Genocide of Truth, By Sukru Server Aya
Istanbul Commerce University Publication N0. 25
January 2008
Armenian genocide is a controversial issue and also a fabrication by many Armenians and their supporters who benefit from it according to those who have studied the events of the end of 19th and the beginning of 20th century with an open mind and without prejudice. Through the efforts of selfish Armenians, the issue have been carried to the legislative organs of 19 countries and 41 States in America, passing Resolutions declaring April 24 as the genocide day. Articles, books, commentaries which support the Armenian claims number in the hundreds of thousands, mostly based on a few books written by Ambassadors and Missionaries as war propaganda and the survivors of the relocation and immigrants to foreign countries. Very few books have been written by Turks and their supporters that show the Armenian genocide is a myth, as best described in a book by Austrian historian, Erich Feigel, “A Myth of Terror” and other books listed below (1). . .
On April 14, a new book was introduced to the media (very few attended) and the public which responds to the allegations of the supporters of the Armenian genocide. The 700 page book, “Genocide of Truth”, is the result of over 4 years of extensive research and study by an ordinary Turkish citizen aged 78, who happens to believe that the allegations are an injustice and insult to Turkey and Turks everywhere.
The book is a compilation of information from a multitude of foreign sources, grouped under 30 headings, in order to shed light to certain arguments and thesis. It begins with an Introduction and Chapter 1, “Historical Background”, and ends with Chapter 30, “Status Quo and Conclusive Remarks. There is a long list of Bibliography and a Selected Index and over 400 notes at the end of each chapter which shed further light on the subjects presented. It is a valuable source for anyone interested in solving this number one foreign policy issue of Turkey.
It is not easy to read the massive work in a few days or weeks, which is unique in its presentation with frequent quotations from interesting people that shed light to the subject matter. As the author states in the Introduction, the purpose of the book is “neither to acquit the Ottoman Administration from the responsibilities of a generally badly managed deportation or relocation process, nor to degrade the Armenian people as a race or nationality.”
The first four chapters give the background on the Turkish – Armenian relations and the groundwork established by the Armenians to create a state on eastern part of Turkey where they were never the majority through revolts and uprisings which resulted in the massacre of Muslims and Turks.
The subject covered in Chapter 5, Marvelous Missionaries, is very important, since the American High Schools founded by Protestant missionaries are where I was educated before heading to the United States to attend university. Therefore I would like to present the review of the book in several parts, beginning with this chapter. There has been many commentaries and articles over the years on the role of the missionaries in the creation of the Armenian issue, which is very sensitive and their involvements is not known by the public widely. As a frequent contributor to the study of this issue, I received the following comment from one of my former American teachers:
“We agree that all of us – including Christian missionaries to the Ottoman Empire and Turkey - need to acknowledge that wrongs were done to all sides during the early 20th century. We need to ask forgiveness of each other. Then we need to find ways to be friends. None of these is an easy step; the hurts are real, even if some of the cause may be dubious. For us, the greatest reason for friendship and healing is that the alternative is grossly destructive. “
The chapter begins with information on the founding of Missionary Societies in London with the mission of instructing Christians of the Arab East as to what being Christian meant, evidently prompting Edgar Allan Poe to state, “The pioneers and missionaries of religion have been the real cause of more trouble and war than all other classes of mankind.” (P. 57) The first missionary societies in the USA were founded in 1810 which led to the arrival of missionaries in Izmir in 1819 and the opening of a mission in Bursa in 1834. The book tells the story of their expansion in the Ottoman lands and opening of missionary schools in Harput in 1876 as “Armenian College” , later renamed as “Euphrates College.” The Tarsus American High School was established in 1888 and Talas American High School in 1889.
A book by Dr. Uygur Kocabasoglu, “America in Anatolia – the Missionary Schools in the 19th Century Ottoman Empire, Based on Documents,” is a good source of information on the activities of the missionary schools. Another book by a former teacher at American High School Frank Andrews Stone, “Academies for Anatolia”, presents a study of the Rationale, Program and Impact of the Educational Institutions Sponsored by the American Board in Turkey: 1830 – 2005. However, neither one of these books are referenced or included in the Bibliography.
Chapter 16, “Propaganda Fabrications,” is also very important as it presents information on the role of several early publications which are being used over and over again by authors, academicians and students to deceive the unsuspecting readers around the world.
The chapter begins with an analysis of the book supposedly written by the US Ambassador to Turkey Henry Morgenthau (1913 – 1915) and based on his diaries, published in the US in 1918. The author tells the story behind this book by referring to a study of Prof. Heath Lowry who has shown that the book did not reflect the true events of the time. Ambassador Morgenthau's book, also available in Turkish translation, was ghost written for him by Burton Hendrick with input from his Armenian secretary and Armenian translator, with the purpose of bringing the US into war against the Ottoman Empire. The sections below are directly from ''The Murder of a Nation'', a chapter from the book ''Ambassador Morgenthau's Story'', published as a separate book by the Armenian Benevolent Association, full of slanders against the Ottoman Turks and many fabricated and distorted facts:
1. p. 51. ''Perhaps the one event in history that most resembles the Armenian deportations was the expulsion of the Jews from Spain by Ferdinand and Isabella. According to Prescott 160,000 were uprooted from their homes and scattered broadcast over Africa and Europe.
The Ambassador conveniently omits the fact that it was the Ottoman Turks who saved the Spanish Jews and sent ships to bring them to the Ottoman lands and settled them in Istanbul, Selanik, Bursa and other cities.
The Ambassador continues on the same page :
Yet all these previous persecutions seem almost trivial when we compare them with the Armenian sufferings, in which at least 600,000 people were destroyed and perhaps as many as 1,000,000.
As mentioned in many references, the Ambassador Morgenthau never ventured from the environs of Istanbul and did not witness anything, as many others and and Samantha Power claim in her book, . And yet the HR 106 voted by the US House Foreign Affairs Committee mentions that 2,000,000 Armenians were deported and 1,500,000 Armenian were killed, among many other distorted facts.
2. p. 6. ''They (Turks) were lacking in what we may call th fundamentals of a civilized community. They had no alphabet and no art of writing; no books, no poets, no art, no architecture; they built no cities and established no lasting states.''
3. p. 50. ''The only reason for relating such dreadful things as this is that, without the details, the English-speaking public can not understand precisely what this nation is which we call Turkey.''
Sukru Aya writes in his book that Morgentau’s claims were refuted by George A. Schreiner, a distinguished foreign correspondent who served in Turkey at the time and who knew the Ambassador and wrote to him about his concerns on how the truth was twisted to favour the Armenians.
A book on the relations between the Netherlands and Turkey published in 2007 makes reference to the Dutch Reporter George Nypels who has stated in 1922 that “Ambassador Morgenthau’s widely read book was now judged to be ill-founded.” The book, the Netherlands and Turkey: Four hundred years of political, economical, social and cultural relations – selected essays” also states that the writings of the former US Ambassador were refuted by Ahmed Rustem Bey, a former Ottoman Ambassador to Washington . These are not mentioned in “Genocide of Truth” which could be issued as an addendum, including the addition of Morgenthau’s books “The Murder of a Nation”, “Secrets of the Bosphorus” and “Ambassador Morgenthau’s Story” to the Bibliography.
Over the years many articles have been written by Henry Morgenthau’s son, Henry Morgenthau Jr. and his grandson, Henry Morgenthau III, which in a way carry on the mission of their father and grandfather, but the “Genocide of Truth” makes no references to any of these, especially commentaries published in Boston Globe by Henry Morgenthau III. There is also no reference to Samantha Power’s book “ A Problem from Hell – America and the Age of Genocide “, which has the opening chapter devoted to the Ambassador’s work with his photograph and can be found in every library in the US.
This is a valuable book that will show the readers the other side of the story and every concerned Turk and Turkish American who would like to see an end to the tall tale of Armenian genocide should read it in order to bring out the truth about the Armenian issue and set the record straight.
Genocide of Truth is an excellent book with a collection of detailed information from a wide variety of sources which includes many books, articles, newspaper opinions and commentaries from many foreign publications written by westerners over the past 100 years (Over 2,000, according to the author). It is almost like an encyclopedia, presented under 30 chapters, with an Introduction by Prof. Talat S. Halman and a Foreword & Bibliography by the author. Each chapter can be read as a stand alone treasury of information on various subjects related to this important issue which has been presented to the world as a one sided and prejudiced tragedy with many fabrications, as shown by many authorities..
In the Part I of my review, I covered chapters which I am most familiar with which are also the most controversial. These were Chapters 1 through 5 and Chapter 16, Propaganda fabrications (May 11, 2008). The book begins with Chapter 1, “Historical Background”, and ends with Chapter 30, “Status Quo and Conclusive Remarks. There is a long list of Bibliography and a Selected Index and over 400 notes at the end of each chapter which shed further light on the subjects presented. It is a valuable source for anyone interested in solving this number one foreign policy issue of Turkey.
Part II of my review will cover some of the remaining chapters and summarize for the benefit of those who may not have the time to read the entire book what conclusions one might expect to reach.
Chapter 6, Divinity for Bigotry and Anarchy, provides statements by many famous figures, including Napoleon Bonaparte, Warren G. Harding, Sigmund Freud, Tomas Paine, Mohandas Gandi, Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln, one of the most respected President of the United States (1809 – 1865), claimed to have the Melunchan ancestry. This is what Abraham Lincoln has stated on divinity:
“My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of scriptures have become clearer and stronger with the advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them. Page 89.”
Among the many quotations, The New York Times report on Oct. 28, 1915, The Light That Might Go Out in Turkey, includes the following statement from Admiral Bristol, the US Ambassador to the Ottoman State: “Troubled that killings by Armenians and Greeks did not get into the American press, the admiral wondered in his diary, ‘Why aren’t the atrocities committed by the Christian nation more heinous than those committed by Moslem races’, if Christianity is better than Islam.”
Chapter 7, Distorting Realism Brings Antagonism, offers the readers a variety of excerpts and incidents relating to the Superpowers as defenders of Christianity and Humane values. At the request of Protestant missionaries, England and the U.S. intervene in the internal affairs of the Ottoman Empire. In fact, Artin Dadyan Pasha, Ottoman Under-Secretary of State Foreign Affairs actually works for the Armenian case and not for the Sultan as referenced in Erich Feigel’s book “A Myth of Terror.” What is also worse is that the Major Powers were directly and indirectly encouraging enmity between the Armenian sects, referenced in another book, “The Great War and the Great Tragedy of Anatolia” by Salahi Sonyel. The author in a Flier Sheet issued after the publication of the book states that this chapter as well as Chapters 14 though 17 show that the claims outlined in the 2007 House Resolution 106 are fabrications.
Chapter 8, “Di-fused AUTONOMY! (Goal or Pretext?) begins with a statement that the Ottomans were friendly with Dashnaks, something overlooked by most historians and writers, especially the Armenian authors. In fact, the book states that the Dashnak Congress in 1914 was hosted in Erzurum where the Ottomans offered the Dashnaks and Hunchaks autonomy, although the book makes reference to independence as well (which may need to be corrected.). The chapter also makes reference to the aims of British on carving up the Ottoman Empire and the US President Woodrow Wilson’s desire for its complete disappearance, something shared by the US Ambassador Henry Morgenthau.
Chapter 9, Atrocities, Van, etc., makes references to the Armenian atrocities and revolutionary acts that go back to 1880s. For a very comprehensive study of the Van rebellions, the author refers the reader to Prof. Justin McCarty’s book, “The Armenian Revolt in Van,” while citing from close to 100 other references.
Chapter 10, Battlefields (Sarikamish – Gallipoli – Suez) emphasizes the fact that the Ottoman armies were fighting on many different fronts, something also overlooked and seldom mentioned by some historians and writers. In his book, Inside Constantinople, Epstein, a member of the US Embassy in Istanbul at the time, states that the attack at Gallipoli was the main reason for the re-location of Armenians.
Some of the conclusions that the reader can easily reach on the Armenian Issue after reading this book include:
1. Armenians and Turks lived together for almost a thousand years until the western powers began to interfere in the internal affairs of the Ottoman Empire and used Armenians for their own purposes.
2. Towards the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century, Armenians began revolts and uprisings against the Ottoman government and started massacring Turks with the aim of creating a state of their own on lands where they were not the majority.
3. Armenians betrayed their own government and the moslems by joining the invading Russian forces and with their aid, captured Van, establishing the Armenian Republic of Van, killing over 30,000 moslem inhabitants. After the relocation and their return, some Armenians joined French forces in fights against the Ottomans in the Cilician region.
4. During the uprisings, Russia, England, France and Italy provided arms and support to the Armenian guerrillas and terrorists and the missionaries from these countries and the United States
And much more.
Sukru Aya has not stopped writing about the Armenian issue with the publication of his book. He has summarized new findings that were revealed after the publication of his book, especially a Report submitted to the US Congress by the Near East Relief Fund (now Near East Foundation with headquarters in NYC with an Armenian director) back in 1922. I will cover these and further review of additional chapters in Part III of my review.
This is a book that should be read by everyone who would like to see this issue resolved and Armenians and Turks everywhere can talk to each other, just like we did with Ara Sarafian when he freely discussed the Armenian issue in Istanbul, who was also presented a copy of the book by Sukru Aya personally.
Regards,
Yuksel Oktay, PE. July 17, 2008
Genocide of Truth
By Sukru Server Aya
Istanbul Commerce University Publication N0. 25
January 2008
Review of “The Genocide of Truth” by Michael van der Galien
When one is interested in the events of 1915 – and those leading up to them – which are called the “Armenian Genocide” by some, there are a couple of must read books that deny the thesis that what happened constitutes genocide. Most of these books are written by historians.“The Ottoman Peoples and the End of Empire” by Professor Justin is an example of such a must read book for those who study this subject (either professionally or as an extra, out of interest), “The Armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey” by Prof. Guenter Lewy is another one.
Now, I have found yet another book that all those interested in this subject – even those who support the genocide thesis – should have in their possession: “The Genocide of Truth” by Sükrü Server Aya, published by the Istanbul Chamber of Commerce. . .
That this is a must read and must have book about this rather complicated subject, like the other books mentioned above, does not mean that you can compare this book in most other ways to those other, high quality works. First of all, Aya is not a historian, nor does he pretend to be one. He is a Turk who got interested in this subject and the Armenian allegations, who decided to study it himself as to find out what happened (whether they are right or not) and who, after many years of extensive research, came to the conclusion that there is no such thing as an ‘Armenian Genocide’ and that most Armenian activists purposefully deceive the public by lying about what truly happened almost 100 years ago.
Another major difference is that the other books, especially the one by Prof. McCarthy, almost read like a novel. They are meant to entertain and inform at the same time; they are clearly written by men who are used to write a lot and who are used to explaining historic events to a big, perhaps uninformed but interested public. Their books are written in a way that appeals to a big public. They cover a complicated subject in such a way that the reader can read the book in one day nonetheless and be informed. Of course it has to be pointed out that Anglo-Saxon intellectuals are famous for this style; academics of most other countries have a more boring writing style.
That is, however, not the case with Aya. His style is not boring, but it does not read like a novel either; that is mostly due to the fact that this book is not meant as an introductory or entertaining work. Rather, “The Genocide of Truth” is meant as a big collection of a wide variety of sources, much like an encyclopedia (it has 702 pages for instance). It is meant to explain the issue based on many (also foreign) documents and to show the reader that the no-genocide thesis is based on not just one or two important documents, but on thousands, perhaps even tens of thousands. It is not meant as a novel; the idea of Aya is that the reader can pick up the book whenever he wants to, and can start reading wherever he wants to. You can first read chapter one, and then chapter seven, next you can go back to chapter two and you will not be confused.
This is due to the lay-out of the book. Aya has divided the issue of the ‘genocide’ into several sub-issues. He starts off, for instance, by taking a look at the historical background of the ‘genocide,’ the division of the Ottoman Empire into ‘Millets’ (religious groups) and, then, he takes a look at the situation before, say, 1890; the Armenians and Ottomans had, Aya shows by using a wide variety of documents, a great relationship for hundreds of years. They were rightfully called the “loyal” people by the Ottoman rulers. The Armenians were Christians, yes, but they were loyal, and treated well. They were well off, and had political power, especially after the Ottomans started reforming their country.
Next, Aya takes a look at the missionaries who were active in the Ottoman Empire. This chapter, the fifth, is one of the best in the entire book. The sources Aya relies on are extensive – it’s hard to imagine that he missed any sources and documents that deal with the role (especially) American missionaries played in spreading a feeling of Christian superiority among the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire and of nationalism (as in glorification of the own ‘nation’ – people). Furthermore, what makes this chapter so valuable – in the opinion of someone who has read a lot of books on this subject and who plans to read even more in the coming weeks, months and years – is that he explores a subject, or sub-subject actually, that has been ignored or not researched enough by authors of most other books on the events leading up to 1915. Yes, they often point out that missionaries played a vital role in transforming the ‘loyal millet’ into the ‘rebellious millet,’ but they mostly do so in one or two paragraphs. Aya does not; he takes the time to explain the situation and to explain the role these missionaries played; he actually spends 32 pages to it.
This chapter alone makes “The Genocide of Truth” a must read.
At the very start of the chapter Aya explains to the reader why it is so important to take a look at the missionaries, at how trustworthy they were, at the role they played, etc.: “nearly all information concerning alleged cruelties was reported by the missionaries to the American Board or Relief organizations and the US, British and other embassies.” Much information that was used in the West to stir up an anti-Turkish sentiment, a sentiment that is still alive and well, was provided by these missionaries who were more than Christians trying to convert people; they were also political animals, as Aya explains, who tried to help Christian peoples by turning them from subjects into rulers; even when they were the minority (as they were just about everywhere in the Empire at that time).
The above is not made up by some Turkish people who try to defend their country against allegations of a brutal crime. Aya can back his case up by using many documents. He quotes them at length, so that the reader cannot but come to the conclusion that, indeed, missionaries in the Ottoman Empire may not have been as peaceful and innocent as most Christians and Westerners would like to believe.
Aya quotes, for instance, from Salahi Sonyel’s work “The Great War & The Great Tragedy of Anatolia.” This work summarizes the role of the missionaries perfectly: “Christian minorities played an important role in efforts to dismember the Ottoman Empire. Their aims and ambitions, if fully realized, would involved the dissolution and disappearance of the Empire, to be replaced by puppet Christian states subservient to their patrons, the major Powers.”
There were reasons why missionaries and Christians in general wanted to destroy the Ottoman Empire. “While on a missionary trip to the Choctaw Indians, North American missionary William Goodell came up with the idea of re-conquering the Holay Land for Christianity. At that time, the Holy Land was entirely under Ottoman rule. This new Crusade – for that is exactly how the undertaking was seen – began with a series of reconnaissance tours, planned in an almost military fashion. The American missionaries spared no personal sacrifice the course of these tours,” Aya quotes from Erich Feigl’s “A Myth of Terror.”
One of those merry Westerners, the author explains, was Lord Bryce. If one wants to know what kind of person Bryce was, one merely has to take a look at “Britain & The Armenian Question 1915-23” by Akaby Nassibian. Aya quotes: “Bryce stressed that many Armenians had entered the civil or military service in Russia and some had risen to posts of dignity. He quoted the example of Loris Melikov, the commander of the invading Russian army in Asia in 1877… Bryce believed that the Turkish government ‘deserves to die’.”
Slowly but surely, American missionary schools were transformed into centers for rebellion and anti-Ottoman and anti-Moslem sentiment. The Ottomans knew that the missionaries and Christian churches were used to spread a message of rebellion and war, but there was not much they could do about it; it had agreed with Western powers that Christian missionaries could not be prosecuted for any crimes. As Aya explains, these missionaries used their invulnerability to the fullest.
Take a look, for instance, at this: “First the Catholic missionaries, then the Protestants had begun a campaign of indoctrination among the Gregorians which created many problems. … The Catholics in Turkey were protected by France and Austria; the Protestants mainly by Britain and the US, and the Orthodox by Russia. All these Powers aimed at increasing their influence in the Ottoman Empire, ostensibly in order to protect their protégés, but actually in order to promote their own interests. The Armenians were thus divided by the agents of the major Powers for their ulterior motives. Russia was using the Gregorian Armenians to descend to the warm waters of the Mediterranean and cut off the British route to India; hence it was pressing the Catholicos of Etchmiadzin to stop the progress of the ‘heresy’ of reforms and to clear the empire of it; Britain was using the Protestant and Gregorian Armenians to preserve its lifeline to India by containing Russia restricting French influence; and France was making use of the Catholic.”
Unlike what the reader may think, Aya does not just use sources that agree with him; in fact, Aya quotes from many works written by Westerners who defend the Armenians and the genocide thesis. What he accomplishes by this is that one quickly realizes just how incredibly biased the Western, Christian world was back then, and how biased it probably still is. Turkish Moslem suffering is ignored, Armenian suffering is exaggerated. Armenian Christians have rights, Turkish Moslems do not. Armenian Christian lives matter, Turkish Moslem lives do not.
After these initial ‘leading up to’ chapters, Aya skips to the changes in the Ottoman Empire, and the increasing tensions between Armenians and Turks. Aya shows, again by using a variety of sources, most of which either objective of pro-Armenian, that Armenians started rebelling against the Moslem rulers and killing Moslems on a grand scale behind the frontlines. Furthermore, the author shows also by using Armenian sources, Armenians joined the allies, and especially the Russians. They crossed the border and started fighting for the Russians. When the troops entered Ottoman soil, the Armenian soldiers started wiping out the local Moslem population. Officers of the Great Powers reported about the atrocities committed by Armenians, this is also before the Ottoman government gave the order to relocate the Armenians of Eastern Anatolia, and complained about them. Many of them were disgusted with the conduct of the Armenians who hated the Moslem Turks with such a passion, that not even one of them was safe.
They also, Aya shows, started rebelling on a massive scale behind the lines. They took over entire cities and villages, all in an attempt to occupy the Ottoman soldiers; the more soldiers had to fight against the Armenians at home, the less of them could fight against the Russians in an attempt to stop them from progressing and conquering Anatolia. These Armenian terrorists, because that is what they were, were supported financially, spiritually and materially by the Great Powers who supported the Christian minorities who fought against the majority of Moslems.
“Ammunition was scarce,” Aya quotes from “The Armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey” by Guenter Lewy, “but Prof. Menassian Effendi, Head of the National School and graduate of Yale’s Sheffield School of Science, cleverly transformed such chemicals as were at hand and manufactured smokeless and black powder, while mechanics turned brass cartridge shells. The Armenian laboratories were soon issuing 2000 cartridges daily, besides hand grenades… Women and children carried ammunition and food and water… After a three-hour fight, the Turks retreated, leaving 35 dead on the field.”
“Art. 6 of the program of the Hunchak Party stated: ‘The time for the general revolution (Armenia) will be when a foreign power attacks Turkey externally. The party shall revolts internally.’ In due time this program of course became known to the Turkish Government and during World War I, the Young Turks used the clause to justify the deportation of the Armenians… In order to achieve these aims ‘by means of the revolution,’ revolutionary bands were ‘to arm the people,’ wage ‘an incessant fight against the [Turkish] Government’ and ‘wreck and loot government institutions.’”
Armenians often talk about how the Turks started fighting against them in the 1890s, resulting in massive Armenian deaths, but they often forget to mention the inconvenient truth that the Armenians themselves started fighting before the Turks did anything; the Turks, as Aya shows, defended themselves. They were not aggressors, they were defenders. Case in point: “For example, the 1894 troubles in Sassun were preceded by Armenian attacks on the Bekhran and Zadian tribes, which resulted in armed battles between the Armenian revolutionaries and Kurdish tribesmen.”
“For example,” Aya goes on to quote, “an eloquent defender of the revolution explained to Cyrus Hamlin, the founder of Robert College in Constantinople, how Hunchak bands would use European sympathy for Armenian suffering to bring about European intervention. They would ‘watch their opportunity to kill Turks and Kurds, set fire to their villages, and then make their escape into the mountains. The enraged Moslems will then rise, and fail upon the defenseless Armenians and slaughter them with such barbarity that Russia will enter in the name of humanity and Christian civilization and take possession.’ When the horrified missionary denounced this scheme as immoral, he was told: ‘It appears so to you, no doubt; but we Armenians have determined to be free. Europe listened to the Bulgarian horrors and made Bulgaria free. She will listen to our cry when it goes up in shrieks and blood of millions of women and children’.”
The author also quotes Western newspapers from the time; the New York Times reported back then, for instance, that “a massacre at Zeitoun” had taken place during which Armenian “insurgents killed all Turkish soldiers in town except two.” Later, in 1909, which is six years before the Ottoman government ordered the deportation or relocation of Armenians, it was reported that “the leader of the Armenian community of Adana, Archbishop Museg, had urged his people to acquire arms.”
What Aya shows in this particular chapter is that, when we talk about the events of 1915, we also have to talk about the events leading up to the relocations. This chapter documents a side of the story that has been ignored in the West for more than 90 years, even though there are documents enough that proof that Armenians committed horrendous atrocities against (innocent) Moslem Turks, all in an attempt to cleanse the lands from them so that they, the Armenians, could have a nation-state of their own.
Next, Aya spends time to the relocations. Nowadays, Armenians claim that nearly 1.5 million of their ancestors died during these relocations and, they say, that happened because the ‘relocations’ were an attempt to wipe out the Armenian population of Anatolia. As Aya shows, there is however a minor problem with the aforementioned; firstly, it is quite unlikely that 1.5 million Armenians died, simply because the population statistics of the Ottomans shows that there were only between 1.5 and 2 million Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire at that time. As other documents show, many of them, more than half, survived the war and settled in the newly founded Armenia or other (especially Western) countries. If 1.3 million Armenians survived and settled in those countries, it is literally impossible to say that 1.5 others died. Either they were modern-day Jesus Christs – who rose up after being killed and then migrated –, that the Ottoman population statistics were way off, or Armenian activists are using false numbers. Aya proves, that the latter is most likely the case, also because the Ottomans taxes Christians more than Moslems; less Christians meant less money.
Those are not the only lies and distortions used by Armenians. Aya has documented many others. One of them: the so-called Andonian documents. This letter was used by Armenians to back up their case that the Ottoman government planned to wipe out their Armenian subjects. Sadly for them, however, the documents are forgeries; obviously made by Armenian nationalists themselves. The British and other allies have always refused to use these documents in court, simply because they were not reliable; not even almost. As Aya shows, however, that did not prevent Armenians and their Western allies from using these documents as ‘proof’ in the public debate. After all, the public does not take a long and careful look at what is presented as ‘evidence.’ If you tell a story and say that the document you hold in your hand is written by Ottoman officials, most people will simply assume it to be true.
It is despicable but, as Aya shows in the 17th chapter “Proven Forgery to Distort History,” done for decades nonetheless. Another such documents is the Blue Book by Arnold Toynbee. Toynbee was a historian, and generally considered to be a very good one at that, so Armenians use this book to back up their claims. The only problem, and this is something they never mention, is that Toynbee did not write this document as a ‘historical academic work,’ but as propaganda designed to convince Westerners that the Great Powers had to fight against the Moslem Turks and ‘liberate’ their Christian fellow citizens. Aya shows that this document too, is unreliable.
And there are many more forgeries and unreliable documents used by Armenians and their allies which Aya debunks by using a great many sources. The famous Hitler quote for instance (“Only thus shall we gain the living space [lebensraum] which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?”), is shown by Aya to be a forgery, a fake. Hitler never said it; one ‘witness’ said Hitler had said it, but the allied did not include this in their evidence, simply because it was not credible. Hitler allegedly said it during a speech, but all the other transcripts, etc. of the speech do not mention this sentence. Why then has it been included? Because Armenians and their allies have always tried to use everything, everything that ever happened, to their own advantage to further their cause. It is a fake quote, everyone with the least of knowledge about this subject knows it, but Armenian nationalists still lie about it and try to convince Westerners to recognize their ‘genocide’ by using it as ‘evidence.’ As Aya shows, this is part of their propaganda campaign against modern day Turkey.
After that, Aya takes a look at the role epidemics played in the ‘destruction of the Ottoman Armenians,’ and he takes a look at what important Armenian leaders had to say about the First World War, the events of 1915, etc. As Aya shows, these individuals knew better than to blame the Ottomans; they blamed themselves for the misery that had fallen upon their fellow Armenians. They thought they could beat the Turkish Moslems, but they lost. They thought they could kill innocent Moslem lives and get away with it because the West would do whatever necessary to protect them, but the Turks were stronger than most expected and not quite willing to give their homeland to a people who had always been a (small) minority.
“The Genocide of Truth” does a great job convincing the reader that what happened was no genocide. The lies, forgeries and distortions used against Turks have been effective over the years, but “The Genocide of Truth” uses so many documents that the reader cannot come to another conclusion that the Turks have been done a great wrong. The question the reader will ask himself immediately after finishing this book is ‘how come Armenian nationalists are still so successful?’ The author deals with that question in “The Success of Armenian Lobbies and Diaspora” (chapter 24). Again by using a wide variety of documents, Aya shows why it is that Armenians have dominated this debate; they started influencing public opinion decades ago, they were given support from religious leaders in the West, and they were Christians and had, as such, public opinion automatically in favor of them. This is a great injustice, but that is how it is. Armenians have been active for decades, and are willing to spend a lot of money to convince governments to recognize the ‘genocide’ so that their Armenia can finally accomplish what it wanted to accomplish back in 1915: ridding Anatolia of Turkish Moslems (ethnic cleansing), after which the lands can be annexed by Armenia.
As said earlier on in this review, Aya’s work is not a quick and easy read, but it is a must have nonetheless. It is filled with information all those interested in this subject need; not just those who disagree with the genocide thesis. The wide variety of sources used makes up for the weaknesses of the book (such as style). It cannot be called a masterpiece, but it most certainly is one of the best collections of documents and excerpts ever presented on this subject. The author did himself and the larger public a tremendous service by compiling it and getting it published.
In what’s evidence that Aya understands the value of the Internet he has decided to put his book online; it’s not just available in hardcover (such as the one I have), you can also get it for free as an e-book here. Be sure to read the speech he delivered for the launch of his book.
Michael van der Galien, Editor-in-Chief, July 13, 2008
Comments
nevber
Interesting article…. I did not read Mr. Aya’s book but however, I did read Mr. J. McCarthy’s latest book “the Ottomon Peoples and the end of Empire”. I also noticed that there was not much extensive analysis of the events that was leading up to the 1915 deportations by the Ottomans. Yes, the role of missionaries was mentioned but not in depth. That is a very important part of the history that must not be ignored or brushed off under the carpet. I will read Mr. Sukru Aya’s book. Sounds very informative!
Michael van der Galien, Editor-in-Chief
Nevber: you should certainly get this book. It’s, as I said, a grand collection of important documents. It should not miss from your library.
Ara
How convenient that you defer to the reasons that this author of yours gives for an Armenian population of only 1.5-2 million during the end of Ottoman times. The Ottomans purposely underestimated Armenian population figures for their political aims, i.e. to prove to western powers that the Armenians were not a significant portion of the Eastern provinces and thus did not deserve special treatment. This does not mean that it’s likely that Armenians were/are inflating their numbers. You’re propaganda isn’t even logical, even in the face of obvious explanations. You get a sick joy from diminishing the suffering of Armenians I presume. It’s very sad.
David
Unfortunately for Michael van der Galien the ‘attempted extermination of the Armenians’ is bound semantically to the word Genocide. Raphael lemkin the man who coined the word genocide in 1944 used the Armenian massacres as an example of what the word meant. Anyone who comitts a crime and gets away with it will do anything it can to try to prove they didn’t do it. That is what the books in this review are trying to do. They are trying to justify that Armenians were ‘relocated’ which cannot be denied. It cannot be denied because the Armenians are the indigenous people of Anatolia and the inheritors of the cultures dating back over 8000 years. The Turks are newcomers from central Asia ariving about 900 years ago. Now there are less than 50,000 Armenians left in Anatolia and over 60 million Turks. Armenian monuments continue to be destroyed to remove traces that the Armenians ever lived there. Historians such as Guenter Lewy and McCarthy are like defense lawyers paid by the accused. They will write whatever they can to disprove the Armenians suffered Genocide. The documentation proving the Armenias suffered genocide is so overwhelming that it is only the hardcore Turkish nationalists, paid lobbyists and the very ignorant who will claim otherwise.
Michael
How convenient that you defer to the reasons that this author of yours gives for an Armenian population of only 1.5-2 million during the end of Ottoman times. The Ottomans purposely underestimated Armenian population figures for their political aims, i.e. to prove to western powers that the Armenians were not a significant portion of the Eastern provinces and thus did not deserve special treatment.
This is a lie. The Ottomans did not do any such thing. Famous historians have proven that they were honest, that they reported the numbers as they saw them. Their numbers date back for many decades, and are all quite trustworthy. The reasons they were:
1. They were meant for the Ottoman government itself, not for foreign governments - we have only seen those numbers after the government collapsed
2. The Ottoman government taxes the Christians extra. Not to count half of them would mean a gigantic loss of money
The ones who have been faking population numbers in the Ottoman Empire, however, have been the Christian minorities. The Greek, Bulgarians, Serbs and Armenians have all done it.
This does not mean that it’s likely that Armenians were/are inflating their numbers. You’re propaganda isn’t even logical, even in the face of obvious explanations. You get a sick joy from diminishing the suffering of Armenians I presume. It’s very sad.
Your argument does not hold any water; I argue that there could not have been 1.5 million Armenians who killed, thus I am "diminishing the suffering." No I’m not. The ones who died suffered tremendously.
However, the cause for their suffering was not the Ottoman government, or any racial hatred from the Ottomans towards Armenians; rather, it was the determination, hatred and passion of their fellow Armenians who were more than willing to let their fellow Armenians suffer so that they could create Armenia, a new independent nation-state, founded on lands where Moslems had formed the majority for centuries.
Also; it’s interesting to see that you - and people like you - once again throw in personal insults. It’s obvious that you all cannot debate points, arguments. Instead, you simply try to silence critics by lashing out at them personally.
How’s that strategy paying off for you guys nowadays. Not so good anymore, huh?
Ara
Oh, Michael. You’re a funny one. But entertaining. In a macabre way.
ALINA
To all who is going to read "a must" books i’ll advise also to have a look at Armenian sources with the photos and facts. No need to write long speeches… http://www.genocide-museum.am/ The truth is always the truth….
Mary
You know Armenians need to move on and get a life, their country is in a economical sham,leaders are crooks steeling money,
they do not get alone with their neigboors,
and they are stuck with this So called Armenian genocide issue,
germans killed 22 million Russians and many more others,they moved on and used their efforts to build their country not bringing up old wars 50 years ago and try to undermine eachother,and this Armenian issue is 94 years old,and frankly we in USA do not care about it,
to be this strong willed movement must have some alterior motive behind it,can some one tell me what it is?do they want Turks to pay them like Germans did to Jews?if not what it is they want.
Elif
I wish I knew Mary. ‘Since they can not prove these allegations, they can never claim for money or land’ is the answer that I got. I am not so sure and comfortable though. These daydreamers are so full of double standards that for instance David is writing that we Turks are the ones who try so hard to deny something that we did but he is merely ignoring the millions of dollars spent by Armenian goverment as well as Armenians on forming this self fullfilling prophecy, for buying influence or to make the rest of the world believe in something that actually did not happen that way at all. How can you fight with ignorance, how can you fight with prejudices and how can you fight with this much hatred to a single nation? I really don’t know. They are showing the events of 1915 from their side only telling us that it is a proof that Turkey denying the genocide this hard is a proof that it actually happened but they do not even bother to think that, the so called truth they are trying to make this hard for the rest of world believe in, can this easily be counter claimed by these numerous historians that could stay unbiased for years. When it comes to Turks, for them, it is always Turks buy out these historians and when it comes to them, their sources are always objective and they don’t spend a bit on lobbying this.
Scarlet
Alina, if all we have to do is look at Armenian sources with photos to be convinced of an Armenian genocide, then what about the Turkish sources with photos of their ancestors massacres? Will that convince you that there was a Turkish genocide? But wait, since it is a Turkish source, it cannot be the truth I suppose…and the photos of the massacred must only be of the Armenians…well then how about our stories of our ancestors dying in the hands of the Dashnak armies, and what about the uncovering of hundreds of mass graves in Eastern Anotolia, in the Turkish and Muslim villages , which have revealed the remains of the murdered to be those of Muslims. The descendants of the victims still live in these areas today.These investigations have been going on for the last 25 years being conducted by Scientists and documented by the International media. Yet, this is always dismissed as ‘must be Armenians graves’ by Armenians. Let me put it to you this way, put the books aside, and the photos…and the sob stories of grandparents deaths…enough is enough and the time has come for the events to unfold thru an investigation of historical documents. Turkey has thousands which supports what Turks have been saying all along. The violence from Armenian revolutionaries which started in the 1880’s, and their plans to implicate the Turks of these murders and of what their real motives were behind the massacres and the lies are open and available to any person,scholar,historian. Russian archives already have revealed one document already, and it is NOT to the Armenians advantage. History must be based on facts and evidence and not by anti-Turkish campaigns, which are nothing but propoganda to sway people from learning about the real truth. Turks have never denied the deaths of your ancestors while Armenians continuesly ignore and deny the massacres of Turks. Yet, Turks are the ones being called deniers. You have become a hate-filled,genocide obsessed society and it is time to stop playing victims and end the self-pittying, exagerrated stories as if Armenians were the only ones killed and no one elses pain or memories matter. The justice that is being demanded for the deaths of Armenians are money and territories, as if this will automatically reduce your sufferings…it has nothing to do with Turkeys’ so-called denialism . So I ask you, what should Turkey ask for in return for the deaths of Ottoman Turks my dear Armenians?
aylin
For Mary:
You are right. Let us reevaluate Armenia’s persistence on the word ‘genocide’ from a different perspective:
Armenia’s attitude towards Turkey’s land integrity: Article 11 of the Armenian Declaration of Independence of August 23, 1990; refers to Eastern Anatolia of Turkey as Western Armenia and as such beholds that this area is part of Armenia. Since the Armenian constitution recognizes as a basis “the fundamental principles of the Armenian statehood and national aspirations engraved in the Declaration of Independence of Armenia”, it likewise accepts the characterization of Eastern Anatolia as Western Armenia and this, albeit indirectly, translates into the advancement of territorial claims. The Armenian politicians and school books call Eastern Anatolia of Turkey, ‘invaded mother land of Armenia’ and in Armenia the school children are being grown up being conditioned to be patriots to rescue their invaded land. Even the marches they sing are about this condition. The Armenians who write in such blogs that the Eastern Anatolia cities do not belong to Turkey, as if the present Eastern boundaries of Turkey was not determined by treaties of Gumru (1920), Moscow (1921) and the whole boundaries by Lausanne (1923) Treaties; after the Turkish Freedom War.
Additionally Armenia refused Turkey’s recurrent offers to commit an agreement declaring that each country recognizes the other country’s land integrity, in 1992 and later.
Why do the Armenians force Turkey to accept a genocide? The answer is hidden in a speech of the chief of Dashnak Party Hrant Markaryan who told that their efforts for the recognition of Armenian (so-called) genocide was not an isolated purpose but it was a part of the struggle for rescue of the West Armenia (Armenian Forum Vol2 No 4; Armenian Weekly On-line, 18 June, 4 July 2003). The Armenian then prime minister Andranik Markaryan told that the internationally recognition of (so called) Armenian genocide and demanding land from Ankara as ‘compensation’ was possible only after Armenia had strengthened and the Armenians should not have told that they demanded land from Ankara loudly and everywhere (Arminfo 26 May 2004). On one occasion President Kocharian stated that since today’s Armenia does not have the clout to advance such demands, doing so should be left to future generations at a time when conditions would hopefully be better suited to this end’. A poll taken in Armenia revealed that almost all youngsters in the Republic of Armenia wished to follow up with land claims from Turkey and 90% of them said Turkey must unequivocally accept genocide allegations. (Milliyet - April 11, 2006)
The world should not forget that Germany’s claim on Zudetland and Gdansk just because they were its historical lands caused burst of World War II! History is full of wars which broke up because of claims of states on their historical lands. If an item like the aforementioned Armenian item were present in the lawbook of Mexico claiming that Texas, Arizonna, New Mexico and California which were historical lands of Mexico, belonged to Mexico but invaded, would the American tolerate it?
Therefore the world should not overlook Armenia’s aggressivity, which is hidden behind their role of victim and should think about the price of their support to the Armenians very well.
Michael
Just to add something to the above commenter; and - when you look at those areas - you have to keep in mind that Armenians have NEVER been the MAJORITIES in those lands. They were the MINORITIES and the only reason they call it their historic homeland is that they have lived their for a long long time. What they forget to mention, however, is that OTHERS always lived there as well and that the TURKS have lived there for many centuries and formed the majority for many centuries as well.
It’s like Turkey saying they want to annex the Netherlands because we have a sizable Turkish minority.
ALINA
Scarlet J u better be a little attentive, i advised u to look at the armenian sources ALONG with the «must» books that editor offered… And it is very funny thing about Turkish genocide, do u really think that it was done by Armenians? I am glad that u discovered ONEJ Russian document not in the advantage of Armenians, there are million of Russian, American etc. Facts and documents …that are telling the truth. U can take a look at Morgentau’s memories, and many other diplomats who were witnesses of the Genocide and of the government policy on annihilation of the whole nation. Don’t u think that it is a necessity for the Turkish government to accept the evil not to repeat it again? Why do u think your government nowadays are trying to erase all traces of Armenian culture that was developed at the territory for many centuries? Germans are honest in front of themselves in the first place. Why do u think thousand Armenians in Turkey are afraid of revealing their roots? What we demand is justice, its the conscience to accept the evil and despite all false historians you can bring around, more and more people all around the world understand and see the truth, even within the Turkish society. And remember, no territory or money can recompense for the blood of innocent children!
nevber
Alina, I would advice you to look beyond your extremly narrow window of Turkish obsession and hate. Please write comments with out making them up or at least have some basis to your lies. You are making utter fool of yourself! First of all, Armenians have been living in peace and harmony with the Turks for many years… They are free to practice their religion to it’s full extend, able to mobilize and have their own schools, newspapers, magazines, community centers, churches and many other necessary organizations any ethnic group needs to survive to be a healthy part of the society are living in. Can you claim the same thing about Turks in Armenia. Not that any Turk would want to live in such democracy deprived country. But for arguments sake, do you think any Turk would be given the same freedom in your country? It is easy to regurgitate same old lies that has been passed on to your poor souls but looking in the mirror would help see the truth. Why don’t you try to help the poor little kids who are running around bare foot in Armenia rather then romantisize the past like it was something to fight for….
Scarlet
Alina , do not assume that my Government is the Turkish Government just because I do not agree with your distorted views. As for your statement of ‘there are thousands of Armenians in Turkey are afraid of revealing their roots’ is a ridiculous lie and one that is often repeated by the Diaspora Armenians who have never stepped foot in the country. Unless you know those ‘thousands’ of Armenians whom are hiding their roots, then I ADVISE you to stop making things up as you go along. Besides, there have been about 20,000 ethnic Armenians moving from Armenia to Turkey during the past several years, were they also hiding their roots ? or are you going to argue this little fact as well. Why are they NOT afraid to get Visas and travel to Turkey , why are they even stepping onto the soil of Turks who committed ‘genocide’ on their ancestors? The one thing I actually do agree with you on is there is no compensation for lives that are lost…so what does Armenia want by trying to get Turkey to admit to a genocide that did not take place…just an apology? I think you need to read more of YOUR Armenian sources that you’ve been telling people about and you will get your answer as to why, which is no big secret. And the only denialists I see are the Armenians who never acknowledge the deaths of Turks and Muslims where as Turks and the Turkish Government have at least admitted to the massacres during a war. Now go back to your ‘countless’ genocide books so you can be more convinced of how bad the Turks are.
Richard
Scarlet, You might be interested by an article written by Amberin Zaman (Turkey correspondent for the Economist) in the Turkish paper Taraf, describing hidden Armenians in the village of Tokat: http://www.taraf.com.tr/yazar.asp?id=11 Also here is a television documentary titled “Turkey’s Hidden Armenians”: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h69Zz0sV0GY Finally, a young Turkish filmmaker has recently made a documentary “Whispering Memories” about the village of Geben and those Armenians who survived by hiding their origins: http://whispering-memories-docu.blogspot.com/
Ara
The points several of you make about a minority of Armenian revolutionaries do not mean that a counter-massacre of any equal extent was committed by Armenians against Turks, nor that the murders match the definition of it being state sanctioned massacre to eliminate a race of people. The point is that there was a state sanctioned (this being the operative term) relocation and mass-murder of nearly all Armenian subjects of the empire, not limited by any means to the minority of revolutionaries, nor only to the vulnerable areas found on the eastern front of the empire.
Thus, flipping the genocide term around and accusing Armenians of themselves being guilty of what they wish Turks to admit to is complete and utter nonsense. Facts are facts friends. No use getting offended by them at this stage, more than 90 years later. It’s truly amazing how blind Turkish nationalism is, especially on this sad excuse for a blog and its very strange obsession with the Armenian genocide.
Ara
Also, as to the point of Armenians living comfortably and freely in today’s Turkey (let’s forget the past for a moment), that is complete hogwash. I personally have many acquaintances who come from the community of Istanbul Armenians, and they all attest to discriminatory practices and numerous difficulties especially regarding property ownership, government service, etc. Yes, they aren’t killed on the streets (save for Hrant Dink), forced to relocate, or massacred and raped en masse as they were in 1915, but let me put it to you all this way, would you wish to be an Armenian in Turkey today, much less in 1915? Would you even wish it upon your enemy? No wonder the community is dwindling. If a country won’t even acknowledge your painful shared past, if discussing the spillt blood of your ethnic brethren is considered anathema, if your patriarch is forced to act as a pawn to prevent violence and backlash, where exactly is all this Turkish goodwill and innocence that you all talk about being manifested.
Cut the crap guys and open your eyes.
David
Dear Michael Van Der Galien you state "you have to keep in mind that Armenians have NEVER been the MAJORITIES in those lands. They were the MINORITIES and the only reason they call it their historic homeland is that they have lived their for a long long time"
If you are so confident of the statement you are making then please give the readers an approximation of the percentage of Non-Armenians in what is referred to Geographically as "Armenia" (now eastern Turkey) before the year 1071A.D (Seljuk Turk invasion). And for the centuries that followed. What are your sources? How do you know the Armenians were not majorities when maps from 700BC to the late 19th century referred to the area as Armenia? And don’t give McCarthy as a source as late 19th century population data was politically shrouded.
It may be true that by the end of the 19th century the total number of Moslems in the Armenian provinces were slightly more than Armenians however when you break up the Moslems into ethnicities (Kurds, Turks, Arabs, Persians, Circassians, Alevi), the Armenians were the single most numerous ethnic group. In fact, in the province of Van, the Armenians outnumbered the total Moslem population before 1915. The Armenian Genocide can also be referred to as "Demographic engineering" by the Turkish government.
You also state "It’s like Turkey saying they want to annex the Netherlands because we have a sizable Turkish minority". Again you make an incorrect analogy. It is like Turkey invading the Netherlands, slowly Turkifying and Islamifying the Dutch over hundreds of years, turning their churches into Mosques, claiming their foods, architecture and music as Turkish, an then during a world war killing the remaining Christian Dutch. Finally, the Turks claim that Deutchland is their homeland and the Dutch have always been a minority anyway. If you read all the litertaure of Turkish nationalists, like Zia Gokalp etc. They all refer to their origins as being from central Asia. In fact, the Turkish language is a branch of the Ural Altaic languages akin to the central Asia languages of Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan etc. Your assertions and analogies are totally false and reflect your ultranationalist persuasion.
The Armenian Genocide was executed by the Turks to create a ‘Fait accompli’ an ‘accomplished fact’ a Turkey without its indigenous Armenians. You and your website are trying to perpetuate this act by spreading false information.
nevber
Ara, Ohhh how interesting, if Turkey and Turks were so evil, why do thousands of Armenian illegal domestic workers flood to Turkey every year? If they hate the Turks so much and are afraid to live among us, why do they choose to get a job that requires cleaning and picking up after us, living in our homes, eating our food, taking care of our children with out paying a single tax Lira from their wages? And most importantly, why do NOT a single Turk go to Armenia but many many more come to Turkey? You are purposefully distorting the truth and spreading lies and false information to create an environment where hate for Turks come natural to your followers. Now, as a Turk would I wish to live in Armenia? NOWAY! I would be too afraid to be insulted, beaten and many other horrible things that can happen to a person everyday. And the reason is because being a Turk in Armenia is like being an African American during the 60’s. There is no respect for my culture, language, religion and identity. And as you have stated in your last sentence, “CUT THE CRAPE AND OPEN YOUR EYES”….
nevber
I would like to also add; Turks can talk and explain their side until the end of time, but will not be able to get through to a single Diaspora Armenian’s mind. The same old lies are regurgitated and told over and over again!
Ara
Ok nevber, go talk to any Istanbul Armenian. I wasn’t speaking about recent immigrants to Istanbul from Armenia who are all across the world, not just lovely Istanbul. If you think that a small trickle of these immigrants, a couple of chartered flights, akhtamar island, etc show Turkish goodwill and somehow make up for genocide you are sorely mistaken. Think as you wish though.
Elif
Ara, I have drafted a long response for you and then I thought, what the heck, it is not worth it cos you can not fight with outbursts of ignorance. You can not fight with people who have not studied the subject a bit but have so many things to say about it (the sources are always Armenian goverment, ancestor testimonies or even stories of people like Morgenthau). You are so full of lies and you have deviated from reality so much, I do not think I can bring you back to normal waters. Hope one day you will understand what I mean. So I ‘cut the crap’ and went directly to the real agenda here which is obviously land or money. So to you to Alina, don’t you ever dare to show as if Turkish goverment or Turks in particular are not sympthazing with Armenians or they are not accepting the tragedic results of the relocation order or other events of 1915. You know as well as I do the part which Turkish goverment or Turks are not accepting, but you happened to forget to put it here. Don’t you ever dare to show that the only victims here are Armenians and as if an apology from Turkish Goverment to Armenians will suffice. I am so sick and tired of Armenians playing the emotion card as if Turks’s lost ones do not count or matter. Oh sorry Ara with your logic they do not count since the number of lives of Turks taken is smaller than the lives of Armenians taken, right? Emotion card is not working any longer to support your forged witness testimonies. If you want land through long –term plans of your goverment then you will have to fight and get it. Making the rest of the world believe in your version of history to be able to use the ‘G’ word via spending millions of dollars and through extensive lobbying works of your Diaspora won’t entitle you to land out of Turkey. However I agree with you Alina for the part that nothing will bring back my family’s loved ones who were lost during those events. Attack Turkey continously through anti-turkish propaganda and when Turks defend themselves back automatically, say to yourselves that ‘Ohh Turks are denying so there is a genocide’. What a self fullfilling prophecy! And Richard, what Scarlet meant there about Armenians not having to hide their identities is different then what you put here. You are comparing apples and oranges. Have you ever researched events leading to 1915? Maybe you have but you did not want to put it here just to be able to twist and bend realities like Armenians, if you are not one already. Turks stroke back to attacks of Armenian rebellions. Of course not every Armenian was a rebellion and to punish a vast majority of Armenians for something that some of them did was wrong but when you evalute the issue in context of 1915 and WW1 when Ottoman Empire was attacked from all around and Armenians, either rebelling or if not rebelling allying or sympathizing with enemy against Ottomans (after so many years of living in peace together), flash news for you, you are naturally going to be regarded as a betrayer. So when some of the Armenians had to hide their roots back then NOT NOW, what does this show to you? Also as for your sources, I think you should also make reference to the part where it is indicated that those Armenians who had to hide their indentities back then could come out long ago but either with old habit or else, they do not want to. Guys, I was born in Turkey, I passed all my life in Turkey and I am still living and working in Turkey and therefore stop bullying people around about Armenians being put pressure on or else. Also please stop sending your unemployed to Turkey if Turkey is this intolerant to Armenians. Just create job opportunties for your own people in your own country if you will ever be able to. And then let’s discuss which is more dangerous, to live as a Turk in Armenia or to live as an Armenian in Turkey. David, what are you trying to say? Please make yourself clear cos otherwise I am going to take this out of it: Armenia has the right to claim land out of Turkey because their population was the highest among other ethnic groups back then. Therefore they rebelled and therefore they started an ethnic cleansing of Muslims in 1880s and when Turks stroke back and took precautions (although managed poorly by Ottoman Authorities) and Armenians killed, then this became an intentional mass murder of whole or part of a nation (with your putting whole). Armenians living in Anatolia long before (in whatever number) gives the right to them to attack and kill innocent ones at the end of 19th century through rebelling. I do not want to awake you from the dream you are in but history is full of land wars and fights. How many Indians are left in America (indians being the natives of the land) today? Does this make 16 English colonies sent to the continent committers of a genocide? How many Aborjins are left in Australia (aborjins being the natives of the land) ? Again does this make England a committer of a genocide? Indeed I am now comparing very different events with each other but you are so full of denial, I can not awake you elsewise. If you accept that these are genocide, then to your logic yes Turks are committers of a genocide crime because they had to take precautions for rebellions. Michael, I sincerely appreciate your efforts to spread reality to world about the events before, during and after 1915 with your objective writing and sources. This is not a compliment or anything, this is a fact. I saw your Dutch group in facebook about the issue and joined already. It is so encouraging to see foreigners like you who are after reality only cos when you look at Turkey, we are so little in number to defend ourselves against this self fullfilling prophecy that long gone out of control. This is most probably because of the comfort most of the Turks take in the fact that we did not commit such a crime and therefore Armenia can not do anything about it.
Jonathan
The Armenian relocations (Tehcir Law) was one of the biggest population movements ever planned by a government. The simple fact that so many Armenians survived as a result of the Ottoman government spending money, giving allowances to Armenians (confirmed by Ottoman documents and consuls), bringing them food and drink (confirmed by European consuls and missionaries), allowing them to have Raildroad tickets (as confirmed by American consuls who were there) shows that what happened to the Armenians was a failed rebellion and massive migration, not genocide.
Telling us that the inventor of the word, Raphael Lemkin believed the word may be used in relation to what happened to Armenians, is not proof that the LEGAL TERM of genocide applies. Raphael Lemkin was not a historian, he wasn’t there either.
Claiming to others that Armenians were once a majority back in BC times shows your lack of all logic. The Tatars were a majority in Russia once, and the Mongols were a majority in China and Afghanistan once, does that mean they suffered Genocide?
"there are million of Russian, American etc. Facts and documents …that are telling the truth" Yes and they all seem to point to Ottoman innocence and the truth about the severity of the Armenian Rebellion.
Michael
Ok nevber, go talk to any Istanbul Armenian. I wasn’t speaking about recent immigrants to Istanbul from Armenia who are all across the world, not just lovely Istanbul. If you think that a small trickle of these immigrants, a couple of chartered flights, akhtamar island, etc show Turkish goodwill and somehow make up for genocide you are sorely mistaken. Think as you wish though.
You should be ashamed of yourself. Another Armenian hate merchant, a fake Christian, actively preaching the gospel of hatred for all things Turkey.
How’s that all-consuming hate working for you?
Ara
How’s constantly lieing working out for you? Unlike you I personally know many Armenians from Turkey and I know the psychological pressures they face. If you choose not to accept this then don’t. I could really care less what you have to say on any Armenia-Turkey related issue because your mission is one of propaganda.
Ara
Johnathan, don’t make us laugh. Food, water, railroad tickets… who are you kidding? Laughable. Tragic.
Jannaan
Armenians are exerting psychological pressure on Turks in California, Michigan, Boston, Toronto, etc. Proving that racial hatred Armenians felt in 1915 continues to this day. It is way beyond clinging on to one’s own kind. Racial hatred is the main ingredient of genocide and Armenians are guilty of it.
Elif
Ara, I was so right in my initial opinion about you. You just keep coming back with your nonsense and then you go accuse people of making propaganda. It really started to amuse me. What psychological pressure are you talking about? There should be a psychological pressure on Armenians though you are right, and it should stem from the fact that these Armenians as people living in Turkey and winning their bread from Turkey should feel ashamed that their goverment is accusing Turkey of a crime that it did not commit in the first place. They should feel psychologically pressured when they look at the faces of their fellow Turkish friends.
It is so obvious that you started to believe in the lies you spread as most of other Armenians. You are even denying official documents and evidences. Oh wait, there are witness testimonies to prove the genocide and stories. Sorry my bet. Amusing…
Ara
lol.
Scarlet
Richard,I’ve looked up the sights you’ve mentioned. Whispering Memories is a documentary on a community of Turkish-Armenians in Turkey whose ancestors had converted to Islam and hid their Armenian identity to be spared by the relocation in 1915. What’s amazing is that most of these people today chose to remain Muslims and finally were able to reveal their true identities with no discrimination. Anyhow, I don’t see how this particular issue applies to other Turkish-Armenians that practice their faith freely and speak their own languages. It is NOT a crime to be an Armenian in Turkey Richard, they do not walk around hiding behind masks to hide their identities as most Diaspora Armenians are foolishly led to believe. The other sight is the one from YT where a Turkish woman discovers her grandmother was Armenian and was adopted by Turks and raised as Turkish. Richard, many children were orphaned during the massacres of the Turks and Armenians. Many Armenian children were sent to orphanages set up by Christian Missionary workers and were clothed and fed (please refer to the Near East Relief organizations in Library of Congress where this is documented) while Turkish and Muslim (Kurdish) children perished and died from starvation and sickness. Some Armenian children as well as the Turkish ones were taken in by Turks and Armenians and raised as their own, without any prejudices ,regardless of who they really were. Some of the kids grew up not ever learning of their true identities, and some found out later on….And your point is Richard? And I also have a comment for David …Calling the Editor of this page of being an ultranationalist, when he is not even a Turk and accusing him of spreading ‘false information’ because you happen to not agree with his views is ridiculous . Also, your statement of ‘Armenian genocide was executed by the Turks to create a ‘Fait accompli’ , an accomplished fact, a Turkey without its indigenous Armenians’ is nothing but rubbish! And it does not support the fact that during the height of the Armenian massacres of the Turkish population in 1914 and 1915, the Ottoman Foreign Minister, many Ottoman Ambassadors to European states , several Ottoman Ministers of state and dozens of Lt. Governors were ALL Armenians. I don’t know about you, but that doesn’t sound like Armenians were so oppressed to me! And if this ‘accomplishment of a genocide of the Armenians’ was accomplished, we wouldn’t be still here today debating this after 90 years would we! The relocation ended with around 300,00 Armenians moving to other lands…(Those damn Turkish troops, how did they allow those 300,000 people to escape from their sight…on foot, no less!) another example of a failed ‘accomplishment of genocide, so what are we arguing about. The majority of the Armenians worldwide who have been conditioned with terrible images of the deaths of their ancestors, without any mention of the pain and sufferring they have caused on the Ottoman Turks, have potrayed themselves as the victims and blame the current Turkish Government by shamefully Politicizing the events as a genocide and making it a part of U.S Policy! Sounds to me like denial! Turkey has confronted its past over and over again by opening their archives, inviting Armenia for a joint commission, ‘asking’ to be taken to International court (The accused asking to be tried for genocide, can you imagine that!) and even acknowledged the massacres of Armenians years ago, but this is still not acceptable for the Armenians. Why? Because the term ’genocide’ is a way to Politically and legally make claims on territories and be ‘paid’ for their tragedies. The only problem with this is, for the Armenians that is,Once a Resolution is passed accepting the genocide of the Armenians, the United States would have broken a UN law, which states, that the term genocide can only be applied to those countries that have been accused, tried in a court of law and found guilty thru facts and evidence by a judge and jury! Now …is this so difficult to understand?
nevber
Ara, you have said that you seem to know many Armenians from Istanbul. Well, so do I! Just because you know a few people who seem to have an opinion about Turkey does not justify the fact that ALL Armenian-Turks feel the same way. I also know many Armenian-Turks. (I purposefully use the word Armenian-Turks, because they are exactly that!) They are very happy living in Istanbul; they feel Turkish culturally and can practice their religion/culture in total freedom. How narrow you see the world. You know a few people and assume ALL feel and think the same way. Do you apply this type of thinking to everything in your life? If you do, then you have a pitiful existence. I feel sorry for your loved ones around you. What narrow view of the world. How judgmental!
Elif
Scarlet, Armenians are buying time and through that time of course buying influence rapidly especially after 2000s. If they accept Turkey’s suggestion of taking this issue to international court now, since they have not bought enough influence yet, they very well know that they are going to lose in court. However if they, say, wait another 10 , 20 years and buy enough number of countries out accepting the events as genocide, who knows, then maybe they will be able to buy influence over the judges of international courts as well. Because at the bottom of all these denial lies the emotional and psychological propaganda that Diaspora is using to make people sympathize with their so-called cause.
Ara
Nevber, what on earth are you talking about? If you would like to be part of a truncated and emasculated community of only 40,oo0 from a peak of several million only 90 years ago in a country of immense nationalism and chauvinism, then by all means go ahead and become an Armenian in Turkey. Change your last name, play by the rules, and don’t mourn your dead and swallow the lies that your patriarch feeds the press at least externally. Must be psychologically fun.
As I said, Armenians aren’t living in danger of imminent death or destruction today, but that’s what you keep implying I’m saying, which couldn’t be further from the truth. My point is that there are rules to follow and limits to patience, and the picture is not nearly as rosey as you paint it. But again, if you wish to think so, go ahead, live in your bubble, your narrow world view that you seem to ascribe to me.
And this by no means applies to the Armenians, but also to the Greeks and any other minority population in modern Turkey. SUBJUGATION psychologically after the already century old demographic subjugation.
You’re amusing though. I kind of like you, even if you don’t like me.
Scarlet
Ara..what makes you so convinced that Turkish-Armenians have changed their last names and ‘cannot mourn’ their ancestors deaths..have you been watching too much YT lately? And FYI, the majority of the Istanbul Armenians are the descendants of the Ottoman Armenians from Istanbul whom were not affected by the violence in Eastern Turkey. You know, the ones that were spared for unknown reasons, from ’ MASS exterminations and the infamous telegram of Talat Pasha’s policy of ‘kill every Armenian man, woman, child’ which just happen to pop out of nowhere after his murder. The telegram must have been applied only to Anotolian Armenians…give me a break Ara.
Ara
The preponderance of -oglu last names among their ranks. You give me a break. There’s a story behind each name change.
Ara
Once again, another person attributes an implication to my writing which I never actually stated. I didn’t say that the Istanbul Armenians included former Anatolian Armenians (although they likely do in part), I said that they’re the only community left out of the former millions that existed in what is now Turkey.
Le Petite Chat
i don’t think i can live up to quality of this discussion but it appears the chain of association flanking genocide is certainly anachronistic in some sense. Not just the verbal part of it. Could be systematic extermination if one likes it more. So in a sense it’s more like the mental associations rather than definitions of these words, if any, that counts in the discussion. Some historians argue that it was not a genocide cause they have in mind a model case of ‘genocide’, possibly of jews by Nazis during the Second World War. I honestly don’t know much about either but first thing coming to my mind (which is fertile with modern myths) is the retaliatory nature of an armed conflict. Somehow, genocide does not go there whatsoever is the numbers. Well… politicians are free to promote linguistic tokens when discussing facts. What else they are supposed to do? Or the other way around: what do you really believe when you say it was genocide and what do you really believe when you say it wasn’t? If everybody agrees on solid historical facts (if there could be such) than it’s merely a verbal discussion to call it genocide or not; if they don’t, that would mean, (well, at least, i think it would) that history of the era is poisoned with propaganda and distortion, whatsoever were the facts, now every piece of evidence is questionable. Who is going to judge you? What scientific or historical community? You can always say ‘i very much doubt the authenticity of that’ or ‘look.. how’s about this?. That’s why, i think, the controversy has become the business of irrelevant international bodies where people vote the truth.
Chuck
"You should be ashamed of yourself. Another Armenian hate merchant, a fake Christian, actively preaching the gospel of hatred for all things Turkey. How’s that all-consuming hate working for you?"
Michael - I am shocked that you would talk this way
I mean, when I slam on leftists it is because they sling the hate card first and abandon the argument and avoid your best arguments and evidence.
Hey man let me give you some advice, when you are dealing with a genuine hater, creame them with logic and evidence first, then explain how their intellectual dishonesty can only be explained by hate or other such irrationality….then and only then should you have a ball mocking them.
Elif
Chuck, not that I am defending Michael, cos he does not need defending anyway but he gave all the logic and evidence in his above article if you read it to the very end.
These ‘genuine haters’ are now in such a position, you may need to jump right into your 3rd step
And Scarlet, I stopped trying to make sense out of what Ara is writing like 10 comments ago. I suggest you do the same:)
Selin
Ara, you got the "oglu" thing completely backwards. In fact, the reason why there are so many "ians" with Armenians is because it’s an Ottoman tradition to call someone son of somebody else. But anyways, it’s a small detail.
Okay, here’s the thing with the "secret" Armenians: IF there are indeed a lot of them currently living as Muslims in Turkey, which is a story that I actually tend to believe, that means that the purported 300 thousand or 600 thousand Armenians who are unaccounted for according to census records during the relocation did not actually die, but they CONVERTED to Islam, or a good portion of them at least.
Ara, the story of mass numbers of converted Armenians living as Muslims in Turkey today actually CONTRADICTS the genocide allegations. That’s precisely why Armenian lobbyists have been very hesitant to promote this story. Halaçoglu actually makes this point very clear in the sense that these people currently living in large numbers as Muslims in Anatolia explains the unaccounted Armenians who seem to have died in large numbers during the "Tehcir".
He is the head of the Turkish Historical Society and someone that your lobbyists are vehemently opposed to. For him to announce his support for the conversion thesis should actually make you guys worried.
Chuck
Hi Elif - Obviously, I was just jazzing him a little bit
nevber
Selin, no matter what kind of new revelations are revealed, or new information that arise, one can never convince/change the Armenian Diaspora’s mind. It’s almost like they are lost in this black hole of hate, suffering, agony and pain related to almost 100 years ago. They live with the so called memories of their ancestors and are unable to look forward to a bright future. The elderly or the wise ones in their community have created a pretty sad and angry generation. All they are obsessed with is to make the Turks come to their knees and beg for forgiveness. Give up their land and huge compensations for all the money they spend in the last 60 or so odd years on this issue. It’s almost an “orgasmic” thought that has taken over their soul. We have read articles, stories, so called news that are all related to this particular issue. Having said that, there are those power and vote hungry vulture like politicians who do not give a damn about the Armenian pain or distorted history which Turks shoulder with huge burden. All they care about is, “who will cover my election campaign”. So we poor souls spend so much money from a hard earned salary to support the system which purposefully continues the Genocide issue. Think about it. The politicians make so much money out of this. So, it is to their advantage to have this issue alive. At least in Europe and USA this fact is true. History is only an “interpretation” of the winners. However, both the Armenian Diaspora and the Politicians under estimate the Turks ONCE again! We may have been silent for various reasons but our voice is here and we are here to stay. I would also like to add, for those of you who may think the languages of the commentators are a bit aggressive or sarcastic, well this maybe true but after a while it becomes kind of boring to repeat the same thing over and over again. So the comments become either nonsense or funny. If you are outsider trying to make sense of the discussion, then just stick with us and try to have an open mind about what EXACTLY happened 100 years ago…. Instead of falling for the regurgitated lies, please understand that this is BIG BUSINESS… where a lot of people make money. A little advice to people like ARA, who seem to think that pro Turkish stance, is either “funny, cute, amusing or entertaining”, please do yourself a favor and find something that has real meaning in your life. Do not pass this hate to your child or the next generations… stop the abuse…!
Scarlet
It’s taken me years to realize how pointless all this debating this! No matter what Turkey has as evidence ,it’s continuelly rejected as propoganda by Armenians without even having the descency to check out the sources ! Not one document so far has been proven to be forged by any Historian, not even by Armenian Historians, with the exception of a few that have actually taken the time to research some Ottoman archives..Yet, many of the so-called documents that the Diaspora has produced over the years, have been confirmed as forged or fakes by legal experts, and rejected by the United Nations back in 2000 . This, none the less, still managed to find its way right into the H.Res106 Resolution which was accepted by our Politicians whom some of them do not even know their A…..s from their elbows. Their decision to condemn Turkey of genocide came after a viewing of the documentary ‘Armenian Genocide’ ( the same one aired by PBS due to their large Armenian-American contributors) financed by Armenians, presented by the Lobbyists, along with a nice little prayer and blessing by the Armenian Archbishop! But a few days prior to this, the same House Committee rejected the viewing of ‘Armenian Revolt’ made by American filmmaker due to the lobbysts pressures! Tell me ladies and gentlemen… while accusing Turkey of forcing a ’GAG RULE" on the U.S Government…who IS really in control here , and who’s orchestrating the propogandas!!
Ara
It is funny and entertaining, this tiny cocoon of ass kissing amongst denialists on this website. And no, I don’t have the oglu thing backwards, my friends have oglu last names because their families purposefully changed them to make it easier to get by in Turkey.
Enjoy yourselves though.
Scarlet
Nevber, I read your previous post about the Armenians tying ‘to buy time’ w the Internatinal courts until ‘they can buy them out too.’..and it occurred to me..what is Turkey waiting for ….Let the accused apply to them first, The Government should bring up charges demanding justice for the massacres of the Muslims. Once the official papers are filed , Armenians have no other choice but to go and defend themselves and counter-claim. And Sephardic-Jews of Turkey should also do the same, for there is tremendous amount of evidence of what Armenian armies have done to their ancestors when they refused to revolt against the Empire.
Elif
Scarlet, I was the one making the comment that you referred to and it is a good idea.
nevber
Heeeyooo for the 20000322112224444 times, the word "deniers" came up again! WAW, Ara you are extremly original… I guess when you run out of ideas to smear, you go back to your good old comfortable "memorized words"… little one, why don’t you run to your Turkish hating blogs and tell them how original you were…
nevber
Elif, I agree with you… Great idea!
Scarlet
Sorry about that Elif, I thought the comment was from nevber..anyhow..as you can clearly see from Ara’s comments, he avoids certain questions directed at him by giving an unrelated answer…the only ones whom are denialists here are the Armenians…And I would like to also comment on the word’oglu’ that Ara seems to think every Armenian from Turkey has at the end of their names….Many Turks as well as Armenians have this at the end of their names, for if Armenians were really in fear of revealing their identities, then they could just as easily change their entire names or just drop the ‘oglu’ and the ‘ian’…all together. I don’t understand the logic in this for it defeats the purpose of ‘hiding’ ones nationality. For instance..Hagop Cigercioglu….Is a Turk suppose to believe Hagop is Turkish because of his ‘Turkish’ last name without considering the first? To my knowledge, the majority of Turkish-Armenians do have Armenian first names. So Ara, enough of this silly issue already.
Elif
Scarlet, as I told before, I suggest you stop trying to make sense out of what Ara is writing, you too nevber cos otherwise in my opinion you will find yourselves in vicious cycles.
As for the surname and name issue I agree with you Scarlet. I have lots of Jewish friends and my family has Armenian neighbours and what you tell applies if not to all of them, to some of them. Either they have a foreign name and a Turkish surname or the other way around but we understand very clearly their origins.
Scarlet
Guess what Ara..you’re in this cacoon of ‘ass-kissing’
sight with us, because you ARE interested in what we have to say, whether you admit it or not, and maybe, just maybe you ‘ll learn that most of US are not that different then YOU.
Elif and Nevber, you must read the book ‘Genocide of Truth". I have been corresponding with Mr. Aya for the past year now and he is, by far one of the most intelligent people I have ever encountered. He is an active member of the Turkish Diaspora and has written this book from foreign sources. In other words, it is not a book just about his views and the views of Turks only. Good Luck
ALINA
Let me conclude this very "open-minded" discussion of pro-turkish blog, Armenians and Turks will always have their own truth. Although Turks accept that there were atrocities, they are getting into nervous tremor when others called it Genocide. So u can call killings of 1,5 million people "great achievement of Turkish government", the history will remain the same. And its not your fault, it was the policy of your government, so just
be brave to accept the truth!
To the editor of the blog who has so many turkish friends and successful benefactors, i’ll advise to continue learning and studying, and hopefully with time he will be able to see the history.
Ara
No Scarlet, I’m not at all interested in what you have to say, not in the least bit. It’s purely the entertainment value that brings me back here.
Michael
It’s funny i read how every turkish individual is critizing armenians for not opening the archives.
"Turkey suggested formation of a commission of historians to study the fact of Genocide. When in Moscow, the President Sargsyan said the Armenian side doesn’t mind formation of a commission but only after opening of the border."
In the news i recently read how some turkish tourists went to armenia and they had a great time. They said that everyone was polite, friendly with them, no problems occured and that they were going to visit again. All the theories of how Armenians hate turks is bullshit. its mostly the armenian community abroad, the armenians in armenia want to open the borders with turkey.
recently armenia’s under 19 soccer team vs. turkey’s under 19 soccer team in armenia. both captains shook hands, no violence in the crowd between fans, no violence between players nothing happened.
Everyone criticizes armenia but how come no one is talking about how armenias president invited turkeys president to armenia to watch the armenia - turkey world cup qualifying game.
About armenians converting. what i learned was that many people were given the choice: convert or die. many converted to save there lives and the rest were either killed or exiled.
My Grandmother: A memoir by Fethiye Cetin. Cetin is a Turkish human rights lawyer whose grandmother told her that she was actually Armenian and that she survived the Genocide:
For most of her life Seher a Muslim, has concealed her true Christian Armenian identity from her family. Having watched the massacre of those closest to them, Heranus ( Seher’s real name) and her mother and brother undertake the forced death march in 1915. Seized from her mother by a Turkish gendarme Heranus is then adopted into his family and separated from her own for ever.
Michael
Perhaps our Armenian friends should read Edward Tasji’s (in Turkish Tasçi) autobiography. He was the son of a Syrian Orthodox father and Armenian mother. He described the hate in the Armenian diaspora, which is destroying their own community. Furthermore, he calls on them to stop advocating a mythical genocide.
These individuals have not read that book, I am sure, but they should. It’s one Armenian trying to convince other Armenians to stop hating.
nevber
It is truly amazing to me to watch the persistence of blindness among the Armenian Diaspora. It is like writing to a wall! What are you all Masochist? Do you enjoy being hammered intellectually and historically over and over again? All your arguments have been clearly and efficiently been challenged and explained. All your stories have been disproved and your lies exposed. What is the problem here? What else do you need? My only conclusion is, you people just love to argue for the sake of argument because that is all you know. You do not give a damn about the truth? Your words are repetitive, your comments are stale, your arguments are getting old and your characters are extremely boring. Your obsession of the Turks has taken over your lives. Boy, how important we all feel. Thank you for putting us in a pedestal like that! I mean, I knew we were interesting people with very rich history, beautiful country, wonderful and warm people. But I did not know we were millions of Armenians wet dream! It would be interesting to watch when you guys will wake up to find out it’s only a wet dream…
Ara
Intellectually and historically hammered? Did I miss something? What on earth are you talking about? It would seem to me that any casual observer would conclude the exact opposite. Amusing.
Scarlet
Michael- While the Armenian President has invited the Turkish President to Armenia to watch a soccer match, Turkish President has not yet agreed and I sincerely hope that he does . I personally believe that this is an admirable gesture from an Armenian President and one that I hope will not be met with arrogance. He has also agreed to open their Ottoman archives..on the condition that the borders be opened first, this will be a tough one for Turkey when an ally has been under occupation for 16 years, which is the reason for the closed borders. However, I think they should go for it! Also, if you care to, please read my post from #31 regarding the video of the Turkish woman’s Armenian grandmother. It is a shame she felt she had to hide her identity her whole life.
To the editor,Michael, I had the honor of meeting Mr. Edward Tashji some 25 years ago. He always spoke proudly of his love for his country and revealed the lies of the Armenian Diaspora after havng researched and studied the archives of 3 countries for decades…he is sadly gone now and is honored each year by Turkish-Americans everywhere.His elderly Armenian wife carries on his legacy.
Scarlet
To Alina, your advice for the editor to continue to study and learn about the history of Turks and Armenians…until he accepts the idea of genocide is pointless. He is a non-Turk and has made up his own mind by studying the events objectively. You, on the other hand, will never understand this, for genocide is undisputable to you and others. Not only has the events been exagerrated and politicized to the point of nausea, but you cannot even look at Turks as intelligent people who have contributed to society and had their own rich history and culture…as our friend up there Ara is so surprised and amused by Nevbers comment.
Aram
In fact Armenians, some Turk writers and people, and the majority of western genocide scholars tell the truth about the Armenian genocide. I am ready to republish all this for all open-minded Turks. But first let’s see what some Turk writers think about the genocide:
On June 1, 2005, the Armenian "Marmara" online newspaper of Istanbul republished on its website (in Armenian) the article written by Ahmed Altan in "Gazetem" website on May 30 titled "We the Turks couldn’t agree with you the Turks". The following is my translation of the article from Armenian: "It was necessary that 30 thousand people died till the Turks understood that a Kurdish issue existed in the country. After burying 30 thousand young men we reverberated that we have a serious issue that needs to be solved. After sacrificing 30 thousand people before 15 years and spending nearly 400 billion dollars, we made revolution on this matter. And so-called revolution meant giving the Kurds permission to sing in their mother tongue. So far, Kurds are not allowed to teach in their mother tongue. Those who are applying for that are regarded as guilty persons by the Court of Cassation.
Now we have an Armenian issue. First of all we said: "There is no Armenian issue, only one-two persons died, but under war conditions that was normal". Then, the one-two number of dead people gradually went up to hundred thousands. It exceeded a half million and is on its way to reach one million. Now, like a school student, we say: "Yes, it is right, we killed them, but they also killed us". "We" refers to in four directions spread the Ottoman Empire, and "They" are the Empire’s subjects our Armenian compatriots. We try to prove that the compatriots in the Empire were equal to each other. It is possible that in the end we accept realities about the Armenian issue. But only God knows what will happen to us before we reach that point. Why are we behaving in such manner? In my opinion, this has two reasons:
First, which I couldn’t completely understand, is that we are unable to prepare qualified state officials. I don’t know whether this failure comes from our race, genes, habits, or religion, but I know that on this land we have strong-minded, steadfast, farsighted, and vigorous new generation. Second, doubtless the most bewildering thing is the unfortunate condition of so-called the education system. We, from the beginning to the end, teach our students lies as history. Yet, we accept the World War 1 as "a war waged by the Imperialists to fracture the Ottoman Empire". Thus, we mention superficially the war originated as a result of attacks of Ottomans on the foreign possessed territories.
In our history textbooks, we gave no place to Kurdish revolts, to Armenian massacres, to the unnamed crimes committed in countries in Balkans region, or to the economical results of the wars we were involved in without measuring our force. When we look at our history textbooks, we seem the greater "sacrificed people" in the history that gained the hostility of the whole world.
The infants grow up believing in these stories. The infant, who had never read about the Armenian carnage, when hearing the term "Armenian Genocide" gets mad thinking that the whole world is playing hostility to the Turks. The grievous conflict of Turk assemblage with realities begins in this way. During this conflict two parties of Turks emerge: The first party harshly refuses to doubt about the lies inculcated in their mind. Even though knowing the reality, this party will have the fear that when facing it the state and the assemblage will suffer great damage. The lasting past, a population reaching 70 million, and despite of all this, the way we crossed are not enough to dissipate the multitude psychosis created by our cowardice.
From the other side, there is another party of Turks who don’t startle from realities, believing that this assemblage can eliminate the difficulties created by the realities. I think that the conflict between the well-educated Turks, who receive the state’s support, and the Turks who don’t fear from the realities will continue for a long time. It will last as long as our timid Turks and state officials with insufficient capabilities comprehend that denying realities is insufficient to dissipate these realities. Till they admit this fact, it is not obvious what will happen to us in our struggle. It is only obvious that we will be unable to win over the realities.
Elif
Aram, if as a Turk I think there is a genocide or if as an Armenian you think there is not one, does this make the events of 1915 a genocide? Does a Turk thinking differently than the majority undermines the evidences? I doubt so. So therefore can you please skip to the part related to your western scholars’ evidences for ‘open minded’ Turks. But you should also promise on one thing that you will also be ‘open minded’ about evidences of western scholars that do not support your facts.
Aram
Elif, I am talking about historical facts and the opinion of the majority of genocide scholars. I also stated (as an example) the opinion of Ahmad Altan. You probably know Orhan Pamuk’s opinion too. Here, I’ll mention the opinion of the most important personality for the Turks, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk (the Father of the Turks).
In 1926 a Swiss journalist, Emile Hilderbrand interviewed Kemal , later known as Ataturk, who accused the Young Turks of the massacre of “millions of our Christian subjects”.The interview appeared in the August 1, 1926 issue of the San Francisco Examiner.It should be mentioned that in 1926 a Turkish group, including a number of Young Turks, attempted to assassinate Ataturk. The attempt failed and culprits were executed.Ataturk made the following statement to Emile Hilderbrand.“These left-overs from the former young Turk party, who should have been made to account for the lives of MILLIONS OF OUR CHRISTIAN SUBJECTS, who were ruthlessly driven en mass from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the republican rule. They have hitherto lived on plunder, robbery and bribery and become inimical to any idea, or suggestion to enlist in useful labour and earn their living by the honest sweat of their brow”.
In February, 2005, Orhan Pamuk said in an interview with a Swiss in February that "one million Armenians were killed in these lands and nobody but me dares to talk about it.". This was a clear reference to the Armenian Genocide. This comment led to several death threats, and inspired one local official to order the seizure and burning of his works.
scarlet
Aram, what language did the Swiss Journalist speak when conducting the interview with Ataturk and what country did this take place in…and were there any witnesses to this historical interview..also why are there so many Armenians and Greeks implicating Ataturk of giving the orders to kill millions of Armenians, if such an interview exists..has the authenticity been investigated…..Please post this issue (send a link)from the journal’s archive onto this sight, I am interesed in seeing this.
Kemal
No worries Scarlet, Ara’s assertion about such a statement by Ataturk is just another Armenian lie and falsification.
See Tashjian, James H., "On a ‘Statement’ Condemning the Armenian Genocide of 1915-18 Attributed in Error to Mustafa Kemal, Later ‘the Atatürk’", Armenian Review, Vol 35 (3), 1982, pp. 227-244.
The above citation is to an article written by James Tashjian and published by the Armenian Weekly in 1982, stating the fact that Ataturk never made a statement. The author James Tashjian was reportedly forced to leave the publication shortly afterwards.
Ataturk’s thoughts on the "Armenian question" penned by his own hand are below:
"[T]he possible cession of the Eastern Provinces to Armenia was the most important reason for [the Union for Defence of the National Rights of the Eastern Provinces] having been formed. They anticipated that this possibility might become a reality if those who tried to prove that the Armenians were in the majority in these provinces, claiming the oldest historical rights, were to succeed in misleading world public opinion by alleged scientific and historic documents and by perpetuating the slander that the Muslim population was composed of savages whose chief occupation was to massacre the Armenians. Consequently, the Society aimed at the defence of national and historic rights by corresponding methods and arguments."
Nutuk (Great Speech- English Language version), p. 4
"The assertions regarding the Armenian massacres were undoubtedly not in accordance with fact. For the Armenians in the south, armed by foreign troops and encouraged by the protection they enjoyed attacked the Muslims of their district.
Animated with the spirit of revenge, they pursued a relentless policy of murder and extermination everywhere. This was responsible for the tragic incident at Maras. Making common cause with the foreign troops, the Armenians had completely destroyed an old Muslim town like Maras by their artillery and machine-gun fire.
They killed thousands of innocent and defenceless women and children. The Armenians were the instigators of the atrocities, which were unique in history. The Muslims had merely offered resistance and had defended themselves with the object of saving their lives and their honour. The telegram which the Americans, who had remained in the town with the Muslims during the five days that the massacres continued, had sent to their representative in Istanbul, clearly indicates in an indisputable manner who were the originators of this tragedy.
Threatened by the bayonets of the Armenians, who were armed to the teeth, the Muslims in the Vilayet of Adana were at that time in danger of being annihilated."
Nutuk (Great Speech - English Language version), pp. 319-20.
Good try Ara. But once again, the ANCA propaganda machinery disinformation is revealed, and this time, by an Armenian.
And, wow, now you resort to citing Orhan Pamuk, a novelist, a writer of fiction, for proof. How so not impressive.
Kemal
For an elaborate detailed explanation of how the article Ara cites was revealed to be a forgery see www.tallarmeniantale.com/forger-Emile1926.htm
Ara
For a sad and detailed peer into the obsequious world of Turkish denialism, browse up and down this site.
Ara isn’t Aram btw, and vice versa.
Scarlet
Ara, check out the links Kemal has provided. An Armenian himself has admitted and wrote about the ‘fake’ interview of Ataturk…..no need for apologies, we all make mistakes. There is so much propoganda regarding this topic, one cannot keep up! Thanks Kemal.
nevber
Ara and his like minded friends are not remotely interested in finding out new information or revelations concerning the “Genocide” debate. If they were tiny bit curious personalities, at least they would check it out. But for them looking into the links we provide means finding out the truth and that must be avoided at all costs. The truth will be hard to face. I stopped making sense of what they write long ago. Now I am having fun seeing their desperation by bringing up false interviews, fictional writers and pretty mediocre journalist that have little credibility. By bringing these people up, they are only proving that we have “democracy” in Turkey and not much of it in Armenia… They can not claim, we silence dissenting voices, but we sure can claim that the non democratic country called “Armenia” does! This only makes their position weaker.
Elif
go nevber, by the way guys, aram and ara are different people I suppose so Kemal your responses are to Aram not Ara but seeing that they defend the same thing, either of whom your response goes to does not make much of a difference at the end.
aram, I am still waiting for your western scholar evidences and of course I know about Orhan Pamuk but my opinion about him has been pretty much pointed out in the above comments anyway.
David
Is Turkey Muzzling U.S Scholars?
www.insidehighered.com/layout/set/print/news/2008/07/01/turkey
This article says it all.
Unfortunately there is nothing Armenians can say or do which can change the minds of those who don’t want to face the truth. I have been researching at a micro level the fate of the Armenians of Afyonkarahissar. The Armenians of Afyon were renowned for their craftmanship and skills. They were Turkish speakers and had never harboured any revolutionaries. Afion was situated in western Anatolia far from the war zone. Yet, in the summer of 1915 approximately 10,000 of them were deported to the Syrian desert. Their church and homes were confiscated and used to house the Allied POW’s. When Baghdad fell, a newspaper correspondent Edmund Candler reports in 1917 the fate of those who were deported from Afion published in the NYT. The article can be viewed at www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=The_Armenian_Tragedy_-nyt191702
The church at Afyon is now a ruin, a home has been built on a part of it. I have before and after photos of it. The Armenian cemetery does not exist anymore. This is one micro example of the thousands of Armenian communities in Turkey who were uprooted and supposedly ‘relocated’. If relocation was the plan why have their churches and cemeteries been destroyed. In any case the reason why I give Afion as an example is its location. It was far from the war zone. The Armenian men of military age of Afion were conscripted into the Turkish Army. The remaining women and children posed no threat to Turkish national security. One cannot understand the systematic nature and magnitude of the Armenian genocide until they have conducted adequate research at both a micro and macro level. It is very easy to deny and make excuses but the documentation is so overwhelming.
The Armenian genocide is an incontestable fact.
David
By the way. Those who use the fact that thousands of Armenians survived in Syria and Lebanon as an example that the genocide did not occur need to realise one important fact. The Armenian genocide resulted in the largest humanitarian relief episode in human history. The American Committee for Armenian aand Syrian Relief and later called Near East Relief are attributed in saving the lives of 500,000 Armenians in both the Caucusas and the Middle East. In fact, the relief funds raised over 110 million dollars from 1915 to 1929. The humanitarian relief was unprecedented in human history. If it wasn’t for the humanitarian relief response from the western world almost all the deportees would have died as a result of starvation, exposure and disease.
Robert
One simple question to David:
If the goal of the Ottoman Turks / Muslims was to exterminate / genocide ALL Armenians from the Empire, why did they allow all of these Relief people to operate on Ottoman soil and save so many Armenians ???
Now, about simple math, considering that the Armenian population was close to 1.5 million around 1915, if I substract the 500,000 relocated survivors, then those that were NOT relocated, then those who moved out to Europe or the US, then those who moved toward Russia for protection or as volunteers, how can you assert that 1.5 million Armenians died during this period ???
Elif
David, we are running in vicious cycles here. First you indicated that East Anatolia was the land of Armenians and Turks came and took it from them and exterminated their culture and this continued for a thousand year and events of 1915 were the final massacres killing the last bit of Armenian culture in Anatolia and I think with this logic any war on earth would be classified as genocide (not that I agree what you are saying at all) and therefore we moved away from it and now you are implying that all western scholars saying there is no genocide are practically bought - out and the ones saying there is a genocide (at least according to you not the ones being silenced) are all free from bias (and I wonder who are sponsoring them for their researches).
Same old same old, come in with some accusations, meet people who have been thoroughly reserching about the subject, see their side as well, you still have to come up with something though to continue your accusations and therefore start to question the objectivity of the scholars dealing with the subject and try to show Turkey as spending huge sums in this type of lobbying where as in reality Armenian Diaspora is spending millions.
David once and for all, Turkey and Turkish goverment never denied the tragedic results of events before, during and as well as after 1915. As all Armenians are doing it very successfully, you are evaluating historical events in isolation and twisting and bending realities as you wish, hence Afyon incidents. Go back to 1860s and you will understand what I mean. Armenians rebelling plans against Ottoman Empire started as early as that and maybe even before that via Hinchaks. Land wars between different nations in history is not what we should be discussing here and Armenians rebelling against Ottoman Empire resulting in killings of several Muslims do not justify a punishment of relocating most of Armenians (which were also not related to the war zone as well) but we never deny the fact that Ottoman Authorities were not very well managed in organizing and controlling the relocation, Although had good intentions, Ottoman authorities caused lots of suffering for their own army as well. Is some of the fundamentalist Turks firing churches in Afyon (and in several other places you will be able to show) make this a govermental agenda to exterminate a whole nation? Yes there was a hatred against Armenians by Turks by then and it only stemmed from the fact that Hinchaks and from 1890 onwards Dashnaks organized Armenians to rebel against Ottoman Empire. So you bringing up incidents in isolation to prove genocide is not working. Part of my grandfather’s family is also victim to the events of 1915 as I might have told before and he was even remembering the firing of mosques by Armenians (together with alive Turks in them). Does this now make Armenian goverment a genocide committer?
Unfortunately as Turks, there is nothing we can do to make you understand that this part of history is seriosly politicized involving a lot of money for a lot of stakeholders where it becomes very difficult to tell fact from fiction.
I can give here a long list of rebels by Armenians resulting in several Muslims killed leading to the events of 1915 and forming this hatred between Armenians and Turks (who were living in peace together up until that time) but what difference will it make for you?
You want to see the events from the side that Ottoman goverment had a massive intentional killing program for Armenians and performed this at all costs. Lots of Armenian bureaucrats having important positions in Ottoman goverment back then does not even make you question the fact why Ottomans would put Armenians in important govermental positions when they were planning to exterminate the nation. I am sure you can come with an answer to this one as well though.
The only thing I can tell to you is just search what Armenian goverment is planning to get out of the events being called as genocide. Just think about whether Turkey on behalf of Ottoman Empire apoligizing from all Armenians and from Armenian goverment for a mismanaged relocation order (which I believe is not necessary at all but say we did) in 1915 is enough for Armenian goverment (of course with your logic it is highly probable you will say that you deserve land out of Turkey for what Ottomans did to Armenians and it is all where this comes down to).
Also one final thing, we Turks have no problems whatsoever with Armenians and I am really uncomfortable when it is put as we are having a ‘hot’ national war with Armenia and Armenians. Some of the writers interpreting history differently to win a nobel prize does not change this reality.
Kemal
Hey David, how many scholars that conclude no genocide occurred are funded by Armenia?
None. Does that mean Armenia is muzzling the scholars, which are sizable in number, that conclude no genocide occurred?
Where do you get the idea that scholars are entitled to, or must be funded, by some government source and if they are not, they are therefore being "muzzled"?
Michael
The Armenian genocide is an incontestable fact.
No it’s not, and the reason it is not is that there is no proof that the Ottomans ordered the annihilation of the Armenians. Not only that, however, the only proof that there is indicates that the rulers ordered the troops to protect the relocated Armenians.
And among historians there is a real debate going on about this subject, which is enough proof that it is not ‘incontestable.’
You and people like you should be ashamed of yourselves. You’re utterly dishonest, and more interested in ideology than anything else. Anyone who seriously studies this subject cannot say that the genocide-thesis is ‘incontestable.’ Those who say it is, can automatically not be taken seriously and should exposed as the activists and fake scholars they are.
R
David,
Thanks for the information on Afyon. It is useful to remember that the Armenians were deported from all over the Empire beginning of course with the rounding up of Armenian intellectuals in Constantinople in April 1915.
The historical research is now heading in an interesting direction as scholars focus on land registry archives and what happened to the property owned by the Armenians who were deported.
David
Dear Robert
If you read my post correctly, I stated the relief funds saved the lives of atleast 500,000 Armenians in the Caucasus and the Middle East. This number includes Armenians living in Russian Armenia who were not deported but suffered as a result of the influx of refugees from Ottoman Turkey and the war conditions.
Unfortunately when it comes to population figures it was in the interest of the Ottoman Empire to understate the amount of Armenians in the empire. It was also in the interest of Armenians to understate the figures since the amount of tax needed to be paid was dependant on the population. This is another area of debate which I will not get into. However, I will state that an official census was conducted in the Ottoman Empire in 1844 and it was stated that there were 2.4 million Armenians in Turkey. This means that there should have been over 3 million Armenians in Turkey by 1914 if we were to use your logic. In the end, Genocide is not determined whether 1.5 million Armenians were killed or 500,000. It is the intent of the perpetrator.
Elif. You must understand that the Armenians were subjects of the Ottoman Empire. They were not a monolothic group. The actions of Armenians in Zeitoun had nothing to do with Armenians in other provinces. Each province was different. In the case of the Eastern provinces, the issue of social justice was the cause of unrest. Many of the Kurds in the region were abusing their privelages in their relations with the Armenians. You must remember that the Armenians were NOT allowed by law to carry ARMS because they were Christians (until 1908). The Kurds were allowed to carry arms because they were Moslems. The abuse of this privelage by the Kurds was a major factor in the certain isolated insurections such as those which occured in Zeitoun in the 1860’s. At this time there was no such thing as Hunchacg or Tashnag, they came in the 1880’s.
What you all need to understand is the ASYMMETRY of power between the Ottoman Empire and the Armenian subjects during WW1. Only a state has the power and the ability to commit genocide. It is absurd to claim that the Armenians had committed genocide against Turks. There was no Armenian state at the time, there were Armenian subjects of Russia and Armenian subjects of the Ottoman Empire.
Just like 1915, in 2008 there is asymmetry of power between the government of Turkey and Armenia. Turkey has much more resources to deny the Genocide. Just compare the GDP’s of the 2 countries.
Elif
David, I hear what you are saying but if you consider every province in isolation then what are you going to say about Sivas? My grandfather was born and lost part of his family there and there were also strike backs of Turks in Sivas. Not maybe as big as other provinces though. But that is what my grandfather told my mom before he passed away (if you will ever take it seriously). Then what is the relation of Sivas to Van or Erzurum?
To me considering provisions in isolation is wrong cos national or any other type of acts are spread easily when people’s emotions are used against them. Dashnaks were formed in 1890 and not Hinchaks. Hinchaks date back to 1860s, although the name may had not been Hinchak specifically back then but the intention was the same.
I repeat, the type of the punishment maybe wrong or the relocation may had been poorly planned but the intention was never to exterminate the whole nation. If Ottoman Empire had such an intention, believe me they would apply long before and now we would not be even having this conversation with you cos no one would have any doubts about history. The reasons behind the rebels and the events leading to the rebels are not a topic to discuss here as well.
Also I do not know whether you addressed that part of your comment to me but if that is the case then let me answer: I have never implied that Armenians committed a genocide crime against Turks, what I said was with your logic we could also look at this issue and some other wars that way.
As for the last part of your comment, you are again moving away from logic. GDPs of countries are irrelevant here. What Turkey is spending on this issue is far from reaching what Armenian Diaspora is spending although its GDP may be much higher than Armenia. Turkey has an approximate population of 70 million and what you are comparing is again apples and oranges. With this 70 million population, Turkey is still away from providing economical stability to its citizens fully how greater its GDP maybe than Armenia’s. Having a higher GDP does not mean spending it more on lobbying works. Also thanks to some friend, I became aware of federal elections committee statistics in internet showing the donations above 200$ over the last 10 years in US, to campaigns. Contributions are not just from govermental organizations you see, they are also from individuals or private organizations not necessarily based in their homelands.
David
Dear Elif
Whenever the French, Canadian or U.S governments have considered adopting a Genocide resolution, the Turkish government has always threatened to retaliate by terminating economic co-operation. In fact it is not even discreet, the Turkish media reports the threats. This is powerful leverage, especially when you look at how much miltary hardware Turkey purchases from these countries. Also, foreign companies are always bidding for concessions in Turkey. In any case, just for your information, governments can spend millions of dollars without the public knowing exactly what they are spending it on. Like for instance paying public relations firms to do their lobbying!
There is no doubt that Armenians can kill. There is no doubt that Armenians who fought for the Russian armies may have committed atrocities when they were in occupation of Ottoman territory. However, the were Russian subjects. It could have happenned in Sivas. I feel ashamed for any such act which was carried out by an Armenian. It needs to be acknowledged that their is no monopoly by any people in committing atrocities, every nation is capable of committing such inhuman acts.
The issue is as follows. Does the average Turk living in Sivas know that there was a substantial population of Armenians in Sivas before 1915? Do they know they were there at least 2000 years before the Turks first appeared in the region? Do they know what happenned to them during the Abdul Hamid Massacres in 1894-96? Do they know that the the remaining Armenians of Sivas were deported and killed during WW1? Do they know that many Armenians fought loyally in the Ottoman Empire during the Balkan wars? Do they know that Enver Pasha wrote a letter in February 1915 thanking the Armenians for their heroic deeds in the battle of Sarikamish? Do they know that most Armenians of military age were conscripted into the Turkish Army in 1914? Do they know that their ancient churches in Sivas have either been destroyed, converted into Mosques or left in utter neglect? Do they know that the Armenian cemeteries have been looted and desecrated? Do they know that what happenned in Sivas happenned throughout the Ottoman empire? Do the travel guide books for Sivas mention the above facts? Do they know that in 1942 the Turkish government instituted the ‘Capital Tax’ which targetted the Non-Muslim population and is considered one of the worst economic crimes of the 20th century? Do they know that in 1955 there were riots in Istanbul which killed many Greeks and demolished parts of the Greek and Armenian quarters of Istanbul? The answer unfortunately is no.
What differentiates what happenned to the Armenians during WW1 is the fact that the orders for deportation were simultaneous throughout the Ottoman Empire. The victims were targeted simply because they were Armenians. A large amount of people were killed in a short period of time. This is what happenned in Rwanda in 1994. The international courts did not find any written orders for the killings, the court concluded it was genocide because of the systematic nature and the fact that one particular ethnic group was targeted. By this they were able to determine the "INTENT" necessary to judge it as genocide. The same goes for the Holocaust, they have not found any document signed by Hitler ordering the killings.
Although most Armenians in Smyrna and Constantinople were exempt (and there were reasons for this), the bulk of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire were deported or killed.
Just to conclude, for me using the word genocide to describe what happenned is not important. It is the deliberate falsifications by the deep state in Turkey which continues to feed the young Turks of today false truths which needs attention. The role of Armenian revolutionaries is always exxagerated. The fact that Armenians were a monilithic group who were all revolting is false. The mass graves they find today have not been independently verified by foreign observers. In a recent case of a mass grave found in Mardin, Prof. Halicoglu invited a Swedish scholar Prof. Gaunt to come and view the burial. Prof. Gaunt travelled and discovered the site had been tampered with because it looked different from the photos which had been sent to him when it was first discovered. I won’t get into the details but this is the kind of information which the Turkish public is unaware of.
I look forward to the day that the hatred between our two peoples are lifted. This can only be done with recognition of the wrongs of the past. Recognising it was Genocide is not the important bit, it is recognising that a "deep state" exists in Turkey and that they have purposefully manipulated the masses in order to justify their actions.
Just to conclude, if you ever get a chance you should read a book called "Pan Turkism a study of Irredentism".
The Ergenekon case which is occuring in Turkey today is directly related to the above. And NO. Armenians are not behind this. It is purely a Turkish struggle. The outcome of this case will determine which direction Turkey will be heading to. One of ‘reflection and truth’ or one of ‘deceit and ultranationalism’.
Kemal
"The fact that Armenians were a monilithic group who were all revolting is false."
David, perhaps you should read "Armenian Freedom Fighters, Memoirs of Rouben Der Minasian", translated by James G. Mandalian and published in 1963 by Hairenek Press.
This book explains how the Dashnaks were a monolithic group, divided into interrelated cells throughout Europe, Russia and the Ottoman Empire, like Al Qaeda, how they raised money and obtained weapons and bombs and planned various attacks–all before WWI.
Kemal
David,
A few more points. Yes, my parents knew very well Armenians lived in southeastern Anatolia before WWI, knew about the relocations and also told stories of atrocities committed against the Ottoman muslim populace by the Armenians who took up arms against the Ottoman Empire. My father came from one of the regions in which those atrocities occurred.
Even still, today, among uneducated villagers in the southeast, they whisper stories about what the Armenian revolutionaries did. One friend’s grandmother, when he was young and misbehaving used to make reference to Armenians–because that word had become synonmyous for those people with behaving in a cruel manner as a result of their experiences during WWI and before.
As for Armenians who fought in the Balkans and supported the Ottoman Empire, their descendants now live in Istanbul. Not all Ottoman Armenians supported the Dashnaks, and those Armenians actually actively supported the nationalist movement under Ataturk. The Armenians in the western part of Anatolia, generally speaking, did not join the Armenian revolutionaries in the southeast.
That’s why Armenians living in Istanbul and the western provinces were not affected by the relocation orders–because they did not pose a national security threat to the Ottoman Empire while it was under attack and fighting the world’s greatest powers on four fronts.
You should also read works by Armenian revolutionaries Pasdermajian, Boghos Nubar and Katchaznouni. They confirm that 200,000 Armenians took up arms against the Ottoman Empire during WWI. That’s more troops than there have ever been in Iraq. They also proudly proclaimed that Armenians were belligerants on the side of the Entente Powers from the very outset of WWI.
One more thing, the Minasian memoirs, also details how Armenian women participated in the revolutionary movement and explains what a vital role they played. In addition, it is well documented that the civilian Ottoman Armenian population that did not support the Dashnaks and their militias paid for their resistance with their blood–Minasian proudly writes about this too in his book.
What is reprehensible is the deliberate misinformation and denial from the Armenian side regarding these facts.
What is also reprehensible is the refusal of Armenian genocide proponents to accept that hundreds of thousands of all ethnic groups in equal measures, if not millions, throughout southeastern Anatolia died due to famine and rampant epidemics because the Entente Powers blockaded the Ottomans thus making medicine and food scarce.
Jonathan Wilson
"The same goes for the Holocaust, they have not found any document signed by Hitler ordering the killings."
Apparently, David doesn’t know anything about the Holocaust or Rwanda. There were tons and tons of Archival German documents proving intent, proving there were orders of the construction of death camps, the orders of killing Jews, the ‘Final Solution’ meetings, locked death camps, ovens to burn Jews, mass graves of Jews, gas chambers proving intent to exterminate. None of these exist for the Ottomans because the Ottomans did not commit genocide they simply responded to a rebellion and even Westerners of the time observed that "The Ottomans have been using their right to suppress rebellion just like many European nations."
There was no systematic nature in which Armenians died. They were killed by raiders and thieves during the relocations. However, the US Consul J.B. Jackson reports to Henry Morgenthau in February 8th of 1916 that 500,000 Armenians survived, he adds a list of 486,000 Armenians receiving US Aid in Syria’s Aleppo province (it is not a desert BTW), divided amongst the regions.
The Source is in : Conditions of Deported Armenians
"Although most Armenians in Smyrna and Constantinople were exempt (and there were reasons for this), the bulk of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire were deported or killed."
They were exempt because they had not rebelled and hence there was little possibility of many Dashnaks amongst them and hence didn’t want to harm innocent Armenians. Because it was not genocide.
"It is the deliberate falsifications by the deep state in Turkey which continues to feed the young Turks of today false truths which needs attention"
They don’t feed the Turks of today with anything. In fact, the Turkish government allows Armenian Gencoide proponents to sell books in book stores in Turkey (such as Tamer Akcam’s books). Sounds like a democracy to me. Tamer Akcam who escaped from prison has visited Turkey without being arrested, silenced, or attacked. Tamer Akcam posts regularly in the Turkish newspaper "Taraf".
I do wonder, can I write a book in Armenia about how there is no genocide and write in the newspapers about it? Of course not.
"The fact that Armenians were a monilithic group who were all revolting is false"
No it has been proven through thousands of foreign documents talking about how the Dashnaks were rebelling throughout Anatolia. They were not monolithic but they were forced to be monolithic by the Dashnak gangs.
David, do you know the story of "Davit the Informer"? He was an Armenian who did not believe that the Dashnaks were doing good, he believed the Dashnaks were doing more evil than good. As a result he reported Dashnak weapons caches to the authorities in Van city. Davit was later assassinated by Armenian Dashnaks for his treachery. One Catholic Armenain church leader was assassinated in his own church for betraying the Dashnaks.
So, yes, the Armenians were a monolithic group and still mostly are to this day because the Dashnaks continue to silence Armenians who dissent all over the world.
Elif
Thanks for all the sources quoted, including yours David. I have been into this issue in detail for the last 2 months and the more I get into it the more I learn. I will get a copy of your book but I am definitely reading Sükrü Server Aya’s book as well and I suggest you do the same.
I want to conclude this debate David by saying that, you as an Armenian were born biased and I, as a Turk was born biased. Nothing will change this reality. What I suggest you do, which I am always trying for myself is try to have an open mind. The more I learn about this topic, the more it is obvious to me there is no genocide. As Michael posted some time ago and as I posted in some other groups before, this group of so many contradicting views and opinions about that part of history is alone sufficient evidence to show how wrong to call these events a genocide. Labelling a nation to commit a genocide crime is easy David, but what is going to happen afterwards? It may not be important for you but it is definitely important for your goverment and again this is an example of disputable reality and politicized actions.
It may seem to you that Turkey, with its trading card, is an important ally for western countries but you know what, we see that exactly opposite of what you are telling here in Turkey. West has used not only so called armenian genocide but other political formations against Turkey time and again to get concessions out of Turkey (just not to pass the so called genocide from their parliaments).
I am not going to argue whether there is a deep state in Turkey or not, but I am pretty sure they are not having any actions related to this so called genocide. Turks in general are so ignorant about this topic, just the contrary of what you think since Turkish goverment stayed silent for so long (although it may have its own reasonsfor that) allowing Armenian Diaspora to dominate over even internet. Foreigners or Turks leaving abroad are more knowledgeable about the subject than Turks living in Turkey.
Finally, I repeat, I do not like this to be shown as if the two nations hate each other. It is not like that for me at all and not like that definitely for my family and friends (whatever happened in the past) and I am saying this as a Turk who have lived all her life in Turkey. I do not know about your side but I definitely know that politically it is tried to be shown that way for some stakeholders.
R
‘Jonathan Wilson’ you must be referring to Taner Akcam, who has been subjected to prosecution under the infamous Art. 301 of the Turkish penal code. His book ‘A Shameful Act: The Armenian Genocide and the Question of Turkish Responsibility’ has become a reference work.
Robert
Elif,
"…Turkish goverment stayed silent for so long (although it may have its own reasonsfor that)…"
I think that the main reason why the Turkish Gov. kept silence on this subject since the beginning of the Republic is because there were still Armenians living alongside with Turks in the new Republic.
I think that AtaTürk made the right choice in order to get the people to heal their wounds. Otherwise, the hatered would have continued, just like what we are constantly witnessing from the Dashnak / AG supporters today.
Elif
So what R? Yes he had been subject to prosecution, at least this happened in Turkey which shows that people have their own will to defend what they want (even when they are contradicting common sense). The reason why there is no such example of this in Armenia is because people can not dare to talk otherwise. I won’t go into details of 301 here since it is our internal issue rather than something that should be associated with so called genocide. Yes he had been subject to prosecution but he was not even trialed. What does this show? I think you should more talk about why it is accepted a crime to tell there is no genocide by French National Assembly then these types of things and do not tell me that there is no one sent to prison for this yet(I emphasize yet).
Please stop using Orhan Pamuk, Ahmet Altan and Taner Akçam by the way again and again, we are over those and do not make us run in vicious cycles here again.
And Robert you may be right but it seems to me that from Armenian side the hatred still goes on and will continue whatever Turkey does.
Aram
Scarlet, about the interview it was published and documented. You may contact the newspaper itself and ask for their archives. Armenians are sincere not to refer statements to personalities not making them (which would harm the just cause they defend). All the peoples (Turks, Kurds, Arabs, etc.) who lived (and still live) beside Armenians for centuries knew the sincerity of the Armenians. You may find the answers to your questions (why are there so many Armenians and Greeks?) while studying Ataturk?s personality and the conditions surrounded his statement. He was ?angry? at his ex-fellows who supported him in his movement (they followed their own interests and wanted to escape the trials of Turkey?s post-war government (in Istanbul) for the crimes they committed against the Armenians and other peoples of the Ottoman Empire and for their responsibility in drawing Turkey into war), but afterwards they ?betrayed? him. How was the so-called Tashjian ?sure? that Atataurk had not made this statement after 56 years (in 1982)? Then, why Turkey or any party connected to it, that is much concerned with this statement, did not ask the newspaper for its archives and ?prove? there was no such a statement which would defend its case against the Armenians?! Kemal, you are defending Turkey?s state policy of denying the Armenian genocide which is described by some Turkish intellectuals as ?Turkish propaganda aimed at Turks? which wouldn?t convince the whole world to the contrary of the historical facts. The Turkish troops were armed to the tooth and not the Armenian fedayees.
The communists also heavily armed Turkey for political reasons. Kemal, I see that in time you try to cast a shadow on Ataturk?s statement for it was made 82 years ago, you can?t do the same thing with Pamuk?s statement which was made years before and was widely covered by the world media. I see that you (and maybe others in this forum) do not respect the first Turkish writer who won Nobel?s prize only because he made his statement about the mass killings of the Armenians and Kurds!! Another thing; do not cite that web site of ?Holdwater? (who does not hold any water!!) that spreads fabrications and anti-Armenian propaganda known well by academics and intellectuals and whose moderator cowardly concealed his identity for long years till Taner Akcam found it out !! Beside Ataturk and Panuk, I?ll cite other statements made by Turkish personalities not less important and who were participants or eye-witnesses to the crimes committed against Armenians and other peoples. Elif, you are right; Ara and Aram are different.
A clever reader can know the difference in writing styles. Anyway, this is not the point; I?ll continue stating facts about the Armenian genocide, the statements and the opinions of Turkish politicians and intellectuals.
Aram
Why Does Turkey Deny The Armenian Genocide?
It is obvious that Turk officials deny the Armenian Genocide as part of state’s policy on this issue. From my research, this is due to the following reasons:
1. The stigma attached to the word genocide. They do not want to be identified with the Nazis; therefore they refuse the term genocide. They claim that the Ottoman Empire is finished, the Turkish Republic is an entirely different entity, it has no connection with the Ottoman Empire; therefore the stigma of genocide does not apply to them (Prof. Vahakn Dadrian).
2. After denying this crime for decades, they will look foolish if suddenly they reverse themselves saying, yes, it happened, then it will expose to the entire world that they have been lying for 8 decades. When you continue to lie, it becomes very difficult to reverse yourself and admit guilt (Prof. Vahakn Dadrian).
3. The fear of compensation, the fear of restitution and fear of also territorial claims, etc, in other word the fear of the consequences of admission of guilt (Prof. Vahakn Dadrian).
4. They will have to revamp, to restructure and reorganize their entire educational system. New textbooks and history books will have to be written, in other words it will be a major undertaking in the domain of national education, history writing, historiography, etc. (Prof. Vahakn Dadrian).
5. Perpetrators normally do not admit their crimes voluntarily, in particular not crimes of state. Germany is exceptional because the victorious allies held tribunals and forced the confrontation with their crimes upon the defeated Germans (Dr. Tessa Hofmann).
6. The word “Armenian” plays an important role in the structure of the Turkish identity. Each misfortune, even the Kurdish problem, is connected with that word. It came to them calling Abdullah Ocalan an Armenian (Hrant Dink).
7. The psychological, the moral, reason. The Armenians symbolized and were a constant reminder to the Turks of their most traumatic historical events, namely, the collapse of the Empire and loss of almost 90% of their territory over a forty-year period. They lived, in the last 100 years of their Empire, under the constant fear that they would disappear from the stage of history. The fear of total obliteration from the stage of history was a permanent feeling during the demise process of the Empire, in a simple way. They felt that they would disappear as actors from the stage of history. That’s why they don’t want to be reminded of that past (Dr. Taner Akcam).
8. An important number of founders of the Turkish Republic were either participants in this genocidal process or they enriched themselves from this process. Mustafa Kemal did not hesitate to recruit the members of the "Teshkilat mahsusa", the main coordinator and organizer of the annihilation of the Ottoman Armenians, into his own irregular army in 1919 and to implement its structures into the new Turkey. So, Turks fear to acknowledge the crimes of the past, because admitting that the founders of modern Turkey, revered today as heroes, were complicit in evil calls into question the country’s foundations of the republic (Dr. Taner Akcam and Dr. Tessa Hofmann).
9. Turkish society knows very little about what happened in its own past for two reasons: One is because of the alphabet reform that happened in Turkey in 1928, where the Arabic script was abandoned and Latin script was adopted. Turks cannot read their own past historical documents. And the second is that things from the past were selectively translated and therefore very little scholarly information has been made available to them about the Armenian question (Prof. Muge Gocek).
R
Elif,
The French legislation criminalizing genocide denial has not been passed as law as the Senate has not voted on it. It seems unlikely that it will be.
Elif
I know about that R. To me it is quite likely though, the question is just the timing. Anyway, I hope you are right.
Aram, we do not disrespect Orhan Pamuk. Orhan Pamuk had to make a difference to get the attraction of foreigners and that difference came from contradicting the majority in Turkey which worked in the end because people started to read what he was writing. His writing skills are irrelavant of that. Noone is undermining his talent. Some people are undermining his nationalism though.
Also since you passed onto the pyschological analysis of Turks over the century, I hope you do the same for your nation as well. The observations you put here about Turks can easily be adapted to Armenians’ approach to the issue over the century.
In my past posts when I tried to tell people here that they could not evaulate things in isolation and should consider the hatred among the two nations back then in the context of a series of events dating back to 1860s, where people’s emotions were used against them, it was not found very popular and I was even told to look at each event alone. Now you using a psychological approach to strengthen your claim about the genocide is interesting.
By the way, I am still waiting for your scholar researches.
One final thing, I think you are comparing Atatürk to Orhan Pamuk in your above comment and it is sort of ridicilous to me (sorry) if you are doing so. And also did you ever take a look at Nutuk? Since you are claiming that Ataturk made those statements that Kemal proved that he did not, I think you should.
Jonathan Wilson
Isn’t it funny that all Armenians today have to offer as proof of the Armenian Genocide is the work and statements of the following people:
Taner Akcam (Someone who escaped from a Turkish prison, also spends his time writing books with mistranslated, misquoted, and out-of-context archival material; sociology professor, history degree from an Armenian university)Henry Morgenthau (an ambassador who was working to involve the United States in World War One, through anti-Turkish and anti-German propaganda)Orhan Pamuk (A fiction writer, rambles about how he hates Ataturk and how bad the Turks are)Vahakn Dadrian (an Armenian, who first studied mathematics, then history, then international law, and then Ph.D. in sociology–who believes that the Germans are the masterminds and criminal architexts of an Armenian Genocide [read his book about the German role in the Armenian Genocide])Peter Balakian (an English teacher and fiction writer, studied "American civilization" in his university though)Arnold Toynbee (an employee of the British propaganda team trying to involve the United States in World War One, by using anti-Turkish propaganda who later said he may have exaggerated.)Hitler (apparently, being a perpetrator of genocide makes you an expert of other genocides; Oh and his quote that Armenians use by the way, was written on plain paper, and he had never actually said it [Hitler did not have a second speech that day about how the Armenians were exterminated])Did I miss anyone from the Armenian Genocide industry that is worth mentioning?
I like the fact that the whole Armenian Genocide thesis is based on a letter an ambassador wrote saying that there was a "race extermination" in Anatolia. Apparently, opinions of a US ambassador who never set foot anywhere near Eastern Turkey who was working with Woodrow Wilson to compel the United States to join World War One. Read the lies and racist remarks of his book Ambassador Morgenthau’s Story.
Aram
Elif, thank you for your comments. I am not comparing Ataturk to Pamuk. I just began stating Turkish well-known personalities (Ataturk as a president and founder of modern Turkey and Pamuk as a writer) who made statements on the Armenian genocide. Beside the above-mentioned common things (being well-known Turkish personalities who made statements on the Armenian Genocide), they belong to the same Donmeh group. I’ll also cite other Turkish personalities.I am not making a psychological analysis; I simply stated the reasons why Turkey denies the Armenian Genocide referring to different scholars and writers: 2 Armenians (1 from Diaspora-Dadrian- the other Turkish Armenian-Dink), 2 Turkish scholars (Akcam and Muge Gocek) and 1 German scholar (Hofman).
By the way, Dadrian is regarded as number one specialist in the Armenian Genocide in the world and was invited to lecture in the British Parliament and academic circles and is most welcomed and referred to by Holocaust scholars-this is for Jonathan). If you insist on a psychological analysis, then it would be required for those who try to deny facts and cover up or justify crimes committed against humanity (for the reasons I mentioned above) and not the Armenians who are trying to restore justice and regain their rights. All the peoples in their place would have done the same thing. The Turkish denial is not only connected to the past, but it is also a threat to present-Armenia’s National Security, because what happened in 1915 could be repeated today. Let’s not forget Turkey’s president Ozal’s threats to Armenia in a statement he made to AFP (after returning from Baku and before his death) warning Armenians to get lessons from what happened to them in 1915 !!!Although the Armenians do not need scholar’s research works to confirm the Genocide because they have first-hand information about the genocide from their survivors (so was my case as my deceased father from Urfa was a genocide survivor whose all family members, except for his brother, were killed in 1915 although they had done nothing illegal and had nothing to do with revolutionaries !! But, upon your request I offer these testimonies to you.About the scholars I begin stating the following: In August 2001, a group of highly distinguished Jewish scholars from all over the world released a statement affirming the Armenian genocide and demonstrating their friendship with the Armenian People. "We, the undersigned, are scholars, rabbis, teachers, community leaders, and students of Jewish heritage. As Jews, we share many similarities with the Armenian people. We were both victims ofgenocide during the twentieth-century and have survived despite thosewho would deny us our right to exist. On this year, 2001, which marksthe 1700th anniversary of Armenia’s adoption of Christianity, we asJews salute our Armenian friends and their contributions to Westernsociety and culture." Signators included: =Elie Wiesel Nobel Peace Prize Laureate, Holocaust survivor,=Prof. Yehuda Bauer A leader in Israeli Holocaust scholarship=Professor David R. Blumenthal, Rabbi=Jay and Leslie Cohen, Professor of Judaic StudiesEmory University, Atlanta, GA=Leon Botstein, President, Bard College=Prof. Israel W. Charny,Editor-in-Chief, Encyclopaedia of GenocideExecutive Editor, Institute on the Holocaustand Genocide, Jerusalem=Deborah Dwork, Director Center for Holocaust Studies Clark University=Rabbi Joseph H. Ehrenkranz,Executive Director of the "Center for Christian-JewishUnderstanding" Sacred Heart University, Fairfield, CT=Professor Sidra DeKoven Ezrahi, Hebrew University of Jerusalem= Dr. Stephen Feinstein, Director Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies University of Minnesota= Daniel Jonah Goldhagen, Harvard University=Stephen M. Goldman, Museum Director Florida Holocaust Museum= David Gordis, Ph.D. President, Professor of Rabbinics Hebrew College =Leonard Grob, Ph.D. Professor of Philosophy Farleigh Dickinson University=Susannah Heschel Eli Black, Professor of Jewish Studies Dartmouth College=Aaron Aronov, Chair of Judaic Studies University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa, AL= Professor Ephraim Karsh, Head of Mediterranean Studies King’s College, University of London=Steven Kepnes, Ph.D. Director of Jewish Studies Colgate University=Robert Jay Lifton, Author of "The Nazi Doctors" Department of Psychiatry Harvard University=John Loftus, President Florida Holocaust Museum=Maud Mandel, Assistant Professor Modern Jewish History Brown University=Nathaniel Mencow,Curator, World War II Museum Public School System Worcester, MA=Saul Mendlovitz, Dag Hammarskold Professor of Law Rutgers Law (Newark) =Ruth W. Messinger,Former Manhattan Borough PresidentPresident and Executive Director,American Jewish World Service=Thane Rosenbaum, Novelist and human rights law professor=Richard E. Rubenstein,Institute for Conflict Analysis and ResolutionGeorge Mason University=Joseph H. and Belle R. Braun, Professor of American Jewish History, Brandeis University=Gerald Sorin,Distinguished University Professor andDirector of Jewish Studies, SUNY, New Paltz=Rabbi David A. Teutsch, President Deconstructionist Rabbinical College=Rabbi Lennard R. Thal, Vice President Union of American Hebrew Congregations=Lawrence D. Wasser, Executive Director Florida Holocaust Museum To be continued….
Kemal
"How was the so-called Tashjian ?sure? that Atataurk had not made this statement after 56 years"
Because, dear Aram, they screwed up the dates again.
In the Ataturk "interview," which allegedly takes place in 1923, Ataturk makes reference to an assasination attempt that did not occur until 1926.
There are several other reasons why it’s easy to conclude the alleged interview is just another forgery and you can read about it at the website I gave, if you choose to. But, since you are still asking the question, it’s clear you haven’t chosen to yet.
Keep pushing forged documents and false interviews. It only diminishes your credibility and your claims.
Bob Parks
"the Armenians do not need scholar’s research works to confirm the Genocide because they have first-hand information about the genocide from their survivors (so was my case as my deceased father from Urfa was a genocide survivor whose all family members, except for his brother, were killed in 1915 although they had done nothing illegal and had nothing to do with revolutionaries !! But, upon your request I offer these testimonies to you"
Congratulations you’ve just stated what we’ve always known:
Armenians do not need research or proof of an Armenian Genocide because it is a belief not a fact or perspective based on historical research.
To Armenians, The "Armenian Genocide" is a matter of unity. They tell stories about massacres by Turks, when they really mean to say Kurds, they say Turks, because they want land from Turkey, because Kurds do not have land or money for reparations.
Armenians cannot fathom the fact that many Muslim survivors of 1915, 1914, 1895, 1896, 1905, who barely escaped the wrath of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (1890 established) have their own testimonies of massacres, of Armenians putting babies into ovens, of Armenians raping women and children, of Armenians cutting off body parts or burning Muslim villages.
Armenians don’t realize that the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (which for some reason is still alive today!!! Like as if there is a revolution still) is controlling Armenian lives and Armenian opinion.
Even Hovhannes Katchaznouni was assassinated by the ARF for writing a manifesto about how the ARF is not needed anymore after World War One (they claim it was "Stalin Purges" that killed him, what a convenient excuse).
Davit informed the Ottoman authorities in Van about ARF weapons being hidden in the city after he figured out how evil the ARF was, he too was assassinated in a bazaar in Van city.
There are so many other Armenian eye-witnesses who were either silenced or carry their secrets of atrocities against Muslims to the grave. In order to divert attention from their atrocities they seek international recognition of genocide against themselves.
Congratz Armenians, you are blaming the victims for your own crime against them. Too bad every single Western historian who is not of Armenian descent supports the Turks!
Elif
Aram, thanks for the citations, I will take a look at those.
I have never heard of Ozal making such a statement and I will definitely dig into it, I do not want it to be a false statement or a false interview again as Kemal pointed out and I am not going to argue about your credibility here but I am going to tell you this, you are talking about your innocent ones being lost during the events, not the rebellions. That is the whole point Aram that I am trying to make here, my grandfather lost part of his innocent ones as well and in Sivas. Who is going to pay for that? Your nation rebelling against Ottoman Empire, dating back to 1860s and taking thousands of innocent Muslim lives? Who is going to pay for that?
You are not trying to regain justice and rights here, you are just looking at issues one sided, just seeing your loss and putting it above everyone else’s. That is where you do not need hard cold facts but just eye witnesses. If I tried to look at issues from eye witnesses point of view only(not that I am undermining the views of eye witnesses here) according to my grandfather you were the ones massacrating Turks. Instead I am trying to read about, before, during and after the events to see the formations, to understand the official documents and what actually happened in that period.
I am always trying to look from your side as well and that is why I keep repeating this, the punishment (it is also arguable if we could call it a punishment since the motive here was self defense) and the precautions taken may not be 100% justifiable but the intention was never to destroy a nation and I am not talking out of emotions here although as I posted some time ago we were born biased.
Then I start to think and unfortunately come to the point where Bob Parks is indicating in his post. Armenians want land out of Turkey and they are doing it at all costs (politically labelling the events as genocide, otherwise they can not claim anything out of Turkey), through spreading a false belief that could unite all Armenians as one, where their emotions are used against them. If then, you are threatening national security for Turkey by your longer term plans to get land out of the country, can you blame Özal for making such a statement (not that I am defending such a statement and even if we do not know whether he made it or not)?
One final thing, I can only say that I will keep reading the scholars from both sides and I suggest you do the same but over the last 2 months, it is so obvious to me that the events can never be labelled as genocide.
Aram
I’ll respond to the posts soon…
Continuing my last post Elif..
- In response to Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s call for an “impartial investigation” of the fate of the Armenians in Turkey in 1915, an open letter by leaders of the International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS) was sent to Erdogan calling on Turkey to end its campaign of denial of the Armenian Genocide and urging the Turkish government to accept responsibility for this crime against humanity. The open letter dated April 6th was signed by Robert Melson, the President of the IAGS; Israel Charny, Vice-President of the Association, and; New York Times Best-Selling author Peter Balakian, who holds the Donald M. and Constance H. Rebar Professor of the Humanities of Colgate University. The full text of the letter is provided below.
“Dear Prime Minister Erdogan:
We are writing you this open letter in response to your call for an “impartial study by historians” concerning the fate of the Armenian people in the Ottoman Empire during World War I.
We represent the major body of scholars who study genocide in North America and Europe. We are concerned that in calling for an impartial study of the Armenian Genocide you may not be fully aware of the extent of the scholarly and intellectual record on the Armenian Genocide and how this event conforms to the definition of the United Nations Genocide Convention. We want to underscore that it is not just Armenians who are affirming the Armenian Genocide but it is hundreds of independent scholars, who have no affiliations with governments, and whose work spans many countries and nationalities and the course of decades. The scholarly evidence reveals the following:
On April 24, 1915, under cover of World War I, the Young Turk government of the Ottoman Empire began a systematic genocide of its Armenian citizens – an unarmed Christian minority population. More than a million Armenians were exterminated through direct killing, starvation, torture, and forced death marches. Another million fled into permanent exile. Thus an ancient civilization was expunged from its homeland of 2,500 years.
The Armenian Genocide was the most well-known human rights issue of its time and was reported regularly in newspapers across the United States and Europe. The Armenian Genocide is abundantly documented by thousands of official records of the United States and nations around the world including Turkey’s wartime allies Germany, Austria and Hungary, by Ottoman court-martial records, by eyewitness accounts of missionaries and diplomats, by the testimony of survivors, and by decades of historical scholarship.
The Armenian Genocide is corroborated by the international scholarly, legal, and human rights community:
1) Polish jurist Raphael Lemkin, when he coined the term genocide in 1944, cited the Turkish extermination of the Armenians and the Nazi extermination of the Jews as defining examples of what he meant by genocide.
2) The killings of the Armenians is genocide as defined by the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.
3) In 1997 the International Association of Genocide Scholars, an organization of the world’s foremost experts on genocide, unanimously passed a formal resolution affirming the Armenian Genocide.
4) 126 leading scholars of the Holocaust including Elie Wiesel and Yehuda Bauer placed a statement in the New York Times in June 2000 declaring the “incontestable fact of the Armenian Genocide” and urging western democracies to acknowledge it.
5) The Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide (Jerusalem), the Institute for the Study of Genocide (NYC) have affirmed the historical fact of the Armenian Genocide.
6) Leading texts in the international law of genocide such as William A. Schabas’s Genocide in International Law (Cambridge University Press, 2000) cite the Armenian Genocide as a precursor to the Holocaust and as a precedent for the law on crimes against humanity.
We note that there may be differing interpretations of genocide - how and why the Armenian Genocide happened, but to deny its factual and moral reality as genocide is not to engage in scholarship but in propaganda and efforts to absolve the perpetrator, blame the victims, and erase the ethical meaning of this history.
We would also note that scholars who advise your government and who are affiliated in other ways with your state-controlled institutions are not impartial. Such so-called “scholars” work to serve the agenda of historical and moral obfuscation when they advise you and the Turkish Parliament on how to deny the Armenian Genocide.
We believe that it is clearly in the interest of the Turkish people and their future as a proud and equal participant in international, democratic discourse to acknowledge the responsibility of a previous government for the genocide of the Armenian people, just as the German government and people have done in the case of the Holocaust”.
Aram
In case of doubting this letter, check the link of the association:
genocidewatch.org/ TurkishPMIAGSOpenLetterreArmenia6-13-05.htm
Jonathan Wilson
The open letter dated April 6th was signed by Robert Melson, the President of the IAGS; Israel Charny, Vice-President of the Association, and; New York Times Best-Selling author Peter Balakian, who holds the Donald M. and Constance H. Rebar Professor of the Humanities of Colgate University
That’s nice of Robert Melson, an author who writes books on the Armenian Genocide and makes money off of the allegations for a living, Peter Balakian who made his career off of a book filled with exaggerations and lies about the fate of the Armenians in 1915, who is also an English teacher and American civilization expert (NOT an Armenian or Ottoman history expert), and the IAGS, the "International Association of Genocide Scholars" because apparently, an organization funded by donors (probably Armenian-Americans) who call themselves "genocide" scholars, like as if studying the Holocaust makes them an expert on the histories of other nations thousands of miles away of different people, cultures, histories, and ethnicities.
Elif
Aram, this does not make sense at all, you and some others keep coming up with Holocaust, trying to compare the so called genocide of Armenians with Jews being slaughtered for an ideology.
armeniangenocidedebate.com/holocaust-and -armenian-genocide-compared
Check out the article above about the comparison of the two very different things.
I will also check and try to find by whom IAGS is funded but I agree here with Jonathan. Some posts ago, Jonathan mentioned this as an ‘Industry’ and the more we debate, the more I happen to believe it is. It is always apparent to people that there are lots of stakeholders here making a lot of money out of this thing but an independent organization like IAGS should not be questioning the objectivity of some scholars just because they are from the other side without having hard evidence and it makes me believe more in this being an industry.
It does not make sense at all also because Turkish goverment even wanted to be taken to international court for the genocide allegations as Scarlet put some posts ago or suggested to form a commission together with your goverment including scholars from both sides in an open and objective platform but Armenian goverment refused. And please do not mention the opening of the borders thing again (although some other guy that I do not remember his name now, mentioned it some posts ago) cos it is so obvious that Armenia very well knows that as long as an invasion continues in Azerbaijan, Turkey can not accept the offer of ‘open the borders and we will open our archives’. What IAGS is saying is exactly the opposite of what Turkey is doing, as if Turkey is running away from taking responsibility of what Ottoman Authorities did back then and Armenia should not be having an ‘economical’ condition to open its archives about its allegations in the first place. Jonathan, do you have a reputable source for the number of Armenians ordered for relocation, cos the number changes to sources. Thanks
101 Aram
Kemal, in my post, I have said that Ataturk’s interview took place in 1926 and not in 1923 as you claim..
Armenians are not pushing forged documents. They don’t need to do so. There are plenty documents in the archives of European countries, which led to recognition of the Armenian genocide by these countries, among them Germany, Ottoman Empire’s ally in WW1. There are also the Turkish archives and trial proceedings (of those who committed crimes during WW1) published in Turkish newspapers in 1918-1920…I’ll cite these documents too.
“…The Armenian Genocide is abundantly documented by thousands of official records of the United States and nations around the world including Turkey’s wartime allies Germany, Austria and Hungary, by Ottoman court-martial records, by eyewitness accounts of missionaries and diplomats, by the testimony of survivors, and by decades of historical scholarship..”.
Bob Parks, the Armenian Genocide is a fact the Armenian people practiced in the Ottoman Empire. It was the first genocide of the 20th century. They were massacred by the state they supposed to be its subjects and under its protect. There is a simple definition of the word “Genocide” you must know under the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. This is why there is no Armenian people now in the Armenian vilayets where they lived continuously for 5000 years till 1915, but there are Turks, Kurds and other peoples.
What you have said about ARF and Katchaznouni is baseless and a product of your fictitious thinking. ARF represents a portion of the Armenian people. All the subjects of the Ottoman Empire fought for their freedom and won it (like the Greeks, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Romanians, Serbs, Arabs, etc.) except for Armenians and Kurds.
Elif, I am talking about a genocide campaign led by the state against a portion of its subjects they supposed to be under its protection. It was a well-organized campaign carried out under the condition of the war to get rid of the Armenian Cause by killing the Armenian people under the pretext of rebellion in all regions even far from the war zone!!
“One final thing, I can only say that I will keep reading the scholars from both sides and I suggest you do the same but over the last 2 months, it is so obvious to me that the events can never be labelled as genocide”
Elif, then, keep up reading, you haven’t reached yet your final point. Check all the information I’ll give and you may get. You may be another Elif Shafak!!
In Istanbul, a Crack In the Wall of Denial
We’re Trying to Debate the Armenian Issue
By Elif Shafak, September 25, 2005; Page B03
ISTANBUL
Iam the daughter of a Turkish diplomat — a rather unusual character in the male-dominated foreign service in that she was a single mother. Her first appointment was to Spain, and we moved to Madrid in the early 1980s. In those days, the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia, known as ASALA, was staging attacks on Turkish citizens — and diplomats in particular — in Rome, London, Zurich, Brussels, Milan and Madrid; our cultural attaché in Paris was assassinated in 1979 while walking on the Champs-Elysees. So throughout my childhood, the word “Armenian” meant only one thing to me: a terrorist who wanted to kill my mother.
Faced with hatred, I hated back. But that was as far as my feelings went. It took me years to ask the simple question: Why did the Armenians hate us?
My ignorance was not unusual. For me in those days, and for most Turkish citizens even today, my country’s history began in 1923, with the founding of the modern Turkish state. The roots of the Armenians’ rage — in the massacres, atrocities and deportations that decimated Turkey’s Armenian population in the last years of Ottoman rule, particularly 1915 — were simply not part of our common historical memory.
But for me today, and for a growing number of my fellow Turks, that has changed. That is why I am in Istanbul this weekend. I came to Bosphorus University to attend the first-ever public conference in this country on what happened to the Ottoman Armenians in and after 1915. As I write, we are fighting last-minute legal maneuvers by hard-line opponents of open discussion to shut the conference down. I don’t know how it will turn out — but the fact that we are here, openly making the attempt, with at least verbal support from the prime minister and many mainstream journalists, highlights how far some in my country have come.
Until my early twenties, like many Turks living abroad, I was less interested in history than in what we described as “improving Turkey’s image in the eyes of Westerners.” As I began reading extensively on political and social history, I was drawn to the stories of minorities, of the marginalized and the silenced: women who resisted traditional gender roles, unorthodox Sufis persecuted for their beliefs, homosexuals in the Ottoman Empire. Gradually, I started reading about the Ottoman Armenians — not because I was particularly interested in the literature but because I was young and rebellious, and the official ideology of Turkey told me not to.
Yet it was not until I came to the United States in 2002 and started getting involved in an Armenian-Turkish intellectuals’ network that I seriously felt the need to face the charges that, beginning in 1915, Turks killed as many as 1.5 million Armenians and drove hundreds of thousands more from their homes. I focused on the literature of genocide, particularly the testimony of survivors; I watched filmed interviews at the Zoryan Institute’s Armenian archives in Toronto; I talked to Armenian grandmothers, participated in workshops for reconciliation and collected stories from Armenian friends who were generous enough to entrust me with their family memories and secrets. With each step, I realized not only that atrocities had been committed in that terrible time but that their effect had been made far worse by the systematic denial that followed. I came to recognize a people’s grief and to believe in the need to mourn our past together.
I also got to know other Turks who were making a similar intellectual journey. Obviously there is still a powerful segment of Turkish society that completely rejects the charge that Armenians were purposely exterminated. Some even go so far as to claim that it was Armenians who killed Turks, and so there is nothing to apologize for. These nationalist hardliners include many of our government officials, bureaucrats, diplomats and newspaper columnists.
They dominate Turkey’s public image — but theirs is only one position held by Turkish citizens, and it is not even the most common one. The prevailing attitude of ordinary people toward the “Armenian question” is not one of conscious denial; rather it is collective ignorance. These Turks feel little need to question the past as long as it does not affect their daily lives.
There is a third attitude, prevalent among Turkish youth: Whatever happened, it was a long time ago, and we should concentrate on the future rather than the past. “Why am I being held responsible for a crime my grandfather committed — that is, if he ever did it?” they ask. They want to become friends with Armenians and push for open trade and better relations with neighboring Armenia . . . . as long as everybody forgets this inconvenient claim of genocide.
Finally, there is a fourth attitude: The past is not a bygone era that we can discard but a legacy that needs to be recognized, explored and openly discussed before Turkey can move forward. It is plain to me that, though it often goes unnoticed in Western media, there is a thriving movement in Turkish civil society toward this kind of reconciliation. The 50 historians, journalists, political scientists and activists who have gathered here in the last few days for the planned conference on Ottoman Armenians share a common belief in the need to face the atrocities of the past, no matter how distressing or dangerous, in order to create a better future for Turkey.
But it hasn’t been easy, and the battle is far from over.
Over the past four years, Turks have made several attempts to address the “Armenian question.” The conference planned for this weekend differed from earlier meetings in key respects: It was to be held in Istanbul itself, rather than abroad; it would be organized by three established Turkish universities rather than by progressive Armenian and Turkish expatriates; it would be conducted completely in Turkish.
Originally scheduled for May 23, it was postponed after Cemil Cicek, Turkey’s minister of justice, made an angry speech before parliament, accusing organizers of “stabbing their nation in the back.” But over the ensuing four months, the ruling Justice and Development Party made it clear that Cicek’s remarks reflected his views, and his alone. The minister of foreign affairs, Abdullah Gul, announced that he had no problem with the expression of critical opinion and even said he would be willing to participate in the conference. (As it happens, he has been in New York in recent days, at the United Nations.)
Meanwhile, the Armenian question has been prominently featured in Turkish media. Hurriyet, the nation’s most popular newspaper, ran a series of pro and con interviews on this formerly taboo subject, called “The Armenian Dossier.” The upcoming trial of acclaimed author Orhan Pamuk, charged with “denigrating” Turkish identity for talking about the killing of Kurds and Armenians, has been fervently debated. Various columnists have directly apologized to the Armenians for the sufferings caused to their people by the Turks. And stories have been reported of orphaned Armenian girls who saved their lives by changing their names, converting to Islam and marrying Turks — and whose grandchildren are unaware today of their own mixed heritage.
All this activity has triggered a nationalist backlash. That should be expected — but organizers of the Conference on Ottoman Armenians were nevertheless surprised last week by a crafty, last-minute maneuver: a court order to postpone the conference pending the investigation of hardliners’ charges that it was unfairly biased against Turkey. The cynicism of this order was clear when we learned that the three-judge panel actually made its decision on Monday; it was not made public until late Thursday, only hours before the conference was to begin.
Organizers said they would try to regroup by moving the site from Bosphorus University, a public institution, to one of the two private universities that are co-sponsors. We were encouraged by the immediate public reaction: Not only did some normally mainstream media voices denounce the court order, but Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, in televised interviews, repeatedly criticized it as “unacceptable.” “You may not like the expression of an opinion,” he said, “but you can’t stop it like this.” Foreign Minister Gul, in New York, lamented what effect this would have on Turkey’s quest to join the European Union: “There’s no one better at hurting themselves than us,” he said.
Whatever happens with the conference, I believe one thing remains true: Through the collective efforts of academics, journalists, writers and media correspondents, 1915 is being opened to discussion in my homeland as never before. The process is not an easy one and will disturb many vested interests. I know how hard it is — most children from diplomatic families, confronting negative images of Turkey abroad, develop a sort of defensive nationalism, and it’s especially true among those of us who lived through the years of Armenian terrorism. But I also know that the journey from denial to recognition is one that can be made.
Author’s e-mail: elifshafak@yahoo.com
Elif Shafak is a novelist and a professor of Near Eastern Studies at the University of Arizona. She commutes between Tucson and Istanbul.
Jonathan, all scholars and writers (Armenians or non-Armenians) who tell historical facts are, according to you, inefficient, even New York Times Best-Selling author Peter Balakian!! Also, the IAGS, the major body of scholars who study genocide in North America and Europe is, according to you, “an organization funded by donors (probably (!!!) Armenian-Americans). This is not true, as the Turkish state spends millions of dollars and uses its resources, diplomatic, economic relations to distort the facts, bribe some scholars, establish chairs for so-called “Turkish studies” and press other countries not to recognize the Armenian Genocide. One must not be so clever to conclude that the resources of the Armenian-American community is too small comparing to the resources and the capabilities of the member state of NATO.
Elif, Polish jurist Raphael Lemkin, when he coined the term genocide in 1944, cited the Turkish extermination of the Armenians and the Nazi extermination of the Jews as defining examples of what he meant by genocide (please don’t cite such web sites sponsored by the Turkish state to spread propaganda and fabrications WHICH HAVEN’T ANY VALUE).
Perhaps the first use of the word “holocaust” to describe a human rights disaster was on the front page of the “New York Times” on Sept. 10, 1895, in the headline “Another Armenian Holocaust”. The article describes the mass murder of more than five thousand Armenians by a force of one thousand Turkish troops in the Erzinjan district.
Another quotation from Winston Churchill’s book, “The World Crisis, vol. 5: Aftermath,” published i n New York in 1929, page 157, which stated:
“As for Turkish atrocities: marching till they dropped dead the greater part of the garrison at Kut; massacring uncounted thousands of helpless Armenians, men, women, and children together, whole districts blotted out in one administrative holocaust — these were beyond human redress.”
Also, Arnold Toynbee, in his book, “The Murder of a Nation,” published in 1915, uses the words “Armenian Holocaust” to describe the massacres.
Elif
Aram, I won’t answer your whole comment here because really we are not going anywhere with this (although I read it to the very end believe me), you still look at the issues one sided, it is obvious because you even claim that AGD is sponsored by Turkish goverment. AGD may not have any value for you (COS IT IS NOT SERVING YOUR CASUE) but it has for a lot of people and not only Turks by the way, foreigners who wants to know what really happened back then. To you, some of the admins being not even Turkish does not mean anything cos you are going to say that they are bought-out as well. You are right indeed, for you meaningful things are citations that support your cause, not the reality, not the evidence, not the history, not the logic and obviously not the common sense.
I just want to say that you ask me to keep on reading which I do and I also check your citations without trying to undermine them or without any prejudice, but unfortunately I can not tell the same for you. To you, your citations are free from bias to the very end, but the ones deying your accusations and with evidence by the way are all products of Turkish goverments spending millions of dollars on this issue (!).
I will keep on reading Aram, will you?
Kemal
Aram,
The article published in 1926 claims the statement attributed to Ataturk was made in 1923. Ok, read that sentence again, very carefully.
The article claims, that in 1923 Ataturk made statements about a genocide and an assasination attempt that did not occur until 3 years later.
Get it? The statements in the article attributed to Ataturk are a forgery, fake, a lie.
Did you try reading the excerpts from Ataturk’s Great Speech quoted above? Let me guess, ummm, since you don’t respond to them, NO.
Or, do you only read things that promote your position without regard to their credibility? Which only goes to show, you’re interest is not in historical truth.
Kemal
Here, Aram, let me help you.
BELOW ARE STATEMENTS MADE BY ATATURK DURING HIS GREAT SPEECH WHICH ARE UNDOUBTEDLY AND INDISPUTABLY DOCUMENTED AS HIS WORDS.
"[T]he possible cession of the Eastern Provinces to Armenia was the most important reason for [the Union for Defence of the National Rights of the Eastern Provinces] having been formed. They anticipated that this possibility might become a reality if those who tried to prove that the Armenians were in the majority in these provinces, claiming the oldest historical rights, were to succeed in misleading world public opinion by alleged scientific and historic documents and by perpetuating the slander that the Muslim population was composed of savages whose chief occupation was to massacre the Armenians. Consequently, the Society aimed at the defence of national and historic rights by corresponding methods and arguments."
Nutuk (Great Speech- English Language version), p. 4
"The assertions regarding the Armenian massacres were undoubtedly NOT in accordance with fact. For the Armenians in the south, armed by foreign troops and encouraged by the protection they enjoyed attacked the Muslims of their district.
Animated with the spirit of revenge, they pursued a relentless policy of murder and extermination everywhere. This was responsible for the tragic incident at Maras. Making common cause with the foreign troops, the Armenians had completely destroyed an old Muslim town like Maras by their artillery and machine-gun fire.
They killed thousands of innocent and defenceless women and children. The Armenians were the instigators of the atrocities, which were unique in history. The Muslims had merely offered resistance and had defended themselves with the object of saving their lives and their honour. The telegram which the Americans, who had remained in the town with the Muslims during the five days that the massacres continued, had sent to their representative in Istanbul, clearly indicates in an indisputable manner who were the originators of this tragedy.Threatened by the bayonets of the Armenians, who were armed to the teeth, the Muslims in the Vilayet of Adana were at that time in danger of being annihilated."
Nutuk (Great Speech - English Language version), pp. 319-20.
Kemal
Aram,
You should be careeful about making claims that Armenians don’t have much money to fund Armenian genocide claims.
Donations in excess of $250 made by the Armenia diaspora to politicians running forthe Senate, Congress and President are publicly available through the Federal Election Commission’s website. Only a little research shows that millions of dollars are donated to U.S. politicians each year by the diaspora.
ALSO, because ANCA and AAA are non-profits, their tax returns are also publicly available on the internet. It may be quite the eye-opener for you that one year, there was a single $10 Million donation made to one of those organizations.
Elif
Don’t bother Kemal. Thanks to some friend, I found about the funding of IAGS, guess what, the partner of IAGS in forming IAGS Journal is a division of Zoryan Institute called IIGHRS - International Institute of Genocide and Human Rights Studies. Apparently putting an international in the name frees an organization from all bias (indeed this is not even hidden in their website but unfortunately it is a little bit difficult to find the part related to this in the website). Even former president of IAGS is from Zoryan Institute and I thought this was an independant organization. Not every international organization is independant, I learn something everyday.
Check out the link to verify: genocidescholars.org/newsletter3may2005.html
Aram, claiming AGD being funded by Turkish goverment without having to give any evidence /a site which allows articles to be posted from both sides as long as they meet professional criteria / is giving examples from IAGS which is funded by Armenians in the first place and I am pretty sure he will say that partnerships with Zoryan Institute do not mean Armenian funding at all.
I am saying don’t bother because as I posted before, he is not after reality, he is just after anything that can support his cause to claim Western Armenia!!!. I thought that I could reasonably debate with him at the beginning but unfortunately I saw that I was wrong.
He is just keeping attacking the citations we give without any sound basis and then claiming his citations to be free from all bias, so as I said before, I do not think that he will ever read any scholars from the other side or any source contradicting his belief as a matter of fact, so I say it again, don’t bother because from now on I won’t.
Aram
Elif, you are free whether to comment or not on my posts, but you wanted the opinion of the majority of scholars about the Armenian Genocide.. Believe me I do not look at the issues one-sided, because the Ottoman Armenians experienced the genocide in 1915 and there are plenty of documents about that as I mentioned before. I also mentioned that the denial is a policy adopted by the Turkish state (as Turkish propaganda aimed at Turks). There are an increasing number of Turkish intellectuals who began to admit the Armenian genocide specially abroad. I can keep up posting details about this subject. An American journalist years before even interviewed old Turkish people in the Eastern provinces of Turkey and recorded what they knew or heard about the genocide and about the “children left beyond the sword” in these provinces (Armenian children not killed and adopted by Turkish families). The some descendants of those now declare their Armenian identity. The whole world knows about the Genocide. In Turkey all those who refer to the Armenian genocide are labelled as “Traitors” and tried under the article 301 of the Penal Code!!
In the US Congress (the external relations committee) when last year there was a vote on Res. 106 which was passed by 28 against 21 (I saw a live broadcast of it), no one even those who rejected the resolution claimed there was no genocide (as the Turkish state does), but they justified their refusal by the US national interests and not to bother the US ally in the region (Are those also funded by the Armenians?)!! You may also ask people who saw this voting to be sure I am telling the truth. Turkey’s government is in fear now if Obama is elected as US president (which is now very probable) he will recognise the Armenian genocide, though the US president Ronald Reagan acknowledged it in 1981 and the US Congress made it twice (in 1975 and 1984). I can offer you the texts of that if you want.
The Turkish government spends millions on propaganda in this issue is a fact. There was a posting about this and you and other people thinking like you doubted it “COS IT IS NOT SERVING YOUR CASUE”! I can offer other articles about this matter.
Also, I suggest you read this column:
Turks Scare Themselves by Claiming Armenians Spend Millions on Lobbying
armeniapedia.org/index.php? title=Turks_Scare_Themselves_by_Claiming_Armenians_Spend_Millions_on_Lobbying
To be continued..
Lucrèce
« The points several of you make about a minority of Armenian revolutionaries do not mean that a counter-massacre of any equal extent was committed by Armenians against Turks »
What a bad joke.
"After three months touring through the are occupied and devasted by the Russian army and the Christian Revenge army during the Spring and the Summer 1916, I have no hesitation in saying that the Turks would be able to make out as good a case againt their enemies that prestented against the Turks."
Major E. W. C. Noel, report of March 12, 1919, quoted in Guenter Lewy, The Armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey, Salt Lake City, University of Utah Press, 2005, p. 118.
"In the entire region from Bitlis through Van to Bayezit, we were informed that the damage and destruction had been done by the Armenians, who, after the Russians retired, remained in occupation of the country and who, when the Turkish army advanced, destroyed everything belonging to the Musulmans. Moreover, the Armenians are accused of having committed murder, rape, arson and horrible atrocities of every description upon the Musulman population. At first, we were most incredulous of these stories, but we finally came to believe them, since the testimony was absolutely unanimous and was corroborated by material evidence. For instance, the only quarters left at all intact in the cities of Bitlis and Van are Armenian quarters … while the Musulman quarters were completely destroyed."
Captain Emory N. Niles and Arthur E. Sutherland, report to US administration, August, 16 1919, US National Archives, 184.021/175
louisville.edu/a-s/history/turks/Niles_and_Sutherland.pdf
The first massacres in Eastern Anatolia during the WWI were perpetrated by Armenian revolutionaries, in November 1914.
Lucrèce
The French legislation criminalizing genocide denial has not been passed as law as the Senate has not voted on it. It seems unlikely that it will be.
Indeed. The Senate is notorious hostile to the "genocide fanfare", and even the anti-Turkish president Sarkozy is strongly opposite to this kind of law. The law of "recognition" was voted by the Senate after hate campaign and almost physical threats against Senators. Today, this sorts of campaign are not more possible.
Lucrèce
Also, Arnold Toynbee, in his book, “The Murder of a Nation,” published in 1915, uses the words “Armenian Holocaust” to describe the massacres.
Arnold J. Toynbee was, in 1915-1918, a very young historian, not specialist of the contemporary Anatolia or Near East, and employed by the Bryce’s gang. In all his other publications, he denied the WWI propaganda.
David
Dear Lucrece
Do you agree that the United States archives are a good source of finding out what happened in the Ottoman Empire during and after WW1? You seem to be using them as a reference for acts committed by Armenians. If so, you are going to be in a great shock, although there are a few isolated references that Armenians had committed atrocities, the overwhelming majority of U.S archival material at both a state and non-governmental level prove that there was a systematic campaign conducted by the Ottoman empire to exterminate the Armenians. Do you agree that the majority of U.S archival material on the Ottoman Empire during WW1 contains details of the Armenian genocide perpetrated by the Ottoman government?
Secondly, you quote from the Nile and Sutherland report, you forgot to include the following descriptive sentence: "the details of which were exactly the same as those perpetrated by the Turks upon the Armenians". This implies that the Armenians were massacred earlier and that atrocities committed upon the Turks were revenge attacks.
There is no denial on the part of the Armenians that individual Armenians committed atrocities against Turks as revenge acts. You must remember that there was no Armenian state at the time. There were Armenian subjects of the Ottoman Empire and Armenian subjects of the Russian Empire. These acts are not considered genocide. Orders were not given by the rulers of the "Armenian empire ". Certainly they need to be condemned and as an Armenian I am ashamed of such acts.
The Ottoman government ordered the deportation of the Armenians throughout the Ottoman Empire. Armenians from over 2000 towns and villages were deported within a short period of time from one another. It is this systematic nature of the Armenian deportations which consititutes genocide, because most were killed or died as a result of the deportations. Laws were passed by the Ottoman government to confiscate the abandoned properties.
Armenian revolutionaries had existed since the 1880’s. They were smaller in number and less powerful than the Turkish/Kurdish irregulars who were committing atrocities against the Armenians in those regions for decades before. The Armenians were not a monolithic group, not all Armenians were revolutionaries. The revolutionaries were located in isolated regions of South East Anatolia. Before 1908, Armenians were not allowed to bear arms, while their Moslem overlords were allowed. This resulted in many social justice issues which are recorded but not known by most Turks. It is natural to want to exxagerate the strength of the Armenian revolutionaries. There was no evidence of any Armenian revolutionaries in the western provinces of Anatolia such as Bursa, Eskshehir, Afionkarahissar, Konya etc. However, practically all the Armenians in these regions were deported. There is no excuse to deport, women, children and elderly, they cannot be a threat to a state.
There are growing number of Turkish intellectuals who have come to terms with their history despite the intimidation of article 301. The numbers will continue to grow as more Turkish intellectuals sincerely seek the truth. I understand it is difficult, but I am confident that in time most Turks will come to realise that a "deep state" has existed in Turkey which has manipulated public opinion by presenting a distorted version of history.
The Armenians were considered the loyal Millet, and in fact for many, Turkish was their first language. They fought for the Empire during the Balkan wars and at the battle of Sarikamish. Armenian doctors served in the Red Crescent attending wounded Ottomans. The reason why the Turkish government wanted to exterminate the Armenians is rooted in ultra-nationalism, Pan-Turkism and demographic engineering. The reform agreement for the Armenian provinces signed by Turkey and Russia in early 1914 provided the catalyst for the decision to solve the Armenian question. The reform agreement was the first step for the Armenians in receiving greater power in government and ultimately having more autonomy.
The Armenians had been under Ottoman rule for about 6 centuries. Turks have never been under the rule of an Armenian empire. Maybe you should read more about how the Armenians were treated during this time. Put yourself in their shoes. Imagine after the greek occupation of 1919, they remained for 600 years. Wouldn’t you want the occupiers to leave? Well, the Armenians were in eastern Anatolia for at least 2000 years before the arrival of the Turks. Our culture is purely Caucasian and Anatolian unlike the Turkish which is predominately central Asian and infused with Anatolian culture.
Lucrèce
Do you agree that the United States archives are a good source of finding out what happened in the Ottoman Empire during and after WW1? You seem to be using them as a reference for acts committed by Armenians. If so, you are going to be in a great shock, although there are a few isolated references that Armenians had committed atrocities, the overwhelming majority of U.S archival material at both a state and non-governmental level prove that there was a systematic campaign conducted by the Ottoman empire to exterminate the Armenians. Do you agree that the majority of U.S archival material on the Ottoman Empire during WW1 contains details of the Armenian genocide perpetrated by the Ottoman government?
« An examination of the voluminous file listing the “accusations” against individual Malta detainees reveals the weakness of the legal case against them. For example, a note in the chart of Abbas Halim Pasha, minister of public works in 1915, stated: “No specific accusation has been made. He was a member of the cabinet which ordered the deportation entailing, the massacre of hundred thousands of Christians.” Several other ministers and CUP officials similarly found themselves as prisoners of the British simply on account of the office they had held. Ziya Gökalp had been a member of the CUP central committee; the military court in Constantinople that had tried him had produced non evidence whatever implicating him in any wrongdoing, yet he wound up in Malta accused of “atrocities”. The source of this accusation was not identified. Ahmed Muammer Bey, the vali of Sivas, was also accused of atrocities, in his case on the basis of incriminating telegrams that his dossier referred as “alleged to be translations of Turkish official telegrams”. Several dossiers include documents from the Andonian-Naim book.
Practically all the information in the dossiers had come from Armenian sources, who, under the trauma of the deportations and massacres, were inclined to accept almost any allegation of Turkish guilty. Even the processing of the information in the Armenian-Greek section of the office of the high commissioner was in Armenian hands. Until he was no longer needed in November 1920, the head clerk and keeper of records in the section was an Armenian named A. Fenerdjian. As mentioned earlier, another archivist was Haigazn Kazarian. For good reasons none of the information laboriously collected was considered legal evidence admissible before a British court of law.
In their search for evidence the British turned to the United States. […] On July 13 [1921], after an embassy staff member had personally examinated “a selection of reports from United States Consuls on the subject of the atrocities committed during the recent war” and had checked the files for any mention of forty-five Malta detainees accused of outrages against Armenians and other Christians, the ambassador sent a follow-up report, which again was negative:
“I regret to inform Your Lordship that there was nothing therein which could be used as evidence against the Turks who are being detained for trial at Malta. The reports seen, while furnishing full accounts of the atrocities committed, made mention, however, of only two names of the Turkish officials in question ― those of Sabit Bey and Suleiman Faik Pasha ― and these cases were confirmed to personal opinions of theses officials on the part of writer, no concrete facts being given which could constitute satisfactory incriminating evidence.” »
Guenter Lewy, The Armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey. A Disputed Genocide, University of Utah Press, 2005, pp. 125/126.
Secondly, you quote from the Nile and Sutherland report, you forgot to include the following descriptive sentence: "the details of which were exactly the same as those perpetrated by the Turks upon the Armenians". This implies that the Armenians were massacred earlier and that atrocities committed upon the Turks were revenge attacks.
The massacres of Armenians by some Turks and, most frequently, by Kurds and Circassians, constitute an historial fact, not contested, even by Yusuf Halaçoğlu. The repression of this atrocities by the Ottoman authorities, under the responsability of Talat Pacha, constitute another historical fact.
The massacres documented by the Niles-Sutherland report constitute certainly acts of revenge, but for a part only. At least the massacres between December 1917 and February 1918 cannot in anyway be considered as act of revenge, but only as the worst kind of ethnic cleansing.
Moreover, there were other Armenian atrocities, before the deportations (especially in the vilayet of Van), documented in Ottoman archives and, for a part, in account of missionaries. The book of Kara Schemsi (Turcs et Arméniens devant l’histoire, Genève, Imprimerie nationale, 1919) contains several accounts of atrocities, including mass killings and rapes, perpetrated between November 1914 and May 1915. The first shot was fired by Armenian revolutionaries, not by the CUP.
I have not the time to continue this discussion (because holidays), but I could again in the second part of August.
Aram
Kemal, I got you, but you didn’t get me! I said the interview was made in 1926 (not in 1923 as you claim maybe referring to that web site of fabrications of “Holdwater”!) and was published in the same year. No journalist would have made an interview with a state’s president and wait for 3 years to publish it!! Then about Ataturk’s speeches, Akcam states, according to archives, that Ataturk referred twice to the mass killings of Armenians (in 1915) in his speeches in the Turkish Grand Mejlis. If you read the speeches you referred to from Nutuk, Ataturk is denying the Armenian massacres in his era (not in the Young Turk’s era). This is obvious in the second speech. About the money spent by the Armenians and the Turkish claims, I suggest you read the column I referred to above. Also read this article about the money spent by the Turkish state to cover up the Armenian Genocide. U.S. Politicians and Scholars Are Helping Turkey Cover up WWI Armenian Genocide: (“Turkey exerts political leverage and spends millions of dollars in the United States to obfuscate the Armenian genocide”) www.alternet.org/rights/87223/ Elif, are all the scholars who tell the truth about the genocide funded by the Armenians?!!(Then, how much money the Armenians would spend to convince the majority of scholars that genocide took place ?!). If this is true, Turkey will have more chance with its state resources. Then why 22 countries recognized the Armenian Genocide?! (beside other bodies like the European Parliament) Are all those funded by the Armenians?!! Most of these countries have good relations with Turkey, and even Poland, that recognized the Armenian genocide, have no Armenian community to press the recognition, and Germany (which was Ottoman Empire’s ally in WW1 and the great supporter now for Turkey to enter the EU) has small Armenian community (30 thousand) comparing to Turkish influential community (3 million). Then, what about the statement of distinguished Jewish scholars from all over the world that affirm the Armenian genocide and other statements? Are they also funded by the Armenians?! Elif, thank you for the link you offered. The paragraph you referred to is: “The journal will be the official journal of IAGS, and it will be published by the University of Toronto Press.
Our partner in founding and publishing the journal will be the International Institute of Genocide and Human Rights Studies (IIGHRS), which is a division of the Zoryan Institute, an organization well known for its major contributions not only to study of the Armenian Genocide but to scholarship and education about genocide as a universal problem and as the ultimate crime against humanity which must be fought by all the peoples of our planet. The Chair of the Academic Board of Directors of Zoryan is our own former president of IAGS, Roger Smith,…” Read it well: The date here is May, 2005, which means it came after the signing of the open letter to Turkish Prime Minister in April 6, and 8 years after 1997 when the International Association of Genocide Scholars, an organization of the world’s foremost experts on genocide, unanimously passed a formal resolution affirming the Armenian Genocide. Then, to be a partner in founding and publishing a journal does not mean IAGS is financed by the Armenians or Zoryan, but the reason is mentioned there: Zoryan is “well known for its major contributions not only to study of the Armenian Genocide but to scholarship…” and that Smith was first president of IAGS and then became Zoryan’s Chair of the Academic Board of Directors and not the opposite. Also read: reference.com/browse/wiki/International_Association_of_Genocide_Scholars en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Association_of_Genocide_Scholars (Here Lewy didn’t say IAGS is funded by the Armenians)
Bedros
The Tehcir Law ("Regulation for the settlement of Armenians relocated to other places because of war conditions and emergency political requirements") was passed by the Ottoman Parliament on May 27, 1915 and allegedly came into force on June 1, 1915, with publication in Takvim-i Vekayi, the official gazette of the Ottoman State. The temporary law expired on February 8, 1916.
Tehcir_Law
Lucrèce
They were smaller in number and less powerful than the Turkish/Kurdish irregulars who were committing atrocities against the Armenians in those regions for decades before. The Armenians were not a monolithic group, not all Armenians were revolutionaries. The revolutionaries were located in isolated regions of South East Anatolia.
What a bad joke.
« Even before 1878, in the regions of Daron-Sasoun and Vasbouragan there had been underground cells, secret groups, and bands of "brigands" who fought against government forces. During the eighties, Khrimian and Mgrdich Portugalian were active in Van […] Expelled from Van in 1885, Mgrdich Portugalian left the Ottoman Empire and settled in Marseille, where he published the periodical ‘Armenia’. His students and friends in Van considered “Armenia” their voice, and in 1886 established the Armenagan Party, the purpose of which was to “secure the sovereignty of the Armenian people through revolution”. » Hracht Dasnabédian, History of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, Milan, Gemme Edizioni, 1989, p. 21. « As Your Excellency is aware, these three parties [ARF-Dashnak, Hunchak and Armenakan] at Van some six month ago, agreed to sink their differences and unite for the purpose of dealing the with such matters as concerned the general interest of the Millet. The influence of the Dashnakist parti however far exceeds that of the other two, owing to the more active and extreme policy it pursues. It is well organized, has a regular and apparently considerable income for subscriptions, and has its agents throughout the Armenian villages in the vilayet who work for the party and keep in touch with the Central Committee in Van. This party during the past year has actively concerned itself with the secret importation of arms and their distribution amongst its followers. Mauser pistols are the favourite weapon; they are easy hidden and imported and can be used as carbine, being sighted up to 1000 meters. I have seen Armenians openly carrying these arms in the country districts, and though I have seen no rifles in the few villages I have had the opportunity of visiting, a good number of the inhabitants displayed a familiar knowledge of the different types of rifles and mechanism. In Van, it is said that the Armenians are now better armed than the Kurds, and there is no doubt that they have obtained a number of modern rifles in addition to the few old Martinis which the government has distributed to each village. » British consul Ian Smith, report of January 10, 1914, quoted in Justin McCarthy, Esat Arslan, Cemalettin Tashkiran and Ömer Turan, The Armenian Rebellion at Van, Salt Lake City, University of Utah Press, 2006, p. 184. « Armenians of Deurtyol are now well armed with modern rifles, every male adult having one in his possession. » 1913, October 21 -Consul Fontana to His Majesty’s Charge de Affairs Aleppo FO, 371/1773. N° 52128 In Sir P. Mallet’s Despatch No 925 of Kov. 12 (Deurtyol is a town very close to Alexandretta with an Armenian Population of about 5 000). « …Boghos Nubar Pasha has represented to me that the Armenian population of Cilicia would be ready to enroll themselves as volunteers in support of a possible disembarkation at Alexandretta, Mersina, or Adana on the part of the allied forces. » 1914, Nov 12 -Mr. Chetham to Sir Edward Grey FO, 371/2146, No. 70404 Cairo, November 12, 1914. No. 257 (Telegraphic).
Lucrèce
« Even before 1878, in the regions of Daron-Sasoun and Vasbouragan there had been underground cells, secret groups, and bands of "brigands" who fought against government forces. During the eighties, Khrimian and Mgrdich Portugalian were active in Van […] Expelled from Van in 1885, Mgrdich Portugalian left the Ottoman Empire and settled in Marseille, where he published the periodical ‘Armenia’. His students and friends in Van considered “Armenia” their voice, and in 1886 established the Armenagan Party, the purpose of which was to “secure the sovereignty of the Armenian people through revolution”. »
Hracht Dasnabédian, History of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, Milan, Gemme Edizioni, 1989, p. 21.
« As Your Excellency is aware, these three parties [ARF-Dashnak, Hunchak and Armenakan] at Van some six month ago, agreed to sink their differences and unite for the purpose of dealing the with such matters as concerned the general interest of the Millet. The influence of the Dashnakist parti however far exceeds that of the other two, owing to the more active and extreme policy it pursues. It is well organized, has a regular and apparently considerable income for subscriptions, and has its agents throughout the Armenian villages in the vilayet who work for the party and keep in touch with the Central Committee in Van. This party during the past year has actively concerned itself with the secret importation of arms and their distribution amongst its followers. Mauser pistols are the favourite weapon; they are easy hidden and imported and can be used as carbine, being sighted up to 1000 meters. I have seen Armenians openly carrying these arms in the country districts, and though I have seen no rifles in the few villages I have had the opportunity of visiting, a good number of the inhabitants displayed a familiar knowledge of the different types of rifles and mechanism. In Van, it is said that the Armenians are now better armed than the Kurds, and there is no doubt that they have obtained a number of modern rifles in addition to the few old Martinis which the government has distributed to each village. » British consul Ian Smith, report of January 10, 1914, quoted in Justin McCarthy, Esat Arslan, Cemalettin Tashkiran and Ömer Turan, The Armenian Rebellion at Van, Salt Lake City, University of Utah Press, 2006, p. 184. « Armenians of Deurtyol are now well armed with modern rifles, every male adult having one in his possession. »
1913, October 21 -Consul Fontana to His Majesty’s Charge de Affairs Aleppo FO, 371/1773. N° 52128 In Sir P. Mallet’s Despatch No 925 of Kov. 12 (Deurtyol is a town very close to Alexandretta with an Armenian Population of about 5 000).
« …Boghos Nubar Pasha has represented to me that the Armenian population of Cilicia would be ready to enroll themselves as volunteers in support of a possible disembarkation at Alexandretta, Mersina, or Adana on the part of the allied forces. »
1914, Nov 12 -Mr. Chetham to Sir Edward Grey FO, 371/2146, No. 70404 Cairo, November 12, 1914. No. 257 (Telegraphic).
« Thousands of Armenians from all over the world flocked to the standards of such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer regiments rendered valuable services to the Russian Army in tbe years of 1914-15-16. However, their deeds of heroism and the blood they shed in the conquest of Turkish Armenia by Russia, did not help the Armenian cause. The Dashnag leaders declared, that the Russian government had promised freedom for Armenia. There was no foundation to this: and the deception was exposed finally. But thousands of Armenians had already answered the false call, and incidentally, millions were poured into the coffers of the Dashnak "National Bureau". […] Many Armenians believe that the fate of two millions of their co-nationals in Turkey might nut have proved so disastrous if more prudence had been used by the Dashnag leaders during the war. »
Kapriel S. Papazian, Patriotism Perverted, Boston, Baikar Press, 1934, pp. 38-39.
« Armenian volunteers fought on all the fronts. […] In the Caucasus were in addition to the 150 000 Armenian men who served in the Russian army 50 000 men and thousands of volunteers fought throughout under the supreme commandment of General Nazarbekian. »
A. Aharonian and Boghos Nubar, The Armenian Question Before the Peace Conference, memorandum of the Armenian Delegation, February 1919, p. 6.
« This daring atep on the part of Sasoun forced the Turkish commander to march on Sasoun with two divisions of troops and with nearly 30,000 Kurds. From the first days of July to Sept. 8, the Sasounians were able to resist the Turco-Kurdish attacks, always with the hope that the Russian army would come to their assistance. […] At Shabin-Karahissar, nearly 5,000 Armenians, for twenty-seven days without interruption, in the same month of July [1915], kept busy another division of Turkish troops with their artillery. »
G. Pasdermabijan, Why Armenia Should Be Free, Boston, Hairenik Publishing, 1918, pp. 25-27.
Lucrèce
The book of Kara Schemsi (Turcs et Arméniens devant l’histoire, Genève, Imprimerie nationale, 1919) contains several accounts of atrocities, including mass killings and rapes, perpetrated between November 1914 and May 1915. The first shot was fired by Armenian revolutionaries, not by the CUP.
The online version of this book:
louisville.edu/a-s/history/turks/turcs_et_armeniens.pdf
For those who cannot read the French, there is this compilation of testimonies, translated into English:
karabakh-doc.azerall.info/ru/armyanstvo/arm12eng.htm#z3
An this English version of Ottoman documents:
louisville.edu/a-s/history/turks/Documents2.pdf
Lucrèce
There was no evidence of any Armenian revolutionaries in the western provinces of Anatolia such as Bursa, Eskshehir, Afionkarahissar, Konya etc.
« Izmit et ses environs, et particulièrement Baghtchédjik, étaient
devenus des centres révolutionnaires extrêmement actifs et qui, avec ceux de la province de Brousse [= Bursa] se trouvèrent à la tête de tous les mouvements. Ce sont ces centres qui entretenaient en grande partie le Tachnaktzoutioun à Constantinople et son organe l’Azadamard. Quant aux Arméniens d’Ada-Bazar, leurs sentiments se dessinèrent quelques années après la Constitution, lors de la fête des saints Sahak et Messrop, inventeurs des caractères arméniens, pendant larquelle ils tuèrent quelques gendarmes et agents de police. Depuis lors, il s’y produisit tous les jours de nouveaux événements dont chacun constituait une attaque à l’amour propre et à la dignité des Musulmans. »
Aspirations et agissement révolutionnaires des comités arméniens avant et après la proclamation de la Constitution ottomane, Istanbul, 1917, p. 213 (available online: louisville.edu/a-s/history/turks/comites_armeniens.pdf )
Approximative translation:
“Izmit and its environs, and particularly Baghtchédjik were extremely active revolutionary centers wich, with those of the province of Bursa found themselves at the head of all movements. These are centers which largely maintained the Tachnaktzoutioun in Constantinople and his body the Azadamard. As the Armenians Ada-Bazar, their sentiments drew few years after the Constitution during the feast of Sts Sahak and Messrop, inventors characters Armenians, during they killed some gendarmes and police officers. Since then, he produced every day new events each of which constituted an attack on self-esteem and dignity of Muslims.”
Moreover, the Armenians of several cities of Western Anatolia, like Izmir and Aydin, were not relocated.
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