179) Head-to-Head with a Rational Armenian

  
VIEWS OF A RATIONAL ARMENIAN 

 

It’s one thing to consider the evidence of Armenian web sites, where the same hogwash is repeated over and over... the validity of the Sevres Treaty, the incriminating pronouncements of the Allied-controlled Turkish kangaroo courts, the forged Andonian documents and telegrams, the fake and/or undocumented pictures, biased testimonies from missionaries and racist Turcophobes like Ambassador Morgenthau, the repetition as fact of wartime propaganda perpetuated by the likes of the British Blue Book, historians like Arnold Toynbee (in his early period), or coverage in prestigious but prejudiced newspapers like The New York Times... not to mention what unethically biased Armenian historians have to say, and the unverifiable hearsay of Armenian oral history. None of these web sites address the damning evidence against them, at the head of which is the outcome of the Malta Tribunal; none utter a peep about the Armenians’ murderous ethnic cleansing of their non-Christian countrymen, which ironically followed the lines of a real genocide. (Any occasional violence on their helpless and innocent part is usually explained as “self-defense.�) Perhaps Armenians feel they can afford to bypass the inconsistencies of their claims simply because there is a wealth of support by those whose eyes the wool has been successfully pulled over, along with the cumulative effect of their expertly constructed Big Lie. Armenians have learned the value of repeating their “misstatements�... anything goes, as long as the unwary can be persuaded to offer their sympathy, and join the cause. (That is, “Con Job.�)

 

Aware as I am of the agenda of these Armenian web sites, I do peruse them now and then... just curious to see whether there really is any evidence that can form doubt in my mind. Naturally, I am angry at the systematic campaign Turk-hating groups have been involved in for the longest time, aware as I am of the unfairness of these efforts... since the Western audiences have been so conditioned to be friendly to their cause, and few of them will bother to ask questions; everybody knows how barbaric the Turks were, and how innocent and helpless were the Armenians they subjugated. Regardless, loyalty to my ethnic tribe has limits; truth and honesty supersede all. So even though I am very much aware of Armenian/Greek shenanigans, if I encounter actual evidence that runs contrary to my beliefs (and my beliefs include the knowledge the Turks were not always angels), I would definitely deal with it, and maintain an open mind. This is why in this web site, you will not just find a wealth of impartial sources that turn the Armenian claims on their collective ear; you will also find my having provided the best of what the Armenians have to dish out. If you poke around this extensive site enough, you’ll find I am not hiding anything.

 

This is why I’m especially interested in the kind of “proof� individual Armenians who are decent human beings have to offer. Once in a while, some of these Armenians can be found out there, trying to make sense of what is being told, not out to deliberately spread lies, and not necessarily part of the “genocide.com� monolith. These can occasionally be found in the guestbooks or forums of web sites that deal with the subject matter.

 

Now, the bulk of Armenians are beyond hope. Their hatred is too inbred in them, and nothing is going to make them change their minds... the “Genocide� is too monumental a reason for their being Armenian. Here are some typical entries found in the first few pages of the “armenianreality.com� guestbook:

 

 

 

im going to have a trip to turkey and pimp all those turkish @#%$! im even going to @#%$! every single @#%$! and leave them a kid made by an armenian guy dont worry girls its not a choicr im even going to rape little turkish @#%$! — play boy, 3-26-01

 

...French government just recognized the ARMENIAN GENOCIDE...CANADA is next cocksuckers. Oh yeah btw what were you talking there about a jewsih holocauts ??? huh ??? that's a load of @#%$! ...i bet jews massacred poor German SS soldiers without mercy and then put the blame on them. @#%$! you all. ARMENIAN POWER. — Jean Guy; Homepage Title: burnturkishwomenalive.com

 

You sick mother @#%$! turks. I wish all of this that you wrote here was true. I wish we really massacared you all so that your entire @#%$! nation wouldn't exist any more. — 3-29-01

 

 

 

Does this mean Turks can’t be racist in their entries? Sure they can... but it usually does not stem from their hating Armenians. They hate the mentality of this typical Armenian, and when they are exposed to this sort of irrational, unfair, sometimes psychotic attitude it’s not difficult to lose one’s temper. Not every Turk can hold to the high road... because contrary to what most Armenians and other Turcophobes have allowed themselves to believe (and would like you to believe), Turks are human, too! Once again.... Armenians and Greeks act... and Turks react.

 

However, there was an Armenian in the pages of this guestbook who was a “good guy.� A reasonable human being who is not choked in the juices of hatred. He is convinced in the justness of his cause, not because he believes Turks are the anti-Christ, but because he has been told a version of history all his life that he has no reason to question. All the sources he has come across (or chose to have come across) overwhelmingly have reinforced the truth of his convictions.

 

“Chose to have come across� is an essential point; the tragedy is, Aram... who even tells the “mad-dog� Armenians to watch themselves as far as their foul language & sentiments in the guestbook, shedding light on his fairness and humanity... becomes frustrated by the last of his posts that I've read (I only read around a tenth of the guestbook, but it sounds like he was getting near the end of his contributions), and starts cursing out the web site. The entire web site, to his mind, is a pack of lies! He makes no reference to any of the points of the web site, preferring to dismiss the entire endeavor as being mired in dishonesty — EVEN THOUGH THERE ARE AMPLE SAMPLES OF SOURCES AND MANY “HARD FACTS� OF NON-TURKISH ORIGIN. I doubt he could stand reading more than a couple of the site’s pages. It would be like the Reverend Jerry Falwell reading the Koran, or Osama Bin Laden reading the Bible... with an open mind.

 

So deeply ingrained is his belief system, that even this intelligent and reasonable human of Armenian origin (Aram’s an “ian� of another kind: Canadian) cannot bear to weigh the testimony of the opposing viewpoint. Instead, he dwells on all that he has been told, and refers to it as the Gospel truth. If sheer dogma is the way of such a fair and “enlightened� Armenian, is it any wonder the average Armenian lends himself to dreams of tearing Turks limb from limb?

 

Let us examine the snippets of what he presents, to prove the case of the Armenian “Genocide.� (Please bear in mind I'm only offering excerpts... since there is a lot; I have chosen the meatier selections, for the most part. If you're interested in what Aram has to say, visit the armenianreality.com guestbook, and direct yourself to Message #1 on.)

 

  "Armenians... were quickly demonized and blamed for Turkey's misfortunes. They were eventually perceived as Turkey's main enemy"

 

 

Comments: Hello. I must admit, I'm not very surprised that you have devoted a website at what you consider to be the truth, but must offer my dissent. I don't feel like getting into a fruitless argument about the difference between your reality and mine, but I would urge you to study your history a bit more than you have before jumping the gun. Nevertheless, I am not here to give you a lecture, just to offer some knowledge, and perhaps establish some form of dialogue.

 

I wrote the following letter to someone who had written to the Turkish Daily News Online, and believe it may offer some historical insights, or at least what I and many, many genocide scholars believe Mr. Hatch believed the Turkish Government should do something to counter the great marketing strategy of the Armenian Lobby. I will include his letter to the editor at the end as well.

 

Holdwater says: What a good guy! Aram, you are a refreshing Armenian.

 

Nevertheless, there were some events in the late nineteenth and beginning of this century that culminated in Armenians being slated for destruction, which I would like to summarize for you. Having benefitted greatly from advances in the Ottoman empire in pre-19th century, Armenians flourished culturally and intellectually. All of this came to an end with economic hardships and the rise of extreme nationalism in Turkey, beginning with the reign of Sultan Abdul Hamid in 1876. Armenians, who were quite affluent and doing comparatively well in the Empire, were quickly demonized and blamed for Turkey's misfortunes. They were eventually perceived as Turkey's main enemy, an excuse for the ills suffered by the Ottoman Empire. Hamid initiated massacres of these "infidels," the Armenian minority, in 1894-1896, resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands. Armenians were living a precarious existance, often being subjected to killings and massacres.

 

I like the fact that Aram concedes Armenians flourished in the Ottoman Empire... many Armenians can't bring themselves to admit even that, preferring to paint a picture that they were mostly oppressed under the brutal hand of the Turks.

 

Feelings of nationalism did not begin in earnest for ordinary Turks until the 20th Century... culminating finally when they realized all was going to be taken away from them, with the War of Independence. Let's see now.... Aram believes the Turks got so frustrated with the crumbling of their once-great empire, they decided to vent their fury with the poor, helpless Armenians.

 

Does that make sense? Here are the Armenians, known as the loyal citizens for centuries... both Armenians and Turks recognized few differences between each other, loving each other as their fellow citizens for the most part.... and suddenly, in a jealous hissy fit, the Turks decided to take up their frustrations with the poor Armenians.

 

The fact of the matter is, Armenian leaders were getting encouraged by the enemies of the Ottoman Empire... Czarist Russia and the British Empire... and they were also emboldened by how other peoples within the empire were gaining their independence, like the Greeks and the Serbs. Do the words "Hunchak" and "Dashnak" ring a bell, anyone? Here, let's have some Armenian historians serve as reminders. These revolutionaries' intention was to terrorize the government and the people (often other Armenians), and stir up the pot. Reports of massacres were greatly exaggerated ("hundreds of thousands" of massacred Armenians during 1894-1896?? Sez who? That is, sez which who who is impartial?), as "these revolts and riots were presented by the Armenian revolutionary societies in Europe and America as the killing of Armenians by Turks, stirring up considerable emotion among Christian peoples."

 

"The aim of the Armenian revolutionaries is to stir disturbances, to get the Ottomans to react to violence, and thus get the foreign powers to intervene."

 

So wrote Sir Philip Currie, the British Ambassador in Istanbul, 28 March 1894 (British Blue Book, Nr.6 1894, p.57). Similar conclusions can be found by British from the period in the Quotes page. The rarity of a relatively unbiased missionary (at least for the writing of this report... this missionary was still very biased), Dr. Cyrus Hamlin, sheds similar light in an 1897 American magazine article.

 

Just as in the 1915 period of the "Genocide," Armenians make sure to apply the representation of Armenians as poor, innocent bystanders in the mid-to-late 19th Century. Were there massacres? No doubt there were episodes of control being lost and people going nuts... but Armenian leaders who were arrested don't qualify; they were being punished for treachery (don't forget who Fired the First Shot), par for the course for any nation. (Who else would have had the power to lead the Armenians, but their established elite who had money behind them? Of course, some of these wealthy were forced into compliance, as a major target of Armenian terrorists were Armenians, themselves. Some of these wealthy Armenians were unfortunately caught between the proverbial rock and a hard place. However, let's keep in mind not all those arrested were executed... and if anyone claims that, ask them for bonafide proof.) (HAH! "Bonafide proof"... dream on, if you think you can get such a thing from the Armenians.)

 

I subsequently got into the area of the massacres duing the 1880s when I addressed points put forward by Dr. Papazian. Aram might well have taken his information from the good Armenian professor, as Dr. Papazian also uses the "exact" "hundreds of thousands" figure.
"All adult males were killed on the spot" 

 

 A plan was hatched to forcibly deport all Armenians from the Eastern part of Turkey. All the Armenians in the Turkish military were stripped of their arms and slaughtered in February 1915.

 

That's funny. I keep hearing tell of Armenian soldiers being assigned to do manual labor (and being "worked as animals") by Armenian historians. That would have been much wiser for the evil Turks, to get some slave labor, instead of slaughtering ALL of the soldiers.

 

I wonder how many of these soldiers were left, anyway. Almost all of them deserted, to fight the Ottoman forces from the back... while the Turks were desperately trying to hold off the Russians from the front. Even the anti-Turkish New  York Times reported "TURKISH ARMENIANS IN ARMED REVOLT... We’re Ready to Join Russian Invaders." Says here the Armenians refused to even join the army of their nation, and "Armenian students have shown themselves ready to join the invading army, explaining that they had prepared themselves for the Russian approach by constant drilling and by gathering arms secretly." (Hmmmm.... poor, innocent Armenians.) "Armenian peasants are receiving the Russian troops with enthusiasm and giving provisions to them freely."

 

"In Feltun the number of insurgents is said to exceed 20,000 and they are reported to have defeated all the Turkish troops sent against them, causing heavy losses to the Turks." Yep, these Armenian soldiers had to come from SOMEWHERE (and not all of them from Russia).... just like Boghos Nubar Pasha claimed in his letter to The Times of London... there were 200,000 Armenians, taking up arms against the Turks. Could it be that not ALL of them would have been "slaughtered"?

 

Not incidentally, the date of this article is November 7, 1914... before the relocation order that would take place of necessity the following year. Yet, Armenian historians like Richard Hovannisian insist (with a straight face) any violence perpetrated by the Armenians took place in self defense, responding to the forced relocation.

 

For further details, visit the Ottoman-Armenian Troops page. You'll get a better idea of what happened to some 50,000 of these men... once they sided with the invading Russian enemy, you can bet they were doing more massacring than getting massacred.

 

On April 24th of the same year, hundreds of Armenian Intellectuals were rounded up and mostly killed or imprisoned.

 

Were they killed or imprisoned because they were poor, innocent intellectuals, or maybe..... hmmmm.... could they have been leading the betrayal of their nation?

 

The forced deportations of all Armenians ensued. All adult males were killed on the spot. 
 

 

All these adult males were killed on the spot, three years earlier.

 

     Wow. ALL adult males were shot on the spot. Amazing. 

 

Here is a photo I came across in an Armenian web site, identified as: "Group of Armenian Genocide survivors with priest in courtyard of the Armenian Cathedral, Aleppo, late 1918.  Photo courtesy of Rev. Arten Ashjian, Yonkers, NY, and Project Save." How in the world did all of these well fed men wind up there, for heaven's sake? Didn't they have the sense to stay dead after they were "shot on the spot"?

 

Aside from what Armenians tell us, is there impartial evidence of any Armenian men being "shot on the spot" by Turkish soldiers, as a result of government policy? If there is, I sure haven't come across it... and I've been living and breathing in Armenian "genocide" sites for the past few months. You'd think there would have been some conscientious Turks who would have written memoirs of the horrors they were subjected to committing; some SS men who were brainwashed into anti-Semitism were wracked with guilt after helping to implement the "Final Solution." At least some simple peasant good-hearted Turks (who were not taught racism at schools via the Nazis, and who were drafted into the army... let us assume they were subsequently forced into becoming government-sponsored murderers) wouldn't have been able to 'hold it in," once the smoke cleared. Armenians are not known to break off from the one-willed monolith their people amazingly are, but even an Armenian wrote his killing memoirs when the Armenians were bent on implementing their version of the Final Solution against Turks/Muslims.

 

 

 

Armeni-lemmings simply cannot utilize independent and objective thought;
they only know how to follow their leaders... sometimes off cliffs.

 

In 1919, there was a military tribunal in Turkey, which tried and sentenced to death in abstentia the main perpetrators: Talaat, Enver, and Jemal. Yep, that kangaroo court by the puppet government cringing under Allied occupation sure carried the full letter of the law. Newspapers around the world reported on the events in Turkey. Thank God! We all know how impartial the newspapers could be. Archives in the U.S., for example, store much information of communiques, photographs, letters, newspaper articles, and other evidence. They must have been withholding all that evidence when the desperate British searched as far as America's shores to keep the Ottoman officials in the hoosegow, during the Malta War Crimes Tribunal... the "Nuremberg" of the Armenian Falsified Genocide. The U.S. Ambassador to Turkey at the time, Henry Morgenthau, has written extensively on his dealings with the ruling elite, as have the historians Viscount Bryce and Arnold Toynbee.  I feel much better now, being able to rely on the testimony of these fellows who were totally interested in the truth. See Morgenthau and British Propaganda. Yet, the Ottoman Archives (after 1895) in Turkey remains closed for scrutiny. Izzat so? That plain ain't true.

 

Most people in Turkey really do believe there was no genocide: they believe that there was a civil war in which people from both sides died, that Armenians were traitors siding with the Russians, and needed to be removed. 

 

Uhhh... could that be, because, you know.... that's just the way it WAS? I mean, they're only supported by... like, you know.... objective FACTS?

 

Here's the letter by Richard Hatch Aram was responding to, a man with greater tune to reality... having had the open mind to explore the other side:

 

Dear Sirs,

 

I would like to say that I agree with Mr Aktan's editorial concerning recognition by world governments of what is called the Armenian Genocide. The basic problem is that those who represent the belief in the genocide have a much better marketing strategy that those representing Turkish interests. As an American who has spent time in Turkey I can say that the average American citizen is ignorant of what Turkey is like.

 

The time I spent in Turkey was an education. I found a beautiful country with a rich history populated by some of the friendliest people I have ever met. I fell in love with Turkey. However, in the American news media this side of Turkey is rarely presented. Instead the only time you really hear about Turkey is in conjunction with the genocide. This is why it is accepted by so many in America.

 

The Turkish government needs to present their case as well as the genocide believers do in my country. My fellow Americans believe what they do about Turkey not because of malice but because of hearing only one side of the argument.

 

Sincerely,

 

Richard A. Hatch

 

Aram's take on why Turks are disliked

 

Yeah, I know Turks have a horrible name on the International scene. Do you want to guess a couple of reasons why the "Terrible Turks" got such a reputation? I know generalisations about you and your countrymen and women must be disturbing. Do you realise that doing things like denying a genocide do not really help your image? When an entire government is hell bent on changing history, when it denies the truth for its own purposes, when the memory of those it sentenced to death as a result of their nationality is forgotten or, worse, sites like this @#%$! come out trying to prove the exact opposite of what happened, well, you can expect many people to hate you, and many others to follow their example. What book are you reading? My guess is that it is a book in Turkish. Tell you what: why don't you read a book in another language, that you would not find in Turkey? Why don't you read a book about the genocide written by a genocide scholar who is neither Turkish nor Armenian, is living neither in Turkey nor Armenia, see what sources they consult and make sure they are unbiased?

 

Sigh. I'm afraid the reasons run far deeper than the ethnocentric view Aram expresses.... there is a lot more to why Turks have a bad reputation, and it has little to do with denying the "genocide." The reasons go far back, beginning with the Crusades, and earlier.

 

Professor Justin McCarthy summarized, in a 2001 lecture on British propaganda: "The reasons for the ill feeling against Turks that is often seen in Western countries... go back to the Middle Ages. They go back to the period in which the name Muhammad was virtually synonymous with the Devil in Western culture. Europeans and Americans had a long memory of conflict between Christianity and Islam, and Turks were the political leaders of Islam."

 

Looks like Aram is about to lose his cool, at this point.

 

I wonder what genocide scholar Aram advocates, who is neither Turkish or Armenian. Certainly, quite a few exist (such as good old Christopher Walker, and these "Armenians" in non-Armenian clothing), but the brunt of Armenian genocide scholars are Armenian. I think Aram is being disingenuous here... most of what he has relied on was most likely written by Armenians; Armenians who follow the "Armenian AND? Anthem," which would roughly be 99.99% of them.

 

I have never read a book on this subject in Turkish, because I have never come across such a book in America... (there is one bound book of "Illustrated History Magazine" from 1950-51 Turkey I subsequently discovered from my father's collection, and have cited in these pages... but there was nothing in there about the Armenian "Genocide.") besides, my Turkish wouldn't be up to the task. Unfortunately, for those like Aram, anyone who writes a "genocide" book that goes against their views would be unacceptable; even if the writer is not Turkish.

 

For example, in 2002, Christian scholar and Judge Sam Weems came up with the excellently researched "Armenia: Secrets of a 'Christian' Terrorist State"; Weems was a Scottish American whose first relative came to America in 1686. He said, "I don't have a drop of Turkish, Armenian, or Azerbaijan blood in my body. I am just an American taxpayer who, based on Armenian evidence, concludes that Armenia has created a genocide industry for the sole reason of fleecing and deceiving the Christian world." And what happened? Armenian organizations went on their typical character assassinating attack (calling Mr. Weems a "convicted felon," among other things), and lied about reading the book [concluding the book was untruthful] even before the book came out. In other words, Armenians dismissed the book... based primarily on the writings of their own beloved Professor Hovannisian... without even reading the book, pretending that they had read it!

 

Aram is also dead wrong in assuming books written in Turkish would be against his point of view. A trip to Prof. Levon Marashlian's page on his university's web site (as of April, 2003) reveals his genocide book written in Turkish, for sale in Turkey. Turkish Turncoat Taner Akcam has a genocide book in Turkish. I'm sure there are quite a number more. Turkish Turncoat Halil Berktay, who (like his buddy Mr. Akcam) is Armenian for all practical purposes... teaches the Armenian viewpoint in an Istanbul university.

 

There were plenty of good resources in that " @#%$!" armenianreality.com site from impartial, non-Turkish, Western sources... but Aram couldn't bear giving them a serious look.

 

 
"I sincerely hope that my time isn't wasted here" 

 

By the time of the last entry I read of Aram's, where he was running out of patience at his failure to get everyone to agree with his clearly "obvious" viewpoint, he began singing a different tune regarding the peaceful co-existence between Armenians and Turks:

 

Turks and Armenians did not live in peaceful co-existance for 900 years, I'm afraid. Armenians were under the yoke of the Ottoman empire, and that for about 600 years. Yes, they were not persecuted all the time, but this doesn't mean they lived in peace. Some Armenians even flourished in Ottoman times, especially the 19th century, associated with the Armenian Renaissance period. So I agree, they were not always enemies. But clearly, Armenians were seen as Infidels, second-class citizens in a society which tolerated them rather than giving them equal rights.

 

Turkish writer "Uz" had this to say:

 

you say nonturks were second class citizens in ottoman.if this is true then i think it was a REVOLUTION! dont you know that in that ages in europe non christians were not even seen as
human beings?

 

Once again, the double standard is applied. Who cares what happens when the shoe is on the other foot? Turkish lives just are not as important.

 

Aram winds up with (as far as I read):

 

I sincerely hope that my time isn't wasted here, that I could bring at least some of you to question what you have learned all your lives. I realise that you have never learned about the Armenian Genocide, but the Turkish government is trying to hide this fact from you: you cannot even discuss it freely in your country! (Puh-leeze...) I hope that you can use resources like the Internet to find out more about the truth. I also hope Armenians can be more tolerant towards the lack of information which results in many Turks denying the Genocide — this is normal when you are told it never happened — and not write things such as raping sisters and other @#%$! I have seen on thes guestbook. Your hatred will lead to your demise, and ruin your credibility. You will sound like the creators of this site. 

 

You tell 'em, Aram! At least he recognized the lack of civility on the part of his fellow Armenians will wind up doing more harm than good to the impartial observer. I only wish Aram would open up his own mind and follow his own advice: "...Use resources like the Internet to find out more about the truth." That is the name of the game.... the TRUTH. The only things are, you have to be careful where you're getting the truth from... and you have to have an open enough mind to consider different views.

 

 

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© Holdwater 

tallarmeniantale.com/Rational-Armenian.htm

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