1147) ARMENIAN GENOCIDE: the EU is picking the wrong battle

From: TurkishForum Advisory Board On Behalf Of Ilyas Botas
Subject:] ARMENIAN GENOCIDE: the EU is picking the wrong battle

Dear Mr. Cartman,

I can't believe that in this day and age the matter of freedom of expression and thought is up for discussion. I know the calculations of the slick popinjays residing in the French National Assembly, but your advocacy of a ban on free thought boggles the mind. Let me turn around the question you posed in your essay and ask you ( I am sure this question was asked during the Inquisition by people of your mindset) : "What use is freedom of speech when it is used to deny the flatness of the earth?"

In similar vein, people of your mindset asked two thousand years ago : "What use is freedom of speech when it is used to spread the lies of a ne'er-do-well charlatan and his adultering mother who claimed to be respectively, the son and wife of God?"

Since you write with certainty about this topic, I assume you must have done exhaustive research. If so, and since you have given a definitive number of 1.5 million Armenian dead, your thorough research must have produced for you a definite number of the dead on the other side. Tell us, Gareth, exactly how many Turks, Kurds, Jews, Muslims and other non-Armenians were massacred by Armenian terror gangs, brigands and irregular Armenian armies before, during and after 1915? If you can't give a number, you need to do more research. Not to worry, though. I have a definite number of the Turkish dead - along with the number of mass Turkish graves still being dug up even as we speak.

You claim "almost every single historian" agrees with the Armenian allegations. Who told you that? My friend, that particular lie is one spread by the slick and well-greased Armenian propaganda and disinformation machine. The octogenarian Bernard Lewis of Princeton University disagrees with the Big Armenian Lie. So does Prof. Guenter Lewy. So does Prof. Justin McCarthy. So does Stanford Shaw of the UCLA. In 1985, sixty-nine prominent American historians signed their names to a letter refuting the Armenian allegations. This letter was run by the NY Times and the Washington Post, among others. Since that time, every single one of these historians and their families were physically threatened by Armenian goons and terrorists. Prof. Stanford Shaw and his family were forced to go into hiding after their home was bombed by the above-mentioned hoodlums. Today, only a handful of these historians are still brave enough to speak out. There's your truth-seeking Armenians for you!

Justin McCarthy of the University of Louisville once said : "Any civil war, including ours, will look like genocide if you count only the dead of one side." So, my friend Gareth, if you count only the dead of the South in the U.S. Civil War, it can be said that Abraham Lincoln and his damn Yankees committed genocide. And, also, bear this in mind : The matter of who fired the first shot counts. It was the Armenians who fired the first shot, just as it was the South who fired the first shot by attacking Fort Sumter. If you take that first shot at me, you have forfeited your life. You cannot then complain that while you only fired one shot, I answered back with a volley. That's what they call war. That's what we and the Brits do in Iraq. When you hear our soldiers speak of being engaged in a "fierce firefight," what they mean is that the other side fired twenty shots at us, and we fired back twenty thousand.

Ask yourself this : If the Armenians are so sure of their case, why do they resort to blackmail and even violence to stifle the voices of those who disagree? What are they afraid of, the truth? If the Armenians have such a strong case, why do they vehemently refuse to go to the International Court at the Hague, as we have challenged them to do? Why does not Armenia open its archives as Turkey has done. Why does not the Armenian Revolutionary Federation in Massachusetts open its archives? Why doesn't France? What are they afraid of, the truth?

A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to put its boots on. The Turks are just beginning to put their boots on, while the Armenians have been at this lying game for over a hundred years. The Armenians are world-class champions in playing the victims. No matter what happens, the Armenians are the "Eternal Victims." They claimed victimhood a dozen years ago even as they murdered, raped, pillaged and plundered as they attacked and occupied 20% of the land of Azerbaijan. Before and during WWI as the Armenian goons were massacring women and children in Turkish villages and towns, their slick agents in Europe and America were screaming Armenian victimhood. France, Russia and England were instigating and arming these savage Armenian butchers with their most modern weapons.

Yes, Gareth, they have finally forced the Turk to put his boots on. They will regret having done so. When it's over, it won't be the Turks who lose. The losers will be the hate-mongering, bloodthirsty Armenians and the nation of whores that is France. That, my friend, you can take to the bank.

If you are a fair-minded person and if you can spare the time, take a gander at this most comprehensive of websites : http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/index.htm

It is the work of my friend Holdwater. Here you will find much material that you will never hear from the systematic lying machine that is the Armenian Lobby. What's best is that practically all the source material is from the mouths and pens of non-Turks, and includes Armenian sources as well. Here's just one quote from the horse's mouth itself. The horse is Hovhannes Katchaznouni, the first prime minister (1920's) of the independent Republic of Armenia :

"The war with us was inevitable... We had not done all that was necessary for us to have done to evade war. We ought to have used peaceful language with the Turks...We had no information about the real strength of the Turks and relied on ours. This was the fundamental error. We were not afraid of war because we thought we could win. Our army was well fed and well armed and [clothed] but it did not fight. The troops were constantly retreating and deserting their positions; they threw away their arms and dispersed in the villages. ...In spite of the fact that the Armenians had better material and better support, their armies lost......the advancing Turks fought only against the regular soldiers; they did not carry the battle to the civilian sector....the Turkish soldiers were well-disciplined and there were not any massacres. "

The Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, First Prime Minister of the Independent Armenian Republic

Published by the Armenian Information Service Suite 7D, 471 Park Ave. New York 22 - 1955



Gareth, before you throw around and dilute the word 'genocide,' you might also keep in mind this little piece I received a couple months ago. It's called "Genocide for Dummies." :



Genocide for Dummies . . . Here's when a 'mass killing' can be determined as a 'genocide' and when it cannot. It took me years and years of scientific research. Read, learn!

Killers: Muslims
Victims: Christians
Definition: It's definitely a Genocide

Killers: Christians
Victims: Muslims
Definition: It's definitely not a Genocide. Please refer to such events as
"War" or "Civil Conflict"

Killers: Germans, French, Dutch, Poles, Greeks, Armenians, Slavs etc.
Victims: European Jews
Definition: It's a Genocide - But only the Germans are guilty

Killers: Muslims
Victims: Muslims
Definition: It's a Genocide (If the victims are the West's allies or the
killers are the West's enemy)
It's not a Genocide (If the killers are the West's allies or the victims are
the West's enemy)

Killers: Christians
Victims: Christians
Definition: Incomplete data. Unable to make a judgment. Please provide the
skin color of the killers and the victims.

Killers: The West
Victims: Peoples of the 3rd World
Definition: Definitely not a Genocide. Use terms like Anti-Terrorism,
Overseas conflict, War against oppressive regimes, etc

All the best,

Ilyas

---------------

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paris Link"
To: "Ilyas Botas"
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 5:39 AM
Subject:] ARMENIAN GENOCIDE: the EU is
picking the wrong battle


> I'm glad that the article has got people talking.
> Do you have any kind of problem with it?
> Gareth
>


Gareth Cartman of contact@paris-link.com says, "The genocide took place.
Of that there can be no doubt."

This bit of news may come as a shock to Mr. Cartman but it was not long ago,
there lived many, many, many Gareth Cartmans who averred with equal
confidence that, "The earth is flat. Of that there can be no doubt."

I envy the ignoramuses of the Flat Earth Society who sleep soundly with
their heads buried in the sand. Ignorance must indeed be bliss. Pity the
rest of us who spend our nights sleepless, filled with doubts.

Ilyas Botas
USA

----

Armenian genocide: The EU is picking the wrong battle
Posted by: "onno_tunc" onno_tunc@yahoo.com onno_tunc
Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:30 am (PST)
Paris Link, France
Oct 13 2006

Armenian genocide: The EU is picking the wrong battle
Thu, 12 Oct 2006 22:40:00
Gareth Cartman

Paris Link, France
Oct 13 2006


A law, proposed by the Socialist party, has been voted through the Assemblée Nationale today. Turkey is furious, as is the EU. However, they forget one thing - the holocaust is banned in many countries across Europe. Time to be less selective with our memories.

A little perspective. Holocaust denial is illegal in the following countries:

Austria (6 month to 20 years prison sentence),
Belgium (maximum one year sentence or a fine),
Czech Republic (6 month to 2 years prison sentence),
France (maximum two year sentence or a fine),
Germany (maximum five year sentence or a fine),
Israel (maximum five year sentence),
Lithuania (maximum ten year sentence),
Poland (maximum three year sentence),
Romania (6 month to 2 year sentence),
Slovakia (maximum three year sentence)
Switzerland (maximum 15 month sentence or fine)

Today, French socialists have voted through a law that will make denial of the Armenian holocaust illegal as well, with a one year jail sentence and a fine. Not wishing to take part in a debate that they morally could not win, the UMP refused to take part, making the actual vote (106-19) something of a cakewalk for the Socialists.

The reaction has been hostile. Firstly, the Turks have taken to the streets in protest outside the French embassy in Ankara. There has been talk of a boycott of French products, which the government moved to deny quickly - stressing that the people would make that choice. The government then went on to mention that French companies would be viewed unfavourably when seeking to enter markets in Istanbul.

France has reconfirmed its commitment to dialogue with Turkey and has stressed that the passing of this law will in no way hinder talks regarding accession to the EU, to which France has always been relatively favourable.

EU spokesmen have spoken furiously against the law today. Quoted in Libération, British Lib-Dem vice-president for the Turkish delegation, Andrew Duff, said that it was a sad day for liberal ideas in France, and that the Assemblée Nationale had rejected the fundamental rights of freedom of speech. Voltaire must be turning in his grave, he said.

While the EU is attempting to force Turkey to overturn its own laws which "offend the Turkish identity" (and mentioning the Armenian Genocide is a possible method of offending this identity), it feels that the French law will hinder negotiations. Indeed, if Turkey is to promote freedom of speech by overturning their own law, this law in France hardly gives the Turks the best example of how to do so.

Jacques Chirac - the man who started the debate by declaring in Yerevan that the Turks must acknowledge the genocide - has been strangely quiet on the issue. Chirac has been strongly against historic laws, throwing France's colonial glorification out of the law books, acknowledging the role the Harkis played for France in the Algerian war and revising the pensions of colonial-origin soldiers recently.

The majority of historians agree that the genocide of the Armenians did indeed take place. Not just the majority, but almost every single historian. To its credit, even Turkey has welcomed a debate on the subject and university professors have acknowledged that the genocide did take place. Between 1915 and 1917, over 1.5 million Armenians were massacred as the Ottoman Empire drew to a bloody close.

The genocide took place. Of that there can be no doubt. Today's law may not be the most necessary law in the world, and it may not be the most popular, but the EU are picking the wrong battle. While voices against this law claim that it will hinder negotiations, it should indeed help negotiations. Concerned only with its own negotiations and business, the EU ignores the fact that holocaust denial is illegal in most countries across Europe - why should denial of the Armenian genocide cause such a problem?

This is not about freedom of speech - holocaust deniers or revisionists frequently take their claims to the European Court using the Freedom of Speech Law as the basis of their ultimate defence. They are thrown out of court each time. Besides, what use is freedom of speech when it is to deny the genocide of 1.5 million Armenians?

If Turkey has pretentions to EU accession, then the EU will be all the better for its eventual inclusion. But the EU cannot and must not accept Turkey unless it acknowledges the genocide. The law passed today is not foolish, useless or even vain. It is necessary - and not without precedent. Remember.