by Gustavo Arellano in Election 2008, November 4, 2008
Moved up, because the conversation is fun. Non-Armenians and non-Turks encouraged to comment!
The Los Angeles Times had a fascinating story yesterday about how Turkish businessmen held a fundraiser last month in Orange County for the opponent of Glendale-area Congressman Adam Schiff. They don't like Schiff because he dared tried to pass a House resolution that would acknowledge the Armenian genocide, a historical fact that only Turkish nationalists and their apologists deny. Leading the charge is Coto de Caza resident Ergun Kirlikovali, who hosted the buffet fundraiser that notched about $15,000, "opposes the resolution and has written for websites that deny the genocide," wrote reporter Molly Hennessy-Fiske. . .
As usual, the dailies put it too lightly. Kirlikovali is one vile man--"Just because we [Turks] sit quietly and grieve [about their losses in World War I] instead of making noise about it does not mean we haven't suffered," he told the Pasadena Star-News. But we'll save the totality of his writings for another day--the purpose of this post is to show his disingenuous reasons for supporting Schiff's opponent, Charles Hahn.
Kirlikovali left a comment on the Times blog trying to argue that one of the reasons he supports Hahn is because the Republican opposed the recent Wall Street bailout. Problem is, Florida Republican congresswoman Ileana Ros-Lehtinen voted for the bailout. So why did Kirlikovali donate $500 to her last year? Could it be because she voted against Schiff's Armenian genocide resolution? Illinois Republican Congressman Peter Roskam opposed the bailout--so why did Kirlikovali fork over $250 to the campaign of Roskam's Democratic opponent, Jill Morgenthaler? Could it be because Roskam--a Know Nothing in every other sense--is a cosponsor of the Armenian genocide resolution and member of the Armenian Congressional Caucus?
Kirlikovali drew another Armenian genocide-denier to donate cash to Hahn: Irvine resident Erdal Atrek.
Atrek is a former chair of the Turkish-American Alliance for Fairness, an organization so fair that they have a page called the "Armenian File," which offers links to documents to refute "their [Armenian] so-called 'genocide' story." In an online petition last year against a proposal to teach Toronto 11th graders about the Armenian genocide, Atrek wrote "Whatever is going to be taught in this regard is going to be one-sided, and according to the wishes of the Armenian Diaspora, with total disregard for historical accuracy, truth, and huge amounts of evidence to the contrary." A Kenan Alpan of Huntington Beach signed the same petition and gave cash to Hahn.
Atrek and Kirlikovali once teamed up for a contribution to Tall Armenian Tale, a notorious Armenian genocide-denying website noted by the Southern Poverty Law Center in their brilliant summer exposé of the Turkish government's multi-million-dollar battle to fight the Armenian genocide in the United States. This quote from the Tall Armenian Tale article is all you need to know about Kirlikovali:
I am a product, like many Turks, of an ignored and untold genocide; that of the Turks. Yet, in all these years, I have not read a single word about my suffering in any of the AFATH ("Armenian Falsifiers and Turk Haters") accounts... All I see is an unfortunate and relentless barrage of typical Crusader bias, constantly parroting the Armenian side of the tragedy, and drilling into the hearts and minds of unsuspecting readers the notion of “poor, starving Armenians” and “barbarous Turk” clichés, with zero respect for fairness, balance, or truth. And then they wonder: “Why is this issue not resolved in 90 years?” You tell me!
"Crusader bias"? A genocide against the Turks? Excuse us while we laugh. More--much more--about Kirlikovali after the election. In the meanwhile, refry this: Hamid Bilici, chair of the finance department at Long Beach St. and a Los Alamito resident, gave money to Hahn. Why is Bilici giving money to someone far away from his district? Does Bilici also deny the Armenian genocide? Someone should ask him...
Comments (65)
1. Anonyms says: November 2, 2008
I worked on Adam Schiff's campaign when he was first elected to the CA Assembly from the Glendale area - an area with a very large Armenian population. It's natural that he would carry legislation on their behalf. He's a good family man and an excellent legislator.
The idea that political donations are a form of freedom of speech is a difficult one. I realize that democracy involves supporting one over another based on what one hopes to see happen legislatively. I do not agree with attack mailers in the last days of a campaign or with carpetbaggers interfering with the community politics of a place they don't live or belong.
2. qdpsteve says: November 2, 2008
Gustavo: if someone does ask Bilici (though why you want to go after him, for exercising his constitutional right to donate to anyone he chooses, is beyond me) what he thinks about the Armenian genocide and he acknowledges that it existed, will you apologize to him here in public?
Frankly I'm getting a little sick of OC Weekly perverse glee in constantly trying to publicly humilate and harass anyone who's ever donated more than a nickel to any Republican, anywhere, for any reason. I've heard that the self-described liberal, Phil Spector, is openly supporting Obama, Gustavo. Should the DNC return his money? Will the OC Weekly or LA Weekly be going after Spector for his donations too?
3. Gustavo Arellano says: November 2, 2008
qdpsteve: You're going overboard. My post isn't about contributing to Republicans at all--it's about an Armenian genocide denier (Kirlikovali) holding a fundraiser against Schiff for the expressed purpose of taking him out for his Armenian genocide resolution. As I noted in the post, Kirlikovali also gave money to a Democrat, so take off you GOP victim glasses. My issue is with Kirlikovali.
Why would I need to apologize to Bilici? I merely asked two legitimate questions--what is his interest in donating to Hahn considering Bilici lives far from Glendale, and, given that Kirlikovali and others on Hahn's list are Armenian genocide deniers and toppling Schiff for his position seems to be the main reason for the Coto de Caza fundraiser, does Bilici agree with their position?
Finally, I urge you to read this blog more often. We don't take "perverse glee" just with the donors to Republicans--are you not reading Matt's posts on Irvine and Larry Agran? Or mine on the Banana Republic? Last I checked, the Dems run those cities. Politics is politics, corruption corruption, and cretins cretins.
4. qdpsteve says: November 2, 2008
Gustavo: thanks for taking it down a notch. Apologies if I gave the impression I think of you as a partisan attack dog. But... what can I say? The coming election is making everyone crazy(ier), and it seems I and the OC Weekly are no exceptions. And OCW is rather open about its overall politics, which helps; at least you don't call yourselves "fair and balanced" like some other network whose name slips my mind right now. :-)
Having said that... it's not just about 'victim glasses.' This conservative will be happy to see Ted Stevens become unemployed in a few days, and it's likely that Dana Rohrabacher is nuttier than a Payday bar these days. You're right, fair is fair.
I simply don't see the need to go after Bilici, which is what set me off. It's one thing to go after Mr. Bren or Mr. Ahmanson; they've got more money than God and the influence comes with it free, whether they admit it or not. Bilici, on the other hand, sounds far more like the average working stiff. And, something of a rarity: a conservative on a local college campus. Plus he's teaching finance, not history. Do you think he's influencing his students about the Armenian genocide either way?
Anyway... sorry to go on so long. And, I may have a surprise for you soon. Gracias.
5. Ergun Kirlikovali says: November 2, 2008
Well, hold just one minute, Speedy Gonzalez?
Who the hell do you think you are blasting your way into my living room with all kinds of preposterous insults and innuendos?
This is not Tijuana, Amigo, this is America. We investigate and discuss things first before we attack someone.
Do you know the difference between you and the Los Angeles Times, Speedy?
You see, LAT had the decency to contact me first, ask me questions, hear me out, discuss with me, before writing their own take on the issues.
You, on the other hand, Speedy, jumped on my throat like hungry wolf on a lamb.
Slow down a bit, Speedy. There is plenty of fighting to go around, why do you pick one so readily, so unjustifiably, and so passionately? Are your sales and ratings really that low? Is this your gimmick, Speedy?
I was amused by your gibberish above, that you call an article. You went through whole lot of trouble for nothing, Speedy. All you had to do was ask me first. Let me show you how ridiculous you made yourself look:
1- You are wrong; Turkish businessmen did not hold the fundraiser; only one Turkish-American businessman did , and that would be yours truly.
2- You are wrong again; there were not only Turkish-American businessmen, but also Korean-Americans, Irish-Americans and others. There were more than 50 people in attendance and some 50 checks were mailed in. The total donations exceeded $15,000. And that’s just step number one.
3- You are wrong again; the fundraiser was not held “last month”, but on September 20, 2008. Please get your facts straight before attacking a person you don’t know.
4- Armenian allegations of genocide cannot be substantiated with historical evidence and there is no court verdict, like Nuremberg, saying that it is a genocide. Blaming someone with a crime not committed and without a court verdict supporting such blame, is called “lynching”. Are you part of lynch mob, Speedy?
5- You either produce a verdict passed by a “competent tribunal”, as set out by the1948 U.N. Convention on genocide, or you shut your foul mouth up, Speedy!
And all those errors you made just in the first paragraph… There is more, obviously, but I fear you may censor my response and all my typing would be wasted on you, Speedy.
Let’s see if you can take it as well as you dish it out, huh, Speedy?
Your best friend and buddy,
Ergun Kirlikovali
6. bulent bashol says: November 2, 2008
Gustavo Arellano, looks like you are keeping tally of Turkish American fundraisers, publishing names (addresses were somehow missing) of people who attended these events, and the amount of money they donated. I am sure Orange County residents are dying to get this information. You have gone overboard labelling people as "vile", "genocide-deniers", etc. Please keep in mind that the Turkish American community does not need your approval to support or oppose any politician. Your targeting and defamation of individuals in the Turkish community who are practicing their basic democratic rights is absolutely deplorable.
7. Erdal Atrek says: November 2, 2008
It is curious how Mr. Arellano got the information about who donated to Mr. Hahn and why. Not that there is anything wrong with it. But it just goes to show that Mr. Arellano either works closely with the Schiff campaign or he has been assigned to make this attack on people who use their Democratic rights. He has no right to question why a U.S. citizen living at location A should want to support a candidate from location B. In any case, Mr. Arellano makes it quite clear for everyone that Armenian interests are at the core of Mr. Schiff's campaign. As for the alleged "Armenian genocide", if Mr. Arellano had researched this subject to the level he has researched my background, he would have found that things just don't add up. I urge all who read this post to go out and find out more about the subject from publications by uninterested parties.
8. turkish deniers says: November 2, 2008
Hoo boy, not only does Ergun deny the Armenian genocide ever exist, he's also a bit of a Mexican bash. Classy, Ergun. Classy.
9. AlertAmerican says: November 2, 2008
It appears that Gustavo is unaware that only fools, liars and propagandists argue that the "Armenian Genocide" is an "historical fact that only Turkish nationalists and their apologists deny". There is a long list of highly reputable and authoritative Non-Turkish Historians and scholars who reject the "genocide" label for the events of 1915. And then there are informed Americans like me who are not willing to sit quietly while a miserable group of thugs and slanderers -some of them with PHD's- continue to slander their ideological opponents as "genocide deniers" when the clear fact of the matter is that the Turkish People do not deny the deaths; they only object to the use of the word "genocide" in describing them. By his verbiage and rhetoric it seems abundantly clear that Arellano would have us regard him as a man of "fairness" and truthfulness. Perhaps he could explain to us why his blog is so full of slanders for Ergun Kirlikovali and others of Turkish Ethnicity while failing to inform us of the fact that all these Turks do not "deny" the events in question at all! Instead of using his blog for a barrage of blatant slanders why can't he simply explain his position in decent, straightforward and logical terms? Is it that his position is fundamentally indefensible?
Here's a partial list of Non-Turkish Historians and Scholars who reject the "genocide" label for the 1915 events:
1. William Batkay
2. Roderic Davidson
3. Edward J. Erickson
4. David Fromkin
5. Edwin A. Grosvenor
6. Michael Gunter
7. J.C. Hurwitz
8. Eberhard Jäckel
9. Steven Katz
10. Avigdor Levy
11. Bernard Lewis
12. Guenther Lewy
13. Heath Lowry
14. Andrew Mango
15. Justin McCarthy
16. Pierre Oberling
17. Dankwart Rostow
18. Stanford Shaw
19. Norman Stone
20. Gilles Veinstein
21. Paul Dumont, Professor at Strasbourg-II University, director of the Institut français d'études anatoliennes (French Institute of Anatolian Studies, Istanbul);
22. Gwynne Dyer, Ph.D. in Ottoman military history;
23. Robert Mantran (RIP), former Professor of Turkish and Ottoman history at Aix-Marseille University;
24. Jeremy Salt, Professor of political science at Melbourne University.
10. sarp ersoylu says: November 2, 2008
In addition to the good comments posted by "Alert American", I suggest anyone who states commentary on the Armenian issue first have some basic factual information. The attached url for the brief documentary is a good start.
11. Gustavo Arellano says: November 2, 2008
Wow, Ergun. Not only do you deny the Armenian genocide, not only do you also seem to have a problem with Christians (care to explain your use of the term "Crusader bias"? The only people nowadays who toss around that term when not referring to the Crusades seem to be the Taliban and their apologists), but you also inject my Mexican ethnicity into this for no apparent reason. Classy--real classy and evident of your type of discourse.
The only mistake I made was in saying the fundraiser was held "last month" with the implication it was October. Yesterday (when this article was published) was Nov. 1, but I began writing my article in the early morn--it happens.
Funny how you insist on a court verdict for the Armenian genocide to be legitimate in your eyes, yet you say your people also suffered a genocide. Was the Turkish "genocide" labeled as such according to your strict standards? If not, why are you tossing around the term so freely? Are you part of lynch mob?
And we don't censor thought on Navel Gazing, Ergun: this is America, not Ankara.
Bulent: I think our readers are interested in knowing why some of their fellow Turkish-Orange Countians are so willing to give money to a campaign that has little to no bearing on Orange County. But intelligent minds can disagree, obviously.
Erdal: You obviously don't read the Weekly. We always report on out-of-town donations in local political races--take the money that's pouring into Irvine, for instance, and read my colleague Matt Coker's coverage about them. It's the donor's right to fork over cash, of course--and it's our duty at the Weekly to report it.
AlertAmerican: Lists are useless. I can pull out a list of historians who accept the Armenian genocide, then you pull out another, and I pull another, and so forth. I'll direct you to the Southern Poverty Law Center's article on some of the professors you cited--much more impartial than anyone here.
12. Stanley Fiala says: November 2, 2008
This article written by Gustavo Arellanois is a clear example about how far the Mexican socialists can go in California using "actual malice" in their articles to character assassin innocent people and if you want defend yourself or oppose them they scream racism and hate.
13. The Stiletto says: November 2, 2008
As The Armenian Vote Goes, So Goes The Nation?
Blogger News Network, November 2, 2008
http://www.bloggernews.net/118447
14. Erdal Atrek says: November 2, 2008
"Erdal: You obviously don't read the Weekly. We always report on out-of-town donations in local political races--take the money that's pouring into Irvine, for instance, and read my colleague Matt Coker's coverage about them. It's the donor's right to fork over cash, of course--and it's our duty at the Weekly to report it."
I think your blog goes a bit beyond merely reporting, as anyone can attest. You wouldn't be in collusion with the "pranksters" who left their urine samples on my front door the other day, would you?
15. AlertAmerican says: November 2, 2008
I'll be happy to explain the term "Crusader Bias". The Armenians are a Christian people and American Culture is a Christian (or "Judeo-Christian") Culture. The Armenians were let into this country En Masse just after World War 1; some of their leaders full of unquenched ethnic hatred toward ALL persons of Turkish Ethnicity (a Moslem Culture) and they have passed-down this hatred and thirst for vengeance to successive generations. Our culture may be Christian but many of us just don't want to go along with these Armenian Propagandists who have been insisting IN WRITING FOR NEARLY A CENTURY that we help them to "settle an old score" with that Moslem Culture that they hate so deeply. Any further Questions??
My post was not about lists of Historians. It was about Arellano's slandering of persons of Turkish Ethnicity; that's quite clear. He said that the "Armenian Genocide" is an "historical fact that only Turkish nationalists and their apologists deny" and instead of admitting that he was wrong he has attempted to use a rhetorical tactic to divert and distract readers' attention from the real issue.
16. sarp ersoylu says: November 2, 2008
Appranetly, the URL attachment did not go through. Here is another try.
The professors speaking on the attached documentary certainly have a lot more knowledge on the issue than anybody writing on this blog.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCmg7AdM1tU
17. Ergun Kirlikovali says: November 2, 2008
Dear Speedy,
May I ask you a few questions:
1- Do you have any connections to Adam Schiff or his office?
2- Did someone from DNC of their connections in California assign you the task of being a hitman to go harass, intimidate, and terrorize Turkish-Americans of Orange County?
3- Are you in any way related to Armenians by way of blood or marriage or boy-girl freindship?
4- Is anyone paying you or otherwise offering you benefits for acting like an attack dog on Turkish-Americans of Orange County?
5- "Crusader": look up the definition: a vigorous campaigner for or against something. You act like a crusader now.
6- Is your ethocidal behavior by design or by default?
Your freind and buddy,
Ergun Kirlikovali
18. sarp ersoylu says: November 2, 2008
Another recent article that the columnist should read.
http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12304946
19. Anonymous says: November 2, 2008
"I think our readers are interested in knowing why some of their fellow Turkish-Orange Countians are so willing to give money to a campaign that has little to no bearing on Orange County."
Really? Truly?
Do you also question the motive of Armenians that make donations to politicians whose jurisdictions they do not live in?
If not, here's where you can start showing that your article was unintentionally slanderous of a community exercising their Constitutional right to participate in the federal election system and that your true intent was fairness and impartial journalism:
Let's start with one example.
U.S. Senator Menendez (D-NJ) has received over $140,000 in campaign contributions from Armenians, many of whom do not live in NJ. Even Armenians from your neck of the woods out in California donate to Menendez.
For a list of Armenians who have donated to Menendez: http://www.poligazette.com/2008/08/05/buying-policies/
For your convenience, you will notice that donors who are not Menendez's constituents are hi-lited in yellow.
Please also clarify, by "nationalist Turk" are you referring to U.S. citizen of Turkish descent who exercise their rights as citizens?
Or was that intended to be an insult aimed at the ethnicity of those American citizens?
20. Anonymous says: November 2, 2008
I also have a few more questions for you Gustavo concerning your certitude about Armenian claims.
1. Did you know that during the time period in question, starting in 1914 (before the relocation of Ottoman Armenians) until the end of WWI that 200,000 Armenian militants were armed and fighting against the Ottoman Empire?
2. Do you know that's more troops than the U.S. has had in Iraq at one time during this most recent war?
3. Did you know that Ottoman Armenians, including those who were then currently sitting members of the Ottoman parliament, just prior to the start of WWI hostilities, openly told the Ottoman government they would fight with the Russians against the Ottomans?
4. Do you know that Armenian political leaders admitted at the Paris Peace conference, and told anyone who would listen, that Ottoman Armenians in southeastern were "de facto belligerants" against the Ottoman Empire from the very outset of the war?
You should go read some publications authored by the leaders of the Armenian militants: Garegin Pastermadjian, Boghos Nubar and Hovhannes Katchaznouni -- those are good ones to start with.
My understanding is that, if you are a "de facto belligerant", it's called "war" and not "genocide."
21. Jannaan says: November 3, 2008
Please refer to
http://www.thejc.com/node/7528
titled: "Denial is not a criminal matter"
22. Bob Squalonero says: November 3, 2008
"Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?" -- Adolf Hitler, in a speach given on 8/22/1939.
I'm sorry, was someone was saying something about the Armenian genocide never occurring?
23. Stanley Fiala says: November 3, 2008
#22 Jannaan, we have such laws in USA it is called "Hate Crime Act".
Under this law a homosexual can hang white woman Sarah Palin in front of his house but white woman can't hang a homosexual in front of her house.
Did Gustavo condemned this homosexual hate crime???...... I am waiting for an article.
Folks, same abuse will happen to the marriage if homosexuals get hold of it.
SO VOTE YES ON 8.
24. Ergun Kirlikovali says: November 3, 2008
THE INFAMOUS HITLER QUOTE: A FORGERY
http://www.turkla.com/yazar.php?mid=447&yid=4
Please read Dr. Heath Lowry’s (Prof. of History, Princeton University) research tracing the origins of the alleged Hitler statement.
It reveals how an infamous Hitler quote, an “embellishment” and a clever fabrication, found its way to the highest levels of the American society: media, politics, even museum. Imagine, if you will, our elected officials, uttering these baseless words, believing that they are factual just because it is repeated so often, when in reality, they are not.
How can we trust a politician, or even an academician, a journalist, or anyone else, for that matter, who blindly subscribes to the Armenian claims, is spite of the massive body of historical evidence and scholarly research that categorically refute and reject them?
Such ethocidal* behavior on the part of some of our elected officials and others is simply inexcusable. The Turks may make a “risk-free, easy target” for the hateful AFATH propaganda due to Turkish silence and a bonanza for those politicians like Schiff seeking a "quick return on investment" as in AFATH support.
The dignified Turkish silence is based in deep rooted Turkish culture where it is believed that suffering and does not need advertising, marketing, or selling . This dignified Turkish silence must not be misinterpreted as admission of guilt. Turks may never match the AFATH’s** arrogance, pettiness, or intensity.
Furthermore, the Turks may also have to battle to get the Turkish point of view across that invisible, latent, but potent anti-Turkish bias and bigotry, instilled by centuries of teachings. But none of this can change the bitter fact that it was a civil war within a war, not genocide. It was wartime suffering that did not discriminate on basis of ethnicity or religion, bur killed on its path.
…………………….
Legend:
* Ethocidal = Having the characteristics of systematic and malicious mass deception
**AFATH = Armenian Falsifiers and Turk Haters
25. Erdal Atrek says:
November 3, 2008 08:46
Mr. Squalonero quotes a fabrication attributed Hitler. The only source for that quote is a war time propaganda book "What About Germany?" by Peter Lochner, published in 1943. According to the author, he received, from his unidentified source, a transcript of a speech HItler made in a secret meeting. More than likely, the book publication included sufficient re-engineering of the speech to aid the war effort. The Nurnberg authorities never accepted this version of the speech, and the accepted version does not include the Hitler quote. Thus, Mr. Lochner's book remains the only thread on which the quote hangs.
26. hadeh says: November 3, 2008
Gustavo - Tremendous job. Stay strong - the deniers just try to intimidate everyone. You are a hero for calling it out.
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/intrep.jsp?iid=45
All the comments are a ploy to bully people into not acknowledging the genocide.
Mr. Erdal - Hitler referred to the extermination of the Armenians on several occasions - some before he even took power. Look it up.
Those professors listed above are all part of the denial machine - just like Professor Donald Quataert used to be - http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=960
27. hadeh says: November 3, 2008
Nobody hates Turks. Having a problem with a genocidal campaign of a government gone awry - yes most folks have a problem with that - but not with people of an ethnic group.
Please drop that talking point as it is false and misleads the discussion away from the true issue which is recognition of the genocide.
Just acknowledge the genocide - then we can get on with our lives. If your neighbor slaughters your whole family and then smiles at you to be friends - what kind of world is that for the victim?
28. hadeh says: November 3, 2008
Yes the same Heath Lowry who was exposed as a fraud and only got the chair at Princeton through Turkish denialist connections - he had not published anything worthwhile or done any real scholarly work.
http://users.ids.net/~gregan/pac.html
http://users.ids.net/~gregan/crednt.html
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Armenian_Genocide
29. Lisa Nava says: November 3, 2008
Ergun,
I have trouble understanding why you are so invested in hating Armenian's. Maybe you can explain?
You did not kill any Armenian in 1915, just as no Armenian-living now-is experiencing a genocide.
Your response to this article is fueled by hatred and anger. You made that perfectly clearly, but here's what I would like to know:
Your country already has Armenian land. Mt. Ararat is now in Turkey. You have stamped historical Armenian land with the flag of Turkey. Your citizens have desecrated ancient Armenian churches. Your educators and historians have successfully convinced your youth that the Armenian Genocide never happened. Armenian's are now scattered throughout the world, their language now has many variations, their country struggles as an independent nation...is this not enough proof that your people were successful?
If you're upset that your country is not accepted in the EU, or that you are forced to deny your most gifted and honorable, Nobel Prize Winning, writer Orhan Pamuk...simply because he accepts Turkish shortcomings and believes that there is a way to love his country by acknowledging it's mistakes....then you should look at your own racist response to this post and reconsider your position.
In this country we do not reward hatred. The genocide committed against the Armenians' was almost completely successful-be proud of that if you wish, but remember that We are still here!
Also, my dear Ergun, our blood may have flooded the Euphrates ninety-three years ago, but our bones are strong and our memories are sharp...we're not going anywhere.
Thank you Mr. Arellano for your responsible journalism.
30. Danny Knight says: November 3, 2008
The shameless genocide denial of Ergun Kirlikovali has no limit, now he's trying to influence a congressional race that has nothing to do with his district because of his racist Turkish beliefs. It wasn't enough that the Turks wiped out the entire Armenian civilization from its western homeland, now he likes to wipe away that memory and the right of the victims to remember. The 29th district congress candidate that attended this fundraise will pay his price at the polls, besides branding himself a fool.
31. Vahe says: November 3, 2008
You Turkish deniers are a joke. All one has to do is look at Turkey's history regarding the Armenian Genocide. They've changed their story nearly 7 times since the Armenian Genocide.
There are honorable men, and there are dishonorable men.
Gustavo Arellano is an honorable man for speaking the truth.
Nearly all the "Historians" that AlertAmerican posted have been discredited.
Also, Mr. AlertAmerican, you should be aware that the Armenian Genocide has been accepted by 40 states in the USA, the house foreign relations committee, Ronald Reagan, France, Germany, Russia, Syria, Wales, and many many more nations.
Stop trying to hide from your history Turkey. The noose is being tightened on your neck and the only way to escape the international communities contempt is to admit the evils you have committed not only to the Armenians, but the Assyrians, Jews, Greeks, and anybody else that wasn't a "Turk".
Open your eyes and see that no country in the world respects you because they see that you are a lying nation, the "Sick man of Europe". Fess up and start to join the world community. Don't fess up and drown in your own ignorance.
32. Truth says: November 3, 2008
The Armenian Genocide is clearly documented throughout history- http://www.armenian-genocide.org/research.html
No one should even humour the genocide deniers... Thank you Mr. Arellano for acknowledging the facts...
33. Jannaan says: November 3, 2008
Hadeh,
Your claim that 'no one hates Turks' sounds hollow, upon reading comments trying to assert Armenian claims without proof.
Which government had a genocidal campaign?
Due to attacking major world powers, Ottoman Empire was crumbling at the time. Government forces had lost power no thanks to the armed Armenian volunteers of 200,000 attacking on the ranks of the Russian army into Eastern Anatolia.
Stanley Fiala,
You cannot judge a 19th Century event with 21st Century standards. 1915 events need to be examined in the backdrop of World War I. British and French armada started to hammer the Gallipoli peninsula on April 24 1915 in an effort to invade the capital city Istanbul. On the same day, Armenian minority of Eastern Anatolia started to massacre civilian Muslims in an effort to establish a pure Christian state for the Armenians. Turks acted in self defense by relocating the racist nation of Armenians who were in rebellion all over Anatolia.
Genocide is a legal term defined by the UN convention. It has nothing to do with people's personal preferences. It also does not include warring parties.
Sorry, not every death can be labeled a genocide. Government forces intent to destroy the group members for belonging to that group has to be established in a court of law. Armenians have prepared some forgeries over the 90 years, but no evidence is put forward yet.
The number of Armenian dead are so much exaggerated that we started to believe the Armenian dead do multiply. Why is there no mention of Turks killed by the Armenians and other invading enemy forces at the same time frame and location?
If every fighting Armenian has two siblings a dad and a mom, total number of Armenians who were innocent can be calculated as: 5*200,000 =1,000,0000. This is more than the total number of Armenians living in the area at the time. The 1911 print of Encyclopedia Britannica claimed the total population of Armenians in Anatolia as 1.3 million. Even Armenian leader Boghos Nubar announced over 600,000 Armenians reached Syria. What remains is how could more people than existed can have perished.
There cannot be denial of something which is not proven.
34. Jannaan says: November 3, 2008
Aram Andonian must be an honorable man or a hero, according to biased Armenian allegationists. Aram Andonian is the Armenian who presented forgeries as if they were secret orders wired by Talat Pasha.
Could Tessa Hoffman be another honest Armenian leader/hero? She used a Russian painting of skulls on the cover of her book as if it was photograph of Armenian skulls killed by Turks.
Certainly the ASALA murderers are heros of Armenian nationalists. The Orly murderer was assigned a house and pension by the Armenian Government. The five are remembered in Belgium last month.
In reality, there is no honor in defense of the Armenian allegations. They are blinded with fake stories, armed with unrealistic tales of greater Armenia and their aims are not peaceful.
35. Stanley Fiala says: November 3, 2008
Jannaan,
I do not know if you have noticed but I was making my comment in support of yours.
You have stated: "You cannot judge a 19th Century event with 21st Century standards."
Yes you can because the history is repeating itself and there will be always people who will try to rewrite it for their personal gain like Gustavo.
Just take recent imbroglio in that area between Russia and Gruzia/Georgia. Who attack who?
We know the truth but it will never be told.
My problem is with Socialists like Gustavo who will use history to perpetuate lies for their personal gains and will stigmatize all opponents by use of the Hate Crime Act.
As an European, I fully understand how deep some events may go into the history to create hate. Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina hates go back about 500 years.
The Mexicans hate Americans for about 160 years because they lost the war in 1848 and cannot get over it and Gustavo will keep flapping his gums about it and will support Mexican fascistic groups like La Raza.
I was showing that homosexuals can attack normal people and that is a OK but if normal people attack homosexuals that is hate crime.
Mexicans can conduct ethnic cleansing against the Blacks in Southeast Los Angeles and Gustavo will never report on it because it is politically incorrect.
36. hadeh says: November 3, 2008
Lowry - here is some background on Lowry - a rather undeserving Chair of anything at a prestigious university.
http://users.ids.net/~gregan/pac.html
http://users.ids.net/~gregan/crednt.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heath_W._Lowry#cite_note-6
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Armenian_Genocide
And also - regarding Hitler - he referred to the Armenians not only in 1939 but in 1931 as well.
37. Ergun Kirlikovali says: November 3, 2008
Do you realize how our beloved Speedy Gonzalez disappeared from the radar scope just as soon as I asked those pointed questions about his current or past connections with the A.F.A.T.H. community (Armenian- Falsifiers-And-Turk- Haters) ?
Speedy probably frets over my questions and secretly hopes that I will forget about them if he stayed silent a few days. Not a chance, though. Here are those questions again, with a few improvements along the way. I would appreciate it if you shared your responses with your readers here.
Caution: do not attempt to lie, because I will check your facts to see if your are deceiving your readers again. So here we go again:
***
Dear Speedy,
May I please repeat my questions, since you failed to respond to them to this date:
1- Do you have any connections to Adam Schiff or his office? If yes, who?
2- Did someone from DNC or their connections in California assign you the task of being a hit man to go harass, intimidate, and terrorize Turkish-Americans of Orange County? Who gave you such a task?
3- Are you in any way related to Armenians by way of blood or marriage or girl friend(s) current or past?
4- Is anyone paying you or otherwise offering you benefits for acting like an attack dog on Turkish-Americans of Orange County? (Benefits could include money, recognition, awards, invitations, commercial ads, grants, book-deals, film-deals, speech-deals, panel/seminar invitations, and/or other such direct or indirect rewards)
5- Is your ethocidal * behavior by design or by default?
6- Do you know what TERESET is?
Your dear friend and buddy,
Ergun Kirlikovali
-------------------
(*) Ethocide: extermination of ethics by systematic and malicious mass-deception for political, cultural, and/or other gain.
38. anonymous says: November 3, 2008
TERESET*
--------------------------
(*) Tereset: fabricated portmanteau word
39. Mike says:
November 3, 2008 16:20
Ergun, have a soul. These were people that were raped, murdered, and torn off their homelands by the Turks. All you're trying to do is trivialize the facts like any other genocide denier because you simply can't face the facts.
40. pilisopa says: November 3, 2008
God forbid a man like Mr. Arellano tells the truth.
Now, unfortunately, he has to deal with not only revisionists but also racists. I literally couldn't believe my eyes as Ergun Kirlikovali racially slurred Mr. Arellano. Then again, this is America and perhaps this is what happens when one is let out of a fascistic Turkey where freedom of speech is not guaranteed - true feelings come out.
NO reputable scholar denies the veracity of the Armenian Genocide. Even Bernard Lewis realized that the money from the Turkish government wasn't enough to sustain his despicable denialist rhetoric and he stopped.
To put it simply, the International Association of GENOCIDE Scholars - the most reputed academics and historians of genocide in the world - have called the events of 1915-1918 genocide. http://www.genocidescholars.org/resolutionsstatements.html
You can also see the letter they sent to the Prime Minister of Turkey. http://www.genocidescholars.org/images/OpenLetterTurkishPMreArmenia6-13-05.pdf
I'm not sure what's left.
Actually, I think that although Turks say that politicians and parliaments shouldn't be deciding what is genocide, they are being insincere because politicians (like Hahn) can be bought. The historians have already made up their mind.
41. Gustavo Arellano says: November 3, 2008
Ergun: I was waiting for you to ask where I was! Final proof I needed of your character. If you've been reading this blog, I've been reporting on other things--it's an election, you know.
To your questions, but first: you didn't answer mine about this Turkish "genocide" you speak of--was it classified as a genocide by a tribunal? If not, why do you call it as such?
My answers:
1. I hadn't heard of Adam Schiff until the Times article.
2. The DNC doesn't particularly like me--if you bothered to read the Weekly, you'd know this. I haven't harassed, intimidated or terrorized anyone--just connecting dots.
3. The only relationship I have to Armenians is when I eat at Zankou Chicken in Anaheim--and I don't go there much.
4. I have nothing against Turkish-Americans (more on that in a bit), only against vile men like yourself. And to suggest I'd ever do payola is laughable--again, this is America, not Ankara.
5. I looked up "ethocidal" in my English language dictionary and couldn't find a definition--sorry!
6. Yeah, I know Teresa--she's a girl I had the hots for in high school.
Erdal: Wasn't me. Maybe one of those University High pranksters that trashed the school a couple of weeks ago?
One of the anons: Yes, if local Armenians (or any other group, for that matter) started giving money in droves to an outside candidate, I would consider it news. We've done these stories in the past with other donors--you can look them up.
AlertAmerican and others: How have I slandered the Turkish-American community? I have nothing against it--I've known some, and they are pretty cool (great raki!). If I truly hated Turks, I would've never told my readers to eat at Doner G in Anaheim--great Turkish food. I do take issue, however, with those Turks (and anyone, for that matter) who deny the Armenian genocide. I find that reprehensible--and, although Ergun thinks otherwise, you don't need any connection to Armenians to feel that way.
42. hadeh says: November 3, 2008
and for those that think the 1939 hitler quote was a fake - sorry - he referred to the armenians at other times - even before he was chancellor and also had other organic connections to the armenian case:
1) Hitler's trusted advisor Max Erwin von Scheubner-Richter was stationed in Turkey during the years of the Armenian Genocide,
2) as a result of the Tehlirian trial for the murder of Talat (which was held with much fanfare in Berlin in 1921 while Hitler was also there), and
3) through general knowledge of the plight of the Armenians which was well known by the Germans as a result of the hundreds of correspondences and publicity from Turkey to this regard during the First World War.
On top of that please see the Adolph Hitler interview with Richard Breiting (who was poisoned by the Gestapo in 1937) , editor of Leipziger Neueste Nachrichten (a German daily newspaper) 4 May 1931: (excerpts)
“We must already be thinking of resettlement of millions of men from Germany and Europe. Migrations of people have always taken place”
“Are we really going to remain a nation of have-nots forever?” “ We have the capacity to rouse and lead the masses against this situation.”
“We intend to introduce a great resettlement policy;”
"In 1923 little Greece could resettle a million men. Think of the biblical deportations and the massacres of the Middle Ages and remember the extermination (some texts translate as eradication) of the Armenians (some texts translate as Armenia).”
43. Racism go away says: November 3, 2008
Dear Mr. Ergun Kirlikovali -
Your arguments here have made you a liability to Mr. Hahn's campaign.
Your racism towards Gustavo Arellano's ethnicity discredits your perspective as a rational individual and thinker. "Speedy Gonzalez?" Are you an adult, sir? That is a racial slur.
It would behoove Mr. Hahn's campaign to return your donation and dissociate himself from a supporter who acts in this manner under pressure. To make matters worse, you exposed your racial bias here in writing by immediately attacking another man's ethnicity, prior to your attempt at rebutting his message.
It's clear that you did not appreciate Mr. Arellano's post. However, attacking the man's race..."Well, hold just one minute, Speedy Gonzalez?" in the first line of YOUR first post is possibly the worst retort you could have made. Perhaps you have friends that are of all different races, religions, or orientation? How unfortunate that you chose such a terrible knee-jerk reaction and insulted not only Mr. Arellano, but all people that share his ethnicity.
Racism is the first step towards genocide.
44. anonymous says: November 3, 2008
Although I too am not an expert on this topic, I would like to add a couple humble observations...
1) I don't think it is useful to the dialogue here to refer to Ergun as having "racist Turkish beliefs" or being "a vile man" or "hating Armenians". From what I see listed above, he has some legitimate, unanswered questions about the events of WWI and, unless I missed it, I don't see that he has said hat he hates Armenians at all. Given that he is Turkish, if from Istanbul, I would venture a guess that he has more Armenian friends than any of us here do.
Why don't we openly discuss what he means by "the untold genocide of Turks"? Although I disagree with the use of the word genocide by both sides, it is historically true that there was death of all ethnicities during the last days of the Ottoman Empire. Yet, not one person here ventured to ask, "Gee, Ergun, what on earth are you referring to? I've never heard that side of this story before."
2) I am still unsure why a fundraiser outside of a politician's district is getting such passioned debate. The valid comment above about Mendez was all but ignored here in this debate. We all know this happens everywhere, all the time, in every district. A recent report that came out yesterday points out that 97% of Congressional candidates raise at least 50% of their funds from outside their district. This is nothing new. If you are concerned, Ergun is not who you should tell; call your congressperson- and every other congressperson and work for campaign finance reform that would limit this.
It is good reporting, but I am unsure why a focus in on the Turkish community's measly $15,000 raised for a candidate that has raised what, $70K against an opponent who has raised nearly $1 million. The underdog, historically marginalized, far-too-geographically-dispersed-to-be-effective Turkish-American community raises a bit of money for a long-shot candidate who is firmly backed by a strong and vocal Armenian lobby....Where is the exciting story? Where is the scandal?
3) Nearly all of the historians and experts listed above have not been discredited. Simply calling these authors "deniers" does not magically means that their research has no merit. We are fortunate to be in a liberal democracy here so let's be open minded and really work to hear all the data, stories, and family histories from this era and not simply force a resolution down the collective boğaz of the Turks and tell them to shut-up and move on.
45. shkegh-adana says: November 3, 2008
Dear Gustavo, I was at your book presentation and book signing a few weeks ago. All I have to say is, Alakh bajnvar muh, I LOVE YOU! Keep on doing what you're doing!
VIVA GUSTAVO ARELLANO!
46. Boston says: November 3, 2008
Mr .Gustavo Arellano,
Please know your facts before you open your mouth or in your case type a word. You have been spoon-fed bias from Armenians. I have seen the Armenian escalate their numbers from approx. 580,000 (1974) to the current number 1.5 million. The dead do not procreate. How can you trust any group who lie about the number who died? What other stories and tales have the Armenians fabricated for media and history?
As for donations from outside the area, anyone with an I.Q. above 110 and has access to a computer, can go to www/opensecrets.org and find who donated to what politician. A Schiff received over $33,000 from people who did not live even in California. Talk about calling the kettle black!!
47. Anonymous says: November 3, 2008
"One of the anons: Yes, if local Armenians (or any other group, for that matter) started giving money in droves to an outside candidate, I would consider it news. We've done these stories in the past with other donors--you can look them up."
Then go for it. I've given you the link that lists Armenian donors that gave thousands of dollars to Menendez, but who don't live in NJ.
ALSO, would you please do an expose on the exploitation of photos from Holocaust by Armenians?
Did you know that all over the internet, just like the fabricated Hitler quote (which by the way, even an Armenian historian disavows and has asked the diaspora to stop using), Armenians pawn off photos of Jews killed by Nazis as photos of Armenians killed by Turks?
Here's the link to the video (it's very well done, you really should watch it):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGU6s4i38I8
And, lest you think it's only one or two Armenians that use them, keep watching the video and it will show you that it is much much more than that.
One has to wonder, if these claims by Armenians are so undeniably real--
1. Why do the perpetuate so many forgeries and falsifications?
2. Why hasn't Armenia taken this to the ICJ?
3. Why do Armenians conceal the Dashnak military archives which document Armenian militant activity in southeastern Anatolia during WWI?
Did you know Gustavo, the caretaker of the Armenian Dashnak archives in Boston claimed they didn't have enough money to catalogue the documents and that's why they were kept from everyone except those that promote their genocide hypothesis.
And, then, when the director of the Turkish historical institute offered to donate $20M to the Armenian archives so they could be catalogued-- guess what happened?
Complete SILENCE.
So, Gustavo, I will keep checking back in for that expose on California Armenians donating to Menendez and your reportage on the exploitation of Holocaust photos by Armenians.
48. John says: November 3, 2008
Thanks for an excellent article Gustavo. I praise your efforts at exposing denial in any of it's many ugly forms. We are talking about an event which is affirmed by the International Association of Genocide Scholars. I'd like to hear an intelligent argument for what ax they have to grind with regard to the Armenian Genocide. Why would a hundred and fifty scholars and experts on the subject sign onto a statement that they don't fully believe in? You have done the right thing, but don't believe it because I say it, and don't believe you are wrong because ignorant people commenting here say you are. You have done your research and you know what is right and wrong. That is all you need to know.
Thanks again,
John
Claremont, CA
49. hadeh says: November 3, 2008
Anonymous wrote:
"The underdog, historically marginalized, far-too-geographically-dispersed-to-be-effective Turkish-American community raises a bit of money for a long-shot candidate who is firmly backed by a strong and vocal Armenian lobby....Where is the exciting story? Where is the scandal?"
The excitement creeps in to this story when the Turkish government spends millions and millions of dollars on high-priced lobbying firms (DLA Piper, the Livingston Group and others), public relations firms (Fleishman-Hillard), and strong-arms the Jewish American lobby (AIPAC, ADL, AJC, etc.) into working against any kind of government recognition of the Armenian Genocide. Do not assume we are unaware of these factors.
The grassroots phenomenon is firmly on the Armenian American constituency side - the old communities that are in the US because of the genocide itself. But that power is but a drop compared to the will of multiple governments, their top government officials, and the best lobbying and PR firms money can buy.
And with all that power and money on the side of denial - the truth still shines through.
Let's get real here.
50. Anonymous says: November 3, 2008
Also, Gustavo, I still eagerly await the answer to my two questions above, repeated below for your convenience.
Please also clarify, by "nationalist Turk" are you referring to U.S. citizen of Turkish descent who exercise their rights as citizens?
Or was that intended to be an insult aimed at the ethnicity of those American citizens?
I'm trying to decide if my campaign contributions this year render me a "nationalist American" and your response is critical to that determination.
Oh dear, and if I contributed to multiple campaigns, does that make me an "ultra-nationalist American"?
51. Anonymous says: November 3, 2008
Dear Hadeh,
You bring up a good point.
Let's take a closer look at Armenian campaign contributions.
Menendez of NJ received $136,000 from Armenians.
There are 50 Senators and 435 and something odd House of Representatives.
Now, that adds up to some big Armenian cash: $136,000 x 485 = $66M Total
Hadeh, I'd have to say your post smacks of some serious hypocracy with a capital H.
52. Anonymous says: November 3, 2008
Pardon the typo. That should have been-
Now, that adds up to some big Armenian cash: $136,000 x 485 = $66M Total
Hadeh, I'd have to say your post smacks of some serious hypocrisy with a capital H.
53. Tracy says: November 3, 2008
Wow, I can’t believe that Ergun and his friends are continuing this cycle of hate. To hear Turks, in this day and age, completely revise and shroud history under a blanket of lies. I am impressed with how they have manipulated what is so ostensibly clear and true. What I want is justice for all people. Armenians, the Jews, the people of Darfur. It is people like Ergun, who are radicals and who perpetuate the cycle of Genocide and want to shut the truth up just like when Turkish-Armenian journalist Hrant Dink was killed on the streets of Istanbul just two years ago, because he spoke up for the Genocide and now that hatred has transplanted itself on this country’s shores- -the country that my grandparents and their families found refuge in to escape the horrors of the Genocide. Dear Ergun, you are committing the final act of Genocide which is silencing the truth.
It isn’t enough that I can never go back to the city and land that my parents and grandparents and ancestors inhabited for thousands of years. It isn’t enough that I may never be close to the holy Mountain Ararat. It isn’t enough that virtually no Armenians live in the land they are indigenous of, the land that they have inhabited since 3000 BC. It isn’t enough that they were forced to leave and scattered all over the world as a result of the Genocide. It is isn’t enough that I had to hear my grandmother wake up in the middle of the night and scream from having nightmares so many years after she had escaped the Genocide. It isn’t enough that Henry Morgenthau and countless other diplomats have written eye-witness accounts of the Armenian Genocide. It isn’t enough that the thousands of Armenian historical landmarks, monasteries and churches in ancient Armenia have now been pissed upon. This isn’t enough for you? Are you mad that every single Armenian wasn’t wiped off the face of the earth.. and now you continue this succession of Genocide with your denial.
What are you gaining from this? How does this enrich your soul? I hope and pray that someday you can transcend your hate. I hope that you can come to terms with your country’s history, I pray and hope this can happen so we can all move on. I don’t care what you say. I know in my heart what is true. Go ahead and build your websites, collect money from lobbyists, call Armenians liars and fabricators and try your best at revising events, but in the end truth will prevail and nothing can compete with the truth.
C’mon Ergun, C’mon Turks, you can do it. You can accept the sins of your fathers and really rise above the horror, and then you will be at peace and your country and its culture will thrive. It must get tiring to keep up this act. I send peace to all.
My boyfriend is Jewish, his grandparents were survivors of the Holocaust. He just turned to me and said that if Neo-Nazi’s were on an esteemed blog site, speaking against the Holocaust there would be absolutely no room for it. Nobody is taking you seriously.
Goodnight and have sweet dreams.
54. pilisopa says: November 4, 2008
What's the point of arguing with people who don't want to be logical?
I say the International Association of Genocide Scholars has repeatedly recognized the Armenian Genocide and "Anonymous" posts a link to a ridiculous video on YouTube, calling it "really very well done", that supposedly proves that Armenians are falsifying pictures.
In case you weren't aware, many of the pictures taken of the Armenian Genocide were by Armin T. Wegner, a German soldier who went so far as to write to Woodrow Wilson about the atrocities taking place.
Turks are not interested in an intellectual discussion. They just want to keep talking because the longer they do, the farther we get away from when it happened. We will not tire.
55. Anonymous says: November 4, 2008
Dear Pili and Tracy,
1. Did you know that during the time period in question, starting in 1914 (before the relocation of Ottoman Armenians) until the end of WWI that 200,000 Armenian militants were armed and fighting against the Ottoman Empire?
2. Do you know that's more troops than the U.S. has had in Iraq at one time during this most recent war?
3. Did you know that Ottoman Armenians, including those who were then currently sitting members of the Ottoman parliament, just prior to the start of WWI hostilities, openly told the Ottoman government they would fight with the Russians against the Ottomans?
4. Do you know that Armenian political leaders admitted at the Paris Peace conference, and told anyone who would listen, that Ottoman Armenians in southeastern were "de facto belligerants" against the Ottoman Empire from the very outset of the war?
You should go read some publications authored by the leaders of the Armenian militants: Garegin Pastermadjian, Boghos Nubar and Hovhannes Katchaznouni -- those are good ones to start with.
If you are a "de facto belligerant", it's called "war" and not "genocide."
Comments here by Armenians and Gustavo's article come perilously close to intimidation and threatening U.S. citizens who have dared to exercise their Constitutional right to participate in the federal election process.
Let's not forget that the first acts of domestic terror in the U.S. was not the 9/11 attack, but those perpetrated by Armenian terrorist groups.
It was in southern California that Armenian terrorists first began murdering Turks in the U.S. on the street back in 1973.
That, in light of the treacherous tone of this article is NOT an insignificant fact.
56. Gustavo Arellano says: November 4, 2008
Anon with the Melendez obsession: Most of those contributions you cite come from outside Orange County--I only concern myself with stories based from here. Same with those allegedly doctored shots--if someone from Orange County did them, I'm interested. Otherwise, no go--and if you have a problem with this, I suggest you contact my editor.
Another anon: Ergun very much is vile (hello? Speedy Gonzalez?)--the racist remarks came from someone else. Of course the Turks suffered during WWI, as did the Germans and pretty much all of the war's battleground. But that's not the issue here.
Anon above me: Intimidation? Treacherous? Give me a break. Nowhere did I say people can't give donations, and nowhere did I peg a donation or thought on a non-guilty party. Also, the first acts of domestic terrorism in the U.S. were the Weather Underground--aren't you paying attention to the election?
Some other anon: I define a Turkish nationalist as someone so jingoistic about their country that a critique of some part of their nation--whether the past, a belief, or any facet thereof--is a insult on ALL of its people, character and myths. I'd apply the same to some of my fellow Americans, who can't bear the sins of the past (or present, for that matter) when someone brings them up. Which leads me to...
All you Armenian genocide deniers can spare me your spin. How do I know it happened? You mean, besides the cries and testimony of a people who lived under Ottoman rule for so long and therefore are the true aggrieved minority in this conversation? Like this: Whenever people accuse the United States of horrors (baby killing in Vietnam, etc.), our country as a whole shrugs its shoulders--people will think what they think. When a country or people accuse Turkey of genocide in regards to Armenians, the government and most of its citizens have a fit. The government will jail people in Turkey if you dare speak about this--they tried to jail Orhan Pamuk! Why? This leads me to believe that Turkey has something to hide--and the comments here reaffirm this belief.
57. Anonymous says: November 4, 2008
1- SPEEDY GONZALEZ
I see that some writers do not seem know who Speedy Gonzales is and assume that the moniker must be derogatory. A little background information, therefore, seems in order.
It is a lovable cartoon character, an animated mouse drawing from the Warner Brothers Looney Tunes. Speedy's major attribute is his ability to run lightning fast. He usually wears a huge sombrero, a white outfit, a big red ascot, and talks with a hilarious Mexican accent. Here is a classic Freleng short from the 1950s. My treat; enjoy watching it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t43_ilAdwC8
As you can see, this film is about a cat guarding a cheese factory at the border. The other mice, who are uninteresting, forgettable, run of the mill characters with no names, use Speedy as their “hit man” to get passed the cat on the way to the cheese (sounds familiar?)
Before you judge Speedy Gonzalez harshly, though, let me remind you that he won the 1955 Academy Award for Best Cartoon and I still love that show to this day.
I remember how some complained about Speedy’s alleged stereotypical depictions of Mexicans. But I also remember LUTAC (The League of United Latin American Citizens) disputing these claims as LUTAC thought Speedy was, actually, a lot of fun and, indeed, a positive depiction of Mexicans.
Speedy is overwhelmingly unselfish as he helps others. He is smart, and he always gets the cheese. Fans like myself put Speedy back on the air. You can still catch it, every now and then, on Cartoon Network.
I call the blogger Speedy Gonzalez, strictly because of the speed with which he decided that a political fundraiser , an perfect exercise in democracy, was evil if held for a non-resident political candidate and that all Turkish-Americans (and Korean-Americans, Irish-Americans, Azeri-Americans, and others who also attended the fundraiser) were terrible people to be summarily attacked and insulted. It was a sarcastic but yet polite and humorous reference to his intimidating, harassing, and hateful attacks on all Turkish-Americans.
As revealed by a message above, Speedy apparently goes on book signing tours (though I feel sorry for those who are subjected to his writings) and he needs to sell books.
Well, Warner Brothers’ Speedy gets his cheese, mine gets his “book sales”.
2- “VILE”
On the other hand, the direct insult Speedy hurled at me, just as soon as he found out about my fundraiser for Hahn and just because I am a Turkish-American who disputes the unproven Armenian allegations of genocide, provides a stark contrast to the thoughtful and humorous nickname I chose for him in response.
He could have been thankful to me and retract his insult, but instead, he chose to deliberately repeat it.
I reserve all rights to defend myself in face of personal , libelous and hateful attacks on my person , and against ethnic discrimination.
Along those lines, I would like to share with you a press release by the TALDF ( Turkish American Legal Defense Fund ) yesterday:
3- ARMENIAN AMERICAN VERBAL THUGGERY IN OHIO PROVOKES CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION REQUEST
Washington, DC, November 3, 2008
The Turkish American Legal Defense Fund today requested the Attorney General of Ohio, Nancy H. Rogers, to open a criminal investigation under Ohio law into signature Armenian verbal thuggery employed by Armenian American independent candidate David Krikorian against Representative Jean Schmidt.
The Congresswoman represents the 2nd district of Ohio, and is running for re-election. The criminal lies under that Krikorian recently splattered against Ms. Schmidt are emblematic of the religiously and ethnically bigoted campaign tactics that Armenian Americans celebrate, directly or indirectly, against congressional candidates who refuse to salute their narrow, close-minded, fanatical anti-Turkish agenda.
Ohio’s Revised Code makes criminal intentional falsehoods calculated to impact elections. Other candidates for Congress that have been similarly victimized by Armenian American verbal thuggery in the 2008 election cycle include Steve Cohen (Tenn.), Virginia Foxx (N.C.), Charles Hahn (Calif.), Robert Wexler (Fla.), and Jill Morgenthaler (Ill.).
Kirkorian’s criminal lies about the Congresswoman and her campaign supporters are posted on the Internet at http://krikorianforcongress.com/genocide.php The Armenian American’s posting in substance falsely accuses Congresswoman Schmidt of bribery and Turkish Americans who have made campaign contributions for her of paying bribes, i.e., that she bargained for campaign contributions from Turkish Americans in exchange for a promise to take official actions in Congress in opposition to perennial "Armenian genocide" resolution in the House of Representatives: “Representative Jean Schmidt has taken $30,000 in blood money to deny the genocide of Christian Armenians by Muslim Turks.”
Contrary to the Krikorian's lies, there was no quid pro quo or any irregularity whatsoever in the campaign contributions for Congresswoman Schmidt. As is customary in political campaigns, contributors make financial contributions to candidates who support the policy positions of which they approve. In fact, Armenian Americans and their political action committees scrupulously confine their contributions to candidates who support or pledge to support “Armenian genocide” resolutions.
Congresswoman Schmidt’s opposition to the Armenian genocide resolution is readily explained by historical facts. Her conclusions accord with renowned Middle East scholar Bernard Lewis of Princeton University, who has been consulted by the White House under President George W. Bush, and others of comparable academic prestige.
The Congresswoman, based on her independent research does not believe the tragic events of World War I, in which both Armenians and Turks were killed in harrowing numbers, constituted genocide—an accusation that has never been proven in a court of law. She further maintains that the historical question is not appropriate for Congress to legislate.
The Turkish American Legal Defense Fund has written a letter to Attorney General Rogers urging a criminal investigation and prosecution of David Krikorian under Ohio campaign and false statement laws, Ohio Revised Code, section 3517.02 and section 2921.13(A)(2), respectively.
To paraphrase attorney Joseph Welch’s rebuke to Communist witch hunting Senator Joe McCarthy, have Armenian Americans no sense of decency, at long last? Have they left no sense of decency?
TALDF will oppose any assault from any quarter on the right of Turkish Americans to participate fully in the American political process, including voicing their opinions on issues impacting Turkish-American relations or otherwise.
***
Turkish American Legal Defense Fund - TALDF
1025 Connecticut Avenue, Suite 1000, NW Washington, DC 20036
Phone: 202-370-1399 ext.3,
Fax: 202-370-1398
Website:www.taldf.org
-----------------
4- Now, in the light of your ethnically discriminating argument that fundraisers in support of non-resident candidates is a terrible thing to be summarily attacked and insulted, especially it seem if they deny an unproven allegation of genocide, Adam Schiff has received more money than Hahn from non-resident supporters.
Are you going to “expose” those non-resident supporters, too?
Are you going to call those organizers “vile”, too?
Are you going to lecture Schiff and his non-resident supporters on ethics and/or proprieties , too?
If yes, when can I see you exposé on Schiff?
If no, will not that make you a hypocrite?
58. Ergun Kirlikovali says: November 4, 2008
Ooops, I forgot to sign my name in the last message. My apologies.
Ergun Kirlikovali
59. Gustavo Arellano says: November 4, 2008
Ergun: You are quite the comedian. You give a lame excuse for using "Crusader bias" in a previous commentary (your definition is correct in the lower-case version, but anyone with a mind knows that the upper case in the present context is usually used by Muslims when trashing Christians), then you try to spin your use of Speedy Gonzalez! I love Speedy as well, but when you started babbling about this not being Tijuana, that's when your lame attempt at sarcasm flopped. And now you're calling me "your" Speedy Gonzalez? HA!
Again: I have nothing against Turkish-Americans. I do have something against those Turkish-Americans (and others) who deny the Armenian genocide. And I called you vile, and will again, because of your writings, which I'll share with our readers in the coming weeks.
Regarding Jean Schmidt: Good luck with that. You Armenian genocide deniers need to get it out of your heads that opposition to your position is tantamount to anti-Turkish bias. In Schmidt's case (like Hahn's), I'd be curious to know why so many Turks gave money to her. Is it solely because she doesn't believe in the Armenian genocide? There very well might be another legitimate reason, but I wouldn't know. In your case, however, you organized the fundraiser for Hahn specifically because you don't like Schiff's stance on his resolution. It's your right to do that, and my right to write about it.
If Schiff's getting money from Orange County, I'd be interested in knowing. If those donors made vile statements like yours, I'd be interested in knowing. But there has to be an Orange County connection--otherwise, I'm not interested because that's not what I get paid for. And the fact is, Ergun, you and your pals take the cake for the moment.
By the way, you still haven't answered me: Why do you call the deaths of your countrymen during World War I a genocide when no court or tribunal has ruled as such?
60. AlertAmerican says: November 4, 2008
"otherwise, I'm not interested because that's not what I get paid for"
...what do you get paid for, slander? Or do you just do that for free ?
"...because of your writings, which I'll share with our readers in the coming weeks"
It will be interesting to see if you have something coherent and intelligent to say instead of just slandering your ideological opponents !
61. Gustavo Arellano says: November 4, 2008
For calling yourself AlertAmerican, you sure ain't alert--slander is spoken, libel is written. So not only do you deny the Armenian genocide, you're a fool, to boot. Must be fun to be you!
62. Erdal Atrek says: November 4, 2008
I personally do not believe the type of discussion I am seeing above is going to lead to any resolutions of the differences between Armenians and Turks. I am against the type of reporting I have seen, which takes the form of an unjustified and self-righteous attack, but I have already written about it.
Before I leave this page, I wanted to say a few words, which perhaps will make sense to some, but then again maybe not to others. In my humble opinion, Armenians and their supporters who are the most vocal about the alleged genocide are probably the ones least informed about the subject because they spend too much time attacking, but not enough learning. How many (no Turks please) can tell me what the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire was before World War I? You do have to give at least one non-Armenian reference. I will not tell you, since you will not believe me. Would you believe a Harvard professor who wrote in 1935? What about a famous encyclopedia or the French occupying forces? Unless Armenians and their supporters learn more about what they speak of, there can be no understanding between the two sides, and discussions such as the above can go on forever with increasing hostility. We Turks learn more because we are accused all the time, and are surprised that our accusers have not made the effort to step beyond tradition (and poet Peter Balakian's bad prose) in repeating their accusations. BTW, bringing up Orhan Pamuk has no relevance, since he has little, if any, real knowledge on this subject (I was classmates with his older brother).
63. Ergun Kirlikovalie says: November 4, 2008
Speedy, I will just list your contradictions, while I still reserve my rights to protect myself against libel (The fact that I am responding at all should not be construed as I accept your insults or am in anyway comfortable with it.)
1- To my Tijuana, you came back with Ankara a couple times.
2- “crusader bias” is what fuels your attitude: attack people whom you don’t know for history about which you have no idea. You are only repeating Armenian propaganda material, perhaps thinking you are safe with your job that way. (Remembering what happened to Douglas Frantz at LA Times recently, I cannot blame you, as it takes courage to fight consensus built on bias and bigotry. )
3- Why don’t you research the names of OC residents in Schiff’s donor lists, just like you did the names of Hahn’s Turkish-Americans? After all, you took it upon yourself to research our names like a fascist dictator in a banana republic and attack us publicly with the viciousness of a pit bull. Now, if you did the same thing the opposite direction, too, then I would think "This guy is just messing with people for ratings" and move on. But if you don't reserach Schiff’s OC donors, then you are a biased blogger who is out to hurt people's reputations and /or emotions. Can you see the gigantic hypocrisy into which you trapped yourself?
4- With the Turks of Balkans, we are kind of entering a personal field. My last name means a person from “Kirlikova”, name of a tiny village populated by Turks in the Ottoman Balkans. Do not bother looking it up in a map as the Greeks razed it to the ground in 1912 and wiped out the Turkish population in it. Under still mostly unknown circumstances (as nobody was left alive to ask) my father, as a one year old baby, found a place on the Ottoman train making its last scheduled run from Selanik (today Thessaloniki) to Istanbul, the capital.
All we know about his past is what was scribbled on piece of paper pinned on his tiny baby clothes: “Akif’s son Ratip. Born Kirlikova. 1911.” That’s it! No mom or dad, no brothers or sisters, no uncles or aunts, no neighbors or even acquaintances. Nothing… Nada… Zip… The Ottoman Empire took him in, placed him in an orphanage (which was already bursting at the seams with other children from Eastern Anatolia where their Turkish parents were similarly slaughtered by others: Armenian revolutionaries.) The Empire cared for him and educated him until 1923 when it was replaced by the modern Republic of Turkey. My father became a forest engineer and married my mom in 1939.
My mom’s family was destroyed by still others: Macedonians and Serbs, as they were in Skopje, Macedonia. My mother’s family was a bit luckier, if the term is proper, as a few members of her family survived after escaping with just the clothes on their backs. Together, they had eight children and I am one of the youngest of sons, born in 1952. In a way, I am my father’s voice… That helpless baby’s voice fighting against bigots like yoursels and Armenian falsifiers and other Turk-haters.
My story, though tragic, is not unique in Turkey. You can fly to Turkey tomorrow, talk to the first person on the street, and ask him what his last name means or where his grandparents came from and you will see the pain, suffering, and loss gushing out right there. There is no Turkish family untouched by the WWI devastation. After all, other people attacked our country (Russia, Britain, France, etc.) and some of our beloved neighbors joined the invading enemies (Armenians, Greeks, etc.) Turks were only defending their country. Three million Muslims, mostly Turks, lost their lives; half a million of them at the hands of Armenian revolutionaries. That’s three million out of about 15 million… That would like 60 million Americans dying in a war… Can you grasp that, Speedy?
Armenian engineered, provoked, and waged a civil war because
a) the Armenians thought Turks were finished and this was the Armenians’ moment: just deliver the lethal punch and share in the loot.
b) Armenians had tremendous support from Russia, England and France as well as U.S. Protestant missionaries who only reported Ottoman-Christian suffering in an embellished way and the New York Times published them unchecked, thank you, to stir up the anti-Turkish, pro-ally, pro-war, pro-WWI frenzy in this country, resulting in products like you who are jolted out of their socks to find out that there is , indeed, another side of the story to Turkish-Armenian conflict.
c) Armenian had territorial demands and this was the opportune time to achieve their aims by taking up arms against their own government.
d) Armenians were effective in terrorist attacks from 1882 to 1921; rebellions from 1890 to 1915; and treason from 1877 to 1915. They did not even need to hide their disloyalty, schemes, and aspirations.
e) Armenian irregulars had more guns and ammo than the Turkish civilians who were not conscripted to the Turkish armies due to age or health reasons. These Turkish villages, whose sons were defending their country at many fronts, were easy hunt for the Armenian revolutionaries. You could not tell anymore which Armenian was on the Ottoman side and which on the Russian side.
You see Speedy, I don’t have to learn these from Armenian propaganda brochures. This is my life story. Turks grieve their dead silently, without creating much fanfare and drama. But our dignified silence should never be interpreted as admission of guilt for some crime not committed. Human tragedy? Yes, on both sides. Pain, suffering, loss? Yes, on both sides. It was a terrible civil war, not genocide.
Loss numbers? Honestly? Armenian losses less than 300,000 according to Gurun or 200,000 according to Paris Peace Conference Report dated March 29, 1919. Muslim/Turkish losses 524,000 at the hands of Armenian revolutionaries. No matter how you slice it, Turkish losses much exceed the Armenian ones. Yet, my losses are ignored or dismissed just because I come from a Muslim and/or Turkish background.
I wrote before, but it didn’t connect with you: not all killings, not all resettlements, not all suffering are genocide. Genocide verdict can only be given by a competent tribunal. Do you believe in rule of law, Speedy? Then you can no longer dance around this issue: either produce a genocide verdict by a court of law like Nuremberg, or open your heart to the terrible human suffering of people who are different than you in appearance, culture, or religion. You are committing a great injustice to my grandparents who cannot be here to write these lines. I am doing it for them.
64. Anonymous says: November 4, 2008
http://www.poligazette.com/2008/08/05/money-votes-the-armenian-issue/
gustie, feel free to give up writing about this issue. others have done a much better and more complete job of it.
the article someone posted a link to above, references another article that focuses on PAC donations that make no sense from a political ideology point of view, but only if they are intended to purchase influence on this narrow issue that is of no significance to every day americans who are struggling to pay their mortgages while washington offers up wall street a $700B welfare package.
to the armenians: immigration to America is not an invitation to continue your tribal warfare from the safety of the these shores.
it is instead an opportunity to experience a unique brand of tolerance that allows multiple ethnic groups and people practising literally hundreds of religions to live together in peace. it is due to the lack of this concept that you claim you are here now, so stop trying to perpetuate it here.
and, in this country, when you accuse another of a crime, it is the right of the accused to deny your accusation and present a defense. this is one of the most fundamental basic rights belonging to all who are present within our sovereign borders, whether they are citizens or not--and even if they are legally here or not.
there are much more important issues at stake in this election than the pet issue for this special interest group.
so understand that for those of us dealing with current issues that portend financial disaster for the country which is currently involved in a $3 trillion war financed by china, petty "news" like this irritates.
65. Anonymous says: November 4, 2008
Don't buy into their diversionary tactics, Gustavo: Ergun and his buddies will stop at nothing to harass those of us who, like you, know that the Armenian genocide happened.
Anonymous says:November 4, 2008
Don't buy into their diversionary tactics, Gustavo: Ergun and his buddies will stop at nothing to harass those of us who, like you, know that the Armenian genocide happened.
Ergun Kirlikovali says:November 5, 2008
Speedy,
When are you going to research OC-donors of Schiff --like you did OC-donors of Hahn?
Did you research Armenian terrorists who threatened to explode a bomb in Disneynland Anaheim, Orange County, in 1981, to stop a Turkish folk dance group from performing?
I guess Armenian terrorism andOC-Armenian donors to Schiff are not interesting for you. It is more important to attack Turkish-Americans and easier to insult them.
Genocide verdict can only be given by a court. Either show us all the court verdict (like Nuremberg) and end this debate or open your heart and mind to to learn about the other side of the story, the other human suffering, the responsible opposing views, without insulting or intimidating the holders of those views or labeling them with denier labels.
shkegh-adana says:November 5, 2008
We are at a brighter day now with people like Barack Obama, Adam Schiff, and Gustavo Arellano out there. I have greater hope for humanity because of the likes of you! Keep on spreading goodness around. By exposing these lies and wounds around you, you will help them heal and make the world a healthier happier place for us all. Thanks again Gustavo and once again,
¡VIVA GUSTAVO ARELLANO, BARACK OBAMA y ADAM SCHIFF!
Gustavo Arellano says:November 5, 2008
Anon with the poligazette link: for someone who considers this petty news, I find it hilarious you've posted again and again--and always behind the comfort of no name.
Ergun: Go ahead and accuse me of bias and hypocrisy, if you must--I really don't care. My editor sure doesn't think so--and his is the only opinion that ultimately matters to me. My reporting and your words stand as testament to our respective characters, and the readers can decide who has more legitimacy. I do find it funny that you try to make the Turks out to be the victims of Armenians, though. Who reconstituted themselves as a country shortly after WWI? Who was invaded by the other to quash their sovereignty?
The fact is that there was an Armenian genocide, and all the hemming and hawing and denying by you and others won't change that. Turkey's official position is telling, and your smug dismissals of those Armenians who simply want an acknowledgment speaks volume about your character. And if you think my summation of you is because you're a Turk or Muslim, you are even more foolish than you seem.
Again: where is the court verdict labeling Turkish suffering a genocide? I've asked you this repeatedly, yet you don't cough up one. As for the Armenian side--the weight of human history and opinion--and Turkey's vile denial--says all.
# Ergun Kirlikovali says:November 5, 2008
GENOCIDE VERDICT ONLY BY A COMPETENT TRIBUNAL
Every time you are faced with a legitimate question, you fall back to the cozy warmth of your bias and bigotry.
When you felt the heat, all you could come up with was “Liar, liar… Pants on fire…”
Classy, Speedy, real classy.
At least some members of the AFATH community (Armenian Falsifiers and Turk Haters) throw in frequent quotes of the 1948 The United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide for a definition, you cannot even tell us what the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire was before WWI--like Dr. Atrek asked--quoting at least one non-Armenian, non-AFATH source.
Even those stealthy Armenian writers, though, fail to read the article 6 of the same convention which clearly sets out a methodology as to how that verdict of genocide shall be reached: via a competent tribunal. Such a tribunal, a la Nuremberg, was never convened and a genocide verdict was never given. How can then so many (Armenians and their sympathizers) benefit from a non-existent verdict for so long (since 1915) ?
Isn’t that what “lynching” is all about, Speedy?
Look up the definition. " ...to seize somebody believed to have committed a crime and put him or her to death immediately and without trial..."
The genocide verdict is not reserved for bloggers, columnists, activists, politicians, academicians, and others. It is reserved for legal experts of a competent tribunal as genocide is a legal term where the “intent” has to be proven. Do not underestimate or dismiss that tiny word, like so many others, overwhelmed with stories of pain and suffering of only one side, find it so irresistible to do.
INTENT MUST BE PROVEN
The whole controversy is surrounded around that one tiny word, intent, and Armenian propagandists and their allies know it well. That is why Armenians never dared to take Turkey to a competent tribunal since 1915 and chose to “fabricate” evidence instead.
Talât Pasha telegrams, for example, were forged to fill that gaping hole in their genocide allegation. Armenians falsified many other records after that.
The infamous Hitler quote which was proven to be bogus by Prof. Heath Lowry of Princeton (It is a good thing the US prosecutor refused to use as evidence that bogus document in Nuremberg trials; it was unsigned, undated, out of sequence, and stuck out like a sore thumb in a pile of otherwise neat and orderly Nazi documents.)
The American Ambassador Morgenthau, a rabid anti-Turk, is frequently used as a credible source. He posed as a career diplomat and a historian, but he was neither. He was a real estate agent and a developer from upstate New York who raised the most funds for the Wilson campaign in 1912 and was rewarded with an ambassadorial post by the president elect Wilson. Armenian falsifications go on and on.
ARMENIAN UPRISING AND TREASON
If the Armenian allegation of genocide ever goes to a competent tribunal one day in future, which it may yet, the intent will be the fulcrum around which the final verdict will hinge. Turkey is confident that if non-partisan, dispassionate scholars looked at the communications, they will quickly realized that the intent was to temporarily resettle (TERESET) the Ottoman-Armenians who overtly or covertly supported Armenian uprising and treason.
Langer, William L., Prof. of History, Harvard, in his book “The Diplomacy of Imperialism”, Alfred a. Knopf, New York (1960), p 157, was more thorough and fair than you in your lynching piece:
“… Revolutionary placards were being posted in the cities and there were not a few cases of the blackmailing of wealthy Armenians, who were forced to contribute to the cause. Europeans in Turkey were agreed that the immediate aim of the agitators was to incite disorder, bring about inhuman reprisals and so provoke the intervention of the powers. For that reason, it was said, they operated by preference in areas where the Armenians were in a hopeless minority, so that reprisals would be certain.
One of the revolutionaries told Dr. Hamlin, the founder of Robert College, that the Hunchak bands would ‘watch their opportunity to kill Turks and Kurds, set fire to their villages, and then make their escape into the mountains. The enraged Moslems will then rise, and fall upon the defenseless Armenians and slaughter them with such barbarity that Russia will enter in the name of humanity and Christian civilization and take possession’.
When the horrified missionary denounced the scheme as atrocious and infernal beyond anything ever known, he received this reply: ‘It appears so to you, no doubt; but we Armenians have determined to be free. Europe listened to the Bulgarian horrors and made Bulgaria free. She will listen to our cry when it goes up in the shrieks and blood of millions of women and children. We shall do it’…”
These findings are supported by another prominent scholar, a history professor at UCLA, Stanford J. Shaw (died in 2006), said in his book History Of The Ottoman Empire And modern Turkey , Cambridge University Press (1977), Volume II, page 315:
“…Armenians again flooded the czarist armies, and the czar returned to St. Petersburg confident that the day finally had come for him to reach Istanbul. Hostilities were opened by Russians, who pushed across the border on November 1, 1914, though the Ottomans stopped them and pushed them back a few days later….A subsequent Russian counter offensive in January caused the Ottoman army to scatter…and the way was prepared for a new Russian push into eastern Anatolia , to be accompanied by an open Armenian revolt against the sultan.
…Armenian leaders in Russia now declared their open support of the enemy and there seemed no other alternative. It would be impossible to determine which of the Armenians would remain loyal and which would follow the appeals of their leaders. As soon as the spring came, then, in mid-May 1915 orders were issued to evacuate the entire Armenian population from the provinces of Van, Bitlis, and Erzurum, to get them away from all areas where they might undermine the Ottoman campaigns against Russia or against the British in Egypt, with arrangements made to settle them in towns and camps in the Mosul area of Northern Iraq.
In addition, Armenians residing in the countryside (but not in the cities) of the Cilician districts as well as those of north Syria were to be sent to central Syria for the same reason. Specific instructions were issued for the army to protect the Armenians against nomadic attacks and to provide them with sufficient food and other supplies to meet their needs during the march and after they were settled. Warnings were sent to the Ottoman military commanders to make certain that neither the Kurds nor any other Muslims used the situation to gain vengeance for the long years of Armenian terrorism. The Armenians were to be protected and cared for until they returned to their homes after the war…”
HISTORIANS SPEAK OUT
69 other historians, scholars, and other experts on this issue, representing top American universities and colleges in this field, have signed a statement addressed to congress and published it in New York Times and Washington Post on May 19, 1985, supporting Lange’s and Shaw’s findings, saying:
“… The undersigned American academicians who specialize in Turkish, Ottoman and Middle Eastern Studies are concerned that the current language embodied in House Joint Resolution 192 is misleading and/or inaccurate in several respects. ..
(W)e respectfully take exception to that portion of the text which singles out for special recognition: ‘. . . the one and one half million people of Armenian ancestry who were victims of genocide perpetrated in Turkey between 1915 and 1923 . . ..’
Our reservations focus on the use of the words ‘Turkey’ and ‘genocide’ and may be summarized as follows:
From the fourteenth century until 1922, the area currently known as Turkey, or more correctly, the Republic of Turkey, was part of the territory encompassing the multinational, multi-religious state known as the Ottoman Empire.
It is wrong to equate the Ottoman Empire with the Republic of Turkey in the same way that it is wrong to equate the Hapsburg Empire with the Republic of Austria. The Ottoman Empire, which was brought to an end in 1922, by the successful conclusion of the Turkish Revolution which established the present day Republic of Turkey in 1923, incorporated lands and people which today account for more than twenty-five distinct countries in Southeastern Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East, only one of which is the Republic of Turkey. The Republic of Turkey bears no responsibility for any events which occurred in Ottoman times, yet by naming ‘Turkey’ in the Resolution, its authors have implicitly labeled it as guilty of ‘genocide’ it charges transpired between 1915 and 1923;
As for the charge of ‘genocide,’ no signatory of this statement wishes to minimize the scope of Armenian suffering. We are likewise cognizant that it cannot be viewed as separate from the suffering experienced by the Muslim inhabitants of the region.
The weight of evidence so far uncovered points in the direct of serious inter communal warfare (perpetrated by Muslim and Christian irregular forces), complicated by disease, famine, suffering and massacres in Anatolia and adjoining areas during the First World War. Indeed, throughout the years in question, the region was the scene of more or less continuous warfare, not unlike the tragedy which has gone on in Lebanon for the past decade. The resulting death toll among both Muslim and Christian communities of the region was immense.
But much more remains to be discovered before historians will be able to sort out precisely responsibility between warring and innocent, and to identify the causes for the events which resulted in the death or removal of large numbers of the eastern Anatolian population, Christian and Muslim alike.
Statesmen and politicians make history, and scholars write it. For this process to work scholars must be given access to the written records of the statesmen and politicians of the past. To date, the relevant archives in the Soviet Union, Syria, Bulgaria and Turkey all remain, for the most part, closed to dispassionate historians. Until they become available, the history of the Ottoman Empire in the period encompassed by H.J. Res. 192 (1915-1923) cannot be adequately known.
We believe that the proper position for the United States Congress to take on this and related issues is to encourage full and open access to all historical archives and not to make charges on historical events before they are fully understood. Such charges as those contained H.J. Res. 192 would inevitably reflect unjustly upon the people of Turkey and perhaps set back irreparably progress historians are just now beginning to achieve in understanding these tragic events.
As the above comments illustrate, the history of the Ottoman-Armenians is much debated among scholars… By passing the resolution Congress will be attempting to determine by legislation which side of the historical question is correct. Such a resolution, based on historically questionable assumptions, can only damage the cause of honest historical inquiry, and damage the credibility of the American legislative process…”
If the scholarship above does not satisfy you, perhaps you would like to hear from the horse’s mouth.
Look how Boghos Nubar, leader of the Armenian delegation at Paris Peace Conference, in a letter to the Times of London, published on January 30, 1919, begs the allies at Paris conference at the end of World War I, urging them to reward the Armenians for their service:
“…The Armenians have been, since the beginning of the war, de facto belligerents - since they fought alongside the Allies on all fronts - in Palestine and Syria, where the Armenian volunteers, recruited by the Armenian National Delegation at the request of the French government, made up more than half of the French contingent. In the Caucasus, where, without mentioning the 150,000 Armenians in the Imperial Russian Army, more than 40,000 of their volunteers offered resistance to the Turkish Armies.”
What genocide are you talking about? This is war… Plain, simple…and ugly… As all wars are…
You say you reviewed the Armenian evidence and you believe it. You simply fall for the same mistake many other scholars usually do: you use the pro-Armenian, partisan sources, all of which take wartime propaganda and bias produced by Armenian nationalists, clergy, and their Western supporters at face value and regurgitate them.
Look what another historian, Guenter Lewy, who also reviewed existing Armenian evidence, says in his article titled Revisiting the Armenian Genocide published in Fall 2005 edition of Middle East Quarterly :
“…Most of those who maintain that Armenian deaths were premeditated and so constitute genocide base their argument on three pillars: the actions of Turkish military courts of 1919-20,…, the role of the so-called “Special Organization” accused of carrying out the massacres, and the Memoirs of Naim Bey which contain alleged telegrams of Interior Minister Talât Pasha…. Yet when these events and the sources describing them are subjected to careful examination, they provide at most a shaky foundation from which to claim, let alone conclude, that the deaths of Armenians were premeditated….”
ETHOCIDE, NOT GENOCIDE
Based on this, isn’t it a bit dishonest to present a complex, contested, and clearly unresolved historical event as “settled history” to unsuspecting masses? Don’t you think you should perhaps qualify your views as those of the Armenian camp?
It is because of these considerations, I have coined the term “ETHOCIDE” back in 2003, a brief definition of which is “extermination of ethics via malicious mass deception for political and/or other benefits”.
Ergun Kirlikovali
Son of Turkish survivors from both paternal and maternal sides
http://www.turkla.com
# Anonymous says:November 5, 2008
"Anon with the poligazette link: ... I find it hilarious you've posted again and again--and always behind the comfort of no name."
What's your point? That you can't answer the questions I asked you?
Well, how about this one, what academic works have you read on this subject that allows you to represent yourself as "all-knowing"? Can you list even one?
I find it speaks volumes about your character to published biased rubbish about an issue you clearly haven't researched and don't intend to learn anything about.
"Again: where is the court verdict labeling Turkish suffering a genocide? I've asked you this repeatedly, yet you don't cough up one. As for the Armenian side--the weight of human history and opinion--and Turkey's vile denial--says all."
I find it ironic that you would so cavalierly accept that a crime against humanity occurred when the alleged victim conceals its archival documents concerning this issue and there has been no due process or verdict in a court of law.
How so very un-American of you.
You label as vile the refusal to accept guilt for a crime which has never been proven, while glibly dismissing the suffering of others and not even bothering to inquire to learn more about that which you have never even heard before. Do you not know that a defense is one of the guarantees of every civilized jurisprudence?
Who is vile here other than you?
The real reason for my repeated posts Gustavo is this.
Your immigrant grandfather came to this country for a better life under a Constitution which granted him and now you rights, opportunities and guarantees not available in his homeland.
And, what do you do?
You spew forth venom and hatred toward citizens of this country who dare to exercise rights granted to them under that same Constitution that your immigrant grandparent, and as I understand one originally illegal immigrant parent, came here to enjoy.
Not only that, your venom is reserved only for those from a specific nation of origin-- that, my friend, is discrimination.
Then, you bellow forth hollow and insincere offense when someone refers to you as Speedy.
Meanwhile, you write a column called "Ask a Mexican" and imprint pictures of the caricature of a Mexican wearing a sombrero and chihuahuas on your book covers. So who is stereotyping Mexicans here?
I find it offensive, arrogant and an affront that you operate under the protection of the freedoms granted you under the U.S. and California state Constitutions WHILE you debase, demean and try to intimidate others who do the same on an issue upon which you have displayed nothing but ignorance.
But please, since you seem to enjoy your own hypocrisy so much, do carry on.
No one could possibly destroy any credibility you might have enjoyed before this piece as well as you have.
Ergun Kirlikovali says: November 6, 2008
BOGHOS NUBAR PASHA LETTER TO THE TIMES OF LONDON DOCUMENTS ARMENIAN TREASON
Boghos Nubar Pasha, the leader of the Armenian delegation at the Paris Peace Conference after World War I, reveals in his letter dated 27 January 1919 to The Times of London, that it was the Armenian support for the allied war effort (read: treason) which led to the TERESET (temporary relocation not extermination) of those Armenians by the Ottoman authorities. Nubar lists how many thousand Armenian volunteers fought their fellow Ottoman citizens on the side of the invader, the Allies.
Here is a smoking gun, one of many, that proves beyond a shadow of doubt, that Armenians were not innocent , unarmed, non-combatant victims, as portrayed, but well armed, trained, motivated combatants..
Let’s read:
BOGHOS NUBAR PASHA TO THE TIMES OF LONDON
To the Editor of the Times,
Sir, the name of Armenia is not on the list of the nations admitted to the Peace Conference. Our sorrow and our disappointment are deep beyond expression. Armenians naturally expected their demand for admission to the Conference to be conceded, after all they had done for the common cause.
The unspeakable suffering and the dreadful losses that have befallen the Armenians by reason of their faithfulness to the Allies are now fully known. But I must emphasize the fact unhappily known to few, that ever since the beginning of the war the Armenians fought by the side of the Allies on all fronts. Adding our losses in the field to the greater losses through massacres and deportations, we find that over a million out of a total Armenian population of four million and a half have lost their lives in and through the war. Armenia's tribute to death is thus undoubtedly heavier in proportion than that of any other belligerent nation. For the Armenians have been belligerents de facto, since they indignantly refused to side with Turkey.
Our volunteers fought in the French "Legion Entrangere" and covered themselves with glory. In the Legion d'Orient they numbered over 5,000, and made up more than half the French contingent in Syria and Palestine, which took part in the decisive victory of General Allenby.
In the Caucasus, without mentioning the 150,000 Armenians in the Russian armies, about 50,000 Armenian volunteers under Andranik, Nazarbekoff, and others not only fought for four years for the cause of the Entente, but after the breakdown of Russia they were the only forces in the Caucasus to resist the advance of the Turks, whom they held in check until the armistice was signed. Thus they helped the British forces in Mesopotamia by hindering the Germano-Turks from sending their troops elsewhere.
These services have been acknowledged by the Allied Governments, as Lord Robert Cecil recognized in the House of Commons.
In virtue of all these considerations the Armenian National Delegation asked that the Armenian nation should be recognized as a belligerent.
Had the recognition been granted, we should now have been admitted, ipso facto, to the Conference, to which even transatlantic States have found access, though having merely broken off diplomatic relations with Germany, without the least sacrifice on their part.
At the moment when the fate of Armenia is being decided at the Peace Conference, it is my duty, as the head of the National Delegation which has no tribute from which its voice can resound, to state once again, in the columns of The Times, the important part played by the Armenians in this frightful war. I wish strongly to urge that the Armenians, having of their own free will cast their lot with the champions of right and justice, the victory of the Allies over their common enemies has secured to them a right to independence.
Believe me, sir, yours very truthfully,
Boghos Nubar
Paris, January 27, 1919
Now, I ask again, does any of this sound like a genocide to any open-minded truth-seeker?
OCWeekly
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