught the Christians how to be moderate in peace and gentle in victory…"
Source: Voltaire Yes, the 18th Century François-Marie Arouet French Enlightenment writer, essayist, and philosopher known for his wit, philosophical sport, and defense of civil liberties, including freedom of religion and free trade. What did Turks get for their millennium of tolerance and protection? Disloyalty and subversion… Ingrates!)
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#443
Wednesday Dec 24
Part 39 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification.
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
Let’s continue with the expose, shall we?
140-“…Correct behavior…"
Source: Marechal Franchet d'Esperay, a French commander of the allied occupation army, referring to the Turkish people and military authorities. From the preface of Commander Larcher's "The Turkish War within the First World War."
141-“…We have studied the Turkish peasant — i.e. the mass of the Turkish people — and got to know him as unconditionally one of the bravest and most moral representatives of the European peasantry…"
Source: Karl Marx. speaking for himself and Engels, "Karl Marx: His Life and Thought," David McLellan, 1973, pp. 438-439
142-“…[The Turks] are the most honest and moral of the Orientals..."
Source: Elder Tanner, Mormon missionary, "Who Can be So Polite and Courteous As a Turk," Millenial Star, June 22, 1886). The Mormon missionaries were not as bigoted as Protestant and Catholic ones.
143-“…Courageous in misfortune, uncomplaining under the most awful suffering, good-humoured in every situation ... it is deeply painful to think that the men whom I almost idealized should lie under the accusation of the atrocities which we must believe have been committed in 1896. Yet through the black cloud that hangs over the Turkish Empire today I can still discern the distant stars; for I can look back with honest pride to the high sense of honour, the dauntless courage, the loyalty and true patriotism of those who were my comrades ... in the earlier and brighter days…”
Source; Charles S. Ryan, "Under the Red Crescent," 1897, p. 425.
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#444
Wednesday Dec 24
Part 40 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification.
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
Let’s continue with the expose, shall we?
144-“…And in 1875 the empire was forced to declare bankruptcy… In the last years of the empire, a French firm offered half a million francs to turn 150.000 street dogs in Istanbul into gloves. The Sultan — very hard pressed for cash — nobly refused. The dogs were locked up in an old tramp steamer and transported, howling and fighting to a waterless island (Hayirsizada) where they were turned loose…"
Source: Jason Goodwin, "Lords of the Horizons," Henry Holt Co, NY, pgs. 311, 325.
145-“…The Protestant missionaries distributed in large numbers to various places in Turkey made propaganda in favour of England and stirred the Armenians to desire autonomy under British protection…"
Source: Horen Ashikian, The Armenian Patriarch, in "History of Armenia." (Mr. Ashikian was probably quoted, and was not the writer of this book, of which there were several... by process of elimination, the book was probably either the 1936 one written by V.C. Vahan, or one by Vahan Kurjian, in 1958. Hovhannes, the Fifth Catholicos of the Armenians, also wrote a book by the same name in 1912.)
146-“…(Turkish Sultan) Meliksah's heart is full of affection and goodwill for Christians, he has treated the sons of Jesus Christ very well, and he has given the Armenian people peace, affluence and happiness…”
Source: Mathias of Edessa, Armenian historian, Chronicles, Nr. 129 (And what did the Armenians give Turks in return? Bloodshed, backstabbing, and suffering… Ingrates!)
147-“… How well the Seljuk Turks treated the Armenians is shown by the fact that some Armenian noble families like the Tashrik family accepted Islam on their own free will and joined the Turks in fighting Byzantium..."
Source: Mathias of Edessa, Armenian historian, probably in his Chronicles, Nr. 129; after the death of Sultan Kilic Arslan, the same Armenian historian also wrote, "Kilic Arslan's death has driven Christians into mourning since he was a charitable person of high caliber and character."
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#445
Wednesday Dec 24
Part 41 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification.
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
Let’s continue with the expose, shall we?
148-“… The Armenians of Byzantium have welcomed the Seljuk conquest with lengthy celebrations in the streets and thanksgiving to God for having rescued them from long years of Byzantine oppression. Seljuk Turks gave protection to the Armenian Church, which the Byzantines had been trying to destroy. They abolished the oppressive taxes which the Byzantines had imposed on the Armenian Churches, monasteries and priests, and in fact exempted such religious institutions from all taxes. The Armenian community was left free to conduct its internal affairs in its own way, including religious activities and education, and there never was any time at which Armenians or other non-Muslims were compelled to convert to Islam. The Armenian spiritual leaders in fact went to the Seljuk Sultan Melikshah to thank him for his protection..."
Source: Stephanos Taronetsi ASOGHIK, Armenian historian who recorded his impressions on the arrival of Seljuk Turks to Anatolia around 1071, probably from his renowned Universal History .
149-“…There is no crime without evidence. A genocide cannot be written about in the absence of factual proof..."
Sources: Henry R. Huttenbach, professor and genocide scholar, "Bosnia's Killing Fields: The Memory war," The Genocide Forum, 1996, No. 9 (Hearsay and forgeries do not count as evidence. For every Armenian woman and child that were killed during the tereset or after, Turks can show you four Muslims women and children who were killed by Armenians during the rebellions and raids prior to tereset. What’s more, Turks have the archives to prove their case at a competent tribunal. My-granma-told-me stories do not stand to the scrutiny of a court room. Tit-for-tat revenge killings and and other war crimes do not constitute genocide.)
Source: Mathias of Edessa, Armenian historian, probably in his Chronicles, Nr. 129; after the death of Sultan Kilic Arslan, the same Armenian historian also wrote, "Kilic Arslan's death has driven Christians into mourning since he was a charitable person of high caliber and character."
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
kirlikocoward
Santa Ana, CA#446
Saturday
Do not bother with Error-gun, readers:
http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/illegal...
Ergun Kirlikovali
Trabuco Canyon, CA#447
Part 42 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification.
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
Let’s continue with the expose, shall we?
150-“…It is to be hoped that the future historian will not give too much heed to the drivel one finds in the books of diplomatist-authors…"
Source: George A. Schreiner, American War/Political Correspondent, "The Craft Sinister: A Diplomatico-Political History of the Great War and its Causes,(G. Albert Gayer, New York, 1920)"; Schreiner criticized Ambassador Morgenthau in a letter, aware of the Ambassador's fabrications in "Ambassador Morgenthau's Story."
151-“…True friendship among Armenians is a rare thing indeed... Hatred and envy: they seem to come naturally to us..."
Source: Ara Baliozian, Armenian writer; ( Reading the Armenian posts here, I could not help agreeing with Baliozian, especially on the haterd front… EK)
152-“…Every Armenian has another Armenian whom he considers his mortal enemy… An Armenian's worst enemies are not odars but Armenians." ("Odars" : foreigners)… Our perpetual enemy — the enemy that will eventually destroy us — is not the Turk but our own complacent superficiality…What kind of people are we?... Instead of reason, blind instinct. Instead of common sense, fanaticism… Our past is filled with countless instances of betrayal and treachery..."
Source: Various Armenian writers, quoted by Ara Baliozian
153-“…In life, questions outnumber answers. Case in point: If they are bloodthirsty savages, why did they wait for 600 years to slaughter us?"
Source: Ara Baliozian, from a Yahoo group. Mr. Baliozian, an honest man who has been calling a spade a spade, has been "banned" from mainstream Armenian publications for not fitting in. Armenians cannot seem to tolerate dissent.
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
Ergun Kirlikovali
Trabuco Canyon, CA#448
Part 43 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification.
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
Let’s continue with the expose, shall we?
150-“…It is to be hoped that the future historian will not give too much heed to the drivel one finds in the books of diplomatist-authors…"
Source: George A. Schreiner, American War/Political Correspondent, "The Craft Sinister: A Diplomatico-Political History of the Great War and its Causes,(G. Albert Gayer, New York, 1920)"; Schreiner criticized Ambassador Morgenthau in a letter, aware of the Ambassador's fabrications in "Ambassador Morgenthau's Story."
154- "...When Turkey had not yet entered the war...Armenian volunteer groups began to be organized with great zeal and pomp in Trans Caucasia. In spite of the decision taken a few weeks before at the General Committee in Erzurum, the Dashnagtzoutune actively helped the organization of the aforementioned groups, and especially arming them, against Turkey. In the Fall of 1914, Armenian volunteer groups were formed and fought against the Turks..."
Source: Hovhannes Katchaznouni, First Prime Minister of the Independent Armenian Republic, The Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, 1923.(The Armenian Revolutionary Federation Has Nothing to Do Any More, New York, Armenian Information Service, 1955, p. 5.) "Practically all of the (volunteers were) Turkish Armenians," The New York Times reported, in 1915.
155-“…[One of the main aspects of Armenian] "national psychology...[is] to seek external causes for [Armenian ] misfortune."..."One might think we found a spiritual consolation in the conviction that the Russians behaved villainously towards us..."
Source: Hovhannes Katchaznouni, First Prime Minister of the Independent Armenian Republic, The Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni,1923, Page 8.(After the Russians, it would be the turn of the French, the Americans, the British, the Georgians, the Azerbaijanis — the whole world.)
156-“… Kachaznuni's government... like the wolf, eats the calf because such is its nature. That government could not live in peace and was obsessed with battling one or another of its neighbors, for like the wolf, it had to devour everything. Should not the Armenians have realized that, in view of their hostile relations with the Muslims, they must at least cling to the friendship of (Christian) Georgia? But instead they had now burned this bridge as well..."
Source: Premier Noizhordonia of Georgia, three days after Armenia attempted a land grab attempt via a surprise and unprovoked attack on its neighbor, on December 14, 1918; as reported by Professor Richard Hovannisian in his book, The Republic of Armenia, Vol. 1. Armenia would be more successful in its land grab attempt against neighbor Azerbaijan some seventy years later... in the manner of another "Pearl Harbor"-like sneak and cowardly attack, with huge monetary backing from the Russians and Americans.
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
Walter Murphy
Santa Ana, CA#449
Yesterday
I would like to add my humble support to Professor Ergun, because his many quotations are similar to those collected by my father, Raleigh K.
Murphy, who climbed many Caucasian mountains in the years just after WWI.
In one memorable meeting he had at a caravanserai near Mt Elbrus, Two Armenian traders from Tisneyastan in what is now Gyumri, admitted that
Armenians never made rugs, but stole the idea of rugs from the Mohammedans.
These traders were named
Migee Moogian and Tonal Patian. They admitted bad crimes against the Mohammetans.
These recollections are in
My father's memoirs "
In tisneystan" and you may quote them.
Ergun Kirlikovali
Trabuco Canyon, CA#450
ONE MORE LIGHT
My deepest gratitude and thanks go to Mr. Walter Murphy who shone another light on the Armenian deception; a light, perhaps heretofore unknown, but nevertheless, significant and much appreciated.
If I had done nothing in this column in the two months since I have been exposing the Armenian falsifications, at least I have facilitated the shining of ONE MORE LIGHT on the Armenian fraud.
I have never said the Armenians did not suffer; I said Turks and other suffered, too. Exposing the Armenian war crimes coupled with ARmenian hate crimes, I have always tried to point to the Armenian complicity in the human tragedy that is the civil war, not genocide.
Thank you Mr. Murphy!
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
My dead cannot rise from their graves and write here to defend themsleves; i must be their voice.
I feel, with Walter Murphy's kind and gentle contribution, my silent dead have found another voice.
jda
#451
Ergun,
I posted the Murphy material above to demonstrate to you, and if not to you to others, your uncritical acceptance of any anti Armenian material. Migee moogian
Is Mickey Mouse, as. Moog is the Armenian word for mouse; tonal Parian is donald duck, pat is duck. Finally tisneyastan is Disneyland.
You needn't be embarassed - nobody is reading your posts but me.
Until I read your posts here and at Turkish Forum I thought Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians could communicate respectfully with Turks to learn from each other. But your writings, sad to say, are racist.
I hope you can take a step back from the ceaseless hatred.
Ergun Kirlikovali
Trabuco Canyon, CA#452
13 hrs ago
Once a falsifier, always a falsifier...
I am too honest and trusting for you guys. I should learn to think like you, deceptive, fake, tricky, altogether unreliable.
I shall return to presenting questions and facts for honest, truth-seekers.
So long jda, or mickey mouse, or donald duck, or Pinnocchian... Whatever and whoever you are...
PS: Why should I be embarrassed because an Armenians tricked me? After all, your grandparents fooled the entire world with the genocide lies... Nothing new there...
Ergun Kirlikovali
Trabuco Canyon, CA#453
Part 44 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsifications.
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
Let’s continue with the expose, shall we?
157-“… Would you trust the Ku Klux Klan to provide reliable accounts of black behavior in the United States?..."
Source: Bruce Fein, adjunct scholar and general counsel of ATAA, from "Differences Are Overwhelming"; commenting on the validity of Henry Morgenthau's racist testimony, equally applicable to all the many virulent reports from people of the period who clearly stated Turks were an inferior race.(Would you trust the Armenian to tell the truth? Just look at the last message and judge for yourself.)
158-“…The Turkish race was... from the first black day they entered Europe, the one great anti-human specimen of humanity... as far as their dominion reached, civilisation vanished from view."
Source: William Gladstone, British Prime Minister, "The Bulgarian Horrors and the Question of the East," 1876 (One of the engineers of the Armenian rebellions in the Ottoman Empire.)
159-“… The Turks are a human cancer, a creeping agony in the flesh of the lands they misgovern, rotting every fiber of life. I am glad that the Turk is to be called to a final account (referring to the impending Greek invasion of Asia Minor ) for his long record of infamy against humanity."
Source: David Lloyd George, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, getting ready to annihilate the last remnants of the dying Ottoman Empire.
160-“…The centuries rarely produce a genius. Look at this bad luck of ours, that great genius of our era was granted to the Turkish nation."
Source: David Lloyd George, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, after his nation's plans to wipe Turkey off the face of the earth ran into a snag. Here, he is referring to Ataturk.
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
Ergun Kirlikovali
Trabuco Canyon, CA#454
Part 45 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsifications.
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
Let’s continue with the expose, shall we?
161-“…None of the data provided by the archives of any of the Entente powers, the wartime enemies of the Ottoman Empire, can be viewed as entirely impeccable…”
Source: Vahakn Dadrian, "The Armenian Genocide: A New Brand of Denial by the Turkish General Staff — by Proxy,” Sept. 21, 2004 (Roundabout way of saying don’t trust the allied wartime propaganda.)
162-“…The Armenians' dream of independence (developed) following the example of Serbs, Greeks and others when the Ottoman Empire began to crumble... In 1915 they (Armenians) were restless again. The Turks, having their hands full already with a difficult war, took ruthless steps to quell the uprising. They deported what was meant to be the entire population of Armenia to Syria and Mesopotamia. Their organization was insufficient; a third of the Armenian population escaped deportation..."
Source: R. P. Lister, "Turkey Observed," 1967 (While incomplete and erroneous, this pro-Armenian quote still shows that it was perhaps a badly managed wartime measure at worst, but hardly a genocide.)
163-“…When the Russians and the Turks became enemies at war in 1914, the Armenians sided with the Russians. As soon as word spread that the Armenians were massacring Moslem Turks and Kurds and were setting up an Armenian government in Van, the Young Turks passed a law to disarm and deport them. This turned into the 1915-1916 migrations and massacres of Armenians, and was followed by counter-massacres of Muslims by Russo-Armenian forces occupying eastern Turkey n 1917-18."
Source: Eleanor Bisbee, "The New Turks," University of Pennsylvania, 1951, p. 49 (Here, you can easily see the tit-for-tat nature of the civil war staretd by the Armenians.)
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
Ergun Kirlikovali
Trabuco Canyon, CA#455
Part 46 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification.
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
Let’s continue with the expose, shall we?
164-“…I am informed, on good authority, that Russia is already commencing her usual intrigues among the Armenians of Asiatic Turkey. Russian agents are being sent into the provinces inhabited by them with the object of stirring up discontent against the rule and authority of the Porte. A Russian party is being formed in the capital amongst the Armenians, which already includes some leading and influential members of that community."
Source: Sir Henry Layard, British Ambassador, in a July 14, 1878 message to British Foreign Secretary Lord Salisbury (British Foreign Office 424/72, pages 160-161, No 211)
165-“…The aim of the Armenian revolutionaries is to stir disturbances, to get the Ottomans to react to violence, and thus get the foreign powers to intervene..."
Source: Sir Philip Currie, the British Ambassador in Istanbul, 28 March 1894 (British Blue Book, Nr.6 1894, p.57? Or p. 87).
166-“…Their object has plainly been, by creating an appearance of widespread disaffection, quite out of proportion to their numbers and influence to provoke reprisals on the part of the Turkish Government and people, of a nature to draw the attention of the Powers to the manifest grievances of the Armenian nation, and the necessity for their redressal.”
Source: Graves, the British Consul in Erzurum, reporting to the British Ambassador in Istanbul, on January 28, 1895. British Blue Book, Nr. 6 (1894), pp. 222-223.
Ergun Kirlikovali - on of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
jda
#456
Ergun,
You bite the hand that feeds you.
The purpose of my post was to teach you a simple lesson: you agree umcritically
With anything anti-Armenian, and reject just as reflexively anything you think positive. So, if some wholly untethered defamation appears, you give it credence.
Why did you learn how to think critically as a scientist only to lose your intellect here? The answer is that as a scientist you use God given. Reason, here you do not.
I have expressed nothingg but sincere solicitude for the persecution your father and grandparents suffered. There is no reason for you to insult
Mine. Your letting malice drive you.
You can preserve your position without hating Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks. I recommend you talk to a Buddhist of Sufi. You will find liberation from hate a very happy experience.
Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA
#457
Monday Dec 29
Part 47 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsifications.
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
Let’s continue with the expose, shall we?
167-“…Historical questions should be left to historians…"
Source: Mesrob II, Armenian Patriarch, 2001, Istanbul, Turkey.
168-“…The outcry and clamor of Armenians that Turks have been persecuting Armenians are nothing but lies. The Turkish government has done nothing evil to Armenians. Perhaps Armenians have planned a revolution taking advantage of the indifference of the government, have armed bands and sent them to mountains, as for the Turks, perhaps they have been trying only to pursue them and put down the uprisings…"
Source; Austrian Consul in a report submitted to his government, Nikerled Krayblis, Rusya'nin fiark Siyaseti ve Vilayet-i fiarkiyye Mes'elesi [Eastern Policy of Russia and the question of the Eastern Provinces], translated by Habil Adem, Istanbul, 1932, p. 178
169-“… The truth is that the party (Dashnak Committee) was ruled by an oligarchy, for whom the particular interests of the party came before the interests of the people and nation. They (the Dashnaks) made collections among the bourgeois and the great merchants. At the end, when these means were exhausted, they resorted to terrorism, after the teachings of the Russian revolutionaries that the end justifies the means…"
Source: Dr. Jean Loris-Melikoff, La Revolution Russe et les Nouvelles Republiques Transcaucasiennes, Paris, 1920, p. 81
170-“… Religious communities had long become revolutionary hearts of the Armenian revolutionary parties and most diabolical plans had been drawn up there. Religious spaces had become warehouses of arms and hearths of plots. Religious leaders had been exhorting the people to rise up against the state with their speeches and writings, people that had trusted them. They did not preach any more the teaching of the Gospel and utter noble words in their sermons. Rebellion had replaced loyalty and righteousness in their sermons, hatred and revenge had taken the place of humanity. Meanness and ignominy were preached in place of high morality. Religious leaders presided over festivities, meetings and ceremonies organised by revolutionary committees."
Source: Gevand Turyan, Armenian bishop and Ottoman citizen, "A Qui la Faute?" Aux Partis Revue Arménien.(Publication de la Revue Dadiar). Constantinople, 1917, pp. 40-41.
171-“… Czarist Russia at no time wanted to assure Armenian autonomy. For this reason, one must consider the Armenians who were working for Armenian autonomy as no more than agents of the Czar to attach Eastern Anatolia to Russia…"
Source: Borian, Armenian historian, author of Armeniya Mejdunarodnaya Diplomatiya; SSSR. Cast 11, Moskva, 1929
172-“…(The Armenian revolutionary committees considered that) "The most opportune time to institute the general rebellion for carrying out the immediate objectives was when Turkey was engaged in war…"
Source: Louise Nalbandian, Armenian Revolutionary Movement, University of California Press, 1963
173-“… As soon as the Russians have crossed the borders and the Ottoman armies have started to retreat, you should revolt everywhere. The Ottoman armies thus will be placed between two fires. On the other hand, the Armenians in the Ottoman army should desert their units with their weapons and unite with the Russians…"
Source; Dashnak committee order to the Armenians preparing to revolt within the Ottoman Empire
174-“… The entire Armenian Nation will join forces — moral and material, and waving the sword of Revolution, will enter this World conflict ... as comrades in arms of the Triple Entente, and particularly Russia. They will cooperate with the Allies, making full use of all political and revolutionary means for the final victory of Armenia, Cilicia, Caucasus, Azerbayjan....[H]eroes who will sacrifice their lives for the great cause of Armenia.... Armenians proud to shed their blood for the cause of Armenia...."
Source: Hunchak Armenian [Revolutionary] Gazette, in a call to arms just prior to the formal declaration of war against Germany and the Ottoman Empire, November 1914 issue, Paris.
175-“… The Armenians have taken their place on the side of the Entente states without showing any hesitation whatsoever; they have placed all their forces at the disposition of Russia; and they also are forming volunteer battalions…"
Source: Horizon, the Dashnak Society's official organ, as soon as Russia declared war on the Ottoman Empire
Ergun Kirlikovali Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
ChiliHead
“GO WINGS!”
San Marino CA.
#459
Tuesday
Charles Webster wrote:
I find it extremely disturbing that the word "racist" is gratuitously used by this Turkish-American individual against Adam Schiff who is simply stating a well known and incontestable fact, whereas Mr. Kirlikovali is clearly mobilizing his efforts in a racist agenda of denying a genocide against the Armenians ever happened.
Many use the word racist. Mostly uneducated. Just ask the the definition of the word and they will get a stupid look on their face. Priceless!
Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA
#460
Wednesday
Part 49 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification.
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
Let’s continue with the expose, shall we?
176-“…The Hunchak Committee will use all means to assist the Entente states, devoting all its forces to the struggle to assure victory in Armenia, Cilicia, the Caucasus and Azerbaijan as the ally of the Entente states, and in particular of Russia."
Source: Hunchak Committee instructions to its organizations in Ottoman territory; Aspirations et Agissements Revolutionnaires des Comites Armeniens avant et apres la Proclamation de la Constitution Ottomane, Istanbul, 1917, pp. 151-153
177-“…The volunteer Armenian regiments in the Caucasus should prepare themselves for battle, serve as advance units for the Russian armies to help them capture the key positions in the districts where the Armenians live, and advance into Anatolia, joining the Armenian units already there…"
Source: Papazyan, the Armenian representative in the Ottoman Parliament for Van, in a published proclamation; he would soon turn out to be a leading guerilla fighter against the Ottomans
178-“…The long-anticipated day of deliverance for the Turkish Armenians is at hand and the Armenians are prepared for any sacrifice made necessary by the performance of their manifest duty...”
Source: An Ottoman-Armenian newspaper, probably one of the two published in Van ("Van Kartali" or "Araratli"), as quoted in The New York Times article, ARMENIANS FIGHTING TURKS ("Besieging Van—Others operating in Turkish Army's Rear,") November 7, 1914
179-“…These gangs were advancing by plundering and pillaging (nehib ve garet) the properties/goods (emvalini) of the Moslem villages they passed through and massacred and destroyed even babies in cradles...."
Source: Ottoman Imperial Army report describing the actions of 10,000 Armenian committee men (acc'd to the Armenian Catholicos V. the Kevork, B.A. Boryan, Armeniya Mejdunarodnaya Diplomatiya; SSSR. Cast 11, Moskva, 1929, p. 363) regarding the uprising started in "Shitak Country" on April 17, 1915, followed by further riots by Armenians in the entire province of Van, culminating in the Russians' entry of Van on May 19th, causing some 30,000 Turks to flee with heavy losses.
180-“…As it is known, the Russian government gave 242,900 rubles at the beginning of the war for the initial cost of arming and preparing the Turkish Armenians and to start riots within the country during the war. Our volunteer units were obliged to break the chains of the Turkish Army by cutting through, causing anarchy in Turkey and joining the rioters from behind together with those fighting inside the enemy lines if possible and to provide the propagation of the Russian Armies to get hold of Turkish Armenia..."
Source: Dashnak Party Military Minister, Armenian National Congress meeting in Tbilisi, February 1915; B.A. Boryan, Armeniya Mejdunarodnaya Diplomatiya; SSSR. Cast 11, Moskva, 1929, p. 360.
181-“…A battalion, consisting of Armenian volunteers , was organized in Kars. Inevitable danger hung over their families numbering 10,000... Please take care of these unhappy victims and don’t let Ottomans take vengeance on Armenians who showed their love for Russia... That’s why I dare to ask you to give me the power to resettle the Armenians in Georgia and Armenia. In my opinion approximately 50 silver rubles for each family will be enough.”
Source: Ivan Feodorovich Paskevich (Count of Erivan after the conquest of the province from the Persian war of 1826-28, and field marshal after the Russo-Turkish War of 1828–29), reporting to the Russian Tsar on October 10, 1829; Ottoman-Armenian treachery in helping the invading Russians had begun a long time ago. The Ottoman government was concerned about once-dispersed Armenians who were now compacted into one area along the borderline... a key reason why future rebellions would be made possible. On February 17, 1830 an amnesty for local Armenians was announced, forgiving the Armenians’ betrayal and massacres, chiefly as a strategic move against the Russians.
182-“…As soon as the Armenian volunteer units commanded by Antranik approach Van, the Dashnak fighters in the area will take to the mountains and unfurl the flag of revolt. The plans for the rebellion will be implemented in April 1915. The Catholicos has informed us that 10,000 armed fighters are ready to join the action.”
Source: Dashnak decision, end of February 1915 Armenian National Congress held in Tiblis.[The Armenians in History and the Armenian Question; Esat Uras, Documentary Publications, Istanbul (1988); p.853]
Please note how the Armenian “pope”, the Catholicos, is up to his neck in planning murder and mayhem! What “poor, starving Armenians”? It's a myth!
183-“…From all countries Armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the glorious Russian Army, with their blood to serve the victory of Russian arms... Let the Russian flag wave freely over the Dardanelles and the Bosporus. Let, with Your will, great Majesty, the peoples remaining under the Turkish yoke receive freedom. Let the Armenian people of Turkey who have suffered for the faith of Christ receive resurrection for a new free life under the protection of Russia."
Source: Samson Harutunian, president of the Armenian National Bureau in Tiflis, in response to Czar Nicholas II's visit to the Caucasus, to make final plans for cooperation with the Armenians against the Ottomans.(Source; also cited in p. 45 of Prof. Hovannisian's "Armenia on the Road to Independence" as having appeared in the Nov. 30,'14 issue of Hairenik Taregirk, V, Boston 1947, p. 126))
184-“…As demonstrated by the innumerable declarations, provocative pamphlets, weapons, ammunition, explosives, & c., found in areas inhabited by Armenians, the rebellion was prepared for a long time, organized, strengthened and financed by Russia. Information was received on time in Istanbul about an Armenian assassination attempt directed at high ranking state officials and officers."
Source: General Bronsart v. Schellendorf , Chief of Staff to the Ottoman Commander-in-Chief, Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, July 24, 1921.
Ergun Kirlikovali, Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides, www.turkla.com
jda San Francisco, CA #463 Tuesday Jan 6
Kirlikovali, your favorite Professor, Guenter Lewy, says this on page 122 of his book, which you praised unconditionally in the Middle East Quarterly:
"But many others [Armenians]lost their lives as a result of the deportations and the massacres...[.] The Turkish argument that the losses of both sides should be subsumed under the label 'civil war' undoubtedly has the purpose of deflecting attention from this basic fact. The large number of Armenian atrocities is irrelevant in this connection and does not make the 'civil war' argument any more convincing. Dissenting from the prevailing national consensus, Turkish historian Selim Derengel has insisted that "colossal crimes were committed against the Armenian people in Anatolia and elsewhere" and that "no historian with a conscience can possibly accept the 'civil war' line, which is a travesty of history.I agree withthis view."
You've known that your entire civil war theory is nonsense in the eyes of a Professor you praise. So, dredge up all the atrocity stories you like, Guenter Lewy is telling you its nonsense.
Sure, Armenian Priests with flamethrowers, babies with daggers, old ladies with crochet needles, none of it matters. Keep coming up with ridiculous quotes, none of which negate that unarmed civilians were slaughtered under guard.
And almost all of it is untrue.
Kirlikovali Irvine, CA
#464
Tuesday Jan 6
Part 52 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification.
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
Let’s continue with the gradual dismantling of the bogus genocide, shall we?
185-“…When war broke out the Armenians of these regions [the Eastern provinces] made secret contact with the Russian authorities in the Caucasus, and an underground network was created which enabled recruits to be gotten from these Turkish provinces for the Russian Army…”
Source: Philips Price, A History of Turkey, 1956, p. 91 (Can you trust citizens like this who plot against their own government?)
186-“…In return for Russia's forcing the Ottomans to make reforms for the Armenians, all the Russian Armenians would support the Russian war effort without conditions..."
Source: The Catholicos of Echmiadzin assures the Russian General Governor of the Caucasus, Vranzof Dashkof; Tchalkouchian, Gr., Le Livre Rouge, Paris, 1919
187-“…The liberation of the Armenians in Anatolia would lead to the establishment of an autonomous Armenia separated from Turkish suzerainty and that this Armenia could be made possible with the protection of Russia…"
Source: Czar Nicholas, to the Catholicos of Echmiadzin, who was received by the Russian emperor at Tiflis. Tchalkouchian, Gr., Le Livre Rouge, Paris, 1919
188-“…The Armenians greeted the Russians with ringing bells and with their priests dressed in their ceremonial robes. In this war, too, the Armenian people took their place beside the Russians... The war broke out and volunteers came from everywhere, from Armenia in Eastern Anatolia, from Egypt under Turkish rule, from the non-Russian areas of Rumania; all these people who were Ottoman subjects, familiar with Anatolia, gathered together and put themselves at the service of the Russian Empire...”
Source: Tchalkouchian, in a May 24, 1916 speech addressed to the Armenian Congress in St. Petersburg [The Armenians in History and the Armenian Question; Esat Uras; Documentary Publications, Istanbul (1988); p.854.](What “poor, starving Armenians? These are scheming, lying murderers.)
Part 53 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification.
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
Let’s continue with the gradual dismantling of the bogus genocide, shall we?
189-“…Armenians do not have the right to live in Erzurum."
Source: First order of the Russian General Commandment during the Russian occupation of Erzurum in 1916. B.A. Boryan, Armeniya Mejdunarodnaya Diplomatiya; SSSR. Cast 11, Moskva, 1929, p. 356.(Russians just used the idiots to backstab Turks and destroy a millennium of Turk-Armenian co-habitation and then thumbed its nose to wild Armenian aspirations. Well, if you agree to go to be with a bear, can you negotiate on the otucome?)
190-“…The solution to grant independence to the Armenians would not be suitable since the Armenians living in Armenia never had formed the majority whereas they only formed one fourth of the existing population until now. Under these conditions, the granting of Armenian independence would cause unjustness like the administering of a majority by a minority, and the best feasible solution would be the equal administering of various ethnic groups through the rearrangement of the region taken from Turkey so that these groups never fall into a conflict; they should be granted freedom regarding educational and religious rights along with the free use of their language, thus causing the people to respect the Government and the clearance of all kinds of internal and external incitements and bringing the necessary vital conditions for the local people once present during the Turkish administration...."
Source: Sazonar, the Russian Minister of Foreign Affairs, in his project letter to Prince Nicolai Nicolayevich, the Caucasian General Governor, June 27, 1916; Razdel Aziatskoy Turtsii Po Sekretnim Dokumentom Bivshego Ministerstva Inostrannih Del. Sostovitel: E.A. Adamov, Moskva, 1924. Document No: CXL., p. 207-210. From "Armenian Claims and Realities," Dr. Hüsamettin Yildirim, Ankara, 2001.
(Armenians throughout history suffered from lack of visionary leaders. All they got instead, it seems, are a bunch of passionate thugs, ruthless hired killers, and backstabbers with loud mouths.)
Part 54 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification.
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
Let’s continue with the gradual dismantling of the bogus genocide, shall we?
191-“…The Armenians of Turkey no longer think of separating from the Ottoman Empire. Their problems no longer are even the concern of relations between the Armenian Republic and the Ottomans. Relations between the Ottoman Empire and the Armenian Republic are excellent, and they must remain that way in the future. All Armenian political parties feel the same way. Continuation of this good neighbourly spirit is one of the principal points of the program recently announced by the Armenian Government, of which I am Foreign Minister."
Source: Hadisian, Foreign Minister of the Armenian Republic, upon the signing of the Batum Treaty on June 4, 1918 with the Ottoman Government. This treaty was described as involving the Armenians' full disavowal of all claims on the territory or people of the Ottoman Empire including its Armenians and the lands claimed by Armenian nationalists; Feigl, Erich, A Myth of Terror, 1986, pg. 85
192-“…Russia's policy of hostility toward Turkey emboldened the Armenians of the Caucasus; that is why the Caucasus Armenians were involved in clashes between two friendly races. Thank goodness that this situation did not last too long. Following the Russian Revolution, the Armenians of the Caucasus understood that their security could be achieved only by having good relations with Turkey, and they stretched out their hands to Turkey. Turkey also wanted to forget the events of the past, and grasped the out-stretched hand in friendship. We agree that the Armenian Question has been resolved and left to history. The mutual feelings of suspicion and enmity created by foreign agents have been eliminated."
Source: Hairenik (Horizon), the Dashnak organ, on June 28, 1918; Kara Schemsi, Turcs et Armeniens devant l'Histoire, Geneve, Imprimerie Nationale, 1919, p. 31-32.
193-“…The Turks and Armenians lived in peace side by side for centuries; that the Turks suffered as much as the Armenians at the time of the deportations; that only 20 % of the Turkish villagers who went to war would be able to return to their homes; that at the start of World War I and before the Armenians never had anything approaching a majority of the population in the territories called Armenia; they would not have a majority even if all the deported Armenians were returned; and the claims that returning Armenians would be in danger were not justified."
Source: General James G. Harbord, in a report to Congress after touring through Anatolia during September and October; Kara Schemsi, Turcs et Armeniens devant l'Histoire, Geneve, Imprimerie Nationale, 1919, p. 31-32.
Part 55 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification.
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
Let’s continue with the gradual dismantling of the bogus genocide, shall we?
194-“…The Turks had no deliberate policy of genocide at any stage, only the removal of Armenians from the front line with Russia, where they were collaborating with the Ottoman Empire's enemies and were thus a threat to its security."
Source: P. F. Peters, Former Australian Ambassador to Turkey, The Australian, June 9th, 1994
195-“….(W)e, the Armenians, do not need facts to comprehend that there was a genocide against the Armenian nation."
Source: John Kossakian, Editorial Director of the Armenian Newspaper Asbarez; in a May 04, 2001 letter, exchanging views with the Turkish site, ermenisorunu.gen.tr. All the proof that's necessary is the hearsay of Armenian oral history, backed up by forgeries and politics, none of which will stand to scrutiny in a court of law, as Kossakian shows.
196-“…Majesty, I would like to ask you not to allow the location of Armenians in the central Russian regions. Because they are such filthy and shameless clans, they would soon shout throughout the world and claim those lands as their 'ancient motherland'."
Source: Aleksandr Sergeyevich Griboyedov, Russian diplomat and playwright who organized the transmigration of Armenians from Iran, as Russian minister to Iran in the early 19th century; in a letter to the Czar. As a result, Armenians were located not in Central Russia, but in the Caucasus... thereby also craftily sowing discontent between the peoples of the Caucasus, who had maintained strong relations since ancient times.(This quote is one of my faves. Don’t you love it, too? How long before they calim Fresno or Glendale as their fatherlands?)
197-“…I was being employed by His Majesty’s Government to compile all available documents on the present treatment of the Armenians by the Turkish Government in a 'Blue Book,' which was duly published and distributed as war-propaganda!”
Source: Arnold Joseph Toynbee, "The Western Question in Greece and Turkey: a Study in the Contact of Civilizations," Boston, Houghton Mifflin, 1922, p. 50.(Read my lips: w-a-r p-r-o-p-a-g-a-n-d-a !)
Part 56 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification.
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
Let’s continue with the gradual dismantling of the bogus genocide, shall we?
198- "...There is a systematic plan of destruction of Turkish villages and extinction of the Moslem population. This plan is being carried out by Greek and Armenian bands, which appear to operate under Greek instructions and sometimes even with the assistance of detachments of regular troops."
Source: Arnold Toynbee, "The Western Question in Greece and Turkey," p. 284; quoting the commission of the allies for the incidents of Yalova and Gemlik. This was the "reformed" Toynbee, in his later years.
199-“…The Ottoman institution came perhaps as near as anything in real life could to realizing the ideal of Plato’s Republic.”
Source: Arnold Toynbee, suddenly pro-Turk British historian (Go figure!)
200-“….The economic situation was so dismal that not only many Armenians, but thousands of Turkish soldiers as well died of the lack of food supplies, disease, and other consequences of poor organization in the Turkish government. In my division alone, after the battle of Gallipoli, thousands died of malnutrition."
Source: General Liman von Sanders, as witness for the defense, in the trial of Tehlirian, assassin of Talat Pasha
201-“…The domestic situation was deplorable: all over Turkey thousands of the populace were daily dying of starvation; practically all able-bodied men had been taken into the army, so that only a few were left to till the fields; the criminal requisitions had almost destroyed all business; the treasury was in a more exhausted state than normally, for the closing of the Dardanelles and the blockading of the Mediterranean ports had stopped all imports and customs dues..."
Source: Henry Morganthau, U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire; from his ghostwritten book, Ambassador Morgenthau's Story. Thousands dying daily? Gee. If true, do you suppose at least a few of the Armenian casualties could have resulted from the very same conditions all Ottoman citizens were suffering from?
Ergun Kirlikovali Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
jda San Francisco, CA #469
JUST HOW STUPID IS ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI?
A: PRETTY STUPID
PROOF:
I hypothesized that there is no anti-Armenian statement Ergun will not applaud lustily. Last week, this incomprehensible shaggy dog story was posted by a supposed Walter Murphy about his father meeting two dishonest Armenians while mountain climbing on the Pasadena Star website:
Walter Murphy
|#449 Saturday Dec 27
I would like to add my humble support to Professor Ergun,[I baited the hook with the "Professor" honorarium] because his many quotations are similar to those collected by my father, Raleigh K.
Murphy, who climbed many Caucasian mountains in the years just after WWI.
In one memorable meeting he had at a caravanserai near Mt Elbrus, Two Armenian traders from Tisneyastan in what is now Gyumri, admitted that
Armenians never made rugs, but stole the idea of rugs from the Mohammedans.
These traders were named
Migee Moogian and Tonal Patian. They admitted bad crimes against the Mohammetans.
These recollections are in
My father's memoirs
"In tisneystan" and you may quote them. "
On its own, the quote simply displays some vague anti-Armenian bias, this time about rugs. But Ergun should have recognized that "Migee Moogian" is Mickey Mouse [Armo for Mouse is Moog], Tonal Patian is Donald Duck [pat=duck] and Tisneyastan is Disneyland.
Ol'Ergun acted as if the keys tot he magic kingdom had been given to him by Valter Tisney himself. His response:
Ergun Kirlikovali
Trabuco Canyon, CA
#450 Sunday Dec 28
ONE MORE LIGHT
My deepest gratitude and thanks go to Mr. Walter Murphy who shone another light on the Armenian deception; a light, perhaps heretofore unknown, but nevertheless, significant and much appreciated.
If I had done nothing in this column in the two months since I have been exposing the Armenian falsifications, at least I have facilitated the shining of ONE MORE LIGHT on the Armenian fraud.
I have never said the Armenians did not suffer; I said Turks and other suffered, too. Exposing the Armenian war crimes coupled with ARmenian hate crimes, I have always tried to point to the Armenian complicity in the human tragedy that is the civil war, not genocide.
Thank you Mr. Murphy!
Ergun Kirlikovali Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
My dead cannot rise from their graves and write here to defend themsleves; i must be their voice.
I feel, with Walter Murphy's kind and gentle contribution, my silent dead have found another voice.
I particularly like how the silent dead find voice, now that Mickey and Donald have spilled the beans on bad Armenian rug traders in Georgia 100 years ago.
Kirlikovali Irvine, CA #470
The tricky Armenian versus the honest Turk. Here is the proof. Just above this message.
Here is another falsifying Armenian who boasts of having deceived a Turk. Andonian (the infamous faker who fabricated Talaat Pasha telegrams) wuld be proud of this new faker. Even his name is fake. he goes by: jda, manukyan, pierre, burcu, bob, john, zareeh, anoosh, etc. etc. falsifications and lies are in his blood. There is nothing I can do to help this pathological liar. He needs professional help.
Why is deceiving me such a big deal? After all, didn't the Armenian deceive the whole wrold into believing a bogus genocide?
Didn't the members of the AFATH (Armenian falsifiers and Turk Haters) community fabricate that Hitler quote?
Didn't the members of the AFATH community falsify the pyramid of skulls painting by the Russian painter Veraschagin as proof of Armenian genocide?
Didn't the members of the AFATH community falsify the unsuspeting public with a photo-shopped Ataturk photo for years?
And with a fake interview allegedly with Mustafa Kemal for decades?
Didn't they jack the number of Armenian casualties from 54,000 to 200,000 in March 1919 (Paris Peace Conference report)?
then to 600,000 in May 1919?(A poster printed by Armenian nationalists and circulated in America to solicit money from unsuspecting Americans grieveing for "poor, starvingm but gun toting and bomb exploding" Armenians?)
then to 1 million in 1970s?
then to 2 million in 1990s?
then to 3 million recently?
then back to 1.5 million nowadays?
then to more than a million?
Is there anything Armenians say that is true?
What is one more lie, one more trick by jda?
Who do you believe; tricky Armenian or honest Turk?
jda
San Francisco, CA#471
Friday Jan 23
There are plenty of quotes to go around. Problem for Ergun is that his do not refute Genocide, while Turks of the day affirmed it:
"Surely a few Armenians aided and abetted our enemy, and a few Armenian Deputies committed crimes against the Turkish nation... it is incumbent upon a government to pursue the guilty ones. Unfortunately, our wartime leaders, imbued with a spirit of brigandage, carried out the law of deportation in a manner that could surpass the proclivities of the most bloodthirsty bandits. They decided to exterminate the Armenians, and they did exterminate them. "
Mustafa Arif, Ottoman Minister of Interior after Mehmed Talat Pasha (13 December 1918)
"These left-overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made to account for the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule. "
Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, in an interview published in The Los Angeles Examiner (1 August 1926)
jda-2
San Francisco, CA#472
Friday Jan 23
"You Armenians... never forgot where you live... you accursed ones have brought many perils on the head of our esteemed government... paved the way for foreign assault... You must know that the Young Turks have awakened now... Turkish youth... shall not delay the execution of their assigned duties... The Turkish sword to date has cut down millions of giavours, nor has it lost its intention to cut millions more hereafter. Know this that the Turks have committed themselves, and have vowed to subdue and to clean up the Armenian giavours who have become tubercular microbes for us."
Huseyin Azmi, Director General of the Istanbul Police, in two letters to the Armenian Patriarch in Istanbul (12 November 1913)
"Jamal Pasha [then Turkish military ruler in Palestine] planned from the outset to destroy the entire Hebrew settlement in Eretz Yisrael, exactly as they did the Armenians in Armenia "
David Ben-Gurion, in a letter to his father from 1919, as reported by Yair Auron in The Banality of Indifference: Zionism and the Armenian Genocide - p 325
jda-2
San Francisco, CA#473
Friday Jan 23
"[What actually happened in 1915-16] was no accident, this was not a marginal or small thing, it was not a geographically or demographically limited thing, virtually the entirety of Ottoman Armenians has been ordered to be rounded up, socially deracinated, uprooted, dispossesses, and deported for no reason other than that they were Armenians and, secondly, that there was very strong evidence that the accompanied violence and massacres had not started spontaneously or despite the best intentions of the state to protect the convoys of the deportees. Rather, there was strong evidence to the effect that there were orders issued, disseminated, and executed through the Teşkilât-ı Mahsusa and that this in turn triggered secondary and tertiary rounds of violence and massacres once it became clear that the Armenians were fair game and that the shooting season was open on them. It fits the clauses of the 1948 UN convention [on genocide] comprehensively, and in that light, if we are permitted to take those categorizations and apply them to an event that occurred 33 years earlier, then we have to say, "Yes, it was genocide" "
Halil Berktay - The Specter of the Armenian Genocide - An Interview with Halil Bektay - by Katchig Mouradian (1 November 2005)
At that time (1915) there were 1 million and 750 thousand Armenians living in Eastern Anatolia. The deportation order issued by the ruling military triumvirate was drawn up so as to include all the Armenians in the region, without exception. These things are documented in writing. There was no mention of massacres or slaughter. The provincial governors and garrison commanders were directed to deport the Armenians to the region south of Turkey's current borders. However, it's clear that, in addition to these official orders, separate, non-written orders were given to the most rapacious members of the "Teskilat-i Mahsusa" ["Special Organization"], who worshipped violence and were not bound by adherence to any normal moral code. Those who issued these orders had them carried out via a special organization, the Teskilat-i Mahsusa... It is clear that Bahaettin Sakir, who operated as the Teskilat-i Mahsusa's man for Enver, Cemal, and Talat, set up death squads in the region. Some of these people were convicted criminals who were saved from the gallows and released from prison just to carry out such activities... The whole affair is that simple and clear. In addition to them, Turkish and Kurdish tribes also attacked the convoys of Armenians being deported. In addition to these actual massacres, there were the terrible losses caused by the deportations carred out in appalling conditions of deprivation. Everywhere in the Western world, there are photographs of these incidents which we can't bear to look at. The first time I encountered these visual records, I cried and could hardly breathe for several minutes. They are no different from the images of the concentration camps, or the massacres in Africa. For there are huge numbers of people in these pictures.
Halil Berktay, specialist in Turkish history of the 19th and 20th centuries, has taught at Harvard University, the Middle East Technical University in Ankara, and Bogazici (Bosporus) University in Istanbul, from an interview published in the Turkish newspaper Radikal (9 October 2000)
jda-4
San Francisco, CA#474
Friday Jan 23
"By 1912-13, and especially after the traumatic Balkan wars, the unionist leadership had already acquired a comprehensive ethnic cleansing mentality. They had arrived at the crystallization of their own version of Social Darwinistic, violent, anxious, and, therefore, malicious and malevolent unionist nationalism. That is to say, it was their ideology that was telling them "we cannot have a patriotic self defense unless and until we have an Anatolia that has been comprehensively Turkified." That is to say, they had acquired a nationalist ideological perspective of regarding all non-Turks as suspect, hostile elements. It was this ideology that led to the tehcir and the accompanying orders. It was this ideology, in turn, which lead to the horrors of 1915... it was the Ottoman state versus all Armenians. It was state declaring war on its subjects. "
Halil Berktay , in "Specter of the Armenian Genocide - An Interview with Halil Bektay" by Katchig Mouradian (1 November 2005)
"All that I have seen and heard surpasses all imagination. Speaking of "thousand and one horrors" is very little in this case, I thought I was passing through a part of hell... everywhere it is the same Governmental barbarism which aims at the systematic annihilation through starvation of the survivors of the Armenian nation in Turkey. "
August Bernau, Aleppo Agent of the Vacuum Oil Company of New York, September 10, 1916 US State Department Record Group
jda-5
San Francisco, CA#475
Friday Jan 23
"One of the expressions of Cetin Altan that I like the most is "the propaganda of Turks aiming at Turks." On all international issues, we very much like to propagandize to each other — a propaganda which is not based on realities. On the issue of the "so-called genocide," too, we like very much to propagandize to ourselves. First of all, we start by indicating that the allegation is about a "so-called" genocide....the Council of the Higher Education, YOK...sent a series of instructions to university rectors and deans and aimed to begin to train educators on this issue. YOK would determine in advance what and how scientists would think about the "Armenian Deportation," and the latter would work in the light of that.
There you are — a scientific study in the Turkish style!...it was decided by the Commission of the Instruction and Education that the subjects relating to the Armenian, Pontus Greek and Assyrian allegations...are groundless....every effort will be made so that, first, it is recognized that the "so-called Armenian Genocide" is a "so-called" one, then, by means of propaganda, those denials will be taught to children and youth and will be engraved in their minds. It is written in the editorial of the weekly "Agos" that the same is requested from Armenian schools; it is required that young Armenians also form sentences denying "the groundless Armenian allegations. In reality, this propaganda is more deceptive for Turkish children: the Armenian child will hear one way or another from his family, relatives and eyewitnesses still living why the number of Armenians living in this country dropped from 2 million to 60,000. He will also know that he needs to say at school the opposite of what he hears at home. What happened in history did happen. It is impossible to fight against realities. Should German people defend Hitler, who assassinated millions of Jews for the simple reason that he is German? 1915 is one of the painful pages of the Ottoman history: on this date, the Committee of Union and Progress committed a huge crime against humanity. Why should I take the responsibility for that crime, and oppose the historical truths by asserting that all of this did not take place? Why shall we mislead young brains with lies? What kind of damage does such a propaganda cause in the brains of the youth. What will this society gain, by educating the youth with legends that are unreal?
Oral Calislar, from the Turkish daily Cumhuriyet (12 May 2003)
jda-5 Smith family story
San Francisco, CA#476
Friday Jan 23
My father, aunt,and various relatives were survivors of the genocide. I had an aunt who at the time of the march was about 8 years old, along with several brothers, sisters, mother, father, cousins were forced out of their village of Ovajic. My aunt was finally sold to an Arab family in order to save her life. I believe she was the youngest. A sister was attacked by one of the Turkish soldiers and because of her struggle, both of her eyes were gouged out with a sword in front of the family. They were not allowed to help her in anyway and were forced to leave her and ordered to keep marching. The rest of the family all died eventually on the march.
My Aunt, who was sold to the Arab family, was finally located after the end of the war. Her brother, my father, who had been drafted into the Turkish Navy during this time, was allowed to look for any missing relatives. Fortunately he found her in the last village he was going to because he was ready to give up.. She was watching a flock of sheep for the family at the time. She had changed considerably because she had been tatooed on the face and was also 4 years older. Her brother had a picture of her with him and sent it with a family member (Arab) to show her. She immediately recognized him, however, she had to convince him that she was his sister.
My sister, Takouhie, was named after the aunt who had her eyes gouged out. Two uncles escaped the march because they were already in the U.S. at the time.My father and the sister he rescued, arrived in the U.S. soon after.
My father never forgot that incident , naturally. We heard the story many times as children. My mother had a Greek father, so her family never were forced to leave. It is a sad commentary that the Turks to this day, deny that it ever happened. I just feel really sorry. It is hard to say anything. I am afraid all of my cousins, sisters etc. who were born after that happened, have become too assimilated into the American culture to fully appreciate what they went through.
Anne Smith ASmith6302
Friday, March 20, 1998
Anne, Ergun calls you and your family all liars. Or he willclaim that Armenians harmed your Aunt. May God enlighten her soul.
Ergun Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#477
Monday Jan 26
I see that “the tricky Armenian” writes again. I thought I had broken his back and that he would never set foot here again, but apparently, I was wrong. Fake names, fake claims, fake arguments. That Armenian genocide for you. Not much has changed from Andonian, the master faker of 1920s, to jda the wannabe faker of today. Instead of wasting our time with “whatever his real name is”, let us stick to the facts. So, where were we?
***
Part 57 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification.
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
Let’s continue with the gradual dismantling of the bogus genocide, shall we?
202- "..."...About a million families were left without breadwinners, all of them in a condition of extreme destitution. The Turkish Government paid its soldiers 25 cents a month, and gave the families a separation allowance of $1.20 a month. As a result thousands were dying from lack of food and many more were enfeebled by malnutrition; I believe that the empire has lost a quarter of its Turkish population since the war started…"
Source: Henry Morganthau, U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, elaborating further upon conditions that affected Turk and Armenian alike; from his ghostwritten book, Ambassador Morgenthau's Story.
203-“…"… I cannot say what the role of Talaat was as concerns the issuing of orders. As far as I know the principal order pertaining to the deportation of the Armenians was given on May 20, 1915. In any event it was the result of a decision of the Young Turk committee and it had the unanimous approval of the ministers. The implementation of the orders was left to the Valis, the lower echelon officials, and especially the horrible police force. In any event, I consider it my duty to state that, in the five years I was in Turkey, I never saw an order signed by Talaat against the Armenians and neither can I testify whether or not such an order was ever issued..."
Source: General Liman von Sanders, as witness for the defense, in the trial of Tehlirian, assassin of Talat Pasha.(It's interesting to note that since the Germans were, for all intents and purposes, behind the workings of the Ottoman war machine, how is it possible that the main German commander would not have come across any government-sponsored genocidal order? If a government decides to commit genocide, they would have to let local officials know about such a policy... otherwise, how could the genocide be carried out?)
Part 58 of 999
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification.
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
Let’s continue with the gradual dismantling of the bogus genocide, shall we?
202- "…Armenian gangs had extensively destroyed Esindscian (Erzincan) and extirpated (rooted out, exterminated) the volk (people) living in the villages nearby…"
Source: Bussche, a German diplomat, February 28, 1918, wrote the above on the basis of information received from the German Consulate in Sivas (R 22346, "File 190" and "Turkey41," archives of central building of Ministry of Foreign Affairs of German Empire.) Another version of this communication has been translated as: "The Armenian bands carried out overwhelming destruction at Erzincan. They literally eradicated the whole population living in villages." Another source claimed the following: The Armenians have virtually 'scraped the roots of the inhabitants of its villages.'
203-“…"…It is only fair to acknowledge that, judged from a humane point of view, the methods of warfare pursued by the Turks are vastly superior to those which have disgraced their German masters…"
Source: Lord Kitchener, Official Report on Gallipoli as Minister of War, August 9, 1915
Part 59 of 999
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification.
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
Let’s continue with the gradual dismantling of the bogus genocide, shall we?
202- "…Ottoman Armenians were completely free in the Ottoman Empire and the Turks were the Armenians' only shelter against Russia guaranteeing their traditions, religion, culture and language in comparison to Russian oppression under the Czars..."
Source: Vartanian, Armenian historian, "History of the Armenian Movement"
203-“…Few Europeans realized that the Turkish Ottoman Sultan Suleiman was the head of the most democratic government of their time."
Source: Harold Lamb, American historian and novelist, noted for his biographies of Genghis Khan, Alexander, and Hannibal
2-4-“…"…The tolerance shown to foreign beliefs and hostile faiths by the Ottoman law and Ottoman officials which enabled them to establish their own religious institutions and to shape their own education was such that the thousand year old liberty reigning in France in the field of sects and beliefs, dating from the times of the ancient Gaul, could not be compared with it…."
Source; Talcot Williams, Turkey, A World Problem of Today, New York, 1922, p. 194
Part 60 of 999
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification.
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
Let’s continue with the gradual dismantling of the bogus genocide, shall we?
205- "…In the interest of truth I will also affirm that you saw little of the cruelty you fasten upon the Turks. Besides that you have killed more Armenians than ever lived in the districts of the uprising. The fate of those people was sad enough without having to be exaggerated as you have done.. Apart from that he (Enver Pasha) was in no respect what you picture him. Of course, if we are to take it for granted that we of the West are saints, then the Turk is any good. You will agree with me, no doubt, that the Turks count among the few gentlemen still in existence.... Ultimately truth will prevail."
Source: George A. Schreiner, distinguished war and political correspondent having served in Turkey from February through the end of 1915, in a no-holds-barred, extremely critical December 11,1918 letter to ex-Ambassador Henry Morgenthau, regarding the latter's unethically falsified, ghostwritten book (Ambassador Morgenthau's Story)
206-“…"The Osmanli (Ottoman) has yet to be heard." (The English have) "heard stories ad nauseam of massacres, of pillages, of the ravishing of women, but none of these stories have been corroborated by a single European eyewitness."
Source: Captain Charles Boswell Norman, "The Armenians Unmasked" (1895)
207-“…[T]he Turk never sticks up for himself in the controversy against Europe. He does not know how to do so... The Turk is thus the worst possible champion of his own cause. Anyone in possession of the facts could state his case much better than he can state it."
Source: Marshall Pickthall, The New Age, July 10, 1919, Vol. XXV. No. 11
Part 61 of 999
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification.
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
Let’s continue with the gradual dismantling of the bogus genocide, shall we?
208- "…[T]he Turks, as a nation, are almost ludicrously innocent of the propagandist’s art..."
Source; Arnold Toynbee, "The Western Question in Greece and Turkey: a Study in the Contact of Civilizations," 1922
209- "...I was extremely surprised at the helplessness of the Turks to avail themselves of a powerful organ of publicity ready to give them fair play... Mr. Whittaker, the Times correspondent... said:“They are hopelessly dense. Tell them that if they want the truth told they must let a correspondent manage things in his own way.” But this the authorities were either disinclined to do or incapable of doing all the time I was in Constantinople. Thus almost every bit of news I obtained came to me independently of Turkish sources, and was the result of my own individual efforts. Powerlessness on the part of the official Turks to avail themselves of an influential journal anxious to show them to the world in their true colours (surrounded by enemies and slanderers as they were on all sides, in the face of a serious crisis) was confessed to me one day in pathetic terms by Mehmet Izzet Bey, one of the Sultan’s translators, in the words:“Mon cher, nous sommes un peuple taciturne; nous ne savons pas nouse defendre.”("My dear friend, we are a taciturn people; we don't know how to defend ourselves.")
Source: Sidney Whiman, Turkish Memories, 1914
Part 62 of 999
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification.
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to ask the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
Let’s continue with the gradual dismantling of the bogus genocide, shall we?
210- "…"...In the absence of unequivocal evidence that the Ottoman administration took a specific decision to eliminate the Armenians under their control at that time, British governments have not recognized those events as indications of genocide... Nor do we believe it is the business of governments of today to review events of over 80 years ago, with a view to pronouncing on them..."
Source; Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale, Foreign Office spokesperson, on April 14, 1999; the PA News from London... reporting on yet another Armenian bid to get the British Government to recognize its "genocide."
211-“…The Turkish government felt that pressing the Turkish case against Armenians and others would rekindle old hatreds and invite war, so the Turks said nothing of their grievances. This was the right decision for the time. The unfortunate result was that no one spoke for the Turks"
Source; Justin McCarthy, Professor, University of Louisville, testifying at the Congressional Hearing on H. Res. 398 in 2000.
212-“…Whether or not hindsight and modern morality tell us that the deportations were a mistake, no one can seriously doubt the Ottoman government had reason to distrust many of the Armenians of Anatolia. Because of the assistance given by the Armenians to invading Russian armies in 1828, 1854, and 1877, the Ottomans decided they could not trust the Armenians, much as the United States, with much less justification, decided they could not trust the Americans of Japanese ancestry in World War II…"
Source; Justin McCarthy, Professor, University of Louisville, "Armenian Terrorism: History as Poison and Antidote."
Ergun Kirlikovali, Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides, www.turkla.com
jda
San Francisco, CA#483
Monday Jan 26
Quotes, I have quotes too. Ergun, everytime you write nonsense, Ataturk will follow you into print to correct the lies you spew. The more you say, the more he'll say. I wonder what he said about 4/24/1915?
Mustafa Kemal Ataturk: In a communication to General Kazim Karabekir, on May 6 1920 about attacking the fledgling Armenian Republic, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk (founder of the Turkish Republic) said:
·“The Christian world, especially America will turn against us, associating such an attack the possibility of ‘a new Armenian massacre’”[i]
Kazim Karabekir, Istiklal Harbimiz [Our war of Independence], 1969.
Mustafa Kemal Ataturk: On September 22 1919, from Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, to Major-General Harbord, the head of the American Military Mission to Armenia:
·“Kemal used the 800,000 figure to describe the number of Armenian victims. He, in fact,‘disapproved of the Armenian massacres.’(Ermeni kitlini o da takbih ediyordu).”[ii]
“Rauf Orbayin Hatiralari” Yakin Tarhimiz [Memoires of Rauf Orbay; Our Contemporary History], 1962.
Mustafa Kemal Ataturk: On April 24 1920, the day after the inauguration of the new parliament of the Turkish Republic, Ataturk stated:
·“The World War I massacres against the Armenians (Ermenilere karşi kitliam)[was] a shameful act (fazahat).”[iii]
“Ataturkün Söylev ve Demerçleri 1918-1938”(The Speeches and Statements of Atatürk) vol.1, 1945.
Mustafa Kemal Ataturk: In an interview with a French publicist he (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk) inveighed against the Ittihadist chiefs, whom he blamed for the crime against the Armenians:
·“They,[the Ittihadist] and their accomplices…deserve the gallows. Why are the Allies delaying having all these rascals hung?”[iv]
(Maurice Prax,“Constantinople: Lectures pour tous,” 1920).
Mustafa Kemal Ataturk:
·“The massacre and deportation of Armenians was the work of a small committee who had seized the power.”[v]
“Rauf Orbayin Hatiralari” Yakin Tarhimiz [Memoires of Rauf Orbay; Our Contemporary History], 1962.
Mustafa Kemal Ataturk: In an interview (Los Angeles Examiner, August 1, 1926) with Swiss journalist, Emile Hildebrand, Ataturk said:
·“These leftovers from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been accountable for the lives of millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the republican rule.”[vi]
jda Ataturk 2
San Francisco, CA#484
Monday Jan 26
Turkish Court Martial: To judge Talaat and the other criminals who participated in organizing the genocide of 1915, a Turkish Court Martial was formed on March 8, 1919.
The following is an abridged version of the accusation against them:
·“…the essential point which emerges from the open inquiry is that the crimes committed during the deportations of the Armenians in different locations and at different times were not isolated and local cases. A central force, organized by and composed of persons mentioned here, premeditated and executed them, through secret orders or verbal instructions.
The court declares unanimously the guilt of the charges mentioned earlier of the accused hereby named, members of the General Council which represent the moral person of the Ittihad. According to the disposition of the law, the Court declares the penalty of death against Talaat, Enver, Djemal and Dr. Nazim, and forced labor for 15 years against Djavid, Moustafa Cherif and Moussa Kiazim.”[vii]
(Dr. Taner Akcam, Dialogue Across an International Divide: Essays Towards a Turkish-Armenian Dialogue, 2001).
The Great Free-Mason Loge of Turkey: The Great Free-Mason Loge of Turkey voted the following motion:
·“The venerable Assembly reached the conclusion that during the last war, brothers Talaat Pasha, Midhat Chukri, Hussein Dhajid, Behaeddine Chekir, forced compatriots to leave their homes, had them assassinated, and stole their goods, and for these reasons they are expelled from the Masonic ranks.”
c2. The Turkish Journal Yeni Stamboul [viii]
General Vehib Pasha (Bukat): Commander of the Turkish Third Army
·“The massacre and destruction of the Armenians and the plunder and pillage of their goods were the result of decisions reached by Ittihad’s Central Committee…The atrocities were carried out under a program that was determined upon and involved a definite case of premeditation.”[ix]
Records of the 1919 Turkish Military Tribunal
Mustafa Arif (Deymer): Interior Minister 1918-19
·“Unfortunately, our wartime leaders, imbued with a spirit of brigandage, carried out the law of deportation in a manner that could surpass the proclivities of the most bloodthirsty bandits. They decided to exterminate the Armenians and they did exterminate them. This decision was taken by the Central Committee of the Young Turks and was implemented by the Government…The atrocities committed against the Armenians reduced our country to a gigantic slaughterhouse.”[x]
(VAKIT, 13 Dec. 1918)
Halide Edib: American Educated Feminist Writer
·“…Indeed, we tried to destroy the Armenians through methods peculiar to the Middle Ages. We are living today the saddest and darkest times of our national life.”[xi]
(VAKIT, 22 Oct. 1918)
Dr. Taner Akcam: University of Michigan, The Long Denied Armenian Genocide, Le Monde Diplomatique, 2003.
·“Turks and their history books still cannot accept that there was an organized mass murder of Armenians between 1915 and 1917. Perhaps that is because so many of the murderers and looters were also heroes of the founding of the modern Turkish republic.
“The founder of modern Turkey, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, spoke on the subject dozens of times; he condemned the massacres, which he called infamous, and demanded that those who were guilty be punished.”[xii]
Falih Rifik Atay, a close friend and confidant of Ataturk, a former Ittihadist, and Kemalist publicist:
· When discussing the persecution of World War I Armenian massacres, he too saw fit to characterize them as “genocide,” using exactly this composite Greco Latin term, at the same time lamenting the fact that there were:
“…alternative remedies [to the Armenian problem]; why incur the risk of dishonoring the name of the nation? Mustafa Kemal too was against the genocide.”[xiii]
Halil Berktay: Professor of History at the University of Sabanci in Istanbul
·
Ergun Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#485
Monday Jan 26
The "rat" hidden in Ararat writes falsifications again.
Prof Turkkaya Ataov proved that there was no truth to the Armenian claims about the alleged quotes by Ataturk; they are mere misrepresentations.(Can you believe an Armenian who hides behind fake names just to mislead the public opinion? Who do you believe, this honest Turk, or that rat in ararat?)
Fake names, fake quotes, fake claims... That's Armenian genopcide for you...
Human suffering? By golly, yes! But on both sides...
If ytou ignore the Armenian propaganda, agitation, terror, raids, rebellions, treason, territorials demands, and Tyrkjish dead caused by all this, then what is left of the story? Then it may appear like genocide.
They'll talk about "poor starving Armenians", I proved here with million quotes, time and again, that Armenians were better armed than Turks and did not hesitate to use them (as Morgenthau himself said in his book.)
Who do you believe? This lying rat in ararat? Or this honset Turk?
The "rat" in Ararat writes falsifications again.
Prof Turkkaya Ataov proved that there was no truth to the Armenian claims about the alleged quotes by Ataturk; they are mere misrepresentations.
Can you believe an Armenian who hides behind fake names just to mislead the public opinion? Who do you believe, this honest Turk, or the rat in ararat?)
Fake names, fake quotes, fake claims... That's Armenian genocide for you...
Human suffering? By golly, yes! But on both sides...
If you ignore the Armenian propaganda, agitation, terror, raids, rebellions, treason, territorial demands, and Turkish dead caused by all this, between 1890 and 1921, then what is left of the story? Then it may appear like genocide. Then, again, any war totally stripped of one side of the story, can look like a genocide, American Civil War included.
The AFATH community (Armenian falsifiers and Turk haters) will talk about "poor starving Armenians"; whereas, I proved here with million quotes, time and again, that Armenians were better armed than Turks and did not hesitate to use them (as even Morgenthau himself said in his book.)
So who do you believe? The lying rat in ararat? Or this honest Turk?
Ergun KIRLIKOVALI
(a real name with real accounts; just bitter facts, no bull)
Son of Turkish survivors whose pain and suffering is ridiculed by the rat in ararat
www.turkla.com
jda Ataturk 2
San Francisco, CA#487
Monday Jan 26
Ergun,
So far as I have read, Ataov addressed only the 1926 quote, and his [desperate]work was full of speculation and wishful thinking. Are you claiming he also showed the 20 plus other Ataturk quotes were false? One doubts Armenians in 1923-1927 were able to put Ataturk's (allegedly false) words in print. Please provide a citation to his work.
By the way, have you forgotten Ataturk's celebrated adopted orphan daughter - you know,Turkey's first female aviator - was Armenian? Her parents were killed in the Genocide you deny. Ataturk raised her. Remember?
April 24 is right around the corner. Keep chanting "Armenian-Turkish civil war". Keep repeating your six acronyms.[I suggest a seventh-"dum-dumber" meaning its dumb to deny the Genocide and dumber still to do it at the top of your metaphoric lungs].
Your work is unlikely to make the phrase "Armenian Genocide" disappear. Since you began writing your gibberish, you have helped publicize not only the Genocide, but also the racism behind its denial,and its perpetration. If you didn't exist, some Armenian would have invented you.
Next thing, we'll find out your ancestors were merely converted Greeks who chose life and Islam at the point of a sword over death and Christ. Take a look in the mirror...you look Macedonian/Slavic, not Anatolian. Sure, put on a turban and start smoking a water pipe frantically. Lose the baseball hat,pal, you're pushing 60.
Yes, I know, there are plenty of fair Turks. They all had Serbian slave ancestors. Have you looked at a typical Uzbek lately?
I can't find any source about the village you say your father was shipped out of, nor do I see anything anywhere about the train to Istanbul. I contacted Professors of Balkan history here and overseas who say they have never heard of such trains in 1912 or otherwise. Little bit of a family fib?
By the way, in November and December 1912, the Moslems in the Salonica area had their hands full slaughtering the Greeks. They also say that the "Turks" of the area around Salonica were merely Islamized Greeks. Like the Kosovars being Islamized Christians, not Turks.
If you thought you were perceived as a Turk by real Turks, you wouldn't try so hard. Do you have your wii calibrated to play buzkashi?
jda Ataturk 2
San Francisco, CA#488
Monday Jan 26
Ergun,
Sultan of Coto,
Vizier of Orange County,
Oh Great One,
Maker of Resins,
We await, trembling, your analytic power
jda Ataturk 2
San Francisco, CA#489
Monday Jan 26
Dear Spirit of Ataurk,
The enemies surround me, just as the Greeks, French and British surrounded you. I hold aloft the sacred Goat-head, emblem of our sacred Ergenekon racial beginnings, and implore you for help. And could you send it overnnight/urgent on fedex before the drop-off, please?
The Armenians just won't go away, they must have secret Turkish genes. The Greeks, Kurds, Lebanese, and Assyrians are pissed. And now the Alewis and left-wingers and Professors are acting up. Yesterday some friggin' actor admitted killing 10 Greeks on Cyprus. The week before some dingbat in Anatolia gave his farm to the Assyrian Church, saying he realized it had been stolen during the Assyrian Genocide, Christ, everybody has a Genocide they say was our fault. Who's next? Navajos? I forgot, they are Turks, we're safe there.
Soon, the US congress which they control will defame our ancestors, by saying bad things about our Glorious CUP leaders. By the way, after you kicked the bucket, Hitler was nice enough to send Talat's remains, but we've got them in what looks like the world's biggest marble wind tunnel. I understand you and he were not the best of friends.
I pray, oh glorious leader, that I may have the strength to keep copying and pasting in our heroic struggle to confuse and make muddy.
Your faithful stooge,
Goon
jda Ataturk 2
San Francisco, CA#490
Monday Jan 26
Prayer number 2
And, oh great one, disasterous news on the genetics front...
You'll remember how Ergenekon story says that a band of 600 suspiciously Nordic looking ur-Turk dudes headed off from some Central Asian shangri-la, to colonize Armenia, oops, I mean Turkey. Instead of a AAA guide book, they got their directions from two really scary looking wolf-dogs.
Well, even though me and my friends and associates all agree that we look just like friggin' Genghiz Khan down to the droopy 'staches[named my cockapoo after Genghiz, gotta represent to my homies], I read this turd in the genetic punchbowl:
"DNA results suggests the lack of strong genetic relationship between the Mongols and the Turks despite the close relationship of their languages and shared historical neighborhood. Anatolians do not significantly differ from other Mediterraneans, indicating that while the ancient Asian Turks carried out an invasion with cultural significance, it is not genetically detectable."
WTF, dude, are they saying we're just Islamized Armo's, Greeks, Arabs and Assyrians? That is totally unacceptable, dude. I am a brave Turk, no way can i be of these other groups. Just ask Turkes, he knows what time it is.
Please send me enlightenment, or order the bad scientists all dead.
Thanks again,
goon.
Ergun Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#491
Tuesday Jan 27
Part 63 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations.
They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification. Also, they will take any opportunity to turn this debate into a shouting match.
So, I suggest we keep our cool and go back to our educational process of discussing facts. Let’s leave Armenian propaganda to the AFATH (Armenian falsifiers and Turk haters) community. Let’s continue with the gradual dismantling of the 90+ years of bogus genocide, shall we?
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to remind the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
213-"…Any comparison between the Ottomans and the Nazis is ludicrous, as is the use of the word genocide to describe the actions of the Turks. What passed between the Armenians and the Turks was not genocide; it was war… If any people were the victims of genocide, it was the Crimean Tatars, victims in their own homeland of a planned extermination begun by Catherine the Great and ended by Joseph Stalin…"
Source: Justin McCarthy, Professor, University of Louisville, "Armenian Terrorism History as Poison and Antidote."
214-“…The Armenians were retreating before the Ottoman Army. They were in danger. Yet they stopped whenever they could to kill the innocent Muslims of Erzurum, despite the risk to their own safety. This kind of hatred and madness cannot be explained. It is often falsely claimed that the Turks committed a genocide of the Armenians. Yet this was the real genocide, a genocide of the Turks..."
Source: Justin McCarthy, Professor, University of Louisville, "The Destruction of Ottoman Erzurum by Armenians," 2002
215-“… Neither political nor legal or material claims against present-day Turkey can be derived from the recognition of this historical event as an act of genocide..."
Source: European Parliament, 1987 resolution
Part 64 of 999
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations.
They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification. Also, they will take any opportunity to derail this debate by turning it into a shouting match. So, I suggest we keep our cool and go back to our educational process of discussing facts. Let’s leave Armenian propaganda to the AFATH (Armenian falsifiers and Turk haters) community. Let’s continue with the gradual dismantling of the 90+ years of bogus genocide, shall we?
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to remind the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
216-"...The two parties forego their rights to ask for damages because of the changes which took place as a result of the general war…"
Source: Armenia and Turkey, Article 8 of the Treaty of Gumru/Alexandropol, wherein Dashnags agreed in "closing the doors FOREVER to reparations," in the words of Arthur Derounian (John Roy Carlson)(Sorry, Diaspora Armenians, you are spinning your wheels for nothing… No money!)
217-“…We considered the Azerbaijani Turks as Tatars, yet they were a good people. Armenians, on the other hand, are provocateurs in a single word…”
Source: Frunze, Red Army commander, in a coded telegram to Lenin sent from Batum, 23 November 1921; Russian archives.
218-“…I scolded them for their stupid actions. I explained [to] them the stupidity of wasting on the Azerbaijanis, the weapons that we gave them to use on the Turks...”
Source: Lord Curzon, regarding his meeting with Boghos Nubar and Avetis Aharonian in London, April 11 1920; Bilal Simsir,'Ermeni Meselesi - 1774-2005,' Sept. 2005, p. 331.
Part 65 of 999
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations.
They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification. Also, they will take any opportunity to derail this debate by turning it into a shouting match. So, I suggest we keep our cool and go back to our educational process of discussing facts. Let’s leave Armenian propaganda to the AFATH (Armenian falsifiers and Turk haters) community. Let’s continue with the gradual dismantling of the 90+ years of bogus genocide, shall we?
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to remind the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
219- "...The Turk obeys the dictates of his religion, the Christian does not; the Turk does not drink, the Christian gets drunk; the Turk is honest; the Christian is a liar and a cheat; his religion is so overgrown with the rank weeds of superstition that it no longer serves to guide his mind…"
Source: Lord Robert Curzon, Armenia: a Year at Erzeroom, and on the Frontiers of Russia, Turkey and Persia, London (John Murray), 1854; Curzon, somewhat of an adventurer during his youth, lived among the Armenians for a year in the 1850s, and found little to admire... "typical of dozens of other 19th century travelers of many nationalities," opines Paul Henze.
( Just look at the writings of that swindler here who calls himself j, jd, jda, manukyan, pierre, hasan, burcu, john, bob, Ararat, and million other fake names. They are all one and the same person; the same rat in Ararat… The same Pinocchian…Deceiving the unsuspecting public with much discredited Armenian propaganda material while cowardly hiding behind fake names.)
220-“…One may recognize fully the agreeable and attractive personal qualities of the Turks that commonly make them the best liked, probably, of all the peoples of the Empire, and that almost unconsciously turn most foreigners who stay long in the country into pro-Turks..."
Source: King-Crane Commission report
221-“…Their loyalty, their unblemished honesty, their endless hospitality, their religious tolerance, their moral elegance, and natural tact do give affectionate deposition for the Turks in front of the tribunal of humanity… To speak about the Armenian race, is for me, more painful than one would believe, because their unfortunate 'incidents' render me almost scared…"
Source; Pierre Loti, French writer and traveler
Part 66 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations.
They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification. Also, they will take any opportunity to derail this debate by turning it into a shouting match. So, I suggest we keep our cool and go back to our educational process of discussing facts. Let’s leave Armenian propaganda to the AFATH (Armenian falsifiers and Turk haters) community. Let’s continue with the gradual dismantling of the 90+ years of bogus genocide, shall we?
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to remind the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
222-“…I have yet to meet a foreigner living in this part of the world and unbiased by politics, religion or pecuniary benefits from condemning the Turks, who has not most empathically stated that of all the races represented in the population of the old Turkish Empire, the Turks by far are the best people…"
Source: E. Alexander Powell, American journalist and author,"The Struggle for Power in Moslem Asia," 1923.
(Just look at me, using my real name for many years in the hotbed of Armenian terrorism: Southern California. This is where Armenian terrorism was resurrected in 1973 by Yanikian who shot two Turkish diplomats in a hotel room and then made a public statement boasting about killing “two devils.” And then in 1982, a young Armenian assassinated another Tyrkish diplomate on Wilkshire Boulevard in broad daylight. Armenians like jda hid this killer in their homes and then later collected money for his legal defense. When Sassoonian was finally brought to court, he was still flashing “V” signs to the TV cameras while wearing an ugly grin on his murderous face. Hundreds of Armenian acts of terrorism followed these killings. There was even an Armenian bomb planted in Disneyland, of all places! Yet, I write in my real name while this coward Armenian uses the fake name ararat, directing our attention to the rat in ararat.)
223-“…Nearly everyone who touches upon the kernel of the nation learns to respect and love Turks, to humiliate Greeks, to hate and despise Armenians... Everywhere justifies the proverb, that the Greek defrauds 2 Jews, but the Armenian defrauds 2 Greeks. Certainly, if you have been defrauded in Anatolia, so you had a business with an Armenian…When I had business with Turks, I didn't need a written document, because his vow was enough. When I had business with Greeks, I was in need to sign the written document, because it is important for them. But when I had business with Armenians, I didn't sign any documents, because even the written document can't provide a barrier for their mendacity and intrigue…"
Source: German traveler, from the book "Outlines of Anatolia," p..6, p.188-191
(Reading some of the earlier comments above from Americans who are swindled by Armenians in this day and age makes one think if there is anything changed since 19th century on the Armenian front... or if Armenians did not get even worse since then… Food for thought…)
Part 67 of 999
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations.
They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification. Also, they will take any opportunity to derail this debate by turning it into a shouting match. So, I suggest we keep our cool and go back to our educational process of discussing facts.
Let’s leave Armenian propaganda to the AFATH (Armenian falsifiers and Turk haters) community. Let’s continue with the gradual dismantling of the 90+ years of bogus genocide, shall we?
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to remind the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
224-“…The Turks I saw in Lawrence of Arabia and Midnight Express were (...) like cartoon caricatures compared to the people I had known and lived among for three of the happiest years of my life…"
Source: Mary Lee Settle, writer and traveler; Turkish Reflections: A Biography Of A Place (New York, Prentice Hall Press, 1991)
225-“…If the reader entertains any delusions about a fine civilization, either Persian, Roman, Hellenic, or Egyptian, being submerged by this flood (the advance of Islam), the sooner he dismisses such ideas the better. Islam prevailed because it was the best social and political order the times could offer...”
Source: H. G. Wells, famed British writer (Remember his unforgettable work:“The Invisible Man”?)
226-“… America should feed the half million Turks whose hinterland was willfully demolished by the retreating Greeks, instead of aiding the Greeks and Armenians who are sitting around waiting for America to give them their next meal. The stories of Turk atrocities circulated among American churches are a mess of lies. I believe that the Greeks and not the Turks are barbarians…”
Source: Colonel William Haskell, the American Red Cross; returning from a tour of investigation in the Near East. Source: The Turkish Myth, 1923. Here is what the colonel thought of the Armenians, according to Dr. Richard Hovannisian.
Part 68 of 999
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations.
They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification. Also, they will take any opportunity to derail this debate by turning it into a shouting match. So, I suggest we keep our cool and go back to our educational process of discussing facts.
Let’s leave Armenian propaganda to the AFATH (Armenian falsifiers and Turk haters) community. Let’s continue with the gradual dismantling of the 90+ years of bogus genocide, shall we?
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to remind the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
227-“…(This) one-sided and unreliable information (about any people will) after a long period of unchallenged time, would create hostility and hatred that would not be easily overcome...”
Source: Cyrus Hamlin, co-founder of the American missionary college in Istanbul (Robert College), opining on anti-Turkish propaganda. That’s why I still hold the New York Times as one of the responsible parties for the human tragedy that unfolded in Anatolia due the fanning the flames of hatred with unsubstantiated, embellished stories supplied by Armenian revolutionaries through the missionaries and/or U.S. diplomats.
228-“…(The Turk never deigns to explain his own case while) the pro-Armenians always manage to hold the field, appalling the public by incessant reiteration and exaggeration as to the number of victims, and apparently valuing to its full extent the wisdom of the old Eastern proverb give a lie twenty-four hours start, and it will take a hundred years to overtake it."
Source: C.F. Dixon-Johnson, British author of the 1916 book, "The Armenians."
Ergun Kirlikovali Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides, www.turkla.com
jda
San Mateo, CA#497
Tuesday Jan 27
Goon, I suggest prayer:
Dear Spirit of Ataurk,
The enemies surround me, just as the Greeks, French and British surrounded you. I hold aloft the sacred Goat-head, emblem of our sacred Ergenekon racial beginnings, and implore you for help. And could you send it overnnight/urgent on fedex before the 5;30 pm drop-off, please?
The Armenians just won't go away, they must have secret Turkish endurance genes. The Greeks, Kurds, Israelis, Hzbullah, Lebanese, and Assyrians are pissed at us. And now the Alewis and left-wingers and Professors are acting up. Don't get me started on the AK party, I'll be damned if Ms. Turkey wears a headscarf.
Yesterday some friggin' Turkish actor admitted killing 10 Greeks on Cyprus while he served in the glorious Army. The week before some dingbat in Anatolia gave his farm to the Assyrian Church, saying he realized it had been stolen during the Assyrian Genocide,
Christ, everybody has a Genocide they say was our fault. Who's next? Navajos? I forgot, they are Turks, we're safe there. And I don't have to tell you about the apology petition, plus its two years since Dink got it. Oof, we said we condemned it, why are they saying its our fault?
Send us a new PR firm, oh great one. Maybe Oprah is available.
Soon, the US congress which the Glendale Tashnags control will defame our ancestors, by saying bad things about our Glorious CUP leaders. By the way, after you kicked the bucket, Hitler was nice enough to send Talat's remains, but we've got them in what looks like the world's biggest marble wind tunnel. I understand you and he were not the best of friends. Still, can I get some love on this, maybe turn Talat's final resting place into an upscale downtown destination?
I pray, oh glorious leader, that I may have the strength to keep copying and pasting in our heroic struggle to confuse and obfuscate. In the meantime, I'm hoping for April 25 to roll around, think I'll be in Cabo the week before. Any Armo's in Mexico?
Your faithful stooge,
Goon
Prayer number 2
And, oh great one, disasterous news on the genetics front...
You'll remember how Ergenekon story says that a band of 600 suspiciously Nordic looking ur-Turk dudes headed off from some Central Asian shangri-la, to colonize Armenia, oops, I mean Turkey. Instead of a AAA guide book, they got their directions from two really scary looking wolf-dogs.
Well, even though me and my friends and associates all agree that we look just like friggin' Genghiz Khan down to the droopy 'staches[named my cockapoo after Genghiz, gotta represent to my homies], I read this turd in the genetic punchbowl:
"DNA results suggests the lack of strong genetic relationship between the Mongols and the Turks despite the close relationship of their languages and shared historical neighborhood. Anatolians do not significantly differ from other Mediterraneans, indicating that while the ancient Asian Turks carried out an invasion with cultural significance, it is not genetically detectable."
WTF, dude, are they saying we're just Islamized Armo's, Greeks, Arabs and Assyrians? That is totally unacceptable, dude. I am a brave Turk, no way can i be of these other groups. Just ask Turkes, he knows what time it is.
Please send me enlightenment, or order the bad scientists all dead.
Thanks again,
goon.
jda
San Mateo, CA#498
Tuesday Jan 27
Goon's favorite pic:
http://www.temizeller.net/temizhaber/haber_im...
aka Mr Water
Temecula, CA#499
Tuesday Jan 27
Armenian chicks have hairy nipples. Whats up with that?
jda
San Francisco, CA#500
Tuesday Jan 27
Ergun,
MORE TO PRAY ABOUT:
Hurriyet Daily News with wires
ISTANBUL - Two leading suspects in the murder of prominent Turkish-Armenian journalist Hrant Dink fought one another in the eighth hearing of the case in a local court in Beşiktaş.
Yasin Hayal and Erhan Tuncel, two suspected inciters of Dink’s murder argued and Hayal struck Tuncel, who was sitting in front of him.
The brother of Yasin Hayal, Osman Hayal, said, "My brother is a victim of a plot. Everything happened after he met Erhan Tuncel," reported the private news site CNNTürk. Tuncel intervened and said, "What does it have to do with me?" Yasin Hayal replied, "You get the money, you get the wage, I have the trouble." Hayal then punched Tuncel, causing the judge to send them out of the courtroom. After the murder, it was disclosed that Tuncel was working as a police informer at the time. The gunman, Ogün Samast, did not participate in the hearing.
Not remembering
Osman Hayal, who is being tried without being kept in custody, testified in court that he had nothing to do with the murder. Hayal said the only thing he knew was that he was in Istanbul on the date of murder and nothing more.
"It is a complete coincidence that I left Istanbul one hour after the murder," he said. Arzu Becerik, the Dink family’s lawyer, said there were contradictions in Osman Hayal’s testimonies. Hayal had given evidence previously as a witness and was added as a suspect to the case after it was disclosed he was in Istanbul on the date of the murder.
Zafer Üskül, head of the parliamentary commission on human rights, Sebahat Tuncel and Akın Birdal, Democratic Society Party, or DTP, deputies, Ufuk Uras, deputy of the Freedom and Solidarity Party, or ÖDP, and the Dink family also participated in the hearing, private news site BİANET reported. Dink was shot and died on Jan. 17, 2007, in central Şişli in front of the building of the multilingual weekly Agos, where he was the editor in chief.
Ergun Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#501
Tuesday Jan 27
Part 69 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations.
They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification. Also, they will take any opportunity to derail this debate by turning it into a shouting match. So, I suggest we keep our cool and go back to our educational process of discussing facts. Let’s leave Armenian propaganda to the AFATH (Armenian falsifiers and Turk haters) community. Let’s continue with the gradual dismantling of the 90+ years of bogus genocide, shall we?
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to remind the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
229-“…These Huntchagist bands, organized all over the empire, will watch their opportunities to kill Turks and Kurds, set fire to their villages and then make their escape into the mountains. The enraged Moslems will then rise and fall upon the defenseless Armenians and slaughter them with such barbarities that Russia will enter in the name of humanity and Christian civilization and take possession…
Source: Dr. Cyrus Hamlin, in an 1893 American magazine article... where the reverend appealed to missionaries to denounce "the abominations" of Armenian terror; his near-lone voice of sanity among the Christian flock was ignored.(BTW, I lived in Hamlin Hall during my college years, a magnificent building by the breathtakingly beautiful Bosphorus, Istanbul, named after this man. A tid-bit that may help spice up this debate nearly destroyed by that lying rat in Ararat.)
230-“…I do ... believe the Armenians ... especially should not be allowed to govern other people; and certainly, if any of the other races here in this part of the country are under the Armenians, they are going to be submitted to oppression and outrage..."
Source: Rear Admiral Marc L. Bristol, in his March 28, 1921 letter to Dr. James L. Barton.(Given modern Armenia's abominable treatment of minorities, Admiral Bristol was right on the money.)
Part 70 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations.
They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification. Also, they will take any opportunity to derail this debate by turning it into a shouting match. So, I suggest we keep our cool and go back to our educational process of discussing facts.
Let’s leave Armenian propaganda to the AFATH (Armenian falsifiers and Turk haters) community. Let’s continue with the gradual dismantling of the 90+ years of bogus genocide, shall we?
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to remind the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
231- "…The Armenian, the Jew or the African should not damage their development with a continual conditioning of hate; neither should spurious guilt be vented upon others..These negative preoccupations and obsessions are obstructing our evolution...”
Source: Robert John (Hovhanes), Armenian historian; The Reporter, "America's Leading Armenian Newspaper," August 2, 1984
232-“…Demonizing others lays foundation for a dark cycle of hatred…"
Source: George W. Bush, United States President, in a 2002 message to Armenian-Americans, during April 24 (the commemoration of the Armenian "Genocide"), where he also reminded his Armenian citizens that "Transcending this venomous pattern requires painful introspection about the past and wise determination to forge for a new future based on truth and reconciliation.."
233-“…[T]o curse at Muslims and especially at Turks, to talk much about the Armenian Genocide, and to remind others constantly of the brutality of the Turks are all regarded as expressions of patriotism. Among the leaders of the past we consider those who curse Turks and killed Turks to be the most patriotic. Our most recent heroes are those who assassinated Turkish diplomats in European cities...[this] is the dominant mentality…"
Source: Rafael Ishkhanian, "The Law of Excluding the Third Force," in Gerard Libaridian's Armenia at the Crossroads; Democracy and Nationhood in the Post-Soviet Era, 1991, p. 10.
Part 71 of 999
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations.
They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification. Also, they will take any opportunity to derail this debate by turning it into a shouting match. So, I suggest we keep our cool and go back to our educational process of discussing facts.
Let’s leave Armenian propaganda to the AFATH (Armenian falsifiers and Turk haters) community. Let’s continue with the gradual dismantling of the 90+ years of bogus genocide, shall we?
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to remind the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
234-“…Our patriotism is nothing if not anti-Turkism, and the most patriotic Armenian is the most anti-Turkish. In general, for an Armenian, anti-Turkism and patriotism are directly proportional…"
Source: Vartan Harutiunyan, in a thought-provoking piece entitled "Patriotism versus Patria." (If that’s the case, then the rat in ararat who fills this column with fake names and anti-Turkish falsifications must be the most nationalist Armenian. Go figure!)
235-“…I heard, in Oxford English, more stories of Armenians murdering Turks when the czarist troops fled north... Then they spoke of the hell that would break loose if Versailles were to put, as threatened, the six 'Armenian' vilayets of Turkey under the control of Erevan. Muslims under Christian rule? His lips smacked in irony under the droopy red moustache. That's bloodshed — just Smyrna over again on a bigger scale."
Source: Robert Dunn, American officer in Eastern Turkey, 1919; upon hearing a conversation between British officers.'World Alive, A Personal Story,' Crown Publishers, New York (1952), pg. 309 or 358.
236-“…Armenians... cannot expect this country (Great Britain)— or any other one — to choose any area in Turkey, to chase away from there all other races, to increase the Armenian population there under the shadow of British bayonets, and to thus organize a national Armenian existence there with exorbitant taxes to be extracted from the British people. Even the thought of it cannot go beyond being a raw fancy..."
Source: Lord Curzon, British statesman, PRO, FO. 800/151, 6.xii.1921
Part 72 of 999
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations.
They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification. Also, they will take any opportunity to derail this debate by turning it into a shouting match. So, I suggest we keep our cool and go back to our educational process of discussing facts. Let’s leave Armenian propaganda to the AFATH (Armenian falsifiers and Turk haters) community.
Let’s continue with the gradual dismantling of the 90+ years of bogus genocide, shall we?
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to remind the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
237-“…British promises to Armenians were exactly like their promises to Arabs in Syria, Palestine and Mesopotamia; they were made with the purpose of encouraging the war efforts of the Armenians, to influence neutral states in favor of England and to excite the separatist tendencies in ethnic minorities under the rule of these neutral states so as to make their enemy, the Ottoman Empire, collapse from the inside..."
Source: A. H Arslanian, British Wartime Pledges, 1917-1918: The Armenian Case, Journal of Contemporary History, Vol. 13, 1978 (page 522)
238-“…The Armenians were very well treated for hundreds of years by the Turks, until Russia, in the first place, started using them as pawns for purely political purposes; they exploited them as Christians, solely as pawns…"
Source: Lieutenant Colonel T. Williams (Labour Party M.P.), Parliamentary Debates (Commons), London 25.ii.1924, vol. 170
239-“…(The Armenian) community constitutes the very life of Turkey, for the Turks, long accustomed to rule rather than serve, have relinquished to them all branches of industry. Hence the Armenians are the bankers, merchants, mechanics, and traders of all sorts in Turkey… Besides, there exists a congeniality and community of interest between them and the Musulmans ...(Pashas to peasants owe) them ... so that without them the Osmanlis could not survive a single day…”
Source: H. Oscanyan, Armenian author, The Sultan and his People, 1857, p. 353?.
Part 73 of 999
240-“…I believe that it won’t be a mistake to consider this Third Period, that is the Tanzimat, to be the golden age of Armenians. During this period, which we regard as the most bountiful and favourable one of all, Armenians advanced in every field and could reach higher positions by showing themselves and earning confidence and trust of the Government..."
Source: Y.G. Cark, Armenian priest, Türk Devleti Hizmetinde Ermeniler, 1453-1953.[Armenians in the service of the Turkish State,1453 –1953], Istanbul, 1953, p. 44.
241-“…Our world is plagued with what I'd like to call 'International Terrorism.' Let us not forget that this type of terrorism can only be eradicated with the mutual determination and the complete cooperation of all the governments of the Western world…"
Source: Kenan Evren, President of the Turkish Republic, 1981; it would take a generation and 9/11 before the Americans got the idea and started fighting terrorism globally. If the West did not look the other way when the Armenian terrorism was victimizing Turks, today’s El Kaida would probably not be encouraged. Turks kept urging the West to stop playing “my terrorist is better than your terrorist” and fight all terrorists everywhere. Sad but true.
242-“….In some towns containing ten Armenian houses and thirty Turkish houses, it was reported that 40,000 people were killed, about 10,000 women were taken to the harem, and thousands of children left destitute; and the city university destroyed, and the bishop killed. It is a well-known fact that even in the last war the native Christians, despite the Turkish cautions, armed themselves and fought on the side of the Allies. In these conflicts, they were not idle, but they were well supplied with artillery, machine guns and inflicted heavy losses on their enemies…"
Source: George M. Lamsa, a missionary known for his research on Christianity, "The Secret of the Near East," The Ideal Press, Philadelphia (1923), page 133 (Some missionaries did have their hearts in the right place, after all, and Samsa was certainly one of them.)
Ergun Kirlikovali Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
jda
San Francisco, CA#506
Tuesday Jan 27
Ergun:
I think they're copying you in Iran:
Iran's government spokesman on Tuesday branded the Holocaust a "big lie" created to place the Islamic republic's arch-foe Israel in the Middle East, the state IRNA news agency reported.
"The Holocaust is a concept coming from a big lie in order to settle a rootless regime in the heart of the Islamic world," Gholam Hossein Elham told a conference on Gaza in central Iran's religious city of Qom.
It was not the first time an Iranian official has questioned the massacre of Jews by Nazis in World War II.
Iran does not recognise Israel, and since his election in 2005 President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has attracted international condemnation by repeatedly predicting that the Jewish state is doomed to disappear.
In late 2005 Ahmadinejad branded the Holocaust a "myth." His comment was followed by a conference in Tehran in 2006 that brought together Holocaust deniers and revisionists.
A mass-circulation Iranian newspaper also staged a controversial cartoon competition on the subject.
In September last year a group of Iranian Islamist students unveiled a book mocking the Holocaust and filled with anti-Semitic stereotypes and revisionist arguments.
The United Nations designated January 27 as international Holocaust memorial day in 2005, marking the date Soviet troops liberated the largest Nazi death camp, Auschwitz-Birkenau, in Poland.
jda
San Francisco, CA#507
Tuesday Jan 27
ERGUN AT MONGOLIAN BARBECUE
Waiter: Welcome to Mongolian Barbecue
Ergun: My Brother! I share with you a glorious history of Mongol and Turkic Blood and deeds! I am thrilled to be here, with our blood relatives of the Steppes, founders of the 17 Empires, heroes of all History. We toast Genghiz, Timur the Lame, and all the Great Khans! Do you serve mare's blood? I set up a yurt in the backyard for the grandchildren. The Cockapoo likes it a lot. Hail my Mongol brother!
Waiter: I'm Chinese. Want to order?
Ergun Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#508
Tuesday Jan 27
Jda,
Your writings are like the fake names you select to hide behind. Take ararat, for instance, a fake name you often use for your falsifications. You see a mountain in it, but I see a rat!
The rat in ararat,
I wonder why you ignored the question in posting #499 by aka Mr Water of Temecula, CA. Was it too hairy for you?
Ergun Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#510
Tuesday Jan 27
( I apologize to those open-minded truth-seekers, for digressing a bit, but I cannot resist sticking to that notorious Armenian falsifier (the one who hides behind fake names) every now and then. Let’s go back to our debate. I hope you find the verifiable sources I quote educational. You are welcome to compile all my writings into a brochure of some sort and distribute to your friends. You can ignore the insults, lies, and threats posted by jda who may appear under million fake names, as jda’s posts are designed to derail this debate and silence me. We cannot have an Armenian falsifier win, can we?)
***
Part 75 of 999
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations.
They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification. Also, they will take any opportunity to derail this debate by turning it into a shouting match. So, I suggest we keep our cool and go back to our educational process of discussing facts.
Let’s leave Armenian propaganda to the AFATH (Armenian falsifiers and Turk haters) community. Let’s continue with the gradual dismantling of the 90+ years of bogus genocide, shall we?
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to remind the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
243-(Regarding the 'evidence' against the Malta Tribunal deportees): "...Very few were available, that Armenian Patriarchate at Istanbul had been the principal channel through which information had been obtained, and that none of allied, associated and neutral Governments had been asked to supply evidence..."
Source: Sir H. Rumbold, His Majesty's High Commissioner at Istanbul as the head of the occupying powers, in a report to London
(EK’s note: Two points here.
1) Even the information supplied by the Armenian Patriarchate was not deemed court-worthy and Malta Tribunal could not start relying on such a bunch of hearsay and falsifications.
2) The Brits did ask the Americans for evidence to be used in Malta Tribunal to convict the Turkish leaders but the research turned up empty. Lots of gory stories and tall tales for sure, but nothing that could stand the scrutiny of a court room. So the Malta Tribunal was abandoned. Meaning? Armenian claims of unprovoked mass-murder of an unarmed minority by the Ottoman government could not be substantiated to the satisfaction of a courtroom. That is why the Armenians never take Turkey to court; they know their evidence will be ripped to shreds by Turks in any competent tribunal where due process is followed. That is why Armenians pressure politicians where you can write up pretty much any message you like and politicians will ram it through the system as a resolution. That is why we have umpteen resolutions calling the Turkish-Armenian conflict a genocide but no court verdict doing a la Nuremberg. That is also why Turks always dare Armenians to prove their claim at a court room.)
Part 76 of 999
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations.
They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification. Also, they will take any opportunity to derail this debate by turning it into a shouting match. So, I suggest we keep our cool and go back to our educational process of discussing facts.
Let’s leave Armenian propaganda to the AFATH (Armenian falsifiers and Turk haters) community. Let’s continue with the gradual dismantling of the 90+ years of bogus genocide, shall we?
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to remind the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
244-“…The Armenians were pleasantly accepted in London. The Gladstone Cabinet invited the unpleased ones, classified them, put them in order and promised to support them. Henceforth, the propaganda committee was established in London which was going to be the source of inspiration…"
Source: Paul Cambon, French ambassador in Istanbul, probably reporting to the Quai d'Orsay in 1894, "Yellow Book," (1893-1897)
245-“…The culpability of Armenians leaves no doubt."
Source: Philippe de Zara, Mustapha Kemal, Dictateur (Paris, 1936)(See, even anti-Turks and even after many decades believe that Armenian complicity in war crimes turn this issue into a civil war, whether the Armenians like the term or not.)
246-“…And the unarmed Armenian villagers were forced to help the armed rebels at the cost of their blood… If Turks were (thieves) and (brigands) like (Europeans claim, the) Armenians (would not) have had their prosperous lives, which continued until 1896…"
Source: General Mayewsky, Ambassador to Erzurum and Van, commenting on massacres by Armenians in the late 19th Century, translated from the Russian language, "The Statistic of Van and Bitlis Provinces," Ottoman Military Printing Office (1914)(Note: Russians were the mentors and political supporters of Ottoman-Armenians. For them to say things like that should make any open-minded truth-seeker alert to ubiquitous Armenian falsifications demonizing Turks.)
Ergun Kirlikovali Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
jda San Mateo, CA#512
Tuesday Jan 27
Ergun.
You're not even a Turk. Why do you try so hard to please an audience that pays no attention to you?
There is no audience except me and Mr. Murphy.
Ergun Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#513
Tuesday Jan 27
and the rat in ararat...
Part 77 of 999
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations.
They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification. Also, they will take any opportunity to derail this debate by turning it into a shouting match. So, I suggest we keep our cool and go back to our educational process of discussing facts.
Let’s leave Armenian propaganda to the AFATH (Armenian falsifiers and Turk haters) community. Let’s continue with the gradual dismantling of the 90+ years of bogus genocide, shall we?
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to remind the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
247-“…They (the revolutionaries) were also not letting those Armenians who would not help them live. For example, there was a mayor here. If I'm not mistaken, his name was Kapamaciyan, and they had his son kill him because he was not very supportive of them..."
Source: Mehmet Resit Efendi, Turkish survivor of the 1915 Armenian Revolt in Van. The unbiased Moslem majority of the city elected Bedros Kapamaciyan as mayor. He was a rich Armenian, and never left an Armenian without work or a trade. However, because he did not totally support the Armenians (for example, he fined an Armenian shopkeeper), the Dashnak leader in Van, Aram Pasha, ordered the mayor's own son to murder the mayor... and the son complied, pumping five bullets into Mayor Kapamaciyan. More may be read here. From a book by Ergünöz Akcora, unofficially translated as "The Testimony of Survivors from Van and Surroundings on the Armenian Uprising," 1990, p. 151 ADDENDUM: More on Mayor Kapamaciyan
248-“…May God curse that Aram Pasha. He was the one who deceived us, saying that he would establish a state for us. Instead, he set fire to us. We have never forgotten the humanity we saw from the Turks. While those had won the world for us, while they treated us with benevolence, we kicked them. It was because of this that God visited calamity on us. We were scattered everywhere…"
Source: Mehmet Resit Efendi, after embracing an Armenian tradesman originally from Van, later located in Mosul (Iraq), and longing for his homeland; one of the thousands of relocated Armenians who reached their destinations, unmolested.(Boghos Nubar claimed 360,000 such Armenians reached their destinations.) From the Akcora book above, p. 153.
Part 78 of 999
249-“...I would like to stress especially that, in the raids made by the Kurds and the Turks, as a reaction to the rebellion movements in the several regions of Anatolia at those times, the amount of material losses were extremely small compared to the wealth pillaged by the Hinchaks in the robberies in Istanbul. The percentage would not total even to one percent. The committeemen robbed the Istanbul Armenians... pitilessly. They put several wealthy persons into a penniless situation…"
Source: Pantikyan, Armenian famed for playing a great role in the armistice, as told to M. Sifir;
Banoglu, Niyazi Ahmet, Gündüz Printing House, Ankara, 1976, p. 24-25 (Holdwater: However, some parties seriously involved in massacring made a point of making off with cash and material goods.)
250-“… During this brief three year period (1904-1906), there were two Armenian victims assassinated by Armenian terrorists for every one non-Armenian. This hitherto almost totally neglected fact deserves our attention, for it was not a phenomenon limited to 1904-1906, but rather one which still exists today. Its purpose, then as now, was nothing more or less than intimidation. The conscious attempt to frighten the overwhelming majority of peaceful Armenians into silence as regards the activities of the terrorists."
Source: Heath W. Lowry, Professor,“Nineteenth and Twentieth Century Armenian Terrorism: Threads of Continuity,” 1984; referring to a 1983 source by Dr. Gerard Libaridian
Ergun Kirlikovali Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
jda
Diamond Bar, CA#516
Tuesday Jan 27
dear jenghiz jr,
So the best you can do is nip jokes and anagram games?
Pathetic and pitiable
Ergun Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#517
Wednesday Jan 28
Part 79 of 999
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations.
They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification. Also, they will take any opportunity to derail this debate by turning it into a shouting match. So, I suggest we keep our cool and go back to our educational process of discussing facts.
Let’s leave Armenian propaganda to the AFATH (Armenian falsifiers and Turk haters) community. Let’s continue with the gradual dismantling of the 90+ years of bogus genocide, shall we?
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to remind the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
251- "…It is absolutely clear that the Armenians of Van started the insurrection behind the Ottoman lines already in February 1915, waiting for the Russian offensive. Before the Russians had reached Van they had already extinguished the whole Muslim (Turks and Kurds alike) population of Van with all the neighboring villages. Meanwhile there is also archeological evidence of these mass-murders, as countless mass-graves with Muslim victims have been spotted, excavated and identified...Thanks God, the triumph of the Armenians was documented by themselves. Photographs and reports were sent to the Entente-magazines..."
Source: Erich Feigl, professor, author, "The Myth of Terror."
252-“…Armenian-origin intellectuals and journalists have become viciously intolerant of non-Armenian-origin colleagues who do not accept their biases and who venture to question Armenian statistics or try to examine ... historical records according to recognized standards of objectivity and respect for methodology..."
Source: Paul Henze,“The Roots of Armenian Violence: How Far Back Do They Extend?,"1984
253-“…Sly, pliant, persevering, seldom if ever conscientious, they (Armenians) monopolise all transactions in business, and speedily become the bankers and tyrants of the place. Still it must not be concluded from this that there are no honourable exceptions among those whose intelligence and energy have conferred signal benefits upon the country..."
Source: Baron Max von Thielmann, Journey in the Caucasus, Persia and Turkey in Asia, London (John Murray), 1875, Vol. I, p. 41
Part 80 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations.
They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification. Also, they will take any opportunity to derail this debate by turning it into a shouting match. So, I suggest we keep our cool and go back to our educational process of discussing facts.
Let’s leave Armenian propaganda to the AFATH (Armenian falsifiers and Turk haters) community. Let’s continue with the gradual dismantling of the 90+ years of bogus genocide, shall we?
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to remind the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
254-“…In an Asian city, during the 1896 massacres, the French Consul, who had sheltered as many Armenians as possible at the Consulate under the French standard, came up to his terrace to see what was going on in the neighborhood, when two bullets came from behind him, whistling in his ears; turning, he realized in a flash, an Armenian who had been aiming at him from a window of a neighboring house. Apprehended and questioned, the sly aggressor answered: "I did that so that the Turks would be accused, and with the hope that after the murder of the Consul, the French would rise against them."
Source: Pierre Loti, Les Massacres d'Arménie (The Massacres of Armenia)(This is exactly what that Armenian falsifier, jda, does with his deceitful posts here.)
255-“… Poor devils, no one seems to want them anywhere, and yet despite all they have gone through, I did not see a thin one amongst a good many thousand I saw, and most looked cheery too. The massacres seem to have been a good deal exaggerated ... I don't know what there is about the Armenians, but no one, not even the missionaries, seems to have a good word to say about them...."
Source: Lt. General Sir W. N. Congreve to General Sir Henry Wilson, Cairo, 19 October 1919; regarding Armenians flooding Cilicia, under the aegis of the French. Source, under "A British Observer" (Who likes liars?)
Part 81 of 999
256-“…The hatred, malice and all uncharitableness, characterizing the different native (Christian) sects in their inter-relations could not be easily exaggerated ; and I am sorry to say that in the opinion of men who have had ample opportunity of judging from personal observation, there is only too much foundation for the bad opinion which each of those sects entertain of the other.'When a Mohammedan gives me his word,' said a gentleman who had a long experience of the country,'whether he be a Turk or a Kurd, I can always rely on it. I have never been what is called ' done ' by a Mussulman, although I have had transactions of all kinds with Moslems for years ; but when a native Christian tells me anything, I have cause instinctively to ask myself where the deception lies — in what direction I am going to be tricked. There are exceptions, of course; but if anyone has many dealings with Mussulmans and native Christians in these parts, he will soon learn that the one may be depended on, and the other will almost to a certainty deceive and cheat you if you give him a chance'."
Source: Gratan Geary, "Through Asiatic Turkey" (London, M.S. and R. Sampson, 1878)
Part 82 of 999
257-“…“As an Armenian, I never condone terrorism, but there must be a reason behind this. Maybe the terrorism will work. It worked for the Jews. They have Israel…“
Source; Kevork Donabedian, the editor of The Armenian Weekly, an ethnic newspaper published in the United States, as quoted in the November 18, 1980 issue of The Christian Science Monitor.(Yet another Armenian dishonorably playing both sides of the fence.)
258-“… I condemn any and all terrorism, and especially Armenian terrorism. But at the same time I have to say that as long as this cause remains unjustly denied, the KGB and the Communist Party, who are obviously perpetrating this terrorism, are going to have fuel for their fire..."
Source: Charles Pashayan, Congressman, on the floor of the U.S. House of Representatives, Congressional Record, Dec. 12, 1985, p. H11936. Earlier in his statement, Pashayan stressed how "justice has still been denied," faulting Turkey for not behaving "in the same way that West Germany has acknowledged what its predecessor government did under the Nazi regime." The "passions of the people" were thus understandable, he argued, in effect justifying the Armenian terrorism that he made sure to officially "condemn." (Armenian Allegations: Myth and Reality, ATAA, 1987.) Armenians, again, blame other parties (KGB, Communist Party, etc.) for their own Armenian terrorism… Go figure these Armenians!
Ergun Kirlikovali Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
jda
San Francisco, CA#521
Wednesday Jan 28
Ergun:
You've got way bigger problems than Armenians: Two assassination teams of Ergenekon, a clandestine terrorist organization nested within state organs and charged with plotting to overthrow the government, were captured yesterday by the police in 14 provinces throughout the country in raids organized as part of an investigation into the group.
Twenty police officers and military officers were detained in yesterday's operations on charges of being members of two assassination teams led by Ä°brahim Å~^ahin, a former senior police official who was the deputy head of the National Police Department's Special Operations Unit.Å~^ahin was arrested on Jan. 7.
A wave of detentions on Jan. 7 in the Ergenekon investigation revealed that the group was planning to assassinate Alevi and Armenian community leaders, the prime minister and members of the Supreme Court of Appeals -- acts that would have dragged Turkey into chaos had they been carried out.
The many detentions of special operations officers were tied to statements from Å~^ahin, reportedly made during his police testimony following his detention. In his initial testimony,Å~^ahin said 7th Army Commander Gen. Bekir Kalyoncu, currently on active duty, had assigned him to set up a team of 300 officers to be employed in a new anti-terrorism department. Kalyoncu also promised that Å~^ahin would be the undersecretary of the new unit.Å~^ahin claimed he was working to set up this new structure. He said a document found in his home during the police search was a list of officers to be chosen for the special force. The document was titled "S-1" and listed military officers and police Special Operations Unit members under the age of 30. Analysts believe most of those detained yesterday were individuals from the list.
Members of the Foundation for Social Rights and Values asked Ergenekon prosecutors to open some wells in the Southeast alleged to contain the acid-doused bodies of missing people.
Yesterday's raids were launched on a warrant issued by Ergenekon prosecutor Zekeriya Oz on property of individuals affiliated with a workers' union and the ART TV network. Authorities began their search of a house in Ankara's Beysukent district belonging to Mustafa Ozbek, the head of metals sector workers' union Turk Metal, at 7:30 a.m. Ozbek, Turk Metal Deputy Chairman Ferruh Kavlak and Turk Metal Secretary-General Muharrem Aslıyuce. Union officials Suleyman Erdinc and Pevrul Kavrat were also detained.
A group of Turk Metal Union members protested the detention of Ozbek in front of the Ankara Police Department yesterday. Union members, holding signs, chanted: "We are wherever Ozbek is. Don't be silent, you will be next. We are Turkish, we are strong, we are Ataturkists." Journalist Unal Ä°nanc and Turkmeneli Association President SavaÅ~_ Avcı were detained in Ä°stanbul. Researcher Erhan Göksel, owner of the Verso Research Company, was also detained yesterday.
Ergun Kirlikovali
Trabuco Canyon, CA#522
Wednesday Jan 28
Part 83 of 999
259-"…In choosing sides, we go against the Turks. Images of murderous sultans wielding thick-ended sabers remain..."
Source: Colman McCarthy, Armenian Terror Tactics, July 31, 1983, The Washington Post
260-“…The Turk has been and is the most misrepresented person in the world. I know some of the falsehoods which have been and are being circulated in America. They amaze me..."
Source: Rear Admiral Colby M. Chester, "Turkey Reinterpreted," The New York Times Current History, 1922
261-“…As a matter of cold, indisputable fact, there is more religious freedom in Turkey than in any other country in the world, more than has ever been recorded in history. "
Source: Arthur Tremaine Chester, "Angora and the Turks," The New York Times Current History, Feb.1923
Part 84 of 999
262-"…Condemnation without hearing both sides is unjust and un-American…"
Source: Arthur Tremaine Chester, above Feb.1923 article
263-“…I could see that [the Armenians'] well-known disloyalty to the Ottoman Government and the fact that the territory which they inhabited was within the zone of military operations constituted grounds more or less justifiable for compelling them to depart their homes…"
Source: Robert Lansing, United States Secretary of State, to President Woodrow Wilson, November 21, 1916, in Papers Relating to the Foreign Relations of the United States: The Lansing Papers, 1914-1920, vol. 1 (Washington, D.C.: GPO, 1939), p. 42
264- The Ottoman state ”has used its right to defend its existence against Armenian organisations that had fomented and incited disorders and rebellions at the instigation of the Russians by relying on Russian arms..."
Source: Leo (Arakel Babakhanian), Armenian historian, Turkahai Heghopokhutian Kaghaparapanoutiunu (The Ideology of the Turkish Armenian Revolution), published in Armenian,1934, Paris.
( PS: These three were especially chosen for that rat in ararat... not that he cares to read or understand)
Ergun Kirlikovali Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
jda
San Francisco, CA#524
Thursday Jan 29
Professor Niall Ferguson of Harvard in an interview with Harry Kreisler, published in 2007:
"[RAILROADS] play, of course, another role altogether, an even more horrific role, in the interwar period when they become the means of transporting ethnic minorities to their deaths. We all think of cattle trucks in connection with the Holocaust but actually the Germans were latecomers to this technique because the Turks had used railroads to transport Armenians to the deserts of Syria, and Stalin had used cattle trucks to transport ethnic minorities all over the Soviet Union if he didn't trust them. So, railways are very much a key part of this story, and they are transformed from instruments of warfare or modes of transport for commerce into revolutionary conduits and ultimately into engines of genocide."
ERGIE, SEE HOW EASY IT IS TO DEAL WITH RELEVANT FACTS AND IDEAS INSTEAD OF NAME CALLING?
Ergun Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#525
Thursday Jan 29
Niall Ferguson takes Armenian claims at face value. Proof? He talks about railroads (plural). Whereas anyone who knowsthe tiniest bit of Ottoman history knows that there was only one railroda that went from Istanbul through Konya and Adana to Aleppo. No railroads... just one railroad. It is also intersting to note that professor does not accuse the Soviets with genocide, although they moved more than 100 minorities (some whose names are not known to public) from mid 1930s to 1944 and beyond. case in pojnt: Who ever heard of Koreans being moved by the Soviets in 1937? It is biased professor like Niall Ferguson that promptend my essay titled : "How do you deal with a lynch mob?" (see www.turkla.com )
Another intersting point is that the Tereset order with its more than thousand sub-orders clearly laid out the rules of temporary resettlement: those who have acces to trains and can pay for the ticket, will use the trains; others will be assigned ox-carts; there will be military escorts when and where can be afforded (it is wartime, remember?); on and on... Other sub-orders regulate how the property shall be entered into official safe-keeping; how the perishables will be sold at auctions and the receipts shall be deposited into trust accounts; etc. etc.
But hey, who reads thse facts? Not Niall Ferguson types...
Who needs them anyway? Not the jda types...
It is easier to scream, shout, yell, curse, insult, and lynch...
If you don;t believe me, ask the rat in ararat. Or just read his posts above...
Ergun Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#526
Thursday Jan 29
Part 85 of 999
265-“…History teaches us that man learns nothing from history…"
Source: Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, in reply to genocide zealots' argument that genocides must be recognized in order not to be repeated. Surely the Armenians have not learned from their history of "ethnic cleansing"; after slaughtering (some with Russian help) 524,000 Ottoman Muslims and Jews during WWI and after, and conducting similar campaigns against their Azeri neighbors, modern Armenia felt no compunction in attacking and expulsing large numbers of defenseless Azeri civilians in 1992.(This quote applies to Niall Ferguson types, too.)
266-“…The exact contrary of what is generally believed is often the truth…"
Source: Jean de la Bruyère (This quote is almost made to order for the Armenians claims bogus genocide.)
267-“…The few who have attempted to alter the traditional view have been derided as 'revisionists' as if revision were an academic sin and contextual historical accuracy irrelevant. In fact, revising one-sided history and changing deficient traditional wisdom is the business of the historian, and in few areas of history is revision so needed as in the history of the Ottoman peoples. The history that results from the process of revision is an unsettling one, for it tells the story of Turks as victims, and this is not the role in which they are usually cast. It does not present the traditional image of the Turk as victimizer, never victim, that has continued in the histories of America and Europe long after it should have been discarded with other artifacts of nineteenth-century racism..."
Source: Booknews, Inc. Review, "Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922," June 1, 1996 (This quote also applies to Niall Ferguson types.)
Ergun Kirlikovali Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
jda
San Francisco, CA#527
Thursday Jan 29
Ergun,
You need to read closely. Like you are reading directions on a MDS. Ferguson was talking about railroads in multiple locations, not just in Anatolia. You can't escape Ferguson's overall analysis about Genocide in times of war based on your misapprehension of singular v plural. "Railroads" is a common synechdoche meaning a single line, with spurs, bump yards et al.
Here;s a little something to brighten your day:
FYI
Turkish PM walks off stage after dispute over Gaza
By JOHN DANISZEWSKI and MATT MOORE –
DAVOS, Switzerland (AP)— Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan stalked off the stage at the World Economic Forum red-faced after verbally sparring with Israeli President Shimon Peres over the fighting in Gaza. The episode came Thursday after a lengthy debate about the recent fighting in Gaza that claimed about 1,300 Palestinian lives.
Erdogan was flustered after he tried to speak as the scheduled session was ending at the forum in Davos, Switzerland, asking the moderator, Washington Post columnist David Ignatius, to let him speak once more.
"Only a minute," Ignatius replied.
Erdogan said that "I remember two former prime ministers in your country who said they felt very happy when they were able to enter Palestine on tanks," he said in Turkish.
"I find it very sad that people applaud what you said. There have been many people killed. And I think that it is very wrong and it is not humanitarian," he said.
Ignatius said "We can't start the debate again. We just don't have time."
Erdogan said "Please let me finish." Ignatius responded "We really do need to get people to dinner."
The Turkish premier then said, "Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I don't think I will come back to Davos after this."
The confrontation saw Peres and Ergodan raise their voice shouting — highly unusual at the elite gathering of corporate and world leaders, which is usually marked by learned consensus seeking and polite dialogue. It showed how emotions remain frayed over Israel's offensive against Hamas that ended less than two weeks ago.
The packed audience at the Ergodan and Peres session, which included President Obama's close adviser Valerie Jarrett, appeared stunned.
Afterward, forum founder Klaus Schwab huddled with Erdogan in a corner of the Congress Center. A press conference with both men was scheduled for 8:30 p.m.(1930 GMT)
"I have know Shimon Peres for many years and I also know Erdogan. I have never seen Shimon Peres so passionate as he was today. I think he felt Israel was being attacked by so many in the international community. He felt isolated," said former Norwegian Prime Minister Kjell Magne Bondevik said.
"I was very sad that Ergodan left. This was an expression of how difficult this situation is."
Amr Moussa, the former Egyptian foreign minister who now leads the Arab League, said Ergodan's action was understandable. "Mr. Ergodan said what he wanted to say and then he left. That's all. He was right." Of Israel, he said, "They don't listen."
Ergodan brushed past reporters outside the hall. His wife appeared upset. "All Peres said was a lie. It was unacceptable," she said, eyes glistening.
Earlier in the day, the leader of Israel's conservative Likud Party lambasted Iran for allegedly seeking nuclear weapons and supporting Hamas. Iran denies it has plans to obtain nuclear weapons, but Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu insisted that it is in a race to make nuclear weapons, and that poses a greater danger to the world than the current economic crisis.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/A...
Ergun Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#529
Thursday Jan 29
Part 86 of 999
268-“…To punish all persons guilty of Armenian atrocities would necessitate wholesale execution of Turks and I therefore suggest punishment should rather take the form of, nationally, dismemberment of the late Turkish Empire and, individually, in trial of high officials such as those on my lists whose fate will serve as an example…"
Source: British Deputy High Commissioner Webb, in an April 3, 1919 cipher telegram to the Peace Conference in Paris. How convenient. The Allies (that is, self-seeking imperialist powers) were planning the dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire well before World War I, and during wartime they were colluding through secret treaties (remember Sykes-Picot?); making it seem like there was a genocide would certainly justify their land-grab scheme. Fortunately, the British had the honor to not find the high officials guilty at the Malta Tribunal (for lack of evidence) and their land grab scheme (for Asia Minor, anyway) was foiled by the Turks themselves.
269-“…It seems almost a pity to upset the good old myth of Turkish viciousness and terribleness, but in the interest of accuracy I find myself constrained to do so, although it makes me feel a bit like one who is compelled to tell a child that Jack the Giant Killer really found no monstrous men to slay…”
and then this one:
“… In due course of time the deportees, entirely un-massacred and fat and prosperous, returned (if they wished so to do), and an English prisoner of war who was in one of the vacated towns after it had been repopulated told me that he found it filled with these astonishing living ghosts..."
Source: Colby M. Chester, Rear Admiral, United States Navy; "Turkey Reinterpreted," The New York Times Current History, March 1922
(If it were really a genocide, could the Armenians return? They would be killed in the first place. And if still alive, there would have to be genocidal tendencies towards them. Could Jews return to Berlin or Munich under Nazi rule? The more one understands the deception of Armenian genocide, the more ridiculous it sounds.)
Part 87 of 999
270-“…The Genocide has been the single most fundamental issue defining the Armenians' identity in this century. Its importance for Armenia and the Diaspora cannot be understated…"
Source: Vartan Oskanian, Minister for Foreign Affairs, Republic of Armenia, May 1999; in a testimonial for the The Zoryan Institute for Contemporary Armenian Research and Documentation, est. 1982.(We know! We know! It's your life's blood...)
271-“…We know the whole history of these massacres to some extent. It is only towards the Armenians that the Turk is said to be so intolerant; there are other parts of the world where he [the Turk] deals with Christian people, and where he deals with the Jewish community... Moreover, the Armenians themselves lived under the Turkish rule for centuries and never complained. Therefore, we earnestly appeal to you, to the whole Christian world of Europe and America, that if the Turk is to be punished on the assumption that he is a tyrant, and that his rule is a blasting tyranny then the evidence should be of such character that it should be absolutely above suspicion."
Source: Muhammad Ali, leading a delegation of Indian Muslims at the Peace Conference, March 1919, to Lloyd George. While the British were determined to wipe the defeated Ottoman Empire off the surface of the earth, such initiatives slowly compelled the British to uphold the principles of law and justice, when they embarked on the Malta Tribunal, which proved beyond a shadow of a doubt there was no Armenian "Genocide."
272-“…The Queen’s Government, taking into account the best interest of Holland, deems it unsuitable and unnecessary to participate in such an inquiry…"
Source: Dutch embassy, March 17, 1919, in response to a request for a neutral sizing up of the Armenian "Genocide."
Four countries were asked, and none wished to take the opportunity to prove once and for all the Turks were guilty as charged. A May 6, 1919 French-written document, in the Archives of the Foreign Ministry, stated: "Two lawyers each from the countries of Denmark (April 19, 1919), Spain (March 17, 1919), Sweden (April 19, 1919) and Holland (March 17, 1919) were requested to participate in the international committee to be formed to investigate if any injustices were made during the relocation. The delegates of the investigation committee were to visit provinces in Anatolia to make inquiries to establish any injustice that took place and to solve the matter by lawful means. However, this venture was not realized, as the concerned nations refused to send delegates (at the requested time)."
Part 88 of 999
273-“…Few Americans who mourn, and justly, the miseries of the Armenians, are aware that till the rise of nationalistic ambitions, beginning with the 'seventies, the Armenians were the favored portion of the population of Turkey, or that in the Great War, they traitorously turned Turkish cities over to the Russian invader; that they boasted of having raised an army of one hundred and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at least a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population… It is at least time that Americans ceased to be deceived by propaganda…”
Source: John Dewey, American professor, The Turkish Tragedy, The New Republic, November 12, 1928
274-“…I once asked a professor of mine who taught a class on the laws of war and war crimes at Columbia Law School to deprogram me from all the propaganda I had received growing up Turkish. I asked him to please find me evidence of the genocide by neutral scholars so I could know the truth…After investigating the issue, he came back and said that he could not find one non-Armenian scholar who believed this was a genocide, but since 'it looked like a duck, it walked like a duck and it talked like a duck, it must be a duck.' If that's not the product of excellent propaganda, I don't know what is..."
Source: Cenk Uygur, a Turkish-American writing to salon.com in 1999, now behind a radio talk show called 'The Young Turks'; his professor must have been wise enough to distinguish genuine non-Armenian scholars (i.e, those who look at all the facts) from the many false scholars who mindlessly or purposely accept Armenian claims.(Thanks, Cenk, I am proud of you. You may or may not know this but your father is a good friend of mine from the early 1980s.)
Part 89 of 999
275-(The Turks whose honor and the dignity you have been pummeling and mauling all these many years, were) "...far better men and far abler rulers than the wretched tyrants whom they suppressed....the Turks were in advance, not of their Christian subjects alone, but of the greater part of Christian Europe..."
Source: Edson L. Clark (1827-1913), British anthropologist and historian, from his "Nations of the World" Series,1900, N.Y.(pp. 84,87.)(Are you reading these lines, JDA,or shall I say, the rat in Ararat?)
276-“…In 1906 the Russian army had instructed the Russian consul in Van to visit the Assyrian Patriarch and ask whether Russia could count on the Assyrians for help in the event of a war with the Ottoman Empire. Mar Shamun Beniamin promised that if Russia took Van and armed the Assyrians, he would produce a force of forty thousand men and occupy the land between Mosul and Bitlis..."
Source; Michael A. Reynolds, "The Ottoman-Russian Struggle for Eastern Anatolia and the Caucasus," Nov. 2003 dissertation, p. 141.
Source: K.P. Matveev and I.I. Mar-Iukhanna, Assiriiskii vopros vo vremia i posle pervoi mirovoi voiny (1914-1933)(Moscow: Nauka, 1968), 42. The Assyrians numbered between 150,000-200,000, about 70,000 in Iran. Those who believe in an "Assyrian Genocide" can see the familiar roots of treachery.
277-“…In terms of per capita, US aid to Armenia is second only to Israel…"
Source: Keith Simmons, the US Agency for International Development's director in Armenia, in a paraphrased statement to Armenian community leaders in Boston, January 2003.(Source: "The State Department's Traveling Propaganda Show," David B. Boyajian, Armenian Weekly.) U.S. taxpayers have doled out over $2 billion to Armenia since her independence, largely due to the influence of Armenian-Americans, as the U.S. Ambassador to Armenia, John Ordway, stated in the same event.(Backstabbing ingrates, Armenians,do not deserve our sympathy, much less our tax dollars! All they seem to do is beg, cry, scream, yell, demand, protest, threaten, terrorize, intimidate, swindle, and backstab some more… Would you, for example, buy a used car from this lying rat in ararat who never reveals his true identity?)
Ergun Kirlikovali Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
David Colvey
AOL#533
Thursday Jan 29
This crap has been going on since i was in kindergarten. why can't you people grow up?
jda
San Francisco, CA#534
Thursday Jan 29
my goal was to give him carpal tunnell
Ergun Kirlikovali
Trabuco Canyon, CA#535
Thursday Jan 29
my goal is to expose the rat in ararat.
jda
Los Angeles, CA#536
Thursday Jan 29
Well Ergun,
Looks like your PM's outburst kinda fried poor old Shimon Peres' tolerance for his nation's only Moslem ally. Irony is that the vast majority of Armenians, especially those in the ME,agree with Erdogan.
I'm counting the hours till some nut - maybe you- asserts that because the moderator David Ignatius is Armenian, there was a conspiracy between the Jews and the Armenians to drive the PM khent. Of course, you're not really an AK kinds guy, so you probably think it's a wash.
OK the clock starts now.
jda
Norco, CA#537
Thursday Jan 29
Ergun Kirlikovali wrote:
my goal is to expose the rat in ararat.
Clever...for you, that is.
mad max
San Mateo, CA#538
Thursday Jan 29
Give it up Turks. You invaded and murdered millions as you now occupy their blood-soaked lands. Any educated person knows what you did.Read the accounts by American and European Diplomatic eyewitnesses and accept the facts instead of making yourselves sound like morons and unrepentent liars. Everyone who has ever lived under your rule-hates you. You are an occupier and genocider-deal with it, face your ugly history-and grow-up...
Ergun Kirlikovali
Trabuco Canyon, CA#539
Thursday Jan 29
Jda, you're not folloing anyone with your million fake names (colvety, madmax, pinocchian, etc.)
Once a rat, always a rat, even in ararat!
Marty Ce
Los Angeles, CA#540
Thursday Jan 29
Cant we just get along?
jda
Simi Valley, CA#541
Friday Jan 30
Ergo,
I'm just me.
Why does every ethnic group the Ottomans ruled hate the memory?
It can't all be Armenian or European propaganda.
The word in Georgian for trouble is Turk.
If rule was so good, why were the memories so bad?
Even Muslim ethnicities agree: Arabs, Albanians, Kurds and Bosnians.
And the central Asians don't view you as being anything more than Turkish speaking Middle easterners
Ergun Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#542
Friday Jan 30
Armenian allegations of genocide cannot be substantiated with untainted historical evidence and there is no court verdict, a la Nuremberg, saying that it was a genocide. Blaming someone with a crime not committed and without a court verdict supporting such blame, is called "lynching". Are you part of a lynch mob, jda?
Or shall I say rat in ararat?
Your bias, bigotry, deceptions, and lies do not impress me; just reinforce my opinion of one nasty pinocchian...
jda
San Francisco, CA#543
Friday Jan 30
Mr. Kirlikovali,
The idea that there needs to be a court judgment to sustain a valid belief that genocide has occurred is specious. It is also contradicted by your own writings. All that is necessary is evidence and logic. But as you know there are actually several such judgments, one from a German Court, and multiple from Turkey.
You otherwise claim that Greeks committed genocide - your word, not mine - against Turks both in Anatolia and in the Balkans. You have claimed that Serbians and Montenegrins did as well. There were no court judgments, but this did not prevent you from making your accusation. According to your logic, your evidence on these claims, whatever that may be, is insufficient because there is no court judgment. You contradict yourself. This is not news.
I also see that your new best friend, Mr. Fein, has written that the Sinhalese have committed genocide against his clients the Tamils. Again, your towering legal advocate had no problem using the G word, despite the absebnce of a judgment.
Fortunately, you do not know what a lynch mob actually is. To lynch means to take someone from the custody of a peace officer. In America, there was a sad history of lynchings, often against minorities by hate crazed racist mobs who killed the victims. The practice has ended. It occurred actively through the 1930s.
Asserting that Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks suffered Genocide is nothing like a lynching of you or your fat and comfy friends. But spewing childish, racism is a tactic any member of a lynch mob would feel at home with. And it is your sole stock in trade.
I have collected 200 examples of overtly racist statements solely by you against Mexicans and Armenians. They mirror what Goebbels and Rosenbverg said about Jews. I have never, and will never make general or racial statements about Turks.
You see, most Armenians have in their Genocide survival stories at least one Turk, Kurd, Bedou or othe Arab who warned, sheltered or saved them from death at the hands of Turkish Gendarmes and irregular forces. Although there are surely some Armenians who are racist in the same way you are, the vast majority are not. Not that your TA sites confirm it, but I hope the vast majority of Turks are not.
What you have to answer for in this life and the next is your open, continual hatred and racism. You are a very old man, in whom the bully is unbecoming and risible.
Erdogan will leave you and your kind behind.
Ergun Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#544
Friday Jan 30
You say "The idea that there needs to be a court judgment to sustain a valid belief that genocide has occurred is specious..."
Do you realize this is what lynch mobs say?
Do you realize you just violated the UN 1948 Convention on genocide, article 6?
If belief is all it took, then there is no need for courts, right?
Then, whose belief is it going to be? Yours or mine?
What a neanderthal you really are... Add this one to you list.
Oh, and don't forget:
rat in ararat
Your bias, bigotry, deceptions, and lies do not impress me; they just reinforce my opinion of one nasty pinocchian...
(add that one to your list, too!)
jda
San Francisco, CA#545
Friday
One notes that you do not respond on the merits.
You do seem to have identified the anagramatic complexity of Ararat.
Can you respond on the merits?
Ergun Kirlikovali
Trabuco Canyon, CA#546
Friday
A citizen alert to FBI:
If something happens to me, I am in any way hurt, maimed, or killed, they should check this jda fellow out. He writes under many fake names (up to as many as 250 or more) in various websites. Among them are this site, OC Weekly, Forbes, LA Times, TurkishForum, Turkla, and a few others. He thinks he can outsmart the system but Simply by comparing the IP numbers in those fake names, they can easily track him down.
Here are some of the fake names he uses: j, jd, jda, ararat, manukyan, pierre, hasan, burcu, jack, bob, etc. etc.(I can provide more of the fake names this man fabricates to suit his purposes. Sometimes he even creats a lively debate among these fake names proving him right - how sick is that?)
He is a cyber stalker who is bent on demonizing me anyway he can, wherever and whenever I write. I don't mind a civilized debate, but threats, insults, slander, and intimidation take on a different color, given the history of Armenian terrorism in Southern california.
JDA consistently tries to make me into a target by stating where I live, what I do for a living, who I asociate with, and more... These clearly have nothing to do with the debate we are conducting. JDA tries to paint me as a ultranationalist, foreign agent, racist, and more, to fan the flames of hatred for all things Turkish among some Armenians. This will be my last message about JDA. I tried to get him to reveal his identity but to no avail. He thinks he can demonize Turkey and Turks better if he stays anonymous. As long as his threats are not turned into physical attacks, I can deal with his nonsense. Armenian terrorism, I cannot deal with. That's where FBI should step in.
After this message, I shall return to our educational process where I continue quote verifiable, reliable statements by those who can shed light on the Turkish-Armenian conflict, which the Armenian falsifers insist on misrepresenting as Armenian genocide.
UN 1948 Convention on genocide, article 6, clearly states that only competetn tribunals (proper courts) can give a verdict of genocide, not activists, columnists, politicians, diplomats, soldiers, or even historinas... only competent tribunals. Such a triubunal was never convened and a genocide verdict does not exist.
Anyone insisting on the genocide conviction, therefore, is knowingly or unknowingly, engaging in lynching of sorts: conviction without due process or a court verdict.
Part 89 of 999
278- "…History teaches us that man learns nothing from history..."
Source: Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, in reply to genocide zealots' argument that genocides must be recognized in order not to be repeated. Surely the Armenians have not learned from their history of "ethnic cleansing"; after slaughtering (some with Russian help) 524,000 Ottoman Muslims and Jews during WWI and after, and conducting similar campaigns against their Azeri neighbors, modern Armenia felt no compunction in attacking and expulsing large numbers of defenseless Azeri civilians in 1992.
279-“…The exact contrary of what is generally believed is often the truth…"
Source: Jean de la Bruyère
280-“… The few who have attempted to alter the traditional view have been derided as 'revisionists' as if revision were an academic sin and contextual historical accuracy irrelevant. In fact, revising one-sided history and changing deficient traditional wisdom is the business of the historian, and in few areas of history is revision so needed as in the history of the Ottoman peoples. The history that results from the process of revision is an unsettling one, for it tells the story of Turks as victims, and this is not the role in which they are usually cast. It does not present the traditional image of the Turk as victimizer, never victim, that has continued in the histories of America and Europe long after it should have been discarded with other artifacts of nineteenth-century racism."
Source: Booknews, Inc. Review, "Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922," June 1, 1996
Part 90 of 999
281-“…To punish all persons guilty of Armenian atrocities would necessitate wholesale execution of Turks and I therefore suggest punishment should rather take the form of, nationally, dismemberment of the late Turkish Empire and, individually, in trial of high officials such as those on my lists whose fate will serve as an example…"
Source: British Deputy High Commissioner Webb, in an April 3, 1919 cipher telegram to the Peace Conference in Paris.( How convenient. The Allies-that is, self-seeking imperialist powers-were planning the dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire well before World War I, and during wartime they were colluding through secret treaties; making it seem like there was a genocide would certainly justify their land-grab scheme. Fortunately, the British had the honor to not find the high officials guilty at the Malta Tribunal (for lack of evidence) and their land grab scheme (for Asia Minor, anyway) was foiled by the Turks themselves.
282-“…It seems almost a pity to upset the good old myth of Turkish viciousness and terribleness, but in the interest of accuracy I find myself constrained to do so, although it makes me feel a bit like one who is compelled to tell a child that Jack the Giant Killer really found no monstrous men to slay… In due course of time the deportees, entirely unmassacred and fat and prosperous, returned (if they wished so to do), and an English prisoner of war who was in one of the vacated towns after it had been repopulated told me that he found it filled with these astonishing living ghosts…"
Source: Colby M. Chester, Rear Admiral, United States Navy; "Turkey Reinterpreted," The New York Times Current History, March 1922
Part 90 of 999
283-“…We, the non-Armenian population of Glendale, are not obligated to recognize the genocide...''
Source: Californian resident, quoted in "Tolerance is a two-way street," Albert Hoffmanan,'Glendale in the Times Community (Newspapers, 3 July 2002. Californians are beginning to have enough of the huge chunk of obsessive Armenian-Americans among them pushing their fake genocide down everyone's throats. The truth of the words spoken applies to everywhere else in the world, and not just Glendale. Same sentiments were voice by Americans right here in this column many times before.)
284-“…(The) United Nations has not approved or endorsed a report labeling the Armenian experience as Genocide."
Source: Farhan Haq, U.N. spokesman, October 5th, 2000. On June 4-7, 2005, at a Florida Atlantic University genocide conference, Juan Mendez, Special Advisor on the Prevention of Genocide to the Secretary General of the United Nations, was criticized for calling the Armenians' genocide an "event."
This article tells us that the Argentinian "responded that since the UN has not officially recognized the genocide, he was not allowed to call it that." As reader Conan put it: "The UN is the organ that has established the Genocide Convention. If even such an institution doesn’t recognize the Armenian genocide, Turkey has the right to punish the so called Armenian genocide as libel. That is the right of every nation."
Ergun Kirlikovali Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
jda
Stockton, CA#550
mr kirlikovali,
You have nothing to fear from me, and I suspect nobody else reads these posts. Nor, as you breathlessly assert, have I given the world your contact information. By contrast, I recall reading how ftaa told it's 19000 members to greet taner akcam, resulting in predictable death threats and police protection. To paraphrase ataturk, no freedom of speech at home, no freedom of speech abroad for those the TA wishes to muzzle.
Particularly noxious is your adoption of victimhood. You cry incessantly that you are the victim of racism merely because scholars and others don't agree with you. You also try to invoke the sufferings of Greek Moslems 100 years ago as if it was yours. It isn't. The only thing from which you seek refuge is honesty and logic.
In America we do try once and again to think for ourselves. I know you're old, but give it a try.
And spare me another tour through your vast collection of acronyms and Oprah-esque emotional scenery.
Ergun Kirlikovali
Trabuco Canyon, CA#551
JDA,
Ridiculing with others' pain like you do all the time seems to come natural to you. Now you even dictate to me what can be my pain and what cannot. What I should call myself and what I cannnot. Thiskind of arrrogance, brutality, and emotional barbarism can only come from a person who lies under many fake names.
America is truly great that it entrusts one from who I would not even buy a used car with her most precious uniform. Unsuspecting, trusting Americans must know, though, that Armenians have betrayed another uniform in the past and never apologized to date for it. That shows that they feel no remorse which in turn means they can do it again.
Another crime against humanity that Armenians felt no remorse for is the Armenian terrorism aorind the globe, but perhaps more poignantly for Americans, the Armenian terrorism in our backyard, right here in Southern California. The rat in ararat has never written a single word denouncing Armenian hate crimes. Instead, he glorifies violence, threatens others, and shows me as a target to Armenian fanatics. Armenians treat Armenian terrorists as heros; they collect money for their legal defenses, as if it is a crime defendable with money. When Turkey forcefully denounced the first hate crime (Dink killing in 2006), Armenians owned up to more than 40 hate crimes (1973 to present.) Somehow, they still shamelessly claim the high road in morality; I guess, they mean Armenian morality.
I repeat my appeal to FBI, in the form of a citizen's alert, that if anything should happen to me, they should track this guy down who calles himself j, jd, jda, manukyan, pierre, hasan, burcu, john, jack, bob, ararat, etc. etc. By matching the ip numbers, they can track his geographical location. I tried to get him to reveal his identity, many times, but as you can see, he is like a teflon stalker who apparently has his senses of shame, pride, and decency surguically removed.
He paints me as a lunatic, ultra-nationalist, foreign government agent, lone, racist and shows me as a target to his Armenian terrorist contacts as a target by frequently telling them where I live, what I do, etc. which have nothing to do with our debate. He is trying to intimidate, threaten, and silence me. I can deal with his bogus genocide crap, but I cannot deal with the virulent Armenian terrorism by myslef.
I invite FBI to be alert to violent attacks that can be engineered by this Arnmenian terrorist.
Part 91 of 999
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations.
They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification. Also, they will take any opportunity to derail this debate by turning it into a shouting match. So, I suggest we keep our cool and go back to our educational process of discussing facts.
Let’s leave Armenian propaganda to the AFATH (Armenian falsifiers and Turk haters) community. Let’s continue with the gradual dismantling of the 90+ years of bogus genocide, shall we?
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to remind the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
285-“…The meaning of genocide is the planned destruction of a religious and ethnic group, as far as it is known to me, there is no evidence for that in the case of the Armenians. The deniers of Holocaust have a purpose: to prolong Nazism and to return to Nazi legislation. Nobody wants the 'Young Turks' back, and nobody wants to have back the Ottoman Law..."
Bernard Lewis, Professor, "There Was No Genocide," an interview by Dalia Karpel, Ha'aretz daily, Jerusalem, January 23, 1998
286- "...After hostilities had actually commenced, the Deputy to the Assembly for Erzerum, Garo Pasdermadjian, passed over with almost all the Armenian troops and officers of the Third Army to the Russians; to return with them soon after, burning hamlets and mercilessly putting to the knife all of the peaceful Mussulman villagers that fell into their hands..."
Source: Rafael de Nogales, Venezuelan adventurer, on Armenian atrocities victimizing Turks of Erzerum, "Four Years Beneath the Crescent" (translated from Spanish by Muna Lee from the original Spanish version: "Quatro Anos Bajo La Media Luna"), Charles Scribner's Sons, New York, London, 1926, page 45
Armenians amongst us today do not want the man on the street to know these bitter , hard facts. They say they believe in freedom of speechh but do all they can to silence disssent, like me.
Part 92 of 999
286-“… I long for a 'Sun Country.' There should be no nights in this country and the people should not know what the concept of darkness means. Is it possible to find 'The Sun Country' on earth? The existence of the Turks who do not interfere with the freedom of thought and conscience makes me believe that — at least tomorrow — such a country will exist, since there is a nation, which does not imprison or chain love for the truth… Why should a 'Sun Country' be a reality tomorrow, a country where only the truth, justice and freedom reigns?”
Source: Tommaso Campanella (1568-1659), Renaissance philosopher, writer and child prodigy, in a passage from his well-known 1602 work ‘Civitas Solis’(City of the Sun)(This is a historic response to those Armenian falsifiers who love to demonize all that is Turkish out of blind Armenian hatred.)
287-“…When those of Armenians resident in the aforementioned towns and villages who have to be moved are transferred to their places of settlement and are on the road, their comfort must be assured and their lives and property protected; after their arrival their food should be paid for out of Refugees' Appropriations until they are definitively settled in their new homes. Property and land should be distributed to them in accordance with their previous financial situation as well as current needs; and for those among them needing further help, the government should build houses, provide cultivators and artisans with seed, tools, and equipment..“
Source: Key Ottoman Decree, putting the Armenian "Deportations" into motion (Does any of this sound like genocide to any decent, honest, open-minded truth-seeker?)
Ergun Kirlikovali Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
jda
San Mateo, CA#554
Mr Kirlikovali,
Your facility for fantasy is outmatched only by your narcissism. Victim, super-nationalist, and resin salesman. A proud (if dubious) Turk who shouts his allegiance to the Fatherland and Ataturk daily from the safety of Orange County, where I guess life is a bit better than in that sacred Fatherland. Which by the way is...Salonica?
Truly, if I were Tashnakzagan, I would protect you from all harm and buy you a lifetime suite at the Ritz for as long as you blather on, because you are the lampoonable caricature of a Turkish denialist so easy to mock. Unable to explain a position, unwilling to read authors you praise, and unable to separate ideas from the people who advance them. Happy to invoke racial stereotypes that lost purchase in this country and Europe a century ago.
I understand now Halil Berktay's reference to the Turks who propagandize themselves. I have learned a lot about the cloistered world of TA racism.
Ergun Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#555
Part 93 of 999
288-“…The Ottoman government prosecuted more than one thousand soldiers and civilians for disobedience. Further, approximately 200,000 Ottoman Armenians who were relocated to Syria lived without menace through the remainder of the war..."
Source: Bruce Fein, Attorney and Adjunct Scholar of ATAA, "An Armenian and Muslim Tragedy? Yes! Genocide? No!"
289-“…Enver Pasha was later associated with the dream of reuniting all the Turkish-speaking peoples and domains of Asia, and certainly the idea was familiar to him in 1914 —intellectually it was in the air — but, as of then, it did not enter into his plans. A small man, much addicted to theatrical gestures and to large programs that began with the prefix "pan-," Enver was also supposed to harbor pan-lslamlc ambitions. His treatment of Arab fellow-Moslems shows that this, too, was a slogan that he did not translate into policy."
Source: David Fromkin, "A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East," Avon Books, New York, 1989. responding to the familiarly ridiculous pro-Armenian allegations of "Pan-Turanism" and/or "Pan-Islamism" (the paid Armenian agent Taner Akcam likes both), to establish the much needed motive for mass-murder.
290-“…The Bush administration acted toward Turkey like the stereotypical rogue from a 1950s B-Movie. First we told Turkey what we wanted. When she balked, we got a little rough. When even that didn’t do the trick, we pulled out our wallet, saying in essence,“Fine, how much do you want?” When even cash failed, we told her to get out of the car and walk home…"
Source: Josh Marshall, editor,
Talkingpointsmemo.com , March 26, 2003; in regards to Turkey's reluctance to whole-heartedly join in on the Iraqi War.
Part 94 of 999
291-“…It must be admitted that it is political interest which has caused us (the nations of the Balkans) to describe the Turks as cruel Asiatic tyrants, unameanable to European civilisation. An impartial history would show that the Turks are rather Europeans than Asiatics and that they are not cruel tyrants, but a nation that loves justice and freedom, and that possesses virtues and qualities deserving of recognition and respect."
Source: Chedo Myatovich, Serbian plenipontentiary minister to London and Istanbul, as reported in the Asiatic Quarterly of Oct. 1913.
292-“…Today's ethnic cleansing policies by the Serbian dictatorship against Croatians and Muslims of Yugoslavia, as well as the Soviet Republic of Armenia's against the Muslim population of neighboring Azerbaijan, are really no different in their aspirations than the genocide perpetrated by the Armenian Government 78 years ago against the Turkish and Kurdish Muslims and Sephardic Jews living in these lands."
Source: Cebbar Leygara, Kurdish Leader, October 13, 1992
293-“…He committed murder — in German there is the word 'Rufmord,' which means the murder of one´s reputation — by defaming the name of the Turkish nation, the killing of one's reputation. Sometimes 'Rufmord' is worse than real murder. It leads easily to further crimes, in our case against Turkey and Turks…"
Source: Erich Feigl, Professor, "The Myth of Terror." Commenting on Franz Werfel, author of "The Forty Days of Musa Dagh," book with a tremendous worldwide impact, and one that was accepted as a true story... even though Werfel irresponsibly relied on bogus sources.
Werfel did apologize in his death bed to his good friend Albert Amateau, an Ottoman-Jew later a naturalized American, for writing Musa Dagh based on the misrepresentations by a close Armenian priest friend. Werfel must have figured, if one cannot trust an Armenian priest, what Armenian can one trust? Apparently, not many.
Part 95 of 999
294-“…“Jewish people must always recall the Ottoman Empire with gratitude who, at one of Judaism’s darkest hours, flung open its door widely and kept them open…"
Source: Cecil Roth, historian
295-“… An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust could be the systematic extermination of all the Moslem population in the Republic of Independent Armenia, which represented at least 30 to 40 % of the total population of this republic..."
Source: The Jewish Times, June 21, 1990, Circulation: 470,000
296- "...We reject attempts to create a similarity between the Holocaust and the Armenian allegations. Nothing similar to the Holocaust occurred. It is a tragedy what the Armenians went through, but not a genocide."
Israeli Foreign Minister and 1994 Nobel Peace Prize winner Shimon Peres Turkish Daily News, April 10, 2001, Ankara, Turkey
297-“…"…Israel recognizes the tragedy of the Armenians, however, these events can not be compared with a genocide..."
Source: Israeli Foreign Office, Official statement, February 19, 2002
Part 96 of 999
298- "…It should be our moral obligation to defend Turkey…"
Source: Dr. J. E. Botton, Jewish-American originally from Turkey, speaking for all Jews, in memory of the Turkish nation's being one of the very, very few friends of the Jews throughout history; in a letter to Forward, early 2001
299-“…Pass through the gateways of this book, turn to the way of God, study its tales, read and see that God, in His wisdom and understanding, rendered this Turkish nation great.... The Turks is the rod of His wrath, the staff of His anger, and by means of Him He takes His vengeance of the gentle nations and tongues and states whose time has come..."
Source: Eliyahu Kapsali,16th century Jewish historian, writing in Crete, attributing the collapse of the Byzantine Empire and its conquest by the Ottomans directly to the Byzantine persecution of the Jews; Source: Prof. Stanford Shaw
300-“… It is actually an understatement that there was no anti-Semitism in Turkey. In fact, there was a pro-Semitism. Ottoman governments treated their Jewish subjects with a special consideration and compassion as one of their own, as one of the most loyal and devoted subjects of the empire...”
Source: Haim Nahum, last Grand Rabbi of the Ottoman Empire,(1924) It was common practice in the Ottoman Empire to populate the new conquests by Turks for military strength and discipline and by Jews for crafts and trades.
In the Sesquicentennial (500th Year) Museum in Istanbu ( celebrating the saving of Jews by the Ottomans from the Spanish Inquisitions, and choice of conversion to Catholicism, death, or exile,) one can still see the original of a very telling document: One governor, newly appointed to a Turkish conquest in central Europe, is complaining to Sublime Porte about another newly appointed the governor appointed to Cyprus (conquest: 1571) saying the latter “…stole his Jews…” and that “…he wants his Jews back…” Can you imagine? Two Ottoman governors, both wanting Jews so much, that they are fighting over Jews, each owning up to the Jews, and willing to complain all the way to the Sultan at the top? Such documents speak volumes. They should certainly drown out all the Armenian lies, distortions, and falsifications. The truth conquers all.
Part 97 of 999
301-“…We have first hand information and evidence of Armenian atrocities against our people (Jews). Members of our family witnessed the murder of 148 members of our family near Erzurum, Turkey, by Armenian neighbors, bent on destroying anything and anybody remotely Jewish and/or Muslim... Armenians were in league with Hitler in the last war, on his promise to grant themselves government if, in return, the Armenians would help exterminate Jews. Armenians were also hearty proponents of the anti-Semitic acts in league with the Russian Communists."
Source: Elihu Ben Levi, Vacaville, California, letter, San Francisco Chronicle (December 11, 1983).[Armenian guerillas rounded up and massacred Jews in the area of Hakkari; in Trabzon and vicinity they massacred thousands of Greeks. The idea behind these atrocities was to secure an Armenian majority.(Kara Schemsi, Tures et Arméniens devant l'Histoire, Gèneve, Imprimerie Nationale, 1919, p. 49, 41). Jews were attacked everywhere; the Commander of Gendarmerie Regiment at Van recorded: "Some three hundred Jews trying to escape from Akaridan were captured at the village of Sil and cut into pieces. Then (the Armenians) stacked the corpses." (Aspirations and revolutionary movements of the Armenian parties,. pp. 298-309)]
302-“… As I became more knowledgeable and could compare cultures and countries around the globe with the passing of age and experience, we became much more appreciative of the benevolence of the Turkish people who harbored the Jewish people through incredibly barbaric times in the annals of European history. In retrospect of what we know of European history today, we owe Turkish people a great debt of gratitude for saving the lives of thousands of Jews."
Source: Israel Hanukoglu, professor , College of Judea and Samaria; Ariel, Israel; from his Story of Turkish Jews. This from the people the Armenians look to, for "Genocidal Comparison".
303-“…The Armenians want to benefit from both worlds. On the one hand, they speak with pride of their struggle against the Ottoman despotism, while on the other hand, they compare their tragedy to the Jewish Holocaust. I do not accept this. I do not say that the Armenians did not suffer terribly. But I find enough cause for me to contain their attempts to use the Armenian massacres to diminish the worth of the Jewish Holocaust and to relate to it instead as an ethnic dispute."
Source: Dalia Karpel, from her article "There Was No Genocide," relating to her interview with History Professor Bernard Lewis, published in the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz, January 23, 1998.
Ergun Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA#562
Saturday
Part 98 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
Here is what Armenians do not want you to know. If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification.
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to remind the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
304-“… If 1.5 million Armenian lost their lives during that war, they died as soldiers, fighting a war of their own choosing, against the Ottoman Empire which had treated them decently and benignly. They were the duped victims of the Russians, of the Allies, and of their own Armenian leaders. A few thousand Armenians may have lost their lives during their relocation, caused by their own subversion…"
Source: Rabbi Albert Amateau, Sephardic Jewish leader in the United States, in his sworn testimony to persuade Congress to not implement yet another Armenian "Genocide" resolution... this time brought by Senator Robert Dole, in 1990. As a young student in the Ottoman Empire, Amateau got first-hand exposure to the young Armenians who revealed their plans of betrayal to him... believing Amateau was a Christian Frenchman.(This is the same Albert Amateau who is a close friend of Franz Werfel and to whom Werfel confessed at Werfel’s deathbed about being duped by the Armenians into writing that Musa Dagh tall tale.)
305-“… The turk is so absolutely without a moral sense, so unutterably bestial in his consideration of woman, so unthinkably vile and filthy in his personal habits, and so hopelessly degraded in his relations with his fellow man that the depth of his infamy is past all human credence. The turk is not a human being. I do not call him a beast, because not one of God's dumb creatures could sink so low. The turk is a devil without a tail. And the educated, polished turk — the official who affects a knowledge of the French language and a veneering of Parisian manners — is the most unspeakable fiend of all. In proof that this assertion is based on incontestable truth I challenge denial from any unprejudiced man who has known the turk thoroughly well for a quarter of a century."
Source: William W. Howard, 1896, from an Armenian Web Site
Part 100 of 999
310-"…We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the Turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination…."
Source: Ohanus Appressian, describing incidents in 1919; Memoirs of an Armenian officer, Men Are Like That,1926.
Please note that the last few quotations are not from ordinary Armenians, therefore, cannot be readily dismissed as hapless repartee by some ignorant fanatic Armenians. The bigoted Armenian leaders who wrote these horrible comments were unfortunately the same ones who influenced, formulated, manipulated, and/or dictated Armenian policies before, during, and after the WWI.
You can now understand what the Ottoman government was really up against: a bunch of vicious, racist, treasonous, well-armed terrorists who did not hesitate to kill unprotected women and children of Turkish villages -- as all the able bodied Turkish men were sent to many distant fronts to defend the country against the invaders.
Please also note that over half a million Muslims, mostly Turks, ruthlessly met their tragic end during the WWI at the hands of these Armenian nationalists. Can you now begin to understand why? When a community is fed such racist guidance and teachings day in day out, something is got to give.
Today, we witness the same kind of arrogant and racist attitude in the writings of many AFATH members (one writes here under the name jda), their extensions in the media, and the Armenian-financed genocide scholars. To these AFATH writers, the bona fide cases of genocide around the world do not seem to exist; only the bogus genocide claims of the Armenians do. They only pay a brief lip service to the genocides in Cambodia, Bosnia, and Rwanda, and devote the rest of their writings to the Armenian-Turkish civil war which they unfairly, incorrectly, but deliberately call genocide.
To these people, Armenian armed uprisings and treason are not important. Who fired the first shot is inconsequential. The facts that the Armenians had standing armies of 150,000 men and that they were belligerents -- and described as such by the wartime Armenian leaders (Boghos Noubar, Katchaznouni, etc.)-- are to be ignored. Also to be dismissed are the rights of the Turks to defend themselves and their country in face of foreign invasion facilitated by some disloyal citizens. Well, what's left to consider?
How else can anyone explain the tragic ending of the millennium of harmonious Turkish-Armenian cohabitation in Anatolia?
If Armenians didn't rise up in arms, didn't side with the invading Russians, didn't massacre Turks, didn't undermine the Ottoman war effort; they would still be in Anatolia today, like they have been for a millennium before 1915…
It is that plain and simple…
Ergun Kirlikovali Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
jda
San Francisco, CA#565
mr kirkikovali
Why don't you quote the portions of the de Nogales memoir where he discusses the orders received to kill Armenian civilians?
Why don't you explain whyt hundreds of thousands of Christian Assyrians who never rose in revolt were killed the same way?
I guess it's the "kill" in kirlikovali
Ergun Kirlikovali
Trabuco Canyon, CA#566
Part 101 of 999
311- GENERAL RAFAEL DE NOGALES ‘S BOOKS ON TURKS
General Rafael de Nogales' book, "Memoirs of a Soldier of Fortune" (Garden City, NY, 1932) provide most revealing insights into the Turkish character, fighting man, and war conditions (please see www.tallarmenaintale.com ) as well as Nogales’ errors, omissions, and misconceptions.
Armenian Genocide propaganda industry made good use the De Nogales book "Four Years Beneath the Crescent." The Venezuelan cattle rustler and soldier-of-fortune evidently had feelings of ambivalence.
While happy to get a shot at playing soldier on the side of the Ottomans, he no doubt disliked the idea of fighting fellow Christians, the Armenians. Nogales demonstrates his dilemma throughout. For instance, he refers to Van as the "capital of Armenia," a glaring mistake, if not deliberate affront and/or propaganda.
Nogales also wrote that he was sentenced to death, because he knew too much.(P. 287.) He "had the misfortune of being the only Christian among the sixty thousand Turks who had put down the Armenian revolution," witnessing scenes "no Christian should have ever witnessed and lived to tell about later."
He felt that Khalil and Djevded (governor of Van) had it in for him, because if de Nogales had reached "Constantinople alive and let out [his] information, they would have a devil of a time justifying themselves." Yet he speaks well of both men, saying they were "the best of friends," and their murderous intentions were only the result of "self-preservation," and that he would "probably have done the same," had he been in their place.
Although Nogales decided to "shut up like a clam on all matters concerning the Armenian massacres until the day arrived when [he] could write about them from a safe distance!" (p. 290), it seems odd he would have been allowed to slip through the Turks' fingers if murder was really the Turks' intent.
If Nogales was truly threatened by the two men he named, that only demonstrates — if these two were guilty of indiscriminate mass murder — that crimes were committed on the local level. If there were a centrally-directed plan for systematic extermination, and if the Ottoman leadership decided Nogales would spill the beans afterwards, it would have been very easy to have done away with him.
Part 102 of 999
312- GENERAL RAFAEL DE NOGALES ‘S BOOKS ON TURKS (continued…)
“…(T)he officers' corps of the Young Turks who dethroned Sultan Abu-UI-Hamid was composed almost entirely of regular army officers, that is to say, not of officers who had risen from the ranks, but of military academy graduates belonging in many cases to the most aristocratic families of the empire. The most efficient arm was represented in our Ottoman army by the infantry; by those fierce (soldiers) who once laid the banners of over a hundred conquered nations at the feet of their mighty sultans…” says Nogales.
Note that Armenians are not even counted in that “hundred conquered nations”. Armenians, truth be told, do not figure in the realm of balance of political powers of the era; they are just insignificant pawns to be manipulated and directed towards imperialistic goals of Russia, Britain, and France, targets for conversion for missionaries, useful contacts for Western traders; and other trivial goals like these. When Armenians started their agitations, raids, ambushes, rebellions, treason, and territorial demands and the death toll among Turks due to Armenian insurrection started rising, Armenians became an unexpected nuisance, a surprise sore point, and later a home security problem, to be confronted.
Nogales continues:“…While fighting and running alternately on our various fronts I had opportunity to observe our Turkish soldiers rather closely. We hardly ever dared to order them to attack with the bayonet, for we had no way of recalling them after they had started to charge. We did not use bugles in action, only whistles… As soon as the command to attack was given, off they went, shouting " Allah, Allah," to die to the last man beneath the concentrated enemy artillery and machine-gun fire. Those (soldiers) never looked back, only forward…”
Nogales’ words here are striking:“…In the Bukowina, in northern Rumania, for instance, we had two or three Turkish divisions helping the Germans and Austrians stem the Russians' advance. Every time the mujiks attacked the Austrians our Turks had invariably to rescue Emperor Joseph's soldiers and drive back the enemy. So much so that finally orders were given that the Austrians' military activities should be limited to digging trenches and to preparing food for the Turks who, in exchange for the Austrians' menial work, would do all the fighting alone…”
Part 103 of 999
312- GENERAL RAFAEL DE NOGALES ‘S BOOKS ON TURKS (continued…)
This quote from Nogales is for the rat in Ararat who demonizes Turks here all the time:
“…One day the Turks were not satisfied with the way the Austrians had dug out a new set of trenches and went on a strike; they attacked the Russians without orders and refused to return unless the Austrians were ordered to rebuild their trenches in a proper way… Whenever I entered one of our barracks and watched our soldiers fixing up their beds, mending their uniforms, or squat- ting cross-legged on the floor, reading their prayer books, I could not help feeling as if I had entered a cage full of tame lions and Bengal tigers…”
And this quote from Nogales establishes the ties of heritage between the Turks of Anatolia today and Turkic nations of Central and Western Asia, to the shagrin of the rat in ararat:
“… The Turk reveals plainly his Tartar descent during theatrical performances when, as among the Chinese, male actors substitute for female actresses. He is also like a Tartar in his way of dressing. Most of our soldiers, like the average Kalmuck of central Asia, were of the opinion that heavy clothing protects one not only from cold but also from heat…(They) seemed to enjoy their wardrobes immensely. Many of our soldiers wore, seemingly without discomfort, even in the heart of the desert, the same heavy woolen uniforms which they used among the eternal snows of the Caucasus... Another of the peculiarities of the Turks was their preference for bread. They ate, as a rule, very little meat or vegetables; but bread, no matter whether fresh, stale, black or white, they .would eat by the bushel, probably on account of their Koran, which, like the Bible, speaks feelingly about "our daily bread.."
And this is when the Armenians, with their Russian supplied Mosin rifles, were happy to hit the rear of the Ottoman armies, betray their own government and country, instead of defending their own home against the Russian invader:
Part 104 of 999
312- GENERAL RAFAEL DE NOGALES ‘S BOOKS ON TURKS (continued…)
“…During our miscarried offensive of Sari-Kamish; near Erzeroum, in 1915, for instance, we lost thirty thousand men in less than two days, mostly frozen to death. Nevertheless, in spite of that drawback, our Third Caucasus army kept fighting the Russians and driving them back at the point of its bayonets with more vigor than ever…
A far greater toll than by bullets and cold was exacted from us by the terrible typhus epidemic which broke out in Turkey almost immediately after the beginning of the World War. On our Caucasus front, where we were separated from the rest of the world by a roadless barrier of two hundred miles of mountainous frozen wilderness, hundreds and even thousands of our wounded and typhus-stricken (soldiers), for whom there was no room left in our Erzeroum lazarets, were handed some money and a knapsack full of food and allowed to trek back across the howling wilderness in search of Erzindjan, Trebizond or Sivas, which were the only three towns provided with hospitals within a radius of two hundred miles…
I met hundreds of those poor dying wretches along the goat- trails which crossed those snowy wastes. Most of them were al- ready on their way to the great beyond: Living skeletons who were dragging themselves by the dozen on hands and knees over the frozen snow-fields, closely followed by ravenous bands of wolves which were waiting only for the night to set in. I remembered a wounded soldier who had bandaged a fresh saber-cut on his arm with some filthy rags which he had torn from the festering wounds of a dead comrade…
I mention the foregoing examples only to support my contention that the Turk is one of the most enduring, best-disciplined of soldiers. I would pity the European officers who should try to submit their troops to the hardship and misery which the Turkish soldier suffered during the war. Yet our (soldiers) never uttered a word of complaint, but stumbled along starving and fighting for the glory of the crimson crescent and the cause of the Mohammedan world until merciful death finally put an end to their sufferings…”
Part 105 of 999
(Please see above for previous parts)
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
Here is what Armenians do not want you to know. If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how the Armenians cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations. They will, instead, fill this column with filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification.
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to remind the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their Tereset (temporary resettlement.)
312- GENERAL RAFAEL DE NOGALES ‘S BOOKS ON TURKS (continued…)
Here is the horror of war, not genocide, Nogales narrates:
“…I remember well how one afternoon, while. we were fighting the Siberian Iron Legions in the heart of wild Kurdist.an, my horse was shot and I landed knee-deep in the snow. As I protected my face with one hand from the raging blizzard and fought off with the other a Cossack, I felt someone pulling at the hem of my long military coat. It was Ismail Effendi, one of our squadron commanders, who by half buried beneath the snow. One of his ryes had been put out by a deep sword-thrust. His violet, trembling lips were muttering feebly, as if in a dream :
"Nogales Beym, bir limonade, reyaederim, " which means "please get me a lemonade, Nogales Bey."
At that moment I managed to get clear of my Cossack assailant with a well-aimed saber-cut and, bending down, I lifted Ismail's head carefully and whispered into his ear:‘Right away, brother, right away.’
He stretched out his weary limbs, trembled slightly and smiled happily as he passed the threshold of Paradise...”
Part 106 of 999
312- GENERAL RAFAEL DE NOGALES ‘S BOOKS ON TURKS (continued…)
This quote shows Armenian treason and rebellion which led to their Tereset in 1915. It also shows exposes the “poor, starving Armenians victimized by genocide” myth and establishes “well armed and motivated Armenian revolutionaries fighting a civil war”:
“…To show the devotion of the Turkish askar to his officers I will cite the following example: At dawn of April 25, 1915, during the siege of Van, capital of Armenia, which I was conducting, our artillery opened fire by sections, and the thunder of musketry, which had been diminishing during the night, recommenced emphatically. Wherever our shells fell walls and roofs crumbled to the ground, raising columns of smoke and dust intermingled with showers of sparks which, scattering, poured down like lava torrents upon the combatants.
While inspecting our eastern sector I noticed a commotion. Bayonets flashed. Wild Kurdish tribesmen with drawn yataghans poured by the dozen from a neighboring building like rats fleeing from a sinking ship. A concussion shook the building in which some of our artillerymen had placed a fieldpiece for the purpose of breaking through the walls which separated them from the enemy. As a result of the repeated discharges of the gun the roof had caved in with a crash, burying beneath its debris and cutting off a part of the gun-crew who ran the risk of falling into the hands of the Armenian comitadchis. These had not been loath to take advantage of the general confusion in order to invade the burning building. Having made up my mind to save our gun and its crew at all costs, I rushed into the midst of the ruin, followed by a sergeant and a corporal who had joined me voluntarily.
Part 107 of 999
312- GENERAL RAFAEL DE NOGALES ‘S BOOKS ON TURKS (continued…)
I soon got sight of the crimson fezes of the Armenians. They were yelling and rushing hither and thither, like giant bats, across the thick smoke-screen and the clouds of dust which the crumbling walls kept kicking up as they toppled over and hit the ground with a crash that could be heard for blocks around. They fired their Mauser pistols pointblank at us and occasionally slashed at our faces with their long, curved, razor-like yataghans. Though half blinded by the flash of the shots and volleys which illuminated fantastically the surrounding twilight, the sergeant and I continued to repulse the Armenians.
They kept pressing us from the front and both sides. Finally, the corporal succeeded in fastening a rope to the gun-carriage of the field- piece and the rest of the crew began to pull it hurriedly from the smoldering ruin. The salvage of that gun cost us five lives and a number of wounded, the corporal among the latter, as a bullet had ploughed through his cheek at the last minute…After the siege of Van we decided to retreat with our expeditionary army across Kurdistan for the purpose of entrenching ourselves around Bitlis, in western Armenia. Our Van Gendarmery Division, composed of twelve veteran battalions, was to form the vanguard; and, after picking up some reinforcements at the kasaba of Shaghmanis, it was to continue in the direction of Vastan, followed closely by the rest of our expeditionary forces…”
Part 108 of 999
312- GENERAL RAFAEL DE NOGALES ‘S BOOKS ON TURKS (continued…)
Here is the war (not genocide):
“… Finally, after minutes which seemed an eternity, we jumped off our horses and raced to the top of the divide at the very moment when the Russians and the Armenian comitadchis were reaching also the top from the opposite direction… Then we clashed. It was a fight to the death: no quarter was given, no quarter asked— l'Orient c'est l'Orient! A tall, gray- haired, bare-headed (Armenian) comitadchi in a flowing kaftan made a lunge at me with his long, curved yataghan, only to crumple up in a heap as one of our soldiers placed a bullet right between his eyes… Though the clash of steel, the roar of volleys at short range and the yelping and howling of the storming enemy kept me busy trying to keep my soul and body together—for one's skin does not grow but once—I could not help admiring the utter disregard for life of our grim-faced (soldiers), who kept shooting and hacking away all around me, with only a subdued "Allah" passing now and then through tightly pressed lips, or a low moan when an enemy bullet, bayonet or yataghan, found its mark…“
Anyone who insists on calling this war a genocide is a biased bigot bent on an anti-Turkish agenda, like the rat in ararat.
Part 109 of 999
312- GENERAL RAFAEL DE NOGALES ‘S BOOKS ON TURKS (continued…)
TURKISH SKETCHES BY NOGALES
On Turkish discipline:
“… As soon as my bugler had blared out my command to assemble for the evening salute and the buglers of the different squadrons had followed suit, the grayish plain of Shishly was suddenly enveloped in a dense cloud of dust as our eight hundred chargers, each mounted by a grim-faced daredevil, thundered up from different directions at breakneck speed to form in battle-line. Their officers, a dashing, smartly uniformed, yet thoroughly soldierly looking set of young military academy effendis, were racing ahead of their men at regulation distances… All of our (mounted soldiers) were excellent horsemen; some of them had distinguished themselves during the military tournaments, especially in the tests of endurance and jumping…”
Part 110 of 999
312- GENERAL RAFAEL DE NOGALES ‘S BOOKS ON TURKS (continued…)
TURKISH SKETCHES BY NOGALES
“… Our men, with their swords and lances flashing in the air , shouted back my salute, "Hail thee, our Lord, our Mighty Sultan!" with a thundering, frantic, savage shout, which almost caused the earth to tremble beneath our horses' feet, and finally died out gradually, almost reluctantly, like the distant roar of a wounded lion… I will never forget as long as I live that terribly sublime, awe- inspiring scene; that mighty, savage sound as I heard it so often in the deserts of Arabia, Mesopotamia and among the eternal snows of the Caucasus, when scores of neighing horses raced up with empty saddles and stood proudly in line, by sheer force of habit, as soon as our buglers sounded "assembly;" when many a wounded soldier in blood-drenched uniform kept swaying back and forth in his saddle while vainly endeavoring to stem with his poor, knotty hands a steady stream of blood and shouted, or tried at least to shout, with a last hoarse effort, "Hail thee, our Lord, our Mighty Sultan!... Whenever I remember those scenes of almost incredible valor, I cannot help feeling proud of having led those brave and modest ‘unknown soldiers’ of the Ottoman Empire during the four years of the World War, for those tattered fellows with rusty swords and lances certainly knew how to fight and die like men when grim death knocked at their doors and grinned. No wonder that when Marshal Izzed Pasha, during the Armistice parleys, indignantly refused to surrender the German troops which remained still in Turkey, the British commander of the Allied forces exclaimed aghast at such gallantry:‘ By Jove, those Turks are certainly the first gentlemen of the Orient!’…”
And this on Turkish discipline:
Part 111 of 999
312- GENERAL RAFAEL DE NOGALES ‘S BOOKS ON TURKS (continued…)
TURKISH SKETCHES BY NOGALES
This one on Turkish valor:
“… If one adds to that Britisher's opinion that of the majority of the British and colonial officers who fought against the Turks in Egypt, Mesopotamia and the Dardanelles and who unanimously declared the Turk to be a "clean fighter," one may be able to draw an approximate picture of the Turkish soldier as I knew him and studied him during the four years of the World War…”
This Nogales quote is for those (like the rat in Ararat) who like ridiculing and demonizing Turks:
“… Many a Turkish proverb explains why the apparently clumsy and slow-witted Turk usually has his way when he settles down to business. One of them states that the easiest way of catching a rabbit is to hunt it down in a carriage. After scaring it up one must follow at a slow trot and, after catching up with it and scaring it again and again—about a couple dozen times—one steps out of one's carriage and picks the tired rabbit up by the ears…There is a lot of philosophy in that simple system of yawash, yawash, equivalent to "take it easy; don't get rattled!" which, when applied to politics or warfare, represents the real reason why the European nations, in spite of their many efforts, have never been able to put anything over on the wily Turk. Once the Turk has made a resolution it is almost impossible to beat him at his game…”
Part 112 of 999
312- GENERAL RAFAEL DE NOGALES ‘S BOOKS ON TURKS (continued…)
TURKISH SKETCHES BY NOGALES
This Nogales quote explains the element of respect for elders in the Turkish culture (backstabbing ingrates need not try to understand:)
“…(O)nly after the corporal or the oldest member of the group had taken the first mouthful of food did the rest (of the soldiers) dig in also. The Turks are very respectful of their elders…No ‘real’ Turk will ever sit down or address his superior or elder—be he a prince or only a ragged white-bearded beggar— until the latter has sat down or addressed him first…”
This Nogales quote is for those screaming, demanding, crying, backstabbing Armenians:
“…I have never yet heard a Turkish soldier complain of hunger or thirst. Those (soldiers)(soldiers) of ours would file along, grim and silent, sometimes with no more nourishment than a crust of stale bread or a handful of olives, without letting a complaint or even a whisper of dismay cross their fevered lips…”
This quote clearly states how the Armenians prospered in the Ottoman Empire, before the ingrate Armenians decided to backstab their home country anyway:
“…If it had not been for the Greek and Armenian profiteers who accumulated fortunes at the expense of our poor half-starved Turkish soldiers we would have had provisions to spare…”
Part 113 of 999
312- GENERAL RAFAEL DE NOGALES ‘S BOOKS ON TURKS (continued…)
TURKISH SKETCHES BY NOGALES
Here another quote from Nogales on the character of the Turkish soldier:
“… The Turkish soldier is a rather ticklish citizen when one tries to step on his toes. There is the case of Field Marshal von der Goltz's son-in-law… who was holding the job of instructor in a Turkish regiment at Adrianople just after the Second Balkan War. While the young lieutenant was trying to explain in true Prussian style to one of our Albanian (soldiers) the way he ought to wear his military fur cap, and shoved it unceremoniously back to where it belonged, the askar, without saying a word, raised his gun and shot the lieutenant down… Lord Kitchener who served several years as a captain or major in the Turkish army, and Field Marshal von Moltke, the hero of the Franco-Prussian War, who also served in the Ottoman army, are supposed to have witnessed and reported cases of a similar character which go to uphold the statement that one must never try to step on a Turkish soldier's toes or mistake him for a fool or an easy mark…”
Part 114 of 999
312- Atrocities And Pogroms Committed By The Armenian Nationalists In Anatolia:
“…After hostilities had actually commenced, the Deputy to the Assembly for Erzerum, Garo Pasdermichan, passed over with almost all the Armenian troops and officers of the Third Army to the Russians; to return with them soon after, burning hamlets and mercilessy putting to the knife all of the peaceful Mussulman villagers that fell into their hands."
Source: Rafael de Nogales, A Venezuelan adventurer; joined the Ottoman army to fight in WWI; later became a Venezuelan general, Four Years Beneath the Crescent (translated from Spanish by Muna Lee)
Ergun Kirlikovali Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
jda
Oakland, CA#580
writing about Albanians shooting their German officers is very interesting. Why don't You write about de Nogales being told by the Governor of Diyarbekir area that Talaat gave him an order to kill the Armenian civilians?
Need the citation for the pages?
try reading and quoting page 125 of the English translation
Ergun Kirlikovali
Trabuco Canyon, CA#582
Part 115 of 999
313- "… I cannot say what the role of Talaat was as concerns the issuing of orders. As far as I know the principal order pertaining to the deportation of the Armenians was given on May 20, 1915. In any event it was the result of a decision of the Young Turk committee and it had the unanimous approval of the ministers. The implementation of the orders was left to the Valis, the lower echelon officials, and especially the horrible police force. In any event, I consider it my duty to state that, in the five years I was in Turkey, I never saw an order signed by Talaat against the Armenians and neither can I testify whether or not such an order was ever issued…"
Source: General Liman von Sanders, as witness for the defense, in the trial of Tehlirian, assassin of Talat Pasha. Since the Germans were behind the workings of the Ottoman war machine, how is it possible that the main German commander would not have come across any government-sponsored genocidal order? If a government decides to commit genocide, they would have to let local officials know about such a policy... otherwise, how could the genocide be carried out? The Armenian claims of any “smoking gun”, including but not limited to Andonian fakes and Nogales reprints by Armenians, are merely Armenian fabrications and falsifications, and thus, not to be trusted.
Part 116 of 999
314- "..Nearly everyone who touches upon the kernel of the nation learns to respect and love Turks, to humiliate Greeks, to hate and despise Armenians... Everywhere justifies the proverb, that the Greek defrauds 2 Jews, but the Armenian defrauds 2 Greeks. Certainly, if you have been defrauded in Anatolia, so you had a business with an Armenian… When I had business with Turks, I didn't need a written document, because his vow was enough. When I had business with Greeks, I was in need to sign the written document, because it is important for them. But when I had business with Armenians, I didn't sign any documents, because even the written document can't provide a barrier for their mendacity and intrigue.."
Source: German traveler, from the book "Outlines of Anatolia," p..6, p.188-191 ( I agree, from personal experience with dealing with Armenians in America, that they are not to be trusted. They lie and fabricate easily and then they like boasting about their conquests. This is quite in line with what we read in history about them, casi in point, famous con men like Andonian, Schmavonian, Verjebedian, Pinocchian, and others.)
Part 117 of 999
315- "...In some towns containing ten Armenian houses and thirty Turkish houses, it was reported that 40,000 people were killed, about 10,000 women were taken to the harem, and thousands of children left destitute; and the city university destroyed, and the bishop killed. It is a well-known fact that even in the last war the native Christians, despite the Turkish cautions, armed themselves and fought on the side of the Allies. In these conflicts, they were not idle, but they were well supplied with artillery, machine guns and inflicted heavy losses on their enemies…"
Source: George M. Lamsa, a missionary known for his research on Christianity, "The Secret of the Near East," The Ideal Press, Philadelphia (1923), page 133 (This is a rare missionary who saw through the lies, distortions, and embellishments filed by Armenian nationalists via missionaries and Western diplomats that eventually found their way, without any checking as to their veracity, into the media and from there, into the hearts and minds of unsuspecting public. This is what we are seeing today.)
Part 118 of 999
316- "…I once asked a professor of mine who taught a class on the laws of war and war crimes at Columbia Law School to deprogram me from all the propaganda I had received growing up Turkish. I asked him to please find me evidence of the genocide by neutral scholars so I could know the truth…After investigating the issue, he came back and said that he could not find one non-Armenian scholar who believed this was a genocide, but since 'it looked like a duck, it walked like a duck and it talked like a duck, it must be a duck.' If that's not the product of excellent propaganda, I don't know what is."
Cenk Uygur, a Turkish-American writing to salon.com in 1999, now behind a radio talk show called 'The Young Turks'; his professor must have been wise enough to distinguish genuine non-Armenian scholars (i.e, those who look at all the facts) from the many false scholars who mindlessly or purposely accept Armenian claims.
Thank you, Cenk, for I could not have explained the Armenian propaganda and deception better myself. That’s why I coined the term “ethocide”, my gift to the English language, meaning “exterminations of ethics via malicious mass deception for political gain.”)
Part 119 of 999
317- About the Assyrian betrayals:
"…In 1906 the Russian army had instructed the Russian consul in Van to visit the Assyrian Patriarch and ask whether Russia could count on the Assyrians for help in the event of a war with the Ottoman Empire. Mar Shamun Beniamin promised that if Russia took Van and armed the Assyrians, he would produce a force of forty thousand men and occupy the land between Mosul and Bitlis..."
Source: Michael A. Reynolds, "The Ottoman-Russian Struggle for Eastern Anatolia and the Caucasus," Nov. 2003 dissertation, p. 141. Source: K.P. Matveev and I.I. Mar-Iukhanna, Assiriiskii vopros vo vremia i posle pervoi mirovoi voiny (1914-1933)(Moscow: Nauka, 1968), 42. The Assyrians numbered between 150,000-200,000, about 70,000 in Iran. Those who believe in an "Assyrian Genocide" can see the familiar roots of treachery.
Ergun Kirlikovali, Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides, www.turkla.com
Harry Armpitian
Burbank, CA #587 Monday Feb 2
Armo Vs Turk. I hope they BOTH lose
Decent White Man Burbank, CA #588
Monday Feb 2
God bless the Turks. We need them to come to Glendale and clense our city of this Armenian Filth! Next clean up Montebello and Fresno. Keep America Beautiful - Give a Turk an Armenian's Address
jda
Los Angeles, CA #589 Monday Feb 2
Ergun,
Your proud allies write.
Ergun Kirlikovali Irvine, CA #590 Monday Feb 2
Ra note to the rat in ararat,
Merely the fact that I am able to write fo so long and so effortlessly attests to he fact that there is a huge other side that is unknown, the Turkish side, that is kept from the public by the AFATH (Armenian Falsifiers and Turk-Haters) community.
And we haven't even scracthed the surface yet!
When I am done writing, there will not be one racist Armenian boasting about how they duped the world with a bogus genocide claim.
If you think people who write here are my friends or acquaintances (thinking that's how the Armenians would work in propaganda projects anyway), then you are in for a big surprise... again!
Would you like me to quote a few (!) Glendale residents who are fed up with Armenian lies, intimidation and terror and would like to see Armenians gone, forgotten, done away with?
You, Armenian falsifiers, are so full of yourselves, that you don't even realize how intensely detested you are by average Americans living in Glendale ... Really!
Ergun Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA
#591 Monday Feb 2
Thanks to the provocations by the rat in ararat, I am motivated enough to bring out heretofore hidden facts about the bogus Armenian genocide. Our enlightenment shall, of course, continue.
This is not 1915 and Pasadena Star News is not the New York Times. NYT published 145 anti-Turkish artciles, all reported by the AFATH community, none checked for accuracy, and ZERO opportunity was given the Turks to tell their side of the story, or at least, refute the Armenian claims. PST, on the other hand, gives me this chance, a first in America, to share my side of the story with the decent citizens of America (AFATH community members excluded from this definition.)
It gives me distinct pleasure to raise a proud Turkish flag smack in the middle of Armenian terror capital of America...
Stay tuned for more stunning exposes on Armenian falsifications and fabrications...
I shall let the truth and facts jointly drive a giant stake through the heart of that vampirical Armenian hate-cultivation-machine, the Schiff-land...
Armenian lobby, you jig is up!
jda San Mateo, CA #592 Monday Feb 2
Heard it.
What about Nogales page 125?
Ergun Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA #593 Monday Feb 2
That's Armenian falsification, just like the Walter Murphy story you fabricated.
jda San Francisco, CA #594 Monday Feb 2
are you saying de Nogales made it up, or that the passage is not inhis book?
as for Murphy, it was an anti-armenian sentiment designed to show you that you are biased. It worked, but you continue to slog on weightewd down by racism, and a host of limitations.
Try meditation. or Sufi prayer.
gottawonder Los Angeles, CA #595 Monday Feb 2
Armenian and Turkish feuds in America? LOL Why don't they do all their crying at home and why are they crying a river here?
Ergun Kirlikovali Irvine, CA #596 Monday Feb 2
This is home.
jda San Mateo, CA #597 Monday Feb 2
Well, actually, Kirlikovali, if this is home, why do you write on Turkish websites about how the United Sattes owes you and every Turk an apology for the high crime of....sending Christian missionaries to Turkey 125 years ago and joining the allies of WWI?
More importantly, why do you lie daily on the web about easily verifiable events?
Example: YOUR POST ON 'TURKISH FORUM" today.
Yout post is another example of your apparent unwillingness actually to read your posted material, and your knowing distortion of the material itself.
The Lang speech, as poorly translated by google etc. as it may be, does not deny that Genocide of the Christian subjects did not occur. In fact, it posits that Turkish military units killed Armenians.
Lang says that free speech is better than Denial laws, and as an American, I agree. I hope Turkey will agree someday that people asserting the Genocide thesis, or criticizing Ataurk may say what they want without prosecution or death. Remember what Dink said - he would deny the Genocide in France if the law passed.
I call again to your attention your shameful and dishonorable conduct on January 19, 2007, when you said Dink was killed by an "anti-Turk', code for an Armenian. You have yet to apologize to your readers or to the Dink family, or to tell your readers you were wrong. One hopes you agree today that you were wrong.
There is no evidence that Lang has been threatened by any Armenian for turning about face about the utility of the Denial law. Your statement that he was threatened is once again shameful and defamatory.
Have you read page 125 of the English translation of de Nogales yet?
The only threat Lang and the other Deputies received came in 2006 when Turkey threatened to cancel military hardware orders.
If you know of actual Armenian threats to Lang, please identify them.
P.S.'false flag" messages don't count.
Ergun Kirlikovali Irvine, CA #598 Tuesday Feb 3
The rat in ararat is an expert in law now... (smiles)
jda San Mateo, CA #600 Tuesday Feb 3
Mr. Kirlikovali,
The charge you have made in these pages that I am a terrorist, and support terrorism are libel per se under the California Civil Code. If you have evidence of it, I suggest you post it. You have shown a willingness to defame people before, e.g. your claim that an identifiable person violates the provisions of Penal Code Secttion 647.
Understand that you do not need to resort to defamation in order to opose an idea or propose one of your own, but defaming the authors is a tacit admission you have nothing to say.
It does not require a degree in law to recognize that Mr. Fein contradicts himself, depending on whether he represents Tamils or Turks. It does require a simple ability to read.
Ergun Kirlikovali Irvine, CA #601 Tuesday Feb 3
The rat in ararat is an expert in law now... (smiles)
jda Norwalk, CA
#602
Tuesday Feb 3
having a senior moment?
You posted the same
Post twice within avfew hours.
Meanwhile, can you answer the merits?
(smile)
Mr. Kirlikovali,
By your own words and admissions contained here and in the OC Weekly, for all to see, you have a history of making racist statements not only about Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians, but also about Mexicans.
And now it seems that Mexican and Hispanic people in California are catching on to you. Your exploits have been posted to Hispanic websites by Hispanic writers. Go ahead and google your name to see what goes on.
I recommend you apologize to your California commmunity for the racial offenses you have given: for example comparing the Armenian dead of 1915 to dead flies (Pasadena Star News post 173), criticizing a Mexican American journalist by saying he should not do things as they are done in Tiujuana,
and repeatedly callling him “speedy gonzalez”, even after he and others told you this was a racist caricature.
Amazingly you have posted scores of messages saying that even uttering the words “Armenian Genocide” is a racist assault on you. So, as an immigrant to the United States, it saeems you have learned to scream ” I am a victim”: and “racism” as well as anyone.
where is the evidence of threats - not rhetoric - against Lang by Armenians?
Ergun Kirlikovali Irvine, CA #605 Wednesday Feb 4
The rat in ararat is detective Cluseau now... (smiles)
jda San Francisco, CA #606 Wednesday Feb 4
Here's a small but significant fact, again implicating CUP in Genocide, from Morgenthau's memoir. Even if you claim Morgenthau was somehow both biased and willing to disgrace himself by filing false reports with the United States, there is no way even a biased Ambassador could have dreamed up Talaat's famous demand for policy information, thereby admitting thathe knew the Armenans were all dead, and without heirs:
"Morgenthau discloses his conversations with Ottoman leaders, such as Talaat Pasha (Minister of Interior), Enver Pasha (Minister of War), and Hans Wangenheim (German Ambassador). He relates how once Talaat Pasha even admitted in private, "No Armenian can be our friend after what we have done to them."
On another occasion Talaat Pasha asked for a list of Armenian insurance-policy holders in American life insurance companies so that the Ottoman government could cash in their policies. Talaat reassured the American ambassador that the Armenians in question were "practically all dead" and had no heirs to collect the money.
Sarafian notes that "such disclosures can be corroborated as a matter of record. The Ottoman government did approach foreign insurance companies and requested such lists of Armenian policy holders—and these were for communities which were destroyed the previous summer."
Smile all you want, Ergun.
Anti-Semitism: The Most Widespread Form Of Racism In Turkey
By Ayse Gunaysu
“Hitler was right! Jews are the same in every country. They cannot be human.”
“Bloody dogs, get the hell out of our country and Palestine.”
“Wish our ancestors had never brought you here from Spain.”[i]
These words were written on banners throughout public demonstrations in Turkey last month against Israeli operations in Gaza (see the daily newspaper Radikal, Jan. 17, 2009).
Was there any strong reaction from the civil society? Any legal investigion? No, not at all, except for very marginal and therefore uninfluential protests from small groups or a number of mainstream columnists. There was no strong, collective, widespread reaction to such open and outrageous displays of anti-Semitism, such unreserved manifestations of hate. Only very recently and, in fact, very belatedly, did President Abdullah Gul and some other top-level government officials feel the need to denounce manifestations of anti-Semitism, especially after calls from representatives of the Turkish Jewish community.
When condemning Israeli military operations and the civilian deaths in Gaza, the radical Islamic press repeatedly uses the words “Jew” and “Jewish” as a substitute for Israel or the Israeli government. The result is the condemnation of Jews, not the state of Israel. There are widspread calls on the internet and in some of the radical Islamic press to boycott “Jewish” goods. Forums and e-groups on the internet are openly provoking anti-Jewish actions.
At a time when Israel’s actions in Gaza unleashed unprecedented hatred towards everything reminiscent of Israel (an entity seen as the representative of all Jews in the world), the Israeli Consulate in Istanbul was under a 16-day siege. A leader addressing the crowd there called Jewish community leaders in the U.S.“not even human” when they wrote a letter to the Turkish Prime Minister criticizing the surge of anti-Semitism in Turkey.
The daily “Anadolu'da Vakit” has repeatedly and insistently urged the Chief Rabbinate of Turkey and the Turkish Jewish community to publicly condemn Israel, openly holding all the Jews responsible for what Israel does. Many consider this daily newspaper a marginal medium, but all know that its prominent columnists are among a handful of journalists who enjoy the privilege of travelling with the Turkish Prime Minister during his flights;.besides, its circulation figures are higher than Turkey's prestigious left-wing newspaper Radikal. The view that the daily is “marginal,” therefore, is no excuse for overlooking its obvious hate crime.
Anti-Semitism is the most widespread form of racism in Turkey. Yes, the most widespread, because the ordinary, everyday form of anti-Semitism is considered so normal that people don’t even notice that it exists. I say “ordinary” and “everyday” anti-Semitism because there are roughly two kinds of anti-Semitism in Turkey (I can’t speak for other countries); the other kind is a very conscious, very deliberate and militant anti-Semitism practiced by radical Islamists in the absence of any public awareness or education against anti-Semitism.
Yet, the everyday anti-Semitism among the Turkish left is the most disappointing and most alarming, as the backwardness of the left in any area reflects the extent of backwardness in general.
Ergun Kirlikovali Irvine, CA #608 Wednesday
oops, the rat in ararat is a historian now... (smiles)
jda San Mateo, CA #609
Mr. Kirlikovali,
Your retreat into infantalism is manifest.
infants are known for smiling for no known reason. And you lack any reason to smile.
In the meantime, I urge you to study the growing notoriety your racism against Hispanics [not to mention Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians and Kurds] is causing. Contrary to your beliefs, El Mexicano and the moderator Mr Jaramillo [not to mention the Mexican American journalist Mr Arellano]are really who they say they are. And they are monitoring your posts.
In your own hand, with your own words, you have built a catalogue of racism that will be available anytime a journalist you buttonhole looks you up. Or perhaps someone working for you or related to someone who has or is working for you. Not a threat - just a prediction. Hispanics are as computer savvy as anyone.
Keep smiling.
oops, the rat in ararat is a a child psychologist now... (smiles)
Jda Norwalk, CA #611 Thursday
according to today's Turkish press, Ergenekon conspirators maintain a number of racist Turkish sites.
Mr Kirkikovali, I have not visited these sites, and do not know if they publish you.
Do you condemn Ergenekon conspirators?
Ergun Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA #612
Wow, the rat in ararat reads international press now... (smiles)
jda San Francisco, CA #613
keep smiling. I have a lot more to say, and your racist posts will pop up whenever anyone googles your name, or your alter egos
Ergun Kirlikovali Irvine, CA
#614
Ooops, the rat in ararat is angry and upset now... (smiles)
jda
San Francisco, CA
#615
Mr. Kirlikovali,
Please tell us which facts asserted in this passage from a Kurdish site are not correct:
"The Turkish state was established on a racist foundation both ideologically and with respect to its educational system. The implementation of this groundwork was begun by the states founder Mustafa Kemal (Atatürk).
Many of Atatürk's speeches and texts are racist in nature, including his motto "Happy is the man who can say: I am a Turk!" This motto is still inscribed above all school entrances in Turkey, especially in Kurdistan, and is even written in enormous letters on the hillsides. Another frequently quoted saying of Atatürk's is: "One Turk is worth as much as the whole rest of the world!"
Atatürk's famous "Legacy to Youth" begins: "O Turkish youth" and ends with the sentence: "The omnipotence that you need exists in the noble blood that flows in your veins!" The superiority of the Turkish race and the nobility of Turkish blood are frequently mentioned in Turkish literature and everyday discourse. For example, members of the left, the political opposition, etc. who advocate opinions different from the so-called "national" policy are often called "bloodless ones" or "people of degenerate blood".
For decades, pupils in all primary schools in the country have had to swear an oath, in chorus, every morning before their lessons begin. This oath begins: "I am a Turk, decent and industrious" and ends with the sentence, "My life is dedicated to Turkishness!"
In the primary and secondary schools, the schoolbooks are full of sentences and poems that are racist in nature. Poems of this kind are performed on radio and television as part of all national ceremonies. One of them begins: "I am a Turk, my religion and my race are sublime!"
Racist characteristics can be seen even in the Turkish national anthem, which speaks of "my victorious (heroic) race".
With unbelievable exaggeration, Turkish racism declares that the Turks are a superior race, while at the same time denigrating other peoples and representing them as enemies. When the Kurdish rebellion of Ararat was defeated in 1930, the Minister of Justice at that time, Mahmut Esat Bozkurt, said at a public rally concerning the rebellion: "This is a war between two races, and it is neither the first nor the last one." He continued: "We live in the freest land in the world, that is, in Turkey. The Turk is the sole ruler and owner of this country. Those who are not members of the pure Turkish race have merely the right to live as servants and slaves. Let this fact be known by both our friends and our enemies, even by the very mountains!" (quoted from the daily newspaper Milliyet, September 19, 1930)
The Prime Minister at the time, who was later to be Atatürk's successor and second President of Turkey, Ismet Inönü, said in a speech he gave to inaugurate a railroad line in Sivas province, referring to the Kurdish rebellion: "In this country, only the Turkish nation, and nobody else, has the right to claim ethnic and racial rights." (Milliyet, August 31, 1930)
Many more examples of this kind could be cited. "Scientific" investigations of the Turkish race were carried out on the personal orders of Mustafa Kemal. During the Third Reich, in which the National Socialists wielded power, instruments for measuring the human skull were brought in from Germany. Following directives from above, men who had received the title of Professor in short order were kept busy inventing a series of fictions concerning the typical characteristics of Turks, such as the color of the eyes, the shape of the skull, blood group, etc.
Ergun Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA
#616
How do you know the rat in ararat is lying?
Answer: His lips are moving.
How do you know the rat in ararat is falsifying?
Answers: His fingers are typing.
jda
San Francisco, CA
#617
Mr. Kirlikovali,
Your innovative jibes one side, is the Kurdish author factually correct?
Your repeated failures to join issue are tacit admissions you have nothing to say because there is nothing to rebut the claims he or she makes.
Ergun Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA
#618
The rat in ararat keeps probing...(smiles)
PS: I know a few experts on your malicious falsifications: Dr. Walter Murphy and Dr. Manukyan. Kindly consult them.(more smiles)
Ergun Kirlikovali
Trabuco Canyon, CA
#620
Part 121 of 999
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
If you stumbled upon this blog, you will realize how racist some Armenians are and how they cannot answer even the most basic questions regarding their genocide claims, because they know these questions refute their baseless allegations.
They will, instead, fill this column with racist filth, insults, slander, threats, and more falsification. Also, they will take any opportunity to derail this debate by turning it into a shouting match. So, I suggest we keep our cool and go back to our educational process of discussing facts.
Let’s leave Armenian propaganda to the AFATH (Armenian falsifiers and Turk haters) community. Let’s continue with the gradual dismantling of the 90+ years of bogus genocide, shall we?
Here are more of those questions and quotes you may wish to remind the next person who screams genocide in your face, unaware or in denial of massive Armenian hate crimes that led to their TERESET (temporary resettlement.)
319- RACISM OVERTLY PRACTICED BY THE ARMENIANS
…To #318 above, the editor added his own ingenious analysis as a footnote :
“The Turks of Turkey are basically of the most primitive and backward branch of the Mongolian race.... Of this blending of the primitive, the savage, the stupidly brutal and atavistic products is composed the Turk of today. The retention by him of his primordial traits is explained by the Mendelian Law,...”
Source: Cardashian, Vahan,”The Turks”; An Address delivered before The American Academy of Political and Social Science, in The Lausanne Treaty - Turkey and Armenia., The American Committee Opposed to the Lausanne Treaty, New York (1926), p 106
320- RACISM OVERTLY PRACTICED BY THE ARMENIANS
"…All Turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the Armenian nation…"
Source: Hamparsum Boyaciyan, a former Ottoman parliamentarian who led Armenian nationalist forces.
321- "…In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul..."
Source: Sahak Melkonian, Preserving the Armenian Purity, 1920.
322- "…We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the Turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination…."
Source: Ohanus Appressian, describing incidents in 1919; Memoirs of an Armenian officer, Men Are Like That, 1926.
323- RACISM OVERTLY PRACTICED BY THE ARMENIANS :
You can now understand what the Ottoman government was really up against: a bunch of vicious, racist, treasonous, well-armed, and well-motivated back stabbers who did not hesitate to kill unprotected women and children of Turkish villages -- as all the able bodied Turkish men were sent to many distant fronts to defend the country against the invaders.
Consequently, over half a million Muslims, mostly Turks, ruthlessly met their tragic end during the WWI at the hands of these Armenian nationalists.
324- Today, we witness the same kind of arrogant and racist attitude in the writings of many Armenians, their extensions in the media, and their recent inventions and new tools, the so-called genocide scholars. To these Armenian writers, the bona fide cases of genocide around the world do not exist; only the bogus genocide claims of the Armenians do.
They only pay a brief lip service to the genocides in Cambodia, Bosnia, and Rwanda, and devote the rest of their writings to the Armenian-Turkish civil war which they unfairly, incorrectly, but deliberately misrepresent as genocide. The Armenians also ignore the ethnic cleansing campaign they brutally wage in Azerbaijan as you read this lines.
325- RACISM OVERTLY PRACTICED BY THE ARMENIANS :
To Armenian falsifiers, Armenian armed uprisings and treason are not important. The facts that the Armenians had standing armies of 150,000 men and that they were belligerents are to be ignored. Also to be dismissed are the rights of the Turks to defend themselves and their country in face of foreign invasion supported by some disloyal citizens. Well, what's left?
326- How else can any one explain the tragic ending of the millennium of harmonious Turkish-Armenian cohabitation in Anatolia? If Armenians didn't take up arms against their own government, didn't side with the invading Russian armies, didn't massacre Turks, Kurds, Circassioan, Arabs, and Jews , didn't undermine the Ottoman war effort; they would still be in Anatolia today, like they have been for a millennium before 1915… It is that plain and simple…
327- RACISM OVERTLY PRACTICED BY THE ARMENIANS :
As the prominent historian, Justin McCarthy once said, any civil war, including the American civil war, can be made to look like a genocide if one ignores the other side. Armenians always dismiss their own terrorism, armed uprisings, atrocities, betrayals, and treason; misrepresent wartime measures taken by Turks in self defense; exaggerate Armenian suffering and losses; and totally ignore the Turkish suffering and losses many times larger than the Armenians'.
328- How long can this ethocidal Armenian campaign continue to depict the vicious Armenian terrorists and nationalists in the Ottoman-Armenian community as "poor, starving Armenians"? How can "poor, starving Armenians" raise a standing army of 150,000 men, slaughtering defenseless Turkish women and children in Eastern Anatolia and elsewhere?
Legend:
AAG = The alleged Armenian genocide
AFATH = Armenian Falsifiers and Turk Haters
WWI = The First World War
Ethocide = Systematic extermination of ethics via malicious mass deception for political, economic, social, and/or moral benefits
Ergun Kirlikovali Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
Part 127 of 999
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
At a time when the United States is fighting a global war on terrorism, Armenian support for Armenian terrorism is reprehensible. American taxpayers and voters must be made aware that Armenian terrorism works against the American interests. It is the wrong message to send to the world saying:“My terrorist is better than your terrorist.�
For instance, the U.S. bombed Serbia to punish Serbians for ethnic cleansing; occupied Iraq to punish Saddam for aggression into Kuwait and then again for supporting terrorism. But when Armenia committed all three of those crimes, namely aggression and ethnic cleansing of Azerbaijanis in Hocali, Karabag, and Western Azerbaijan, and promoted Armenian terrorism against Turkish diplomats, what did the United States do?
Bomb Armenia?
Far from it.
The U.S. provided financial aid to Armenia! This blaring double standard, engineered by Armenian falsifiers and lobbyists via a few unscrupulous politicians, must be reviewed, understood, and rescinded.
Armenian terrorism in United States claimed at least four lives (Los Angeles, Boston, and Santa Barbara) and more than a hundred bombings (one such case reported in Disneyland, the happiest place on earth.) No Armenian leader to date apologized to Americans for bringing Armenian terror and destruction on American soil.
Ergun Kirlikovali
Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides
www.turkla.com
Keywords (or tags) for google searches: Ethocide, Tereset, Armenian Falsifications, Armenian Terrorism, Armenian Treason, Armenian Misrepresentations, Armenian Rebellions, rat in ararat, pinocchian, j, jd, jda, manukyan, pierre
Ergun Kirlikovali
Trabuco Canyon, CA
#626
Part 128 of 999
Dear open-minded truth-seekers,
Armenian genocide allegations are based on a racist and dishoneswt history.
Racist because it selectively focuses on one side's suffering, ignoring the other's.
Dishonest because it dismisses Armenian terrorism, raids, rebellions, treason, territorial demands, and Turkish losses because of these, all of which culminated in the TERESET (temporary resettlement) of 1915. Ignoring half the story in order to justify the political judgment of genocide is cruel, incorrect, unethical, unAmerican, and inhuman.
Ignoring half the story is also ethocidal (*).
----
(*) Ethocide: Systematic extrermination of ethics via malicious mass deception for political, personal, or other gain.
Ergun Kirlikovali
Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides
Ethocide, Tereset, Armenian Falsifications, Armenian Terrorism, Armenian Treason, Armenian Misrepresentations, Armenian Rebellions, rat in ararat, pinocchian, j, jd, jda, manukyan, pierre, hasan, burcu, el mexicano
jda
San Mateo, CA
#627
Confirmation of the Kurdish selection
Mr.Kirlikovali,
While you spew racism and ahistoric nonsense, here is what a disinterested columnist wrote about the racism of the Turkish school system, as revealed by a Turkish Human Rights report:
Human rights in school books
President Abdullah Gül, on his visit to Saudi Arabia, denounced Islamophobia and the belief, more widespread in the West since Sept. 11, that there is a direct link between Islam and terrorism.
His remarks coincided with the first anniversary of the tragic Ludwigshafen arson attack in Germany, in which nine members of a Turkish family died.
In Turkey too, racism and anti-Semitism have been much discussed in recent weeks. Keeping prejudice at bay requires constant vigilance in any society, particularly in periods of political upheaval or economic downturn.
The best weapon against intolerance remains education, which can create solid foundations for a tolerant society, respectful of diversity. But to achieve this result the curriculum has to be carefully balanced. Promoting the right values is particularly important during the crucial formative years when children are in primary school.
So how successful is Turkey's education system in promoting democratic values of tolerance and respect for diversity? Not very, according to a recent report on human rights in school books published jointly by Turkey's History Foundation and the Turkish Human Rights Foundation (TİHV).
Researchers spent 18 months scanning primary and secondary school manuals, as well as interviewing pupils and teachers to find out how well human rights principles were promoted in class. The report compares results with a similar screening that took place in 2002-2004, before school curricula were amended.
While some progress was recorded in the intervening period, only 11 of the 139 school books examined, a mere 8 percent, are deemed adequate. The content of all the other manuals is found to contain mistakes or deliberate distortions, while some sensitive issues are simply overlooked. School books, the report suggests, neither adequately foster a democratic culture nor support secularism.
Critical thinking is a dimension sorely lacking, the study finds. This fact had also been noted by the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) in its Youth Report last year. An excessive emphasis in school books on "national values," shown to be specific to Turks, is promoting an "us" and "them" mentality, and implying that other cultures are inferior. Manuals also reinforce traditional gender roles, which become internalized at a young age, through their use of language and the examples of social roles they supply, the report states.
Non-Muslim minorities and ethnic minorities in Anatolia barely figure in school books or are mentioned in terms suggesting they are not an intrinsic and valuable part of the social fabric of this country.
As we have witnessed in recent months, the notion that non-Muslim minorities are merely "guests" or even undesirable aliens can even find its way into politicians' statements. This belief, taken to its extreme, can be linked to the murder of Hrant Dink, of Christian missionaries in Malatya and of a Catholic priest in Trabzon, and therefore needs to be nipped in the bud when children are still young.
jda
San Mateo, CA
#628
The book used to teach religious culture and ethics was found to be particularly contentious. The researchers complain that religious education focuses on Sunni Islam to the exclusion of other faiths. "Moral values" are depicted as being linked to religion, thus overlooking philosophical and humanistic dimensions, while creationism is taught as a science in biology classes.
Among numerous suggestions, the report advocates "de-militarizing" the school curriculum and scrapping national security classes. Recommending closer cooperation between authorities and civil society to promote respect for diversity and dialogue, the researchers advise the government to introduce peace education classes, to teach a culture of debate and conflict resolution techniques. In a society prone to polarization, this would be a good first step to prevent social tension in the future.
06 February 2009, Friday
Ergun Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA
#629
The rat in ararat is a human rights expert now...(smiles)
PS: Would someone ask this lying rat what happened to the Turkish and Azeri majority in Armenian until 1820s? Or if there is any mosque left standing in Armenia today? Don't expect to get an answer from this tricky Armenian though...(more smiles)
Ergun Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA #630
Part 129 of 999
329- ARMENIAN TERRORISM: THEN AND NOW
My "refutation series" today touches upon a 150-year old bleeding wound: the Armenian terrorism. Even the partial documentation below proves beyond a shadow of doubt that there was significant Armenian terrorism before the WWI. Once the dimensions and depth of Armenian terrorism is established, it will be clear to any fair-minded reader, that the measures taken by the Ottoman government to eliminate armed political violence and organized crime among Ottoman-Armenians for the safety and welfare of all Ottoman citizens and the security and survival of the Ottoman state can hardly be considered a genocide.
330- Organized violence by the Armenian nationalists date back to 1880s ( if even earlier cases are set aside as armed rebellions and/or civil unrest). Armenian nationalists used propaganda, agitation, and terror, in that order, for more than 25 years prior to 1915, to foment hostilities between the Muslims and Christians of Anatolia.
331- According to American sources (see archives below,) the plan set in motion by the Armenian nationalists was to attack remote, defenseless Turkish villages and kill Muslims indiscriminately. This, they hoped and planned, would provoke massive and brutal retaliations by Turks and trigger European intervention under the pretext of “protecting the Ottoman-Christians”. Once the European powers put an end to the Ottoman sovereignty in Eastern Anatolia, a greater Armenian state would be created in its place.
Ergun Kirlikovali
Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides
www.turkla.com
Keywords (or tags) for google searches:
Ethocide, Tereset, Armenian Falsifications, Armenian Terrorism, Armenian Treason, Armenian Misrepresentations, Armenian Rebellions
Other keywords:
j, jd, jda, manukyan, pierre, hasan, burcu, el mexicano, Charles Webster, Gary, Hijinks, Mr. Beemer, Pasadena Resident, Avo, California Resident, Bob, Raffi, the rat in ararat, pinocchian
(still more to come; all of these names belong to the same Armenian falsifier: the rat in ararat a.k.a pinocchian )
332- ARMENIAN TERRORISM: THEN AND NOW
The Armenian nationalists resorted to this underhanded and bloody plan, because they knew the Armenian did not have the numbers or the means to create a greater Armenian by themselves – as Balkan Christians were able to do. The latter formed majority where they lived (the Greeks, the Bulgarians, the Serbians, etc.), whereas Armenian were scattered over an area larger than the Balkans and were never more than a third of the population where they lived. In most places, Armenians made up only 5-20 percent of the population. Even the racist King Crane report right after the WWI made it clear that an Armenian state was not viable and that even if all the Armenian around the world decoded to move to Eastern Anatolia, they would not make up half the population.
333- All this boils down to the fact that establishing a greater Armenia in eastern Anatolia, like the U.S. president Wilson was naively led to believe and support, would be nothing more than the creation of the first apartheid regime in the world, by invading (or non-resident) powers, resulting in rule of a massive Muslim majority by a tiny Christian minority. That is why the British, the French, the Russians, and later, the Americans kept the Armenian aspirations at arm’s length, paying only lip service for as long as Armenian services were needed for the allied causes and did not require much investment in terms of allied man and material.
Ergun Kirlikovali
Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides
www.turkla.com
Keywords (or tags) for google searches:
Ethocide, Tereset, Armenian Falsifications, Armenian Terrorism, Armenian Treason, Armenian Misrepresentations, Armenian Rebellions
Other keywords: j, jd, jda, manukyan, pierre, hasan, burcu, el mexicano, Charles Webster, Gary, Hijinks, Mr. Beemer, Pasadena Resident, Avo, California Resident, Bob, Raffi,(more to come; all of these names belong to the same Armenian falsifier: the rat in ararat a.k.a pinocchian )
334- ARMENIAN TERRORISM: THEN AND NOW
Now let’s fast forward to the present time. Since 1973, more than 70 Turkish diplomats, their family members, and/or bystanders were indiscriminately killed by the organized Armenian terrors groups, such as ASALA, JCAG, ARA, and others. Below, please find a chronological rundown of Armenian atrocities and terrorism around the world.
335- As you can see from this brief introduction, the Armenians’ reliance on terrorism is not a new phenomenon that surfaced in the last 30 years. It has a well documented history of about 150 years, with periods of intensity (1890-1915 and 1973-2005) and inactivity. As Prof. Lowry clearly demonstarted, there is a “thread of continuity” between early Armenian terrorists of 1882-1921 (1915 being only a single stop in otherwise a long and painful journey) and the current crop of Armenian terrorists, in terms of motivation, propaganda, agitation, modes of operation, and aims.
336- Legend: AAG = The alleged Armenian genocide; AFATH = Armenian Falsifiers and Turk Haters; WWI = The First World War
Part 131 of 999
337- ARMENIAN TERRORISM BEFORE, DURING, AND RIGHT AFTER WWI
"…The Armenians incited confusions and committed terrorist acts.(...) Excitement and terror were necessary to raise the spirit of the people. The party was aiming at terrorizing the Ottoman government, thus contributing to reduce the prestige of this regime while working for its total destruction. Hentchaks wanted to eliminate all the Turkish and Armenian personalities working for the government, as well as all the spies and the informants. To allow them to realize all these terrorist actions, the party organized a specific branch completely devoted to the execution of acts of terrorism. The most convenient moment to start the general rebellion which would allow implementation of immediate objectives was the engagement of Turkey in war..."
Source: Louise Nalbandian, The Armenian Revolutionary Movement: The development of Armenian Political Parties Through the Nineteenth Century", Berkeley, Los Angeles, University of California Press, 1963
Keywords (or tags) for google searches:
Ethocide, Tereset, Armenian Falsifications, Armenian Terrorism, Armenian Treason, Armenian Misrepresentations, Armenian Rebellions
Other keywords: j, jd, jda, manukyan, pierre, hasan, burcu, el mexicano, Charles Webster, Gary, Hijinks, Mr. Beemer, Pasadena Resident, Avo, California Resident, Bob, Raffi,(more to come; all of these names belong to the same Armenian falsifier: the rat in ararat a.k.a pinocchian )
jda
San Francisco, CA
#634
Actually, there is a beautiful Mosque in downtown Yerevan, you can start there. It is called the Blue Mosque. Services were held there today.
If you are complaining about the demolition of Mosques in the 1820's , of which I know nothing, address your concerns to the Russian Imperial state, which ran the place. By contrast, your pseudo Azeri cousins in the Naxichevan enclave destroyed 14,000 Armenian inscribed grave markers over the past five years, some 1,000 years old, as a part of a Turanic effort to destroy all traces of Armenian culture everywhere. Read Ara Sarafian's narriative about his visit to Turkish museums in Ankara and Eastern Anatolia in TF. The Museums say nothing of Armenians.
I think you're just about out of material. You saluted Jack Lang for reversing his position on the Denial law. I agree that everywhere, including France, Turkey and Switzerland, free speech, even your brand of racist speech should be allowed...and answered.
Lang was quoted today as saying that while he disfavors the denial law he once championed, he
will work for international and Turkish recognition of the Genocide.
Ergun Kirlikovali
Irvine, CA
#635
Part 132 of 999
338- ARMENIAN TERRORISM BEFORE, DURING, AND RIGHT AFTER WWI
“…. As for the tactics of the revolutionaries, anything more fiendish one could not imagine - The assassination of Moslems in order to bring about the punishment of innocent men, the midnight extortion of money from villages which have just paid their taxes by day, the murder of persons who refuse to contribute to their collection boxes, are only some of the crimes of which Moslems, Catholics and Gregorians accuse them with no uncertain voice.
The Armenian revolutionaries prefer to plunder their co-religionists to giving battle to their enemies; the anarchists of Constantinople throw bombs with the intention of provoking a massacre of their fellow-countrymen. If the object of English philanthropists and the roving brigands (who are the active agents of revolution) is to subject the bulk of eastern provinces to the tender mercies of an Armenian oligarchy, then I cannot entirely condemn the fanatic outbreaks of the Moslems or the repressive measures of the Turkish Government.
On the other hand, if the object of the Armenians is to secure equality before law and the maintenance of security and peace in the countries partly inhabited by Armenians, then I can only say that their methods are not those calculated to achieve success…“
Source: Sir Mark Sykes, The Caliph's Last Heritage, London 1915, p 409.
Ergun Kirlikovali Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides www.turkla.com
Keywords (or tags) for google searches:
Ethocide, Tereset, Armenian Falsifications, Armenian Terrorism, Armenian Treason, Armenian Misrepresentations, Armenian Rebellions
Other keywords:
j, jd, jda, manukyan, pierre, hasan, burcu, el mexicano, Charles Webster, Gary, Hijinks, Mr. Beemer, Pasadena Resident, Avo, California Resident, Bob, Raffi,(more to come; all of these names belong to the same Armenian falsifier: the rat in ararat a.k.a pinocchian )
jda
San Francisco, CA
#636
“I will work for international recognition of the Armenian Genocide, specifically by Turkey,”[Lang] said.
jda
San Francisco, CA
#637
Kirlikovali,
One of the reasons Lang will work for Turkish and international recognition of the Genocide is the idiotic and untruthful posts written by you and the other Turkish Nazis both about Armenians as 'backstabbers" and "traitors", and your knowingly false representations that he disagreed with the Genocide thesis. Lang, as a French Jew, has sensitivity to the Nazi language and lies you toss around.
Good work.
Keep selling resin.
You see, we followed your advice and sent Lang what you had written. It got to him in Japan.
Your lies have consequences.
How will you explain this to Grey Wolf central?
Ergun Kirlikovali, Irvine, CA, #639
Uh-oh! the rat in ararat is really upset now...(smiles)
http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/ci_10851821
www.topix.com/forum/history/TI08Q3OTUP9RS3N19/p32
1 comments:
Dear Sir,
In reference to your below article, I present attached my three essays "Genocide Lies, Need No Archives" which are self-explanatory and documentary.
http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2008/10/2635-genocide-lies-need-no-archives.html
For more details you may refer to my other articles or my book "The Genocide of Truth" which is available for your reading in the "free-E Book library" of the same blogsite (TurkishArmenians). I will be much obliged if you can contradict or belie "any of the excerpts and references" I have used. My book is not on sale, since it is an individual effort to discover the truth amongst a multitude of distortions and fabrications. If you have serious interest in the subject and have the courage to fight for truth finding, I will be pleased to mail you my complimentary signed copy.
If you cannot read the whole 702 pages, you can at least read above ten pages and chapters 29 and 30 of my book, telling you the real cause of this money swindling. Few decent and truth-seeking Armenians from Turkey, living abroad, are trying to inform the whole world, by showing the other side of the same coin.
Yours cordially,
Sukru Server Aya - Istanbul, Nov.1,2008
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