12 March 2011

3235) Second Move in the 2011 Genocide Obfuscation Gambit-Comments By Sukru Aya

The Second Move in the 2011 Genocide Obfuscation Gambit? By David Davidian, ARMENIAN WEEKLY, Mar 4 2011

Comments by Sukru Server Aya

At about this time every year the Turkish government engages in political antics, the purpose of which is to counter any incremental success Armenians have achieved in their quest for recognition of the Turkish genocide of 1.5 million Armenians.

The Governments for the past 40 years have not taken this fabricated accusation (without any legal or documented foundation)…nor the absurdity of killing 1.5 millions out of a total of 1.3 or 1.4 millionsl population but leaving a balance of 1.4 millions living at the end of 1921. Somebody is deliberately lying!

During April 1915, under the guise of World War I, the Turkish government condemned the entire Armenian citizenry under its jurisdiction, and some of the neighboring lands, to extermination. The crime and denial of genocide isn’t a game, but international relations is a contest.

Surely genocide is a very serious crime, which must be substantiated by the verdict of an authorized international tribunal with legal accusations, proceedings, defense and valid verdict.
. . The writer, if he had read just a tiny bit of Armenian historians, he would have known that revolutionary battalions or volunteers have been active even before the war started cutting the supply and communication lines and they were supplied by villagers obligatorily. They and their supporters had to be removed for military necessities, since Armenians in the East had already revolted, not only assisted Russians in their attacks and defenses, but also occupied and declared the Republic of Van in May 191… before the Relocation Law was enforced. We have documentary evidence that 80.000 Muslims of Van have been killed and/or made flee, and that the Muslim section of the city was leveled to zero ground. The writer can still see it today if he visits the place.


The Second Move in the 2011 Genocide Obfuscation Gambit? By David Davidian

At about this time every year the Turkish government engages in political antics, the purpose of which is to counter any incremental success Armenians have achieved in their quest for recognition of the Turkish genocide of 1.5 million Armenians.

During April 1915, under the guise of World War I, the Turkish government condemned the entire Armenian citizenry under its jurisdiction, and some of the neighboring lands, to extermination. The crime and denial of genocide isn’t a game, but international relations is a contest.

In past years, major U.S. defense contractors have pressured members of Congress not to undertake any vote for genocide recognition, so as not to “offend” their Turkish customers. Also, past U.S. secretaries of state have either individually or collectively pleaded a similar story to members of Congress, recommending that any recognition of genocide would anger the Turks.

The U.S. Congress regularly reaffirms or otherwise memorializes historical events, including the near-destruction of Native Americas and the Nazi Holocaust of European Jews. Official U.S. recognition, and to a similar extent an Israeli recognition, of the genocide of the Armenians would ease the way for Armenian reparations. Turkey is becoming more confident of its role globally and in the region. It endeavors to assert influence by representing itself as a big brother to regional Muslim states. Turkey finds itself in a position from which it can simultaneously divert the attention of the Armenian Diaspora while providing face-saving excuses vis-a-vis engagement with Armenia for major powers to ignore Armenian demands for genocide recognition.

Since around 2003, Armenia and Turkey have been in deliberations with the goal of establishing diplomatic relations and opening their common border. This border was unilaterally shut by Turkey in 1993 as Armenian forces were succeeding in securing the region of Nagorno-Karabagh from Azerbaijani rule. “The Protocol on the Establishment of Diplomatic Relations Between the Republic of Armenia and the Republic of Turkey” was officially signed and simultaneously announced in Berne, Yerevan, and Ankara on Aug. 31, 2009. On the heals of this announcement, Turkey attached preconditions to any Turkish ratification. As a result, this document is all but dead, even though the signed protocol passed legal approval by Armenia’s Constitutional Court. It was rather presumptuous for Turkey to have set post-facto preconditions. This lack of Turkish resolve allowed the Armenian president, Serge Sarkisian, the latitude to take a tougher stance on the genocide issue. On March 24, 2010, at the Armenian Genocide Memorial in the Syrian desert at Der Zor, Sarkisian gave a hard-hitting speech against the policies of the Turkish government, calling it the last stop on the Armenian death marches. He called Der Zor the Armenian Auschwitz. As Sun Tzu said, “Opportunities multiply as they are seized.”

On Feb. 7, 2011 in an article published in the Turkish newspaper Sabah, author Duygu Guvenc wrote that the Turkish minister of state, Egemen Bagis, after attending the Jan. 27, 2011 Holocaust Remembrance Day (a first for a Turkish state minister) in Istanbul, was instructed to subsequently attend Armenian April 24th activities. Apparently only Sabah reported this, although it was picked up by many Armenian media outlets. Since Guvenc’s article is still on an active website and has not been retracted, it appears to be an official trial balloon looking for any Armenian reaction. Alternatively, it could be Turkey’s first move in the 2011 genocide obfuscation gambit.

It is a challenge to suggest or predict Armenia’s reaction to this Turkish ploy because moves like these are not zero-sum, nor made in isolation. There is also a lack of information from ongoing diplomatic efforts, if they even exist, in whatever form. There are costs in making foreign policy decisions, and similarly, in not making them. Given the limited information available to us, what might an Armenian response be?

Turkish general elections are scheduled for this year. According to polls, the AK Party has been steadily gaining popularity. Currently, it enjoys a substantial lead over its nationalist contender, the CHP. AKP leaders may feel they can take a chance with bolder genocide obfuscation tactics considering such moves are coming at a time of transforming events in the region, placing such risky foreign policy moves out of media limelight in Turkey. This is not the case with citizens of Armenia or its diaspora, who view Turkish moves differently than official Yerevan. Turkey knows this and modulates its foreign policy moves associated with genocide denial, highlighting such nuances.

Foreign policy moves are based on extracting the maximum benefit from prevailing conditions. They are not based on right or wrong, good or bad, but rather on interests. We know the overarching Turkish interest is deferring accepting responsibility for the crime of genocide.

Armenia should immediately invite the Turkish president, Abdullah Gul, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, and Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu to attend the April 24th genocide commemoration at Armenia’s Genocide Memorial at Dzidzernagapert. Turkey should be given a specific time limit to respond or the invitation is pulled. The Turkish delegation can join the hundreds of thousands of Armenians who gather to commemorate the victims of the 1915 genocide. The Turkish delegation would be accorded the customary VIP protocol at the Dzidzernagapert Memorial and attend lectures by prominent scholars. If Turkey was bluffing, Armenia will not. Armenia thus forces Turkey not to attend a genocide commemoration in some obscure Armenian community out of shear embarrassment by refusing this invitation.

There are many scenarios that can be played out. As an exercise below, a simplistic flow of events that could characterize the 2011 genocide obfuscation season is suggested.


























Turkey’s MoveArmenia’s MoveComment
Turkish Minister Bagis attending Armenian genocide commemoration printed in Sabah.Any Armenian unconditional approval will be viewed as weakness.
Armenia waits for an official request while asking Turks for immediate clarification of intent. This must take place by early March.An Armenian rejection will be an advantage to Turks. Armenia knows this.
Turkey delays response to Armenian request for clarification.Turkey will delay a response in an attempt to maximize condemnation of the Armenian government from its diaspora.
Armenia waits no later than late March for a Turkish response.Armenia lays plans for an enhanced genocide commemoration at Armenian Genocide Memorial and makes it a publicly announced intention.
Turkey responds that it is interested in attending a genocide commemoration.Turkey is still using delay tactics and announces it is talking with Armenia.
Early April 2011: Armenia formally invites highest level Turkish representatives to Genocide Memorial commemoration.Turkey is somewhat taken off guard, thanks Armenia for the invitation.
Turkey responds it cannot arrange for such an entourage to visit Armenia given so little time, but is willing to send lower-level representatives to an alternate event in some diaspora communities.Turks have no intention of attending any genocide commemorations.
Armenia announces it called Turkey’s bluff on their false intention.Turks can claim they never made an official request.

If the chain of events unfold close to the above, Armenia could use the outcome, internationally, as yet another example of Turkish disingenuousness. Armenia does its best to comply with the wishes of the international community, but as with the 2009 protocols, Turkey added preconditions after nearly five years of deliberations, eventually killing the agreement.


“Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance,” wrote Sun Tzu.


www.armenianweekly.com/2011/03/04/the-second-move-in-the-2011-genocide-obfuscation-gambit/



Click Here For A Direct Link To The Document





31 Comments ( http://www.armenianweekly.com/2011/03/04/the-second-move-in-the-2011-genocide-obfuscation-gambit/)

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Taline
March 4, 2011

The first parts of this article are quite good, but not the last parts. If Turkey attends an April 24th event in Hayastan, this will be viewed as one more reason by the US and others to not push Turkey to acknowledge the genocide or open the border, since they will say that Turkey and Armenia are making peace on their own. I don’t see how that benefits Armenia and it will just anger a lot of us,

The other scenario is Turkey does not attend April 24. Tha author thinks this will shame Turkey and make it look bad. Maybe a bit, but not much. Turkey denies all wrongdoing versus Armenians, Greeks and just about any group you can name such as Kurds and Alevis, and it gets away with it, and people forget about it, with some minor criticisms here and there.

So Turkey does not show up for April 24. So what? It will suffer very little. It is not even clear that Turkey ever announced it would attend any April 24 event. I read a report somewhere that it was only just a rumor that was blown up into a true report.
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???
March 4, 2011

I disagree with Taline. I think the last part is a great idea. I’ve written a long comment about this in the other article explaining why I think a tactic like this is great and even necessary. Like I said before, as genocide deniers, Turkish officials cannot attend the Genocide Memorial in Yerevan. It doesn’t matter what their intentions are. If they show up at the Genocide Memorial, it would look like the Turks are finally coming to terms with their past and are offering condolences. This would be EVEN MORE of a reason for the US government to reaffirm their acknowledgement of the Genocide.
I’m going to paste the last paragraph of my other comment here (and make an addition):

“The Turkish population would be staunchly opposed to this sort of thing because this would look like an admission of guilt, whether-or-not this is the intention of the Turkish officials. If someone lays a wreath in front of a statue that specifically says “This is dedicated to the victims of the ARMENIAN GENOCIDE,” it means that individual recognizes the GENOCIDE committed on the ARMENIANS and is offering condolences. If headlines say ‘Turkish Officials Commemorate Armenian Genocide,’ what would that look like? The AKP is playing with fire with this ‘friendly relations’ tactic. It can easily back-fire on them. I say, we make it. Then watch them lose their next elections.

In my humble opinion, we can turn the tides if we play our cards right.”
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Robert
March 5, 2011

Well, as long as dashnak Armenians remain in total denial, and the editorial board obliges this by practicing archaic censorships and deletions, then no “tide will be turned”!
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manooshag
March 5, 2011

If Turkeys can appear to the civilized world that as if they have resurrected (generously) the ancient Christian Armenian churches and cathedrals for the Armenians – but then say to the Armenians that these sites are now turk museums and ONLY available to the Armenians for religious services ONCE yearly… Such actions, as so many others which have been ongoing/unending PLOYs of a turkey in perpetuity… are lies, as are all their denials of the Turkish Genocide of Armenians. The Ottoman strain of the hordes from the Asian mountains – still exists.
Manooshag
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ashot yerkat
March 6, 2011

I think we should welcome all Turks that wish to attend the Memorial (the more the better) and give them a copy of my CALL, rolled and tied with a red ribbon (depicting blood), just like they do in graduation ceremonies; welcome them one by one and present them a rolled CALL. Here is my CALL.

CALL
Looking for My Long Lost ‘Cousin’
Hello, my Turkish “friend.” Are you sure your great-grandmother was not Armenian?

Between 1896 and 1915, continued to 1923, the Armenian population of current eastern Turkey was systematically annihilated. They were simply dislodged from their hometowns, able-bodied men were separated from the family and killed, and the old folks, women and children were forcibly marched from village to village until they all perished.

During these marches, whenever the group passed through a village, the Turkish village-boys, and men, helped themselves to Armenian females and young girls for sex. They also helped themselves to young boys for the same purpose. It was a big free-for-all. They would abduct them, take them home, and the whole clan would use them as sex-slaves, for years. Thousands of them.

Some of these girls eventually became pregnant and bore children. Turks being historically nomadic and familial invariably accepted these babies into the family, and they grew up as another child of the family. The boys, in turn, upon reaching manhood became love objects of the Turkish wife, the “khanoom,” who, also, eventually became pregnant, and their children, likewise, became part of the family.

These half-Armenian children grew up as Turkish speaking men and women who married and made families and carried on their normal lives thinking they are Turks.

My long lost ‘cousin’ may be one of these half-Armenians.

Hello, my Turkish “friend.” Are you sure you are not my ‘cousin’? Are you sure your great-grandmother, or great-grandfather, was not Armenian? … ARE YOU SURE?

We may be ‘cousins,’ after all.
Why don’t you go find out.
And yes, “One percent Armenian equals hundred percent Armenian.”

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Robert
March 6, 2011

Manooshag,

Please explain how 518K Turks were killed, and an eventual total of 2.5M Moslem and non-Moslem lives were lost (including non-dashnak Armenians) due to ARF Armenian dashnak rebellious actions? Since you obviously know everything and are never in denial, this simple question should be no problem for you.
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David Davidian
March 6, 2011


Serious international relations is more like a continuum, rather a series of one-offs. It is not zero-sum, where my gain is your loss. It a game of taking advantage when it is in your interest (assuming you know them) and keeping quite when it is not. Turkey is rather good at this game. Frankly, I am surprised Turkey miscalculated by adding pre-conditions post-facto to the 2009 Protocols. However, one could conclude that the Protocols were simply not important to them, even though the US, EU, and Russia invested heavily in the agreement. But further, reneging on the Protocol is just another indication that Turkey endeavors to blaze its own foreign policy in the region.

As in before, during, and after WWII, Turkey had to make certain decisions. By not making the best ones, it could have lost heavily. It wavered enough in the late 1930s until France basically gave the Alexandretta Sanjak to Turkey as a bribe not to enter the impending war on the side of Germany. Turkey stayed “neutral” but positioned itself to take advantage regardless of who won the war. It simultaneously engaged in forcing a Capital tax on Armenians, Jews and Greeks, took in some Jews escaping Hitler while rejecting others. It claimed neutrality but the Turkish Generals Staff visited Berlin to make an assessment of the war’s outcome. When its eastern border was threatened by Stalin in the late 1940s, Turkey jumped on the NATO bandwagon.

Today, Turkey is engaged in tactics it views as advantageous. It is trying to play a middleman between Iran and the west over the Iranian nuclear issue, yet Iran and Turkey appear to be regional rivals. Turkey is confronting Israel as a way to gain advantage in the “Arab street”. Yet Turkey cares as much for the Palestinians as does Iran for that matter. Both are using the Israeli-Palestinian issue for their own ends. If Iran falters in its nuclear program, it can be in Turkey’s benefit. If Iran demonstrates nuclear weapons capability, Turkey will be its number one ally, all the while accelerating its own nuclear program.

Currently, Armenia appears to be playing this game as best it can, given the western isolation it was handed after the successful defense of Nagorno-Karabakh. Armenia was forced into a Russian orbit with only a north-south economic axis remaining. Armenia has to be as shrewd as possible even to the point of what appears to be gambling.

David Davidian
http://www.regionalkinetics.com
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jda
March 6, 2011

“Robert” is a fantasist whose military experience is likely limited to dressing his GI Joe, and whose knowledge of military history is based upon the propaganda the Turkish state distributes.

As Halil Berktay has pointed out to anyone capable of reading, the Armenians could not have killed Turkish civilians within the order of magnitude Robert parrots for some simple reasons nobody can deny. They could not assemble the civilians, could not escort them to killing areas, did not control the roads, and lacked the logistical resources to carry out such things which, by the way, the Turkish forces did do to Armenians, Greeks, Pontians and Assyrians in huge numbers.

The “logic” behind Robert’s numbers works like this: Ottoman forces declare war against the Russians, and the western powers. The Russians and their allies attack the OE, as those against whom war is declared tend to do, and Turkish as well as Greek and Armenian subjects die as a result. Some of the Russian, French and American soldiers were ethnic Armenians. Therefore, all “Moslem” deaths are the fault of Armenians.

Overlooked by Robert are the deaths in the scores of thousands of Arab Moslems inflicted by OE forces, as are tHe 200k Armenian men who perished in the OE Army, some in battle, and some after being disarmed and worked to death or killed outright.

Robert writes Nazi-style obscenity. He should be banned. The First Amendment nowhere requires any private publication to publish anything.
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Avery
March 6, 2011

Robert:

Your pathetic and futile efforts – on these posts – to drive some kind of an imaginary wedge between the rest of Armenians and the ARF/Dashnaktsutiun is comical. (i.e. re “…Moslem and non-Moslem lives were lost (including non-dashnak Armenians)…”)

There is no daylight between worldwide Armenian community and our various political parties, new and old, including ARF.
We have our internal squabbles, like everybody else, but those are our family squabbles – foreigners, Stay Out.

I belong to no political party, but have many close (blood) relatives who are either members of ARF or sympathetic to their philosophy.
I also have Ramgavar and Hunchak relatives and friends.

I know of the many tactical and strategic mistakes ARF has made: don’t know of any political movement that has made no mistakes.
When you are in the vanguard, you are guaranteed to tumble on occasion.
But I also know of ARF’s deep and undying love for the nation, and their willingness to risk and give their lives for their nation.

One example: During Artsakh’s War of Survival and Liberation, the Dashnak battalion took on the Chechen battalion that had come to Artsakh to assist the Azeri Tatar invaders: the Dashnak battalion decisively defeated the Chechens.

Putting aside any political considerations, on neutral military terms, Chechens are highly – and rightfully – regarded and renowned for their battlefield prowess. The Chechen battalion was commanded by Shamil Basayev, an outstanding field commander, a military genius almost – who later in his career descended into pure terrorism against innocent civilians, even children (e.g. Beslan school massacre).

Basayev later admitted that he and his Chechen battalion had lost a battle only once - against the Armenian Dashnak battalion in Artsakh.

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Robert
March 6, 2011

David,

Welcome. This is the first time, I believe, that we’ve communicated. I’d like to say first how refreshing it is to commnuicate with someone who isn’t insultive, vulgar, grossly misinformed or defaming (as are certain posters here on this site).

Let me first say that it’s no secret that I’m not a big fan of Erdogan nor his AKP party. being a Kemalist, he and his party stand for things that are ruinous to Turkey and pose an open threat to her secularism. Though I don’t necessarily agree with everything that the CHP party does, it’s a much better alternative than the AKP.

You appear to be a wise and seasoned (experienced in the ways of the world) man. You understand that regardless of what you, I or anyone else says, nations will continue to play their politics (you pointed this out well in your post).

Now. in your second paragraph, you state that “Turkey took in some Jews”. With all due respect David, Turkey took in a bit more than just “some Jews”. When NO other nation cared about them and left them to die at the hands of the Nazis, Turkey took many of them in! That’s a fact!! Just as she took in many of the Jews during the Spanish Inquisition and provided them wih a new home, again when no Christian nation cared about them! Please do not try to minimize their efforts and accomplishments, but rather acknowledge their achievements in this regard. To do otherwise does not bode well for you (your intent or even hidden agenda). Turkey is nowhere near being perfect. She has many problems to be sure. But she is trying to solve them (even with the AKP in power). I’m sure that You’re aware of the news of the prisoner swap between Azerbaijan and Armenia. Though small, it is a significant step in the right direction. It give hope for a true and lasting settlement and a harmonious peace between the two nations. I’ve never given up hope on anyone nor with any nation. Yes, there are times when I get upset/frustrated when I post in response to certain uncouth and hateful posters. Consequently, those posts may be more sarcastic than I would normally write. But this doesn’t mean that I’ve ever given up hope with a nation or its people. Despite our differences, many who have come to know me, can at least say that I never use vulgarities or personal insults in my posts. Though we may not always agree, I do my best to be cordial.

JDA,

And yet, they keep publishing you, don’t they!

Avery,

I’ve no doubt that the ARF cares for their nation. And I agree that outside interference should not be allowed…by any nation or group unto that nation and her people. The second point is the interference by the ARF in Armenia right after the signing of the protocols. They put tremendous amounts of pressure on President Sarkissian (with massive street protests). I believe that these ARF agitators (mostly from the US and Europe) didn’t have the insight and forward vision that Sarkissian had. Rather, they acted impulsively and emotionally. This caused an alteration of the tone of the agreements. Sarkissian had to react, albiet in a newer, more forceful tone. This may very well have been interpreted by Turkey as “aggressive”, thus have them ask for new conditions. I truly believe that had the ARF not stuck its nose into Armenia’s internal affairs, placing undue pressure on Sarkissian, the protocols would have long since been ratified, and a new era begun! I welcome your views on this.

Thank you.

Robert T.
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gayane
March 6, 2011

Robert… WHY DO YOU EXIST ON THESE PAGES? you are a joke.. LOL i swear.. i get my doze of laughter from your laughter.. you know that right? they are soo stupid, and absurd that I laugh my head off.. THANK YOU FOR THAT.. we need some comedy in our daily life and your comments provide that to me.. cause naturally they have no validity, no grounds and obviously have no common sense.. LOL wow…

G
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gayane
March 6, 2011

Correction to my last post: i get my doze of laughter from your “posts”

In addition, Robert you don’t have to use vulgar words to insult a person.. You insult everyone here with your comments…vulgar or not… You insult almost 2 million people who died under your barbarious forefathers’ hands by stating such obsurd comments like

Please explain how 518K Turks were killed, and an eventual total of 2.5M Moslem and non-Moslem lives were lost (including non-dashnak Armenians) due to ARF Armenian dashnak rebellious actions?

and many others… so please spare me your i am polite BS…. we know you very well..

Apologies for being direct…

G
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gayane
March 6, 2011

JDA jan.. great to hear from you again.. we have missed you..:)

Avery jan- well said…
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David Davidian
March 6, 2011


Robert,

Thank you for your kind comments. Can I assume you more or less agree with the the rest of my postings – other than the question of Turkey’s unconditional sheltering of Jews during the Holocaust?

Regards

David Davidian
http://www.regionalkinetics.com
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Avery
March 6, 2011

Robert:

You are not interested in my views: you and I both know what your motives are. Please re-read the first paragraph of my previous post.

I am frankly surprised: Turks are usually more subtle and sophisticated. Your methods are just too crude to be an intellectual challenge.

I make a habit of countering your posts of disinformation and propaganda so that 3rd parties reading ArmenianWeekly get the real story, not Turkish distortions.

‘See you’ at the next thread.
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Murat
March 7, 2011

Sticking to basic truth and facts should not be this tortous. I will just pick on a few sentences:

“It wavered enough in the late 1930s until France basically gave the Alexandretta Sanjak to Turkey as a bribe not to enter the impending war on the side of Germany. “

There was never any desire on the part of Turkey, still severely suffering from the total devestation of WWI and Independence War, to take part in any war or conflict. French did not need to bribe Inonu at all, and they never did. In fact, it is considered one of Inonu’s most imprtant accomplishments. He resisted incredible pressure from Churchill and Russians to open up on Germans to relieve them. There was not even a remote possibility of Turks going to war at the time, and there never was such an internal argument as far as I know.

Also if I am not mistaken, Hatay joined Turkey as a result of a plebicit, overseen by independent observers. There was no violence, and not a single shot fired by anyone. No major protests, and no civil war. Syria used to grumble occasionally, but not anymore. Does that look like a bribe? It is the home of I think the only Armenian village outside of Armenia.

Turkey stayed “neutral” but positioned itself to take advantage regardless of who won the war.

Wow, shame on them!

“It simultaneously engaged in forcing a Capital tax on Armenians, Jews and Greeks, took in some Jews escaping Hitler while rejecting others. “

Yes, there were truly some very shameful policies against some minorities in 40s, I do not think anyone would argue this today. Still, Turkey became a refuge for countless people who escaped gas chambers. Brave Turkish ambassador in Paris personally went in and pulled Jews from trains heading to concentration camps.

It claimed neutrality but the Turkish Generals Staff visited Berlin to make an assessment of the war’s outcome. When its eastern border was threatened by Stalin in the late 1940s, Turkey jumped on the NATO bandwagon.”

So generals of a neutral country visit Germany to assess the war, and that means what? Probably you are unaware of the general practice at the time (probably still common) to invite other friendly or neutral military professioanls as observers to battlefields and for briefings.

Jumped on NATO bandwagon? You make it sound like a fad. Molotof’s threats were very real and Turkey did not imagine to be in the middle of the cold war battlefield, it was forced upon us. NATO membership was also greased by the quick response to the UN call for intervention in Korea where the Turkish Brigade had one of the highest casualty rates and left a legacy that folks still talk about today.
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gayane
March 7, 2011

Good question David… lets see how Robert responds… I kind of know how he will respond but lets just wait and see…

Gayane
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rebecca
March 7, 2011

Robert – if 518K Turks were killed – it was , in all probability, in fighting over the loot and stolen property. The rest died of ignorance and bad karma.
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rebecca
March 7, 2011

Gayane - This article appeared yesterday, and may shed more light on WHAT robert is so desperately trying to ‘smother’ with his misguided aggression-

Why is Turkey
Arresting Journalists?

By Pelin Turgut / Istanbul


As the Arab world smolders, the world has pointed to nearby Turkey — secular, democratic, stable, prosperous — as a beacon by which an embattled region might readjust its confused geopolitical compass. So it is no small irony that, booming economy aside, Turkey is looking less like a futuristic role model and increasingly more enamored of the authoritarianism others are so passionately trying to shrug off.

Two of my friends were among seven journalists arrested in an early morning police roundup in Istanbul and Ankara this week. Nedim Sener and Ahmet Sik are well-respected investigative reporters, who have worked for the country’s leading publications and received international acclaim for their work documenting human rights abuses. They were originally charged with “belonging to a terrorist organization and inciting the public to hatred,” according to their lawyers, though the incitement charge was later dropped. Both men deny the allegations against them. Both are still under detention.

They were arrested as part of a long-running investigation into a shadowy network of military and ex-security men who allegedly planned to topple the Islamic-rooted government in the early 2000s. The investigation began in 2007 and was widely hailed at the time as a bold step forward for Turkish democracy, which has long wrestled with the specter of military involvement in politics. It was the first time former generals were called to task for their behavior and set a new standard for the supremacy of civilian rule. Ironically, Sik was part of the journalistic team that first published the diaries of a former navy general which led to the investigation in the first place.

Yet nearly four years on, there have been no convictions and the ongoing investigation appears to have turned into a campaign to silence critical media and the opposition. “In the absence of evidence that the police have credible reason to think Ahmet Sik and Nedim Sener are responsible for wrongdoing, their arrests are a disturbing development,” says Emma Sinclair-Webb, Turkey researcher at Human Rights Watch. “It raises concerns that what is now under investigation is critical reporting rather than coup plots.”

Both Sener and Sik had been critical not just of the government, but also of a key government backer — the powerful Islamic brotherhood led by a reclusive Pennsylvania-based imam called Fethullah Gulen who some critics allege now controls Turkish security forces. Before his arrest this week, Sener was already on trial on charges of, among others, revealing classified information in a book in which he alleged the complicity of security forces in the murder of Turkish Armenian journalist Hrant Dink in 2007; Sik was about to publish his own book on the Gulen network, provisionally titled The Imam’s Army. “Whoever gets near this [issue], burns,” Sik said as he was arrested.

This week’s detentions follow last month’s raid on the offices of Odatv, an internet news website that was critical of the government; four Odatv journalists were arrested. “Journalists are being detained on the one hand while addresses about freedom of the speech are given on the other. We do not understand this,” the U.S. ambassador to Ankara, Francis Ricciardone, said following the raid. He was harshly criticized by the Turkish government, with Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan calling him an “amateurish ambassador.” Erdogan has refused comment on the wave of media arrests, saying it is a legal matter.

There is more than just the arrests. The government’s ‘you’re either with us or against us’ attitude has created a palpable sense of repression in the press, particularly since media and business interests are closely linked. The main government-critical news group Dogan was slapped with 4.8 billion lira ($3.05 billion) in tax fines in 2009 after a row with the government over corruption allegations involving members of Erdogan’s party. “Young reporters are now intimidated to ask certain questions of the Prime Minister and some ministers,” wrote Murat Yetkin, veteran Ankara commentator for the Radikal newspaper. Reporters worry that they might lose their press card or be banned from further meetings. Erdogan has personally sued dozens of cartoonists and journalists for defamation. Under his administration, thousands of websites have been shut down at times, including YouTube, Vimeo and Blogger.

My respects to Mr. Turgut, for having the honor and courage to find a moral compass, and for being an honorable Turk.
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David Davidian
March 7, 2011


Murat,

First, I was not disparaging Turkey for staying “neutral” during WWII. Please look at my comments for its context. I was saying,rather, that Turkey played its cards to a point where whoever won the war, Turkey would benefit. Is this bad? No, not in an absolute sense, but I was describing Turkey’s previous abilities.

Second, regarding Hatay: The history regarding Turkey’s annexation of this region can be viewed as you described, but it is not accurate. It would be like saying there were free elections in the Soviet Union. If you read what was written by the Soviet Union, sure there were free elections, just like there was free health care – but if you wanted real care, you paid a bribe. Sure there was a vote in Hatay, no civil war, etc. but this is not a sufficient enough description of events and intention to be accurate.

The plebiscite was not civilian-driven. The population breakdown alone in 1938 was:

Arab: 105,000 47.5%
Turkish: 85,000 38.3%
Armenian: 25,000 11.3%
Kurdish : 5,000 2.2%
Circassian: 1,500 0.7 %

In Alexandretta (Hatay) the only foreign sponsor involved was Turkey with France playing the broker. Turks were a minority in Hatay. While this topic has little to do with my original post, let me provide the following observation:

“Finally, the French government dropped all facade of legitimacy in the summer of 1938 when it overtly disregarded the results of local elections that produced a 53 per cent majority for the proponents of the Sanjak’s former ‘special administrative regime’. … This was the last time local residents went to the polls without the looming presence of Turkish bayonets. In July, 2500 Turkish troops crossed the border and patrolled the Sanjak in tandem with 2500 French troops. The preliminary results if the earlier election were discarded and and voter registration resumed under the watchful eye of Kemalist election observers. Thousands of Armenians and traditional Sunni Turks fled to Damascus and Beirut, and when the balloting was completed, pro-Kemalists claimed a 63 per cent majority. … On 23 June 1939, France and Turkey agreed on the legal cession of Alexandretta. That same day, the two governments signed a treaty of mutual assistance, placing Turkey in the anti-fascist camp in the brewing European conflict.” See: _Prelude to Conflict: Communal Interdependence in the Sanjak of Alexandretta 1920-1936_, Robert Satloff, Middle East Studies, Vol. 22, no. 2, pages 175-176.

On the first page in this study we read:




“For 15 years, from 1921 to 1936 ‘traditional rivals’ like Turks and Armenians fashioned a thriving and workable relationship within an artificial administrative framework thrust upon them by foreign powers.”

Third, and again having little to do with my original post, both you and Robert made claims regarding Turks or Turkey saving Jews during WWII. You noted,

“Brave Turkish ambassador in Paris personally went in and pulled Jews from trains heading to concentration camps.”

and Robert claimed:


“When NO other nation cared about them and left them to die at the hands of the Nazis, Turkey took many of them in!”



The Israelis have an award known as Righteous among the Nations (sometimes known as Righteous Gentiles). Below is the list of nations and the number awards given to non-Jews who risked their lives during the Holocaust to save Jews from extermination by the Nazis, as of January 1, 2010. I don’t intend in claiming that tiny Armenia has 13 times the awards that Turkey has (normalized for 1940 population ratio it is 180 times), nor do I suggest that other engage in a foolish comparison. When I wrote in my comment, “Turkey took in some Jews”, I was not being flippant.




Poland 6195
Netherlands 5009
France 3158
Ukraine 2272
Belgium 1537
Lithuania 772
Hungary 743
Belarus 608
Slovakia 498
Italy 484
Germany 476
Greece 306
Russia 164
Serbia 131
Latvia 123
Czech Rep 108
Croatia 102
Austria 87
Moldova 79
Albania 69
Romania 60
Norway 45
Switzerland 45
Bos/Herz 40
Denmark 22
Bulgaria 19
UK 14
Armenia 13
Sweden 10
Slovenia 6
Spain 4
Estonia 3
USA 3
Rep China 2
Brazil 2
Chile 1
El Salvador 1
Japan 1
Georgia 1
Luxemb 1
Montenegro 1
Portugal 1
Turkey 1
Vietnam 1



I also suggest you google “Struma” and I suspect you might be surprised.

I don’t know about other Armenians, but in forums such as this, but I cannot afford to make baseless claims. The Kemalists would who participate in this forum should also not make inaccurate claims, as discussions will deteriorate.



Regards



David Davidian
http://www.regionalkinetics.com

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manooshag
March 7, 2011

Hye, jda, Avery, Gayane, Rebecca, and David… I realize now that some “posters” are just inane distractions… unworthy of time/responses. Manooshag
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gayane
March 7, 2011

David EXCELLENT Rebuttal… these individuals are nothing but distractions like Manooshag said… they get off by making the commentators upset with their stupid comments… however, i am glad that we have people like jda, yourself, Karo, Boyajian, Avery, Manooshag, Rebecca, and others to shut these people up with providing detail information, facts and accurate information….

GOD BLESS YOU ALL.. Robert and Murat? I don’t know if you are even going to be saved if you continue with such lies, distorted information and trying to insult the descendents of the Genocide Survivors…. I just pray to God that HE will watch over you.. I was taught as a Christian to Love thy enemies and pray for their well being.. and I will do that no matter how disgusting you and your other comrades come off on these pages..
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Bobby
March 7, 2011

A little-known fact that only Turks and Robert know:

Over 962 Billion Turks were murdered by Armenian 10 year-old girls in 1915, armed only with baseball bats. Armenians were aided in this heinous crime by Martians.

Turkey now has the greatest per capita income on earth. Edogan has an IQ of over 250. Turkey will soon overtake the US as the greatest military power on earth, or any other planet. Brad Pitt is a Turk. So is Al Sharpton and Natalie Portman.

Turks invented rock and roll and electricity.

All Turks know these elementary facts. You Armenians are not smart people. We Turks are the smartest people on earth and the most civilized.
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David Davidian
March 8, 2011

gayane wrote:
“David EXCELLENT Rebuttal”
Actually, this was not meant to be in rebuttal. It was posted to address misconceptions. The original post was on the topic of genocide obfuscation and the impact of the Turkish Minister of State, Egemen Bag(?s, attending an Armenian genocide commemoration. It would be nice to return to that topic, if possible.

David Davidian
http://www.regionalkinetics.com

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Avery
March 8, 2011

yes, gayane, kudos to David for a calm, detailed rebuttal.

re: “…making the commentators upset with their stupid comments..”
On another post I commented why it is beneficial for us to debate the ‘Roberts’, the ‘Murats’, the ‘Ahmets’, etc.

These same types of Turks are out there in the real world: we might as well get used to it and get good at debating them; some day in some public forum they will make the same sorts of infuriating statements. If we can’t calmly rebut them, we’ll lose the PR battle.

Having the truth on our side is not enough: we have to present it well to the neutral audience.

Another very important benefit is that I always learn something new from fellow Armenian posters, who respond to Turks. For example, I did not know about the Israeli Righteous among the Nations Award nor SS Struma. Another time, one of the Armenian posters provided a link to an article in a Turkish online-paper, of all places (possibly Zaman), about Mustafa Kemal and his group conducting ‘tests’ – similar to Nazis – as to who is a ‘pure’ Turk in 1930s. Up to that point I had never heard of that: it was a ‘WOW’ moment.

So, in my opinion, overall, our side benefits from the presence of posters like Murat, and Ahmet.
I am not sure what to make of Robert though: it’s like there are several personalities: some of the posts, though infuriating, are semi-normal; yet many others are from Seinfeld’s Bizzaro World.
And finally, I recommend Armenian posters read about the SS Struma tragedy (as sited in David’s post): a heart-wrenching story that Armenians will identify with, and which sheds an interesting light about Turkish assertions of having saved Jews during WW2.
Key sentence: “Turkey refused to allow the passengers to disembark.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Struma
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gayane
March 8, 2011

Then you did a great job at it David.. Because people like Murat and Robert love to spread wrong information and continue to throw absurd comments at us..

By the way, did Robert ever reply to your question? I believe he did not.. i would not be surprised if you don’t hear from him on your question.. that is how he is…
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Murat
March 8, 2011

Davidian Bey,

Thank you for your civilized response and for not sending me back to the deserts of Central Asia!

Though I must disagree when you say:

“Actually, this was not meant to be in rebuttal. It was posted to address misconceptions”

In reality, I was addressing the misconceptions and misleading innuendos. We set Hatay plebicit straight (your Soviet analogy was not only wrong and inappropriate, but also revealing. A better analogy would have been how UK and France and USA ended up with or retaining various small holdings around the globe), we revealed how Turkey in reality bribed France to remove their resistance to Hatay joining Turkey (though the voters were mostly non-Turkish as you point out), and saved them from the embaressement of going home empty handed. Then we set the record straight about how Turkey managed to stay out of WWII (but still managed to wreck its economy!) playing a dangerous game and cold war realities etc. Yes, you certainly put Robert in his place when he claimed “No one” had helped Jews trying to escape Nazis but Turks.

On the original post:

I really do not think any government official will visit any monument in Armenia that has label “genocide” attached to it. Not sure if the Armenian word actually means the same. I can see private citizens, but not anyone in an official capacity.

You are under the impression that Armenians have a naturally static position that can not phycsially move but Turks will in time adjust their views and attitudes. What makes you think Armenians in general are less immune to nationalistic mythology, or less blinded by their versions of how they want to see their hisotry? As we can all see Turks have been taking their skeletons out of their closets and facing their deamons for a while. Where is the Armenian Akcam? What truths have you faced lately about your nations history?

Armenians have not even started the process. Some of the commentary and statements made here should give you a clue.

My wish is for Turkish governments to stop their embaressing and damaging annual campaign against a resolution in Congress. They should just let it be, do not make a peep and prove that world will not come to an end.

Secondly, I can see a proper monument, maybe near Van (not Bitlis, where my grandfather’s family was butchered by Armenians!) dedicated to the victims of Tehcir. I do not think one should be forced to go to Ex-Soviet Armenia to pay respects and remember the victims and take in the lessons.

Thirdly, I would simply open the borders unilaterally, no negotiations or bargaining. I blame AKP for the stagnation. They tried to bite more than they can chew and Armenians certainly did not help any, but that is their problem. It probably offers a better chance of some progress on Karabag issue anyway.
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David Davidian
March 9, 2011

Murat,

You wrote:

[M] On the original post:
[M]
[M] I really do not think any government official will visit any monument in Armenia
[M] that has label “genocide” attached to it. Not sure if the Armenian word actually
[M] means the same. I can see private citizens, but not anyone in an official
[M] capacity.

Then, can you suggest any reason why Bag(?s, attending a genocide event trail balloon was floated?

[M] You are under the impression that Armenians have a naturally static position that
[M] can not phycsially move but Turks will in time adjust their views and attitudes.

Even if I were under such impression, which I am not, it has little to do with the original post.

[M] What makes you think Armenians in general are less immune to nationalistic
[M] mythology, or less blinded by their versions of how they want to see their
[M] hisotry?

Nothing.

[M] As we can all see Turks have been taking their skeletons out of their closets and
[M] facing their deamons for a while. Where is the Armenian Akcam? What truths have
[M] you faced lately about your nations history?

The topic is not an Anatolian Kumbaya

[M] Armenians have not even started the process. Some of the commentary and
[M] statements made here should give you a clue.

I doubt if Armenia or Turkey would have initiated deliberations without heavy pressure from the US, EU, and Russia.

[M] My wish is for Turkish governments to stop their embaressing and damaging
[M] annual campaign against a resolution in Congress. They should just let it be, do
[M] not make a peep and prove that world will not come to an end.

OK

[M] Secondly, I can see a proper monument, maybe near Van (not Bitlis, where my
[M] grandfather’s family was butchered by Armenians!) dedicated to the victims of
[M] Tehcir.

This has nothing to do with the topic.

[M] I do not think one should be forced to go to Ex-Soviet Armenia to pay
[M] respects and remember the victims and take in the lessons.

Then why was the idea floated in Sabah?

[M] Thirdly, I would simply open the borders unilaterally, no negotiations or
[M] bargaining. I blame AKP for the stagnation. They tried to bite more than they
[M] can chew and Armenians certainly did not help any, but that is their problem. It
[M] probably offers a better chance of some progress on Karabag issue anyway.

Again, this is off-topic but at a minimum: the AKP may not win the 2012 elections, Azerbaijan would never trust Turkey again, Turkey would lose prestige in the Muslim world, and Iran and Turkey would both try to fill the political vacuum created. With all these Turkey loses there is no guarantee Armenia would even care if the border were open.

Davidian Bey
http://www.regionalkinetics.com
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gayane
March 9, 2011

Murat you are hopefuless just like Robert.. actually i am tired of YOUR innuendos as you graciously flipped on us..

you say
As we can all see Turks have been taking their skeletons out of their closets and facing their deamons for a while. Where is the Armenian Akcam? What truths have you faced lately about your nations history?

do you mind telling us what skeletons ARmenia should produce when your forefathers butchered an entire nation to bits and pieces? and what history should Armenia start facing? why don’t you enlighten us ..unless you think Armenians are the ones who murdered your people and are hiding in the closet..that we should come out to face the truth… seriously? do you even think before you speak? you and Robert seem to belong to a political group..do you? both of you speak like true hard core party members otherwise you would not press this issue so hard and soo strong.. i see that both of you are against AKP which drives most of your thoughts and comments but you both have the same mentality… you both do EVERYTHING but to confess that there was a Genocide and Armenians were the murdered nation..and stop giving us BS…such arrogance and ignorance on your part.. it is amazing.. guess you have to be like that to survive all these years being the denialist.. right?

G
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manooshag
March 9, 2011

a turkey keeps using PLOYs, lies and distractions (which is/has been their policy) for ongoing/unending use of their misinformation which they disseminate in order to pursue distractions of the real issue: the issue of recognition of the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation. Thus keeping the real issue in limbo with the efforts of the USA State Department and too, the White House via their insistence to continue to discriminate against Armenian efforts for recognition of Genocide which began in 1890s – still continues now into 2011 – unmercifully/endlessly. In so doing thus does accommodate the perpetrators and their successive leaderships against the justice due and owing to the victims.

Thus the cycle of Genocides continues ongoing/unending as civilized nations bandy about, therefore. misdirect efforts as civilized nations become party to and are guilty of aiding and perpetrating ALL Genocides until today – from the 19th century to the 21st century despite Woodrow Wilson’s efforts.

That Genocides continue – Genocides are ‘allowed’ – that the inhumanity of humans against humans still exists!! Why? Manooshag




23 Comments for “The Second Move in the 2011 Genocide Obfuscation Gambit?”
http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2011/03/04/the-second-move-in-the-2011-genocide-obfuscation-gambit/

1.
kevin
March 6, 2011 - 2:28 am

Davidian a “system architect ” writing about “genocide” ?? I will tell you what you called genocide. Professor Bernard Lewis of Princeton University:
“The point that was being made was that the massacre of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire was the same as what happened to Jews in Nazi Germany and that is a downright falsehood. What happened to the Armenians was the result of a massive Armenian armed rebellion against the Turks, which began even before war broke out, and continued on a larger scale.”

There was an Armenian problem for the Turks created by the advance of the Russians, and also there was a population with an anti-Turkish sentiment in the Ottoman Empire who sought independence, and they overtly sympathized with the Russians advancing from the Caucasus. Also, there were Armenian bands, the Armenians bragged about their heroic exploits in resistance, and the Turks had trouble to maintain order under the prevailing war conditions. For the Turks it was necessary to take the punitive and preventive measure against a hostile population in a region threatened by foreign invasion. For the Armenians it was liberating their land. However, both parties agree that the repression was geographically limited; for example, those measures did not affect the Armenians who lived in the other parts of the Ottoman Empire.http://www.armeniangenocidedebate.com/faq

2.
kevin
March 6, 2011 - 2:32 am

Actually armenians very own first PM wrote about a large scale rebellion , how armenians armed against their government in his confessions.
‘… The war with us was inevitable… We had not done all that was necessary for us to have done to evade war. We ought to have used peaceful language with the Turks…We had no information about the real strength of the Turks and relied on ours. This was the fundamental error. We were not afraid of war because we thought we could win… Our army was well fed and well armed and [clothed] but it did not fight. The troops were constantly retreating and deserting their positions ; they threw away their arms and dispersed in the villages. …In spite of the fact that the Armenians had better material and better support, their armies lost. ….. the advancing Turks fought only against the regular soldiers ; they did not carry the battle to the civilian sector. ….the Turkish soldiers were well-disciplined and that there had not been any massacres…’
Source: The 1923 Bucharest Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, the first PM of the Independent Armenian Republic, published by the Armenian Information Service Suite 7D, 471 Park Ave., New York 22-1955.

3.
David Davidian
March 6, 2011 - 2:24 pm

The International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS) has clearly recognized the Turkish extermination of the Armenians as genocide. see: http://www.genocidescholars.org. One can always find a handful of deniers be it regarding the genocide of Armenians or European Jews.

Interestingly enough, Raphael Lemkin, the lawyer who coined the term genocide, stated, “I became interested in genocide because it happened to the Armenians; and after the Armenians got a very rough deal at the Versailles Conference because their criminals were guilty of genocide and were not punished.” in a 1949 CBS TV interview with Quincy Howe.

Regarding Bernard Lewis, I suggest you consult Lewis for in his 1961 Book, _The Emergence of Modern Turkey_, Oxford University Press, Second Edition, 1961, reprint 1979, page 356, he wrote:

“Now a desperate struggle between them began a struggle between nations for the possession of a single homeland, that ended with the terrible holocaust of 1915 when a million and half Armenians perished.”

This passage was translated verbatim into Turkish in _Modern Turkiyenin Dogusu_, Bernard Lewis, Ingilizceden ceviren, Dr. Metin Kiratli, Turk Tarih Kurumu Yayinlarindan, IV. Seri-Sayi 8, Turk Tarih Kurumu Basimevi, Ankara, 1970, pages 353-354, as:

“Simdi bunlar arasinda muthis bir mucadele — bir bucuk milyon Ermenininin
yokoldugu korkunc 1915 felaketiyle sonuclanan, tek bir anayurdun sahipligi
ugruna iki ulus arasindaki bir mucadele — baslamisti.”

So, “kevin” what are your thoughts on the Turkish government suggesting a major Minister of State, such as Bag(?s,, participate in an Armenian genocide commemoration? Why would Turkey float such a move and why at this time?

-David Davidian

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kevin
March 9, 2011 - 3:29 pm

1) On IAGS:
“I am less than impressed by the unanimous vote of the International Association of Genocide Scholars that the Armenian case ‘was one of the major genocides of the modern era.’ The great majority of these self-proclaimed experts on Ottoman history have never set foot in an archive or done any other original research on the subject in question.”
Guenter Lewy, Commentary, February 2006. https://www.commentarymagazine.com/cm/main/viewArticle.html?id=11140&page=all

2) On Lemkin:
Contrary to this alleged quotation, Lemkin coined the word genocide in a book (Axis Rule in Occupied Europe, Washington, 1944) where the word Armenian is not even used once. On the other handm that is right that Lemkin called “genocide” the fate of Ottoman Armenians, but only after 1948, i.e. after he changed his definition of “genocide”; indeed, Lemkin wanted to include killings motivated by policy, not only racial, national and religious exterminations. So, if Lemkin coined the word, he was not the redactor of UN convention which defines the genocide. Moreover, the posthumous publication of his “Armenian file” revealed an absolute ignorance of the truth. For instance, Lemkin did nothing about the Malta investigation.

3) On Bernard Lewis:
In English, “holocaust” has the sense of “catastrophe” without genocidal implications. It is only “Holocaust” with a “H” which means the genocide against Jews.

4) On Turkish MFA:
Turkish MFA did not say that its representatives would participate to any “genocide” meetings, but would organize counter-meetings on April 24,

4.
kevin
March 7, 2011 - 9:34 pm

Armenian genocide is a long discredited, biased, and political claim. According to 1948 UN Convention, intent must be proven after due process at a competent tribunal for a genocide verdict to stand. No such tribunal (a la Nuremberg) was convened and no genocide verdict exists. Insisting on a non-existing label, purely based on a racist and dishonest version of history, boils down to lynching. When the six T’s of the Turkish-Armenian conflict are all truthfully considered, it will be obvious that it was a inter-communal warfare fought by Christian and Muslim irregulars. Truth should not be a fodder to newspaper ratings, political support, or other such benefits.

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Jeremy R. Hammond
March 8, 2011 - 2:10 am

So, logically, then, if “genocide” had not been added to the charge sheet at Nuremberg, then that would mean the Holocaust never happened?

DOH!

Surely you see your fallacy, Kevin.

o
kevin
March 8, 2011 - 5:31 pm

How can factual Holocaust be the same as armenian genocide? Did Jews establish Jewish armies behind German lines, kill noncombatant German citizens in order o establish a Jewish state on German soil during WWII? Were Jews involved in terrorism, raids, rebellions, treason, territorial demands from Germany, or kill half a million Germans during WWII? Ottoman-Armenians committed all those heinous war crimes and more during WWI. Wouldn’t equating the two be untrue and unethical? And an insult to the silent memory of the Jewish victims of Holocaust?

+
Jeremy R. Hammond
March 9, 2011 - 12:20 am

Kevin, whoever said the two crimes were “the same”? Not I. I was merely observing your logical fallacy. By your logic, if “genocide” had not been added to the charge sheet at Nuremberg, then it would mean the Holocaust never happened.

Surely you can see your error.

o
kevin
March 8, 2011 - 5:33 pm

“…We have first hand information and evidence of Armenian atrocities against our people (Jews). Members of our family witnessed the murder of 148 members of our family near Erzurum, Turkey, by Armenian neighbors, bent on destroying anything and anybody remotely Jewish and/or Muslim… Armenians were in league with Hitler in the last war, on his premise to grant themselves government if, in return, the Armenians would help exterminate Jews. Armenians were also hearty proponents of the anti-Semitic acts in league with the Russian Communists…”

Source: Elihu Ben Levi, Vacaville, California. San Francisco Chronicle, December 11, 1983 ***

Armenians reject the quotes from Joseph Stalin where stated as: “The agents of the Allied Powers are exaggerating Turkey’s campaign in Transcaucasia, take it easy.” In the rest of the documents, he points out the large scale Armenian revolt against Ottoman military camping before the relocation. In past couple years, historians and their studies in Russia brought significant evidence from Bolshevik archives.
http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2008/03/2389-logical-fallacies-of-armenian.html

5.
kevin
March 7, 2011 - 9:35 pm

The Armenian staff writer presents the Turkish-Armenian conflict during WWI, naturally, from the Armenian point of view. Armenian claims of genocide cannot be substantiated with historical evidence, as more than 69 historians pointed out in a public statement decades ago (See New York Times and Washington Post dated May 19, 1985.) They said it was an inter-communal warfare fought by Christian and Muslim, mostly Armenians and Turkish, irregulars.

GENOCIDE ALLEGATIONS IGNORE “THE SIX T’S OF THE TURKISH-ARMENIAN CONFLICT” : The seemingly endless “War years” of 1912-1922 brought to the Ottoman Empire three wars (Balkan, WWI, and Turkish Independence) and wide-spread death and destruction on to all Ottoman citizens. No Turkish family was left touched.

ALLEGATIONS OF ARMENIAN GENOCIDE ARE RACIST AND DISHONEST HISTORY: They are racist because they ignore the Turkish dead: about 3 million during WWI; more than half a million of them at the hands of Armenian nationalists. And the allegations of Armenian genocide are dishonest because they simply dismiss the six T’s of the Turkish-Armenian conflict:

1) TUMULT (as in numerous Armenian armed uprisings between 1882 and 1921)

2) TERRORISM (by well-armed Armenian nationalists and militias victimizing Ottoman-Muslims between 1882-1921 and then again 1965 to present)

3) TREASON (Armenians joining the invading enemy armies as early as 1914 and lasting until 1921)

4) TERRITORIAL DEMANDS (where Armenians were a minority, not a majority, attempting to establish Greater Armenia, the would-be first apartheid of the 20th Century with a Christian minority ruling over a Muslim majority )

5) TURKISH SUFFERING AND LOSSES (i.e. those caused by the Armenian nationalists: 524,000 Muslims, mostly Turks, met their tragic end at the hands of Armenian revolutionaries during WWI, per Turkish Historical Society. This figure is not to be confused with about 2.5 million Muslim dead who lost their lives due to non-Armenian causes during WWI. Grand total: more than 3 million, per Prof. Justin McCarthy.)

6) TERESET (temporary resettlement order dated May 27, 1915) triggered by the first five T’s above and amply documented as such; not to be equated to the Armenian misrepresentations as genocide.)

6.
kevin
March 7, 2011 - 9:38 pm

Here is how John Dewey, Professor at Columbia University who visited the war theaters in mid 1920s put it in The New Republic, 12 November 1928:

“…Few Americans who mourn, and justly, the miseries of the Armenians, are aware that till the rise of nationalistic ambitions, beginning with the ‘eighteenseventies, the Armenians were the favored portion of the population of Turkey, or that in the Great War, they traitorously turned Turkish cities over to the Russian invader; that they boasted of having raised an Army of one hundred and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at least a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population…”

And here is how Lamsa, George M., a missionary well known for his research on Christianity, put it in his book, The Secret of the Near East, The Ideal Press, Philadelphia 1923, p 133:

“…In some towns containing ten Armenian houses and thirty Turkish houses, it was reported that 40,000 people were killed, about 10,000 women were taken to the harem, and thousands of children left destitute; and the city university destroyed, and the bishop killed. It is a well- known fact that even in the last war the native Christians, despite the Turkish cautions, armed themselves and fought on the side of the Allies. In these conflicts, they were not idle, but they were well supplied with artillery, machine guns and inflicted heavy losses on their enemies….”

Dr. Gwynne Dyer, a London-based independent journalist, wrote this in 1976 about the propaganda efforts of the Armenian community and lobby:

“… The deafening drumbeat of the propaganda, and the sheer lack of sophistication in argument which comes from preaching decade after decade to a convinced and emotionally committed audience, are the major handicaps of Armenian historiography of the Diaspora today…”

U.S. Federal judges ruled on August 20, 21009, that the U.S. does not recognize genocide and that no one can sue on genocide claims. If it is not historically or legally true, then what is it?

7.
kevin
March 7, 2011 - 9:42 pm

…(Here is) the Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, the first PM of the Independent Armenian Republic, published by the Armenian Information Service Suite 7D, 471 Park Ave., New York 22 – 1955 :

“… The war with us was inevitable… We had not done all that was necessary for us to have done to evade war. We ought to have used peaceful language with the Turks…We had no information about the real strength of the Turks and relied on ours. This was the fundamental error. We were not afraid of war because we thought we could win… Our army was well fed and well armed and [clothed] but it did not fight. The troops were constantly retreating and deserting their positions ; they threw away their arms and dispersed in the villages. …In spite of the fact that the Armenians had better material and better support, their armies lost. ….. the advancing Turks fought only against the regular soldiers ; they did not carry the battle to the civilian sector. ….the Turkish soldiers were well-disciplined and that there had not been any massacres…”

8.
kevin
March 7, 2011 - 11:01 pm

Since you are talking abut the extermination of european jews you should take a look at some of the docs yourself:

“…During WWI, the Russians invaded the Caucasus, and with the help of local Armenians, they have chased Turks and Jews, killed whoever they could catch, and then pillaged and plundered Turkish and Jewish villages. He was about 10 years old and my father-in-law was only 3 and he said there is no way he could forget that exodus, that fleeing. Turks and Jews brought with them to Anatolia whatever they could pack with them. Jewish families first went to Van (a city by the lake Van in Eastern Anatolia). While some Jewish families settled there, others continued their travel to settle in Adana and other places, and still others went as far as Palestine. What I am trying to my Armenian friends is this: everything has a prior history. If the Armenian attack and kill Turks, Turks, in their quest to avenge those Armenian atrocities, may have caused massacres in their counter attacks and chases. Aren’t these ‘eye for an eye’ feuds conventional and normal under the conditions of those days? In contrast, what the Germans did to 6 million Jews cannot be explained by such feuds, chases, or civil wars; there was absolutely no reason for the Holocaust. I never quite understood how the Armenians want to be included in the same category as the Jews of Holocaust.Momo Asafrana, December 09, 2004

9.
kevin
March 7, 2011 - 11:07 pm

“…To validate a spurious genocide allegations, the Armenians curry favor with the Jewish people, and manipulate the Holocaust tragedy to gain some undeserved recognition from this uniquely Jewish experience. Historical evidences point to a devious Armenian collusion with Hitler to exterminate the Jews during WW II. Today, no matter how much the Armenians try to conceal this heinous episode from the public knowledge the Armenian conspiracy with Hitler is in the history books — indelibly. Soon it will be in the public conscience too… In early 1930s, when Hitler ascended to power, he began cultivating the Armenians to use their long-standing and strong anti-semitic feelings in his plans and policy. The Armenians, through their publications, radio broadcasts and meetings supported and cheered the Nazis on their attacks on Jews. Alfred Rosenberg, who was to become later Hitler’s Minister of the Occupied Territories, declared that the Armenians were Indo-European, or Aryans, which honored them and put them in the same league with the Nazis. In Hitler’s foreign policy the Armenians fitted very nicely too. Hitler’s future invasion plans of Russia provided a golden opportunity for the Armenians to liberate what they considered to be “Historic Armenia” from the Soviet as well as the Turkish rule…”

Source: A.Ozer , THE ARMENIAN-NAZI COLLABORATION IN WW II

10.
zubeyde
March 8, 2011 - 4:55 am

Many Reputable Scholars Challenge The Conventional, One-Sided Anti-Turkish Narrative And / Or Refrain From Alleging The Crime Of Genocide
http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2009/06/2889-ottoman-armenian-tragedy-is.html

These Are Their Words

1) Background – War And Imperial Collapse

The collapse of the Ottoman Empire dramatically rearranged the map of a vast region. What was once a sprawling, multi-ethnic empire splintered into more than two-dozen new nations, from the Balkans to the Caucasus to the Arabian peninsula. Across the surface of these lands unfolded a profound human tragedy. Nearly incessant war crippled the Ottoman economy. It left towns devoid of men to care for households or to tend crops. Military requisitions drained the countryside of livestock and many of the labor-saving implements of daily life. Disease ran rampant and famine struck many.

2) Vast Population Movements

As new states coalesced, large population masses streamed across the landscape, some fleeing the path of war, some seeking new lives among ethnic brethren or co-religionists, some having suffered expulsion, and some obeying negotiated population exchanges. Two such major movements were (a) the flight of Muslim refugees from newly-established Christian states in Balkans and the Caucasus into what would become modern Turkey during the period roughly between 1821 and 1922, and (b) the relocation of much of the Ottoman Armenian population from the war zone of eastern Anatolia into Ottoman domains in Syria, mainly in 1915-16.

3) A Genuine Historic Controversy

History records the enormous human suffering from both of these events: Perhaps 5.5 million Muslims, mostly Turks, died as refugees or were killed in the years immediately preceding and during World War I, as well as through the formative years of the Republic of Turkey. And certainly hundreds of thousands of Armenians died during the Armenian Revolt and the relocations consequently ordered by the Ottoman government. Scholars on the Ottoman Empire continue to examine the details and causes of these twin tragedies. What they have uncovered is not a singular tale of Christian woe, but rather a complex story that, if presented as evidence, would make it highly unlikely that a genocide charge could be sustained against the Ottoman government or its successor before a neutral arbiter.

Thus, whether the tragic suffering of the Ottoman Armenians meets the definition of the crime of genocide as provided by the . . .See Appendix 1 . . . United Nations Genocide Convention . . . Appendix 1 remains a genuine historic controversy. Moreover, the notion that the one-sided Armenian narrative is settled history must be utterly rejected so that researchers will feel free to delve into the details of these contested events.

11.
zubeyde
March 8, 2011 - 4:56 am

4) Questions Considered

Among the work of the scholars below, many of whom are Ottoman history experts, are considerations of the following questions:

* Is the genocide label, which is so vigorously promoted by Armenian advocacy organizations appropriate?

* Did the Ottoman government during World War I possess the requisite intent described by the U.N. Genocide Convention, to destroy the Armenians?

* What was the Armenian * Revolt . . . See Appendix 2 . . . Armenian Revolt . . . Appendix 2 and how did it impact the Ottoman government’s decision to relocate Armenian civilians from eastern Anatolia?

* What was the ultimate toll upon the Armenian population? And how many deaths could be attributed to the various causes: intercommunal warfare, starvation, exposure, massacre, disease, etc.?

* What was the ultimate toll upon the Ottoman Muslim population embroiled in these same events? And how many deaths can be attributed to the same causes?

Their work establishes a better basis upon which to address historic grievances than the one-sided narrative most often provided in media accounts and by Armenian lobbyists and their advocates. In effect, these scholars provide the oft-ignored historical context, which is critical to any explanation of the shared past of the Turkish and Armenian peoples.

At a minimum, the list below demonstrates that in fact, there exists no common agreement that the genocide label is appropriate and that, contrary to assertions made by Armenian lobby groups, the details of the historic narrative remain open to further study and interpretation.

12.
zubeyde
March 8, 2011 - 4:57 am

5) The Impact Of Physical And Academic Intimidation

Sadly, this list likely under-represents the number of scholars who would challenge the conventional wisdom on the Armenian tragedy. Those who write from a contra-genocide perspective have had to do so under extraordinary risk. Merely because of something he wrote, the home Prof. Stanford Shaw of U.C.L.A. was firebombed. Death threats have been received by Justin McCarthy and his family. The university press that published Guenter Lewy’s latest work was harassed by two Armenian scholars. (See, . . . Appendix 3: Ethnic Cleansing or Genocide . . . ? Appendix 3, by Masaki Kakiszaki, Critique: Critical Middle Eastern Studies, Vol. 16, No. 1, 85–92, Spring 2007.) The University of Southern California in 2006 buckled to the vociferous protest of an Armenian pressure group and canceled a symposium by two former Turkish diplomats. Meanwhile, foreign nations such as France and Switzerland have rendered it against the law even to hold the contra-genocide viewpoint. Princeton University’s Bernard Lewis was famously fined by a French court in 1995 for such an “offense.” And, the Armenian terrorist organizations ASALA and JCAG carried out no fewer than 73 acts of terrorism in North America alone, killing 16 people. Around the world, Armenian terrorists killed at least 50 more people, mostly Turkish diplomat murdered in planned assassinations and injured over 500, all in the name of “genocide recognition.” In short, the chilling effect this has had on free discussion and open debate on the history of the late Ottoman Empire has been genuine and severe, lowering a curtain of fear over the consideration of this important era of world history.

6) Additions And Subtractions

Our aim is to evaluate as closely as possible each name on the list based on the published statements or writings of each scholar that are readily available. We welcome visitor suggestions for additions to the list. And likewise, if you believe that a particular name ought not be on the list, please let us know. Our goal is to continue to openly discuss and debate the details of history and the genocide allegation. For feedback, please contact info at tc-america.org

Whether the tragic suffering of the Ottoman Armenians meets the definition of the crime of genocide as provided by the United Nations Genocide Convention [web] remains a genuine historic controversy. The notion that the one-sided Armenian narrative is settled history does not reflect the truth and must be utterly rejected.

The work of the following scholars demonstrates that there exists no common agreement that the genocide label is appropriate and that, contrary to assertions made by Armenian lobby groups, the historic narrative of this painful period in Ottoman-Armenian relations remains open to further study and interpretation. Furthermore, the work by the leading historians on the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East provides the oft-ignored historical context without which any explanation of the shared past of the Turkish and Armenian peoples is simply impossible.

Our aim is to evaluate as closely as possible each name on the list based on the published statements or writings of each scholar that are readily available. Our goal is to continue to openly discuss and debate the details of history and the genocide allegation. For feedback, please contact info at tc-america.org
________________________________________

SCHOLARS

* Arend Jan Boekestijn
* Mary Schaeffer Conroy
* Youssef Courbage
* Paul Dumont
* Bertil Duner
* Gwynne Dyer
* Edward J. Erickson
* Philippe Fargues
* Michael M. Gunter
* Paul Henze
* Eberhard Jäckel
* Firuz Kazemzadeh
* Yitzchak Kerem
* William L. Langer
* Bernard Lewis
* Guenter Lewy
* Heath W. Lowry
* Andrew Mango
* Robert Mantran
* Michael E. Meeker
* Justin McCarthy
* Hikmet Ozdemir
* Stephen Pope
* Michael Radu
* Jeremy Salt
* Stanford Shaw
* Norman Stone
* Hew Strachan
* Elizabeth-Anne Wheal
* Brian G. Williams
* Gilles Veinstein
* Malcolm Yapp
* Thierry Zarcone
* Robert F. Zeidner
* 69 US Academicians To House of Representatives, Petition 1985
*Appel De Blois (English)

13.
fehmi
March 8, 2011 - 6:54 am

1
Armenian thesis of genocide is denied by their ancestors themselves!

The ancestors of the Armenians who made their history are the real deniers. As you know, whoever disagree with the Armenian genocide claims are labelled as ‘deniers’, as ‘agents of Turkish government’, or ‘people hired by the Turkish government’ or ‘disingenous scholars/authorities’ Turkish nationalists’, ‘Turkish racists’. And, here are the names of Armenians who comply with the these terms:

“Garo Pasdermichan (Pastirmaciyan), the Ottoman deputy of Erzurum and commander of all the Armenian officials and soldiers of the Ottoman Third Army which joined the Russian Army in 1914, was the main denier and Turkish racist. Because, he wrote in his book ‘Why Armenia Should Be Free’ (Boston, Dec.1918, Hairenik Publishing Company p. 16-17) that annual Congress of Armenian Party Dashnagzoutiun was held in Erzurum in August 1914, before the war broke, and Turkish emissaries offered Dashnaks an autonomous Armenia (made up of Russian Armenia and the three Turkish vilayets of Erzurum, Van and Bitlis) under the suzerainty of the Ottoman Empire’, if they joined the Turkish side and stopped supporting the Russians. He also stated that the executive committee of the Dashnagzoutiun rejected the proposal!

The Armenian members of this parley were the well-known publicist E.Aknouni, the representative from Van, A.Vramian, and the director of the Armenian schools in the district of Erzurum, Mr Rostom.

Another main denier was Boghos Noubar Pasha, the Armenian National Delegation President in The Paris Peace Conference 1919 who also stated that the Turks offered them autonomy in August 1914, much before the deportation, but they rejected this proposal and placed themselves without hesitation on the side of the Entente Powers from whom they expected liberation [Papers relating to the foreign relations of the United States The Paris Peace Conference 1919 (United States Government Printing Office, 1948, Vol IV, p 139-157)].

Armenian Boghos Noubar Pasha, who told that ‘150 000 Armenian volunteers in Russian Army were the only forces against Turks’ (Times of London , 1919 Jan 30 Link: http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/10/2013-150-000-armenian-volunteers-in.html) was obviously a denier and agent of Turkish government.

Hovannes Katchaznouni, the first prime-minister of the Armenian state founded in 1918 and the prime authority of the Dashnagzoutiun Party who wrote a book ‘Dashnagzoutiun Has Nothing to do Anymore’ was also another chief denier. Because, in his book which is banned in Armenia at present, he stated that

*it was a mistake to establish the volunteer units.
*They were unconditionally allied with Russia,
*They massacred the Moslem population,
*The Armenian terrorist acts were directed, at winning the Western public opinion.
*British occupation aroused hopes of the Dashnaks,
*They were provoked by imperial Sea to Sea land demand,
*They had not taken into consideration Turkey’s power,
* They should have used a peaceful language towards the Turks but they (Armenian Dashnaks) rejected the Turks who suggested to negotiate with them and they went on making war
(KS Papazian the writer of ‘Patriotism Perverted’ published in 1934, in Boston, also confirms this Turkish suggestion. Note that ‘Patrionism Perverted’ is banned in Armenia).
*The decision of the deportation of Armenians was a rightful measure taken by Turks.
*Turkey had acted with an instinct of self-defence.
*Their government was a Dashnak dictatorship.
*The fault was within the Dashnak Party. They should commit suicide. They had nothing to do.

14.
fehmi
March 8, 2011 - 6:55 am

2
Vratsyan, the last prime minister of Dashnaks who wrote in an article published in December 3 1920 issue of Araç, that they transformed Armenia to an arenna of endless wars with its neighbours for the Entente Powers (RGASPI. fond 80, list 4, file 83, sheet 136) was another chief denier and agent of Turkish government.

Armenian Messrs. Ahonian and Hadissian who were the spokesmen of the Armenian delegation of the New Armenian Republic and visited Sultan Mehmet VI, Vahdeddin in Istanbul on September 6, 1918 were also Turkish nationalists. See the telegram sent by Mr Ahorian to the Armenian Prime Minister Kachaznuni:

‘On September 6th, when we were in Selamlik we had an audience. We presented our congratulations on his accession to the throne. We submitted our best wishes for the development of the Empire and its well-being. We stated that the Armenian nation would never forget that it was the Ottoman Government which first conceived the idea of founding an independent Armenia, and recognized it, that the Armenian Government would do everything possible to protect friendly relations between the two countries and to strengthen them. His Majesty thanked us.

He stated that he was very happy at seeing the envoys of independenbt and free Armenia, that he wished not only her development , but that she be strong in order to retain her independence. His Majesty is entirely convinced that friendly relations will always exist between the two neighboring countries, Turkey and Armenia, in order that both of them may develop. He concluded his remarks by stating that he was very hapy to see that Armenia had the strength to found an independent state which was able to send envoys to Istanbul, and repeated his best wishes for our country’. (Erich Feigl, A Myth of Terror, Edition Zeitgeschichte Freilassing, Salzburg, Austria p.97)

The Armenian Soviet historian A.A.Lalayan who stated that the Dashnaks displayed extreme courage to massacre Turkish women, children and ill and old people (Contrarevolyutsionn?y ‘Das,naktsutyun’ I. I.mperialisti-çeskaya Voyna 1914-1918 gg.’, Revolyutsionn?y Vostok, No.2-3, p.92, 1936) and who also quoted the following report of a Dashnag officer, Aslem Varaam written in 1920, in Beyazit-Varan was an Armenian denier and he was also hired by the Turkish government . The report of Aslem Varaam was:

“I exterminated the Turkish population in Bashar-Gechar without making any exceptions. One some times feels the bullets shouldn’t be wasted. So, the most effective way against these dogs is to collect the people who have survived the clashes and dump them in deep holes and crush them under heavy rocks pressed from above, not to let them inhabit this world any longer. So I did accordingly. I collected all the women, men and children and extinguished their lives in the deep holes I dumped them into, crushing them with rocks.”

A.Lalayan, Revolutsionniy Vostok (Revolutionary East) No: 2-3, p.92 vd, Moscow, 1936; Istoricheskie Zapisky No 2, p.101, 1928

15.
fehmi
March 8, 2011 - 6:55 am

3
Armenian T. Haçikog(lyan who told that the Dashnaks eradicated thousands of Turks with their bloody hands (T. Haçikoglyan, 10 Let Armyanskoy Sttrelkovoy Divizii,p4-6. I.zdatelstvo Polit. Uprav. KKA, Tiflis, 1930) was also a denier and agent of Turkish government.

The Armenian poet Mikael Nalbandyan who wrote these lines in his poem ‘The March of People of Zeytun, was another denier and Turkish nationalist:

‘..S,ad ?sdrugner yeg(an azad/Miyayin menk mnank h?lu h?badag/Zeytuntsiner mer zposank/E baderazm yev ars,avank/ Sur, tur, k?ntag yev h?ratsan/ Mer khag(alik?n en havidyan….’

(A lot of slaves were set free/ Only we were left who were obedient/Amusements of us, people of Zeytun are/ War and raid/ Our inexhaustible toys are/ Sword, saber, bullet and gun…….) (Nor Knar, p99).

Zeytun was one of the places where the Armenians rebelled and massacred the Turks and Muslims.

KS Papazian the writer of ‘Patriotism Perverted’ published in 1934, in Boston was also a denier. Because:

Papazian critized A. Khatisian and the then prime minister S.Vratzian for not publishing the text of Treaty of Gümrü which they signed on December 2, 1920 to put an end to the war between Turkey and the Armenian Republic on December 2, 1920, which coincided with the entrance of Bolsheviks in Armenia.

Papazian also stated that the Armenian prime minister Simon Vratzian applied to the Turkish government on March 18, 1921 and asked military help of the Turks against the Bolsheviks!

Even Gourgen M?g?rd?ç Yan?kyan (age 78), the Armenian murderer of Los Angeles prime consul of Turkey Mehmet Baydar (age 49) and the co consul Bahad?r Demir (age 30) in Santa Barbara, in 1973, was a real denier, Turkish nationalist and agent of Turkish government. Because he admitted in his trial on June 13, 1973, via his attorney Lindsay that he (Yan?kyan) had been a member of an army made up of 10 000 volunteers to fight against the Turks in Armenia, in the beginning of March 1915 and in chief of this army had been an Armenian general called Andranik. This had been prepared as four parties and had started to battle with the Turks in Ig(d?r, under the leadership of Russian general Dron and had proceeded to Van,
they had occupied Van and meanwhile had destroyed and had fired Turkish villages (D?s,is,leri Bakanl?g(? santa barbara suikasti. telephone from washington embassy to the turkish foreign ministry, 15.6.1973, no:220 and june 21, 1973. no:225)

16.
fehmi
march 8, 2011 - 6:57 am

of course, even these few examples give great harm to the present armenian thesis and lead people to question the armenian’s innocence, their predominance in ottoman population, and most importantly their genocide thesis. of course, the fact that turks offered the dashnaks an autonomous armenia (made up of russian armenia and the three turkish vilayets of erzurum, van and bitlis) under the suzerainty of the ottoman empire’, if they joined the turkish side and stopped supporting the russians, the other fact that the executive committee of the dashnagzoutiun rejected the proposal in august 1914 before the war broke and that they rejected all other turkish calls of negotiations repeated during wwi too, are the major points that are not wanted by the armenians to be known

(garo past?rmac?an, why armenia should be free?, boston, dec.1918, hairenik publishing company p. 16-17 and papers relating to the foreign relations of the united states the paris peace conference 1919 , united states government printing office, 1948, vol iv, p 139-157).

of course they fear a question of why the turks did offer autonomy to armenians if they decided to eradicate them.

and they fear the question of why and how the armenian prime minister simon vratzian applied the turkish government on march 18, 1921 and asked military help of the turks against the bolsheviks, in spite of the fact that the turks committed a (so-called) genocide and murdered 1.5 million armenians!

and they also are very frightened of the question how the ottoman government eradicated 1,5 million of armenians but in spite of this it was the ottomans who first conceived the idea of founding an independent armenia, and recognized it first.

moreover, it was the ottoman sultan who first wished not only the development of armenian republic, but that she be strong in order to retain her independence! astonishingly, it was the ottoman sultan, who stated that friendly relations would always exist between the two neighboring countries

that is, the armenian ancestors who created their history (the top representatitives of the ottoman armenians, dashnags and prime ministers of armenia), the armenian historians and poets who wittnessed this period and even the armenian murderers of turkish diplomats are the main deniers!

so, it is not surprising that both the book of hovannes katchaznouni, the first prime-minister of the armenian state, ‘dashnagzoutiun has nothing to do anymore’ and the book of k.s.papazian ‘patrionism perverted’ are banned in armenia. it is also a fact that all the copies of the book of hovannes katchaznouni, in all languages were collected from the libraries in europe by dashnags. the book is included in the catalogues but no copies can be found in the racks.

it is not surprising either that, the armenians even claim that nobody called a.a. lalayan, the soviet-armenian historian, ever lived!

yes, they can ban the books of the makers of their history, they can buy politicians by their votes and urge them to accept historical resolutions and memorial laws in their parliaments, they can threaten the historians who do not support their thesis, they can sue them, they can even bomb their houses as they did before (http://209.232.239.37/gtd1/viewincident.aspx?id="56624)" but they can never ban scholar thought and silence the historians of the world!

note that pierre nora, president of the association ‘liberty for history’ founded in 2005, has recently stated that the history should not be a slave to currency or written under the dictation of competing memoirs; in a free state, it does not belong to any political authority to define the historical truth and restrict freedom of the historian under threat of criminal sanctions. in a democracy, freedom for history is the freedom of all (http://www.lph-asso.fr//articles/46.html, . http://www.lph-asso.fr//tribunes/49.html)

now do you understand why the armenians vehemently resist the establishment of historical joint commissions made up of historians from armenia, turkey and other countries?

do you understand why prof richard hovannisian from california university (the father of the first foreign minister of armenia) said: ‘it is very dangerous to establish such an historical commission…’ in an interview with armenian reporter? http://www.kophaber.com/news_detail.php?id="4726"

do you understand why the armenians have not admitted to international court of justice for more than 90 years and why they urge politicians to write their history as they want?

17.
fehmi
march 8, 2011 - 6:58 am

5
of course, even these few examples give great harm to the present armenian thesis and lead people to question the armenian’s innocence, their predominance in ottoman population, and most importantly their genocide thesis. of course, the fact that turks offered the dashnaks an autonomous armenia (made up of russian armenia and the three turkish vilayets of erzurum, van and bitlis) under the suzerainty of the ottoman empire’, if they joined the turkish side and stopped supporting the russians, the other fact that the executive committee of the dashnagzoutiun rejected the proposal in august 1914 before the war broke and that they rejected all other turkish calls of negotiations repeated during wwi too, are the major points that are not wanted by the armenians to be known

(garo past?rmac?an, why armenia should be free?, boston, dec.1918, hairenik publishing company p. 16-17 and papers relating to the foreign relations of the united states the paris peace conference 1919 , united states government printing office, 1948, vol iv, p 139-157).of course they fear a question of why the turks did offer autonomy to armenians if they decided to eradicate them.

and they fear the question of why and how the armenian prime minister simon vratzian applied the turkish government on march 18, 1921 and asked military help of the turks against the bolsheviks, in spite of the fact that the turks committed a (so-called) genocide and murdered 1.5 million armenians!

and they also are very frightened of the question how the ottoman government eradicated 1,5 million of armenians but in spite of this it was the ottomans who first conceived the idea of founding an independent armenia, and recognized it first.

moreover, it was the ottoman sultan who first wished not only the development of armenian republic, but that she be strong in order to retain her independence! astonishingly, it was the ottoman sultan, who stated that friendly relations would always exist between the two neighboring countries

18.
david davidian
march 9, 2011 - 10:48 pm

in spite of the knee-jerk flurry of typical turkish genocide denial, the question remains: why has the turkish government allowed a major turkish newspaper, sabah, to keep active and unrecanted a report stating that the turkish minister of state, bag(?s,, has been asked to attend an armenian genocide commemoration? this is especially important, considering that officially turkey claims the genocide of the armenians never occurred.

if this is not a trial balloon floated for the purposes of genocide obfuscation, why hasn’t the turkish foreign ministry issued or ordered a retraction?

-david davidian
.

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