By Michael Gleeson, 03/11/09
Rep. Adam Schiff (D-Calif.) is poised to reintroduce a highly controversial . . resolution that seeks to condemn the Armenian “genocide” of 1915-1917.
The introduction of the measure, expected to happen within a month, will reignite a fierce debate in Congress.
Schiff’s renewed push comes in the wake of Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton’s recent visit to Turkey and President Obama’s planned trip there next month.
Turkey has lobbied intensely against Schiff’s resolution, disputing the characterization of the killings of Armenians more than 90 years ago as a “genocide.”
Both Clinton and Obama have previously indicated support for Schiff’s companion measure, sponsored by Sen. Dick Durbin (D-Ill.).
Turkey Foreign Minister Ali Babacan expressed concern last weekend that Obama would urge Congress to label the massacre as a genocide, pointing out the president has made that promise five times.
Babacan urged the U.S. “not to interfere in the dispute.”
House Democratic leaders last Congress vowed to vote on the Schiff measure, but after the Bush administration rallied against it on national-security grounds, the resolution never made it to the floor.
As the debate heated up, 25 House lawmakers who initially co-sponsored Schiff’s measure formally withdrew their support.
President Bush, along with many lawmakers, said that labeling the event a genocide would harm American relations with Turkey, which has provided some support to the U.S. in the war in Iraq.
There is little agreement between the Turks and the Armenians on what actually happened in 1915. What the two sides can agree on is this: Starting in 1915, under the rule of the Ottoman Empire — not modern-day Turkey — the Ottomans killed Armenians. The reasons for the killings, as well as the number of people who died, are all hotly contested questions. Schiff’s measure claims that 1.5 million Armenians perished.
Turkey, a key U.S. ally, has hired powerful lobbying firms to push its case to lawmakers.
Interest groups aligned with Turkey, including the Turkish American Legal Defense Fund, argue that what Congress is engaged in is revisionist history, a matter not fit for the legislature.
Bruce Fein, an attorney for the Turkish American Legal Defense Fund, claims that the question of whether there was a genocide should be decided by scholars, not members of Congress: “If you ask 80 to 90 percent of the people in Congress to explain to you the details of what happened, they would not be able to. And these are the people who are going to decide whether what happened was genocide?”
Rep. Robert Wexler (D-Fla.), a member of the Turkish Caucus and opponent of the Schiff’s resolution, said, “The critical and longstanding relationship between the United States and Turkey is as essential as ever.”
Wexler added, “We all deeply mourn and pay respect to the horrific tragedy and loss of life that occurred at the beginning of the 20th century, but we must not compromise the safety and security of our troops abroad today.”
Another opponent of the Schiff resolution, Rep. Eddie Bernice Johnson (D-Texas), said that she does not acknowledge that there was a genocide.
Bernice Johnson, who circulated a Feb. 25 “Dear Colleague” letter about Schiff’s measure, was asked, “Do you acknowledge that there was a genocide?”
Bernice Johnson initially responded, “I don’t acknowledge, I was not around.”
Pressed further on whether she acknowledges the genocide, Bernice Johnson said, “No, I don’t.”
Reacting to Bernice Johnson’s statements, Aram Hamparian, executive director of the Armenian National Committee on America, said, “I am saddened to hear that a member of Congress would say this.”
The International Association of Genocide Scholars, an organization that studies genocide in North America and Europe, said in an open letter dated June 15, 2005, that “there may be differing interpretations of genocide — how and why the Armenian genocide happened, but to deny its factual and moral reality as genocide is not to engage in scholarship but in propaganda.”
Leading the charge for the recognition of the genocide is Schiff, who represents one of the largest Armenian-American communities in the U.S. He argues that moving forward with this resolution is essential to restoring America’s moral credibility.
“We are trying to stop genocide in Darfur. We are trying to prevent other genocides from happening in the future, and we undermine our credibility and leadership on this issue when we show an unwillingness to recognize genocides that have taken place for the mere reason that it would offend an ally,” Schiff said.
Schiff said that not recognizing all instances of genocide opens the U.S. up to the argument that “we will only recognize genocide when it is being perpetrated by a weak nation like the Sudan.”
He added that he is lobbying the Obama administration to back his resolution.
Beyond the International Association of Genocide Scholars, numerous other groups and organizations have also passed resolutions acknowledging the Armenian genocide, including the European Parliament, 20 national governments and 42 state governments.
Comments
The Hill welcomes comment from anyone and will almost always post it whether it is favorable or critical, as long as it is substantive and advances debate.
1. There is no real "debate" in Congress. Polls held for congressmembers every year show that over 60% of congressmembers openly support recognition of the Armenian Genocide, also known as the Armenian Holocaust. It is Turkish and Jewish lobbying that prevents recognition every year. We must stop these inhuman efforts and accept the tragedy for what it was, much like we have accepted on numerous occasions the Jewish Holocaust. Turkey must be forced, as the successor of the Ottoman Empire, to stand up for what happened for the near 2 million people that suffered. Our former ambassadors like Henry Morgantheau in 1915 have spoken of "the atrocities committed by the Turks" and we must echo their voices in protest of genocide denial by the Republic of Turkey.
Comment by Jack Haroutun — March 11, 2009
2. As Americans, we owe it to ourselves and the world to live up to our values of truth and justice, not down to the level of a foreign government's undisguised use of threats to impose a gag-rule on U.S. human rights policy.
Comment by Aram Hamparian — March 11, 2009
3. Shame on Congresswomen Bernice Johnson for her comments on such a crime as genocide!
Was Rep Bernice "around" as Jewish Holocaust happened? If the answer is a "Yes", What did Rep. Bernice by NAZIS?
Comment by ED — March 11, 2009
4. As far as international scholarship goes, I think that unbiased and critical ascertainment of all that there is to read between 1915 and now leans in favor of the Schiff bill and not against it. Really, there are 3 camps at presnet..the turkish state and its bought minions, the US contingent still hanging onto the notions of turkey as strategic ally in the war on terror, and everyone else. The latter category is inclusive of all individuals who have done careful and critical analysis on the subject. I can cite sources but of course the turks will either attempt to bully-discredit or assassinate each of them ..so lets just leave the scholarship up to _YOU_ the reader.
Comment by Smirny Pop and the Spiders — March 12, 2009
5. If the Armenian Genocide is not properly recognized by our government, then our future history books will record our weakness. Worse, our government would have helped create a blueprint for genocide denials.
Comment by dany beylerian — March 12, 2009
6. SHAME on you Michael Gleeson for putting the word genocide in quotes and trying to deny historical truth with this feable specimen of an article.
Perhaps by your logic, we should do the same and use quotes for the Jewish 'Holocaust' or the Darfur 'Genocide'?
Comment by Ellinaras — March 12, 2009
7. Our Congress should first acknowledge our own personal genocides first! Over 30 million native people were killed in one way or another to make room for our particular European "progress". Let's get our own country in order before we start judging the genocides of other countries.
Comment by HLOF — March 12, 2009
8. Yeah, let's pass this resolution! Why not purposefully piss off someone who borders the country we are currently occupying. What could go wrong?
Great idea people.
Were a lot of Armenians killed? Yeah. Can we do anything about it? If you are one who believes that passing resolutions whose fallout will have nothing but negative effects, perhaps. Trying to somehow atone for disasters in history through legislative posturing is moronic.
Comment by David Ortiz — March 12, 2009
9. This resolution has nothing to do with Turkey. It's about the Ottoman Empire, the facts of the genocide, and the American response. Turkey should not be upset. The argument that this will hurt the war in Iraq is ludicrous. Turkey was the one to deny the US a northern front into Iraq in 2003. Turkey still invaded Iraq to deal with the Kurds in 2007/2008 after H. Res. 106 was tabled. The Turks are goign to do whatever they want,
Comment by Carl Stevens — March 12, 2009
10. As a Ph.D student studying on the late Ottoman Empire, this historical issue is quite controversial.
A background for all of you:
With the creation of two revolutionary Armenian committees, the Hinchag Committee formed in Geneva, Switzerland in 1887, and the Dashnag Committee, established in Tbilisi, Georgia in 1890, that Armenian national aspirations began.
Both the Hinchags and Dashnags adopted terror as a primary tactic in their struggle, the ultimate aim of which was the “liberation” of the Armenian “homeland” of eastern Anatolia from the Ottoman rule. They tried to alter the demographic structure of certain regions by massacring and harassing the Turks, Kurds and other Muslims in these areas.
The Great Powers of those days began to regard the Armenians as an important instrument that could be manipulated against the Ottoman Empire. These powers promised the Armenians a purely ethnic Armenian state in Eastern Anatolia where paradoxically they constituted only a minority.
The start of World War I and the entry of the Ottoman State into the war against the Allied Powers were seen as a great opportunity by the extremist Armenians. They revolted against the Ottoman Government and collaborated with the invading Russian Armies and other foreign forces, launching attacks on the Ottoman army and Muslim civilians.
The Ottoman Government, facing enormous internal and external threats caused by the Armenians, in May 1915, resorted to a defensive measure, which any country in a similar situation would not hesitate to take. It adopted the Relocation Law to transfer Armenians who lived in areas affected by war to southern provinces of the Ottoman State.
The Ottoman Government instructed the local authorities to take the necessary security measures for the orderly relocation of the Armenians.
Despite these measures, scarcity of food and other means in the days of war, severe weather conditions, and outbreak of epidemic diseases like typhus, affecting the population in general, had also led to the increase in loss of human lives. Some members of the Ottoman Army has also engaged in a kind of revenge agaist the Armenians.
There is no question that the heavy toll in human lives during that period was a dark chapter in the common history of the Turks and the Armenians. In fact, it was an era in which all the people of Anatolia shared the same fate. 3 million people, mostly civilian Muslims, died in Anatolia during World War I. Those who perished in the hands of Armenian bands reached 524, 000, between the years 1914 through 1922.
US Congress should stay away from this dispute. You guys are not historians…
Comment by Jane Shlimon — March 12, 2009
11. How very disappointing that EBJ would circulate such a Dear Colleague letter - it is almost tantamount to Holocaust denial.
FYI, she jointed 167 other members of the 110th Congress to co-sponsor legislation that called on the government of Japan to apologize for the use of "comfort women" during WWII. A bill that passed the House on voice vote, despite the objections and lobbying efforts of the Japanese gov't for the same reasons that Turkey objects to the Armenian Genocide resolution.
Lastly, what kind of message is the US sending to the world when we bow to the bulling of one country. Ultimately, that's why this bill was pulled in the past - Turkey's threat to cut off access to their Iraq border. A serious threat, no doubt, but is that good foreign policy on our part? I hope the EU is paying attention.
Comment by Anon — March 12, 2009
12. The International Association of Genocide Scholars has unambiguously stated that what happened to the Armenians was genocide. They have called on the Congress to pass this resolution and aptly pointed out that the only ones that dispute the facts are the Turkish government and it's high priced lobbyists. Only those trying to distort the facts say "you guys are not historians…" or "Congress should not legislate history." Again, Congress is merely reciting facts that are in our National Archives and those of Turkey's allies during WWI, and honoring the American response to the Armenian Genocide. It's time for Congress to stop being bullied by Turkey and to do what's right!
Comment by Carl Stevens — March 12, 2009
13. Nice to see the Hill presenting a nice objective piece on it (sarcasm) - perhaps next time the Hill should cover why the US does not just man up and tell Turkey to deal with its own history instead of placating a junior ally that needs the US more than the US needs them… those recent stories about Kuwait and Jordan as alternate withdrawal routes from Iraq were quite interesting - maybe the US government has indeed grown tired of Turkish threats?
Comment by Billy — March 12, 2009
14. I find it interesting the exact words alleged PhD student "Jane Shlimon" (comment 10) used were also used a year ago by someone named Steve Douglas Jr. on the blog comment section linked here:
thegenocideblog.wordpress.com/2008/04/18/schwarzenagger-proclaims-april-20th-27-for-armenians/
They give an identical (word-for-word in many areas) explanation of what happened, which is quite coincidental since based on their names they can't be the same person. This is clearly nothing more than a propaganda job of people claiming to get their dubious ideas from their own historical knowledge when in fact they are copy-pasting from the official Turkish government line. Anyone can pretend to have expertise on a blog so we must be careful about posers like "Jane Shlimon".
That goes for Congresswoman Johnson as well. Her simplistic answers of I don't know I wasn't there followed by flatly denying the genocide without any further comment gives the apperances she has no idea what she's actually talking about. Of course it is possible that she only has this opinion because her chief of staff is Turkish, which is completely her right, but it is disappointing that she didn't apparently read anything on the actual history that'd allow her to give substantive answers on her opinion. Her complete lack of knowledge on it is what likely led her to confuse the debate- which is not whether the genocide happened or not (which only Turkey denies) but whether the U.S. should recognize it. This is likely what led her to misunderstand the debate and go to the appalling step of actually denying the genocide took place (mainly because she didn't see it, I wonder if she personally witnessed the Holocaust or slavery?), something which even the bill's most vocal opponents in Congress have been disinclined to do.
Comment by Paul — March 12, 2009
15. The Ottoman, now Turkish Government committed this genocide and our government is enabling the genocide denial.
Genocide denial is a part of the Armenian genocide itself.
Let's not let the Government of Turkey and the US Government's enabling of genocide denial continue.
If the US government did the right thing years ago this would be a non-issue already and possibly head off genocides of today. Other Countries see the hypocracy and denial campaigns by Turkey and US as an enablers.
We owe it to the integrity of our Country, and setting an example to human rights.
It is in our national interest to show others in the International Community that the US is not a Hypocrate anymore on this issue, and that we do not enable genocide denial.
Comment by Rich — March 12, 2009
16. Also, there is a reason why Jane Shlimon is a student, because She has a lot to learn.
Comment by Rich — March 12, 2009
17. As a German who grew up studying the Holocaust, I cannot understand how several commentators could use the word "Holocaust" to describe what happened to Ottoman Armenians in 1915. To those of you who did not study the Holocaust, I would like to offer its definition. It is one of the biggest human catastrophes that occurred under the Nazi Rule between 1939-45 and resulted in the death of 6 million of European Jews.
By the way, as their extermination finally ended in 1945, the death toll was 6 million. As the German Chancellor Willy Brandt went down on his knee in front of the Holocaust Memorial in Berlin, the death toll was pronounced again as 6 million. As I write these sentences in 2009, the number of European Jews who died tragically under Hitler’s dictatorship is 6 million whereas the Ottoman Armenian death toll is being continuously inflated. In the beginning of the 1920s, it was pronounced in three digit numbers. These were the years when the hope for an independent Armenian state was the highest. In order to justify this self-determination under Wilson’s principles, the most effective tool would be proving high numbers of ethnic population in a specific region. As this hope faded away, the figures of the Armenian death toll increased to seven digit numbers, nowadays commonly claimed to be 1,5 million.
Also, there has been an inflation in the time period of the "genocide". Initially, it was in 1915. Then, the years it took place changed to 1915-1917. Finally, many Armenian-Americans currently claim that the Armenian genocide took place during eight years, from 1915-23. (The House Speaker Nancy Pelosi also follows this path).
Now as a young person who still wants to believe in the brother\sisterhood of all nations on the earth, I ask all of you to please stop this inflationary rhetoric, respect also Ottoman-Muslim deaths while mourning for Ottoman-Armenian deaths and stop comparing what happened in the war-torn Ottoman Empire of 1915 to what happened to 6 million of European Jews during the Holocaust, which is unique.
Comment by Sonja — March 12, 2009
18. "Yes, a large number of Western students of Ottoman history reject the appropriateness of the genocide label for the tragic fate of the Armenian community in Ottoman Turkey. This list includes distinguished scholars such as Roderic Davison, J.C. Hurewitz, Bernard Lewis, and Andrew Mango. Ignoring this formidable array of learned opinion, most Armenians and their supporters among so-called genocide scholars assert with superb arrogance that the Armenian genocide is an incontrovertible historical fact, similar to the Jewish Holocaust, which would be denied only by lackeys of the Turkish government."
Guenter Lewy, professor emeritus of Political Science at Massachusetts Universiy (Amherst), "The Middle East Quarterly", Winter 2006.
Comment by Lucrece — March 12, 2009
19. A partial list of non-Turkish who reject the "gencoide" thesis, or consider the question a controversial:
Batkay, William, Associate Professor of Political Science, Montclair State University;
Childs, Timothy (dec.), former Professor of Ottoman History, Johns Hopkins University;
Courbage, Youssef, Researcher, National Institute of Demographic Studies, Paris France.
Cuthell, David C., Executive Director of the Institute of Turkish Studies and Associate Professor of International and Public Affairs, Columbia University;
Davison, Roderic (dec.), former Professor of Ottoman and Turkish history, George Washington University;
Duben, Alan, Professor of History, Istanbul Bilgi University;
Dumont, Paul, Chairman of Turcology Department, March Bloch University, Strasbourg, France;
Dunér, Bertil, former Senior Researcher, The Swedish Institute of International Affairs, Stockholm, Sweden;
Dyer, Gwynne, Ph.D. in Ottoman Military history and Journalist;
Erickson, Edward J., researcher at Birmingham University, Retired Lieutenant-Colonel (U.S. Army);
Fargues, Philippe, Senior Research, National Institute of Demographic Studies, Paris, France;
Fromkin, David, Professor of International Relations, History, and Law, Boston University;
Georgeon, François, Senior researcher, (CNRS) National Center for Scientific Research, Paris, France;
Gunter, Michael M., Professor of Political Science, Tennessee Technical University;
Hurewitz, Jacob Coleman (dec.), former Professor of Middle Eastern Politics, Columbia University;
Jäckel, Eberhard, Professor Emeritus of Modern World History, Stuttgart University;
Levy, Avigdor, Professor of Near Eastern and Judaic Studies, Brandeis University;
Lewis, Bernard, Professor Emeritus of Middle Eastern History, Princeton University;
Lewy, Guenter, Professor Emeritus of Middle Eastern History, Massachusetts University;
Lowry, Heath, M. Kemal Ataturk Professor of Ottoman and Modern Turkish Studies, Princeton University;
Mango, Andrew, Author, Historian and Researcher, University of London;
Mantran, Robert, (dec.) Former Professor of Turcology, University of Aix-Marseille, France;
McCarthy, Justin, Professor of History, University of Louisville;
Nora, Pierre, former Professor of Contemporary History, The School of High Studies in Social Sciences (EHESS, Paris), Member of the French academy, Paris, France;
Oberling, Pierre, Professor of Ethonology, Hunter College, CUNY;
Rémond René (dec.), former president, The National Foundation of Political Sciences, Paris;
Roux, Jean-Paul, Former Director of Research (CNRS), National Center for Scientific Research , Paris, France;
Rustow, Dunkwart A. (dec.), former Distinguished Professor of History, CUNY Graduate School;
Salt, Jeremy, Visiting Associate Professor, Bilkent University;
Shaw, Stanford J. (dec.), former Professor of Ottoman and Turkish History, UCLA;
Stone, Norman, Professor of International Relations, Bilkent University;
Strachan, Hew, Professor of Contemporary History, Oxford University;
Veinstein, Gilles, Professor of Turkish and Ottoman History, Collège de France;
Wieviorka, Annette, Senior Researcher (CNRS), National Center for Scientific Research, Paris, France;
Williams, Brian, Associate Professor of History, University of Massachusetts at Dartmouth;
Yapp, Malcolm E., Professor Emeritus of History, University of London, School of Oriental and African Studies;
Zarcone, Thierry, Senior Researcher in Turkish history (CNRS), National Center for Scientific Research, Paris, France.
Zeidner, Robert F., Ph.D. in Ottoman History, University of Utah.
Comment by Lucrece — March 12, 2009
20. "whether the genocide happened or not (which only Turkey denies)"
The "genocide" resolutions were rejected by a huge majority in Israelian, Danish, Bulgarian and Swedish Parliaments, during the years 2007 and 2008. The Spanish parliamnent did not even discuss it, despite the effort of nationalist Armenians.
In France, the "genocide" resolution was voted in the National Assembly during the night, by around 50 members, including 40 lawmakers who are elected thanks to the nationalist Armenian associations. The Senators refused initially to vote, but tey were defamed, insulted, an almost physically threatened, in 2000.
In countries like Italia, Swiss and Belgium, the "genocide" resolution was voted only by one Chamber, and not supported by the governement.
Comment by Lucrece — March 12, 2009
21. Why not do something about Darfur if you care about massacres and genocides, instead of arguing about what may or may not have happened 100 years ago? US will only be more "hypocrite" by attempting to legislate history instead of effecting it by current policy.
Comment by Hyre — March 12, 2009
22. "The International Association of Genocide Scholars has unambiguously stated that what happened to the Armenians was genocide."
The IAGS? Ah ah ah ah!
"I am less than impressed by the unanimous vote of the International Association of Genocide Scholars that the Armenian case 'was one of the major genocides of the modern era.' The great majority of these self-proclaimed experts on Ottoman history have never set foot in an archive or done any other original research on the subject in question."
Guenter Lewy, "Commentary", February 2006.
Comment by Lucrece — March 12, 2009
23. The "genocide" claims are:
— A thesis highly critized by the majority of historians specialist of Ottoman history, like Bernard Lewis, and authors who worked about the 1915-1916 events, like Guenter Lewy;
— A one-sided thesis, who forgott the massacres perpetrated by Armenian gangs, especially between 1914 and 1922 (see the archeological evidence of it: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Acsn-De8vCQ);
— A tool of Russia for divide NATO and European Union;
— A way for nationalist Armenian parties (Dashnak, Hunchak, Ramkavar) to control millions of peoples, who should not be called "Armenians", but Americans, Frenchs or Australians;
— A way of demonization of the whole Turkish people, called "Turco-Mongol killers" by many Armenian activists.
Comment by Lucrece — March 12, 2009
24. The Blois appeal:
"Concerned about the retrospective moralization of history and intellectual censure, we call for the mobilization of European historians and for the wisdom of politicians. History must not be a slave to contemporary politics nor can it be written on the command of competing memories. In a free state, no political authority has the right to define historical truth and to restrain the freedom of the historian with the threat of penal sanctions. We call on historians to marshal their forces within each of their countries and to create structures similar to our own, and, for the time being, to individually sign the present appeal, to put a stop to this movement toward laws aimed at controlling history memory. We ask government authorities to recognize that, while they are responsible for the maintenance of the collective memory, they must not establish, by law and for the past, an official truth whose legal application can carry serious consequences for the profession of history and for intellectual liberty in general. In a democracy, liberty for history is liberty for all."
www.lph-asso.fr/actualites/42.html
Comment by Lucrece — March 12, 2009
25. Loss of human life and property, for any reason, is a tragedy.
Turkish Americans are very sad and mindful of all people whose ancestors lost their lives and property and who had to migrate from their homelands to other lands to ensure their safety and well being, when the Ottoman Empire disintegrated into 30 independent nations during and immediately after the First World War (1914-1926).
Turkey is one of the countries that emerged after the downfall of the Ottoman Empire. Many of our ancestors who used to live in the Ottoman lands outside current Turkish boundaries had to immigrate to the Turkish Republic, because of ethnic, economic, religious and safety reasons. Many non-Muslims and non-Turks, who lived in Anatolia, immigrated to other lands for similar reasons.
These population movements were not always peaceful. In many cases blood was shed and property was lost due to civil strife, inhuman acts, and land grabbing by individuals, extremist nationalist states, and communities:
o Near a million Muslim Turks who used to live in the islands of Crete, Rhodes, Cyprus, and Aegean, had to leave their homes and immigrate to Anatolia when the Western Powers gave these islands to Greece, Britain, and Italy. There was wide spread loss of life and property by the Turkish/Muslim population of these islands, who had to leave all their possessions and run for their lives (Please remember the speech on how he massacred the Turks made by Anthony Quinn in the film “Zorba the Greek”). Today, there is neither a single Muslim/Turk nor a place of Islamic worship left in these Islands.
o Over a million Muslims and Jews who used to live in Eastern Thrace (parts of Greece and Bulgaria today), Macedonia, Bulgaria, Albania had to run for their lives, leaving only a small and rapidly dwindling Turkish minority protected by the Lausanne Treaty signed in 1922. The Bosnia, Kosova, and the Palestinian crises are some of these that continued into our times.
o Over a million Muslim Turks, who lived in today’s Bulgaria, were expelled by the Bulgarian nation builders, followed by the Communist regime, continuing even into 1930s to 90s.
o Because of ethnic violence and foreign power domination, many Turks also had to immigrate to Turkey from the southern lands, including Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, and Palestine. The nationalist and revolutionary Arab governments confiscated their property. Most were happy to have their lives spared.
o When the Eastern Anatolia, Caucasus, and Crimea were occupied by the Russians supported by the Armenians in 1915 and parts of these lands became the republics of Armenia and Georgia, over a million Muslim residents of these lands had to ran back to Central, Northern, and Western Turkey, saving their lives and starting a new life.
o Similarly, many minorities who lived in today’s Modern Turkey had to immigrate to their new countries, most notably, Greeks and Orthodox Christians to Greece and USA; Armenians to Armenia, Lebanon, France, USA, Russia, and Latin America; Arabs to other Arab countries, and Christian Arabs to Lebanon, Americas, and France.
Ottoman and Western documents indicate over three million fatalities among the Anatolian Moslem-Turk population and less than a million fatalities among the Anatolian Christian population (Mostly of Greek and Armenian ethnicity).
Each ethnic group that survived the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire, have been teaching their descendants about the terrible things their ancestors had gone through and indoctrinating their children to hate and take vengeance from the others who played a part in their ancestor’s misery. This is specifically prevalent among the Greeks and Armenian Diaspora, who settled in the western countries and became numerous, rich, and politically influential. There have been biased history books written, national days of remembrance established, and monuments erected in almost all past Ottoman Countries (Including Greece and Armenia), which foment hate against each other.
Armenian Americans are particularly active in this process.
The recent Armenian propaganda propagated by a number of American Armenian extremists, including ANCA is a good example of this. In spite of the fact that many historians and scholars fully agree that there is no proof of an organized Ottoman government activity that had the objective of massacring its Armenian minority, in spite of undisputable evidence and Official Ottoman Government records documenting that many of their Armenian and Greek citizens actively collaborated with the invading British, Russian and French forces and killed many innocent Turkish Muslim civilians to further their goals of carving land from the Ottoman Empire, these claims come to surface every year just before April 24, when Armenians allege that Ottomans massacred their descendents. It is a fact that All Ottoman government officials were taken to the Island of Malta at the end of the First World War. They were tried by a court formed by the invading powers. No evidence that they have massacred their Armenian population was found. They were found innocent and summarily released in 1922. Turkish government also categorically denies such accusations and officially asked the Armenian Government to form a joint committee of independent scholars to study the veracity of the Armenian claims. The Armenian Government turned down this request.
If there are any property losses or other claims to be compensated, apologies to be made, and criminals to be punished, these should be discussed among the historians and nations, tried in civil courts and handled in a civilized manner without resorting to terrorism, assassinations, fruitless political campaigns, and one sided commemorative proclamations, that do nothing but create further hate and enmity among our citizens. Armenian Americans must stop teaching their children hate and blood feud and supporting the State of Armenia making territorial claims on their neighbor’s lands. The Lausanne Peace treaty signed in 1922 defined Turkish and Armenian national boundaries, which the Russian Republic, ruler of Armenia at that time, was a part of.
Regards
Comment by Demir Karsan — March 12, 2009
26. BIAS & BIGOTRY IN THE TERM “ARMENIAN GENCOIDE”
If one cherishes values like fairness, objectivity, truth, and honesty, then one should really use the term “Turkish-Armenian conflict”.
Asking one “Do you accept or deny Armenian Genocide” shows anti-Turkish bias. The question should be re-phrased “What is your stand on the Turkish-Armenian conflict?”
Turks believe it was an inter communal warfare mostly fought by Turkish and Armenian irregulars, a civil war which is engineered, provoked, and waged by the Armenian revolutionaries, with active support from Russia, England, France, and others, all eyeing the vast territories of the collapsing Ottoman Empire, against a backdrop of a raging world war. Armenian, on the other hand, ignoring Armenian agitation, raids, rebellions, treason, territorial demands, and Turkish victims killed by Armenians, claim that it was a one way genocide.
GENOCIDE ALLEGATIONS IGNORE “THE SIX T’S OF THE TURKISH-ARMENIAN CONFLICT”
While some in unsuspecting public may be forgiven for taking the blatant and ceaseless Armenian propaganda at face value and believing Armenian falsifications merely because they are repeated so often, it is difficult and painful for someone like me, the son of Turkish survivors on both maternal and paternal sides.
Those seemingly endless “War years” of 1912-1922 brought wide-spread death and destruction on to all Ottoman citizens. No Turkish family was left touched, mine included. Those nameless, faceless Turkish victims are killed for a second time today with politically motivated and baseless charges of Armenian genocide.
ALLEGATIONS OF ARMENIAN GENOCIDE ARE RACIST AND DISHONEST HISTORY
They are racist because they ignore the Turkish dead: about 3 million during WWI; more than half a million of them at the hands of Armenian nationalists.
And the allegations of Armenian genocide are dishonest because they simply dismiss “THE SIX T’S OF THE TURKISH-ARMENIAN CONFLICT”:
1) TUMULT (as in numerous Armenian armed uprisings between 1882 and 1920)
2) TERRORISM (by well-armed Armenian nationalists and militias victimizing Ottoman-Muslims between 1882-1920)
3) TREASON (Armenians joining the invading enemy armies as early as 1914 and lasting until 1921)
4) TERRITORIAL DEMANDS (where Armenians were a minority, not a majority, attempting to establish Greater Armenia, the would-be first apartheid of the 20th Century with a Christian minority ruling over a Muslim majority )
5) TURKISH SUFFERING AND LOSSES (i.e. those caused by the Armenian nationalists: 524,000 Muslims, mostly Turks, met their tragic end at the hands of Armenian revolutionaries during WWI, per Turkish Historical Society. This figure is not to be confused with about 2.5 million Muslim dead who lost their lives due to non-Armenian causes during WWI. Grand total: more than 3 million, according to Prof. Justin McCarthy.)
6) TERESET (temporary resettlement) triggered by the first five T’s above and amply documented as such; not to be equated to the Armenian misrepresentations as genocide.)
VERDICT WITHOUT DUE PROCESS AMOUNTS TO LYNCHING
Those who take the Armenian “allegations” of genocide at face value seem to also ignore the following:
1- Genocide is a legal, technical term precisely defined by the U.N. 1948 convention (Like all proper laws, it is not retroactive to 1915.)
2- Genocide verdict can only be given by a "competent court" after "due process" where both sides are properly represented and evidence mutually cross examined.
3- For a genocide verdict, the accusers must prove “intent” at a competent court and after due process. This could never be done by the Armenians whose evidence mostly fall into five major categories: hearsay, mis-representations, exaggerations, forgeries, and “other”.
4- Such a "competent court" was never convened in the case of Turkish-Armenian conflict and a genocide verdict does not exist (save a Kangaroo court in occupied Istanbul in 1920 where partisanship, vendettas, and revenge motives left no room for due process.)
5- Genocide claim is political, not historical or factual. It reflects bias against Turks. Therefore, the term genocide must be used with the qualifier "alleged", for scholarly objectivity and truth.
Peace,
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Son of Turkish Survivors from Both Maternal & Paternal Side
www.turkla.com
Comment by Ergun Kirlikovali — March 12, 2009
27. Denying the Armenian Genocide is a double killing of the victims. All of you denialist and fabricators of truth have blood on your hands!
Shame on all of you deniers.
Comment by Rich — March 12, 2009
28. It's interesting how Armenians conveniently "forget" that their Dashnak's murdered 518K Turks in cities like Erzurum, Ercincan, Van, Kars, etc. (a total of 2.5 million Turks, Azeris, Kurds, Greeks, Persians, Georgians, Tartars, Arabs, Jews lost their lives as a result of their treachary). Armenians were part of the Ottoman Empire (Turks rescued them from the Byzantines in 1453, where they were slaves and being taxed to death!).
Turks and Armenians lived in peace for centuries. Then, the Dashnaks were conned by the Czar (with promises of land and wealth, which he had no intention of keeping) to revolt and become a traitorous 5th column to fight for Russia. At first they attacked the Kurds, who naturally attacked them in retaliation. Let's not forget the thousands of innocent non-Dashnak Armenians who the Dashnaks murdered (for not getting in step with them when they opposed their intent, and also to con the christian nations into believing that the Turks had done the atrocities)! My grandfather was one of the few survivors (most of his family, relatives and friends were slaughtered by the blodthristy Dashnaks) of the Turkish Genocide committed by the Dashnak Armenians in Van (over 20K Turks were massacred within 48 hours)! Luckily, he and others were able to document everything they had witnessed (now archived). Dashnak Armenians have pulled off the largest con job of the 20th century against the christian nations for almost 100 years now. Historians should be investigating this era and coming up with a unified agreement as to what transpired, NOT POLITICIANS! Whenever Dashnaks can't get their way, they ALWAYS start crying "paid agents of Turkey"!
Question…JUST HOW MANY MILLIONS OF $'s HAVE THE ARMENIAN DIASOPORA (HEADED BY ANCA) POURED INTO BUYING OFF CONGRESSIONAL POLITICIANS, STATE AND LOCAL POLITICIANS, THE PBS AND NPR, AS WELL AS THE MAJOR MEDIA OUTLETS? Look in the mirror before making accusations! Your plans to try and destabilize Turkey isn't going to work. Your real side (ANCA) is about to be federally investigated thanks to the courageous efforts by CREW! Your terrorist organizations (ASALA, JCOAG, ALF, etc.) have murdered many innocent people around the world from the 1970's through the 1980's.
Your AYF hate organization is patterned after the Hitler Youth Camps before and during WWII! You try to get the Jewish people on your side by making ridiculous comments such as "being brothers in a similiar Holocaust". You Dashnaks should be ashamed of yourselves! In Berlin, from 1938-1944, Dashnak Armenians published numerous newspapers and magazines praising Hitler and his efforts to exterminate the Jews, making countless anti-semetic remarks! Let's also not forget the infamous Nazi 812th Battalion of WWII, lead by the mass murderer of Muslims and non-Muslims alike in WWI (General Dro). This Unit was comprised of 20K+ Armenians and were active in the Crimea and the Northern Caucuses. They rounded up thousands of Jews, and the ones that they didn't torture and kill outright, they had sent to the concentration camps! Dro, Topalian and other murderers are held in heroship status by Dashnaks! Your Henry Morganthau hated Turks before he even arrived in Turkey. He did everything to get President Woodrow Wilson to turn against Turkey. He was stationed in Istanbul (and never even left the city to authenticate any of the, what was later shown to be, false reports concieved by Armenians. He simply believed them verbatim!
Then again, his secretary and his personal assistant were both ARMENIANS! Surprise!). USN Admiral Mark Bristol gave accurate accounts of what was really going on. he saw the Dashnak Armenian scam for what it truly was! I suppose that Sir Ellis Bartlett sums it all up best. He was a member of the British Parliament. In February of 1895, he stood on the floor of Parliament and quoted M. Ximeues, a famous and internationally respected Spanish scientist, gentleman and geographer. Ximeues had been to several of the areas that the Armenians had claimed the Turks had destroyed their villages and massacred their people. After touring all of the sites of claimed allegations of "massacre", he reported that the "Stories so widely circulated in such a horrible language and with such circumstantial detail, was a gigantic fraud!". Ximeues continued on by stating that "The stories of thousands of Armenians being murdered, their women being raped, of scores of their villages being destroyed, of tortures and outrages of many kinds being inflicted upon the priests, women and men, are simply the wildest invention of falsehood!".
Finally, Sir Bartlett quotes Ximeues on the Parliament floor when he says "Armenians are, of all the Oriental races, the most subtle, adroit and PRONE TO LYING!". Dashnak Armenians will stoop to the lowest of lows to achieve their goals. Their motto "By Any Means Necessary" is quite fitting. They want land grabs and to receive hand outs from conned christian nations, while trying to stir them up to get them to do the Armenians dirty work for them! They would try and get politicians (most who couldn't even point out Turkey, much less Armenia, on a world map) to vote on a critical issue such as this. Armenia is a backwater country, with one of the most corrupt and oppressive governments on earth! If an Armenian wanted to change his religion and become, let's say, a Catholic, he'd be excommunicated by the Armenian Orthodox Church! Why are so many of its citizens trying to get Visa's to leave the country? It has no real strategic importance. It has always sided with Russia (and has openly said so). The US owes nothing to this country. Turkey has been a key ally and friend for decades with the US!
Any member, or family member, who served in the 3rd Army or the 5th Marines during the Korean War owe their lives to the Turkish Brigade who fought thousands of Communist Chinese and North Korean forces in the harsh snow and freezing mountain conditions, much of it hand-to-hand, for three days and nights, without any reinforcements, so that they could but time for the US forces to retreat to safety. After 9/11, Turkey, along with the US and Britain, sent in over 200 commandos into Afghanistan prior to any major troops arriving. Turkey has been a strategic military partner with Israel. The list goes on and on of their working together with the US and others. What exactly has been Armenia's contributions? Oh yes, they sent a few mechanics and truck drivers to Iraq. That's about all they've done. And for this, with their massive inferiority complex and mass jealousness, they will do anything to sacrifice the long friendship of Turkey with the US! All the way back to the late 1880's, they've already proven that lying means nothing to them! It didn't then, so why should it now!
Bribary, intimidation, defamation of character, slander, lies, threats, fire bombings of homes of authors, fabrications, forgeries, assault and yes, even murder, is not beyond them. so to the people of the US, and the whole world, be carful of the viper that cons you to do it's bidding. You might just get bitten yourselves! There are two sides to every story. All we ask is that you hear us out. Armenians are too terrified to allow the truth to be heard. Unlike them, we can back up our statements.
Comment by Robert — March 12, 2009
29. The PhD student Jane Shlimon is exactly right. The Congress should stay out of dispute! Turkey has proposed a Historical commission, composed of scholars with expertise on Ottoman and World War 1 history, to investigate what really happened in Anatolia during the years around 1915, and agreed to accept the conclusion of such a commission. Ottoman archives are open and available for studies of historians. Armenia should accept this proposal and make its archives accessible to historians.
Comment by Rebecca — March 12, 2009
30. As Americans, we owe it to ourselves not to allow narrow-minded special interest groups like the Armenian lobby, to dictate the foreign policy and domestic agenda of the US Administration and Congress. It's enough of a fact that: 1) majority of Americans would not support this;
2) that not even 1/3 of House supported this in previous congress despite lobby's pressure and donations;
3) Actually, far less than "20? countries have supported this Armenian-lobby inspired resolutions (the list of 20 includes Armenia, Greece, Cyprus, as well as Uruguay and other unimportant and Turcophobe countries)
4) Several countries, like UK, Sweden, etc., have refused to recognize the "genocide";
5) Many historians who might have initially supported the view, have changed their opinion after more careful examination of facts;
6) The events of 1915 simply cannot be classified as genocide under the one and only genocide convention of the UN — otherwise Armenians would have sued Turkey in The Hague.
7) There are one (1) million Turkic-American citizens in US — what about their rights?
8) Armenians have committed the largest and most gruesome crime against humanity in Caucasus in the 1990's — the Khojaly Massacre. Why don't Congress condemn that and adopt a Khojaly Massacre resolution on Armenians and Armenia?
Comment by Mourad Topalian — March 12, 2009
31. Attacks on Congresswoman Johnsosn and PhD Student Jane Shlimon are examples to threatening methods of Armenians. Instead of replying with facts, they retort to intimidation. Without any proof they equate their losing a war they started in 1914 to the level of Holocaust.
Warring parties were eliminated from the UN genocide convention upon Raphael Lemkin's recommendation. Armenian leader Armen Garo wrote in his book of 1918 published in Boston that 200,000 armed Armenian volunteers joined to fight in the Russian army when the latter declared war on the Ottoman Empire in 1914.
Armenian allegations have not been proven in any court of law. Only anti-Turkish people are self appointed to the genocide scholar title. Those who question are dismissed by Dennis Papazian as in the case of Wilmar Keiser.
Vote hungry politicians should not decide on an event that they know nothing about. Armenians have established businesses in the USA outnumbering Americans of Turkish descent and they brainwash their children with racist anti-Turkish feelings.
A century old event cannot be judged without historical research. Armenians are silencing the Turks as if their unproven allegations have ever been proven taking advantage of Holocaust denial laws, without any proof. If Turkish speakers are to be left outside the debate so should people of Armenian descent like Adam Schiff and commenters in this column whose names end with the -ian suffix.
Comment by Jannaan — March 12, 2009
32. Hey Lucrece, I think you have more than fulfilled your lobbying duties. You may now go and pollute some other cyberspace…
Comment by Ara — March 12, 2009
33. It should be denied based on the historical evidence that it was NOT genoside (British archives, American Archives). Turkey being a close ally should not be even a part of the discussion.
Comment by Max — March 12, 2009
34. Max it is obvious you do not know this subject if you can not even spell the word "genocide" correctly.
Comment by Rich — March 12, 2009
35. Some of the comments seem to be very biased, agressive and based on information only from one side. There are two sides to every story. Before having an idea, people should read historical and fact based documents from both sides. However, in the end it should be the objective historians who decide if this was genocide or not.
I personally agree that tragic things had happened to Turks and Armenians and of course to some other minorities in the region. However, in order to call the tragedy that the Armenians had to suffer, a "genocide" it had to be a preplanned, organized action with the aim to achieve ethnic cleansing.
The Ottoman Empire decided to relocate the Armenians in order to protect itself from the Armenian Rebellions who were fighting against them and killing the civilians to get their own land. And also to some extent to protect the Armenian civilians who were negetively affected from the war going on in the area.
Unfortunately, the intended result was not achieved as so many Armenians died on the way. However, one must never forget that those were difficult times. There was no food, no money and even Turkish soldiers who were accompanying the Armenians with their forced journey died on the way.
Many Turkish soldiers froze to death at the Russian border in those days, which shows that the Ottoman Empire was in such a poor state that they could not even protect their own soldiers. This, besides other facts, shows me that it was a tragedy but not an organized preplanned crime called "Genocide"
Comment by Me_Bul — March 12, 2009
36. I mourn for the known half million Turks (men, women and children) who were massacred by the Armenians and Russians in a brutal armed insurrection to take over lands that were never theirs.
www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/massacres/cavusoglu.html
Comment by OB — March 12, 2009
37. To say that after 90 years the Armenian Genocide still requires historical research is an insult to scholarship and a cowardly position by the Turkish lobby and the 'scholars' it is funding. Every single scholar who denies the Armenian Genocide or claims it is controversial can be directly linked to Ankara. And yes, that includes Bernard Lewis (Dick Cheney's favorite historian), who recognized the Armenian Genocide and then reneged after a trip to Ankara. This supposed 'controversy' is precisely what Ahmadinejad is doing with the Holocaust. And this is creating the Blueprint for Holocaust denial a few decades down the line.
Comment by dany Beylerian — March 12, 2009
38. US made a huge mistake by invasion Iraq.
The second similar mistake would be to recognize the fabricated "armenian genocide".
It would be complete brainless decision to act against old partner (Turkey) in favor of a microscopic artificial country, Armenia, which may not even exist in 10 years.
If US wants to create Turkey-Russia-Iran coalition with a perspective of China to join this anti-US coalition, then they should recognize the fictitious "genocide".
It would be the first step to self-destruction of USA.
Bush almost destroyed the financial system of US, and Obama by recognazing the fictional "genocide" may put the first nail into sarcophagus of our great country.
Comment by eli musov — March 13, 2009
39. What I learned in my intro to law class is that charging someone as guilty for a crime that they didn't commit is a bigger mistake than letting go off someone is guilty. I thought the American Judicial system is based on the principle that one is not guilty until otherwise is proven. Clearly we are talking about an issue on which the historians are not in agreement. There is a lot of contradicting information and views on the subject. Do the members of the Congress feel confident and knowledgable enough on the topic to make a fair judgement on it? Are they experts on the topic? Did they conduct thorough research on it? While the world-known historians have contradicting views on this, what makes the Congress members think that they are truely capable of making the right judgement especially when the subject matter is charging a nation with committing genocide, the crime of crimes? This is a big responsibility that should not be taken lightly at the expense of some thousand votes.
Comment by Dee — March 13, 2009
40. Armenian Genocide is an apparent fact and nobody has the moral right to put it under suspicion. Unfortunately politics and own interests of some states just play with such facts and sorrow of millions of suffered ones. That is inhuman in our enlightened and civilized age.
Comment by Artyom — March 13, 2009
41. Me_Bul is right. It is not acceptable to discuss the tragic events of 1915-1916 without mentioning:
— The context of epidemics, like typhus, who killed many peoples, Christian, Muslims and Jews, in the whole Ottoman Empire, and more especially in Eastern Anatolia and Arabian vilayets;
— The armed rebellion of nationalist Armenians, in Van, Zeytun, Bursa, rural Cilicia, etc., and the numerous crimes perpetrated by the rebels;
— The lack of food, especially in Eastern Anatolia and Arabian province, because British-French blocus (in 1914, the half of the boats in the world are British boats, and the second fleet of the globe is the French fleet) and the flood of Muslims refugees, who flet Russian invasion and Russian-Armenian atrocities.
— The efforts of several Ottoman leaders, including Talat Pasha (number one of the CUP regime) and Djemal Pasha (governor of the Near East) for help the Armenian deportees and punish the Muslims who killed of robbed Armenians.
Comment by Lucrece — March 13, 2009
42. Bernard Lewis distinguishes Armenian case from Shoah (Holocaust):
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG70UWESfu4
Comment by Lucrece — March 13, 2009
43. You, readers of the Hill Blog, are actually the witnesses of a decisive chapter in this debate. You should be aware of the fact that the drama was up-graded as genocide in middle of the sixties by the then communist regime of USSR (Union of sovietic-socialist Republics).
The Communist strategy was to attack directly Turkey for two reasons: 1) Turkey was (and remain to-day) a very important member of NATO, protecting the south-eastern flank of Europe; 2) Turkey was (and remain to-day) engaged in a close relationship with the European Union, aiming at becoming a full-member of this new political entity. USSR, just like Russia to-day, has allways considered a United Europe as a threat. From the Rusian point of view, any reinforcement of the Western camp should be fought.
The up-grading of a drama into a genocide was the perfect pretext to mobilise the important Armenian diaspora within the Western countries.
And all the communist parties, communist medias and semi-clandestine communist organisations active in the Western countries (especially in France) were requested to participate in this world-wide campaign.
To be shure that the Armenian diaspora would be fully engaged, the Russian Communist regime re-activated his control on the FRA- Dachnack, the biggest organisation among the diaspora. In the middle of 1960's, the head-quarter of FRA-Dachnack (including the finance department) was moved to Beyrouth (Lebanon), under close control of the Syrian secret service, itself under close monitoring of the Soviet KGB.
After the Communist system collapse in USSR, the Russian interests, concerns and Dachnack control remain the same -with some up-dating e.g.: the control of pipe-lines ( Nabuco)in the South-Caucasus.
To make sure that the mess is completed, the Dachnack-Russian campaign is focussing not on the genocide historical question but on the very actual, contemporary political consequences:
- reclaiming some territories on the Turkish soil;
- refusing the Turkish membership to the European Union;
- threatening of the Nabuco Pipe-line;
- weakening the solidarity between USA and its European allies among which Turkey;
The most regrettable in this disgusting desinformation strategy is that it perpetuates a totally useless and out-dated antagonism. Deliberatly, it prevents the necesary reconciliation between Turks and Armenians.
Look carefully : all actions engaged since 1960 against Turkey under the pretext of genocide are finally direct profits for the Russian strategy and geopolitical interests.
Facing the innumerable dramas of the past, nobody is requested to forget or forgive the sufferings. But there are only two attitudes: either 1) to prolong the hates and the fights,2) organise the reconciliation and the common work to face together the serious problems of the 21st century.
Don't let you be driven by anybody else hidden agenda. It is your futur that is at stake.
Comment by Vital — March 13, 2009
44. "As Americans, we owe it to ourselves and the world to live up to our values of truth and justice, not down to the level of a foreign government's undisguised use of threats to impose a gag-rule on U.S. human rights policy."
And who wrote these great words? Mr. Amparian, a member of the Armenian National Committee of America (ANCA). What a good joke. A complaint was recently filed against ANCA for violation of the Foreign Agents Registration Act ("FARA"):
citizensforethics.org/node/37305 (text of the complaint).
citizensforethics.org/node/37306 (complaint exhibits).
During the 1970's-1980's, the ANCA supported openly the terrorist attacks perpetrated in USA by the Justice Commando of Armenian Genocide (JCAG), i.e. the terrorist group of the Dashnak party. The ANCA paid the lawyers of the JCAG terrorists arrested by the FBI (see Michael M. Gunter, "'Pursuing the Just Cause of their People'. A Study of Contemporary Armenian Terrorism", Westport-New York-London, Greenwood Press, 1986).
Mr. Mourad Topalian, president of the ANCA between 1991 and 1999, currently in charge of ANCA political financing, was sentenced in 2001 to 37 months of jail by a US tribunal, for illegal possession of explosives and weapons, linked to JCAG terrorist group.
The ANCA and the Dashnak party are tools of Russian policy against USA and NATO, like their counterparts in Europe (especially in France and Belgium) are tools against European Union.
Comment by Lucrece — March 13, 2009
45. As an addition to the great comment written by Vital, I would like stress that the Armenian nationalist campaigns against the Nabucco pipe-line are not new. During the 1990's, nationalist Armenian attempted to prevent the construction of the Baku-Tbilissi-Ceyhan pipeline by US companies. For example, the Armenian terrorist group ASALA threatened to bomb the works in 1993, i.e. when the ASALA leadership returned in the Russian influence, and less than two years after the revival of ASALA, with the attempt of assassination of Turkish embassador in Budapest.
Comment by Lucrece — March 13, 2009
46. Anyone with half a brain cell functioning knows and understands that the Armenian "genocide" industry is funded and organized by Russian interests. See the excellent comment no. 43 by Vital for details.
Efforts to pass this non-binding resolution feed into Putin's desire to wrest Turkey away from the west and control transport of precious natural resources such as gas and oil away from western interests. One should ask why the Russian military presence so vastly outnumbers the Armenian military itself.
Armenian genocide proponents are the utmost hypocrites in this controversial topic, denying the hundreds of thousands of civilian Ottoman Muslims and Jews massacred by Armenian Dashnak and Hunchak insurgents from 1870-1923.
If Congress feels a burning need to acknowledge the dead from that period, they should not forget those killed by Armenian insurgents who were armed by the U.S., England, France and Russia. In this, the U.S. too has blood on its hands.
Comment by Lynn — March 13, 2009
47. correction:
One should ask why the Russian military presence IN ARMENIA TODAY so vastly outnumbers the Armenian military itself.
Comment by Lynn — March 13, 2009
48. It's amazing how the Turkish-propaganda spambots have decended on this article in the past 24 hours, a couple days after it was posted. They must be forwarding it around to each other now. While everyone can say whatever they want, I would ask Lucrece to STOP spamming who continuously has multiple posts in a row. I wonder if she thinks anyone would actually bother to read the pages of stuff she is typing. Less is more, the more you write the less likely it is anyone will actually read it. I certainly don't have time to read the tome that is your numerous comments..
Comment by Paul — March 13, 2009
49. It's amazing how the Armenian "genocide" fanatics believe in free speech for themselves, but NOT for those who oppose their disinformation campaign.
If these genocide claims were as indisputable as Armenians claim, they could withstand robust debate and there would be no need to try to silence all opposition.
In fact, one would think that such "indisputable" claims supported by such "overwhelming credible evidence" would be worth taking to the International Court of Justice.
It's a wonder Armenians have spent tens of millions lobbying world legislative bodies, but can't be bothered to use half that money to take their claims to a court of justice to prove their claims and that a crime occurred beyond a reasonable doubt.
One should also ask:
(i) why the Dashnak archives remain concealed from the public,
(ii) how a group of insurgents have become the dominating force and political party today in Armenia, and
(iii) why the interests of this foreign political party formed by terrorist insurgents before WWI are being promoted in the U.S. Congress.
Comment by Lynn — March 13, 2009
50. I first entered the debate in opposition to the "Armenian Genocide Resolution" on purely national security grounds. Then I was forced to look at the debate substantively. If one looks at the facts and the arguments of the Armenians, the Turks, the IAGS and others, the only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that there was no Armenian Genocide. There has been too much heat and too little light on this subject.
Comment by Orrin R. Ford — March 13, 2009
51. A March 23, 1920, letter of Col. Charles Furlong, an Army intelligence officer and U.S. Delegate to the Paris Peace Conference, to President Woodrow Wilson elaborated: "We hear much, both truth and gross exaggeration of Turkish massacres of Armenians, but little or nothing of the Armenian massacres of Turks. … The recent so-called Marash massacres [of Armenians] have not been substantiated. In fact, in the minds of many who are familiar with the situation, there is a grave question whether it was not the Turk who suffered at the hands of the Armenian and French armed contingents which were known to be occupying that city and vicinity. … Our opportunity to gain the esteem and respect of the Muslim world … will depend much on whether America hears Turkey's untrammeled voice and evidence which she has never succeeded in placing before the Court of Nations."
Capt. Emory Niles and Arthur Sutherland, on an official 1919 U.S. mission to eastern Anatolia, reported: "In the entire region from Bitlis through Van to Bayezit, we were informed that the damage and destruction had been done by the Armenians, who, after the Russians retired, remained in occupation of the country and who, when the Turkish army advanced, destroyed everything belonging to the Musulmans. Moreover, the Armenians are accused of having committed murder, rape, arson and horrible atrocities of every description upon the Musulman population. At first, we were most incredulous of these stories, but we finally came to believe them, since the testimony was absolutely unanimous and was corroborated by material evidence. For instance, the only quarters left at all intact in the cities of Bitlis and Van are Armenian quarters … while the Musulman quarters were completely destroyed."
Niles and Sutherland were fortified by American and German missionaries on the spot in Van. American Clarence Ussher reported that Armenians put the Turkish men "to death," and, for days, "They burned and murdered." A German missionary recalled that, "The memory of these entirely helpless Turkish women, defeated and at the mercy of the [Armenians] belongs to the saddest recollections from that time."
And finally, let me ask you how many German SS officers were punished by Hitler's courts for cruelty against Jews?
The answer, of course is zero.
On the other hand, when a few Ottoman-Turkish officers took it upon themselves to extract revenge agains innocent Armenians, they were tried, punished and even hanged, by the Ottoman Turkish Courts.
So, to compare the two is nothing but absurd.
Almost as absurd as legislators most of whom cannot even place these places on a map, legislating history, and not the expert historians.
Comment by Ismail Ayduk — March 13, 2009
52. Paul must be used to one sided articles that Armenian - propaganda slambots organize and descend upon. I am tired of Armenian SPAMMING and insults. If you have any solid explanation or evidence to convince the readers that Lucrece's logic is wrong you would have provided it by now, wouldn't you? Instead you choose to bad mouth the persona and hurl insults.
Obviously, Armenian propagandists' articles are restricted for publication only where reader comments are not allowed like the NY Times.
shame shame…
Comment by Jannaan — March 13, 2009
53. Lynn,
These events were tried three times, but the Turkish Government was not even pressed with any charges, because the Armenian claims were found to be void. That is why the Armenians spend their money on politicians who do not care a diddly about the TRUTH. Congressmen have no time to listen to historical debate written here. They only vote to gain votes in return.
Comment by Jannaan — March 13, 2009
54. Decent and honest citizens who are not intimidated by Armenians should know and understand that the Armenian "genocide" industry is funded and organized by Russian interests and against the U.S., E.U. and NATO interests. See the excellent comment no. 43 by Vital for details.
Comment by Ergun Kirlikovali — March 13, 2009
55. Dearest writers and readers,
It is sad to even read about some of the comments you have posted. The truth is, well, there is no truth about genocide in Armenia. There was no genocide and I think it is time to give up the lies and get on with your lives(!) Genocide never happened and if you call it genocide then what do you call Khojali massacre that happened in Azerbaijan? Shame on Armenians for lying and shame on you for comparing something (how dare you!!!) to Holocaust.
Shame shame shame on Armenia (the lying nation).
Comment by NOYB — March 13, 2009
56. "the Turkish-propaganda"
If the comments which are annoying you were simply "Turkish propaganda", you could demonstrate the factual and logical fallacies easy.
"They must be forwarding it around to each other now."
Because the Armenian activists did not share this kind of information, perhaps? What a good joke.
"I would ask Lucrece to STOP spamming who continuously has multiple posts in a row."
We are not in a school and you are not the supervisor.
Comment by Lucrece — March 13, 2009
57. "On the other hand, when a few Ottoman-Turkish officers took it upon themselves to extract revenge agains innocent Armenians, they were
tried, punished and even hanged, by the Ottoman Turkish Courts."
Few? Exaggerate nothing, please. More than 1 600 peoples were tried by Ottoman martial courts during the years 1915 and 1916, including a least a hundred of peoples sentenced to death and hanged (more than 20 during the year 1915, 67 during the Spring 1916, several others during the rest of the years, especially in January and February). According to Kâmuran Gürün himself, there were other trials during the years 1917 and 1918.
The Turkish side is right when they use the trials of war criminals as an argument against the "genocide" thesis, but wrong when they say (sometimes) that the killing of Armenians were something like "few isolated acts". There were much less Armenians killed than Armenian propaganda assert, but more than some Turkish historians accept to recognize.
A more deep and systematic research in archives, and other excavation of victims (all kind of victims: Muslim, Armenian, Jews, etc.) are necessary for a best knowledge of the past. The recent research, by Guenter Lewy, Edward J. Erickson, Justin McCarthy, Yusuf Halaçoglu, Hikmet Özdemir and Yusuf Sarinay had advanced history, and that is good. But many other precisions will be welcome.
Comment by Lucrece — March 13, 2009
58. Go to www.NoPlaceForDenial.com to check out the blatant hypocrisy of the Anti-Defamation League on the Armenian genocide. Click on "History of Lobbying." It's a very sad story.
As for genocide, the Turks also conducted a genocide against Assyrians (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Genocide) and Pontic Greeks (www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9Yr7Lb3tCU). What does Turkey have against Christians that it should have exterminated so many of them? Can anyone answer this question?
Comment by Artemis — March 13, 2009
59. The saddest of them all, is that history is written by (Armenian) lobbysists in America. The louder they shout, the more "history" they write. Armenian tools to write history?
1- Votes
2- Dollars
3- Intimidation
4- Terrorism
5- Russian support (since 1820s)
6- Paid pseudo scholars (genocide scholars)
7- Paid Armenian agents (like Taner Akcam - see below)
***
UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA
Office of the General Counsel
January 17, 2008
Re: Letter to University President Robert Bruininks
Dear Mr. Kirlikovali:
University of Minnesota President Robert Bruininks asked me to respond to your December 13, 2007, e-mail regarding Dr. Taner Akcam.
Dr. Akcam is currently employed by the University as a Research Associate in the College of Liberal Arts (CLA), Department of History. This is an annually renewable, Professional & Administrative ("P&A") position…
…In your e-mail, you asked whether Dr. Akcam's position is funded, in whole or in part, by an Armenian foundation.…It is my understanding that Dr. Taner's current position is funded in large part by the Zoryan Institute, and the Cafesjian Family Foundation.
…In your e-mail, you expressed concern regarding Dr. Akcam's scholarly work concerning the Armenian genocide. Clearly, the Armenian genocide is a controversial issue with strong proponents on all sides. The University respects your views on the issue…
…Finally, you expressed concern in your e-mail regarding Dr. Akcam's background and qualifications. The University is aware of the various allegations regarding Dr. Akcam…
…Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts with us.
Brent P. Benrud
Associate General Counsel
Comment by Ergun Kirlikovali — March 13, 2009
60. Note that the UM letter above soecifically states that "…Dr. Akcam is currently employed by the University as a Research Associate in the College of Liberal Arts (CLA), Department of History…" not as a professor as Taner Akcam shamelessly claims all over the world. That makes him a crook.
If you want to see his photo taken while giving a lecture in New Orleans last year with the slide behind him showing his title as "professor", you will know the extent of his fraud.
He was employed (until recently when our exposure revealing his dirty secret must have forced his armenian handlers to whisk him to a safer location, like Clark Univ. near Boston) as a research associate, not as a professor. This cannot be a slip of the tongue, because he had a slide prepared with his full title as professor.
This is no small matter as this shows how he deals with facts of life: by extending, coloring, and embellishing the truth.
He was dishonest with American audiences because if they they knew Dr. Akcam was being paid by the Armenians the whole time, they would be more careful with investing their trust in what Dr. Akcam says.
Comment by Ergun Kirlikovali — March 13, 2009
61. If you want to see his photo taken while giving a lecture in New Orleans last year with the slide behind him showing his title as "professor", you will know the extent of his fraud:
www.turkla.com/yazar.php?mid=1284&yid=4
Comment by Ergun Kirlikovali — March 13, 2009
62. Steve Douglas Jr. Says:
April 18, 2008
I am a historian…
Another attempt to legislate history…The events of 1915 has never been historically or legally substantiated.
It was with the creation of two revolutionary Armenian committees, the Hinchag Committee formed in Geneva, Switzerland in 1887, and the Dashnag Committee, established in Tbilisi, Georgia in 1890, that Armenian national aspirations began to assume the more classical form which the Ottomans had come to know and worry in the previous half-century.
From the outset, both the Hinchags and Dashnags adopted terror as a primary tactic in their struggle, the ultimate aim of which was the “liberation” of the Armenian “homeland” of eastern Anatolia from the Ottoman rule. They tried to alter the demographic structure of certain regions by massacring and harassing the Turks and other Muslims in these areas.
The Great Powers of those days began to regard the Armenians as an important instrument that could be manipulated against the Ottoman Empire. These powers promised the Armenians a purely ethnic Armenian state in Eastern Anatolia where paradoxically they constituted only a minority.
The start of World War I and the entry of the Ottoman State into the war against the Allied Powers were seen as a great opportunity by the extremist Armenians. They revolted against the Ottoman Government and collaborated with the invading Russian Armies and other foreign forces, launching attacks on the Ottoman army and Muslim civilians from behind the front and engaging in acts of sabotage.
In March 1915, the Russian forces began to move toward Van. Immediately, on April 11, 1915, the Armenians of Van initiated a general revolt, massacring all the Turks in the vicinity to enable the city’s quick and easy conquest by the Russians.
When there was no evident lessening of the Armenian attacks, the Ottoman Government finally acted. On April 24, 1915, the Armenian revolutionary committees were closed and 235 of their leaders were arrested for activities against the state. It is the date of these arrests that has been annually observed in recent years by Armenian nationalist groups throughout the world to commemorate the “massacre” which they claim took place at that time. No such massacre, however, occurred, at that or any other time during the war.
The Ottoman Government, facing enormous internal and external threats caused by the Armenians, in May 1915, resorted to a defensive measure, which any country in a similar situation would not hesitate to take. It adopted the Relocation Law to transfer Armenians who lived in areas affected by war to southern provinces of the Ottoman State.
The Ottoman Government instructed the local authorities to take the necessary security measures for the orderly relocation of the Armenians. The orders which were issued to this effect are available in the Ottoman archives. Despite these measures, war conditions, feelings of local hatred and revenge had prompted attacks towards the convoys during the transfer process. The Government tried to prevent them. Moreover, officials or civilians who disobeyed the instructions of the Government and committed offences against Armenian convoys were tried by the Military Courts (“Divan-i Harbi Örfi, 1915-1916).
Despite these measures, scarcity of food and other means in the days of war, severe weather conditions, and outbreak of epidemic diseases like typhus, affecting the population in general, had also led to the increase in loss of human lives.
There is no question that the heavy toll in human lives during that period was a dark chapter in the common history of the Turks and the Armenians. In fact, it was an era in which all the people of Anatolia shared the same fate. It should be noted that 3 million people, mostly civilian Muslims, died in Anatolia during World War I. Those who perished in the hands of Armenian bands reached 524, 000, between the years 1914 through 1922. This is the actual reality behind the false claims distorting historical facts by ill-devised mottoes, such as the “first genocide of the Twentieth Century”.
Comment by beryl blerian — March 13, 2009
63. Why does the powerful Armenian lobby block the debate on this 100-year-old controversial issue and use its political power to pressure the U.S. legislature to be the judge? Is such a controversial issue that many scholars still disagree on in U.S. lawmakers' jurisdiction? If the Armenians have nothing to hide, why don't they take it to the International Court of Justice and solve it once and for all?
Armenian "Genocide" issue is NOT in America's interest. Our politicians should encourage Armenia and Turkey to solve this issue on their own. American intervention will only make things worse.
Comment by John — March 13, 2009
64. A small rectification to the good 62th comment. The figure of 524,000 peoples assassinated by Armenian gangs between 1914 and 1921 is the total of massacres whose the number of victims was known, in Eastern Anatolia and Caucasus.
For the tabulation of 1914-1919 years, see:
www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/source.cms.docs/devletarsivleri.gov.tr.ce/docs/Yayinlar/35_ermenisoykirim_1.pdf (pp. 375-377).
And for the 1919-1921 years:
www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/source.cms.docs/devletarsivleri.gov.tr.ce/docs/Yayinlar/36_ermenisoykirim_2.pdf (pp. 1053-1054).
So, this figure does not include the Muslims killed by Armenian Legion in Taurus (Cilicia), from 1918 to 1921; and by Armenian volunteers of Greek forces in Western Anatolia, from 1919 to 1922.
Anyway, the figure of Muslims killed by Armenians in Anatolia only is probably around 500,000.
Comment by Lucrece — March 13, 2009
65. As an individual who spent more than a decade in the U.S. I am fed up with all the one-way rhetoric. I thought we were all brothers; I welcomed you all when I first met, but you have taken that away from me by disrespecting my family's sad little history one too many times. Next time an Armenian pushes his favorite letter "G" to my face with an agenda, or without an introduction, I will be pounding his sorry little bottom, or maybe I'll try and try again to relay him all the other point of views as usual; I don't know… Like I said, I am fed up.
If in my family I have great uncles, aunts, grandmothers, granfathers (mother's and father's side, both) who were forced out of their homes, orphaned, poisened, and murdered done at the hands of Armenians during the WW1 days; how can anyone dare pitch me another story while conveniently disregarding mine?
What's a shame here is, all this nonsense turned me away from Armenians. Now I am biased against them, assuming they are all brainwashed naive sillies clinging to their last thread of a community existence with denial supersized.
In WW1, everybody died people, everybody died.
Armenian-Americans, please wake up and smell the coffee; and next time you meet a Turkish-American, why not hug them instead?
Comment by Jamal Olugosch — March 13, 2009
66. "check out the blatant hypocrisy of the Anti-Defamation League on the Armenian genocide. Click on "History of Lobbying." It's a very sad story."
Thank you to confirm that Armenian lobbyists will be never satisfied, especially by Jews. The Armenian lobbyists, especially ANCA, said, again and again, that the "recognition" is just a step for the financial and territorial claims. The traditional anti-semitism of Armenian nationalists is another factor who explains the hate against Anti-Defamation League, despite the numerous concessions made by this Jewis organization to Armenian ultranationalism since 2007.
For those who ignore the huge Armenian anti-semitism:
www.ataa.org/reference/nazi-ozer.html
www.rferl.org/Content/Article/1057091.html
www.armenianissueblog.org/2008/10/26/us-report-slams-anti-semitism-in-armenia%E2%80%99s-post-election-period/
Comment by Lucrece — March 13, 2009
67. It's good to hear both views. My question to the Armenians would be why don't they (and Russians) open up their archives for historians to study this critical period in history? Turkish govt made the recommendation of historians from other countries studying archives to determine the outcome which Turkish govt agreed to live with..This appears to be a very logical solution however, Armenians are rejecting it… Why??
Also, stop blaming the Turks for lobbying against the issue. This is a very serious accusation without actual facts…Armenians have one of the strongest lobbying in Washington yet you keep accusing Turks of lobbying..I appreciate both views and the governments need to stay out of these judgments. It should be left up to the historians. Why is my elected official even spending a minute on these issues???
Don't they have better things to worry about, like the economy, unemployment, health care…Most Americans don't care about what happened 100 years ago in another country..We've done enough damage to the Indians/blacks that I would consider more in line with genocide than what happened during WWI…
Through history, all nations have committed crimes for the sake of victory, independence, etc. How far should we go back to determine what qualifies as genocide???
Personally, I don't care to hear about Armenian claims anymore. Stop using American politics!!
Comment by Bill Hansen — March 14, 2009
68. "Who remembers the Armenian Genocide"…direct words from Adolph Hitler … maybe if we did other genocides would not have occurred…lets stand up for justice and pass the Genocide Resolution..its time Turkey fesses up to what it did…
Comment by Bob — March 14, 2009
69. "direct words from Adolph Hitler"
This alleged quotation is a fake:
1) The word "genocide" did not exist in 1939;
2) Hitler did not refer to Armenians in 1939:
www.ataa.org/reference/hitler-lowry.html
Comment by Lucrece — March 15, 2009
70. How about the genocide that Armenians have did towards Azerbaijan?Could this also be debated at Congress…Go look at the real archives and find out for yourselves.In such case, we must have a scientifical research done and not just Armenians looking into that untruthful archives and trying to convince the world that a genocide was done towards them.Russians and Armenians came together to defeat and conquor Turkish land and in those bad conditions a lot of Armenians died and Turkish soldiers and civilians died too.Armenians are just looking for a way to attract the world's attention on themselves.It's ridiculous!
Comment by Osman Takim — March 15, 2009
71. Armenian were a victim of their leaders' miscalculations then. And I see that the same leadership is still around to use them like a pion for their benefit. As a Turk , I do not want any innocent person's suffering be forgotten , but I expect the same kind of sensitivity shown towards the 500 000 innocent Muslim killed by the Armenian gangs and Armenians' doing Russia's and France's and Britain's dirty work under their uniform. Not to mentioned the massacres of the Azerbeycanis in Nahcivan once again in 90s.
Armenians needs to stop their leaders from using them and direct them some questions they were supposed to have more than a 100 years ago.Like: "Howcome we were able to keep our culture and religion intact for more than 500 years under the Ottoman rule and despite all religious and other freedoms , we turned against our country and killed our neigbors of 500 years when all gun bearing men among them were away defending my country in 7 different fronts? "
Some congressman who is only motivated by the money he is getting from some Armenian lobbiest or an Armenian Lobbiest who is motivated by the financial support he gets by being used against Turkey as a leverage will not solve this problem. People of Armenia and Turkey need to come together and kick the bad blood out, so they can honor their death and suffering.
Comment by Osman Sonmez — March 15, 2009
72. Armenians throughout the world should stop passing hate propaganda from one generation to the other and take time to learn the real facts. During the First World War Armenians who enjoyed centuries of freedom and flourished under Ottoman rule becoming ministers, officials and artists chose to join forces with the invading Russians and fought against the Ottoman armies, cut their supply routes and terrorized villages. The intercommunal war started. In order to prevent more bloodshed Armenians in the war zone were relocated while Armenians elsewhere in the Empire went on with their daily lives. Yes many lives were lost from all sides due to harsch climate, famine and intercommunal fighting.
Since the Armenians could not prove the events constituted genocide legally (Malta Tribunals) historically (only Genocide institutes, historians financed by The Armenian Diaspora speak of Genocide) they have first turned to terrorism now to politicians. Anybody who talks that the events were genocide is silenced or labelled as a genocide denier.
Kevser Taymaz
Comment by Kevser Taymaz — March 15, 2009
73. Congress should recognize the Azerbaijani massacres committed by the Armenians. Armenia still occupies Azerbaijan. This is a contemporary issue. Let's deal with that first.
All this holier-than-thou attitude is sickening. US congress dealing with a 100-year-old debate instead of looking at our own past. Or present.
2 million muslims were slaughtered during the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, who recognizes that?
One nation can only come to terms with its past if every other nation does so too. Let's stop this selective hate-mongering against Turks.
Comment by Anne Eisen — March 15, 2009
74. Ladies and gentlemen. Congress of the USA is the legislative branch of government. It is meant to pass laws in the governance of these United States and it's citizens. Ruling on a difficult issue by members of Congress who have no historical knowledge of this event is not logical. If the Armenians have a case against the Turks, why can't they take their case to the International Court of Justice in The Hauge? There they can present all of their arguments and the Turks can present theirs and the Court can decide once and for all. This issue has no jurisdiction in the US despite all of the political lobbying that insists that it is. This issue can be resolved in the Court with the assistance of knowledgable scholars specializing in the history of that period. Passage of any recognition of any genocide without the unbiased sifting of the facts by an independent body, is only a blind pretense. Any Congressman involved with this issue is only concerned with the number of votes in winning the next election.
Comment by Bill — March 15, 2009
75. This is a subject that is disputed by well known historians. It is not up to elected officials to make a judgement on a subject they know very little about. Why not leave it to experts? That is what the Turkish government wants , with both sides making all archives open to historians.
Comment by ayse heinbecker — March 15, 2009
76. Leave history to historian. And before histerically attacking left and right, please read "HISTORY" but the genuine, objective history … Very unfortunate that Anatolia is lacking her Armenian once-inhabitants. However, during late 19th Century, Armenians have made the biggest mistake to cooperate with other nations and to revolt against Ottomans, FIRST massacring their neighbours themselves. This claim does not justify what the locals and officials did then, but they were defending their land and lives and the territorial integrity.
Comment by Pelin — March 16, 2009
77. If the congress would pass a resolution about a historical question, the so called "Armenian Genocide", to whom it would help and what purpose it might serve. These are crucially imortant questions. How will it benefit the future generations of the people living in Turkey and living in Armenia, and far more importantly, how will it help the people of the USA. We pay the taxes and as usual some loby groups and their bosses benefit while in the long term the tax payers lose. If this bill passes the people of Turkey will lose and the people of Armenia will lose as well.
Why? Currently there is a very serious and hopefull handshake and diplomatic opening between Turkey and Armenia to normalize the relations, create a new understanding and cooperation as two neighbours through looking into future together. The Armenian lobby here on the Hill wants to destroy this budding friendship. Since if this happens and the relaions are normalized, the "reason d'etre" of the Armenian lobby and naturally its means of money making will perish. The people of Yerevan and Ankara do not think like the Armenian Lobby here on the hill. The members of the Armenian lobby sits on their comfortable chairs drinking their 7 star Ararat Cognac, which their brethren in Yerevan can not afford to drink as it is expensive and produced only for export, while talking about the future of Armenia. Give me a break please!!! If they would be so sincere may be they would go back and live the realities of Armenia and understand why the relations between Turkey and Armenia should be normalized asap.
Armenia is landlocked. No jobs, no economy, powerty…no furture and being a pupet of the Russian Caucasian politics are the unfortunate realities today. The warm steps Turkey took with courage towards Armenia and the open arm policy that Armeia received the Turkish Gesture is totally unpresidented. So YES. Armenian LOBBY on the HILL does not LIKE IT??? IT HAS TO BE DESTROYED SO THEY CAN CONTINUE DRINKING THEIR EXPESIVE (AND VERY GOOD QUALITY) ARMENIAN COGNACS while their brethren are scrounging for stale bread. Sorry for sounding so negative but enough of the HILL being highjacked by groups of special interest of all kinds during the last 8 years. Enough is Enough. The Armenian Lobby is not the representative of the Armenians in the world and the people of Armenia. The Congress will end up sharing "hypocracy" of the Armenian Lobby in an attempt to legislate history instead of doing something to really better the lives both of the Armenians and Turks living in their hometowns.
When the Armenian Lobbyists who are trying to sway the opinion of our Congress, may disclose how much they are earning from their efforts on the Hill, people of this board and the congress may have a better understanding of the Armenian Lobbysts' motivation regarding not to give peace and positivism a chance through supporting the rapprochmant between Armenia and Turkey. Thanks for reading.
Comment by David Natyo — March 16, 2009
78. It is easy to debate wishful thinking in a cosy congress house without understanding the real facts in this part of the world. Armenians genocide towards Azerbaijan is highly overlooked and overshadowed by the undue attention drawn my Armenians with their friends. The modern world genocide carried by Armenia on Azerbaijan is very fresh in the memory of the living people here. Azeris are very tolerant people and does not mean that such a crime can be overlooked. The hostility is still going on. Debate on the current issues like this, rather than digging the forgotten history.
Comment by Andy Samy_Baku — March 16, 2009
79. The reality of "Armenian cause": pure racial hate and violence.
Evidence by photographies:
armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2009/01/2728-photos-nationalist-armenian.html
www.taldf.org/topalian.pdf
Comment by Lucrece — March 16, 2009
80. armenian trying to dig history only on their side and without looking facts which could be seen on the written proof.
Unfortunately some of the MP's do not know where is turkey and what happened there.
Comment by metin tanir — March 16, 2009
81. Ottoman Empire was having 14 MP's in the assembly, at the time of relocation. Million Armenians were living in the west of empire, and they were not relocated. Why, because they were not killing Turkish villagers, by the help of Russian army, they were not rioting. Only the ones who were in between Ottoman army and Russian army were relocated, in an orderly manner. Or the ones who were in betray against their own country, Ottoman Empire, in which they were living peacefully for 600 years, until they were misled by western countries, such as British, France, as well as Russians. They were moved by train, or carriages to Syria, which was the province of Ottoman Empire back then. They have paid and fed by Ottoman government, their homes were kept intact, and given back when they returned after the war. The number, which is gradually inflated from 300K to 1.5 millions are not the victims due to revenge killings, or epidemics, or hunger. Mostly they migrated to Russia by their own will, or to USA in later years. It is worth to mention that Armenians slaughtered 120K Turkish villages prior to this relocating decision was taken,
There are millions of documents in the archives of USA, Russia, Armenia, England and Turkey. Turkey opened their archives to historians, and asked Armenia to do the same, but rejected by Armenian government. Do you know that the first prime minister Hovhannes Katchaznouni admitted that Armenians were cheated, and optimistically believed that they would realize their Greater Armenia dream.
Now someone should explain to me can this be called as "genocide"? USA relocated Japanese from California for the same worry. Last words, "United Nation refused to call it as "genocide". You know only the courts can judge such things as "genocide", not parliaments! And this court was set in Malta,just after the collapse of Ottoman Empire and no evidence were found to accuse the ex-Ottoman prime minister, ministers and other high rank officials, and they were found not-guilty. This court was run by British government(enemy of Ottomans), not Ottoman government. I hope unbiased readers now at least got suspicious about this big lie! I am not expecting others, with last names ending with "ian" accept this realty.
History is being written by documents, not by stories from grandpas.
Comment by Fuat — March 16, 2009
82. armenians come to Azerbaijanian lands of Zangezur khanate from borders of Suria.
Azerbaijanian khanate of Zangezur was Azerbaijanian Turkish peoples land until 1920 year.
What happen that Turkish peoples?
armenians killd all Turkish peoples in Zangezur.
To day in armenian(former Zangezur) doesn live any Turkish person.
This is natural genocide.
also by armenians Azerbaijanian Turkish peoples Genocide was 1990 in Karabakh. 1 milyon person refuge from to matherland.
Turkish peoples never have terror organizations.
armenians have Dashnakstyun, Grung, Hinjak, Asala, Ara and much more.
Comment by Huner — March 17, 2009
83. Did those "genocide" term defenders ever think about understanding what really happened, before going into this blind activism?
All right, the turkish version of the history is biased, but why should-I believe that the armenian-associated version is unbiased? The armenians concentrated a lot on this issue since several decades, and there is a "genocide recognizing" network all over the world. Any western historian who claim a different idea than the armenian one is threatened by armenian lobbies or militants.
To my opinion, the events cannot be compared to the holocaust of jews, because they were first of all an ethnic clash in the region. It all started by an ethnic clash! If we don't want that such tragedies ever happen again, we should first understand what really happened, without political games, lobbying, thinking on revenge.
Comment by Mehmet — March 17, 2009
84. Most unfortunate event was that the Armenian people who lived closely and friendly in Anatolian land and shared their fate for centuries with their Turkish countrymen turned against them immediately after Russian invasion of the Eastern Turkey. They were cheated by Russians and used in their armies against Turks.
So many hundred thousands of people were massacred in poor Turkish villages including women and children beside the Turkish men who were disarmed by Russian army. This unfortunate dark pages of history needs to be brought to light instead of making comments by good American nation who even does not know where is Erzurum and Kars in Turkish land. Let us leave the decisions to real historians and archieves.
Comment by Memik — March 17, 2009
85. As most of the evidence supporting the "genocide" thesis has been proven to be false and bogus, the evidence is still being used by greedy fortune seeking associations, which would benefit from such political games. The blue book, which Armenians base their claims on, has been proven to be made-up, so that the British government could justify the invasion of Turkey in the eyes of their own people.
Before we think of what has happened, we should look at what WILL happen, what would be the results of this judgment by the congress. Why are "certain" people pushing this to pass in the congress? What benefits could they gain from it? We, people, are being blinded and mislead to believe in a false history of events so a small group of people can fill in their pockets.
If we dont open our eyes and look at what is proposed here and what the results would be, it will be our loss and moreover, a loss for humanity for feeding the hatred between two nations and two races. Nothing is as simple as "oh, here are the facts, let's vote yes/no". Instead of working towards feeding hatred and revenge, we should be looking to improve our relations and quality of life, thus improving the world as a whole by maintaining a model for the whole world.
Comment by Druecke — March 17, 2009
86. "This unfortunate dark pages of history needs to be brought to light instead of making comments by good American nation who even does not know where is Erzurum and Kars in Turkish land."
Indeed. See, for example, the diary of Russian lieutenant-colonel Tverdokhlebof:
http://louisville.edu/a-s/history/turks/Khlebof%20War%20Journal.pdf (English version)
And the report of Captain Emory Niles and Mr. Arthur E. Sutherland, official investigator of US government for Eastern Anatolia in 1919:
http://louisville.edu/a-s/history/turks/Niles_and_Sutherland.pdf
In a 1996 interview to the TRT (Turkish Public TV), Abbas Günes (born in 1897; deceased recently) remembered how his brother was beheaded by Armenian volunteers, in the Kars region, during the WWI:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPsrqDGr6zc
It is important to notice that Kars was a part of Russian Empire between 1878 and 1918: so, the Armenians of Kars were not deported in 1915, and the crimes of Armenian volunteers against Turks within this region can in any way be considered as "acts of revenge".
Comment by Lucrece — March 17, 2009
87. NO
Comment by Nuray Bartoschek — March 17, 2009
88.Oh, this is where all the fanatic history twisting Turks are!
Armenian Genocide is a fact you clowns.
Comment by Paul Summer — March 17, 2009
89. For sure, No
Comment by Ali — March 18, 2009
90. Hi evrybody..
See this from the other side of view a little bit please..
I am just curious.Can somebody explain me this?
Just think of a country in war..Thats what Turkey was in..against to other nations invaded their lands from each side..and they were defending their country..
Up untill then Turks and Armeinians lived on those lands in peace.What have they done when they see all those military forces from Uk-France-Greece ?
They joined the party to hit the Turks from behind just to get a piece of land for themselves..
All of the nations in the world have been in war somehow in old times..some attacked to others..some defended themselves..This means that we accept it or not..All the nations on earth had winners and losers of these wars..The ones who lost,lost also thousands of people..Turkish people lost 295.000 young men in Gelibolu (anzac)to defend their country..who is to answer for this???
Anzacs ? French? Who ???
Turkish people lived everywhere in old centuries..Go back to these years and find out the demokracy applied to Girit-Malteese-Arabs.
They were never forced to anything they dont want to do..They were free as before..
They kept their mother tongue,religion,work,homes and life style.
Ottoman never used those people as slaves..
This was happened in old centuries…
Later on all of those nations created borders and it was accepted by all the others..
Now..we came a long way from those years..
Our world has seen Hitler..French invaded north Africa..We all know what has happened there..
Nl lived in south Africa..Only to use black as slaves..
England did the same in India.
We all know what happened in Bosnia..nobody cared for those poor people
Now..United states in Iraq.Was it really protecting poor people from Saddam ??? Come on..Was it??.Whole world knowes the fact what happened there..It was invasion..People still dye each day..Women give birth to fatherless children..Most of them belongs to American soldiers..
Whats happening in Gazza..Have any nations stopped Israel ?? Anybody cared ???
Now..after all of those facts you really blame Turkish people killing Armenians in the 1 world war ???
I will suggest these people who put the claim in..go back and dig your backround..I am sure you will find very interesting stories there..
Comment by nevin — March 18, 2009
91. NO
Comment by Lütfiye — March 18, 2009
92.This subject is not a matter for governments and politians to resolve or pass judgment on, who are lobbied agressively by the Armenian Diaspora. It is a matter for respectable historians and researchers such as Prof. Justin Mc Carthy and many others who are the experts on this subject and the archives available (and some not yet available because the Armenian governement and Russia have not made them available)to be studied openly. Turkish government has proposed this some 2 years ago and is still waiting for a response.
Surely on a subject as important as this the evidence is more important than the probaganda by the Armenian Diaspora and the views of some gullible polititions.
Comment by b nelson — March 18, 2009
93. "Armenian Genocide is a fact you clowns."
What a strong argumentation. Insult is a typically nationalist Armenian method.
Comment by Lucrece — March 18, 2009
94. I suggest the ones who is talking about "Armenian Genocide" reading the report presented by Hovhannes Katchaznouni on April 1923 at Armenian Dasnaksutyun party meeting at Bucuresti.
Comment by Fikret Karahoda — March 18, 2009
95. The So Called Armenian Genocide Never Took Place…what Took Place In 1915 Was The Self-Defence Of The Turks Against The Armenian Terrorists Who Had Sided Witht The Invading Russian Forces.The Whole Region In The East Became A Terrorist Enclave By The Armenians At The Time To Inflict The Most Despicable And Inhuman Atrocities On The Turkish Population Without Discriinating The Old And Infirmed From The Young And The Babies….They Deserved What They Got At The Time…now What About The American Genocide In Irak Today…???
Turks Defended Themselves With Tooth,Nail,And Anything That They Could Hold On To…in Fact, They, The Baying Armenians Who Had Committed The Real Genocide Against The Turks In The Region Today Are Playing The Innocent!!!
The Turks Had Every Right To Send Them To Hell…lock..Stock..And Barrel…!!
All Those Who Side With The Armenians Today Are As Liers As The The Armenians Themselves…we Will Never Accept This Unfounded Lies And Distortions..So Put It In Your Pipe And Smoke It!!!
Comment by COSKUN TOKTAMIS — March 18, 2009
96. "I suggest the ones who is talking about "Armenian Genocide" reading the report presented by Hovhannes Katchaznouni on April 1923 at Armenian Dasnaksutyun party meeting at Bucuresti."
You are right. An English version of this report is available online:
www.tallarmeniantale.com/1923Manifesto-FULLrecord.htm
Comment by Lucrece — March 18, 2009
97. It is no excuse but it should be remembered that violence always brings more violence. Towards the end of the 19th century european powers eager to disintegrate the Ottoman empire have encouraged ethnic minorities who had peacefully lived together for centuries to revolt. It was the Armenians who started slaugtering muslim subjects of the Ottoman Empire (turks, kurds, laz etc.) literally burning down whole villages. They had to be relocated at a time when world war I was waging. Yes, they have suffered heavy losses during the process but the process of relocating was by no means an attempt to exterminate all Armenians.
Comment by ismail donmez — March 18, 2009
98. You Turks are just afraid to confront your own past. You spend all this time trying to post up your fabricated versions of the story. Well, the rest of the world (including 22 nations, most of whom are far more respected than Turkey - France, Germany, Canada, Russia) have accepted the Armenian Genocide. The noose is tightening over your necks, isn't it?
You Turks are in rabid desperation, trying to hang onto the one thread of hope you have in your denial campaign, the United States.
Well, sooner or later, you're going to lost that frontier as well. The Armenians have fought for nearly a century to survive and to have their greatest suffering recognized by the world, and as small as they are in their numbers (especially because of the Armenian Genocide), their Truth has toppled your lies time and time again.
You may win some battles, but you will NEVER win the war. You're going to have to have much tougher skin to win THAT war, the kind of tough skin that is a product of someone who is a descendent of genocide. You have 8 million of them around the world and they seem to be always outdoing the power of 70 million Turks. That's an interesting fact, isn't it?
Comment by Michael Sermon — March 18, 2009
99. Genocide? What Genocide? It is year 2009, we are talking about 1915!! Why do not you try to live in peace? Turkey and Armenia are NEIGHBOURS, they need to work together, it is time to have PEACE!!! We owe this to the next generations, they do not want to live with the past. They want to be happy with their neighbours. Turkey has so much to offer for Armenians. Hundreds of thousands of Armenians are living happily in Turkey. How do you think they feel when some idiots make a fuss of this in thousands of miles away. Do not you have any respect to your own people? Please let people live in peace!!!
Comment by Altan Demiray — March 18, 2009
# NO
Comment by Kurt — March 19, 2009
101. Dear Member of the Congress,
This is a very contraversial historic issue. According to neutral, unbaised scholars there was a tragedy which occured during a global war. Many have lost their lives on both sides. But this has happened almost a century ago. Therefore, you should rather leave this matter to the scholars to decide. It is a well established fact that politicians make history, scholars write it. Please do not make and write history. On the other hand, currently there is a dialogue going on between Turkey and Armenia. If you pass this resolution it will not contribute to the positive atmosphere prevailng between the two countries. Your passing the resolution will only satisfy the whims of the diaspora Armenians, but not the Armenians of Armenia who are under a very poor economic condition. Establishment of diplomatic relations between Turkey and Armenia will ease the sufferings of these Armenians.
If you are considering to vote "yea", please re-consider your decision and think about the Armenians of Armenia, and not the diaspora Armenians of the United States who are enjoying themselves in Boston, Los Angeles, Chicago, Fresno and what not.
Respectfully,
Candan Azer
Comment by Candan Azer — March 19, 2009
# The only people that think this is a debate are Turks. That's it.
Armenian Genocide is a historic fact. You can try to twist it any way you want, you can try to demonize Armenians with racist comments that stereotype this small race of people, but none of these efforts will gain you any ground in trying to hide the truth.
Comment by Dan Shultz — March 19, 2009
# Dear Lucrece,
This is in response to your comment about "Armenian nationalists always using insulting methods."
First of all, I am not an Armenian, much less an Armenian nationalist. I just happen to be an avid reader of history.
Anybody that knows the history of Turkey knows what kind of racist animals the Turks have been to not only Armenians, but to Greeks, Jews, and everybody else that wasn't a Muslim Turk.
Not only was there a Genocide of Armenians in 1915, time and time again, Turkey has driven out their minorities through oppression and massacre. (read about the Jews in 1942, the Greeks in 1955, the Assyrians in 1918, the Kurds in the 70's till present day)
If I am being insulting to you, it's because I view Turkish nationalists like yourself to be the equivalent of Ku Klux Klan members. There is no difference in the sort of racism and prejudice that you breed.
Comment by Paul Summer — March 19, 2009
# Please do not use the word of 'genocide'. There was no genocide. There was a war. It should be left up to the historians.
Regards,
J.James Hunter
Comment by J.James Hunter — March 19, 2009
# The Armenian Genocide has already been acknowledged by various presidents of the USA, including Ronald Reagan, Theodore Rosevelt, and Woodrow Wilson (the later 2 were in power or alive during the genocide of the Armenians, so that should say a lot).
Yes, Bush 1, 2 and Clinton have been lightweights about such a statement, but even they say "Mass Murder" when referring to what happened to the Armenians in Turkey.
However you look at it, Turkey did something horrible to the Armenians, and the world will never forget that, especially in the face of such lies and denial.
You Turks just make yourself look worse by denying it. If you were gracious enough to apologize for this tremendously evil deed, then I think us in the rest of the world could look at Turkey in a more positive light.
Comment by John Rogers — March 19, 2009
# Politics is good for ruling the country, but not equipped to judge the historical events.
If the Congress wants to know the facts it should form an impartial committe made by historians and not be under pressure of the Armenian lobbies. They are following their own interest rather than historical facts.
In fact there is no animocity among Turks and Armenians who know each other. They know the facts. We are closer to some of our Armenian friends than some of our Turkish friends.
Please do not be lead by the Armanian lobby that follow its own interests, rather than US, Turkish and Armenian interests.
Comment by Sadi Ozkul — March 20, 2009
# If the Congress wants to know the facts it should form an impartial committe made by historians and not be under pressure of the Armenian lobbies. They are following their own interest rather than historical facts.
Those who want to know the facts, they have to go to Turkey just to the East of Turkey, where thousands of innocent Turkish people were mussacred at 1915, First World War.
Comment by Salih Mehmet Ersoy — March 20, 2009
# In response to "Paul Summer",
I am not a Turkish citizen, neither a people of Turkish/Turkic/Ottoman origin, much less a "Turkish nationalist"; and, if I should choose according to the actions of Turkish associations of my country, especially vis-à-vis myself, I would become a fanatic supporter of Armenian nationalists.
For the rest, your words are hate-speech, as usual, and if you we were in a site registered in my country, I would file a complaint against you, like I did the last year against a Dashnak.
You are absolutely unable to use rational arguments and precise references. It is one of the best proofs about the dishonesty of the Armenian side, about this subject.
By this way, I congratulate the Turkish Coalition of America for the creation of the Turkish American Legal Defense Fund. It is an example for the Turks of European Union.
Comment by Lucrece — March 20, 2009
# "However you look at it, Turkey did something horrible to the Armenians"
1) Why to THE Armenians? Almost all the Armenians of Istanbul, Edirne, Izmir, Aydin, Kastamonu, Antalya, Marash, Aleppo, etc. were not resettled during the WWI, and lived in the same conditions than the Muslims. Among the Armenian deportees, an important part remained unmolested during and after the resettlement.
2) What about the crimes of SOME Armenians against Turks, Kurds, Jews, etc., during, before and after the WWI?
Comment by Lucrece — March 20, 2009
# Hey Lucrece,
You speak out of ignorance. You seem to know nothing about world history.
Do you know that there were Jews in Germany AFTER the Holocaust?
There used to be over 2 million Armenians in Turkey, today it's 60,000.
It's hard to talk about this topic with you Turks because you have been lied and brainwashed by your countries false version of history. Join the rest of mankind and read some honest and truthful history books.
Comment by John Rogers — March 20, 2009
# Dear Silly Nonsensical JOHN ROGERS,
There were not 2 million Armenians in the OTTOMAN EMPIRE (the Republic of Turkey did not exist in 1915). However, if you are so sure, cite a source for your population statistic. Better yet, try to cite a non-Armenian source (and that means a non-Armenian author who does not rely on an Armenian source).
As for the number of Turkish citizens today who are ethnic Armenians, the number is much greater than 60,000.
There are over 80,000 Armenians from ARMENIA who live as illegal immigrants in the Republic of Turkey. Add to that the number who are native born Turkish citizens and the number is much greater than the one you just made up.
One should ask why Armenians prefer to live in the Republic of Turkey as illegal immigrants to living in the Republic of Armenia if the Turks are as vile as you claim.
John Rogers, you sound more like the Klu Klux Klan hate merchants your alter ego Paul makes reference to than anyone else who has posted here… in fact, you kind of sound like a typical racial purist Dashnak.
Why don't you tell us about the contingent of Armenian militants who fought alongside the Nazis in WWII and helped them to send Jews to their deaths?
Comment by Hally — March 20, 2009
# Hally, you're full of it. There was no Armenian militants that fought alongside Nazi's in WW2. That's a total lie.
But I'll give you a fact that you could look up. Did you know that in 1942 most of the wealthy Jews in Turkey were put in concentration camps? Fancy that huh…Turkey putting Jews in concentration camps in the middle of the Holocaust. What a great ally.
Also, have you heard about the government sponsored riots of 1955 that drove all the Greeks out of Turkey? That's another fact you could look up.
In fact, there has never been a minority in Turkey that survived because of the innate racist tendencies of the Turkish government.
Again, please come back to me with more of your "facts". I am actually saving a lot of these posts, and using it at my University to site the delusion of denial that the Turkish nation is undergoing at this exact moment. And this message board has been a great study of that. Please do send more. I know way to much about the REAL history of the world and welcome your lies because the more you speak, the more you discredit yourself.
Comment by John Rogers — March 20, 2009
# Btw…what is a "Racial purist Dashnak"? Is this the kind of crap they teach you in your Turkish universities?
It's amazing how deep the denial goes. You have the whole world telling you that according to their records, there was an Armenian Genocide, yet you can't admit it to yourself. Everyone in the world is lying but the Turkish government, is that what you really believe?
And it's all because of this small group of people called the Armenians. Is that a rational thought to you? That countries like Russia, France, and Germany would go on record saying that there was an Armenian Genocide, yet ALL of these countries are lying, and for what?
Why don't you let the healing begin by simply saying sorry, and moving forward, rather than making yourself look like a fool by posting up a fabricated history of lies.
Comment by John Rogers — March 20, 2009
# The 20 countrys that say there was genocide of armenian are under control of armenian agents. Armenian agents take power in France, Russia, Germany and other countrys. Armenian agents make up these lies. They do this because they want to hurt Turkey. The entire world wants to break up Turkish power and this is why they use armenian genocide lie to hurt us. It is because Turkey is great nation on earth. if there was genocide of armenian, we should have killed all. what a mistake to let some live. now they have agents everywhere and want to hurt great Turkey.
Comment by Osman Olgursh — March 20, 2009
# Hey All,
Please Read This Article, Published In "The Jerusalem Post," And Tell Me That There Was Not An Armenian Genocide.
This Is One Of Israel's Most Popular Newspapers.
Yes, All Of You Turks Should Read This.
Www.Jpost.Com/Servlet/Satellite?Cid=1233304667096&Pagename=Jpost/Jparticle/Showfull
Now Add 22 Countries, The European Parliament, 42 Of 50 Us States, And If You Still Believe That There Wasn't An Armenian Genocide, Then You Should Probably Go To A Doctor And Get Some Medication, Because That's Called Serious Delusion.
Sincerely,
John Rogers
Comment by John Rogers — March 20, 2009
# Mr. John Rogers:
You have got to tell us what you're smoking!! You are hilarious in your stupidity and fabrications! You've obviously made a fool of yourself many times before since it doesn't seem to phase you! You're making a fool of yourself now! You really don't have a clue as to what you're talking about, do you?! You state that there were no Armenians working with the Nazi's during WWII! For your edification, there was an infamous Nazi Whermacht Unit called the 812th Battalion, comprised of over 20,000 volunteer ARMENIANS!
They were commanded by a psychotic bloodthirsty Dashnak Armenian named General Dro (infamous for his slaughtering of thousands of innocent Turks during WWI). The 812th Battalion operated in the Northern Caucuses and the Crimean regions. They would round up thousands of Jews, and those that they didn't outright savagely torture and murder, they sent off to the concentration camps for certain death! Also Mr. Rogers, in Berlin, from 1938-1944, there were numerous Armenian newspapers and magazines that were continuously published, praising Hitler's extermination of the Jews, making countless anti-semetic statements and caricatures! Armenians then, as now, claim that they are the pure "Arryian Race"! Hitler even annointed them as such! As an example, please examine the Armenian Youth Federation (AYF). This is a hate indoctrination camp to brainwash the Armenian youth in the US!
They are located in two main regions (east and west coast) and are patterned after the Hitler Youth Camps before and during WWII, right down to their swaztika-like armbands and their tassled flags, as well as their uniforms (tan to brown shorts with long-sleeved shirts)! Check out their website for yourself. BTW, countries such as Sweden's Paliament, just a few months ago, by a large number, declared that THERE WAS NO ARMENIAN GENOCIDE!! Other countries are slowly following suit. I noticed that all you do is talk but can not produce anything to back up your claims. And let's cut the bull once and for all, okay! You state that you are not an Armenian. Yeah, right!
Your statements are TYPICAL of an Armenian based here in the US! I dealt with scum like you far too long. I can "smell" you a mile away (and if you're an Armenian from Glendale, CA…then YOU ACTUALLY CAN BE SMELLED FROM AT LEAST A MILE AWAY!!!). So deny all you want. Finally, if we Turks are guilty of what you Armenians falsely charge us with, then you SHOULD easily provide us all here with at least one court verdict that was in your favor! Surely you can do that, can't you! Any verdict, by any court, anywhere! You shouldn't have any problems producing any of these DOCUMENTED, unaltered court verdicts ruled in your favor! We shall all be waiting for you to produce said documents, or at the very least, a link to a CREDIBLE source! Until then, please read my other comment above (#28).
My family lived and survived the horrors of the mass atrocities committed by the Dashnak Armenians against innocent Turks! So, until you take the time to actually read a non-biased book Mr. Rogers (assuming that you can read and not rely solely on what your desperate Armenian brethren have told you (just like your "hero" Henry Morgenthau in Istanbul during WWI)), please stay out of my neighborhood! One more thing Mr. Rogers, we are accused of killing 1.5 million Armenians. since there were no concentration camps, no rail systems to exclusively haul thousands of Armenians to an extermination site, no crematoriums to burn said bodies, no bodies were thrown into the rivers since they ultimately would have ended up far down stream (where the British already were in Iraq and Syria…no reports of mass amounts of bodies washing up anywhere in those regions from anyone there), no mass graves containg solely Armenian bodies (keeping in mind that during the relocation process, many more Muslims than Armenians died, and thus were commonly buried in common graves together along the route), the question that
I pose to you is this…1.5 million is a large number. Please explain to all of us here just WHERE ALL OF THESE BODIES ARE? We'll wait! And see if you can get your numbers straight (on various sites on the internet, Armenians are now claiming that the number is 2 million! These fluctuations are almost as bad as the New York Stock Exchange!).
Comment by Robert — March 20, 2009
# Democrats has NO excuse anymore and they can not blame on Bush anymore. They control congress, Senate and White House and it's a shame if they can not push this resolution through.
since Obama has become a president most of his promises has been just a promises and he plays with the words. I hope he will not dare to play with the words when it comes to Armenian Genocide.
If Obama beaks his promise, it will be one more on his list of broken promises. There is a blog dedicated to his broken promises.. Check this out:
www.obamasgaffes.blogspot.com
Comment by frieda — March 20, 2009
# Hey….It's almost 9 a.m. in Istanbul. Here come the Turks!
Teach me some of that fuzzy history…
Comment by John Rogers — March 21, 2009
# "what is a "Racial purist Dashnak"?"
The Dashnaks by themselves:
"The Racial Religious believes in his racial blood as a deity. Race above everything and before everything. Race comes first. Everything is for the race."
Nejdeh, foundator of the Tzeghagron, currently called Armenian Youth Federation, i.e., the young organization of the Dashnak Party.
"Today Germany and Italy are strong because as a nation they live and breathe in terms of race."
"Hairenik Weekly", April 10, 1936.
"And came Adolf Hitler, after herculean struggles. He spoke to the racial heart strings of the German, opened the fountain of his national genius, struck down the spirit of defeatism… At no period since the World War had Berlin conducted so realistic, well organized, and planned policy as now, since Hitler’s assumption to power… And whatever others may think concerning Hitlerism and Fascism as a system of Government, it is proved that they have revitalized and regenerated the two states, Germany and Italy."
"Hairenik Weekly", September 17, 1936.
"And the type of Jew who is imported to Palestine is not anything to be proud about. Their loose morals, and other vices which were unknown to the Arabs prior to the Belfour Declaration, on top of all communistic activities, were the cause of most of the Arab criticism."
"Hairenik Weekly", September 25, 1936.
And more recently:
"Honoring the legacy of Soghomon Tehlirian is evidence once again that the Armenian Genocide is a pan-Armenian issue; it has been memorialized in Armenia and the Diaspora, just as the national symbols (including the Armenian flag and national anthem) and heroes such as Tehlirian, Dro, and Nejdeh are celebrated."
"The Armenian Weekly", editorial, april 2001 (http://www.hairenik.com/armenianweekly/april/editorial001.html).
Not: Dro was the chief of the Dashnak unit which arrested Soviet Jews for the Nazis during WWII.
Comment by Lucrece — March 21, 2009
# During the demonstration of April 23, 2002 and April 23, 2003, the young Dashnaks of Erevan burned several Turkish flags with a David star.
A photo of 2003:
www.tetedeturc.com/home/IMG/jpg/Drapeau_turc_et_etoile_David_brules_par_militants_armeniens.jpg
Racism against Turks and anti-Semitism are frequently mixed within the meaning of Near East Christian extremists, especially the nationalist Armenians.
Comment by Lucrece — March 21, 2009
# "Please Read This Article, Published In "The Jerusalem Post," And Tell Me That There Was Not An Armenian Genocide."
Please read this other article published by the same newspaper:
www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1188392527835&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter
Comment by Lucrece — March 21, 2009
# "Please explain to all of us here just WHERE ALL OF THESE BODIES ARE? We'll wait!"
Good remark. From the 1960's to the late 1990's, the Armenian Revolutionary Federation was very close to the Syrian dictatorship. The ASALA was close to Syrian dictatorship, and to the Saddam Hussein regime.
When the Armenian terrorist started, during the 1970's, there were several thousands of old Armenians, who accused the Turks/Kurds/Circassians/Arabs of massacres. Why the ARF and the ASALA did not sent a staff of archeologists, with these (real or alleged) witnesses in Syria and Irak? Many of them lived in Lebanon, some lived even in Syria or Irak.
On the other hand, Turkish archeologists found several thousands of squelettons, in Eastern Turkey, since 1986, thanks to the testimony of old Turks and thanks to archive documents; they can prove that these peoples were Turks killed by Christian, because there are several objects such Corans in the mass graves, and material evidence of assassination (bullets, broken skulls, traces of burning):
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Acsn-De8vCQ
www.tbmm.gov.tr/yayinlar/yayin1/7-Konukcu(143-154).pdf
Comment by Lucrece — March 21, 2009
# It's funny how during the daytime in the USA, nobody posts anything negative about Armenians up on this post. Then, right around the time that Turkey wakes up, you see all the new posts talking bad things about Armenians.
That should tell you something about where the negativity and hated comes from.
Lucrece, I feel sad for you, I really do. You are a brain washed Turk spreading the lies of your government. Nothing you say makes sense. You keep putting up these quotes that have no meaning, or that are simply lies.
Over here, in the USA, we have many Armenians and they are good citizens that work hard.
I could see why these Armenians had a hard time living in the Turkish Ottoman Empire. It's hard for such a civilized people to live amongst Turk savages who lack education and knowledge of the world. It's funny that 100 years later, nothing has changed.
Keep sending these posts. They are good for a good laugh and make for great Turkish jokes (that's when we sit around and laugh about Turkish people).
Comment by Ryan — March 21, 2009
# Dear Ryan,
I am sorry to see that you have not studied the entire Ottoman Empire history.Turks has never hated or discriminated any other nation or minority living among them during the empire and also in modern Turkey. Do you know how many generals (pasha),ministers and administrators has been in the staff of Ottoman empire ? They were highly respected by sultans and even in important posts in administration.There were milions of intermarriages between Turks and Armenians. At present time ,modern Turkey; do you know how many rich succesfull business men, professors, factory owner, manufacturer who lives happily in this country of Armenian origin ? Do you also know that Turkish government is continously getting to close relations with Armenia who needs co-operation with Turkey economically and geographically ? And do you know most people in Armenia is not in the same idea with diaspora ?
What you call genocide is an obligatory migration with bad casualties and it was done to protect Armenian people from the bloody war consequences. Peacefull relations with Anatolian Armenians turning against their own countrymen Turks after Russian invasion and provocation in Eastern Anatolia started the problem.
Turks are not savages and uncivilized as you described.How a nation thousands year old, becomes an empire and even teaches many things to Europe in centuries can be salvage and uneducated. I recommend you to study more of unbiased history in this subject and please spent a visit to Turkey for vacation to see by your own eyes if we are really salvages or one of the most hospitable nation in world.
If ancient bloodshed comes to discussion, can you tell me which community remains immune in Europe, Americas and elsewhere. We should rather look ahead to create more peacefull and happy lives for our coming generations.
Comment by Faruk Memik — March 22, 2009
# Faruk, I am sorry that you are a brainwashed Turk.
What you are saying is a complete lie. You know why? Here is a simple stat. Prior to 1915, Turkey (Ottoman Empire) had a population that was 20 % minorities. Today, the minority population is 0.5%.
What happened? In 1896, and 1915, most of the Armenians were massacred (yes, it happened in 1896 as well, so don't tell me that this was part of a deportation plan).
Also, at the same time, many of the Greeks and Assyrians were massacred.
In 1942, most of the Jews were driven out through unfair taxation and the threat of landing in Turkish Concentration camps, and in 1955, most of the Greeks were driven out through government organized Riots.
It's sad that the Turkish history they teach you in Turkey leaves out all the fanatic racism that has made Turkey into a one race, one religion society lacking any diversity.
And Turkey is not a nation "1000's of years old". This is the biggest lie that they teach you. Armenia is the nation that's 1000's of years old. Turkish people didn't even exist prior to the 10th century. Yes, there was mongol tribes and Turkic tribes, but the Turkish nation, as it is now, is the result of many brutal massacres and genocides, and the theft of lands.
Sorry to break the news to you…but unfortunately they don't seem to be teaching you the REAL history of Turkey.
Comment by Ryan — March 22, 2009
# Ryan:
It appears that you and Mr. Rogers are shaped from the same mold. You surely must have read by this time the posted 127 comments (including yours). Now, considering all of these posted comments, here is a very simple question for you (as well as for your other brainwashed moronic Dashnak Armenian brethren & their equally uneducated, sheep-like followers/supporters)…
How many of these posts supporting the Turkish contention that the Dashnak Armenians have pulled off the biggest con job of the 20th Century (via lies, fabrications, forgeries, exagerations, alterations of original documents, threats, intimidations, character assinations, disinformation, fire bombing of the homes of authors with clear evidence of oppossition, bribery, scams, slander, corruption, hate indoctrination of Armenian youth leading to early brainwashing, assault, arson, attempted murder and murder) against the world's Christian nations for the past 100 years, do so by providing facts (to back them up) that can be easily researched from all of the world's OPEN archives (with the glaring exceptions of the archives in Yerevan (Armenia) and the Armenian Revolutionary archives of 1886 in Boston, MA), as well as links to various other sources of proof (ALL in a CIVILIZED manner)…VS…Those pro-Dashnak Armenian posts which mearly spew out a constant and continuous stream of hatred, abuse, slander, lies, misinformation, ignorance, unsupported/unsubstantiated statements, as well as an obvious desperation fueled by the continuous fear that the real TRUTH will eventually arise for the entire planet to witness (just like the legendary PHOENIX)? Compare the CIVILITY of one group with the other.
You and your group call us a variety of insultive and derogatory "terms". You accuse us of being uneducated! Yet, it is you and your group that show your ignorance and disrespect repeatedly! When all of this is taken into account, it becomes quite evident that you and your side have no real credibility (you never really had any in the first place!), but worse than that, everything that you have accused us of has now been shown to be, in reality, simply a mirror image of YOU! Truly, you and your pathetic ilk are to be pitied! It's pointless for anyone from our side to further discuss anything with anyone from your group (you couldn't understand it anyway, nor are you worth wasting our time on)! Perhaps one day you may become enlightened, but sadly, it obviously won't be anytime soon!
Comment by Robert — March 22, 2009
# Hey Robert,
You can call me all the names you want, and the only thing that does is demonstrait that you can't argue with your intellect, and therefore you have to resort to name calling.
Well, I am not going to stoop to your level because here in the west, we're civilized, and we use FACTS to discuss and debate, not name calling and LIES.
I have stated the facts, and that is that Turkey is a racist nation that has liquidated all of their minorities. You can call me all the names you want, but that's not going to change historical FACTS. All one has to do is read about the series of UGLY EVENTS that led to the minority population of Turkey falling from 20% in 1915, to 0.5% in 2009.
And guess what, what I believe is the consensus of all respected historians, not brain washed Turks who believe in a false version of history that NO OTHER NATION ON THE PLANET BELIEVES. So I have the popular consensus of the world behind me, while you have ZERO.
The biggest lie that your own government sold you in that this small group of people called the Armenians can do all of the things that you stated above (oppression, bribery, corruptions, etc). Luckily enough, the Turkish people are stupid enough to buy it.
What makes the West so "progressive" while countries like Turkey are considered "backwards"? When our government lies to us, we fight the lies (example: George W. Bush). Countries like Turkey on the other hand successfully take away people's freedom of speech (Example: Article 301), and they create lies about history (Example: The Entire Turkish History) and the people are STUPID enough to buy it.
That's why the West leads, and your country follows.
Comment by Ryan — March 22, 2009
# One must first know the meaning of genocide before accusing a nation with this crime. Only the Armenians living in East Anatolia and fighting alongside the occupying foreign forces were deported. Other Armenians in West Anatolia who did not try to hit the Turks from their backs continued to live in their homeland. The crimes of some Armenians in those days is unbelieavable.
I heard from my mother that her grandmother's sister's breasts were cut so that she could not feed her baby son. If two million Armenians were killed, there would not be an Armenian diasphora. Turks are not racists, they regard every human being as equal whether they are white or black, Muslim or Christian. They do not have a past history of killing Indians or an underground organization as KLU KLUX KLAN. There is a saying amongst the peoples of former Ottoman territories. "Peace is gone after Ottomans left."
This is a fact even at present. If diasphora is so keen about their Armenian counterparts they should help the Armenian nation who is suffering economically, rather than feed the lobbysts. There are more than 40000 Armenians working illegally in Turkey because they cannot find jobs in their own country. Furthermore, such accusations as genocide will dramatically hamper the ongoing discussions between the Turkish and Armenian states in order to establish healthy neighbourly relations. Archives prove the facts and not the politicians. What about the GENOCIDE against Turkish diplomats carried by the Armenian terrorist Organization ASALA? Turks and Armenians were dead durıng the first World War due to fighting,famine and sickness. But the Turkish Ambassadors and so many Turkish diplomats were cruelly assassinated by Armenian terrorists just because they were Turkish nationals. Such a great hatred and revenge after so many years.
Comment by Yurdanur Aksoylar Çetirge — March 22, 2009
# A brief NO to genocide.
Comment by Yurdanur Aksoylar Çetirge — March 22, 2009
# Some Points to Consider
a. The US government in 1915 had no doubts in its mind that the "atrocities" would conform to the currently accepted legal definition of genocide, a word coined by Raphael Lemkin some 20 or so years later. One of the most critical elements is that the annihilation must be systematic and organized at the state level. This fact is attested to in the Morgenthau diary (then US ambassador to Turkey).
b. France was also threatened by Turkey in the leadup to that nation's recognition of the Armenian Genocide. They called Turkey's bluff and passed the resolution anyway, and never suffered any of the threatened consequences.
c. Turkey has been at best a recalcitrant "ally" in the war on Iraq. Don't forget that Turks were in Iraq and on the wrong side of the conflict, killing Kurds in the North less than two years ago.
d. There is currently diplomacy between the leaders of Armenia and of Turkey. They are both optimistic about the potential for the effects of this diplomacy on commerce and travel. However, the Armenian president has been very clear in statements issued to the press that he supports US House resolutions to recognize the Armenian Genocide.
e. Please do not characterize intense global support of the recognition of the Armenian Genocide as completely contained within the US Armenian lobbying organization. If they were as powerful as people intimate, the recognition would have been a done deal 20 years ago.
f. Ask yourself what a country that assassinates an Armenian-Turk journalist that openly discusses the genocide (Hrant Dink) and has a law on the books, punishable by hard time in a Turkish prison (seen Midnight on the Orient Express), against "Insulting Turkishness"…ask yourself what is the reason for the intense repression of what…Armenian lies????
Comment by Grant — March 22, 2009
# Grant, you're the man bro! See, you make sense. You come across as a man that knows what you are talking about. Thank you for your post.
Comment by Vee Patrick — March 23, 2009
# Since Turkish commenters are called liers by some in this site, I would like to offer a short passage from "falsified Genocide" of American history PROFESSOR JUSTIN McCARTHY on the subject;
The history of the Armenian-Turkish conflict is complicated and contentious, impossible to describe accurately in statements of one-sided guilt such as that presently before Congress.
Ethnic conflict between Turks and Armenians actually began more than 100 years before World War I. Actions of the Russian Empire precipitated the conflict. In 1800, Armenians were scattered within and beyond a region that now encompasses Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, and Eastern Turkey. In all but small districts, Armenians were a minority which had been under Muslim, primarily Turkish, rule for 700 years. The Russian Empire had begun the imperial conquests of the Muslim lands south of the Caucasus Mountains. One of their main weapons was the transfer of populations — deportation. They ruthlessly expelled whole Muslim populations, replacing them with Christians whom they felt would be loyal to a Christian government. Armenians were a major instrument of this policy. Like others in the Middle East, the primary loyalty of Armenians was religious. Many Armenians resented being under Muslim rule, and they were drawn to a Christian State and to offers of free land (land which had been seized from Turks and other Muslims). A major population exchange began. In Erivan Province (today the Armenian Republic) a Turkish majority was replaced by Armenians. In other regions such as coastal Georgia, Circassia, and the Crimea, other Christian groups were brought in to replace expelled Muslims. There was massive Muslim mortality—in some cases up to one-third of the Muslims died.
The Russians expelled 1.3 million Muslims from 1827 to 1878. One result of this migration, serving the purposes of the Russians, was the development of ethnic hatred and ethnic conflict between Armenians and Muslims. Evicted Muslims who had seen their families die in the Russian Wars felt animosity toward Armenians. Armenians who hated Muslim rule looked to the Russians as liberators. Armenians cooperated with Russian invaders of Eastern Anatolia in wars in 1828, 1854, and 1877. When the Russians retreated, Armenians feared Muslim retaliation and fled. Hatred grew on both sides.
The situation was exacerbated by rebellions of Armenian revolutionaries in the 1890s in which cities in Eastern Anatolia were seized and many Muslims and Armenians were killed. Intercommunal warfare between Turks and Armenians in Azerbaijan during the Russian Revolution of 1905 added to the peoples’ distrust of each other. Muslims and Armenians were now divided into sides, antagonists. Each group believed that in a war they would be killed if they did not kill first, a classic self-fulfilling prophecy. Most Muslims and most Armenians had no wish to be a part of this, but they were caught in the awful consequences of their expectations and their history.
Intercommunal war erupted when the Ottoman Empire entered World War I. Armenian revolutionaries, many trained in Russia, attempted to seize main Ottoman cities in Eastern Anatolia. They took the city of Van and held it until Russia invaders arrived, killing all but a few of the Muslims of the city and surrounding villages. In the countryside, Muslim tribesmen killed the Armenians who fell into their hands. Armenian and Kurdish bands killed throughout the East, and massacre was the rule of the time. Russian and Ottoman regular troops were less murderous, but they too gave little quarter to those viewed as the enemy. Some of the worst civilian deaths of Turks and Armenians came at the end of the war. The killing went on until 1920. Many more died of starvation and disease than from bullets.
The results were among the worst seen in warfare. More than forty per cent of the Anatolian Armenians died; similar mortality was the fate of the Muslims of the war zone. In the province of Van, for example, 60% of the Muslims were lost by war’s end.
During the war, each side engaged in de facto deportations of the other. When the Russians and Armenians triumphed, all the Muslims were exiled, as were all the Armenians when the Ottomans triumphed. The Ottoman government also organized an official deportation of Armenians in areas under their control. None of these deportations was wholly justified by wartime necessity, but the deportations were not acts of one-sided genocide on the part of either Turks or Armenians.
A One-Sided Accusation
It is the Muslim actions against Armenians that have been called genocide, an accusation that is primarily based on counting only the Armenian dead, not the Muslim dead. I do not believe the Ottoman government ever intended a genocide of Armenians. This conclusion is based on both evidence and logic:
• Of the masses of secret deportation orders seen to date, not one orders murder. Instead, they order Ottoman officials to protect deported Armenians. It has been argued that the Ottomans must have sent out another set of secret orders, contradicting the first set of secret orders, which were a subterfuge. This assumes that the Ottomans deliberately confused their own officials in wartime so that future historians would be fooled—a more than unlikely proposition.
• Large Armenian populations, such as those of Istanbul and other major cities, remained throughout the war. These were areas where Ottoman power was greatest and genocide would have been easiest. To decide whether genocide was intended, it is instructive to compare this to the Nazi genocide of the Jews. The Jews of Berlin were killed, their synagogues defiled. The Armenians of Istanbul lived through the war, their churches open.
• Another telling argument against genocide is that hundreds of thousands of Armenians survived deportation to the Arab World. If genocide were intended, it must be believed that the Ottomans could not manage to kill them, even though these Armenians were completely under Ottoman control for three years. This is not believable.
It was in fact in the regions where Ottoman control was weakest that columns of Armenian deportees suffered most. The stories of the time give many examples of columns of hundreds of Armenians guarded by perhaps two government guards. When the columns were attacked by tribesmen or bandits Armenians were robbed and killed. It must be remembered that these tribes were those who had themselves suffered greatly at the hands of Armenians and Russians. Were the Ottomans guilty? They were guilty of not properly protecting their citizens. Given the situation of the time, with Turks and Kurds fighting for their lives against Russians and Armenians, this is understandable, although it is never excusable for a government not to protect its people. Conditions are best illustrated in the Van province, where Muslim mortality was greatest. The central government ordered the Van governor to send gendarmes, rural policemen, to guard columns of Armenian deportees. He responded that he had 40 gendarmes at his disposal—all the others were fighting at the Russian Front. The 40 gendarmes were protecting Muslim villages against Armenian attacks. He refused to let the Muslims be killed by Armenians so that Armenians could be protected from Muslims.
While Ottoman weakness should be censured, should we not also ask how well Armenians and Russians protected the Turks and Kurds who fell under their control? The answer is that in provinces such as Van, where intercommunal fighting was fiercest, Muslims who could not escape from Armenian bands were killed. Virtually the entire Muslim population of southeast and far eastern Anatolia either became refugees or died. Like the deportation of Armenians, this too was a deportation with great mortality. It should also be recorded when the evils of deportation are considered.
Few of the historical questions raised by the Muslim-Armenian conflict can be answered in a short description such as the above, nor can they be answered by Congressional votes. Why then has the Congress sometimes in the past voted condemnation of one side in the conflict?
For Further Objective Information Please Refer To ;
www.tallarmeniantale.com/background.htm
Comment by Memik — March 23, 2009
# I dont belive that people are writing, claiming in a such stupidity. I also lived in Russia and had seen many Armenians. They were trying to live and survive which every human being does, so nothing wrong with that. And they were complaining about the life in Erivan and other cities in Armenia.
Therefore, for Armenians, they better try to focus and improve human rights for themselves in their own country, respect elderly, and create a much better working conditions for Armenians. Most probably Armenians who have never seen Armenia, the story about what happened or not happened may look very appealing.
Again, for both Armenians and Turks, but particularly Armenians because of the conditions of their country, they need to focus on economy, human rights, and development of their countries.
By the way, in addition, both sides, particularly who live in USA, they better focus on their life in USA and deal and try to solve their domesctis problems(such as recession and other things…) here in USA.
IT IS TIME TO STOP THE BS THINGS.Time to think outside of the box. By making absurd points and statements such as "oovvvvvvv one first must recognize…. labalblalblalb in order to move forward…llabababllab"
STOP THE BS.
Regards to all.
Comment by Tom — March 23, 2009
# For some reason my comment was not published!!!!!
Comment by Tom — March 23, 2009
# Hey Ryan:
Facts talk; BS walks!! Did you even bother to read my initial comment (#28)? Obviously not! First of all, I didn't call YOU any names. This tactic that YOU use is right out of the Dashnak Armenian manual, used when they are cornered and in desperation…blame the author without even having read his material (i.e. Me, Justin McCarthy, Samuel Weems, etc.
Sound familiar?), and then blame the victims of their horrible atrocities! My grandfather's family were survivors of the genocide committed against the Turks by the Dashnak Armenians in Van (25K were killed within a 48 hour period!)! He lost many of his family members, friends & neighbors. Luckily, he and what remained of his family, were able to document the entire event, IN DETAIL! These are now archived but will soon be used when criminal and civil charges are brought against Armenia and their Dashnak party! Why do you and your
Armo ilk conviniently forget these important details? You know the answer as well as I do…YOU CAN NEVER ALLOW THE OTHER SIDE TO BE REVEALED TO THE WORLD! To do so would be a disaster to you Armos…No more free handouts; no more money coming in that you have no intention of EVER paying back; no more trying to get other nations to do your "dirty work" for you! Also, since you are so anamored by these savages (sound's like you, Grant and Roger are three peas in a pod…ALL of you are Armos in reality [You're not really fooling anyone, you know!]), I hate to burst your "love bubble", but the World Court in The Hague issued an arrest warant last year for the commanders of the massacre of innocent, defenseless Azeri civillians in Khojaly, Azerbaijan in 1992! They are hiding in Armenia, like all typical Dashnak Armenias, but will eventually be found and brought to trial!
You mention Harant Dink. Let me tell you a little something about your "hero". Suppose that I were the mirror image of Mr. Dink and I lived in Yerevan (a turkish journalist writing a newspaper in both Turkish and Armenian). Now, practically every day, I wrote inflammatory remarks about the Armenian people and their country as well. Remember, I'm here in their country, eating their food and drinking their water, having them treat me as one of their own, etc.
Yet, I'm still writing deragatory comments such as "Armenian blood is not red, but is as black as ink" (actual remarks (except that he used Turkish instead of Armenian) made by Mr. Dink in one of his articles in Istanbul). Now, I continue doing this for several years. What is the probability that after a while, some Armenians are going to start getting upset about my insultive remarks/comments? Further, what are the odds that someone is ultimately going to get so upset that they'll say "enough of this BS", go get a gun, knife, bomb, whatever, and make an attempt on my life? Finally, How many Armenians would even come out to mourn my passing in Yerevan? How many Turks are even living there? Sadly,
I'd be lucky if a couple of midgets and a whino even showed up for me! In Istanbul, there were thousands of Turks that were in the streets mourning. Since there are thousands of Armenians living in Istanbul, many were out there as well. Now, given this scenario, which ones are "civilized" and which ones are not? And since we're on the topic, let's talk about the cold-blooded murders of a hundred or more innocent people world-wide by your Armenian terrorist groups (ASALA, JCAG, etc.) throughout the 1970's and 1980's. Mourad Topalian was an ASALA terrorist who became the head of ANCA. We all know that the Armenian Orthodox church sheltered many of these terrorists by arming them and helping them to flee! To this day, there has never been a single utterance of condemnation by the Armenian Orthodox church against any of the Armenian terrorist murders! NOT ONE!!
Why do you think that is? Are you going to deny that these terrorist actions ever occurred? Or are you going to claim that (this one is my personal favorite) these actions were "justified"!? To this day, Armenian terorists are in the Bekkah Valley in Lebanon, training the terrorist group PKK! Intelligence reports have tracked funding for this operation as originating from Armenian Orthodox Churches! Greek Orthodox Churches also are a contributing factor, although they like to fund the Greek Cypriot EOKA terrorist faction! BTW, Grant mentions Lemkin as coining the term genocide some 20 years after 1915. Hey Grant, first of all, Lemkin came up with that term in the late 1940's (1948).
Secondly, the UN states that the Armenian claims do not meet the requirements to even qualify for the use of the term "genocide" (look it up yourself)! In a nutshell, you Armos are way out of your league here! Inuendos and scraps of useless "information" from you just isn't going to cut it! When you and your Armo cowards can actually grow a pair, and open to the world the closed Armenian archives, then come and see us. Until then, don't waste our time! This site is for the big dogs, not the lightweight toy mutts of your caliber! In the mean time, take your thumbs out of your bums and take a few moments to read the serious comments on this site. Who knows, you may actually learn something (though, you and I know that will never happen)! Ciao.
Comment by Robert — March 23, 2009
# If I wanted to take history lessons from a backwards country…
Comment by Harold — March 24, 2009
# "…The Armenians did exterminate the entire Muslim population of Russian Armenia as Muslims were considered inferior to the Armenians by the prominent leaders of the Dashnaks."
Source: Mikael Kaprilian, Armenian revolutionary leader, in Yerevan, 1919.
Let historians show you the Armenian war crimes that biased scholars or media today will not.
"…There is little news from the interior save that the Russians have entered Van. The contingent is mostly composed of Armenian volunteers who fight with desperate courage, but whose excesses have shocked even the Russian commanders."
Source: Lewis Einstein, "Inside Constantinople – A [Diplomat's] Diary During the Dardanelles Expedition, April-September, 1915,". 1917, p. 68; John Murray, London.
Armenian war crimes then belie Armenian genocide claims now.
"…Many massacres were committed by the Armenians until our army arrived in Erzurum… (after General Odesilitze left) 2,127 Muslim bodies were buried in Erzurum's center. These are entirely men. There are ax, bayonet and bullet wounds on the dead bodies. Lungs of the bodies were removed and sharp stakes were struck in the eyes. There are other bodies around the city…"
Source: Official telegram of the Third Royal Army Command, addressed to the Supreme Command, March 19, 1918; ATASE Archive of General Staff, Archive No: 4-36-71. D. 231. G.2. K. 2820. Dos.A-69, Fih.3.
Why is no one talking about Armenian war crimes? and terrorism? and betrayal? and treason? Why does the AFATH (Armenian falsifiers and Turk haters) community insist on leaving half the story out? They are afraid that their bogus genocide claims will be exposed? Is it any use? Can fear of death stop the eventuality of death?
"…We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the Tartars (Turks), and then proceeded in the work of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stones and dust, and when the villages became untenable and the inhabitants fled from them into the fields, bullets and bayonets completed the work."
Source: Ohanus Appressian, describing incidents in 1919; Memoirs of an Armenian officer, Men are Like That, 1926.
Still doubt Armenian war crimes?
"…The Moslems who did not succeed in escaping [the city] were put to death…"
Source: Grace H. Knapp, The Tragedy of Bitlis, Fleming H. Revell Co., New York (1919) , page 146.
Here is the civil war that no one talks about. The descendants of those Armenian murderers now attempt to distort history in this very column.
All the Governments that have said there is a Armenian genocide - like France, Germany, Russia - are run by Armenian spies. Armenian spies have also taken over USA government, and this is why they put Armenian resolution in congress.
# Turkey is greatest nation in the world. Western powers try to destroy Turkey, this is why they make up Armenian genocide lie. Obama is puppet of Armenian spies.
The last two comments are not by me, but by an Armenian. His calls himslef jda, but feels comfortable hiding behind many fake names, among them manukyan, pierre, hasan, burcu, bob from UK, bill from canada, el mexicano… He lies so much that I nicknamd him pinocchian. But when he boasted about his lies, I finally smelled the RAT in ARARAT !
# Here you see first hand how the Armenians manipulate the media to shape piblic opinion: via impersonations, falsifications, exaggerations, omissions, and outright lies. That's how the Armenian managed to get 145 anti-Turkish tall tales published in the New York Times in 1915. Most of them were written by people like the RAT IN ARARAT above. That's how Armenian duped the public in 1915 and that's how they are still doing it today: through falsifications.
Comment by Ergun Kirlikovali — March 25, 2009
# Ergun:
I too have dealt with the RAT. He has many guises. He is easy to ferret out though. BTW, you're doing a great job. I sent you some material and received a mailer demon. I'll try again soon. We know each other. Take care kardesim.
STG
Comment by Robert — March 25, 2009
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Comments
Progeny 2009-03-12
My great-grandfather sat in the Ottoman Parliament of 1877-1878. He had been given a title by the Sultan. His cousin had the title of Pasha and was a national Minister. My grandfather sat on the city council of the city where they lived. They were manufacturers and food producers. They were not revolutionaries in any way. The Young Turks decided in 1910 to eliminate the Armenians in Eastern Anatolia, including women, elderly and infants. The Governor of the Province, Mehmet Reshid, who considered Armenians to be vermin who had to be eradicated, had them taken out of the city and disemboweled. I exist today solely because my grandmother and her children were on a vacation at the time their community was "cleansed of Armenians."
Chris 2009-03-12
The NY times just had a huge story on how talat pasha one of the leaders of the ottoman empire who was in charge of the genocide actually noted in his personal journal that ~1000000 Armenians just disappeared! The Genocide should be recognized because it happened and we should not forget history.
Turkic-American 2009-03-12
I am not sure why the U.S. Congress is a body for legislating history. If the charges of genocide against Turkey are substantial, why aren't they presented to International Criminal Court or the International Court of Justice, to be addressed in a manner similar to cases in Sudan, Bosnia, etc. If Armenian side holds confidence that the events of 1915-1918 in Eastern Anatolia shall be termed as a genocide in its initial 1948 definition, why refrain so much from opening a public debate between Turkey and Armenia, Turkish and Armenian communities, organizing scholarly research groups, investigate history. This in my mind would bring both justice and healing, rather than one-sided attempts to force U.S. legislature accept laws without proper and, most importantly, impartial research or investigation. Why not use the experience in case of bringing justice to Holocaust survivors? There were Nuremberg trials, those responsible were identified and punished. Why not hold similar tribunal or bring in professionals in the field from both sides, rather than blackmail and intimidate through legislature. The most concerning is how Armenian-American lobbying groups prioritize interests of Armenia over the interest of the United States, whether in regards to Turkey, Azerbaijan or other regional countries. And doing so, they damage both Armenian-Turkish dialog as well as further punish impoverished and isolated Armenia. None of these "activists" is willing to live in the Republic of Armenia and suffer the consequences of continued isolation, socio-economic disaster in Armenia.
Lucrece 2009-03-12
The Blois appeal: "Concerned about the retrospective moralization of history and intellectual censure, we call for the mobilization of European historians and for the wisdom of politicians. History must not be a slave to contemporary politics nor can it be written on the command of competing memories. In a free state, no political authority has the right to define historical truth and to restrain the freedom of the historian with the threat of penal sanctions. We call on historians to marshal their forces within each of their countries and to create structures similar to our own, and, for the time being, to individually sign the present appeal, to put a stop to this movement toward laws aimed at controlling history memory. We ask government authorities to recognize that, while they are responsible for the maintenance of the collective memory, they must not establish, by law and for the past, an official truth whose legal application can carry serious consequences for the profession of history and for intellectual liberty in general. In a democracy, liberty for history is liberty for all." http://www.lph-asso.fr/actualites/42.html
Lucrce 2009-03-12
The "genocide" claims are: — A thesis highly critized by the majority of historians specialist of Ottoman history, like Bernard Lewis, and authors who worked about the 1915-1916 events, like Guenter Lewy; — A one-sided thesis, who forgott the massacres perpetrated by Armenian gangs, especially between 1914 and 1922 (see the archeological evidence of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Acsn-De8vCQ); — A tool of Russia for divide NATO and European Union; — A way for nationalist Armenian parties (Dashnak, Hunchak, Ramkavar) to control millions of peoples, who should not be called "Armenians", but Americans, Frenchs or Australians; — A way of demonization of the whole Turkish people, called "Turco-Mongol killers" by many Armenian activists.
Lucrece 2009-03-12
"Yes, a large number of Western students of Ottoman history reject the appropriateness of the genocide label for the tragic fate of the Armenian community in Ottoman Turkey. This list includes distinguished scholars such as Roderic Davison, J.C. Hurewitz, Bernard Lewis, and Andrew Mango. Ignoring this formidable array of learned opinion, most Armenians and their supporters among so-called genocide scholars assert with superb arrogance that the Armenian genocide is an incontrovertible historical fact, similar to the Jewish Holocaust, which would be denied only by lackeys of the Turkish government." Guenter Lewy, professor emeritus of Political Science at Massachusetts Universiy (Amherst), "The Middle East Quarterly", Winter 2006.
Informed_American 2009-03-12
Yes, supporters of this legislation confuse the Legislative function of government with the Judicial function. Courts -not legislators- decide matters of criminal guilt. It must be this way because duly established courts follow RULES OF EVIDENCE which have been developed down through the centuries for the explicit purpose of blocking the activities of individuals who have some kind of hidden agenda. We must insist that Armenians who support this legislation bring their evidence before a duly established court and not permit them to continue pressuring our legislators to pass legislation about issues of which they are scantily informed. If it were true that the evidence of "genocide" was so firmly established why is it that there is such a long list of reputable, qualified Western Historians who reject the "genocide" label for these events? We must demand that Armenians stop the Libel, Slander and Defamation of an entire government and people -calling them "Genocide Deniers"- and insist they produce their proof in a proper and duly-established governmental institution or forum!
Ergun Kirlikovali 2009-03-12
BIAS & BIGOTRY IN THE TERM “ARMENIAN GENCOIDE” If one cherishes values like fairness, objectivity, truth, and honesty, then one should really use the term “Turkish-Armenian conflict”. Asking one “Do you accept or deny Armenian Genocide” shows anti-Turkish bias. The question should be re-phrased “What is your stand on the Turkish-Armenian conflict?” Turks believe it was an inter communal warfare mostly fought by Turkish and Armenian irregulars, a civil war which is engineered, provoked, and waged by the Armenian revolutionaries, with active support from Russia, England, France, and others, all eyeing the vast territories of the collapsing Ottoman Empire, against a backdrop of a raging world war. Armenian, on the other hand, ignoring Armenian agitation, raids, rebellions, treason, territorial demands, and Turkish victims killed by Armenians, claim that it was a one way genocide.
Ergun Kirlikovali 2009-03-12
GENOCIDE ALLEGATIONS IGNORE “THE SIX T’S OF THE TURKISH-ARMENIAN CONFLICT” While some in unsuspecting public may be forgiven for taking the blatant and ceaseless Armenian propaganda at face value and believing Armenian falsifications merely because they are repeated so often, it is difficult and painful for someone like me, the son of Turkish survivors on both maternal and paternal sides. Those seemingly endless “War years” of 1912-1922 brought wide-spread death and destruction on to all Ottoman citizens. No Turkish family was left touched, mine included. Those nameless, faceless Turkish victims are killed for a second time today with politically motivated and baseless charges of Armenian genocide.
Ergun Kirlikovali 2009-03-12
ALLEGATIONS OF ARMENIAN GENOCIDE ARE RACIST AND DISHONEST HISTORY They are racist because they ignore the Turkish dead: about 3 million during WWI; more than half a million of them at the hands of Armenian nationalists. And the allegations of Armenian genocide are dishonest because they simply dismiss “THE SIX T’S OF THE TURKISH-ARMENIAN CONFLICT”: 1) TUMULT (revolts) 2) TERRORISM 3) TREASON (Armenians joining the invading enemy armies) 4) TERRITORIAL DEMANDS (where Armenians were a minority) 5) TURKISH SUFFERING AND LOSSES (i.e. those caused by the Armenian nationalists) 6) TERESET (temporary resettlement) triggered by the first five T’s above and amply documented as such; not to be equated to the Armenian misrepresentations as genocide.)
ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI 2009-03-12
VERDICT WITHOUT DUE PROCESS AMOUNTS TO LYNCHING Those who take the Armenian “allegations” of genocide at face value seem to also ignore the following: 1- Genocide is a legal, technical term precisely defined by the U.N. 1948 convention. 2- Genocide verdict can only be given by a "competent court" after "due process" 3- For a genocide verdict, the accusers must prove “intent” at a competent court and after due process. This could never be done by the Armenians whose evidence is mostly hearsay and forgeries. 4) Such a "competent court" was never convened in the case of Turkish-Armenian conflict and a genocide verdict does not exist.5- Genocide claim is political, not historical or factual. It reflects bias against Turks. Therefore, the term genocide must be used with the qualifier "alleged", for scholarly objectivity and truth.
Paul Summers 2009-03-12
You Genocide Deniers are incredible. 22 nations, most of them WORLD CLASS NATIONS, have accepted the Armenian Genocide (Including Russia, France, Germany, Switzerland, etc etc). 42 of 50 states in the US have accepted it. The European Parliament has accepted it. What you are proposing when you say that the USA should not accept the Armenian Genocide is that we remain behind all these other nations, and we follow Turkey down the path of denial and lies.
Carl Stevens 2009-03-12
It's so unfortunate that there are still some people that deny this crime against humanity. Turkey would hold such a higher place in society if it came to terms with its past and acknowledged the Armenian Genocide. Why is it that all those people disappeared? Why is it that all the Armenian land was lost? Why is that Deutche Bank and NY Life were sued? You can't invent 1.5 milliion dead people.
Lazarus Bey 2009-03-13
Actually, it can be argued that the Armenian Genocide was far more 'successful' than the Holocaust. The Armenian population of Anatolia was COMPLETELY decimated or exiled, and traces of their culture are being destroyed to this day (Churches, monasteries, cemeteries, art, etc -- And prominent Armenian journalist Hrant Dink was assassinated in 2007 for discussing the Genocide). Unlike the Holocaust, the Armenian Genocide is ongoing, with further destruction and denial being the primary policy of successive Turkish Governments. Shame on Turkey, and shame on our government for outsourcing our morality to a second-world, fascist, racist, anti-Semitic country. Anatolia was home to early Christianity... where are the Christians now? Meanwhile Europe and the US continue to welcome Turkish immigrants, while the handful of Jews and Christians remaining in Turkey are held hostage and are harassed every day. Shame on you, Turkey!
Mark 2009-03-13
Does our representatives base their decision on who speaks the loudest and pays the most OR after scholarly research into the BACKGROUND and the FACTS of events from 1870s to 1920s? Do we expect our congress and other nations to recognize a GENOCIDE against the NATIVE AMERICANS? Should I give my home to the native American knocking at my door, whose ancestors used to "own" the land that my beautiful home sits on?
Lynn 2009-03-13
Dear Mark, Nancy Pelosi, Pallone, Schiff and all the other politicians who've been purchased by the Armenian "genocide" industry should be made to give their homes so as to not appear to be hypocrits. Next, they should be required to take a course in the history of the Caucasus and middle east leading up to WWI. Armenians began massacring and murdering civilian Ottoman Muslims and Jews in an effort to ethnically cleanse eastern Anatolia of all but ethnic Armenians long before 1914. In fact, Armenian terrorist bands began their massacres in the 1870s, culminating in the mass rebellions against Ottoman civilians during WWI.
Ergun Kirlikovali 2009-03-13
ARMENIAN PROPAGANDISTS intimidate the politicians into accepting their version of history, laced with faslficiations, embellishments, hearsay, and lies. Proper venue to resolve controversial history is not polticial bodies, but "competent tribunal" as the 1948 UN Convention dictates. Genocide verdict does not exist; it is a political charge which cannot be substantiated with honest history. I believe all honorable citizens have a responsibility to ensure that the public is given a fair chance to hear all sides of a controversy and that “partisan accounts” are not promoted as “settled history”. I coined a new term back in 2003, my humble gift to the English language, to describe the stance of the Armenian-funded genocide industyr vis-à-vis the Turkish-Armenian conflict: “ETHOCIDE”, a brief definition of which is “deliberate and systematic extermination of ethics via malicious mass deception for political and other benefits.” 22 countrties and 40+ states which take Armenian claims at face value are engaged in an ethocidal coverage of a controversy after being manipulated and intimidated by Armenians.
Lucrece 2009-03-13
"have accepted the Armenian Genocide (Including Russia, France, Germany, Switzerland, etc etc). 42 of 50 states in the US have accepted it. The European Parliament has accepted it." The Germany accepted never to use the word "genocide". In Switzerland, only one of the two Chambers accepted the "genocide" resolution. Russia is a corrupted dictatorship, who supports Armenian claims, and even manipulates Armenian nationalists, by pure interest. In France, the "recognition" was voted by around 50 deputies (among 550), including 40 members elected thanks to Armenian associations. The Senators refused to vote the "recognition" during two years, but were forced by a hate campaign, until the limit of physical threats. Anyway, history is not the business of politicians. The countries where history is written by politicians are ordinary totalitarian countries.
Oguzhan 2009-03-14
I am saddened to see some politicians trying to legislate history just to get some votes. What is the real purpose behind this? Why don't they support Turkish government's proposal to form an independent committee of historians to study the archives of Armenia and Turkey. Why is Armenia is refusing to open their archives, while the archives in Turkey is open to everyone to examine and study? I am sure anyone who can examine this issue objectively, without a hidden agenda, can use their common sense and say to themselves if there was a genocide to recognize the party who is making the accusation would not refuse to put forth the evidence !
Sonya 2009-03-18
Hello everyone! I am armenian-american born in Istanbul, Turkey. My parents emigrated to US when I was 19. I really had a wonderful childhood and good memories of Turkey and Turkish people. I feel emberassed whenever I read this genocide nonsense in the press. I know this is probably all about the politics and not true. I can say this because I know Turks! They are honestly the most generous people I've ever met. I will never forget my 19 years and I would love to go back if my husband came with me.
Erdal Firinci 2009-03-21
If Armenians are so sure of their claims then they should particpate in a public debate with Turks, both sides supported by experts and scholars, and argue their case in public. Turks are ready for this but why are the Armenians shying away? Any honourable person would agree to debate their case in a unbiased public court (or legal court) and prove their case. Armenians failed to prove their case for more than 90 years and also mathematics of their claims just do not add up!!.. if all the Armenians were decimated in 1915, how come there are nearly 8 million Armenians in the world today.. as one of the writers claim above that he/she survived because she was on holiday with her grandma at that time, does that mean a lot of Armenians were on holiday at that time too?.. The truth is Armenians 'knifed' Ottomans on the back (see Turko-Russian wars) and when they were cleared off Anatolia, because of their treachery, on an organised re-location called 'techir' but most came back after the WW1 (in some cases Ottomans even paid for their return fare) only to emigrate out of Ottoman lands to go to US, South America etc.. In all honesty, if a person or a group is not willing to prove their case under public or legal debate conditions then they must be fabricating their story for ulterior motives..let Armenians prove themselves instead of shedding crocodile tears my friends.. Let them accept the challenge as any honourable person would do! Erdal Firinci CPTR Swansea-Wales United Kingdom
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2 comments:
Can "any US representative" answer below DOCUMENTED questions? Let authentic
"documents speak! Not this or that person"!
Ref:
armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/11/2187-book-excerpts-pastermadjians-why.html
CAN YOU NOT READ THE ACTS OF TREASON - REVOLUTION and PHOTOS?
Ref:
armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2008/06/2512-free-e-book-armenian-question.html
CAN YOU DENY VARIOUS ACTS OF BRAVERY OR TREASON ASKING HALF OF TURKEY -cleaned of Non-Christians ?
What other proof can you ask to evidence fulls-scale treason and internal war?
Question: If 1.5 million were killed, who was going to populate this huge piece of land between two seas?
Ref:
armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2008/02/2335-free-e-book-near-east-relief.html
In as far this final report 31.12.1921 does not mention Turkish massacres and says that
1.414.000 Armenians were alive at that date,
who is WRONG or LYING?
The committee and joint US Congress-Senate which approved it on 22.04.1922 or Schiff-Pallone and the Genocide Fanfare?
Is Schiff or present Congress going
to announce that resolution 22.04.1922 is VOID-INVALID?
If not, how they can say that 1.5 million persons were killed (when,where,how, why,corpses,murder tools, neutral eye witnesses, documents, legal investigation, court decision NON EXISTING!)?
Were they incarnated so fast?
I want to know, who is lying!
I demand a LOGICAL EXPLANATION!
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In this connection, The Armenian side is shying away from a historical debate leading to a legal conclusion. Indeed, they should be forced into it by the American Congress if we speak about fairness..
Without a historical backdrop and a scholarly debate on facts rather than fiction or folklore, any resolution passed by the Congress shall be tantamount to blatant racism against the Turks.
Also ask yourselves a simple question..
what about the actions of Americans against Red Indians, Germans against Herero in Namibia, Belgians against Congo natives, British against Aborigines in Australia and countless others..
Is the Congress going to deal with these issues also or is the matter only applicable to Muslim states?
In hope of a fair world.
Erdal Firinci
Swansea
Wales - UK
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